S10.E14: The Executioner's Song

[SueB]

I can't believe the things this show gets me pondering. So, if Cain was killing one-tenth of his progeny, wouldn't that be a good chunk of the people on the planet if everyone was descended from either Cain or Abel? Which led me to...ewww...never mind not going there. Anyhoo, I just thought it was kinda funny that apparently only Cain's decedents living in middle America were the evil ones. ;) 

 

Oh, and the weird thing I was pondering...Cass has suggested in the past he watched an evolutionary creation of man--something about not knowing if mankind would survive and he rooted for the Neanderthals because of their poetry and one of his brothers telling him not to step on a mudfish and all--but in this episode he's clearly taking the more Biblical "God created man as he is today" stance.

 

The meta reason is obvious: brother killing brother -- juicy potboiler stuff from the Old Testament

 

Now, my in-universe fan theory:

First off, there's Seth (who Adam and Eve had to replace Able).  So Seth had kids as well.  Then you've got Noah (descendant of Seth) and the flood, which wiped out everyone but Noah's family and some animals. So...in theory, you could say maybe one of Noah's relatives was from Cain's line so...a tenth.  But this is a very literal interpretation of the Bible. You could roll with that if you ignore the rest of the show (which I wont).

The show has already rejected a literal interpretation of Biblical "lore" as Cas said the Bible got more wrong than right AND he was there for not only the mudfish but the picking of the homo-sapiens.  

So... in an more all-encompassing theory, God and his shiny red apples created the first man by bestowing a soul on homo-sapiens Adam and Eve.  Thus making them UNIQUE to all of God's creatures and giving them a sentience others did not have.  And then he tested them, and they failed (because apparently Gadreel let Luci in and he talked a good game).  So, in this manner, Adam and Eve were the first humans because God gave them souls and then they fell.  NOW, the next part is evolutionary based, but say God decided, having tested his new "man" that if the species is to survive he'll soul-up some more homo-sapiens elsewhere (say the group that became the Mayans, for example).  And thus more ancient civilizations were created but they all had the original sin.  So... not EVERYONE is descended in a blood line from Adam and Eve, just a portion.  And Sam and Dean apparently were part of the Cain clan.  In this theory, then:

- Adam and Eve were the first to get souls, failed the apple test and ruined it for everyone

- Any other homo-sapiens risen up to "sentient man with souls" were after that and elsewhere (and NOT wiped out completely by the flood)

- Thus the bible is both correct and evolution is both correct and Cain's 1 in 10 is maybe correct (considering that many of his descendants got wiped out in a flood).

BTW: the only thing I'm absolutely sure of is that I put more thought into it than the writers. 

[rue721]

Speaking of the prison, was it just me or did the prisoner have an incredibly heavy Canadian accent? Not as thick as Stephen Amell's (!), but thick.

[DittyDotDot]

BTW: the only thing I'm absolutely sure of is that I put more thought into it than the writers. 

 

Yeah, I know exactly how you feel!

[catrox14]

Speaking of the prison, was it just me or did the prisoner have an incredibly heavy Canadian accent? Not as thick as Stephen Amell's (!), but thick.

 

Wut?  I don't think Stephen has that thick of an accent at all. Every now and then I hear him say organ EYE zation and the occasion Sooory instead of sawrry. LOL.  Sorry I get kind of defensive about Oliver Queen. I'm nearly as protective of Oliver as I am Dean.  But don't even get me started on the WTFery that is s3 of Arrow :(....

[rue721]

Wut?  I don't think Stephen has that thick of an accent at all. Every now and then I hear him say organ EYE zation and the occasion Sooory instead of sawrry. LOL.  Sorry I get kind of defensive about Oliver Queen. I'm nearly as protective of Oliver as I am Dean.  But don't even get me started on the WTFery that is s3 of Arrow :(....

 

I actually find it endearing that Stephen Amell apparently makes no effort to hide his Canadian accent. So in my head!canon, Starling City = Toronto.

 

I used to joke that now that there's so much filming in Canada, all the kids being raised by television are going to grow up sounding like they're from BC instead of LA. But with how things are changing nowadays, maybe most of those raised-by-tv kids will end up sounding like they're from Atlanta.

 

ETA:

 

So, if Starling City is Toronto, I guess that means Central City = Buffalo?!

