All Episodes Talk: What's Up Doc?

[debraran]

9 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

 

 

She mentioned Doug wanting her to move to Seattle asap and she wouldn't go. She mentioned Doug came to visit the twins/

Around her birthday Doug in May sent her animal crackers with a more urgent message to move to Seattle.

By end of May she's decided to go live happily ever after with Doug.

 

 

Please refresh my memory, I remember the animal crackers, when did Doug visit? I don't recall anyone saying he came, he'd come and not see anyone else? That is even more unbelievable and that he'd leave and still have her in "dire straits"  A more realistic writing would be Doug saying he was setting up an acct just for the twins, money just for them, and she could take from there for their expenses if she wanted to be a martyr.

[starri]

2 minutes ago, debraran said:

Please refresh my memory, I remember the animal crackers, when did Doug visit?

They only established it with a throwaway line where Carol said "Doug's been seeing them."  That's literally it.

[debraran]

9 hours ago, doodlebug said:

Actually, back then, ER was indeed a real field, with real residencies, just as it was portrayed on the show. The American College of Emergency Medicine was formed in 1979 and ER was recognized as a separate and distinct medical specialty and ER residencies were started at that time..  This was 15 years before the TV show debuted.  I started medical school in 1979 just as this was all happening and several members of my class in medical school entered ER residencies upon graduation in 1982.

Nowadays, the vast majority of physicians working full-time in ER's are Emergency Medicine specialists.  Back when the show debuted, we were told that Mark was Chief Resident in Emergency Medicine.  He wasn't someone who had done a residency in some other specialty and switched.  By that time, 15 years after establishment of the specialty, chief residents were from ER residencies and nowhere else.  We also saw David Morgenstern, the director of Emergency Medicine, doing General Surgery at County in addition to running the residency.  That was also typical of that time when, prior to 1979, doctors who worked in ER's would've been folks who had trained in other specialties and ended up in the ER.  While some of them couldn't cut it in other specialties, some were docs who really loved emergency services and they're the ones who got the ball rolling for emergency medicine to become its own specialty.  Guys like Morganstern, who'd ended up being ER specialists from origins in other fields were then 'grandfathered in' and given board certification in Emergency Medicine in the early days.  By the time Mark was out of medical school, there were more than enough emergency medicine residents to go around and he couldn't possibly have gotten a chief residency in ER without having been an actual ER resident.

Thanks, I was in 20's in early 80s, but I remember the doctor's talking it down all the time. This page shows the outcome over the decades https://www.aaem.org/about-us/our-values/history

I remember doctor's working in ER's in CT while residents for extra money on days off, a dermatology resident did it a lot I knew well. One acquaintance lamented  her doctor boyfriend couldn't pass his boards (wanted to be eye doctor) and she didn't want to marry an "ER doc"  (we didn't stay acquaintances, very calculating person) They still have such great shortages in more rural areas. I'm glad it has gotten more respect, it's not like being a primary or surgeon but you need certain skills that cross a lot of areas and have to be quick on your feet. A great ER physician is a gift.

[doodlebug]

1 minute ago, debraran said:

Thanks, I was in 20's in early 80s, but I remember the doctor's talking it down all the time. This page shows the outcome over the decades https://www.aaem.org/about-us/our-values/history

I remember doctor's working in ER's in CT while residents for extra money on days off, a dermatology resident did it a lot I knew well. One acquaintance lamented  her doctor boyfriend couldn't pass his boards (wanted to be eye doctor) and she didn't want to marry an "ER doc"  (we didn't stay acquaintances, very calculating person) They still have such great shortages in more rural areas. I'm glad it has gotten more respect, it's not like being a primary or surgeon but you need certain skills that cross a lot of areas and have to be quick on your feet. A great ER physician is a gift.

I guess things were different in the midwest where I trained. Yes, I knew quite a few residents and even practicing doctors who worked ER’s, usually in rural areas, for extra money. Urgent cares were fairly new then and they also used non-ER docs for staffing, usually primary care people.  However, in the city, especially the teaching hospitals, the docs were specialists in EM, even if they’d trained in other areas initiallly. They might use a moonlighting family practitioner or pediatrician in busy times; but the main staffing  were docs who worked ER as their career, even if they’d grandfathered in.

I do not recall any sort of disrespect for docs who chose ER as their career.  Yes, there were some less than stellar docs working the doc in the box or rural ER’s; but the people working the big city ER’s like on the show, were trained professionals and treated as such.  Your acquaintance who dissed her fiancé sounds like  a horrible human being; I hope he woke up and ran far away before the wedding.

