S10.E14: The Executioner's Song

[catrox14]

Back in s9 , Sam was researching Cain and Abel on his laptop which was never talked about, which btw, drove me bonkers because I thought that was why Sam was always so skittish around Dean and I thought that had something to do with why Sam distanced himself beyond the Gadreel thing...but that was just my head!canon.

[AwesomO4000]

It's perfectly reasonable head!canon, because yeah, Sam unfortunately knows how Lucifer works and would / should be concerned that Dean has a mark that is linked with him.

[supposebly]

That would be interesting. I just kinda doubt the writers really remember much that happened more than a year or two ago.

[catrox14]

Lucifer was mentioned in First Born and I don't think they'll ignore that.  They might ignore Adam but I don't think they named dropped Lucifer for no reason.  And just because it's bugging me to no end why Dean hasn't been affected by killing Cain and why I don't think Dean could have killed Cain without the power of the Mark I went back to read what Cain said in First Born...and now I'm really bugged LOL. 

 

CAIN:From Lucifer himself. The mark and the blade work together. Without the mark, the blade is useless. It's just an old bone.

CROWLEY:A bone?

DEAN:The jawbone of an animal. The jawbone you used to kill Abel because he was God's favorite.

CAIN: Abel wasn't talking to God. He was talking to Lucifer. Lucifer was gonna make my brother into his pet. I couldn't bear to watch him be corrupted, so I offered a deal -- Abel's soul in heaven for my soul in hell.

Lucifer accepted... As long as I was the one who sent Abel to heaven. So, I killed him. Became a soldier

of Hell -- a knight.

DEAN:And Lucifer ordered you to make more.

Edited March 5, 2015 by catrox14

[supposebly]

 

They might ignore Adam but I don't think they named dropped Lucifer for no reason.

You are a lot more optimistic than I am at this point. I'm very pessimistic that they remember that Sam is probably the one who knows Lucifer best. They barely remembered that Meg possessed Sam when they had him confide in her about the Amelia business. Apparently, it's no big deal any more that Crowley killed Sarah if you can let him go after they Dean killed Abbadon.

 

This whole Mark of Cain business and its effects or the absence thereof seems even less logical than the demon blood effects that were there (causing superpowers and visions up to AHBL), then gone in season 3 (because Sam was dead for a day?), addictive(as played in Good God, and Valentine and few more times I repress), then caused demon killing powers necessary to kill demons such as Alastair and Lilith, then apparently not (Ruby in Lucifer Raising), then again, they were necessary to contain Lucifer. Apparently, Dean was awesome enough to contain Michael without demon blood while Sam was supposed to drink it to contain Lucifer, Michael's brother. Shouldn't they both be equally difficult (because they are the biggest archangels) or easy (because of the Winchester's density) to contain?

 

Getting back to the mark business: So, I still don't understand how Cain was still so powerful after he passed on the mark. Or did he still have one? Did he make knights of hell by passing on the mark? Did Abaddon have the mark too? Is Dean a knight of hell? Can you really just survive with the mark once you are a demon? Then why did we never see Cain with black eyes? Or did we and I forgot? If Dean hadn't fed the mark while he was a demon, would he have disintegrated or thrown up his insides out? Or would he have just gone feral since he had the blade?

What if Crowley had taken the blade away from him while he was a demon (assuming he could), would Dean have died? Did Cain survive for so long because the blade was far, far away? How did he? If DemonDean had not been around the blade, could he have gone beekeeping and karaoking for all eternity?

I feel I have no handle on this business at all.

[ohjoy]

I feel I have no handle on this business at all.

That second "I" stands for "the writers", correct? ;-)

Edited March 5, 2015 by RandomMe

[supposebly]

 

That second "I" stands for "the writers", correct? ;-)

Well, I don't always want to be the one who thinks the writers have lost it. But I include myself. IF there is a coherence and a logic, I might be too dense to get it. Always a possibility.

 

But, yeah....

[SueB]

Getting back to the mark business: So, I still don't understand how Cain was still so powerful after he passed on the mark. Or did he still have one? Did he make knights of hell by passing on the mark? Did Abaddon have the mark too? Is Dean a knight of hell? Can you really just survive with the mark once you are a demon? Then why did we never see Cain with black eyes? Or did we and I forgot? If Dean hadn't fed the mark while he was a demon, would he have disintegrated or thrown up his insides out? Or would he have just gone feral since he had the blade?