Edited February 19, 2015 by rue721

[Altered Reality]

Speaking of the prison, was it just me or did the prisoner have an incredibly heavy Canadian accent? Not as thick as Stephen Amell's (!), but thick.

Being a bit nit-picky here, sorry, but there isn't a "Canadian" accent.  I think what you are hearing is a Toronto/Ontario accent.  That said, I didn't notice it. But then, I hear that accent so much I don't think I "hear" is anymore IYSWIM? Now a Newfoundland outport accent?  That I'll notice :D

[Altered Reality]

I've now watched this episode 3 times and I'm still not sure how I feel about it. I think this might be one I have to wait and see how it plays out within the season before I can assess it properly.

Somethings I did like:

The over the shoulder shots driving up to the prison.

Cain's hair!  Who ever mentioned wanting to know what hair product(s) are involved is right on. I need to know :D

Crowley calling out his mother on her con.

Cain's hair.

Dean just falling into Sam.

Cain's hair.

Sam just knowing that Dean is in trouble and the look of worry and almost panic on his face.

Oh and did I mention Cain's hair? ;D

 

What I didn't like

The tween boy (Austin was it?)  I don't know if it was an directing/acting choice made to show us that there was something up with this kid or if the actor is really that bad.  Either way, it bugged.

Sam's hair.

The pace of the "epic" fight.  It just didn't feel epic to me and it should have. I can see what's been mentioned about Dean holding back and the possibility that Demon!Dean is lurking, but I still think it should have been more, I dunno, something. MMV (That said, I did cringe more than a few times when I realized it was JA taking all those falls~ouch!).

Sam's hair.

Crowley being so beaten down by Dean's betrayal/lies.  He really should have been expecting something like this would happen and have had contingency plans in place.  I suppose it's to set up a revenge arc for Crowley against the boys, but right now he just sort of looks pathetic (and yes, Rowena has a point there~even if she's a manipulative, scenery chewing poor excuse of a mother).

Sam's hair.

[catrox14]

I'm not so sure Crowley didn't expect Dean's betrayal tbh.  He was being kind of cagey about it IMO. It reminded me of when he was ambiguous in First Born when the whole thing happened.

 

 I think Crowley was hurt that Dean betrayed him but I don't think he was entirely surprised by it either. Crowley is nothing if not opportunistic.   If Cas has the Blade then Crowley doesn't have to worry about Dean or Rowena or someone else using it on him.  And if Crowley really wanted the Blade he could have just snatched it from Dean's hand and zapped out.  I think Crowley has another scheme afoot because he always does.

Edited February 19, 2015 by catrox14

[ohjoy]

I think Crowley was more insulted by the first lie than the second. I think he more or less expected Dean not to return the blade to him. I think he did not at all expect to learn that he was not "saving" his own hide by being involved in the first place, since he wasn't in Cain's direct line of fire to begin with.

 

The scene with Dean and the others before he goes to confront Cain is pretty telling, IMO. Dean says that they need to stay there to deal with "whatever" comes out of that fight. He basically wants them to promise that they will not hesitate, even if he is that "whatever." Notice that Crowley is standing beside Dean, and Dean looks only at Castiel and Sam as he is talking. Yet Crowley is the only one to respond, as if Dean is talking directly to him. This causes Dean to acknowledge him and gesture for the blade. But the look Dean gives him when he does. I could be reading too much into it, but it seemed a very disgusted side-eye, "that conversation wasn't for you" sort of look, much more than just "give me the blade." But Crowley does not seem to notice. Dean seemed very much in a "I hate you Crowley" state whenever he was forced to interact with him, but Crowley seemed at always take it as "I snark right back atchya." It just seemed that Crowley was thinking this was a love/hate situation, when Dean was totally approaching it as hate/hate, and Crowley didn't get the message until the end.

[rue721]

Dean seemed very much in a "I hate you Crowley" state whenever he was forced to interact with him, but Crowley seemed at always take it as "I snark right back atchya." It just seemed that Crowley was thinking this was a love/hate situation, when Dean was totally approaching it as hate/hate, and Crowley didn't get the message until the end.