[debraran]

3 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

I guess things were different in the midwest where I trained. Yes, I knew quite a few residents and even practicing doctors who worked ER’s, usually in rural areas, for extra money. Urgent cares were fairly new then and they also used non-ER docs for staffing, usually primary care people.  However, in the city, especially the teaching hospitals, the docs were specialists in EM, even if they’d trained in other areas initiallly. They might use a moonlighting family practitioner or pediatrician in busy times; but the main staffing  were docs who worked ER as their career, even if they’d grandfathered in.

I do not recall any sort of disrespect for docs who chose ER as their career.  Yes, there were some less than stellar docs working the doc in the box or rural ER’s; but the people working the big city ER’s like on the show, were trained professionals and treated as such.  Your acquaintance who dissed her fiancé sounds like  a horrible human being; I hope he woke up and ran far away before the wedding.

He did and a years later FB search made it seem she was single.  She was honest but it did sound horrible and cold. He deserved better. A quick search for him found him working in his specialty in GA. ; ) Looked the same except heavier like most of us. lol

[Growsonwalls]

2 hours ago, debraran said:

Please refresh my memory, I remember the animal crackers, when did Doug visit? I don't recall anyone saying he came, he'd come and not see anyone else? That is even more unbelievable and that he'd leave and still have her in "dire straits"  A more realistic writing would be Doug saying he was setting up an acct just for the twins, money just for them, and she could take from there for their expenses if she wanted to be a martyr.

Oh I agree that the writing for the twins situation was so unrealistic. For one even if Carol wanted to prove her "independence" from Doug she could have sued Doug for child support if he was indeed refusing to pay. But most of all if the writers of ER knew Marguiles wasn't coming back after S6 they had all season to make her farewell less hasty and her storyline more believable. That romance was Luka was so eye-rolling. 

While we;re on unrealistic childcare situations is County General the only daycare center in Chicago? I can understand Carol and Susan using it because they worked long hours and it was convenient. But Carla had NO other daycare center where she could put Reese? And Peter by then was a surgical resident and certainly could afford a nice daycare center for Reese.

Edited September 8, 2018 by Growsonwalls

[starri]

2 hours ago, doodlebug said:

However, in the city, especially the teaching hospitals, the docs were specialists in EM, even if they’d trained in other areas initiallly. They might use a moonlighting family practitioner or pediatrician in busy times; but the main staffing  were docs who worked ER as their career, even if they’d grandfathered in.

My (suburban, Level One) county hospital has a few internists who fill in regularly.  I don't believe that ABEM rules allow them to work with the EM residents, but our EM residency is small and new, so IM, FM, and Transition Years also do a month there.  They also can't run traumas but do get to do the critical care stuff like strokes, septic shock, and   And a friend of mine who just graduated from the FM program got hired to work in the urgent care unit.

[txhorns79]

Quote

Oh I agree that the writing for the twins situation was so unrealistic. For one even if Carol wanted to prove her "independence" from Doug she could have sued Doug for child support if he was indeed refusing to pay. But most of all if the writers of ER knew Marguiles wasn't coming back after S6 they had all season to make her farewell less hasty and her storyline more believable. That romance was Luka was so eye-rolling. 

That's interesting.  I was really under the impression that there were serious negotiations to try and get her return for Season 7 until close to the end of the filming season, which was partially why she seemed to so suddenly drop Luka.  From what I remember reading, they were throwing tens of millions of dollars at her, or some ridiculous number.  

[Growsonwalls]

They tried to get her to a $27 million 2 year contract after the 5th season (the same one that La Salle and Edwards took -- which is why they departed the series after Season 8) but she said no. Interestingly, in Season 15 she also declined the request to drop in for an episode. But George Clooney said that he wanted to return and so it made no sense to have Clooney back without Marguiles which is how we ended up with "Old Times."

[Growsonwalls]

"The Good Fight" was by far the worst "Out of ER" episode ever. I don;t think either Noah Wyle or Kellie Martin had enough depth as actors to carry an "out of ER" episode and certainly not enough chemistry to carry an out of ER episode together. 

"Hell and High Water" and "Fathers and Sons" remain the only good out of ER episodes.

Edited September 8, 2018 by Growsonwalls

[Dr.OO7]

1 hour ago, Growsonwalls said:

The Good Fight" was by far the worst "Out of ER" episode ever. I don;t think either Noah Wyle or Kellie Martin had enough depth as actors to carry an "out of ER" episode and certainly not enough chemistry to carry an out of ER episode together. 

