All Episodes Talk: What's Up Doc?

[debraran]

I agree with most of what you said, but Romano was insufferable toward the end because they wrote it that way, he didn't want it, but they felt it would make his exit better. I still think someone was drunk writing that helicopter episode. My daughter hung in watching it for the first time until then. No realism left.

I dread watching the Pratt episode, never saw it earlier. I also didn't see Abby get drunk again and watching them put holes in her marriage so soon will be difficult to watch also. I never read about her wanting to be killed off but that would have been WAY too much and she's a mom now, who would want to be killed off with a cute baby son! : )

I'm glad Laura Innes said "No death for Weaver" Let me leave a normal exit. Who would want to work in that ER...it was like a curse. lol

I remember old shows like MASH withstood changes in cast, some left, some died, but the it always had a strong core of original actors or ones that were there a long time. Such talented writers to keep things moving and not go crazy with plots, it's hard to do.

[starri]

4 hours ago, debraran said:

I remember old shows like MASH withstood changes in cast, some left, some died, but the it always had a strong core of original actors or ones that were there a long time. Such talented writers to keep things moving and not go crazy with plots, it's hard to do.

I can't speak to the latter seasons, but given the cast changes even in the first six or seven years, the fact that Anna and Cleo were the only ones to get the "Note: Poochie Died" treatment is pretty impressive.  And I can't even fault TPTB for Anna, it seemed like Maria Bello just up and quit during their hiatus that year, and they were left scrambling.  It always seemed like in Lucy's first half-season, they just plugged her into story ideas they had for Anna--at least so far as the romantic tension between the two--particularly in that episode where they race around the city to find the dad who needs to donate blood to his daughter.

[doodlebug]

4 hours ago, debraran said:

I agree with most of what you said, but Romano was insufferable toward the end because they wrote it that way, he didn't want it, but they felt it would make his exit better. I still think someone was drunk writing that helicopter episode. My daughter hung in watching it for the first time until then. No realism left.

I dread watching the Pratt episode, never saw it earlier. I also didn't see Abby get drunk again and watching them put holes in her marriage so soon will be difficult to watch also. I never read about her wanting to be killed off but that would have been WAY too much and she's a mom now, who would want to be killed off with a cute baby son! : )

I'm glad Laura Innes said "No death for Weaver" Let me leave a normal exit. Who would want to work in that ER...it was like a curse. lol

I remember old shows like MASH withstood changes in cast, some left, some died, but the it always had a strong core of original actors or ones that were there a long time. Such talented writers to keep things moving and not go crazy with plots, it's hard to do.

The other issue with killing Abby off was that she was married to Luka who already had that tragic backstory.  Losing one young wife is awful enough, saddling him with the albatross of another dead spouse would've been too much even though he left the show about the same time.  And, of course, another tragic death leaving behind a young child and grieving spouse had already been done before on the show.  TWICE, with both Kerry and Elizabeth.  I can see MT wanting it though, she's a lot like Abby in liking the sad and dark if you've ever seen her interviewed.

Gray's Anatomy is kind of an anomaly.  Aside from it's very long run, there are few actors like Ellen Pompeo who are willing to stick with a show until the end.  As it is, she is just about the only original character still left, I believe (I don't watch the show).  The olden days when shows like Bonanza or Gunsmoke ran for years and years with the same cast are long gone; actors make enough money to be set after just a few seasons and, with the number of entertainment outlets available today; there are many more opportunities for them to work on other projects.

[ch1]

What’s with actors needing their characters killed off?  Sometimes people just leave their jobs.  Jeez.

[Racj82]

29 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

The other issue with killing Abby off was that she was married to Luka who already had that tragic backstory.  Losing one young wife is awful enough, saddling him with the albatross of another dead spouse would've been too much even though he left the show about the same time.  And, of course, another tragic death leaving behind a young child and grieving spouse had already been done before on the show.  TWICE, with both Kerry and Elizabeth.  I can see MT wanting it though, she's a lot like Abby in liking the sad and dark if you've ever seen her interviewed.

Gray's Anatomy is kind of an anomaly.  Aside from it's very long run, there are few actors like Ellen Pompeo who are willing to stick with a show until the end.  As it is, she is just about the only original character still left, I believe (I don't watch the show).  The olden days when shows like Bonanza or Gunsmoke ran for years and years with the same cast are long gone; actors make enough money to be set after just a few seasons and, with the number of entertainment outlets available today; there are many more opportunities for them to work on other projects.

Yeah it brought up in a entertainment weekly article that dropped the day Abby was leaving that Maura wanted her killed off. I had no idea. I was trying to make sure Mekhi had actually said he wanted killed off, which he did. They worked on how he would be killed off together.

What hurts upon rewatch in a different way is how obvious it is that Pratt is dead meat. He's in love and ready to get engaged, he's about to become the chief, everyone respects him and things are great with his little bro. We make fun of stuff like this now. When you can see a character death coming a mile away. 