What if Crowley had taken the blade away from him while he was a demon (assuming he could), would Dean have died? Did Cain survive for so long because the blade was far, far away? How did he? If DemonDean had not been around the blade, could he have gone beekeeping and karaoking for all eternity?

I feel I have no handle on this business at all.

I think they have answered some of these questions. Perhaps not clearly but here's the stuff they've at least stated or showed:

Cain's power vs others - he's not a disembodied soul possessing a meatsuit, he became a demon in his own body. He was first a human with the Mark but committed suicide as the bloodlust got too powerful. He committed suicide with the blade and the Mark resurrected him as a demon. (9.23)So it would appear the branding of his body with Lucifer's Mark is what essentially made him immortal. How the rest of his powers (beyond super healing) developed, they don't say. But he teleported, smited demons, was telekinetic, immune to the demon blade, and hella-strong. And immortal in his own meatsuit. It's implied that regular demons can keep going indefinitely. I'm pretty sure Dean as a demon was immortal. I think he kinda is now (cause if the Mark won't let him die, then if he gets killed afain, he'll be back to demon)

Abbadon did not have the Mark. She was a regular demon in that she needed a meatsuit. OTOH, you couldn't kill her except with the First Blade. They didn't explain how Cain 'made' these Knights.

Dean told Marie in Fan Fiction that not only did he become a demon, he became a Knight of Hell.

Crowley is the one who said a human body couldn't handle the Mark, evidence by both Cain (pre-suicide) and Dean, but a demon could.

In 10.1 and 10.2 Dean acknowledged that if he didn't kill (as a demon), he got antsy and his eyes were black. I think it's was also implied he went more feral without occasionally killing.

In the alleyway in 10.10, Crowley said the Blade fueled Dean's bloodlust. Which is consistent with how Dean shook every time he reached for it. Interested enough, he seemed less shakey and more in control.

Cain also seemed jazzed by the Blade and heavily implied that getting rid of the Blade helped him keep his commitment to Colette. And it was Colettes love (per First Born) that allowed his to have the strength of character to resist killing.

So, in sum, Cain was immortal due to the Mark resurrecting him as a demon. Staying away from the Blade helped him to stay in control.

Dean, thus far, is showing more control as time goes by but is avoiding the Blade to avoid the bloodlust.

Edited March 6, 2015 by SueB

[catrox14]

I remember him saying that and me thinking..."wait, you asshole writers! You can't have Dean himself say he was a Knight of Hell and not show him actually on screen being a Knight of Hell using the same kind of powers as Cain".  I was pissed off.  So my head!canon became that Dean was just puffing it up so that his time as a demon was more meaningful than just sleeping around and killing the Lesters of the world. I know if I had been turned into a demon, I would rather be a Knight of Hell than a standard boring demon.

[SueB]

Well Dean had the super healing powers, that's Knight of Hell class skill.

[catrox14]

Well Dean had the super healing powers, that's Knight of Hell class skill.

 

Whilst regular demons don't self heal like he could, they can only be killed by a demon blade or exorcised. They keep coming back again and again in the same meatsuits. Regular demons have teleportation powers and could fling people across roomswith the flick of wrist etc.  If Dean was going to really most sincerely die and come back a demon, I need to see his powers to smite people out of existence and teleport.  Self healing is pretty meh on that scale IMO and is not necessarily only a Knight of Hell skill. 

Edited March 6, 2015 by catrox14

[SueB]

I think Dean, even though he was trying to sell "don't give a shit" 'tude, was doing everything to stay in control.  So I think he did not remotely explore his skills.

[catrox14]

I think Dean, even though he was trying to sell "don't give a shit" 'tude, was doing everything to stay in control.  So I think he did not remotely explore his skills.

Regardless of why it wasn't explored, it's unsatisfactory for this viewer.

[AwesomO4000]

Whilst regular demons don't self heal like he could, they can only be killed by a demon blade or exorcised. They keep coming back again and again in the same meatsuits. Regular demons have teleportation powers and could fling people across roomswith the flick of wrist etc.  If Dean was going to really most sincerely die and come back a demon, I need to see his powers to smite people out of existence and teleport.  Self healing is pretty meh on that scale IMO and is not necessarily only a Knight of Hell skill. 