It really was. The concept was interesting, but it just went on and on and ON. Then to top it off, it turns out that the guy's been across the street from the hospital the whole time, making Carter and Lucy's running around all day completely pointless.

[WendyCR72]

I'd like to believe "The Good Fight" was a turning point for when TPTB threw in the towel with Lucy/Carter, for the most part, because there was no "there" there.

[Growsonwalls]

As I'm making my way through Season 5 the dropoff in quality is so obvious. There are still great storylines but many of them are so unbelievable:

1) The Amanda Lee thing. First of all anyone who approaches someone in a job interview and says "I feel like we aren't connecting" and then claims "I'm the baddest ER bitch out there" is trouble. It's not professional language. How could Anspaugh and Greene not get that?

2) Carol freaking out that she's not pregnant. They've been trying for ... what, a month or two? How could a healthcare professional not know that you don't just snap your fingers and automatically get knocked up. Second of all shouldn't she know that it's not how often you do it, it's when you do it? The ovulation window?

3) Carter/Lucy. They argue, blah blah blah, they argue again, blah blah blah. So annoying and neither of them cover themselves in glory and it's unprofessional for them to have a row in the middle of the ER. Benton/Carter never acted this way. And yeah, Carter is a shitty teacher if he can't talk to his student professionally. The anti-chemistry between NW and KM was so apparent by then. Sparks were just not flying.

4) Longtime favorites like Jeanie Boulet or Maggie Doyle are given nothing to do. It's just this endless Lucy drama.

Edited September 8, 2018 by Growsonwalls

[CrazyInAlabama]

The one Carter-Lucy interaction that irritated me was when he was so rude about her taking Ritalin.      She didn't need his approval, just her doctor's.     

[txhorns79]

Quote

The one Carter-Lucy interaction that irritated me was when he was so rude about her taking Ritalin.  She didn't need his approval, just her doctor's.     

This.  He was very out of line to offer any commentary, much less suggest she stop taking the pills.  And gosh, she entirely fell apart when she followed his advice and stopped taking the medication!  Great job Carter!   

[Dr.OO7]

1 hour ago, CrazyInAlabama said:

The one Carter-Lucy interaction that irritated me was when he was so rude about her taking Ritalin.      She didn't need his approval, just her doctor's.     

That was infuriating. People butting into people's private business, especially their medical issues is a huge berserk button for me. Carter, you are A doctor, not HER doctor, you have no right lecturing her.

And then a year later, when Mark asks him how much pain medication he's taking, Carter tells him, "That's between me and my doctor." So you can badger Lucy, but no one can do that to you?

[Bastet]

It was particularly appalling, given the dismissive attitude toward ADD/ADHD so prevalent in society at that time, for a top-rated prime time show to present a doctor - and not the asshole doctor secondary character, the perhaps most-loved primary character - as taking that stance about Ritalin.

[WendyCR72]

I won't lie: Carter was an ass about the Ritalin, especially being a doctor.

With that said, I often felt like Carter and everyone else were made to ensure that the audience would get behind Lucy by making them act OOC or stupid, and it just seemed manipulative to me. Only when it was clear that KM/Lucy just was not catching on (and ultimately killed), did I feel TPTB pull back and allow the other characters to return to form, more or less.

So, while Lucy was treated badly, to be honest, I really didn't and still don't care.

[Growsonwalls]

Actually another infuriating part of Carter's treatment of Lucy is he didn't even go to her funeral. And it actually was sort of his fault that she died because he was a complete ass about her picking up on Paul's psychiatric problems.

[WendyCR72]

2 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

Actually another infuriating part of Carter's treatment of Lucy is he didn't even go to her funeral. And it actually was sort of his fault that she died because he was a complete ass about her picking up on Paul's psychiatric problems.

Here, I disagree. Carter was an ass about Lucy picking up the symptoms, but if I recall, she also was being defiant in terms of procedure on how to proceed. She could be as pig headed as Carter.

As for not attending her funeral, I'm pretty sure he was still recovering from major injuries. He did put aside his own issues to lie to Lucy's mother about whether there was a lot of pain/suffering, etc.

[Growsonwalls]

9 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

Here, I disagree. Carter was an ass about Lucy picking up the symptoms, but if I recall, she also was being defiant in terms of procedure on how to proceed. She could be as pig headed as Carter.

