S10.E14: The Executioner's Song

[AwesomO4000]

The whole idea of researching true crime being a hobby to someone whose profession involves researching monsters through newspaper/crime reports makes no sense. What's the difference between that hobby and his actual job?

 

I agree with Pete Martell on this one. Unless the serial killer is going to become a ghost - which coincidentally did happen that one time - it's more of a "hobby." A slightly dark one - which interesting there - but a hobby none-the-less. And could that whole thing be a call back to that early episode. I'd have to check, but I think it might have been Sam who knew about that serial killer's real name (Holmes, I think it was?)... in which case: nice continuity callback there.

 

(Personal example: I identify insects, but I do general taxonomy, so I rarely have to identify a critter to species. That's my job. But I also photograph and identify moths, and I often do that to species. I consider that one of my hobbies. It's work-adjacent, but not necessary for my actual job 98+% of the time - although it does on rare occasions come in useful if a homeowner finds a pretty moth and wants to know what it is.)

 

- Dean telling Sam, Castiel and Crowley that no matter what came out of that barn at the end of the fight, they were to take it out, along with the unspoken goodbyes and Sam's sad expression.  Yet when he came out, that was apparently completely forgotten about by everybody including him.  

- Sam telling Castiel that Dean is in trouble, even though he was sitting there at the table apparently able to carry on a coherent conversation without any difficulty.  I know they showed him being completely shell-shocked immediately after the fight, but I didn't really understand why he would have been, at least to that degree.  Physically beat up, yes; but why mentally?  And why was he practically begging Cain not to make him kill him?   Cain had been slaughtering people regardless of whether they deserved it, and it wasn't like he and Dean had ever had time to become best buddies.

 

I might be able to suggest an answer for some of these. For the first, did Dean say for sure to take out whatever came out or be ready to take out whatever came out? Meaning if he came out a crazy-rage-person that they had to be ready to take him out? I'll have to rewatch to see.

 

As for the second, it's because of the mark and what killing can do to it... and Dean is not out of the woods, which is why Sam thinks that Dean is in trouble. He might be seeing the signs. And this also explains why Dean was begging Cain not to make him kill him - as cassandle explained above. It seems that the mark can get super-powered after a big kill - like Abaddon - and in my opinion, Cain would qualify as a big kill. I don't think it started out full on bad right after Dean killed Abaddon - if I'm remembering correctly - so despite Sam trying to be hopeful, I think he's remembering what happened post-Abaddon, and he's worried. And I think Dean is shell-shocked, because he, too, might be worried whether the mark is going to now want more.

Edited February 18, 2015 by AwesomO4000

[cassandle]

As for the second, it's because of the mark and what killing can do to it... and Dean is not out of the woods, which is why Sam thinks that Dean is in trouble. He might be seeing the signs. And this also explains why Dean was begging Cain not to make him kill him - as cassandle explained above. It seems that the mark can get super-powered after a big kill - like Abaddon - and in my opinion, Cain would qualify as a big kill. I don't think it started out full on bad right after Dean killed Abaddon - if I'm remembering correctly - so despite Sam trying to be hopeful, I think he's remembering what happened post-Abaddon, and he's worried. And I think Dean is shell-shocked, because he, too, might be worried whether the mark is going to now want more.

 

I'll be curious to see if the fact that Cain let himself be killed makes a difference to how the Mark responds.  And since Dean wasn't giving it his all in the fight maybe he never crossed whatever line needed to be crossed to activate Evil!Dean.  Although, if that's the case I'm not sure how the rest of the season would go--that might be a little anticlimactic.  

[Rivka]

So we finally get acknowledgement that the Mark of Cain is going to go somewhere with the brother-killing.

I can't help wondering if the earlier mention of Adam in the season was some sort of breadcrumb, but that's probably giving Carver too much credit. Still, that might be one way to tie up some issues. Open up Lucy's cage, kill Adam to fulfill the Cain side of things. If Michael was free, he might be able to clean up the whole Heaven issue. And finally taking out Lucifer for good could wrap up their 11th and (hopefully) final season, and let the boys go out in a blaze of glory. We've already seen that Carver likes to repeat story lines; I wouldn't put it past him to borrow from a better season to repeat.

[Pete Martell]

I think the reasons given here about Dean not wanting to kill Cain are right, but I also think Dean didn't want to do it because he sees a lot of himself in Cain, even beyond Cain telling him he'd do all these terrible things. I think he saw some of the good too. I think if he killed Cain, he was also killing himself.

[Demented Daisy]

I agree with Pete Martell on this one. Unless the serial killer is going to become a ghost - which coincidentally did happen that one time - it's more of a "hobby." A slightly dark one - which interesting there - but a hobby none-the-less. And could that whole thing be a call back to that early episode. I'd have to check, but I think it might have been Sam who knew about that serial killer's real name (Holmes, I think it was?)... in which case: nice continuity callback there.

 

H.H. Holmes.  Fun fact from that episode -- one of pictures of his "victims" was actually a picture of one of Jack the Ripper's victims.

 

I'll just put my Encyclopedia of Serial Killers back on my coffee table now.  :-)  Maybe Sam would like to borrow it.

[mertensia]

I'll give them the Jack the Ripper photo since Mudgett was (at one point) thought to have been Jack -and this website Sam brought up was undoubtably run by someone who still believed that theory.

Loved that they kept focussing on Dean's eyes.

[supposebly]

I really find that they've been doing a disservice to Crowley's character. It kinda started a bit in season 9 but I sort of could chalk it up to residual blood addiction. But now?

