All Episodes Talk: What's Up Doc?

[readster]

7 hours ago, PepSinger said:

I still — to this day— do not understand how Romano was made Chief of the ER. WTF? 

I never got this at all. I mean, Kerry wanted the position, was constantly working to the position. Mark, Doug and Carol all pointed out that Kerry wanted to be more of an administrator at times than being on the floor. I mean, I get that Anspaugh was dealing with Scotty's death and he wanted to be around his daughter more since she was approaching her teens and even Donald knew she would not want her father around all the time. However, Romono was so "Surgery is the best as long as you have insurance." Then when he took over the ER, especially when he mentioned to Mark one time: "I haven't done an emergency department shift since I had a pony tail and a lava lamp." Why the hell would he want to run the department? Hell, he treated the ER like it was the OR department from how he viewed patiences to how the staff were "dumb". I mean he loses and arm, blames the world for things and that's WHEN Anspaugh finally kicked him off his position and gave it to Kerry. To even the point that Susan said Kerry should have been there a long time ago. 

The writers wanted drama and basically wanted to focus on how assholes get to be put in charge and the people who want the position, would do well in the position and be a mid point between administrator and co-worker was just looked at as a: "Fuck you, be happy with the job you have."

[Kel Varnsen]

12 hours ago, Heathen said:

He could have; there are "boutique" doctors who don't take insurance. But remember, County doctors are far superior in every way to those self-centered, less skilled, not as intelligent private practice/other hospital doctors. /snark I'm sure the writers just wanted to demonstrate that Romano, although he was an ass in many ways, was one of the County elites and thus he continued to treat those free-loading bottom-feeders. /also snark 

The first time Romano was mentioned on the show, Benton says he's never met Romano because "the man's in Europe ten months out of the year." Funny how Romano's apparent international renown went by the wayside when the writers needed someone to be the token bully/misogynist/human resources nightmare. 

I didn't remember the Europe line. The funny thing is that if Romano was working in Europe, odds are he would be working somewhere where insured vs uninsured patients wouldn't really be a thing.

[debraran]

1 hour ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I didn't remember the Europe line. The funny thing is that if Romano was working in Europe, odds are he would be working somewhere where insured vs uninsured patients wouldn't really be a thing.

Probably a throw-a-way line like many in the beginning. If he was in Europe too much you'd think he would have talked about it with Elizabeth. He did tell Benton he did the extra jobs in the south for extra money and must have treated many poor people. I didn't mind those episodes since they only encompassed a couple. 

I was reading an Noah interview where he said he was just awful to a lot of costars, Kelly Martin being the worst and he owed a big apology too. He said Mallucci was on his radar, Cleo (I forgive him) and Kovac. He was jealous of him since he did stage and Hamlet and was, he felt a better actor. (his scripts weren't as good though) I liked how the interviewer discovered HULU and the new fans.

 

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/noah-wyle-career-retrospective-interview-er-red-line-1203292

 

Edited December 24, 2020 by debraran

[Heathen]

1 hour ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I didn't remember the Europe line. The funny thing is that if Romano was working in Europe, odds are he would be working somewhere where insured vs uninsured patients wouldn't really be a thing.

I wouldn't have remembered that line if I hadn't spent part of my covid break rewatching the early seasons. It was season four or five, I think -- before the show went so over the top with character portrayals. 

 

[Danny Franks]

15 hours ago, readster said:

Then when he took over the ER, especially when he mentioned to Mark one time: "I haven't done an emergency department shift since I had a pony tail and a lava lamp." Why the hell would he want to run the department? 

More than that - how was he even qualified to run the department? Emergency medicine, as ER showed time and again, was a unique speciality that required a set of skills and a temperament that not everyone had. A surgical genius who was used to spending hours in an OR doing complex, intricate surgical procedures does not seem like he would have the required skills or mentality to run the ER.

It just smacked of bad writing - a way to keep Romano involved after the dumb decision to have him lose his arm and a way of injecting lame, antagonistic drama into the show.

[readster]

8 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

More than that - how was he even qualified to run the department? Emergency medicine, as ER showed time and again, was a unique speciality that required a set of skills and a temperament that not everyone had. A surgical genius who was used to spending hours in an OR doing complex, intricate surgical procedures does not seem like he would have the required skills or mentality to run the ER.

It just smacked of bad writing - a way to keep Romano involved after the dumb decision to have him lose his arm and a way of injecting lame, antagonistic drama into the show.

I agree, it didn't make sense and in the early years, it showed that everyone in the staff didn't have "super medical knowledge". I mean, you had some of the nurses who didn't have knowledge of certain procedures. You had it at times when the doctors missed something, because they were either not aware of it, or didn't know how to look for it. It wasn't say like Ross missing the bone tumor in one kid that Benton found in like 4 minutes when he looked at the old x-rays. Of course being a "black kid" Benton did a more deeper check. Unlike say Mark who missed the preclampsy which, the other doctors saw but then were: "oh we can't say anything he's the chief resident, he should know." It was like Ramono, he was so: "I hate poor people who suck the system dry." Then if he got caught, he put the blame on someone else and at what point doesn't a higher administrator say: "You stop this, or you can go look for another job someplace." Oh no, let's promote him when he has no reason to be in charge and then once he turns into: "Oh my life just sucks not, fuck you everyone, even the people who care about me." That's when they demote him or as Anspaugh later went: "I should have never gave him the job." No, Ramono should have NEVER BEEN OFFERED the job. 

[Kel Varnsen]

9 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

More than that - how was he even qualified to run the department? Emergency medicine, as ER showed time and again, was a unique speciality that required a set of skills and a temperament that not everyone had. A surgical genius who was used to spending hours in an OR doing complex, intricate surgical procedures does not seem like he would have the required skills or mentality to run the ER.

It just smacked of bad writing - a way to keep Romano involved after the dumb decision to have him lose his arm and a way of injecting lame, antagonistic drama into the show.

It didn't make sense but I guess precedent was set because Morganstern was head of surgery and the ER. 

Also on a side note I watched the first Carter goes to Africa episode and find it kind of funny that with all the Alias actors that have shown up on ER that the fake Doctors without borders is called The Alliance.