I also forgot to share my love for two matter year recurring characters, Hope played by Busy Phillips and young Harold. Harold was so dopey but so sweet. And he had a full arc instead of just disappearing. Hope could have been a joke of a character but Busy killed it as she always does. I hate that she left and how they did it. Why start a LONG distance thing with her and Archie if they were going to break them up two episodes later abruptly?

Morris has two of the most bizarre end credit stills seeing as those are usually dramatic moments. One is him after he just masturbated after phone sex with Hope. Gross but funny. The other is him in the middle of being shocked for two minutes straight.

I think with actors wanting to leave, it' a actor thing. Wanting to leave in the most dramatic way possible.

Mekhi said he couldn't see Pratt leaving like well I'm off to a new hospital. Bye.

Edited June 12, 2018 by Racj82

[dargosmydaddy]

9 hours ago, doodlebug said:

Gray's Anatomy is kind of an anomaly.  Aside from it's very long run, there are few actors like Ellen Pompeo who are willing to stick with a show until the end.  As it is, she is just about the only original character still left, I believe (I don't watch the show). 

She's not. I don't really watch Grey's anymore, but of the nine original cast members, four (so almost half) are still there (Pompeo, Justin Chambers, Chandra Wilson, and James Pickens, Jr.). I would say their cast turnover was fairly similar to ER's, but Grey's is far more fond of big, dramatic exits (and story lines in general). Though admittedly no one ever had a helicopter fall on them. (But there was a plane crash. And an amputation, though a leg instead of an arm.)

[Racj82]

3 hours ago, dargosmydaddy said:

She's not. I don't really watch Grey's anymore, but of the nine original cast members, four (so almost half) are still there (Pompeo, Justin Chambers, Chandra Wilson, and James Pickens, Jr.). I would say their cast turnover was fairly similar to ER's, but Grey's is far more fond of big, dramatic exits (and story lines in general). Though admittedly no one ever had a helicopter fall on them. (But there was a plane crash. And an amputation, though a leg instead of an arm.)

I'm sorry but that whole plain crash more ridiculous than anything ER ever did. Top off by a character being eaten by woods after they died. 

In terms of departures Grey's got lucky in that they had multiple people happy with where they were at. ER found a way to bounce back quite well though.

[dargosmydaddy]

18 hours ago, Racj82 said:

I'm sorry but that whole plain crash more ridiculous than anything ER ever did.

On it's own, yes. I still think Romano both losing an arm due to a helicopter and later having a helicopter falling on him is the most over-the-top ridiculous story line any drama may have ever done. :)

Like I said, Grey's overall was always more extreme/ unbelievable than ER. They copied a lot of ER stories, and dialed them up to eleven. But I think ER in its last couple seasons tried to emulate Grey's a bit, too, since Grey's was the wildly successful new thing and ER was flagging.

Edited June 13, 2018 by dargosmydaddy

[debraran]

1 hour ago, dargosmydaddy said:

On it's own, yes. I still think Romano both losing an arm due to a helicopter and later having a helicopter falling on him is the most over-the-top ridiculous story line any drama may have ever done. :)

Like I said, Grey's overall was always more extreme/ unbelievable than ER. They copied a lot of ER stories, and dialed them up to eleven. But I think ER in its last couple seasons tried to emulate Grey's a bit, too, since Grey's was the wildly successful new thing and ER was flagging. a

 

I agree 100% but ER was flagging not just because of length of time on the air, it was written terribly considering the scripts prior. I didn't really remember why I stopped watching, catching the Carter and 'old cast" episodes back when it aired, but now I do. I will keep watching but do FF through some ER scenes or half listen to Sam talking to the policeman, it's more soap opera nonsense than a script. I try to picture, Benton,Green, Doug, Corday etc saying some of the tripe they do and it's impossible. Why they did that, I'll never know but they still interjected some quality writing in between while nostalgia kept it going.

Different type of show, but Michael Landon said that about his LHOP show, it went on too long, but love of the show kept it going 3-4 more years.  I feel that way with ER, you just hated to see it close.

Edited June 13, 2018 by debraran

[Racj82]

Finished my rewatch.

I legitimately think that there was never a bad season. Seasons with more troubling decisions than others but never bad.

I've been of the opinion that a lot of tv related opinions get blown out of proportion through the internet and that reality isn't as severe. This is all left up to the individual of course. No one is wrong. But, it's just my perspective.

ER was never bad. I don't even think there is a better days behind them scenario. Just different.  There was tons good characters and quality writing post season 8. It was just different. I actually liked the growing focus on the medicine and teaching as time goes on. I think i learned more about medicine and how the different units within the hospital work in latter seasons than earlier ones.

Yes, there is always a point where shows should end. From a overall big picture viewpoint. But, at the end of the day, the hospital was the star of the show. As long as the hospital doors were open, there were stories to tell. I don't think the sun rose and set with Mark as far as the show is concerned either. I loved him for sure. But, Carter as the center and even with Morris and Pratt, it still worked.

I did see some pushing to be more sexy and soap operaish but I don't hold that against the show. They had to compete with new games in town. The most egregious may be Neela and Gates going at it front of glass windows in their fucking place of work. And of course, Ray was the one to see it. But, the show still excelled in spite of the reaching.