 

I'm not sure what Dean was trying to do, because there was no practical reason for him to confess that Crowley being on Cain's hit list was a lie. I actually think it was a kindness, in a weird way? If Dean makes it clear to Crowley that he owns up to it anytime he tries to lie to or manipulate Crowley, it's a way of making it clear that all those other things he's said/done *aren't* lies and manipulations. I think that Dean telling Crowley that he'd lied to him was a way of saying that the rest of the friendship actually isn't all a lie.

 

But I don't think that Crowley took it that way. Afaik, Dean doesn't actually know what's going on with Crowley at the moment? He doesn't know, I don't think, that Crowley happens to be on edge because Rowena has also been lying/betraying him and is telling him that his relationship with Dean is going to be the ruin of him. Dean didn't know that it just happened to be the worst possible time to play Crowley for a fool and then rub it in Crowley's face (though imo it also wasn't his aim to rub it in his face, that's just how Crowley seemed to me to take it).

 

Rowena made a big show about how she was "looking out" for Crowley (when she was advising him early in the episode), and then basically told him he needed to make a choice between her and the Winchesters. Crowley was dubious, and then when Dean called and *also* claimed he was looking out for Crowley (by using the Blade to take out Cain), Crowley chose to side with the Winchesters over Rowena. Only, as Dean confessed after the fight, it turned out that Dean hadn't been looking out for Crowley after all.

 

I think that's what made the confession a big deal for Crowley -- he'd thought that Dean was a better ally than Rowena, but then it turned out that Rowena was right about Dean after all. I think Crowley's going to feel like he's "learned his lesson" about Dean. And at least, for now, I think he's likely to react by siding with Rowena (which of course is what Rowena was going for, by turning him against his friends***). He's going to get played by her, too, obviously, but I think him choosing Rowena for now is going to be coming from a combination of him feeling safer with the "devil he knows" (considering at least he finds Rowena transparent, whereas he didn't realize Dean was lying to him), and feeling disillusioned/upset by Dean playing him.

 

***The funny thing, to me, is that the Winchesters have legitimately been a really good influence on Crowley. I mean, he has obviously messed up their lives pretty badly, but he actually has become a better person the longer he's been around them (and imo that includes him being around Sam, because of how they "connected" at the church in S8). I think that's actually *why* he likes being around them, because he sort of wants to be a better person. I think that's why he originally liked being around Castiel, too.

 

Idk, I think Crowley could be a really interesting character, because he's a demon from Hell who corrupts everyone who he comes into contact with, but I actually think that's the *opposite* of what he truly wants to happen. I think what he would really want to happen is for him to be around these good people and for them to make him good somehow, but what ends up happening is that he's around these good people and he makes them bad like he is. And I guess in some sense, he's OK with that outcome, too, because at least then they're "the same"? But I think that once he thinks they're bad (like he is), that makes him hate/despise them, too. Which is why he's so dismissive toward Cas now, imo.

 

I think that's all interesting and even his storyline right now is pretty interesting -- EXCEPT that imo it doesn't make any sense in terms of being a storyline about the King of Hell or an ultra-powerful and ancient demon. I wish the show would just make him human (or maybe a witch, like his mother?) since imo the storylines would make so much more sense in that context. I know some people don't even like parent/child or (natal) family SLs for adult characters, but I personally do, so I think even the Rowena storyline in particular would be improved by that, though of course, YMMV.

[cassandle]

What I didn't like

The tween boy (Austin was it?)  I don't know if it was an directing/acting choice made to show us that there was something up with this kid or if the actor is really that bad.  Either way, it bugged.

 

I don't know if it's true or not but I've decided that the kid sucked because he was a glamour and not a real boy because, yeah, his line readings were terrible.

[AwesomO4000]

I don't know if it's true or not but I've decided that the kid sucked because he was a glamour and not a real boy because, yeah, his line readings were terrible.

 

I agree. If Trickster magic was easy, everyone would do it. I, myself, thought "wow that kid is a terrible actor: what the heck? They're usually better at picking them... ohhh he was only a trick, okay." I guess that you can fake what someone looks like in a glamor, but getting the voice, cadence, emotion, etc. right rather than it sounding like a robot pretending to be a person is not quite as easy.

[mertensia]

Yeah I figured it was because the kid was a spell, too.

[Tippi Blevins]

I wrote this for SueB to say thanks for helping me with a project.

 

So Cain could be dead or just gone now
Soon to appear with a quirked brow.
It's a show that revives
Many dozens of lives
And leaves you ponder the "just how?"