I always loved that he was so opportunistic and as a Crossroads demon, he is a master manipulator. Being disappointed with the Winchesters does not sit right with me, even if for a minute, he thought he could control Demon Dean. Miscalculation, not exactly stupidity. So, I'm not at all on board with him letting his mother of all people walk all over him even if he is aware of it. Being a demon mean having the soul and humanity burnt off you. So, why are mommy issues raising their ugly heads?

I really really hope he has a long-con. Otherwise, they really need to kill him off. He's no fun when it looks like he's being manipulated. Even he is aware of it. He still lets her.

 

I loved the scene when Dean got the Blade and said he was fine. It was clear from that very moment that he was in trouble. There was none of the usual bravado when he goes into a fairly hopeless situation, it looked very much like happiness.

 

I liked the scene between Dean and Cain although it did drag on a bit. I'm fairly certain Cain is dead, there was a sound effect and there was blood on the blade when Dean walked back down the stairs.

 

 

I'll be curious to see if the fact that Cain let himself be killed makes a difference to how the Mark responds.

 

Interesting thought. I'm not terribly optimistic that the writers thought about that part in the long-term but it would be a nice plot point for further development.

 

Sam pretty much has not a lot of options left. Either, he tries to kill Dean which is not really an option for him, or wait until Dean becomes demonized again. Is that even possible without the blade?

 

I find Dean learning of Sam's hobby ridiculous. Why would Dean not know that? They've been living in each other's pockets for years, how would that have escaped his notice until now? Don't add new character things at this point! It's annoying.

 

I really liked the beginning. There was a moment where I wasn't sure what show I was watching.

 

I want Timothy Omundsen's hair. It's probably the best hair on TV right now.

[Primetimer]

Sadly, dismembering isn't the family hobby Rowena hopes for.

Read the story

[rue721]

Unless the serial killer is going to become a ghost - which coincidentally did happen that one time - it's more of a "hobby." A slightly dark one - which interesting there - but a hobby none-the-less. And could that whole thing be a call back to that early episode. I'd have to check, but I think it might have been Sam who knew about that serial killer's real name (Holmes, I think it was?)... in which case: nice continuity callback there.

 

(Personal example: I identify insects, but I do general taxonomy, so I rarely have to identify a critter to species. That's my job. But I also photograph and identify moths, and I often do that to species. I consider that one of my hobbies. It's work-adjacent, but not necessary for my actual job 98+% of the time - although it does on rare occasions come in useful if a homeowner finds a pretty moth and wants to know what it is.

 

Seems to me that Sam just spends his time studying up on murders and murderers. Non-human ones he hunts, and human ones he...just indulges a morbid curiosity in? Idk, to me it just seems like same diff.

 

Especially since they must have to research all kinds of killers anyway, in order to figure out if they're actually human or if they're possessed/demons/monsters. Sam and Dean can't go around killing just regular human beings, even if those human beings are murderers -- that's the difference between a "hunter" and a vigilante.

 

If true crime is a "hobby," it's a hobby in the way that a professional screenwriter reading novels or going to plays is a "hobby," or a photographer fixing cameras is a "hobby." Doing that kind of stuff seems to me like it's part of the territory of doing the work that people in a profession do, even if it's not making any money directly. The reason why I even care is that it seems ridiculous to me that this true crime interest is framed as though this ~facet~ of Sam's personality has apparently been ~discovered~ by Dean in this episode, except that this facet is just like all the other (workaholic) facets that are basically all we know about Sam already. I just find it irritating. If Dean shows up with some extra knowledge about weaponry, is that going to be ~character development~ and showing a new facet of his character, too? Eh. YMMV.

 

I'll be curious to see if the fact that Cain let himself be killed makes a difference to how the Mark responds.  And since Dean wasn't giving it his all in the fight maybe he never crossed whatever line needed to be crossed to activate Evil!Dean.  Although, if that's the case I'm not sure how the rest of the season would go--that might be a little anticlimactic.  

 

Cain was goading Dean that whole time. First he tried to piss Dean off, then Dean asked Cain not to make him kill him, then Cain basically laid his head on the chopping block. I don't know why Cain decided that *now* was the time to pass the torch, though.

 

I can't help wondering if the earlier mention of Adam in the season was some sort of breadcrumb, but that's probably giving Carver too much credit

 

If they use Adam as a "get out of jail free" card *again* -- after pulling that same "trick" in S5 -- that would be so aggravating.

[DittyDotDot]

I'm on the fence about this one. It was nice to get some forward movement happening, but it was soooooo slooow--especially the second half. And one of the most boring fights ever, IMO--this is Dean freakin' Winchester and Cain battling, shouldn't it be epic? When Dean sllooowwly stepped into that devil's trap, I was yelling at my screen, "would you just get on with it, for fucks sake!!!" (Not in a I-can't-wait-for-this-most-awesome-moment-that's-been-building-and-building-all-episode way that I think they were going for, but more in a please-get-this-over-with-and-stop-annoying-the-shit-out-of-me way.) Add on the sad and droopy music and all the sad and droopy looks at the camera...I hate to say this, but I don't think you brought this one home Mr. Scriggia, I'm sorry. I will say, I liked how he shot the driving scenes at the top of episode--I like to see something new and I thought they were rather effective. However, I still think Robert Berens is one of the few writers that seems to be able to make it from A to B to C reasonably, so at least my head doesn't hurt from trying to make sense out of it. I don't know, just too sentimental and lacking in a certain spark to get me engaged, I guess.