When it's all said and done, Morris may honestly be my favorite ER character ever. His rise to being the heart of the ER is beautiful. I cheered all his accomplishments. I wanted the best for him. The penultimate episode may be when I finally figured it all out. How great he was with the heart transplant kids. So full of life. He was in love. So great with that little girl. I just him and Scott Grimes in the role. And i fucking hated him when  he first came on.

All in all, this was a truly rewarding rewatch. Doesn't get much better than this on tv. They want to bring it back, do a reunion, movie? I don't care. Bring it on.

[debraran]

5 hours ago, Racj82 said:

 

When it's all said and done, Morris may honestly be my favorite ER character ever. His rise to being the heart of the ER is beautiful. I cheered all his accomplishments. I wanted the best for him. The penultimate episode may be when I finally figured it all out. How great he was with the heart transplant kids. So full of life. He was in love. So great with that little girl. I just him and Scott Grimes in the role. And i fucking hated him when  he first came on.

All in all, this was a truly rewarding rewatch. Doesn't get much better than this on tv. They want to bring it back, do a reunion, movie? I don't care. Bring it on.

I never thought I'd like him and I do. The Xmas episode got me, the Santa and all the other stuff. He showed a lot of growth and when he spoke about his dad with Abby (who needed to leave) I could see why he was the way his was even more.  Gates, just isn't growing on me, he can do nice things but the sophomoric stuff, I don't know. Might just be a personal thing with Stamos.  Morris had more growth than Doug, I never really saw that with Ross, he got himself in a situation where he had to leave, they had him just dump Carol in a sense, he wasn't there for the birth, etc., that wasn't handled the best even with having half a couple, but their "reunion" brought stellar ratings.

I also like more medical knowledge shown but the sex seemed to be out of control, even with Morris and the girls chasing him in the last episode I watched, the ambulance phone sex, the constant talk around patients about dates and needing a man.  It was like "enough!" we get it.  lol

I also like Dr Moretti, not a fav of some it seems. I like his character, his grins and hidden faces after someone does something. I think he would have made a good long term character but I hear he leaves for his son and doesn't return.  Having him with Abby from what I read here wasn't the best script, does everyone have to be with Abby even after marriage?  ; )

Edited June 14, 2018 by debraran

[txhorns79]

Quote

In terms of departures Grey's got lucky in that they had multiple people happy with where they were at. ER found a way to bounce back quite well though.

With ER, I think there was a point where there was cast bloat, i.e. too many regulars with too little to do and too little development.  By the end, they pared things back to just a few regulars and streamlined the stories considerably. 

[ch1]

46 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

With ER, I think there was a point where there was cast bloat, i.e. too many regulars with too little to do and too little development.  By the end, they pared things back to just a few regulars and streamlined the stories considerably. 

That would be season 6.  It seemed like they hired everyone and their mother that year and season 8 seemed to be when they started writing the dead weight off.  

[doodlebug]

3 hours ago, ch1 said:

That would be season 6.  It seemed like they hired everyone and their mother that year and season 8 seemed to be when they started writing the dead weight off.  

Yep, in Season 6, in the wake of Clooney's departure and the imminent departure of Margulies; they went overboard and brought way too many people on board.  I think TPTB were trying to not only compensate for those who had already left or were leaving soon, but also to get new characters lined up for when the rest of the originals decided to leave.  It was way too much all at once.  Also, since Clooney and Margulies had been romantic leads, they cast Tierney and Visnijc as their replacements almost immediately, rather than waiting and seeing what might develop organically. Then, when they felt they'd struck gold with Abby and her family, they cut most of the newbies adrift devote massive screen time to Abby and her neverending misery.  Seasons 7 and into 8 were probably the worst of the show's run as TPTB tried to force their gameplan to work, no matter what.

[Dr.OO7]

On 6/15/2018 at 4:19 PM, doodlebug said:

Also, since Clooney and Margulies had been romantic leads, they cast Tierney and Visnijc as their replacements almost immediately, rather than waiting and seeing what might develop organically. Then, when they felt they'd struck gold with Abby and her family, they cut most of the newbies adrift devote massive screen time to Abby and her neverending misery.  Seasons 7 and into 8 were probably the worst of the show's run as TPTB tried to force their gameplan to work, no matter what.

It's a shame. Abby started out perfectly fine and could have stayed that way had they not decided to make the show all about her and her miserable life.  I honestly liked her in Season 6, but by the sixth episode of Season 7, I couldn't stand her.  And it was really to the detriment of the other newcomers--Dave could have gotten the very same character development that Morris did years later, Cleo could have had more to do than be Benton's African-American girlfriend, etc.

[txhorns79]

Quote

And it was really to the detriment of the other newcomers--Dave could have gotten the very same character development that Morris did years later, Cleo could have had more to do than be Benton's African-American girlfriend, etc.

It's interesting you brought up Dave.  For whatever reason, I saw on Twitter that a fan had asked Erik Palladino whether it was his choice to go or he was purposefully written out, and he said it was kind of both. 

And for fun, during Season 1, ER had six regulars.  By Season 6, at its peak, before Lucy dies, but after Jeannie leaves, the cast has 13 regular characters. 