As for not attending her funeral, I'm pretty sure he was still recovering from major injuries. He did put aside his own issues to lie to Lucy's mother about whether there was a lot of pain/suffering, etc.

Well here's the thing: we found out that Lucy actually wanted a psych residency. After her psych rotation went well why was she still kicking around in the ER with Carter continuing to be an ass about her?

I agree the character was poorly written, Martin was a poor fit for the character, and at least she got a great sendoff in that her death episode is widely considered to be one of the best ER episodes of all time.

[doodlebug]

24 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

Actually another infuriating part of Carter's treatment of Lucy is he didn't even go to her funeral. And it actually was sort of his fault that she died because he was a complete ass about her picking up on Paul's psychiatric problems.

We don't know if Lucy's funeral was even in Chicago.  When Carter spoke to her mother after the stabbing, it sounded like they weren't from the area.  There was a memorial service for her that hospital staff attended, but Carter was still hospitalized after the stabbing when it occurred.  He talked to Chen about it when she visited him in the same episode.   Since he was hospitalized at the time, I don't think he would've been able to attend let alone that anyone should expect it.

The debacle that was the entire Lucy Knight saga on ER took time away from so many other, more interesting characters and certainly was a huge reason why Season 5 was such a turning point in the show.  It certainly stopped being Must See TV for me at the time and I recall deleting a lot of unwatched episodes from the VCR at the time.

[Growsonwalls]

20 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

The debacle that was the entire Lucy Knight saga on ER took time away from so many other, more interesting characters and certainly was a huge reason why Season 5 was such a turning point in the show.  It certainly stopped being Must See TV for me at the time and I recall deleting a lot of unwatched episodes from the VCR at the time.

Lucy was certainly one reason Season 5 didn't have the consistency of the first four seasons. But I'm now watching Season 5 and there's a bunch more reasons:

1) George Clooney leaving the show. I don't think the show ever really recovered. Doug's warmth and humor were really vital (pun intended) for the show's success. Show was not the same without Doug's famous giggle or his love of gossip.

2) The sidelining of a few popular characters -- Jeanie Boulet jumps to mind, but also Maggie Doyle's unexplained departure. And I would have liked to see follow up with a few characters like Chase Carter or Carla or Anna del Amico.

3) Some poorly thought out storylines. Like Amanda Lee. WTF? After that exhaustive search of chief residents you find this total psycho whose mental instability and lack of boundaries and oversharing are totally apparent from the word go? And on top of that Mark is dating her? No.

4) Many of the standbys were apparently getting more and more side work. So the consistency of the famous front desk is gone -- Jerry, Chuny, Lydia, Haleh, Randi and Malik who had grounded the first four seasons were more spotty. 

5) Roxanne. Omg I'm watching now and my god she's irritating. 

Edited September 9, 2018 by Growsonwalls

[Dr.OO7]

22 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

) Roxanne. Omg I'm watching now and my god she's irritating. 

I didn't think she was irritating, just utterly bland and pointless.

23 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

George Clooney leaving the show. I don't think the show ever really recovered. Doug's warmth and humor were really vital (pun intended) for the show's success. Show was not the same without Doug's famous giggle or his love of gossip.

I don't think so either. I feel like a lot of the things done and the characters introduced in season 6 we're overcompensation. We got THREE characters to substitute for him--Luka the brooder with the painful past and yearning for Carol, Dave the rebel, and Cleo the. . . pediatrician.

 

26 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

Some poorly thought out storylines. Like Amanda Lee. WTF? After that exhaustive search of chief residents you find this total psycho whose mental instability and lack of boundaries and oversharing are totally apparent from the word go? And on top of that Mark is dating her? No.

Godawful. It would have been better if that had just been a comedic side plot of one episode (like in the first season, when an "efficiency expert" comes to evaluate the ER and only at the end of the day does Susan learn that he's actually a mental patient. Instead, it lasts for weeks and then it just. . .ends? 

[Ceindreadh]

1 hour ago, Growsonwalls said:

Well here's the thing: we found out that Lucy actually wanted a psych residency. After her psych rotation went well why was she still kicking around in the ER with Carter continuing to be an ass about her?

 

Because the show was called ER and not Psych. 

[Growsonwalls]

18 minutes ago, Camille said:

I don't think so either. I feel like a lot of the things done and the characters introduced in season 6 we're overcompensation. We got THREE characters to substitute for him--Luka the brooder with the painful past and yearning for Carol, Dave the rebel, and Cleo the. . . pediatrician.