[SueB]

Thanks Tippi!

[catrox14]

Okay, so I was listening to a podcast (The Crossroads) in which they have posited that Dean did not kill Cain because Dean is afraid of it unleashing the monster. They made a very valid point that if Cain still has the Mark which it seems he did then why would the Mark let him die now since the Mark didn't let the Blade kill him when he tried.to kill himself.   And that Cain is actually grooming Dean to become his minion. That he's going to keep luring Dean to fights to become used to feeling the power.  Kind of like Anakin Skywalker with Emperor Palpatine. And that Cain's speech about Dean killing Crowley, Cas and Sam....was telling the end of the show.  And man.....they have me convinced.

[supposebly]

I'm not sure you're happy about that prospect, catrox14, but I distinctly heard a sound as if Dean pulled the blade out of flesh. And the thing had blood on it when he came down the stairs. Granted, both are circumstantial in that this doesn't necessarily mean that the blade actually killed Cain but that ascribes the writers quite some cleverness and forward-thinking, which I haven't seen in a very long while from them.

 

And if that were really the plan for the end of the show, they can really go f--ck themselves, excuse my French. That does not sound like a show ending that I would be on board with. Quite the contrary. That pretty much equals terrible character assassination to me.

 

I agree it makes no sense that the blade couldn't kill Cain before, but maybe it had to be done by someone who also has the mark, suicide by blade doesn't work. The whole thing sort of hinges about being the father of murder, not the father of suicide, no?

[catrox14]

Well, the show 5 years ago foreshadowed the ending with the Cain and Abel thing.  If Dean kills Sam it would have to be to save him. 

[rue721]

No way, they're not going to end the show with Dean slaughtering everybody! Jeez, what is is this Titus Andronicus? I want the writers to take the show seriously, but maybe not Shakespearean-level seriously :P.

 

But yeah that would be completely sickening, I can't imagine they would actually plan to go out like that. Not even for a season finale, let alone a series finale. That's just too horrific. For the most part imo the people who make the show love SPN and they love the characters as much as any of the fans do, so I don't think they would just piss all over it all that way.

 

ETA:

I'm never one to say "I'd quit watching the show over that!" because the truth is that it's Year 10 and if I'm watching now, I'll almost definitely be watching until it's over.

 

But if they show Dean slaughtering Sam, Cas, and Crowley, it would be sickening and I honestly do think I'd have a hard time coming back to watch the show after that. Not as a protest or anything, but because that would just turn my stomach too much. Way too dark for me. YMMV.

Edited February 25, 2015 by rue721

[catrox14]

If you think about Cain's dialogue it's kind of intriguing in a totally horrible way.

 

Cain: It's called the Mark of Cain for a reason! First, first you'd kill Crowley -- there'd be some strange mixed feelings on that one, but you'd have your reason, get it done, no remorse. And then you'd kill the angel Castiel, now that one, that I suspect would hurt something awful. And then! Then would come the murder you'd never survive, the one that would finally turn you into as a much of a savage as it did me...
Dean: No.
Cain: Your brother, Sam. The only thing standing between you and that destiny is this Blade. You're welcome my son.

 

That's some pretty dark  shit right there.  But being SPN I think it Dean would subvert it somehow.

 

I'm horribly intrigued

[SueB]

I think Cain's dead.  I did a thing: http://snazzyo.tumblr.com/post/111711037040/execution-style-the-manner-of-cains-death  on Tumblr with pictures explaining why I think the whole thing was set up to look like a ritual execution. 

[catrox14]

There might have been blood and the squishy sound but that doesn't mean Cain is dead. Until the show flatout says he's dead I'm going with he's only mostly dead. 

 

Also, I would think since Cain was a demon he would have lit up all red or glowy in some way when he was killed and we never saw any kind of unusual light reflecting on Dean's face as he killed him. 

Edited February 25, 2015 by catrox14

[Demented Daisy]

I think if they can get Tim Omundson again, Cain won't be dead.  But until then, I think the show will treat him like he's dead.

Edited February 25, 2015 by Demented Daisy

[mertensia]

Cain doesn't -didn't - seem to know that Dean had died, gone demon and been cured. I wonder if his speech would have been different if he had?

[rue721]

I wonder what would have happened if they'd tried to cure Cain?