 

No, but to me it actually points to Knight of Hell skill more than others, because it is more of an angel skill * which seems to imply that the power came from Lucifer... i.e.  Knight of Hell. And it sure would be useful in a fight with any kind of strong entity or other demon. And we also don't know if Dean could be killed with the demon blade when he is in demon form... maybe that's one of the reasons that he wasn't worried about Sam putting the demon blade to his throat, because he apparently still had some demon in him at the time. It was also shown that Dean had some telekinetic powers even before he became a demon, so I would assume he'd also have those as a demon. (Not sure why they didn't show that more often - likely because Dean always kept the blade on his person while he was a demon).

 

I'm also not clear on the teleportation thing. It seems to be implied that in most cases, if a regular demon is summoned, they have to come, and some of their teleportation skills are geared towards that. It might've been cool to show Dean teleporting, but we also know that he generally hates that kind of travel - similar to "Angel Air" - and so would prefer travel in his Baby.

 

And true they didn't show Dean flinging people around - though it might take a demon time to learn that, I don't know. It didn't seem that all demons do it. But they did show Dean easily pushing Crowley down, and considering that Crowley was the King of Hell and didn't think he could fight back against Dean or even try to fling Dean around said to me that Dean was likely pretty powerful - enough that Crowley didn't want to risk further confrontation.

 

But I can also see why you would want to see those kinds of things. I think in the end, maybe they wimped out and were afraid to show Dean that gone and/or dark. Whenever Sam was shown doing things like that - even if the results were good - it was always portrayed as a very bad thing and that Sam was losing control. It also usually resulted in Sam harming himself (blood dripping from his nose, head pain) or losing his abilities entirely. After Sam killed Lilith, despite his eyes supposedly going black, Sam afterwards was completely powerless. Which would seem to imply that using powers like that takes a toll and/or has a limit.

 

* Leviathan also seem to have it, and they were pretty powerful also.

[catrox14]

Dean's only power was Jedi'ing the Blade into his hand. And that seemed to be more of a function of the Mark's attachment to the Blade. He didn't Jedi it back into his hand when he was fighting Cain. So who knows if he even has that power anymore.

My beef is that as someone who was destroyed when Dean became a demon, I wanted it to mean something beyond fighting and drinking and sleeping around. It's the same old thing of telling and not showing and even the telling is so unclear we all end up theorizing and fanwanking and head!canoning to make sense of it.

I'm just grumpy about it all. LOL

ETA: I didn't think Dean pushing Crowley was about Dean's strength but more about Dean showing his teeth to Crowley that he wasn't going to be his minion. IMO Crowley could have done something to Dean if he wanted to but I think Crowley just opted out rather than fight Dean. IMO if Crowley would have tried to fight Dean in front of his minions that would have done more harm to Crowley's rep than just walking away from Dean.

Edited March 6, 2015 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

ETA: I didn't think Dean pushing Crowley was about Dean's strength but more about Dean showing his teeth to Crowley that he wasn't going to be his minion. IMO Crowley could have done something to Dean if he wanted to but I think Crowley just opted out rather than fight Dean. IMO if Crowley would have tried to fight Dean in front of his minions that would have done more harm to Crowley's rep than just walking away from Dean.

 

Maybe, but it seemed that some of his minions thought he was a wimp for letting Dean push him around (and I think I remember one of them smiling). Some of them definitely thought he was getting "soft" by paling around with Dean, so I'm not exactly sure it was helpful to his reputation to let Dean's pushing him go. Considering how demons are I'm not sure that was exactly a show of strength in their eyes. By not standing up to Dean, Crowley seemed to be conceding that he wouldn't easily win a fight with him, and to his minions that may have looked like a sign of weakness rather than a strength unlike with people where often walking away from a fight would be the stronger thing to do. But these aren't humans: they're demons. Different rules of engagement and social interaction apply. What the minions saw was Dean defying Crowley, then gloating about it and asserting his dominance over Crowley first physically - by shoving him easily to the floor - to which Crowley hurls insults, and then Dean asserts his dominance verbally as Dean defies Crowley again, basically challenges him to try to make him follow orders, and if that's not bad enough when Crowley backs down from the fight, Dean basically brushes Crowley's insults off with "yeah, whatever, I'll call you when I need you. Until then buh bye."