[readster]

1 hour ago, Kel Varnsen said:

It didn't make sense but I guess precedent was set because Morganstern was head of surgery and the ER. 

How true, but at the same time when Anspaugh came in, Morganstern was like in panic mode, since he figured Donald was going to demote him straight to the ER and keep him out of surgery, which ended up not happening, it was Morganstern's heartattack and other issues that caused him to fold up at County. I just found it stupid that Anspaugh would both let Romano slide, but then would smack him upside the head when he screwed up. It wasn't a double standard it was more of a: "Then don't let him run the show or tell him you will be watching him more no matter what his history was." I mean the only other reason he basically didn't let Kerry go full time ER chief was because half the staff was hating her and she was to stuck in her own personal drama crap that Donald didn't like. But once again, if anyone should have been given the ER chief position at the time it should have been Benton as he pretty much was in the role of Morganstern since the show started and had learned a lot of tough lessons in a short period of time. Hell, Benton could have cut his schedule down more for Reese since he would have been an admin. 

[doodlebug]

On 12/23/2020 at 11:40 PM, Kel Varnsen said:

So I finished season 9 tonight and after watching the episodes where Romano is in charge of the ER, it really got me wondering, why does he work at county? He clearly has no interest in trying to help people with no insurance and is happy to give great service to those who do. He seemed to have the same attitude before his accident. Now I don't know exactly how the US system works, but couldn't he just get a job at a hospital where only people with insurance can go?

There are almost no hospitals in the US where that is the case.  Amongst other things, there is a federal law called EMTALA (emergency medical treatment and labor act) which requires any hospital accepting federal funds, which is basically any full service hospital, treat any patient who arrives at the hospital and requests emergency treatment or is in labor.  The hospital is not allowed to turn the patient away and may not send them to another hospital unless the patient's condition is something not treated there.  For example, not every hospital has a maternity service, so, if a woman in labor arrives at such a hospital, it is allowed for her to be transferred to another facility which has an obstetric service.  A child who comes to an ER and needs admitted, can be transferred to a hospital with a pediatric unit if one isn't available in the hospital where he presented.  Therefore, it makes no sense at all for Romano to complain about uninsured patients in the ER, they cannot be turned away and do not have to pay a nickel up front.  That is why Benton filed the EMTALA complaint against Romano; he knew it was illegal for Romano to refuse care to the patient and that both Romano and the hospital would be in major trouble with the federal government.

Also, Romano was a general surgeon, seemingly a specialist in trauma surgery.  Trauma patients don't choose to have emergency surgery and, obviously, they don't plan ahead and make sure they have insurance first.  In the US, as in other countries, the 'typical' trauma patient is a young adult male; the demographic group least likely to have health insurance, let alone private coverage.   For that matter, as a general surgeon, Romano would be doing a lot of surgery on the elderly and that means Medicare, another government supported program that pays less than private coverage.

County, by virtue of the fact that it is government owned and located in the inner city is going to have a patient mix that is going to skew towards federal insurance (Medicaid) and uninsured patients. County hospitals also tend to offer care that is expensive but not reimbursed well by private insurers such as burn units and trauma rehab.  Hospitals in more affluent areas will have more insured patients and will probably not offer services that aren't likely to break even or better.

Romano, as an administrator, would certainly keep an eye on the bottom line knowing that there is a limited amount of money coming from the county taxes to make up for unreimbursed care.  We saw Kerry considering budgetary issues, too.  But, as far as his own bottom line.  Every doctor who works at a County hospital is employed by that hospital; most do not allow private practice docs on their medical staff.  Romano would probably receive a bonus each year based on his productivity (usually a fraction of the amount collected from his patients above a certain baseline).  I worked as a county employed doc for a couple of years and the pay was just fine; I had been in private practice before joining the county and got a significant pay raise going from private to public., almost 20% more.  The show makes it seem like County docs are suffering financially, they are not.

Edited December 25, 2020 by doodlebug

[doodlebug]

7 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

It didn't make sense but I guess precedent was set because Morganstern was head of surgery and the ER. 

Also on a side note I watched the first Carter goes to Africa episode and find it kind of funny that with all the Alias actors that have shown up on ER that the fake Doctors without borders is called The Alliance.

In Morganstern's case, he could've 'grandfathered' in.  Emergency medicine was not considered a separate specialty until the early 1970's which is when the first ER residencies were begun.  It wasn't until 1978 that Emergency Medicine became a recognized specialty by the American Board of Medical Specialties which allowed docs to become board certified in the specialty.  Prior to that, the ER was usually staffed by other practitioners, internists or surgeons in many cases, who often went to work in the ER to earn extra money and found out they liked it and had an affinity for it and made it the core of their medical practice.  Those doctors were the original ER docs even though they were board certified as internists, pediatricians, general surgeons and the like.  When EM became a specialty, doctors who worked primarily in the ER and were therefore ER specialists, were offered the opportunity to apply for board certification in Emergency Medicine without doing another residency or taking another board exam.  They were 'grandfathered' into the specialty in recognition of their expertise and contributions to the field.  Since ER debuted in 1994, anyone who had been in practice for 15 years or more couldn't have done an ER residency, they didn't exist.  I figure Morganstern was one of those guys, a general surgeon who took shifts in the ER regularly and probably introduced some surgical techniques to the ER like insertion of central lines, chest tubes, paracentesis (belly taps) and therefore was placed in charge of the ER residency because he was one of the pioneers in the field.

[Kel Varnsen]

14 hours ago, doodlebug said:

There are almost no hospitals in the US where that is the case.  Amongst other things, there is a federal law called EMTALA (emergency medical treatment and labor act) which requires any hospital accepting federal funds, which is basically any full service hospital, treat any patient who arrives at the hospital and requests emergency treatment or is in labor.  The hospital is not allowed to turn the patient away and may not send them to another hospital unless the patient's condition is something not treated there.  For example, not every hospital has a maternity service, so, if a woman in labor arrives at such a hospital, it is allowed for her to be transferred to another facility which has an obstetric service.  A child who comes to an ER and needs admitted, can be transferred to a hospital with a pediatric unit if one isn't available in the hospital where he presented.  Therefore, it makes no sense at all for Romano to complain about uninsured patients in the ER, they cannot be turned away and do not have to pay a nickel up front.  That is why Benton filed the EMTALA complaint against Romano; he knew it was illegal for Romano to refuse care to the patient and that both Romano and the hospital would be in major trouble with the federal government.