[DittyDotDot]

Cain: It's called the Mark of Cain for a reason! First, first you'd kill Crowley -- there'd be some strange mixed feelings on that one, but you'd have your reason, get it done, no remorse. And then you'd kill the angel Castiel, now that one, that I suspect would hurt something awful. And then! Then would come the murder you'd never survive, the one that would finally turn you into as a much of a savage as it did me...

 

I think the important part of the dialogue is what I bolded. I think Cain is telling Dean how to keep from becoming a savage like he did. Don't kill your brother.

[catrox14]

Cain doesn't -didn't - seem to know that Dean had died, gone demon and been cured. I wonder if his speech would have been different if he had?

 

I think Cain knows all about Dean. I don't think it would have changed anything.  It doesn't change that Dean has the MoC now and is still dealing with how it's affecting him.

 

 

I've been wondering why Dean, if he's completely cured of being a demon, isn't more sick when he doesn't kill like what was happening to him before he was killed which makes me think he still has enough demon juice inside him to withstand the effects of the Mark.

 

I was thinking about  the normal (not SPN) lore about Cain in that whoever kills Cain is now marked by God for death.  So if the show has that in mind, then Dean should  now  be on God's smite list.  Alternately, if Dean is the new Cain, then whoever kills Dean is going to be on God's smite list.

Edited February 25, 2015 by catrox14

[catrox14]

I wonder what would have happened if they'd tried to cure Cain?

 

This brings up a point of how would Cain get out of the devil's trap in that barn?  But curing him would have been interesting.

 

And I agree that they left it open in the event of being able to get Omundson again.

Edited February 25, 2015 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

I've been wondering why Dean, if he's completely cured of being a demon, isn't more sick when he doesn't kill like what was happening to him before he was killed which makes me think he still has enough demon juice inside him to withstand the effects of the Mark.

 

Well, he didn't start hacking things up and feel the need to kill until after he killed Abaddon. I think he needs a big-game kill to start that cycle...I'm imagining he will start having some of those effects now that he's killed Cain, though.

[rue721]

This brings up a point of how would Cain get out of the devil's trap in that barn?  But curing him would have been interesting.

 

And I agree that they left it open in the event of being able to get Omundson again.

 

Yeah, funny that it didn't come up, right? This MoC stuff is interesting, but I feel like I don't have a handle on the "lore" at all.

 

Cain wasn't acting like a demon really? It was more like he was "smiting" people, not so much that he was going around massacring them for the fun of it. Which is still maybe evil, but not demon-y evil. And I guess he's had a long time to get things under control, but he's not as old as Lilith or anything, there are older demons than he is who are still completely evil.

 

It makes sense to me that a demon would be able to be "rehabilitated" at least somewhat and that everyone reacts differently to becoming one (and still retains some of their personality or priorities or even values), since they were human souls and it was only torture that made them demons in the first place (afaik?). (Though how did Cain or even Dean become demons?!). But I don't feel like I "get" demons yet. I say after six or seven years of watching them on this show. Yeah well, slow on the uptake.

 

I've been wondering why Dean, if he's completely cured of being a demon, isn't more sick when he doesn't kill like what was happening to him before he was killed which makes me think he still has enough demon juice inside him to withstand the effects of the Mark.

 

Yeah, wondering that, too.

 

At first I thought he maybe was just faking having been cured, but evidently not. Ugh I don't get how this is supposed to work. So when they went to that showdown, everybody but Crowley could walk in and out of the devil's trap? And meanwhile, Crowley is getting all heartbroken over Dean's honesty/lies and his mother. WHAT DOES BEING A DEMON EVEN MEAN.

 

I think the important part of the dialogue is what I bolded. I think Cain is telling Dean how to keep from becoming a savage like he did. Don't kill your brother.

 

I think Cain is sort of being Cassandra here. Or, it's sort of like the Oedipus story (in terms of how fate works! not father-killing/mother-fucking!) where everything that people do to keep the prophesy from coming true is exactly what makes it come true.

 

What I'm wondering about is whether Dean will (inadvertently/mistakenly) kill Sam and Cas will trade his own life for Sam's, or Dean will have to kill his brother for some larger reason and Cas will stand in as his "brother" (in Sam's place). Both those things are kind of corny, maybe? But I do think that what Cain was saying is liable to come true -- just that how it comes true might be surprising.