 

Since I do prefer subtlety, I actually didn't mind Rowena in this one. Still not enamored with the actress, but she seemed to pull back on some of the over-the-topness that previously annoyed me. I did a full-on belly laugh at her telling Crowley he was a disappointing twit though--that's how I've felt for sometime too! Crowley is best when he's the smartest one in the room, but no one even notices that he's in the room. I get they're trying to give him his comeuppance; I'd just rather they stab him in his face, though. Whatever.

 

Looks like Cass it showing signs of weakening again. Oh good, because that haven't already done that story to death. Sigh.

 

Timothy Omundson was the highlight of the episode for me. It's truly astonishing to me because I recently started watching Psych and, of course, I saw Galavant...that man has some range. Oh and Cain's hair totally out-acted Sam's hair!! ;)

 

 

SueB, on 17 Feb 2015 - 9:38 PM, said:

The Executioner's Song.  I'm really going to have to think on that title.

 

The Executioner's Song is a Pulitzer Prize winning book about the execution of Gary Gilmore for multiple murders in the mid-'70s. Gilmore was the first person in the United States executed after the re-instatement of the death penalty. The book was written by Norman Mailer who was best known for true crime "journalism". Add in Sam's "new" fascination with true crimes and the title kinda makes a lot of sense...I think. I use quotes on "new" because I recall Sam being able to pull Henry Herman Mudget's name out of thin air back in S2, so maybe it's not anything new at all, just something never before explored.

Edited February 18, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[SueB]

Got to rewatch this morning...really was an excellent episode from my POV.  Here's data I picked up or confirmed (IMO, of course) throughout the episode:

 

Everything Cain did was about Dean:  Dean was right, the proto-genecide was on him AND Crowley.  They kicked over that bee-hive and out swarmed blood-thirsty Cain.  The reason the title The Executioner's Song was important was IMO because this was Cain trying to force Dean to kill him. Cain is trying to go out in his wacked-up version of noble. Dean clearly didn't want to -- even after the mass murders.  And not just because he was afraid of the effect of killing a powerful being like Cain would have on himself. He FELT BAD for Cain. But Cain's mission there was to save Dean.  JUST like the foreshadowing in the teaser. Where he said he was there to punish and save the serial killer.  And he knew Dean would eventually catch up with him.  He even admitted he didn't kill Cas so as to draw him in.  I would suggest that after killing off demons, Cain started going after his own bloodline to 1) satisfy the Mark, and 2) force Dean to try and kill him.  Sam expressing doubt was done to make it clear how slam-dunk of a decision this was for Dean.  And Cain knew that he had to leave Dean no choice.  Even when Dean begged at the end, Cain made it clear that he either kill him or Cain would kill more people.  Really, I think Cain wanted to die. But only if he could somehow save Dean in the process (more later)  I don't know if he did or not.  

 

The not-fight fight. Cain was clearly playing with Dean and Dean was holding back.  Cain wanted to see if Dean would go Stabby McStabberson.  Relapse or Remission.  Farawayeyes on WFB has liken the Mark to a terminal illness in previous episodes.  The use of relapse or remission sure seems to fit that analogy. While I think Dean was terrified of going beserk when he killed Cain, his connection to Cain's dilemma was a huge factor.  As soon as the fight started, I could tell Dean wasn't trying hard enough.  He's been far more effective/efficient in the past.   And what did it take to get Dean to FINALLY go uber-hunter?   Telling him he'd have to kill Sammy.  I'm 100% positive Cain knew that was the trigger.  And it wasn't Cain killing Sam, it was Dean killing Sam.  That's just like waving a red flag under Dean's nose -- worse than the Mark/Blade's need. I don't think Cain expected to lose the arm, he just expected to get Dean to finally start to REALLY fight.  And once he lost the arm, Cain GOT what he wanted.  Dean would kill him now.  Yes, Cain f*cked his mind up pretty badly by coming up with that "life in reverse" story.  It may be the truth. Or maybe it's just Cain's way of motivating Dean and finding salvation. Dean would rather take on the effect of killing Cain then leave Cain alive. And Dean is terrified of killing Sam.  Somehow those two warring topics, and Dean's ability to not kill Sam, is what's going to save him (I think).

 

Cas on a mission. Well Cas has gotten over torture issues.  Of course it was a demon, but he was not remotely remorseful about killing the dude. I'm not sure the demon would have blabbed about his run-in with Cas to Crowley, so my hope is that Cas new the meatsuit was dead.  Otherwise...brrrrr.  And then Dean gives him the FREAKING BLADE.  Why Dean Why?  Whoever has the Blade is a target if Dean loses his shit.  At least Crowley can apparate (HP crossover!).  Did Dean give it to him because he trusts Cas more or because he thinks he might hesitate to kill Cas.  Notice he wouldn't give it to Sam.  That would be Sam in the line of fire if Dean got Blade-hungry.  

 

The end of Growley and Squirrel.  For real.  To me Crowley's affection for the Winchesters is that they generally DO keep their word.  And I think Dean knows this.  Which is why Dean made sure Crowley knew that Dean had lied to him twice.  "I never lied Dean, that's important, that's fundamental" (Crowley to Dean in "Do You Believe in Miracles).  Crowley's Mommy-abandonment issues are tied up in her betrayal.  The Winchesters are loyal to a fault.  And Dean just broke that code. Did he do it because he wants Crowley out of his life completely?  Probably.  But did he do Crowley a favor by pushing him away (which is what he did)?  I think maybe yes.  Going back to Cain's taunting ... he's taken Crowley "off the board" potentially.  On the one hand Dean should want to kill Crowley just for existing.  OTOH, Crowley did apparently help him control his bloodlust immediately after transformation.  And he did get the blade and bring it to Dean.  If Crowley has the blade, Dean would kill him in a heartbeat to get it from him.   