[doodlebug]

2 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

It's interesting you brought up Dave.  For whatever reason, I saw on Twitter that a fan had asked Erik Palladino whether it was his choice to go or he was purposefully written out, and he said it was kind of both. 

And for fun, during Season 1, ER had six regulars.  By Season 6, at its peak, before Lucy dies, but after Jeannie leaves, the cast has 13 regular characters. 

I knew someone who knew him back in the day and this is third hand; but, the way he told the story back then, it wasn't his choice to leave although he was far from happy with the amount of storyline (virtually none) he was given.  In any event, he seems to be happy with the direction his career has taken since then.

[txhorns79]

Quote

It's a shame. Abby started out perfectly fine and could have stayed that way had they not decided to make the show all about her and her miserable life.  I honestly liked her in Season 6, but by the sixth episode of Season 7, I couldn't stand her. 

Abby has her moments in Season 6.  For example, she gets way too into the business of a father and daughter (played by 5 year old Dakota Fanning) who were in an accident and the daughter has leukemia.  The father tells Abby his daughter has a half-sister, but his divorce with the girl's mother poisoned the relationship.  He tells Abby several times to leave the situation alone, but she doesn't and confronts the mother and daughter, and again Abby is asked to butt out.  The daughter later shows up at the hospital and Abby begins taking blood from the minor daughter without consent from the mother until Weaver stops her, tells Abby that she could be failed for her rotation if she pulls something like this and orders her to butt out.  Abby then calls the mom, manipulates her into giving consent and all is well.  While I liked the end result, I really hated that Abby's bad behavior was retroactively justified.   

On a positive note, I really like Mark's storyline with his father.  John Cullum is excellent and he makes the entire story work. 

[doodlebug]

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

Abby has her moments in Season 6.  For example, she gets way too into the business of a father and daughter (played by 5 year old Dakota Fanning) who were in an accident and the daughter has leukemia.  The father tells Abby his daughter has a half-sister, but his divorce with the girl's mother poisoned the relationship.  He tells Abby several times to leave the situation alone, but she doesn't and confronts the mother and daughter, and again Abby is asked to butt out.  The daughter later shows up at the hospital and Abby begins taking blood from the minor daughter without consent from the mother until Weaver stops her, tells Abby that she could be failed for her rotation if she pulls something like this and orders her to butt out.  Abby then calls the mom, manipulates her into giving consent and all is well.  While I liked the end result, I really hated that Abby's bad behavior was retroactively justified.   

On a positive note, I really like Mark's storyline with his father.  John Cullum is excellent and he makes the entire story work. 

Abby was constantly butting into her patients' private lives and telling them how to live.  It was a problem for other characters on the show, but she really stood out.  In one of her other cases as a student, she is evaluating a young mother with a bunch of kids who finds out she is pregnant again.  Having spent all of 5 minutes with her, Abby discovers she is not happy about the pregnancy and all but performs an abortion on her herself, even after the woman tells her that her husband would not approve. The whole thing was awful and later, after the procedure, the wife does end up with regrets.  

Of course, there are numerous examples of Abby trying to force her mother and brother to manage their bipolar disorder in the way she wants; mainly seeming to want them locked away from the rest of the world where they can't bother her and speaking to them in the most awful demeaning ways.  It was no wonder that they both moved out of state to get away from her and seemingly had limited contact.  She was one of the least loving sister and daughter ever seen on TV,  just an awful human being.

Probably the most disturbing case of Abby overstepping her bounds was when James Woods guest starred as her former med school prof.  He had ALS and he and his partner had agreed that he would not have a tracheotomy/be placed on a ventilator; a reasonable option and one that many ALS patients take.  But, oh no, Abby, who apparently hasn't even seen him in years, decides he must agree to the trach, that his well thought out preferences were wrong and essentially bullies him and his partner and finally performs the trach without consent when he is not conscious.  Horrific.  

Somehow, I think TPTB wanted us to think that Abby was noble and heroic when she did these kinds of things, it had the opposite effect on me.

Edited June 19, 2018 by doodlebug

[Dr.OO7]

I think my least favorite was when she was butting into Luka's relationship with Nicole (his idiotic decision to bring her into a trauma aside). From the very beginning when got pissy because Nicole had the audacity to be nice to him, to when she and Chuny were mocking her literally behind her back to the end when she "forgot" that the pregnant Nicole shouldn't have caffeine (bull to the fucking shit, you're a nurse, and an OB nurse at that. You did not forget that a pregnant woman shouldn't have caffeine, you were trying to trick her to determine if she was lying) her interference drove me crazy. The man broke up with you, that means his personal life is no longer any of your business.

 

As poorly as she handled things with her mother and brother, I can understand it. She's been through 30-something years of literal ups and downs with her mother, it's perfectly reasonable that she'd be very jaded and cynical regarding Maggie's recovery, not to mention terrified of going through it all over again with Eric, as well as wary of Maggie's ability to look after Eric.