[RileyMay]

Well, he didn't start hacking things up and feel the need to kill until after he killed Abaddon. I think he needs a big-game kill to start that cycle...I'm imagining he will start having some of those effects now that he's killed Cain, though.

If Dean doesn't start experiencing the effects of the mark like last time does that mean that Cain isn't dead?

[catrox14]

If Dean doesn't start experiencing the effects of the mark like last time does that mean that Cain isn't dead?

 

Good question. Or does it mean that Dean has enough demon juice to control it?

[RileyMay]

Good question. Or does it mean that Dean has enough demon juice to control it?

Killing Cain should have a greater effect on the mark than killing Abaddon and I don't think Dean would have anywhere near enough demon juice left to control that.

And I really don't want Cain to be dead.

[catrox14]

Dean (Jensen) driving Baby into the prison. 

 

Dear gods.  WTF? How is this person real? Why is this so freaking hot?

 

[SueB]

I think I just figured something out.  About WHY Dean was so insistent that Crowley know he lied.  And why he made sure Crowley didn't have the Blade.  He wants Crowley as far away from himself as possible.  Cain said, 'First they'll be Crowley..."  I think Dean believes that if he pushes Crowley away and doesn't see him, he won't go on to kill Cas and Sam.  Because Cain said Crowley would be first.

What better way to avoid killing the ones he loves than to try and make sure he doesn't see Crowley again.  Giving Cas the Blade makes a ton of sense for a variety of reasons, BUT if Crowley doesn't have the Blade, Crowley has no role in Dean's life.  

 

Dean went out of his way to be an asshole to Crowley, which is par. But the lying bit...that's really important to Crowley and Dean made sure he told Crowley he did it twice.  It's a good plan.  

 

But if I'm right, this means Dean is acting as if he thinks Cain may be right.  

[catrox14]

I think I just figured something out.  About WHY Dean was so insistent that Crowley know he lied.  And why he made sure Crowley didn't have the Blade.  He wants Crowley as far away from himself as possible.  Cain said, 'First they'll be Crowley..."  I think Dean believes that if he pushes Crowley away and doesn't see him, he won't go on to kill Cas and Sam.  Because Cain said Crowley would be first.

What better way to avoid killing the ones he loves than to try and make sure he doesn't see Crowley again.  Giving Cas the Blade makes a ton of sense for a variety of reasons, BUT if Crowley doesn't have the Blade, Crowley has no role in Dean's life.  

 

Dean went out of his way to be an asshole to Crowley, which is par. But the lying bit...that's really important to Crowley and Dean made sure he told Crowley he did it twice.  It's a good plan.  

 

But if I'm right, this means Dean is acting as if he thinks Cain may be right.  

 

Oh I think Dean completely believes his soul is doomed and will kill them all.   He said "No. Never" to killing Sam but surely he can't forget that John told him he would have to save Sammy or kill him... which is kind of a cool if terrifying call back to the very beginning of the show.  If Cain is right and Dean's life is in reverse of his, then Dean will have to kill Sammy to save him.

Edited March 2, 2015 by catrox14

[7kstar]

I really thought that moment was really transparent but Crowley is so off balanced that he would never see it.  He's also the one that might have figured out what Dean might be hiding.

 

Cas and Sam don't usually see some of Dean's behaviors but Crowley has called him on it many times.  So what better way to keep something to himself but to get rid of the one person that could rat him out right then.  It's a solid plan  especially if Cain isn't dead.  I can dream can't I?????  lol

 

I really wish someone would ask Jensen if he thought that Cain was really dead...I'm still kind of hoping he isn't.

[dragonsbite]

"The Executioner's Song" is an interesting name, particularly if it's based on the Norman Mailer novel.  In Wikipedia, there's a quote by Mailer that seems rather pertinent:

 

Mailer said that [the executed man, topic of the book] "appealed to me because he embodied many of the themes I've been living with all my life long." In another interview, he asserted that perhaps the most important theme of the book is that "we have profound choices to make in life, and one of them may be the deep and terrible choice most of us avoid between dying now and ‘saving one's soul."

 

This tells me that Dean might have to die (again) to save his soul from the MoC.  Or maybe the episode intended for us to apply that sentiment toward Cain, who did indeed seem to let Dean kill him in the end.

[DittyDotDot]

Well, Cain did say he was saving the folks he killed.