 

Fergus & his Mum.  I was so pleased that he called her on the blatant manipulation in a long con.  But she KNOWS him well enough that she offered an interesting diversion -- Mother/Son revenge murder plot.  Sounds like a good time Saturday night for Crowley.  And just when they were getting along, he goes running off.  Boy is she pissed. Yes, it's a manipulation, but those daggers she was throwing at the end were spot on.  And he knows it.  Bobo Berens (the writer) said the original wording was "Collosal Pussy!" but they couldn't use the "P" word so they used "numbnuts".  I think it was as close to saying he has a useless manhood as they could come up with.  She then followed it up with "flop ass up" and 'you're their bitch".  For a guy who sold his soul for 3 inches of willy, maybe she knows how to really dig.  It's not about sexuality, BTW, it's about power.  And SPN once again unfortunately equates sexual dominance with desired power.  Bleech.  But kinda right for Crowley's personality.  In short, I agree with others, he's going to come back harsh after this.  Any affection he had for the Winchesters is gone or a weakness in his mind now.  

 

Cain's Death: On second watch I heard the tell-tale roll of thunder when the blade struck.  They should have made the cosmic signs much larger for such a BIG death.  But I think they meant for us to believe Cain is dead.  I will say that if they change their mind later, they can. But I also see how they could have thought killing Cain, who had a weird sympathy to him, was not something they wanted us to see.  They wanted it more left to our imagination. Again, I think the door is open, but I wouldn't be surprised if he's dead dead.  

 

Bits & Bobs:

- When Dean collapsed in Sammy's arms, it was VERY reminiscent of when he died at the end of S9.  I think that was on purpose.  Maybe Dean just died a bit.  

- Dean has cuts and bruises, if he was a demon, those would have healed. I think he's still physically human...on the edge maybe...but still human at this moment.

- Dean saying he was scared. HOLY SHIT.  That was big.  This has really been the season of character growth for Dean.  He's so OPEN with Sam, it just stuns me.  Yes he was scared in S3, but this felt more raw.  Zero bravado.  

- Sam's face at the end. He KNOWS. I'm glad he knows.  Dean is not okay.  And Dean said "Maybe" but he wasn't offering false assurances to his little brother.  This is freaking Sam out.  He's used to Dean's assurances and those are gone.  I think their entire relationship this year has led to Dean letting go of protecting Sam from bad news.  I still think he won't ever kill Sam, but he sure has taken a major step by removing all the pretense.  

- I think Cas IS weakening.  That was barely a puff of wind in Cain's face.  *sigh*  I think that'll end up a S11 story vice resolved in S10.  

 

In short, I loved this episode.  I wish they had made Cain's death more obvious and with louder thunder, but I thought it was well done.  

Edited February 18, 2015 by SueB

[Pete Martell]

I really find that they've been doing a disservice to Crowley's character. It kinda started a bit in season 9 but I sort of could chalk it up to residual blood addiction. But now?

I always loved that he was so opportunistic and as a Crossroads demon, he is a master manipulator. Being disappointed with the Winchesters does not sit right with me, even if for a minute, he thought he could control Demon Dean. Miscalculation, not exactly stupidity. So, I'm not at all on board with him letting his mother of all people walk all over him even if he is aware of it. Being a demon mean having the soul and humanity burnt off you. So, why are mommy issues raising their ugly heads?

I really really hope he has a long-con. Otherwise, they really need to kill him off. He's no fun when it looks like he's being manipulated. Even he is aware of it. He still lets her.

 

For me the only time Crowley is watchable is when he's being manipulated or is vulnerable. I don't think he's ever worked in a role beyond quasi-ally. When they tried that in season 8 it just seemed forced and I was and still am annoyed that they didn't kill him off after what he did to Sarah Blake. 

 

I think the character's natural end was late season 9 - I think Dean should have killed him. As they chose not to do this, I don't mind seeing more of his emotions explored as his mother manipulates him and leads him to what most suits her. I still hope this ends in his death, either at her hand (and then of course Dean would kill her and people would say he avenged his "bromance" [bleh]), or at Dean's.

[catrox14]

, "would you just get on with it, for fucks sake!!!

 

I couldn't understand why Dean was hesitating until it struck me that if demon!Dean has been lurking he would hesitate to get into the Devils' Trap. And I was still half expecting that when Dean stepped into it that he wouldn't be able to leave, thus showing that demon!Dean was still there.  But alas twas not to be.

 

And as much as I loved every scene between Dean and Alistair and Dean and Death, this work with Jensen and Omundson was possibly the best with a guest star. Tough call and I really hope Cain isn't dead.

[supposebly]

Oh, one more thing....until I remember something else. I loved the camerawork in the car at the beginning. It was like sitting in the back seat! Why haven't they done this before? I guess it's cumbersome sitting in the back with the camera. Still, more of it!

[catrox14]

Oh, one more thing....until I remember something else. I loved the camerawork in the car at the beginning. It was like sitting in the back seat! Why haven't they done this before? I guess it's cumbersome sitting in the back with the camera. Still, more of it!

 

I mentioned that in my first comment on the episode. I LUV that. I think I love it even more because it shows that Jensen really does drive the Impala in most scenes and he even does some of  his own stunt driving and it's awesome and sexy and cool.  And I thought showing the boys driving into the prison from that perspective was really creepy.  Like I felt like I was in the car with them and it was spooky and kind of sad too. 