Well the thing that made Doug's character work was that even though he had a "brooding past" and some angsty storylines the character was grounded in a lot of humor. We were always laughing with him. 

I'm convinced that every serious drama needs the funny rascal to keep the show alive. Think about LOST without Sawyer.

[CrazyInAlabama]

One other thing I found ludicrous were the custody battles.    Benton, and Roger (?) fighting over Reese was sad.    They acted like winning full custody was the only way to go, and seemed to forget that both men loved that little boy.      It was just a macho contest, and Reese became a pawn.    

And the Kerry, and Sandy's family fight was stupid.   I fail to believe that Kerry wouldn't have filed to adopt him the second he was born, and I'm sure Sandy and Kerry would have done mutual wills, and the whole custody fight would have been avoided.   I find it ridiculous that two professional women wouldn't have even thought of doing paperwork to guarantee access to their partners.    Weren't there cases on ER with exactly that issue, of a long term partner not being able to have access and make decisions for loved ones because they weren't legally married?   

And when they went back to the same part-time baby sitting for Sandy's family all of a sudden, it was bizarre.   The custody compromise would have been a great time for Kerry, and Sandy's family to say they wanted the best for the little boy, and would cooperate in raising him.   Then later when Kerry moved to Miami with her new girlfriend, and no mention was made about the little boy's relationship with his mother's family, or that she was moving him across the country, and it was just a big hole in the story.     

The worst custody battle's I've seen in real life were when one former spouse wanted to move out of state, like the Carla and Benton fight when she wanted to moved to Germany with Roger, and she wasn't allowed to.      Of course, by the later battles I wasn't watching that closely, so I might have missed something that was mentioned, but it seemed to me that they had a big dust up, and then the writers just stopped mentioning things later.   

Edited September 10, 2018 by CrazyInAlabama

[Peace 47]

42 minutes ago, CrazyInAlabama said:

 

One other thing I found ludicrous were the custody battles.    Benton, and Roger (?) fighting over Reese was sad.    They acted like winning full custody was the only way to go, and seemed to forget that both men loved that little boy.      It was just a macho contest, and Reese became a pawn. 

 

It’s been like 15 years since I’ve watched some of the ER episodes in syndication on TNT, so I didn’t even remember this storyline until you posted about it.

Isn’t there is a strong, almost irrefutable presumption for the biological family in custody disputes (absent abuse)?  I would have thought that the case would never have gotten as far as it did, because Peter was a stable, job-holding professional who was very involved in his son’s life.  Now, I think Peter was a jerk to Roger generally (especially lying in court about his new job), but someone was interfering with Peter’s relationship with his son, so I understand his desperation.  I just think in reality, the judge would have laughed Roger out of court long before it got to the point of Peter feeling compelled to switch jobs.

[Growsonwalls]

17 minutes ago, Peace 47 said:

It’s been like 15 years since I’ve watched some of the ER episodes in syndication on TNT, so I didn’t even remember this storyline until you posted about it.

Isn’t there is a strong, almost irrefutable presumption for the biological family in custody disputes (absent abuse)?  I would have thought that the case would never have gotten as far as it did, because Peter was a stable, job-holding professional who was very involved in his son’s life.  Now, I think Peter was a jerk to Roger generally (especially lying in court about his new job), but someone was interfering with Peter’s relationship with his son, so I understand his desperation.  I just think in reality, the judge would have laughed Roger out of court long before it got to the point of Peter feeling compelled to switch jobs.

There is but Peter isn't Reese's biological father ... 

I however didn't mind Reese taking up screentime because he was a cute kid and brought out the soft side of just about everyone, from Kerry to Romano.

Edited September 9, 2018 by Growsonwalls

[Bastet]

1 hour ago, Peace 47 said:

Isn’t there is a strong, almost irrefutable presumption for the biological family in custody disputes (absent abuse)?

Biological ties are privileged, yes, but neither party had that in this case (remember, they retconned Carla into a lying skank); the only known bio parent was Carla, and she was dead, so now it was between two non-bio dads, where the child has an existing relationship with both (and is used to living primarily with one, Roger).

The standard is "best interests of the child," so Peter was never, ever going to get his way yanking that child out his home.  Roger was asking for exactly what fit the standard, and had Peter just agreed to that reasonable request, they'd have never needed to go through the court process for the judge to order what Roger had asked for to begin with.