So what happens in cases where someone is injured or sick but stable and is given an option for medical treatment and a more expensive surgical option. If they go to county can they demand the surgical option even if they know they can't pay for it. Didn't we kind of see that with Mark and his experimental New York cancer treatment? Could any person regardless of insurance/wealth ask for and receive that treatment?

[debraran]

Watching the show where Romano does show some compassion in his extreme curtness during his day in the ER and almost burns his arm off at night.  Lizzie almost shows more tears than she did with Mark from her first encounter looking at his previous wound that day that needed to be debrided to her talk with him by the water later after the burn. She gives up a ride with the new "hunky" doctor when she sees Romano alone and encourages him to not cut yet but he is determined. They keep showing her eyes and their connection is stronger than the flirtation with the doc or most others. Very strange how they had them so connected and did little with it. She always saw the man under the snark, she always saw the depression, she was the only one who knew he couldn't exist the same way he had been.

I FF thorough the funeral of Gamma and Abby's brother and Carter always trying to find her and the constant apologies on both sides.  He goes to Africa and she shuns him on return and then doesn’t want him to go back.  So Jr High writing.  
I like Galant a lot and wish they did more with him, I especially liked his first encounters with Kerry and his ambulance ride with her. It was well done and he fit the character well. Even Romano saw his potential. 

Edited December 27, 2020 by debraran

[doodlebug]

On 12/26/2020 at 8:55 AM, Kel Varnsen said:

So what happens in cases where someone is injured or sick but stable and is given an option for medical treatment and a more expensive surgical option. If they go to county can they demand the surgical option even if they know they can't pay for it. Didn't we kind of see that with Mark and his experimental New York cancer treatment? Could any person regardless of insurance/wealth ask for and receive that treatment?

It depends on the circumstance.  Even insured patients cannot always demand the most expensive option.  There are often pros and cons to be considered over an above the price.  For example, I am a gynecologist.  I often see patients having problems with their periods.  After evaluating and being sure that there isn't a cancer present; there are often several medical options and even a couple of minor surgeries that will usually solve the problem.  Some patients want to skip all of that and just have a hysterectomy; but hysterectomy is not considered to be first line treatment for most menstrual problems.  That means, that even if it would solve the problem and the patient wants it; their insurance might refuse to pay for it.  Also, hospitals have boards of review that look at elective surgeries and, if I was to perform a hysterectomy on a woman as the first option; I would receive a strongly worded letter telling me that I need to try other options first since hysterectomy is a last choice.  If I keep doing hysterectomies without documenting other failed treatments having been attempted first; I could lose my surgical privileges.  It is unethical to perform 'unnecessary' surgery.

And, yes, all things being equal, indigent patients need to be offered all options for treatment for their problems, including surgery if that is one of them.  It doesn't matter if they are at the County hospital or any other hospital.  Once again, EMTALA requires that every patient receive the appropriate medical care for their condition without consideration of their ability to pay.  Hospitals write of millions of dollars in unreimbursed care all the time.  The only exception is for elective procedures.  For example, a woman cannot get her tubes tied without paying for it.  Cosmetic surgeries are also not covered except in the case of trauma requiring cosmetic surgery as part of the treatment.  So, a kid that gets bitten by a dog can have a plastic surgeon repair the injury and it will be written off.  But a woman who wants larger breasts is going to have to pay cash.

Mark's treatment was totally fictional in nearly every way, so nobody would actually have gotten it.  The chemo wafers that were placed in his tumor that supposedly prolonged patients lives for years are real.  However, the average patient who receives them lives two MONTHS longer, not years.  They were also FDA approved and available in multiple places around the country at the time Mark was diagnosed, so he wouldn't have needed to go to NYC either.  They are still around, I think, but not all that popular since their benefits are so small.  If Mark had been treated as part of a research study, then anyone who meets the study criteria can be treated, there is money to cover the costs for the uninsured in the design of these studies because they need candidates.  However, most uninsured people could not afford to travel to NYC and pay for living expenses, etc while getting treated and most research studies would require them to hang around for a while postop to get follow up evaluation.  I had a friend who had metastatic colon cancer at age 45.  When he exhausted all of the options locally, he and his wife traveled to several major cancer treatment centers to look for options including MD Anderson in Texas, Sloan Kettering in NYC and Johns Hopkins in Baltimore.  They did so at their own expense and each trip was a couple of days.  He wasn't eligible for any of the studies at Anderson or Sloan; he got accepted at Johns Hopkins.  He and his wife traveled there every 3 weeks to stay for several days of treatment, at their own expense.  He luckily had a cousin who lived in Baltimore who let them stay with her.  By the third treatment, his tests showed the cancer to be progressing rapidly and that was the end of that; he died a month later.  Research studies are last ditch options, few people are cured in them.

[readster]

9 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

If I keep doing hysterectomies without documenting other failed treatments having been attempted first; I could lose my surgical privileges.  It is unethical to perform 'unnecessary' surgery.

And, yes, all things being equal, indigent patients need to be offered all options for treatment for their problems, including surgery if that is one of them.  It doesn't matter if they are at the County hospital or any other hospital.  Once again, EMTALA requires that every patient receive the appropriate medical care for their condition without consideration of their ability to pay.  Hospitals write of millions of dollars in unreimbursed care all the time.  The only exception is for elective procedures.  For example, a woman cannot get her tubes tied without paying for it.  Cosmetic surgeries are also not covered except in the case of trauma requiring cosmetic surgery as part of the treatment.  So, a kid that gets bitten by a dog can have a plastic surgeon repair the injury and it will be written off.  But a woman who wants larger breasts is going to have to pay cash.