[catrox14]

So I've been thinking that Dean didn't kill Cain. I think he doesn't know that he didn't kill Cain.   It just sticks in my craw that we didn't see him die, we didn't see that red demon glare of death and Dean not being totally overcome by the Blade and the Mark. 

 

Something is rotten in Kansas

[SueB]

So the squish of the blade going in and out wasn't enough?

[catrox14]

So the squish of the blade going in and out wasn't enough?

 

Correct.  Cain was a demon. Why wouldn't the most powerful demon that we know of show the glow when he was killed?  Why would only one stab of the Blade kill him? Why is not Dean not becoming totally uncontrollable now? And since Cain has the Mark why wouldn't it resurrect him like it did when he tried to kill himself or when Dean killed him?  If the Mark is attached to the Blade why would it let the Blade kill him?  Is it only because another bearer of the Mark used the Blade to kill him?

[rue721]

So I've been thinking that Dean didn't kill Cain. I think he doesn't know that he didn't kill Cain.   It just sticks in my craw that we didn't see him die, we didn't see that red demon glare of death and Dean not being totally overcome by the Blade and the Mark. 

 

Something is rotten in Kansas

 

Dude I know but I thought the same thing when Demon!Dean's ~cure~ was signaled (so anticlimactically) by just a change in Dean's facial expression. I was like BULLSHIT a demon can look bummed out, he could TOTALLY still be a demon! But uh. He wasn't. So I'm thinking that Cain is dead...unless they need him for something or get TO back, in which case he'll probably be miraculously resurrected. Or at least show up in a flashback or something.

 

It was anticlimactic to not see Cain's head roll or even find out what happens to his soul now, and a complete waste of a really interesting character, but I guess that's just how this show does. In fact, Cain's death sentence was probably signed as soon as he proved himself to be really interesting! If only he'd been hideous and boring, like Metatron, he'd probably be alive even now. Le sigh. 

[SueB]

 

Why would only one stab of the Blade kill him?

Sever the spinal cord at the neck.  It'll get the job done (like Jake and Sam in All Hell Breaks Loose, Pt 1).  

As for why the Blade works on Cain -- pffft...a wizard did it.  Seriously, that's all we got. Cain said it would kill him (when he was sane), so I'm taking it as a given it did in fact kill him.

 

I completely agree that if they chose to bring back Cain they could. But I think we are meant to understand that Dean at least believes the dude is dead.  As for whether or not Dean got amp'd up....IDK.  Dean is NOT okay.  Sam knows that. But maybe he's gotten used to the rush of the kill and is no longer losing his mind over it.  And who knows about what it's doing to his human physiology.  Maybe he'll start the yak-attack again next episode.  Or IS Dean fully human anymore?

 

Seriously, that's MY biggest question.  Say Cain never showed up.  Would Dean have aged to 90 and keeled over from a heart attack after all that cholesterol, and then been a wrinkly old demon?  Or did he stop aging once his body had been healed while being a demon.  It's his own soul that twisted and untwisted. Vice a temporary possession by a separate entity. Does a twisted soul = immortality and an untwisted soul = death at some point?  I think the show has enough wiggle room that they could say Dean isn't experiencing the yak-attack because his body permanently changed when he died.  OR, they could just put him right back on the yakking rollercoaster.  No clue.  Hope we get an answer.  

[rue721]

Does a twisted soul = immortality and an untwisted soul = death at some point?  I think the show has enough wiggle room that they could say Dean isn't experiencing the yak-attack because his body permanently changed when he died.  OR, they could just put him right back on the yakking rollercoaster.  No clue.  Hope we get an answer.  

 

I think the actual soul, whether twisted or not, is immortal. (Unless it's in a demon that gets stabbed by the demon blade, apparently?).

 

I think that demons can keep a body *animated* while they're possessing it. But that body isn't necessarily alive. It's just being worn by the demon, like a fur coat? I think that's why they call it a "meat suit." (That was also the basic explanation why it's (supposedly) OK that the guys just stab possessed people willy-nilly nowadays, iIrc).

 

Dean and Cain were the only ones who could heal spontaneously, regular demons can't do that. Maybe it's because the Mark's power comes from Lucifer, and he's an angel, so he and the people using his power via the Mark have the power to heal?