 

I may need to watch the scene again to see Crowley's facial expressions, but for the most part, I can't imagine how Crowley could've looked much worse to his minions, unless Dean would have beat him in a physical confrontation, and Crowley knew he would. And that was how I took the interaction: that Crowley knew he'd lose - or at least get very roughed up - in a physical fight with Dean, so therefore he had no choice but to take what Dean was dishing out and then basically say "yeah, well I didn't like you anyway," and walk off with his tail between his legs. If you do that to the King of Hell, in my opinion, you've got to be one BAMF of a dude and the King of Hell's got to know it.

[catrox14]

I dunno, to me Crowley doesn't really care what his minions think. He's going to do what he wants to do. He's still the King of Hell. He's still the worst m'fer in Hell. He's just more polite than most. He smites minions with a snap of his fingers. He sends them off to be tortured if he wants. He keeps them chained up for ever or standing in line in the DMV for all eternity.  The minions are still terrified of Crowley for the most part. IMO  Crowley not doing anything to do Dean showed restraint and showed that Crowley didn't think Dean was worth even bothering with anymore to his minions anyway. When he saw his minion laugh at him, his glare wiped that smile right off the minion's face. 

[AwesomO4000]

When he saw his minion laugh at him, his glare wiped that smile right off the minion's face.

 

True. I guess it might not have seemed so bad to me if Dean hadn't sent him flat on his face with that shove. Letting Dean go may in the end end up biting him in the ass though, especially now that he's killed Cain.

 

I dunno, to me Crowley doesn't really care what his minions think.

 

This is probably true also. And it's why I'm hoping that Crowley has some sort of long-con with his mother, because believing that he would be so affected by her after all this time - 300 years of so earth time, who knows how long hell time - just seems off to me.

 

I think I need to watch that entire episode and interaction again. Crowley and Dean have a weird and complex dynamic going on I don't think I entirely understand.

 

And if after this, Dean starts heading towards becoming a demon again, I'm not sure how Crowley is going to feel about that after learning the first time that he can't quite control Dean the way he hoped that he would.

[SueB]

Dean had the First Blade in that confrontation with Crowley. Abbadon couldn't keep Dean with the Blade pinned to the wall. And he was a human then. Plus Crowley had to have Dean kill Abbadon for him. I'm pretty sure Dean with the First Blade is more powerful than Crowley. And I think Rowena made that clear too.

But I also agree, it's been mostly tell vs show. So I agree they wasted a chance to show Dean with powers. I think the narrative rationale was to show that Dean didn't really give a shit about power. I think it's kind of a ' Bilbo and the Ring' vibe. It's why Dean might be able to beat the Mark's effect and retain control of his own mind.

Edited March 6, 2015 by SueB

[dragonsbite]

Wait wait wait wait WAIT!

Y'all have continued to discuss Dean and the Blade and his understanding of the blade from what Cain told him. But you need to reread the last part of catrox14' quote from First Born.
 

CAIN: Abel wasn't talking to God. He was talking to Lucifer. Lucifer was gonna make my brother into his pet. I couldn't bear to watch him be corrupted, so I offered a deal -- Abel's soul in heaven for my soul in hell.
Lucifer accepted... As long as I was the one who sent Abel to heaven. So, I killed him. Became a soldier
of Hell -- a knight.

 

If Dean just killed Cain, then Cain went to Hell. Um, who in Hell would be strong enough to oppose him? Is it possible that Cain could push Crowley out? Does Cain still have the Mark in Hell?

Edited March 6, 2015 by dragonsbite

[catrox14]

Wait wait wait wait WAIT!

Y'all have continued to discuss Dean and the Blade and his understanding of the blade from what Cain told him. But you need to reread the last part of catrox14' quote from First Born.

 

If Dean just killed Cain, then Cain went to Hell. Um, who in Hell would be strong enough to oppose him? Is it possible that Cain could push Crowley out? Does Cain still have the Mark in Hell?

 

 

LOL at your wait wait WAIT! I totally pictured you with flailing arms! 