 

I loved Dean's face when he saw Cain on the video. It was a mix of "Oh Gods...It's him" filled with dread but also I think a tinge of ....".ohhhhh look it's Cain." in a weird attached way.

[DittyDotDot]

I couldn't understand why Dean was hesitating until it struck me that if demon!Dean has been lurking he would hesitate to get into the Devils' Trap. And I was still half expecting that when Dean stepped into it that he wouldn't be able to leave, thus showing that demon!Dean was still there.  But alas twas not to be.

 

Oh, I understood what they were doing with it, I just thought it was incredibly tensionless and boring.

[Pete Martell]

My main thought when he kept getting knocked back was worry that Dean (or Jensen, if that wasn't a stunt person) would stab themselves with the blade...

[catrox14]

Oh, I understood what they were doing with it, I just thought it was incredibly tensionless and boring.

 

Sorry, I wasn't implying that you didn't know.  .I was just saying that's what went through my mind, not that it was necessarily intentional on the shows part. I think it's also possible that Dean was hesitating because he was worried about what it would do to him to really go balls out on Cain. 

 

I kept looking for Dean's eyes to flicker to black but nope :(

My main thought when he kept getting knocked back was worry that Dean (or Jensen, if that wasn't a stunt person) would stab themselves with the blade...

 

I thought at one point Dean was bleeding.  I would imagine other than the stunt when he was thrown through the glass that was probably all Jensen, since he does so much of his own stuff.

[rue721]

I loved Dean's face when he saw Cain on the video. It was a mix of "Oh Gods...It's him" filled with dread but also I think a tinge of ....".ohhhhh look it's Cain." in a weird attached way.

Yeah, he looked kind of happy/excited to see him, I thought. But wouldnt that make sense even for the practical reason that they've been looking for info in the Mark, and therefore looking for Caine, thinking that he probably does know something about it? I thought that's what Cas in particular has been up to lately?

Out of all the people that they try to "interrogate," they didn't ask Caine for much information. Caine saying that he's proof there is no cure doesn't really make sense to me - because from his perspective, isn't death via the Blade "curing" him? Isn't that why he wanted to be killed with the Blade? He can't die otherwise. Where's his soul now, anyway?

I figured Dean couldn't give the Blade back to Crowley in any case, since if/when he becomes a demon again, he'd have access to anyplace Crowley might hide it. Cas can hide it in places a demon can't go, though.

I guess that Dean was pushing Crowley away, but I just straight up don't understand Dean's relationship with with Crowley or Cas, so can't even really speculate much about it, tbh.

[supposebly]

 

My main thought when he kept getting knocked back was worry that Dean (or Jensen, if that wasn't a stunt person) would stab themselves with the blade...

I don't know how anyone can stab anyone with that thing. It's not exactly...pointy. I guess that's why they cut away from the actual stabbing (or have flashy lighting effects) because, seriously, that would probably look a little strange.

 

 

isn't death via the Blade "curing" him

Problem is, you need the mark to wield the blade. So Dean would have to pass on the mark. And I guess suicide by blade is out of the question, I assume Cain tried that one.

 

I wonder what would happen if the blade gets destroyed? Maybe that's a solution?

Edited February 18, 2015 by supposebly

[rue721]

I thought at one point Dean was bleeding.  I would imagine other than the stunt when he was thrown through the glass that was probably all Jensen, since he does so much of his own stuff.

Dean's been getting a lot of terrible head injuries lately, hasn't he? I hadn't noticed him getting hit/kicked/thrown through things head-first so much before this season!

[catrox14]

Thinking back to the episode when Dean told Cas he'd have to smite him or whatever IMO that is why Dean gave Cas the Blade. He had to lie to Crowley to get the Blade but not because he's afraid of Crowley but to get it into Cas' hand.

 

I think Cas has come to terms with having to be the one that kills Dean if need be because Dean won't ask that of Sam and I'm not sure Sam could do it anyway. I think that was the weird look on Dean's face when he gave Cas that little pat on his shoulder;  Dean acknowledging IMO the tacit agreement that Cas will do the deed if the time comes. 

 

I wonder what would happen if the blade gets destroyed? Maybe that's a solution?

 

I thought the Blade was indestructible which is why Cain threw it in the Mariana trench.

Edited February 18, 2015 by catrox14

[SueB]

Having watched 3 times (no judging!), I can say with a fair amount of certainty the Jensen did all the stunts except the crash they the window. And even then I couldn't see stunt guys face. But it was definitely Jensen with all those rolls. And I rhoufht, damn son.. You are getting bruised for you art. You can roll easy enough in you 20's, but that many throw downs with multiple angles... Ouchbay.

I was thinking Cas might tuck the blade in Heaven but it's such a corrupt object, I don't know if he could get it up the elevator shaft.

I love and adore Cas. I don't know if he could kill Dean. I think he feels it's his mission to save Dean. Still. Despite all that's happened, Cas sees Dean as good (which he is).

Edited February 18, 2015 by SueB

[Pete Martell]

I saw some fans joking about the last time Cas had to store something (the souls) and how they hoped he wouldn't put it in that same place again...

[supposebly]

Or like the tablet......He does like to store things in his tummy.

 

Maybe it's a chicken and egg question: If the mark is gone somehow, the blade can be destroyed too. Still, I would at least try to drop it in an active volcano. Or in the sun.

 

I really hope they have a smart solution for this conundrum and not just something lame like the power of love that melts the mark off Dean's arm.

 

Although the solution might just be that Cain couldn't get rid of it because he had killed his brother. So, if Dean can resist that, he might just get rid of the mark.