 

Reminded me of when Jim Belushi character in that one off episode where he had a silent heartattack that got him and his son in a car accident. Especially, him talking about costs of insurance even though he worked for a good factor/company at the time and wanted his son to go to college to have a much better life. When Ramono burst on the scene and was: "You need open heart surgery right now!" Which threw him in a panic because he not only didn't have time to think about it, but Ramono was: "You get this now or you die." Yet, a few episode prior he had a "non white patient" he saw as a drain on the hospital and while he needed surgery to correct an ongoing problem. Ramono was: "Well, if he just took my advice, he wouldn't be here, he get treatment without wasting time for surgery and he be on his way." Instead he lined himself up for a lawsuit. Hell, just rushing Belushi's character up to the OR was after reading his test results and not going: "Well, you do need this taken care of at some point." While the rest of the doctors found out what happened that caused the accident, but they weren't pressing for him to get done right there and right now. 

Edited December 27, 2020 by readster
white not wife.

[Danny Franks]

19 hours ago, debraran said:

I FF thorough the funeral of Gamma and Abby's brother and Carter always trying to find her and the constant apologies on both sides.  He goes to Africa and she shuns him on return and then doesn’t want him to go back.  So Jr High writing.  
I like Galant a lot and wish they did more with him, I especially liked his first encounters with Kerry and his ambulance ride with her. It was well done and he fit the character well. Even Romano saw his potential. 

The entire thing, with Abby's dumbass, drunk brother staggering into the cemetery and falling into the open grave is so, so fucking absurd and unworthy of anything that claims to be a serious drama. It's a sitcom trope. It was embarrassing. I don't know how anyone involved allowed it to happen. And it made Carter's grandmother's funeral yet another storyline that was All About Abby - her bi-polar saga, her annoying brother, her ailing romance, how upset she was over what happened.

Regarding the Romano stuff, I guess I just never saw him as anything more than a ridiculous villain. His glimpses of humanity gave him some depth, but he was perfectly fine as the secondary, recurring, arrogant surgeon character. Giving him headline storylines never worked for me. I didn't care about him. Even Kerry at her most antagonistic was always understandable and believably human, but Romano barely ever was.

[debraran]

3 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

The entire thing, with Abby's dumbass, drunk brother staggering into the cemetery and falling into the open grave is so, so fucking absurd and unworthy of anything that claims to be a serious drama. It's a sitcom trope. It was embarrassing. I don't know how anyone involved allowed it to happen. And it made Carter's grandmother's funeral yet another storyline that was All About Abby - her bi-polar saga, her annoying brother, her ailing romance, how upset she was over what happened.

Regarding the Romano stuff, I guess I just never saw him as anything more than a ridiculous villain. His glimpses of humanity gave him some depth, but he was perfectly fine as the secondary, recurring, arrogant surgeon character. Giving him headline storylines never worked for me. I didn't care about him. Even Kerry at her most antagonistic was always understandable and believably human, but Romano barely ever was.

I didn't realize how much was always about Abby until watching again on Hulu. It's so different weekly years ago or occasionally on TV and being able to see it all at once at your leisure. I find her so annoying now, her mannerisms and constant angst, "maybe" it was different years ago spacing it out. She did always think she was right, whether about patient care or telling a patient something she shouldn't. Romano wasn't seen by me in the same thoughtful way either. Judging from a lot of fan sites, many appreciate him more now and they state how they misused his character, starting after a few seasons. He was a jerk, but I understand his type of jerk from all the years working in an OR with surgeons. The occasional kind things weren't throwaway lines, they made up the same person. I knew a surgeon like him who was different outside of the hospital, did kind things outside of the administrative light. They could have broadened him a bit, had him meet a doc or nurse who liked him, who tolerated him to a degree but not entirely. The way others talked about him after the accident, "Hold him down, I'll cut off his other arm",a new resident making fun of his hook, "You were a surgeon", so many things.. I found Kerry to be just as much as a hard head, cutting people when needed, turning down HMO's, yelling constantly about punctuality or doing their jobs, but she didn't say non PC things. She was definitely not liked by many, I felt they had a lot in common!

Before it got so busy with new faces and too many superficial relationships and the like, it did touch on a lot of topics, rape, high risk pregnancy, abortion, alzhiemers, HIV, addiction, stress, deafness, bias, and so much more, and they did a better job than most. When it gets busy with too many things and people, it gets lost. Even Romano's arm could have been an education for some people on how hard it is to adjust but how different prosthesis could give you back some of your lost freedom. But no, they made it a joke, no education, just a caricature and a lot of yelling.

 

Edited December 27, 2020 by debraran

[Kel Varnsen]

3 hours ago, debraran said:

Even Romano's arm could have been an education for some people on how hard it is to adjust but how different prosthesis could give you back some of your lost freedom. But no, they made it a joke, no education, just a caricature and a lot of yelling.

Romano getting his arm cut off seems like it should have been a more simple and more complicated story both at the same time. Like the stuff about him still trying to assist in surgery and then run the ER should have never happened. Plus the thing about him fighting to get the better arm seemed stupid. Between the fact that it was a workplace injury (and any workplace safety insurance program Illinois might have) along with any actual money he might get from the hospital to avoid a lawsuit, plus any kind of personal dismemberment insurance he might have (you always hear about surgeons having extra insurance on their hands) plus the fact that he was rich getting the good arm seems like it should have been a breeze. Alternatively the actual psychology, and medical issues he was facing seem like they would be a much bigger deal.

3 hours ago, debraran said:

didn't realize how much was always about Abby until watching again on Hulu. It's so different weekly years ago or occasionally on TV and being able to see it all at once at your leisure. I find her so annoying now, her mannerisms and constant angst, "maybe" it was different years ago spacing it out.

I am on season 10 now and while I didn't find her too bad so far, this season she has gotten a lot more annoying. The Carter break up was stupid. Plus there was a whole episode about Abby's hard knock life at work and how everyone sucks but her and it feels like a reality show where the camera is following her around. But nothing that is happening to her seems any worse than how anyone else's shifts go. So what is her problem?

[doodlebug]

3 hours ago, debraran said:

. Even Romano's arm could have been an education for some people on how hard it is to adjust but how different prosthesis could give you back some of your lost freedom. But no, they made it a joke, no education, just a caricature and a lot of yelling.