 

But that's a really excellent question.  Where did Cain go???  Could Cain have wanted Dean to kill him so he could go back to Hell to take on Lucifer himself to help Dean and fight Crowley? Could it end up being Dean and Cain ruling Hell? Oh man. Great question!

[DittyDotDot]

Shouldn't Cain be dead dead now...like when demons get stabbed with the knife?

[trxr4kids]

If he was killed wouldn't he just be gone, like killing with the colt or the demon knife, no afterlife just oblivion?

[catrox14]

Shouldn't Cain be dead dead now...like when demons get stabbed with the knife?

 

 

I thought when demons are dead dead their soul stills goes back to Hell and lives in eternal torment there with no escape or death. Unless they get a "Get Out of Hell Free" card from Crowley?

Edited March 6, 2015 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

Hmm, I never got that impression. I thought they were sincerely dead. Like gone to oblivion. Just like when angels get stabbed with the angel blade. If their souls just get returned to Hell, what's to stop them from crawling back out of Hell? Yellow Eyes, Lilith, Alistair are sitting in Hell being tormented? Seems rather redundant since that's how they became demons in the first place.

[catrox14]

Hmm, I never got that impression. I thought they were sincerely dead. Like gone to oblivion. Just like when angels get stabbed with the angel blade. If their souls just get returned to Hell, what's to stop them from crawling back out of Hell? Yellow Eyes, Lilith, Alistair are sitting in Hell being tormented? Seems rather redundant since that's how they became demons in the first place.

 

It's eternal torment without benefit of becoming a demon is what I'm thinking. That seems like a much worse fate than oblivion.  But I don't really know either way. I thought when angels died they just went back to Heaven like a human soul.  Never to be an angel again. In SPNverse human souls don't become angels in Heaven do they?

[SueB]

As Cas would say, it represents an interesting curl in the metaphysics. Where to demons go when they get killed by a weapon designed to eliminate, vice exorcise, the demon?  Same goes for Angels killed by Angel Blades.

 

Personally I think God lets them go poof and it adds more entropy to the universe. 

 

 

In SPNverse human souls don't become angels in Heaven do they?

In SPNverse, Angels are definitively NOT human.  They are non-corporal sentient creatures that were created before man (but after Leviathans). 

Edited March 6, 2015 by SueB

[trxr4kids]

 I thought they were sincerely dead. Like gone to oblivion. Just like when angels get stabbed with the angel blade. If their souls just get returned to Hell, what's to stop them from crawling back out of Hell? Yellow Eyes, Lilith, Alistair are sitting in Hell being tormented? Seems rather redundant since that's how they became demons in the first place.

I agree, if stabbing with the knife just returns a demon to hell so would an exorcism without killing the host if they were still alive. That would mean that Sam and Dean are just in too big a hurry to save people so stabbing it is.

[DittyDotDot]

It's eternal torment without benefit of becoming a demon is what I'm thinking. That seems like a much worse fate than oblivion.  But I don't really know either way. I thought when angels died they just went back to Heaven like a human soul.  Never to be an angel again. In SPNverse human souls don't become angels in Heaven do they?

 

As far as I know, angels don't have souls and I don't think humans can become angels...they're totally different species, was my understanding. I'm not saying it wouldn't be a worse fate to continue to be tortured for eternity, but doesn't seem like it fits my understanding of the show either. If stabbing them with the demon knife does nothing more than exorcising them, then there's no real point in using the demon knife, if you ask me. Not only would they be able to save the host, but the main reason they've taken to stabbing them is so no one could go running to the boss and such. Also, I just can't wrap my head around the idea Yellow Eyes is just sitting in Hell all these years.

[dragonsbite]

Cain never said that he was a demon. Simply a "soldier of hell." If Cain had never died, then he wasn't a demon...until killed by the Blade.

 

 

ETA:

LOL at your wait wait WAIT! I totally pictured you with flailing arms!

 

 

Why yes. Yes, they were.

Edited March 6, 2015 by dragonsbite

[catrox14]

As Cas would say, it represents an interesting curl in the metaphysics. Where to demons go when they get killed by a weapon designed to eliminate, vice exorcise, the demon?  Same goes for Angels killed by Angel Blades.

 

Personally I think God lets them go poof and it adds more entropy to the universe. 