Edited February 18, 2015 by supposebly

[Demented Daisy]

I'm disappointed with the episode, but I expect that's my fault.  I was hoping for some answers, but I feel like I learned nothing.  Except that Dean might kill Sam... again.

[oliverwendell]

I just watched the episode, and I loved it.  From the opening scene with the music cues set to the billyclub knocking against the cell doors, I knew this would be a great episode.  I thought Jensen and Odmunsen brought it with a vengeance in their fight/talk scene, and Jensen in particular was gut-wrenching in portraying the exhaustion and fear at the end.  Jared, too -- I love seeing these shades of Sam that are brought about by his worry for Dean; we haven't seen those since Season 3, and I've missed them.

 

Now I'm getting sad about Dean killing Crowley.  That seems to be a certainty by the end of the season, doesn't it?  Would they also have him kill Castiel?  God, that would suuuuuuuuck.  

 

I actually like Rowena, to be honest.  The actress is a scenery chewer, but that bit at the end when she laid on the "I'm so proud of my boy who pulled himself up by his boot straps" only to switch to "you're an impotent weakling and the Winchesters' bitch" was pretty damned great, I thought.  It showed in a flash what a cruel mother she must have been to her wee bairn all those years ago.

[AwesomO4000]

Except that Dean might kill Sam... again.

 

And probably that he's not going to tell Sam about this until some big "dramatic" moment (perhaps)... again.

 

Except I'd be amused if this time instead of Sam getting all huffy and running off he just said something like "Of course you're supposed to kill me. You know what, Dean? Screw all this destiny crap stuff. Let's just do it. You kill me, I'll kill you, and we'll put each other out of our misery."

 

Edited to add:

I love seeing these shades of Sam that are brought about by his worry for Dean; we haven't seen those since Season 3, and I've missed them.

 

I saw them in late season 6 and throughout season 7, too, which is one of the reasons I like that season so much. That even though Sam was a bit crazy and hallucinating, the writers still allowed him to be concerned about Dean and to be trying to convince Dean to get help. And in lieu of that not working (because Dean's kinda stubborn that way), Sam trying his best to distract Dean with work / hunts (which was generally a more successful strategy when it worked.)

 

I'm glad that after 2 seasons of missing that kind of Sam, they've finally returned him to me.

Edited February 18, 2015 by AwesomO4000

[cassandle]

Having watched 3 times (no judging!), I can say with a fair amount of certainty the Jensen did all the stunts except the crash they the window. And even then I couldn't see stunt guys face. But it was definitely Jensen with all those rolls. And I rhoufht, damn son.. You are getting bruised for you art. You can roll easy enough in you 20's, but that many throw downs with multiple angles... Ouchbay.

 

I think the same thing watching him do his stunts.  He and I are the same age and I can't fathom doing what he does considering I hurt myself by napping on the couch in a weird position.  Him doing his own stunts makes JA that much more impressive (and by "impressive" I mean "hot" obviously).  

[catrox14]

P.S. Can someone please do something about Sam's hair.  :(. 

[supposebly]

 

P.S. Can someone please do something about Sam's hair.  :(.

They have never been able to do something about Sam's hair. What makes you think, 10th season is the charm? ;)

 

Right now, it looks like a helmet. I think that's a new atrocity.

 

Especially comparing with the hair that guest-starred.....Oh my.

 

In retrospect, I think season 8 and 9 had the best Sam hair. So, good hair = bad season IMO.

Edited February 18, 2015 by supposebly

[catrox14]

I liked Sam's hair in s8 and s9 for the most part...but good lord. I've said elsewhere that if put a bowl on his head and cut bangs he'd be Prince Valiant. GROW IT OUT MORE SAM. FOR SCIENCE.

 

 

Questions:

When Dean collapsed into Sam's arms that look he shot up at the place where he fought Cain.....I dunno....I still think Cain might not be dead. It was ambiguous.

 

If Dean killed Abaddon and it really sparked the bloodlust, shouldn't him killing the Father of Murder make his bloodlust even stronger?

 

Why didn't Dean jedi the Blade into his hand? Does he no longer have that capability?

Edited February 18, 2015 by catrox14

[oliverwendell]

 

Why didn't Dean jedi the Blade into his hand? Does he no longer have that capability?

 

I doubt the Blade was interested in being Jedi'd.  It was caught between two masters, half in and half out of the Devil's Trap.  But Dean's feral leap across about ten feet of space to try to get it was hilariously awesome.  Somebody needs to gif that.  Not me, though, because I'm not even sure I spelled gif right.

Edited February 18, 2015 by fourteenwords

[RileyMay]

 

Why didn't Dean jedi the Blade into his hand? Does he no longer have that capability?

 

I think it was probably because Dean was still holding back.

[catrox14]

I think it was probably because Dean was still holding back.

That is an interesting idea. 

 

Are you saying that Dean doesn't want to use his powers because he's afraid of what it will do to him?

[RileyMay]

 

Are you saying that Dean doesn't want to use his powers because he's afraid of what it will do to him?

 

I think using the jedi trick taps into the power of the mark and won't help him keep control. If he gives in to that, even a little, he thinks he won't be able to stop himself.

[rue721]

I think using the jedi trick taps into the power of the mark and won't help him keep control. If he gives in to that, even a little, he thinks he won't be able to stop himself.

 

I wonder if something similar is going on with the healing?

 

This episode, they made a point of showing Dean's bloody knuckles, and proved that he *hadn't* healed.

 

The weird thing about the Devil's Trap is that Dean got out of the one in the bunker's dungeon before he was actually cured. So I'm not sure how they effect him, even when he's a demon?