 

In real life, I've known a couple of surgeons who lost the ability to perform surgery due to various medical problems.  Nobody who lost an arm to a helicopter.  Surgeons are a special breed and they derive a lot of their self esteem and self worth from their talent in the OR.  ER could've taken the opportunity to show Romano, the epitome of the egotistical surgeon, adjusting to a new reality, accepting the change in circumstances and trying to find his place at County in a new position.  Instead, he became the butt of jokes, a cartoon.  An opportunity wasted.

[readster]

47 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

In real life, I've known a couple of surgeons who lost the ability to perform surgery due to various medical problems.  Nobody who lost an arm to a helicopter.  Surgeons are a special breed and they derive a lot of their self esteem and self worth from their talent in the OR.  ER could've taken the opportunity to show Romano, the epitome of the egotistical surgeon, adjusting to a new reality, accepting the change in circumstances and trying to find his place at County in a new position.  Instead, he became the butt of jokes, a cartoon.  An opportunity wasted.

Exactly, so many surgeons lose their gift from: injuries, age, medical conditions, ect. My cousin and brother-in-law have seen it happen to some very gifted surgeons and attitudes and egos to boot like Romano. However, they didn't became the butt of jokes in any shape or form. Hell, practices and hospitals tried to help them find a new way to do things, but rarely did they "force retirement" unless the doctor knew their glory days were officially over. Sadly shows like ER depict surgeons who have lost their once "god like abilities" to age or injuries. They basically have to kill someone before they call it quits. ER made Romano not only a joke, but his aftermath was just plain stupid right up until the helicopter fell on him. 

[debraran]

My daughter a global teacher home on furlough would watch some ER with me but said "Peace out" last night when Samantha came and walked into ER and then grabbed a syringe to stab into a distraught patients neck. Romano's line "Please tell me you work here" wasn't enough to make up for the ridiculous script. She said "Are the nurses calling Romano "Stumpy" and joking about his hand? (buy me a drink and you can tell me about it?)

She did see the heart of the show the last few months while catching up with others but seeing the "WTF" from someone else shows me again how differently the show took the writing then. She also thinks I'm joking about Romano's death and said I thought it was a drama not a comedy. She wont watch that which I think is a good idea. I did tell her the end was great and you'll see some old characters come back, it finishes the circle.

I'll be skipping around now, reading the synopsis first before watching. I really hated the Sam stories more than Abby. I remember Archie got better and I forget what happens to Lizzie.

I did watch Call the Midwife Xmas special on PBS which was wonderful. If anyone would like a dated 50's-60's stories about midwives in the UK, it's great. ; ) I can't wait for the new season.

Edited December 28, 2020 by debraran

[CrazyInAlabama]

Did they ever prove that the Angel of Death doctor did it?   I think after Corday accused him, and she told him to stay away from her baby Ella, the doctor just disappeared.   If there was a resolution, I don't remember it.  

If I recall correctly (please correct me if I screwed it up too) Lizzie was involved in some issue, (she did a transplant from one HIV+ patient to another HIV+ patient, while the bill making it legal was stalled in the legislative process) so quit and went back to England for a while, then at the end of the series, she's working at Duke.     I think that's where Rachel (Mark's daughter) went to college too..   

Edited December 29, 2020 by CrazyInAlabama

[readster]

2 hours ago, CrazyInAlabama said:

If I recall correctly (please correct me if I screwed it up too) Lizzie was involved in some issue, so quit and went back to England for a while, then at the end of the series, she's working at Duke.     I think that's where Rachel (Mark's daughter) went to college too..   

Pretty much, Lizzie was trying to move past mark, slept with a few single father's, including her daughter's teacher. Then after everything going on after Ramono's Death. She got caught in a situation where she was blamed for various patients' death that turned out to be contaminated equipment and she pretty much got tired of the BS political crap at the hospital and went back to the UK and eventually got the job at Duke.

[LizDC]

I thought what eventually got Corday to leave was the aftermath of her performing a transplant surgery between HIV-infected donor and recipient. 

[Heathen]

1 hour ago, LizDC said:

I thought what eventually got Corday to leave was the aftermath of her performing a transplant surgery between HIV-infected donor and recipient. 

You are correct. Corday being blamed for a string of patient deaths, which I don't believe was ever explained, was after Ella's birth and before Mark's death. The HIV positive/positive transplant surgery was a few years later. 

Her post-Mark rebound wasn't all single fathers. 

[debraran]

2 hours ago, Heathen said:

You are correct. Corday being blamed for a string of patient deaths, which I don't believe was ever explained, was after Ella's birth and before Mark's death. The HIV positive/positive transplant surgery was a few years later. 

Her post-Mark rebound wasn't all single fathers. 

Didn't she find one doctor was always on those cases and told Romano about it and his euthanasia views. I know he was going to touch Ella once and Romano kicked him out after she freaked out.  They never went on with that subject again to my memory but it seemed to be him. 

Edited December 28, 2020 by debraran

[ShortyMac]

2 hours ago, debraran said:

Didn't she find one doctor was always on those cases and told Romano about it and his euthanasia views. I know he was going to touch Ella once and Romano kicked him out after she freaked out.  They never went on with that subject again to my memory but it seemed to be him. 

Yeah, it was Dr. Babcock, an anesthesiologist. 

[Heathen]

2 hours ago, ShortyMac said:

Yeah, it was Dr. Babcock, an anesthesiologist. 

There was no follow through after Babcock's name came up -- no mention that Babcock was fired, no description of what he had done, if anything. Just -- poof. 

[debraran]

6 hours ago, Heathen said:

There was no follow through after Babcock's name came up -- no mention that Babcock was fired, no description of what he had done, if anything. Just -- poof. 

Yes, I thought, as many times, a throw-a-way line line about Dr Babcock would have been nice or even a line about his views. He certainly wasn't alone in his views and although wrong, an opportunity to bring up the subject or close it.