 

In SPNverse, Angels are definitively NOT human.  They are non-corporal sentient creatures that were created before man (but after Leviathans). 

 

 

Yes I know the angels like Castiel are not human but I was asking if the humans that die become angels. Or do they just float around Heaven as a corporeal being or a ghost or what?

[DittyDotDot]

Cain never said that he was a demon. Simply a "soldier of hell." If Cain had never died, then he wasn't a demon...until killed by the Blade.

 

I'm pretty sure he did say he was a demon later in the episode. Also, Crowley's little speech over Dean in Do You Believe In Miracles stated that Cain became a demon after he killed himself because he didn't like what the Mark was turning him into. Pretty much how Dean became a demon.

 

Yes I know the angels like Castiel are not human but I was asking if the humans that die become angels. Or do they just float around Heaven as a corporeal being or a ghost or what?

 

My understanding is the souls just float around up there. That's what powers Heaven, just as the Hell-bound souls power Hell. Angels were created before humans, so I don't think human souls can become angels.

[catrox14]

They said Cain was a demon.

 

CROWLEY: Well, after Cain killed Abel, he became a demon.

DEAN:What do you mean "became a demon"?

CROWLEY:I mean he became the deadliest demon to walk the face of the earth. Killed thousands. The best at being the worst. And then he just... Disappeared. Everyone thought he was dead or, at least, hoped he was.

 

then later

 

CAIN: If your friend here could talk, he would tell you that I trained the Knights of Hell. I built that entire demonic order with my own hands -- Abaddon included.

 

then in 9.23

 

DEAN: So dead? Well, Cain had the mark. He didn't die.

CROWLEY: Cain was a demon. Your body's not strong enough to contain the blade's power.

 

Crowley doesn't lie. He obfuscates and misleads but he doesn't outright lie. 

 

Plus in this episode he was held by a Devil's Trap. I think it's fair to say Cain is a demon

[dragonsbite]

Yeah, I seemed to have forgotten that part about Cain's demonhood.  Damn, my argument gone to Hell.

[supposebly]

Soooo, does anyone know or remember, did Cain lose the Mark when it transferred to Dean? If so, that means you can survive passing on the mark and but need to be killed if you are a demon at that point?

Soooo, if Dean for example passes on the Mark to Adam (yes I think that would be a cool twist) while being a demon he would remain a demon and would need to be killed?

If he passes it on, he remains human?

 

Or maybe it's the manner of how you lose the mark without passing it on? Assuming this is at all possible.

 

How about giving it back to Lucifer? Overall, everything is really is his fault. Lilith, Cain...really. Maybe we need to open that damn cage again.......

[catrox14]

IIRC, there was a glimpse of Cain's arm right before Cain killed the demons and I think Mark was activated.  I'm pretty sure Cain kept the Mark and copied it over to Dean. It would also make sense for Cain to keep so he could created the Knights of Hell from his Mark. 

[trxr4kids]

If they did bring back Lucifer or even go to the cage to talk to him, who would play him, I wonder. Mark Pelligrino wouldn't make sense really because when he fell he was in Sam and I thought Nick burned out. JP wouldn't make sense either because he's not currently Lucifer. So how would they deal with him being in true form, maybe special glasses like for hellhound viewing?

[supposebly]

It could be a nightmare vision depending on who would go see him. If it's Dean who pays a visit, it could be whatever nightmare vision he could come up. Or rather Lucifer could come up with to scare the hell out of Dean.

 

It's a total retcon but at this time, I wouldn't put it past them and I might not even be annoyed that season 5 would basically be negated that way. Somehow, this seems an interesting prospect. I might be going crazy too. I've had a rash on my left arm since yesterday.

[rue721]

It could be a nightmare vision depending on who would go see him. If it's Dean who pays a visit, it could be whatever nightmare vision he could come up. Or rather Lucifer could come up with to scare the hell out of Dean.

 

I think Lucifer could appear however he'd want to, since he wouldn't be in a vessel. When he was trying to get Nick to give him permission to possess him, he looked like Nick's dead wife. He apparently still looked like Nick to Sam when he was tormenting Sam, since Sam's hellucinations were all of Lucifer-as-Nick.

 

Wouldn't Dean's nightmare vision be for Lucifer to look like Sam? Or maybe that would be old hat to Dean nowadays, post-S5. Who knows, maybe it would be for Lucifer to look like Dean!