 

The show took some pains I *think* (though am not sure?) in this episode to show that Dean's knuckles were all cut up from the fight, so he's apparently not healing spontaneously anymore, like he was when he was a demon. I think that his soul is immortal whether it's human or demon or whatever, but his body only heals spontaneously when it's being "animated" by the Mark/Lucifer's power? Or at least that's my patched together semi-explanation, lol.

 

ETA:

If he heals when he's plugged in to the Mark's power, then that would mean that he *wasn't* plugging into the Mark's power when he killed Cain. So I don't think he was amped up when he killed him (and he didn't act amped up, either).

Edited March 5, 2015 by rue721

[rue721]

Oh and also, maybe he's not getting sick and yakking up his guts right now because he *hasn't* been plugging into the Mark's power? I think the power feels good to him at the time, and it does make him stronger in the moment that he's using it, but his body can't handle that much or that kind of power. So every time he used it, he was stronger *right then,* but it was also destroying his body long term.

 

Maybe, if he were to destroy his body too much over the course of a period of time, by accessing the Mark's power too frequently, maybe he'd get to the point of needing to access the Mark's power and extra "strength" just to survive? I think that's the state he was getting to near the end of S9.

[catrox14]

 

If he heals when he's plugged in to the Mark's power, then that would mean that he *wasn't* plugging into the Mark's power when he killed Cain. So I don't think he was amped up when he killed him (and he didn't act amped up, either).

 

How could he kill Cain without plugging into the power of the Mark? The Blade and the Mark is what made Dean powerful enough to kill Abaddon and Cain was supposedly exponentially more powerful than Abaddon. 

[AwesomO4000]

I thought that it was power of the mark + being a demon that allowed Dean to spontaneously heal. Because Dean had the mark for a while after he killed Abaddon and before he became a demon, and I don't  remember him doing any spontaneous healing, but he was apparently affected by / tuned into the mark's power because it was making him sick if he didn't kill.

[catrox14]

Yeah I think Dean's healing powers were because he had been resurrected by the Mark. But whether it was being a demon or not...I don't know.  I still don't understand why the Mark turned Dean into a demon when the Mark is of an archangel not a demon.  I'm so confused. That's why I think Crowley had a lot more to do with Dean becoming a demon than the Mark did.  Like was it because Crowley put the Blade in Dean's hand that made it happen? Did Crowley maybe use a spell on Dean that we don't yet know about? 

 

Why am I thinking about this so much?

[rue721]

How could he kill Cain without plugging into the power of the Mark? The Blade and the Mark is what made Dean powerful enough to kill Abaddon and Cain was supposedly exponentially more powerful than Abaddon. 

 

I think that Cain had to be killed by the Blade, but I think that it was Dean in particular who had to wield it, not because nobody else would have been strong enough (at least theoretically) to kill Cain, but because Dean is Cain's successor. Imo it mattered that Cain chose him and gave him the Mark, it was a passing of the torch. It wasn't that Dean needed to actually use the Mark's juice right then in the confrontation. Cain was more powerful than Abaddon, but with Cain it was an execution, it wasn't a real fight like it was with Abaddon.

 

The main reason I don't think that the Mark was getting activated during Dean's fight with Cain was because Dean wasn't acting juiced up. He looked pretty upset and asked Cain not to make him kill him. He clearly didn't lose control in there. Even when he came out, he was upset, but basically fine.

 

I still don't understand why the Mark turned Dean into a demon when the Mark is of an archangel not a demon.

 

Lucifer was the one who created demons in the first place. So I don't think it's strange that a human branding himself as Lucifer's property (because that's what a brand like the Mark *is* right? a way of marking your property?), and letting Lucifer's power flow through him as he kills, would also eventually become a demon. That *does* seem like it would corrupt the soul.

 

But the actual *process* of going from human to demon? Or why Cain and Dean were apparently "special" demons somehow? Not just with the healing -- Cain didn't even really act like a demon in terms of his "evildoing." I don't get it at all.

 

Sam knows Lucifer better than anybody, and I really hope that that at least comes into play. They're not really mentioning it, but the connection to Lucifer is what I would expect to drive Sam absolutely bonkers and more eager than anybody (even Dean, maybe) to get the Mark off his brother. Or...does Sam even know about that? Did Dean ever tell him the Cain/Abel story that Cain told him in First Born?