Edited June 19, 2018 by Camille

[doodlebug]

2 minutes ago, Camille said:

I think my least favorite was when she was butting into his relationship with Nicole. From the very beginning when she and Chuny were mocking her literally behind her back to the end when she "forgot" that the pregnant Nicole shouldn't have caffeine--bull to the fucking shit, you're a nurse, and an OB nurse at that. You did not forget that a pregnant woman shouldn't have caffeine, you were trying to trick her to determine if she was lying--her interference drove me crazy. The man broke up with you, that means his personal life is no longer any of your business.

And, being an OB nurse, Abby shoud’ve known that a cup or two of coffee is no big deal in pregnancy and whether Nicole drank it or not was meaningless.

In the Nicole storyline, we once again had  Abby coercing a pregnant woman into terminating a pregnancy.  It was none of her damned business whether Nicole was pregnant and her incessant browbeating of Nicole, making it clear she thought she should get rid of the pregnancy and leave town without involving Luka in any of it was absolutely vile.  It was none of her business, they were both adults, just shut up, Abby.

[debraran]

5 hours ago, Camille said:

I think my least favorite was when she was butting into Luka's relationship with Nicole (his idiotic decision to bring her into a trauma aside). From the very beginning when got pissy because Nicole had the audacity to be nice to him, to when she and Chuny were mocking her literally behind her back to the end when she "forgot" that the pregnant Nicole shouldn't have caffeine (bull to the fucking shit, you're a nurse, and an OB nurse at that. You did not forget that a pregnant woman shouldn't have caffeine, you were trying to trick her to determine if she was lying) her interference drove me crazy. The man broke up with you, that means his personal life is no longer any of your business.

 

 

And what made that funny was that that later all she did was drink coffee pregnant and say it was "fine now" : ) Nicole story was not a fav of mine in general but yes, Abby did butt in a lot.

I did like the James Wood episode Body and Soul (directed by our Romano) in that he was wonderful and although we never saw the past scenes before, we saw the slow progression of the disease and he was great projecting the feelings he had. Abby did butt in as usual but he had a strong personality and she did say if I remember correctly that she would help him if he decided to end it later. This involvement you rarely see in real life.

One continuity error was that Romano and Chen were at Green's memorial and they said in flashback that Chen and Romano were working and that a lot of staff were attending. You tend to catch more of that watching 3 or 4 at a time vs weeks apart but I thought it was funny with Paul McCrane directing.

Edited June 19, 2018 by debraran

[txhorns79]

Quote

Abby was constantly butting into her patients' private lives and telling them how to live.  It was a problem for other characters on the show, but she really stood out.  In one of her other cases as a student, she is evaluating a young mother with a bunch of kids who finds out she is pregnant again.  Having spent all of 5 minutes with her, Abby discovers she is not happy about the pregnancy and all but performs an abortion on her herself, even after the woman tells her that her husband would not approve. The whole thing was awful and later, after the procedure, the wife does end up with regrets.  

That's interesting.  I read that storyline in an entirely different way.  I saw the mother giving Abby signals about wanting the abortion (I believe it's found out she had tried to starve herself to cause a miscarriage), but Abby being reticent about the mother having one.  I don't think the mother did regret the abortion.  I thought she was kind of resigning herself to having more children because her husband was very controlling, was defiantly opposed to her having an abortion and she didn't have the ability to make it clear to him what she wanted.   

Edited June 19, 2018 by txhorns79

[doodlebug]

4 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

That's interesting.  I read that storyline in an entirely different way.  I saw the mother giving Abby signals about wanting the abortion (I believe it's found out she had tried to starve herself to cause a miscarriage), but Abby being reticent about the mother having one.  I don't think the mother did regret the abortion.  I thought she was kind of resigning herself to having more children because her husband was very controlling, was defiantly opposed to her having an abortion and she didn't have the ability to make it clear to him what she wanted.   

 

I do agree that the woman was very passive and that her husband was domineering and controlling, but, in a way, I saw Abby behaving just like her husband; the woman was uncertain and insecure, so Abby took the reins and pushed her towards the abortion.  Starving oneself in hopes of causing a miscarriage has got to be one of the most passive acts ever.  IMO, Abby played on the woman's very real psychological  issues just as her husband had.  Getting her a social work and psych consult to help her better understand her motives and her options would've been far more helpful than getting her an instant abortion which her husband was very likely to discover.  She needed help, but Abby gave her help based on what Abby wanted and what Abby would've done (and what Abby had done as it turns out).  Just because Abby went out and got an abortion without involving her husband when she was faced with an unwanted pregnancy doesn't mean it is the right answer for every woman.  Abby apparently had no problem keeping the secret from Richard; it was pretty obvious from the start that her patient was not someone who was going to be able to have a secret abortion and live with it afterwards.

Edited June 19, 2018 by doodlebug

[RedbirdNelly]

On ‎6‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 6:04 PM, debraran said:

 

I also like Dr Moretti, not a fav of some it seems. I like his character, his grins and hidden faces after someone does something. I think he would have made a good long term character but I hear he leaves for his son and doesn't return.  Having him with Abby from what I read here wasn't the best script, does everyone have to be with Abby even after marriage?  ; )

I liked Moretti--wish he had been longer term with more storylines (and no sleeping with Abby).