I hurried though the episode where Romano gets his hand taken (almost too dumb to mention) by Susan and an new nurse Sam, but Bob Newhart unfortunately got a part too late in the series. I liked him but it seemed rushed and I felt so sad even though I knew it was coming. I also felt sorry for the young dog, that cute lab Susan gave him thinking he would help his depression. No mention of him by EMT or Susan but was a big part of the episode beforehand. He was laughing with him but then Susan didn't show up and he called 3 times and although I knew it would happen eventually, I wish his character got help first.

Pratt lying about a 24 wks babies weight and constantly fighting with Kovac is getting old. It isn't his job to decide to keep that baby alive if it is that young. When egos fly, and I have seen that at a large teaching hosptial, the patient is lost at times

[Danny Franks]

8 hours ago, Heathen said:

There was no follow through after Babcock's name came up -- no mention that Babcock was fired, no description of what he had done, if anything. Just -- poof. 

Maybe the writers belatedly realised what a shit storyline it was and let it quietly disappear?

[Kel Varnsen]

On 12/28/2020 at 5:17 AM, debraran said:

last night when Samantha came and walked into ER and then grabbed a syringe to stab into a distraught patients neck.

I watched that one last night. The highlight of that one was when they were waiting for a surgical consult, and then med student Abby shows up and Romano say something like "congratulations, you waited three and a half hours for Abby". Because it you are going to make him a jerk at least make him funny.

But other than that I hope Sam is better than the comments here and what little I remember. Because I like Linda Cardellini. I liked her in Freaks and Geeks, liked her in Dead to me and I even liked her as boring ass Hawkeye's boring wife.

Also the whole thing with Luka rapidly treating a bunch of non critical patients in the waiting room. It might have been interesting if I hadn't seen Mark do the exact same thing a couple of months ago. Plus I am not even sure why Luka was pissed at the residents for missing the thing that caused the lady to die after waiting for 11 hours. But if no one saw her how is it the residents fault?

Plus I am still not sure why Pratt is acting like a supervisor to the new residents like Cooper and Morris even though they are all second year residents.

[Heathen]

2 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I watched that one last night. The highlight of that one was when they were waiting for a surgical consult, and then med student Abby shows up and Romano say something like "congratulations, you waited three and a half hours for Abby". Because it you are going to make him a jerk at least make him funny.

But other than that I hope Sam is better than the comments here and what little I remember. Because I like Linda Cardellini. I liked her in Freaks and Geeks, liked her in Dead to me and I even liked her as boring ass Hawkeye's boring wife.

Also the whole thing with Luka rapidly treating a bunch of non critical patients in the waiting room. It might have been interesting if I hadn't seen Mark do the exact same thing a couple of months ago. Plus I am not even sure why Luka was pissed at the residents for missing the thing that caused the lady to die after waiting for 11 hours. But if no one saw her how is it the residents fault?

Plus I am still not sure why Pratt is acting like a supervisor to the new residents like Cooper and Morris even though they are all second year residents.

ER reusing old plot lines was really, really annoying. Dark, handsome, moody doctor? Check. Same doctor sleeps around and gets caught in tragic or near-tragic fashion? Check. Staff member has an emergent, complicated childbirth? Check. Doctor gets mad at wait times, goes rogue, and treats-and-streets patients in the waiting room? Check. Helicopter misfortune? Check...

Sam as a character was mildly entertaining until she got involved with Luka. After that she was just a caricature, and her son got more and more irritating. 

Edited December 29, 2020 by Heathen
Grammar

[CrazyInAlabama]

I didn't like the way Sam was written.    It wasn't consistent, and whenever she would be likeable for a while, then the writers would do something that made me dislike her again.     Her son was not well written, and when he set the apartment house on fire, and nothing happened to him, I was done with the character.    

 

[readster]

4 hours ago, CrazyInAlabama said:

I didn't like the way Sam was written.    It wasn't consistent, and whenever she would be likeable for a while, then the writers would do something that made me dislike her again.     Her son was not well written, and when he set the apartment house on fire, and nothing happened to him, I was done with the character.    

 

I agree, I don't know which was worst, but grounded in all the bad writing for either of the characters, was the father. I mean, dear God! They were trying to make him Lex Luthor/Kingpin type of villain and it was just so bad, even after Sam finally shot him dead. They still had her going: "Well, I have to protect my son because he was such scum and he can't let that be known." 

[doodlebug]

On 12/28/2020 at 5:17 AM, debraran said:

My daughter a global teacher home on furlough would watch some ER with me but said "Peace out" last night when Samantha came and walked into ER and then grabbed a syringe to stab into a distraught patients neck. Romano's line "Please tell me you work here" wasn't enough to make up for the ridiculous script. She said "Are the nurses calling Romano "Stumpy" and joking about his hand? (buy me a drink and you can tell me about it?)

She did see the heart of the show the last few months while catching up with others but seeing the "WTF" from someone else shows me again how differently the show took the writing then. She also thinks I'm joking about Romano's death and said I thought it was a drama not a comedy. She wont watch that which I think is a good idea. I did tell her the end was great and you'll see some old characters come back, it finishes the circle.

I'll be skipping around now, reading the synopsis first before watching. I really hated the Sam stories more than Abby. I remember Archie got better and I forget what happens to Lizzie.

I did watch Call the Midwife Xmas special on PBS which was wonderful. If anyone would like a dated 50's-60's stories about midwives in the UK, it's great. ; ) I can't wait for the new season.

CTM is also one of the most medically accurate TV shows I've ever seen.  ER is better than most, but takes a lot of dramatic license.

[doodlebug]

22 hours ago, ShortyMac said:

Yeah, it was Dr. Babcock, an anesthesiologist. 

But even that wasn't clear.  Liz suspected him, but we never saw definitive proof of it. The guy was an anesthesiologist, giving people injections through IV's is a big part of his job and the fact that someone saw him do that really doesn't indicate he was injecting bacteria to kill patients.

BTW, Dr Babcock, who was a recurring character over several seasons, was played by David Brisbin, Laura Innes' real life husband.

Edited December 29, 2020 by doodlebug

[debraran]

On 12/29/2020 at 6:19 PM, doodlebug said:

CTM is also one of the most medically accurate TV shows I've ever seen.  ER is better than most, but takes a lot of dramatic license.