Edited September 9, 2018 by Bastet

[doodlebug]

42 minutes ago, Bastet said:

Biological ties are privileged, yes, but neither party had that in this case (remember, they retconned Carla into a lying skank); the only known bio parent was Carla, and she was dead, so now it was between two non-bio dads, where the child has an existing relationship with both (and is used to living primarily with one, Roger).

The standard is "best interests of the child," so Peter was never, ever going to get his way yanking that child out his home.  Roger was asking for exactly what fit the standard, and had Peter just agreed to that reasonable request, they'd have never needed to go through the court process for the judge to order what Roger had asked for to begin with.

 

However, Peter was presumably named as Reese’ father on the birth certificate and had behaved as a responsible biological father would.  Most states look at the individual who claims paternity as the legal father of the child unless that man later presents DNA evidence to the contrary and requests removal from the certificate.  Peter deliberately avoided paternity testing when he discovered Reese might not be his; he intended to be his father, no matter what.  Since Roger wasn’t his biological father, either, the court forcing paternity testing at that point was purely fictional and unlikely to have been  allowed or made a difference in real life.  I think Roger certainly had a case to request visitation, but there was no way that Peter could’ve been legally deprived of his rights as a parent.  Now, if Roger had turned out to be the actual bio daddy, that’s a whole ‘mother thing.

The situation with Kerry and Sandy was stupid. They had to have known the legal issues involved in Kerry’s relationship with their child and Sandy held a dangerous job. At the very least, Sandy should’ve had a will clearly spelling out that Kerry would be sole legal guardian to Henry in the event of herdeath; pending adoption.  

[Bastet]

28 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

However, Peter was presumably named as Reese’ father on the birth certificate and had behaved as a responsible biological father would.  Most states look at the individual who claims paternity as the legal father of the child unless that man later presents DNA evidence to the contrary and requests removal from the certificate.  Peter deliberately avoided paternity testing when he discovered Reese might not be his; he intended to be his father, no matter what.  Since Roger wasn’t his biological father, either, the court forcing paternity testing at that point was prurely fictional and unlikely to have been  allowed or made a difference in real life.  I think Roger certainly had a case to request visitation, but there was no way that Peter could’ve been legally deprived of his rights as a parent.  

Peter was not deprived of his rights.  And the only "paternity is presumptive, and that's it" scenario is with married couples, so that doesn't apply to Peter.

Edited September 9, 2018 by Bastet

[doodlebug]

18 minutes ago, Bastet said:

Peter was not deprived of his rights.  And the only presumptive paternity is with married couples, which does not apply to Peter and Carla.

I only know from signing birth certificates, but, where I practice, yes, if the mother is married, her husband is the legal father of the child and will be on the birth certificate unless DNA testing proves he is not and he agrees that he doesn’t want to be considered the legal parent.  This came about due to the advent of fertility treatment via donated sperm and DNA testing since there was concern that sperm donors would disappear if they thought they might somehow end up being held legally responsible for children fathered in this way.

However, if the mother is unmarried, a father’s name may only appear on the birth certificate if he signs a notarized affidavit claiming paternity and indicating his willingness to support the child.  Presumably, Peter signed Reese’ birth certificate and it was my understanding that he could not be removed without his consent and, even if someone else was the biological father.  I guess you know more about it than I do, but I don’t see how Roger could be given equal status with Peter in the case we saw on TV.  Of course, I also don’t see a judge thinking that a busy surgeon would be a neglectful parent or why Peter, with his mid 6 figure salary, didn’t arrange reliable and consistent childcare for Reese or why he had such a bee up his butt about Roger seeing Reese.

[MVFrostsMyPie]

16 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

Actually another infuriating part of Carter's treatment of Lucy is he didn't even go to her funeral. And it actually was sort of his fault that she died because he was a complete ass about her picking up on Paul's psychiatric problems.

I think there were a lot of people to blame for it all. Carter for not listening to Lucy, Greene for going off to dinner and not checking in with Carter, Luka for assuming Greene handed off to him patients that were all looked at and he never checked in with Carter either. The other staff for just leaving a giant knife around in the kitchen. Better security. No one noticing this random patient going into the staff lounge to take the giant knife. Hindsight is 20/20. I don't think anyone could have predicted Paul would have ended up doing what he did. Plus if they had, we wouldn't have had one of the most memorable episodes of the entire show! ;)

As for Carter not attending the funeral, I would have been surprised if he had. When we saw him after the stabbing, he was still in a wheelchair, could barely walk, had a colostomy bag and was in *a lot* of pain. Depending on when the funeral was, he may have still even been unable to get up and get in a wheelchair. Also, I don't blame him for not attending, even if he had physically been in better shape. I imagine the guilt was just way too much, too soon, and I'm not sure I'd be able to handle it either if I was in his position. 