Felt the same thing about Eve (though she does not sleep with Abby).

[Racj82]

2 hours ago, RedbirdNelly said:

I liked Moretti--wish he had been longer term with more storylines (and no sleeping with Abby).

Felt the same thing about Eve (though she does not sleep with Abby).

I honestly think they only brought in Moretti to sleep with Abby. He's a outsider they can write out at anytime as opposed to her sleeping with Pratt or someone they could never walk back.

The show did lean too much on Abby but I appreciated her more upon rewatch. I saw more of her connections inside the hospital, whereas I used to just think she had no bonds with anyone she wasn't dating. She really did have fun connections with Morris, Pratt, Sam and Neela. 

I don't think Abby was ever cut out for being a teacher though. She's the type that rather do then teach. I don't think that ever really changed. A little better but it didn't progress in the way Pratt and Morris did.

[debraran]

I just watched the episode with Morris when a guy with a gun who had robbed a jewelry store wanted them to save his girlfriend. (Under Pressure) I thought Morris shined in that one and the ending was a little bit of a surprise, I thought he might kill himself and the cops killed him without cause at that point. The actor that played Daniel had that "Ed Norton" look. The scripts would take it away from Morris on occasion but he matured a great deal. The shenanigans though with Gates and Sam, the sex on breaks, finding footage of them having sex ,this isn't the ER I loved, it seems geared to teens. Brenner I don't get at all, the first time I saw him he was in bed with 2 women, one couldn't get enough of him and then the next scene he is at the hospital. I thought I had the wrong show at first. Yesterday he told a black med student she wasn't good in bed, it just kept getting worse. My daughter bailed but I just FF a little. Does he get any better?

I liked The Book of Abby, a much better episode than previously. They have in a CA  a display of the ER badges at the studio it was filmed. I thought the wall would have been nice too.

 

Edited June 23, 2018 by debraran

[Racj82]

On 6/22/2018 at 5:57 PM, debraran said:

I just watched the episode with Morris when a guy with a gun who had robbed a jewelry store wanted them to save his girlfriend. (Under Pressure) I thought Morris shined in that one and the ending was a little bit of a surprise, I thought he might kill himself and the cops killed him without cause at that point. The actor that played Daniel had that "Ed Norton" look. The scripts would take it away from Morris on occasion but he matured a great deal. The shenanigans though with Gates and Sam, the sex on breaks, finding footage of them having sex ,this isn't the ER I loved, it seems geared to teens. Brenner I don't get at all, the first time I saw him he was in bed with 2 women, one couldn't get enough of him and then the next scene he is at the hospital. I thought I had the wrong show at first. Yesterday he told a black med student she wasn't good in bed, it just kept getting worse. My daughter bailed but I just FF a little. Does he get any better?

I liked The Book of Abby, a much better episode than previously. They have in a CA  a display of the ER badges at the studio it was filmed. I thought the wall would have been nice too.

 

 

Brenner gets better. They introduced him in the worst way possible. Especially since he was basically taking Pratt's attending spot. They delve into his backstory as he begins to open up more. It's not great as you would assume from this show. But, that's not why he got better. He became a much better teacher and his arc with Alex from Modern Family was honestly really sweet. Was never interested in him with Neela though.

Edited June 24, 2018 by Racj82

[txhorns79]

I have been watching Season 7, and I forgot how much better and worse some stories were during this season.

Sally Field is doing all the acting with Maggie, but the storyline itself is actually good.  You see Abby just kind of resigned to her mother's sudden appearance and what it inevitably will mean, followed by her breakdown when Maggie vanishes into the night is very well done.   

I also forgot how much I did not care about Peter's dead nephew's girlfriend.  The girl is a walking disaster area who is completely worthless.  Do not get involved with this girl, Peter.  She is a black hole who destroys everything she touches. 

And just for fun, the episode where Corday rushes a surgery and injures a patient aired November 16, 2000.  She is served with notice of the lawsuit the next episode, followed by her deposition during the episode that aired December 7, 2000.  So within about three weeks of the surgery, she has been sued and is giving a discovery deposition.  In no way would a lawsuit ever move at such a rapid pace.   

[doodlebug]

51 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I have been watching Season 7, and I forgot how much better and worse some stories were during this season.

Sally Field is doing all the acting with Maggie, but the storyline itself is actually good.  You see Abby just kind of resigned to her mother's sudden appearance and what it inevitably will mean, followed by her breakdown when Maggie vanishes into the night is very well done.   

I also forgot how much I did not care about Peter's dead nephew's girlfriend.  The girl is a walking disaster area who is completely worthless.  Do not get involved with this girl, Peter.  She is a black hole who destroys everything she touches. 

And just for fun, the episode where Corday rushes a surgery and injures a patient aired November 16, 2000.  She is served with notice of the lawsuit the next episode, followed by her deposition during the episode that aired December 7, 2000.  So within about three weeks of the surgery, she has been sued and is giving a discovery deposition.  In no way would a lawsuit ever move at such a rapid pace.   