It is and I love how they stuck with the books pretty closely for 3 years and then kept being historically accurate with the culture, medicines and conditions. The A+ writing also had it survive many cast changes with ease when I kept thinking "How could we not have _____?

ER  I give lenience too, especially in the beginning, because it got very active and busy and yelling medical terms and showing thousands of procedures and surgeries. If they got most of the treatment correct, how they did it was not as important. I liked the interaction with patients and doctors as the heart of the show.

I watched about 10 minutes of Freefall last night, pretty bad with Sam's son running the ER, FF through Pratt being Pratt, Archie smoking pot at work (but bad Romano wont get him) and then seeing a guy with a flashlight looking under helicopter. Joe Sachs wrote this one, the Halloween one and smallpox one (maybe more) but this was the worst.

I don't remember Sam's son being so awful, he's stealing dismembered fingers and lying constantly, watching traumas. We hardly ever saw family or kids earlier, maybe better that way ; )

Edited December 31, 2020 by debraran

[Dr.OO7]

Pop is doing what appears to be a "Greatest Hits" marathon today. I'm currently engrossed in my all-time favorite, "Hell And High Water".

[Dr.OO7]

On 12/29/2020 at 6:23 PM, doodlebug said:

The guy was an anesthesiologist, giving people injections through IV's is a big part of his job and the fact that someone saw him do that really doesn't indicate he was injecting bacteria to kill patients.

And if you're going to euthanize someone, why would you do so by injecting them with bacteria? Deliberately inducing a septic infection is NOT a merciful way to end the life of someone terminally ill. The point is to END their suffering, not increase it.

Plus, Babcock was an anesthesiologist. If anyone would know the perfect way to euthanize someone undetected, it would be him. It doesn't take much to overdose someone on a painkiller or a sedative.

BTW, the marathon is titled "Hail To The Heroes" .

[doodlebug]

1 hour ago, Dr.OO7 said:

And if you're going to euthanize someone, why would you do so by injecting them with bacteria? Deliberately inducing a septic infection is NOT a merciful way to end the life of someone terminally ill. The point is to END their suffering, not increase it.

Plus, Babcock was an anesthesiologist. If anyone would know the perfect way to euthanize someone undetected, it would be him. It doesn't take much to overdose someone on a painkiller or a sedative.

BTW, the marathon is titled "Hail To The Heroes" .

Yep, the anesthesia people are the ones who know all the good drugs.  Sepsis is far too unreliable.  Anesthesiologists are the medical specialty most likely to become addicted and also most likely to commit suicide using meds they took from the hospital.  Because they have access.  No way a deranged anesthesiologist is going on a murder spree with a syringe of bacteria.

[Claire85]

I just watched “Exodus.” Carter in the decontamination shower in his little plaid boxers. That day he became a man. 😉

[CrazyInAlabama]

23 hours ago, doodlebug said:

Yep, the anesthesia people are the ones who know all the good drugs.  Sepsis is far too unreliable.  Anesthesiologists are the medical specialty most likely to become addicted and also most likely to commit suicide using meds they took from the hospital.  Because they have access.  No way a deranged anesthesiologist is going on a murder spree with a syringe of bacteria.

Who knows how many the anesthesiologist offed with anesthesia or other drugs, maybe sepsis was another method.   Certain drugs might point to him as the culprit, but sepsis could be blamed on other doctors, like Elizabeth.   What I hated about the story arc about the killings, is that there really was no ending, the Dr. just disappeared, and the story line ended.   I wonder if he targeted Elizabeth?  

I loved Exodus, especially the Kerry's patient explaining to her what happened, and that they removed her clothes after she had the seizure.     That was Carter's shining episode, and he truly stepped up.  

Edited January 1, 2021 by CrazyInAlabama

[doodlebug]

15 minutes ago, CrazyInAlabama said:

Who knows how many the anesthesiologist offed with anesthesia or other drugs, maybe sepsis was another method.   Certain drugs might point to him as the culprit, but sepsis could be blamed on other doctors, like Elizabeth.   

Perhaps, but, then, it would appear more like he was setting Elizabeth up to damage her career and not specifically setting out to kill sick old people,  Even then, it would probably be assumed that she was an asymptomatic carrier and not deliberately exposing patients to it. As I recall, all of the victims of the infection were very sick with multiple other medical problems and the one we saw, in particular, was quite old, too.  Elizabeth became suspicious of Babcock when he made a remark about how sick the patient was and how the surgery might not be the best idea.  That sort of stuff gets talked about between doctors all the time,  It's a fine line between helping and hurting and I found it hard to believe that Elizabeth thought it was strange that Babcock would voice what others were probably thinking.

Considering the patients were all seriously ill, I doubt anyone would've looked for drugs as the cause of death.  Chances are, the families wouldn't request an autopsy since their family member was critically ill anyway and it would be unusual to do toxicology studies on a person who died in those circumstances anyway.   An infection, however, takes time to develop and doing cultures would be a routine part of patient care which is how they noticed the trend., Giving multiple patients the same rare, serious bacterial infection would be sure to attract notice and it did.  The reason the deaths were being investigated was in an effort to track the source of the infections with the most likely possibility that someone on the OR team was an asymptomatic carrier of the infection.  

Edited January 1, 2021 by doodlebug

[Broderbits]

1 hour ago, doodlebug said:

It's a fine line between helping and hurting and I found it hard to believe that Elizabeth thought it was strange that Babcock would voice what others were probably thinking.

It didn't seem to me that she thought it was strange, but more that she was extremely stressed by that point and the cavalier way Babcock was talking just pushed her over the edge. He really did deserve a punch in the nose (and so did the writers for thoroughly botching what could have been a compelling storyline).

[readster]

15 hours ago, doodlebug said:

 

Considering the patients were all seriously ill, I doubt anyone would've looked for drugs as the cause of death.  Chances are, the families wouldn't request an autopsy since their family member was critically ill anyway and it would be unusual to do toxicology studies on a person who died in those circumstances anyway.   An infection, however, takes time to develop and doing cultures would be a routine part of patient care which is how they noticed the trend., Giving multiple patients the same rare, serious bacterial infection would be sure to attract notice and it did.  The reason the deaths were being investigated was in an effort to track the source of the infections with the most likely possibility that someone on the OR team was an asymptomatic carrier of the infection.  