[ohjoy]

Wouldn't Dean's nightmare vision be for Lucifer to look like Sam? Or maybe that would be old hat to Dean nowadays, post-S5. Who knows, maybe it would be for Lucifer to look like Dean!

I can totally see him as an hallucination using one form and then switching to the other, just for creepy effect. Thanks --  now I totally want to see Jensen and Jared play the same character in the same scene, opposite either Sam or Dean. That'd be fun.

 

 

I might be going crazy too. I've had a rash on my left arm since yesterday.

Hahahaha - so thankful I didn't have anything in my mouth when I saw that.

Edited March 6, 2015 by RandomMe

[supposebly]

 

Thanks --  now I totally want to see Jensen and Jared play the same character in the same scene, opposite either Sam or Dean.

 

That would be awesome!

[7kstar]

They said Cain was a demon.

 

CROWLEY: Well, after Cain killed Abel, he became a demon.

DEAN:What do you mean "became a demon"?

CROWLEY:I mean he became the deadliest demon to walk the face of the earth. Killed thousands. The best at being the worst. And then he just... Disappeared. Everyone thought he was dead or, at least, hoped he was.

 

then later

 

CAIN: If your friend here could talk, he would tell you that I trained the Knights of Hell. I built that entire demonic order with my own hands -- Abaddon included.

 

 

One question that isn't totally clear to me, I thought Cain made the other knights of hell without the mark.  My impression is on Dean and Cain have the mark.  So this bonds them in a way that he wouldn't bond with anyone else.

 

Now where did Cain go when he died?  Still wishing he's not gone because he's such a fun character. 

 

Of course it might be fun if Crowley was driving Dean and Sam a  little crazy by having so many Dean's and Sam's and neither could tell which one was the original. but trying to search for them only to find they'd been tricked again.  A warp version of What Naomi did with Cas trying to get him to kill Dean. 

 

It's your fault for making me think this crazy idea...or is it the kids....Boy do I need Spring Break....yeah an entire week off with no students.

[RileyMay]

It could be a nightmare vision depending on who would go see him. If it's Dean who pays a visit, it could be whatever nightmare vision he could come up. Or rather Lucifer could come up with to scare the hell out of Dean.

 

 

Wouldn't Dean's nightmare vision be for Lucifer to look like Sam? Or maybe that would be old hat to Dean nowadays, post-S5. Who knows, maybe it would be for Lucifer to look like Dean!

 

Never gonna happen but I think Dean's nightmare vision of Lucifer would be if he looked like John Winchester.

[rue721]

Never gonna happen but I think Dean's nightmare vision of Lucifer would be if he looked like John Winchester.

 

I think that would be really fun. But I feel like a broken record about wanting them to bring John back :P

[catrox14]

Seems like Lucifer could still be Mark Pellegrino. Can't he just reconstitute his meatsuit like Anna did?

[rue721]

Seems like Lucifer could still be Mark Pellegrino. Can't he just reconstitute his meatsuit like Anna did?

 

Yeah, I think he could. But I don't think Nick/Mark Pellegrino is the most fun possibility for how Lucifer could appear, in terms of messing with Dean or Sam's heads.

[catrox14]

I dunno. He fucked with Sam pretty well and when Sam was his meatsuit it messed up Dean.

[rue721]

I dunno. He fucked with Sam pretty well and when Sam was his meatsuit it messed up Dean.

 

True. But ideally, wouldn't Lucifer want to look like whoever his target trusts and misses/cares for most?

[catrox14]

I don't think so because Lucifer already got into both their heads. Dean is a demon essentially because of Lucifer and Sam was in Hell for 100 years because of Lucifer.  This is Dean and Sam going after Lucifer not vice versa.  Now Lucifer might wear a different meatsuit to hide from Sam and Dean but I can't imagine him being afraid of them at all.

[rue721]

I don't think so because Lucifer already got into both their heads. Dean is a demon essentially because of Lucifer and Sam was in Hell for 100 years because of Lucifer.  This is Dean and Sam going after Lucifer not vice versa.  Now Lucifer might wear a different meatsuit to hide from Sam and Dean but I can't imagine him being afraid of them at all.

 

Taking this to the speculation thread.