17 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

With that said, I often felt like Carter and everyone else were made to ensure that the audience would get behind Lucy by making them act OOC or stupid, and it just seemed manipulative to me. Only when it was clear that KM/Lucy just was not catching on (and ultimately killed), did I feel TPTB pull back and allow the other characters to return to form, more or less.

So, while Lucy was treated badly, to be honest, I really didn't and still don't care.

Yep. All of this. 

[CrazyInAlabama]

I read (probably on here) that the reason Carla was killed off was because she was difficult on set (for medical reasons I think), so they wrote her out, and that triggered the custody battle.  

[Growsonwalls]

Anyone find it hilarious that after years of Luka's "I want kids" angst he finally ended up being a father again after a brief and not very romantic one time encounter?

[txhorns79]

Quote

I read (probably on here) that the reason Carla was killed off was because she was difficult on set (for medical reasons I think), so they wrote her out, and that triggered the custody battle.  

Yes, Lisa Nicole Carson had some serious mental health issues that led her to get fired by both ER and Ally McBeal around the same time. 

[Peace 47]

Oh, I had forgotten that Peter turned out not to be the biological father:  I was only remembering him as the bio dad.  Very unfair to the Carla character to retcon her into a liar like that.

There was was all this talk about the residents’ salary upthread.  In the pilot episode, when Peter wants Carol to make coffee for him, he mentions his salary is only $23,739 per year.  That seems incredibly low.

[Growsonwalls]

With the Peter/Reese custody battle I had more of an issue that Peter felt he needed to perjure himself to say he worked less hours. First of all it's incredibly out of character for Peter to lie; second of all, this was 2002 and I would have hoped that family court judges would have gone beyond this outdated notion that people cannot have busy, high-pressure careers AND be loving, involved parents.

[CrazyInAlabama]

I'm sure that Luka's absences and Carter disappearing were for other projects, but it just seemed silly that both of them would drop in, and then leave again.   

[txhorns79]

Quote

With the Peter/Reese custody battle I had more of an issue that Peter felt he needed to perjure himself to say he worked less hours. First of all it's incredibly out of character for Peter to lie; second of all, this was 2002 and I would have hoped that family court judges would have gone beyond this outdated notion that people cannot have busy, high-pressure careers AND be loving, involved parents.

I think the issue was more that Reese had been through a trauma with his mother dying, and he needed a parent who could be there when Reese needed him.  Roger apparently had very flexible work hours, and worked from home.  Peter's schedule did not allow for that.  It was not a matter of the Judge thinking that a busy, career oriented parent was not able to be loving and involved.   

[Growsonwalls]

I just saw "The Miracle Worker." I know Christmas ER episodes were favorites and were generally heartwarming with a side of comedy. And "The Miracle Worker" was exactly that, with heartwarming stories of Peter operating but still seeing Reese (and also buying Elizabeth a present even though they've been broken up), Carter and Lucy convincing the mother of the braindead boy to donate his liver, a comic story of the nasty elf, and even a thought-provoking storyline with Doug and Carol arguing about how best to deal with a pregnant teen.

However all this had to be ruined by the total creepiness of Amanda Lee stealing Greene's stuff and the FINAL shot had to be of her making her little Christmas tree shrine to Mark (and we've seen that she's indeed stolen his gloves, lab coat, and put pictures of him all over her tree). Boo ER for ruining an otherwise lovely episode with the Amanda Lee creepiness. 

"Homeless for the Holidays" remains the best Christmas ER episode. 

Edited September 10, 2018 by Growsonwalls

[BigBeagle]

14 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

"Homeless for the Holidays" remains the best Christmas ER episode.

It is a really, really good episode, but I'm still partial to "A Miracle Happens Here," from Season 2 ... all the goodness without the Amanda Lee creepiness at the end.

[doodlebug]

47 minutes ago, BigBeagle said:

It is a really, really good episode, but I'm still partial to "A Miracle Happens Here," from Season 2 ... all the goodness without the Amanda Lee creepiness at the end.

And I will always love Blizzard from Season 1 which actually had 2 Christmas episodes. The Gift from that season is also very good with the whole staff pulling together to make an organ donation possible, complete with a Christmas bow on the cooler.