Exactly, especially in this day and age. They need to track down sources for carriers. Decades ago, there was an outbreak of chicken pox at my school district. I'm not talking one or two schools ALL the schools in the elementary level had an outbreak right after Christmas break. I was one of the many who got them. What happened was it was traced back to a Christmas Concert at a church where various kids participated at, I was one of them. A report a year later by the local health department figured that either someone from one of the schools either caught it and sadly exposed everyone at the Christmas concert and when school returned a couple of weeks later, many were passing it around when they returned to school. It didn't hit the middle school or high school level because pretty much everyone had older siblings that were still in the elementary level. There were almost nothing reported in middle to high school level. 

It's scary how someone can cause such a problem when they don't even know they are a carrier. 

[debraran]

Watched the Kem and Carter losing baby episode. Even not liking her that much, I still had tears rolling down my cheeks. When John collapsed in his father's arms....that was very real. I don't care if all the medical stuff was down just right, this was about loss and emotion and grief.

Intertwined was med school graduation but I forwarded through that since it was pretty insignificant along with anything with Sam.

I watch This Is Us too and I always hated that Rebecca in such a highly emotional show, never held her son. The doc had all the platitudes and corny advice but it's the only thing I thought they did poorly. 80's had hospital's aware of the importance.

ER did a good job I felt with this.

 

Edited January 2, 2021 by debraran

[debraran]

A shocker today, I can't believe I didn't remember this show, maybe because I had had gotten tired of the changes and skipped some.

"Time of Death"  with Ray Liotta. It's the sixth episode of the eleventh season of ER. . It was written by David Zabel and directed by Christopher Chulack.  I really enjoyed the change of pace and no one annoyed me. ; ) No corny ending with his son running in. Well done.

It focuses on the final 44 minutes of an alcoholic ex-con name Charlie Metcalf who comes to the ER with a cirrhosis-related illnesses. Actor Ray Liotta, who portrayed Matcalf, won an Emmy for "Outstanding Guest Actor in a Drama Series".

2 good quotes from fan site of the show:

 

Charlie Metcalf: I never believed in God. That might bite me in the ass how, huh?

Luka Kovac: God will get over it.

Gregory Pratt: If you ask me, we need to have one line for legitimate patients, another line for all the rest.

Samantha Taggart: Yeah, well, good thing nobody asked you.

 

 

Edited January 3, 2021 by debraran

[Bastet]

26 minutes ago, debraran said:

Gregory Pratt: If you ask me, we need to have one line for legitimate patients, another line for all the rest.

Wow, everything I hated about Pratt in one line.  Judgmental dickhead.  That's why the only two times I liked him were 1) when he got over his damn self and helped Jing-Mei end her father's suffering and 2) when he died.

[Guest]

I’m on Season 10 now and Luka is really, really annoying. “I want to go back to Africa. In Africa, we treated the patients this way. This hospital sucks.” Shut up, dude.

New nurse Sam’s son is creepy. 

[debraran]

7 hours ago, deaja said:

I’m on Season 10 now and Luka is really, really annoying. “I want to go back to Africa. In Africa, we treated the patients this way. This hospital sucks.” Shut up, dude.

New nurse Sam’s son is creepy. 

That whole story line is crazy and unbelievable. It gets worse. It is a rude awakening to see how much waste we do here but it has encouraged some hospitals to start programs like ours did with recovered, good medical equipment and supplies being shipped to underserved countries  that need them. A doctor is important but supplies are very needed as Kem pointed out.

Why Kovac was so attached to Sam is beyond me or why they couldn't have Carter move on when it seemed Kem did. They had a relationship that deepened with her unplanned pregnancy. They both bonded over it and loved each other but it broke them too. She never wanted to live in the states and he didn't really want to live there. Their worlds are so small even for TV, they only meet people around the main desk. ; )   Even Susan ends up with Chuck who is nursing their son and calling her about the baby eating yams and she's "I'm over this, I'm a doc" but Chuck? I know he wasn't stupid but they always had him bordering it in a way. lol

Edited January 4, 2021 by debraran

[Birdie]

Didn’t Luka’s way of thinking after coming back from Africa (re: finding quick, non-expensive ways of ruling out illnesses) actually almost kill a guy? It was a guy who came in with nausea and stomach pains, but then he starts to feel better, so Luka sent him home. He ends up coming back with a ruptured appendix or something...?

Sam always got on my nerves. The first time we meet her she’s “so badass” 🙄 and jabs that syringe into the guys neck. She’s also “so badass” when Romano grabs her, so she wrenches his prosthetic off. During one episode she’s being brought to task for some infraction (I forget what) and Kerry has discovered she’s left all the jobs she’s had before before the hospitals could fire her, and she tells Kerry something to the effect of “I’m a great nurse, and I don’t need this job. I can find another job at another hospital easily.” And Kerry says, “Something tells me you’ve used that explanation before.” So clearly her “badass-ness” made her a not so great employee. I hated any storyline with her and her son. When he was shipped off to that boarding school, I was like “thank god maybe we won’t see him anymore; just mentions of him. Wish they’d done this sooner.”

Re: Carter and Kem. I always felt he was more invested in the relationship than she. Even before they lost the baby. To me Kem was looking for more of a sexual relationship with no strings because presumably Carter, at least at this point, was not thinking about moving to Africa. So I figured Kem thought they’d have fun and when he left, they’d be done. But then she got pregnant, so that tied her to Carter. Then they lost him and that tie was broken, and traumatically at that. So I always kinda thought Kem was there just because of the baby, but Carter was there because he wanted a real relationship. But she irritates the hell out of me. 
 

i’m glad Carter never got back together with her. And Susan mentions she’s divorced from Chuck (another terrible character that made me question what Susan ever saw in him). So I like to imagine that Susan got her early personality back from seasons 1-3 and got together with Carter.