 

I'm not actually sure if the usual demon weapons actually work on him or not, in general (or if the usual weapons do work on him, then:  How well do they work? Which ones work? Etc). When he got out of the Devil's Trap and the handcuffs back at the bunker, that might very well have been bad writing, but it's also "canon" now I guess...?

Edited February 19, 2015 by rue721

[catrox14]

I wonder if something similar is going on with the healing?

 

This episode, they made a point of showing Dean's bloody knuckles, and proved that he *hadn't* healed.

 

The weird thing about the Devil's Trap is that Dean got out of the one in the bunker's dungeon before he was actually cured. So I'm not sure how they effect him, even when he's a demon?

 

I'm not actually sure if the usual demon weapons actually work on him or not, in general (or if the usual weapons do work on him, then:  How well do they work? Which ones work? Etc). When he got out of the Devil's Trap and the handcuffs back at the bunker, that might very well have been bad writing, but it's also "canon" now I guess...?

 

Either that or it's a setup for demon!Dean to come back later.  It was said that he had been cured just enough to slip the cuffs and the devils trap.  I think it's plausible but Crowley never did that but Crowley was also never alone and was kind of actually enjoying the humanity of it all so maybe it didn't occur to Crowley to try it. Maybe in Dean's case he really wanted out of there badly enough to figure it out.  I think there is enough wiggle room to not attribute it to solely bad writing.

[oliverwendell]

There's a lot of confusion about the state of Dean's humanity, that's for sure.  Is he still a little demonic?  Or did the "cure" re-humanize him completely?  I tend to think there's no demon left in him right now, but that if he died the Mark/Blade combo could reanimate him as a demon just as before.  

 

I'm also confused about whether he can be killed by anything other than the Blade in his current state.  I'm confident that when he was a demon, only the Blade could kill him, just as was the case with Cain.  But now that he's human again, I tend to think he's as vulnerable to ordinary weapons as any human, although it's possible that the Mark enables him to heal more quickly from non-fatal wounds.  I imagine the same was also true of Cain, before he became a demon.  But I really don't think the show has made it clear either way.  

[catrox14]

There's a lot of confusion about the state of Dean's humanity, that's for sure.  Is he still a little demonic?  Or did the "cure" re-humanize him completely?  I tend to think there's no demon left in him right now, but that if he died the Mark/Blade combo could reanimate him as a demon just as before.  

 

I'm also confused about whether he can be killed by anything other than the Blade in his current state.  I'm confident that when he was a demon, only the Blade could kill him, just as was the case with Cain.  But now that he's human again, I tend to think he's as vulnerable to ordinary weapons as any human, although it's possible that the Mark enables him to heal more quickly from non-fatal wounds.  I imagine the same was also true of Cain, before he became a demon.  But I really don't think the show has made it clear either way.  

 

Here's what I don't get.  Dean has taken some severe blows to the head this year and when he killed the rapist guys he took a kick to the head. I kept thinking that maybe those blows could have killed him and then he came back to life but wasn't a demon again.  So I guess we won't really know unless Dean is really most sincerely killed again.   We do need some clarity on this point that's for sure.

[SueB]

I found it interesting how Cain emphasized his bloodline being tainted. Makes me think that even if Dean ever had a desire to have a child, he'd be afraid it would be evil.

At least they didn't have Dean slip one past the goalie and create an anti-Christ while he was a demon.

Edited February 19, 2015 by SueB

[catrox14]

I found it interesting how Cain emphasized his bloodline being tainted. Makes me think that even if Dean ever had a desire to have a child, he'd be afraid it would be evil.

At least they didn't have Dean slip one past the goalie and create an anti-Christ while he was a demon.

 

OMG! I had the exact thought during that scene! And it kind of broke my heart for Dean because you know he loves kids and was so scared of being a terrible father like John only now he thinks he would have an evil child and now I wonder if he thinks he's evil and was always evil...which....I dunno.

 

To your second point....that we know of....I would not be in the least bit surprised to see Ann Marie pop back up 9 months preggers with Damien.  I swear if Dean thought he spawned a demon child..I think he'd kill himself.

Edited February 19, 2015 by catrox14

[rue721]

I found it interesting how Cain emphasized his bloodline being tainted. Makes me think that even if Dean ever had a desire to have a child, he'd be afraid it would be evil.

 

I think Cain was trying to make Dean wonder if he and Sam were on Cain's hit list. But personally, I thought it was ridiculous. Practically everyone's blood is ~tainted~, according to somebody or other. And the whole eugenics-y bullshit of a "bloodline" being "tainted" by immorality is all-around stupid and revolting. If Cain bought into that stuff, too bad he was never given a chance to discover the Great Truths revealed by phrenology. It *was* creepy, though, how twisted Cain had to have become to try and wage a genocide on his own descendents (and only his own descendents, apparently).

[mertensia]

Maybe Dean just lopped off Cain's arm. Which would make him a one-armed man. Which means *he* killed Richard Kimble's wife!

Sam's hair is Marilyn Quayle hair.

[AwesomO4000]

To your second point....that we know of....I would not be in the least bit surprised to see Ann Marie pop back up 9 months preggers with Damien.  I swear if Dean thought he spawned a demon child..I think he'd kill himself.