Carol's 'Ukrainian sheperdess' outfit' in Season 3 was also a highlight.

[RedbirdNelly]

On ‎9‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 3:08 PM, Camille said:

It really was. The concept was interesting, but it just went on and on and ON. Then to top it off, it turns out that the guy's been across the street from the hospital the whole time, making Carter and Lucy's running around all day completely pointless.

I hated that episode. It just seemed very unbelievable to me they would keep going and going to find that person. Don't they jump a fence? I'm not doing that.

[doodlebug]

2 minutes ago, RedbirdNelly said:

I hated that episode. It just seemed very unbelievable to me they would keep going and going to find that person. Don't they jump a fence? I'm not doing that.

They jump several fences, Carter dislocates his shoulder, they try to sneak on the El without paying.  It was totally ridiculous that they didn't have hospital security check the building and surrounding including Doc's before heading out on a wild goose chase.  After the second or third dead end; anyone in their right mind would've quit. 

It was a really bad episode although Peter's foray into the deep South was probably my least favorite episode ever.

[RedbirdNelly]

18 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

And I will always love Blizzard from Season 1 which actually had 2 Christmas episodes. The Gift from that season is also very good with the whole staff pulling together to make an organ donation possible, complete with a Christmas bow on the cooler.

Carol's 'Ukrainian sheperdess' outfit' in Season 3 was also a highlight.

I would like to see a listing of all Christmas episodes with brief plot descriptions since I often can't remember them by title---but without the handy list, I'm going on record as voting for Season 1 the Blizzard. I like the song that is played to start the episodes, everything about it. I agree on the Urkainian shepherdess thing. That was hilarious. As a general rule, the Christmas episodes tended to be the best. I, again, request that Pop do a marathon of just Christmas episodes.

6 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

They jump several fences, Carter dislocates his shoulder, they try to sneak on the El without paying.  It was totally ridiculous that they didn't have hospital security check the building and surrounding including Doc's before heading out on a wild goose chase.  After the second or third dead end; anyone in their right mind would've quit. 

It was a really bad episode although Peter's foray into the deep South was probably my least favorite episode ever.

I think what also bugs me is that it gets implied that a truly, dedicated professional will do all of that. And I think you can be a good, dedicated ER doctor and not feel compelled to jump several fences. It was just absurd.

I agree that Peter in the deep South was not great but it had some cute moments.

[Growsonwalls]

Ooh Blizzard was a great Christmas episode too. Although I didnt think of that as a Christmas episode so much as The Gift.

Homeless for the Holidays was my favorite because it showed the characters at their loveliest. Kerry continues to defend Jeanie. Carol finally reaches out to Jeanie following the reveal of Jeanie's HIV status, Mark lets Jeanie stitch him up, Mark has fun with a dog and I love how he says "good dog" after the dog tries to bite Jen's new husband, and Doug helps Charlie. Loved Carol in her Ukranian shepherdess outfit. No Amanda Green creepiness to ruin anything. Just a reminder of how lovely these characters could be even if they all had their assy moments.

[Growsonwalls]

I'm now at the Joi episodes where Doug leaves Chicago. I dreaded watching these episodes and sometimes I think the writers would have done better by killing Doug off. Giving him a heroic death. Viewers would have cried buckets but at least there would have been more closure and less character assassination. I mean it's believable that Doug leaves (getting a job in Chicago would have been hard). More unbelievable that he wouldn't be there for Carol during her pregnancy. Even more unbelievable that the twins would be born and he wouldn't have been sending child support. Completely unbelievable that two adults who love each other with two kids together couldn't have come up with a compromise that allowed both parents in the kids' lives. 

ER was lucky that George Clooney was willing to come back for Juliana Marguiles' last episode because if he hadn't been, and "The Storm" had been the last we'd seen of Doug, that would have been a really shitty sendoff for one of ER's most beloved characters. Even luckier that Clooney was willing to come back for the final season to assure us that yes, Carol and Doug did indeed get married and raise the twins together in Seattle.

[Dr.OO7]

2 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

I'm now at the Joi episodes where Doug leaves Chicago. I dreaded watching these episodes and sometimes I think the writers would have done better by killing Doug off. Giving him a heroic death. Viewers would have cried buckets but at least there would have been more closure and less character assassination. 

I HATED those episodes. I haven't rewatched them since they aired.

There's a terrific fanfic called "One Candle Burns" that rectifies everything.