The suit ends up being settled just a couple episodes later, making it the quickest malpractice case ever.  In real life, it takes a year, sometimes more, for the plaintiff's attorneys to get all the records, have them reviewed, decide on the merits and then file the suit.  Then, it is usually another year or more after the suit is filed before all of the main parties or deposed and expert witnesses found and also deposed.  Eventually, presuming it isn't dropped or settled, the case goes to trial.  Cases that go to trial generally are for incidents that happened four or more years earlier.  Anyone who thinks civil litigation is a way to earn a quick buck, doesn't understand the system.  When you hear of a suit settling quickly, it's because something blatantly negligent occurred.  A case like Elizabeth's was very defensible, he suffered a known complication of that particular surgery.  County would not have been very quick to settle.

Mark's malpractice suit in the Jodie O'Brien incident also went incredibly fast as did the suit after the death of Chris Law, the guy who was mistaken for a gang banger but was actually a victim.  It is also very unusual for the plaintiff to be present at the deposition of a defendant.  As an OB/GYN, I've given a lot of depositions in 30 years.  Only once was the plaintiff present, and, it happened that that person was also an attorney (though not in malpractice) which is probably why he wanted to be there.

Edited June 26, 2018 by doodlebug

[debraran]

Yes working in a large medical office for years, I can also attest, years go by before law suits are settled, but TV has always been very quick for solving problems, settling cases, recovering from surgery, finishing school, the list goes on. ; )  My husband would always hate cop shows, being one, although liked the old Law and Order for what it was. He felt because they settled court cases so quickly and brought other cases to conclusion in an hour it made his job harder. Most people understand it's TV but he would still hear very often, "Can't you just do this, like Law and Order does?  lol

I'm watching the Angela Basset episodes now. I liked her time with Archie at the conference, her singing and discussing her journey to recover from the loss of her child with her husband. She never seemed to get counseling which is sad because her desperation now is so palatable and almost hard to watch in having a child of her own. I really enjoyed seeing Dr Green again and he didn't change much so it was easy, I also loved seeing Romano and Weaver. I admit I watched that scene with Romano and Greene and Weaver twice, it made me nostalgic. Well done by all.

Edited June 26, 2018 by debraran

[txhorns79]

Quote

It is also very unusual for the plaintiff to be present at the deposition of a defendant. 

It can be unusual, but I've had it happen a few times.  It made sense within the context of the episode since the plaintiff's attorney was hoping to use the guy to upset Elizabeth.  Though I suppose it was rather amazing that he had recovered enough from the botched surgery to be out and about within  just a few weeks of the event.   

[doodlebug]

3 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

It can be unusual, but I've had it happen a few times.  It made sense within the context of the episode since the plaintiff's attorney was hoping to use the guy to upset Elizabeth.  Though I suppose it was rather amazing that he had recovered enough from the botched surgery to be out and about within  just a few weeks of the event.   

I think a lot of plaintiff's attorneys wouldn't want the client present at the defendant's deposition if only because they would be concerned that the plaintiff would get emotional or interrupt or otherwise disrupt the deposition.  It is far more likely that a plaintiff is going to do something to help the defendant than that the plaintiff's presence is going to be so upsetting to the defendant that he/she has a melt down and says something that helps the plaintiff.  The defense team coaches the doctors very thoroughly, and, as medical professionals, we're used to controlling our emotions in a professional setting.  Many of us have also been deposed multiple times. Plaintiffs don't have those advantages which is why most plaintiff attorneys don't want them around for the deposition.  On TV, having the plaintiff present makes the defendant fold like a cheap lawn chair and hand the case to the plaintiff's side.  Doesn't happen that way in real life from what I've experienced. 

At the depo where the plaintiff was present, it only galvanized my resolve to give simple, short answers and stick strictly to the facts as I knew them.  The plaintiff kept writing notes and passing them to his attorney, but I didn't notice anything different than the usual deposition, I doubt his notes were all that helpful.

[RedbirdNelly]

claiming a guest star bingo square --season 14, Deacon from Nashville (Charles Esten) shows up in (so far I believe) 2 episodes as an orthopedist. He looks a lot younger and just different. I do like how sometimes I can appreciate someone's acting better when I see them in a different role. He just comes across very different from Deacon. Maybe it's the absence of constant yelling.

[txhorns79]

Can I just say I find the show's "Kerry is a lesbian" storyline to be so strangely handled.  From the odd set up of Kerry pondering various things in the shower to it feeling like most of her relationship with Kim happens entirely off screen and we are just meant to intuit where their relationship is and goes.  I get that it was 2000/2001 and ER is not The L Word, but for something so substantial for a main character, the show really doesn't seem to know what to do with the story.   

Also, shut up Carter.  There are times when you just want someone to punch his smirk right off his face. 

[izabella]

I haven't seen this show since its first run, and I never saw all the episodes nor all the seasons, so it's been fun getting reacquainted.  I'm in the second season now, and am watching the episode where Emily Valentine sleeps with Ross, and Green finds out by running into her at Doug's place the next morning.  Mark is furious that Doug slept with a med student, and is supposed to report him and they could both be fired if Mark doesn't report it.  Wow, such a different reaction from Mark on ER than interns sleeping with doctors on Gray's Anatomy! 