 

I'm not clear on this, because Castiel seemed to imply that the anti-christ was only the spawn of a demon and a human, but I have a feeling that it's not quite that easy - or demons would be doing it all over the place (pun intended). I think the fact that Jesse's mother was a virgin was probably an important point. In Supernatural-verse - as with some other magic-based verses - virgins and virgin blood seem to hold power and/or be necessary for magic to occur (even opening purgatory required virgin's blood). So I'm guessing that might be a requirement - in which case I don't think Ann Marie would qualify? I personally, though, think that it was more than that, and that despite Castiel's assurances, there was something else in addition special about Jesse's mother, especially since she did not conceive in the usual way. Cas thinks that Jesse was simply "demon spawn," but I don't think that means what Cas thinks it means, or as I said, demons would go possessing people and making progeny that way all the time in hopes of potentially having a powerful anti-christ when / if Lucifer rises again. (Or bring the progeny to wherever the cage is - because apparently people can survive in hell - to get him/her powered up with Lucifer's mojo.)

[catrox14]

Some ponderances.

 

  Is Dean no longer on the FBI radar? I know they were declared dead and I can accept them walzting in and out of local small town sheriffs offices and posing as FBI to random private citizens but being on a maximum security prison camera seems to be pushing it and not seeing them like erase it or something with some device made me go ...hmmmm.  

 

 Sam's true crime hobby seemed way out of left field and rather morbid for Sam and even more odd that Dean never knew about it. Sam might have known about the guy in s2 but I thought that was just some urban legend stuff he remembered.

 

Thinking back to Sam being really freaked out about Dean killing those rapey guys and then all this serial killer stuff and Cain, is making   me wonder if that is a bit of foreshadowing as to Dean's ultimate fate.  Yes it was setting up the Cain reveal but it seems like something more could be going on there.  Then Claire is still out there who knows what Dean did and wanted to kill him for it, and just because she moved on for the moment doesn't mean that's over with.  Then there is Lester. What happened with that? Did the police ever know that Lester was murdered?  Did Dean clean up that crime scene.  Did the boys clean up the crime scene with the rapey guys?

 

Of course I might be giving them too much credit but back in s1 they setup Dean being wanted by the FBI with Skin and actually carried that through to s3 off and on then the Slash Fiction stuff in s7 did Frank make all that go away? I can't quite remember .

 

I guess I'm wondering....would Sam in order to protect Dean turn him into the cops as a serial killer.  Like would Sam think that was the only way to save Dean and protect society? 

 

It just seems like the whole born killer, serial killer bloodline to Cain is pointing to Dean ending up behind bars.

[mertensia]

Season 11: Prison Break? It's an interesting idea.

[SueB]

Okay, but does Sam get all the tatoos?

I think they've put the FBI blindness into the same category as where the money comes from. A wizard did it.

[catrox14]

Okay, but does Sam get all the tatoos?

I think they've put the FBI blindness into the same category as where the money comes from. A wizard did it.

 

I can easily fanwank the money thing as the boys running gambling scams and heck maybe demon!Dean robbed some people. And don't forget they had all the gold and jewels from the dragon that I figure maybe they sold some of that since they didn't take it all to Frontierland. They have a home now that they don't pay rent, don't pay electric and gas and don't pay for internet. So they only have to really pay for gas and motels and crap food every now and then.  I also think maybe the LoL had money stashed somewhere. And maybe Charlie transfers some of the money she scammed from Roman enterprises into the boys coffers.

 

But being on a prison security tape....that one bugs me. LOL

and the FBI thing, but this one is different. The warden seemed to be willing to believe something paranormal happened in that prison, so they could have just told the Warden yeah we deal with this weird stuff and I think he would ahve bought it...then maybe the warden had the tape erased of them being in the prison.

[DittyDotDot]

I think Cain was trying to make Dean wonder if he and Sam were on Cain's hit list. But personally, I thought it was ridiculous. Practically everyone's blood is ~tainted~, according to somebody or other. And the whole eugenics-y bullshit of a "bloodline" being "tainted" by immorality is all-around stupid and revolting. If Cain bought into that stuff, too bad he was never given a chance to discover the Great Truths revealed by phrenology. It *was* creepy, though, how twisted Cain had to have become to try and wage a genocide on his own descendents (and only his own descendents, apparently).

 

I can't believe the things this show gets me pondering. So, if Cain was killing one-tenth of his progeny, wouldn't that be a good chunk of the people on the planet if everyone was descended from either Cain or Abel? Which led me to...ewww...never mind not going there. Anyhoo, I just thought it was kinda funny that apparently only Cain's decedents living in middle America were the evil ones. ;) 

 

Oh, and the weird thing I was pondering...Cass has suggested in the past he watched an evolutionary creation of man--something about not knowing if mankind would survive and he rooted for the Neanderthals because of their poetry and one of his brothers telling him not to step on a mudfish and all--but in this episode he's clearly taking the more Biblical "God created man as he is today" stance.

 

 

Of course I might be giving them too much credit but back in s1 they setup Dean being wanted by the FBI with Skin and actually carried that through to s3 off and on then the Slash Fiction stuff in s7 did Frank make all that go away? I can't quite remember.

 

Frank didn't make it go away, the just sheriff told everyone Sam and Dean were dead--but the Amazons were still able to connect the dots. And those "mentalists" recognized Sam and Dean. Apparently Sam and Dean just telling folks they aren't the killers previously seen killing is good enough--those boys do tend to have an affect on folks. I think we're supposed to believe law enforcement just really is that incompetent, but I wouldn't mind a prison break season at all. ;)

The warden seemed to be willing to believe something paranormal happened in that prison, so they could have just told the Warden yeah we deal with this weird stuff and I think he would ahve bought it...then maybe the warden had the tape erased of them being in the prison.

 

Which reminds me...Sarah Blake's father is now the warden of a prison! I wonder if he still does the art auction thing on the side. Didn't I say this was a fun game? ;)