[debraran]

On Old Times now, with Ross and Benton etc. I wish Doug had asked about the nurses or Green, Carter, etc. but it was nice to see them all again. Carol and Doug seemed a little stiff to me at times, some of the banter, not as fluid, but Benton and Carter, that was the same.   I remember reading how they said it was like time stood still.

I never thought I'd like Morris but he really grew on me.  The writing wasn't always the best after the first half, some days I just shook my head, but other episodes .it was like the old ER, like old times. : )

Edited July 1, 2018 by debraran

[WendyCR72]

The thing about "Old Times" for me was that I really appreciated George Clooney coming back for another cameo appearance. By that point, he certainly didn't have to and was well past his time on ER in terms of successes, but he never forgot the show or the people. So it was great to have one last glimpse of Doug Ross.

Not every actor is so great about embracing their past.

[debraran]

10 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

The thing about "Old Times" for me was that I really appreciated George Clooney coming back for another cameo appearance. By that point, he certainly didn't have to and was well past his time on ER in terms of successes, but he never forgot the show or the people. So it was great to have one last glimpse of Doug Ross.

Not every actor is so great about embracing their past.

Yes, his one condition was they didn't say anything, he didn't want all the interviews, etc.  He did ask about others with Neela and Sam, I don't recall Carol doing that although she supposedly kept in touch with the nurses. Probably wasn't a big deal at the time, but when you watch a bunch of episodes at once, the time between seems closer.

I was surprised they gave Carter Fentanyl since that was the drug he was using back in the day but sometimes you need a strong drug for a few days.  My only regret with Carter's character is that it seems so much of his life is "sort of " with Kem and he never had the family he wanted or a close relationship that lasted. Maybe because I never felt the chemistry with him and Kem, it's harder to see him hanging in there and although I only have a couple of episodes left, I hear it's still vague at the end.

[MVFrostsMyPie]

I wonder if they also gave him that other drug he was taking to counteract the euphoric effects of the fentanyl. The name isn't coming to me now. Folks wth more knowledge, do you think Carter would have continued taking that drug for the rest of time or just until he felt he had more control over his addiction or until the hospital stopped monitoring him and giving him drug tests? 

[doodlebug]

5 hours ago, MVFrostsMyPie said:

I wonder if they also gave him that other drug he was taking to counteract the euphoric effects of the fentanyl. The name isn't coming to me now. Folks wth more knowledge, do you think Carter would have continued taking that drug for the rest of time or just until he felt he had more control over his addiction or until the hospital stopped monitoring him and giving him drug tests? 

Most likely, he was given regular doses of a non-narcotic pain reliever like ibuprofen and got narcotics as needed to fill in.  He and his doctor probably worked out a schedule, gave him limited quantities and mutually agreed on how long he would take narcotics postop.

[RedbirdNelly]

still working my way through season 14. Last night was the first appearance of Dr. Simon Brenner, a character I had completely forgotten. Also appearing at the same time as him is a nurse I don't recall seeing before--and I think I would remember because she is Jessica from True Blood. Looks a lot the same. (Debra Ann Moll)

previously watched the episode where Neela joins the orthopedist hockey team. It was the joke story line of the night but I was still distracted by "isn't someone going to get hurt and not be able to do surgery any more?"

[debraran]

7 minutes ago, RedbirdNelly said:

still working my way through season 14. Last night was the first appearance of Dr. Simon Brenner, a character I had completely forgotten. Also appearing at the same time as him is a nurse I don't recall seeing before--and I think I would remember because she is Jessica from True Blood. Looks a lot the same. (Debra Ann Moll)

previously watched the episode where Neela joins the orthopedist hockey team. It was the joke story line of the night but I was still distracted by "isn't someone going to get hurt and not be able to do surgery any more?"

Yes not the sport they guys at my ortho office would want to do. ; ) Some play basketball but not often, the jammed finger can be problematic. I think it's a way to get out of some chores at home too. lol

[tallykat]

I have just started Season 10, binging on Hulu, and it really is different when there is no break between episodes.

First of all, I have to say that I need a membership in the “I Cannot Stand Abby” club. I’ll buy the t-shirt, the hat, and the tote bag. I didn’t remember that it took quite a while for her to go back to med school. She’s still a nurse right now. I tried really hard to be sympathetic to her family problems but no way do I like any of my siblings so much! Geez, just marry Eric already! Of course, I never practically raised my brother. But leaving Carter to go get her brother after Gamma died—that was cold! She made her choice right then and there and John should have told her not to show up for the funeral. My heart ached for those not-really-real people having to experience a drunk manic showing up at their loved one’s funeral. But the kicker was John coming back from Africa and her attitude. Not so much for kicking him out of the apartment, but the break-up fight they had afterwards where she is all “you LEFT me, you left ME! Me! Me! Me!” And in the next breath said that it wasn’t all about her, he had problems too. Abby, if you truly were sorry about bringing your brother to Gamma’s funeral, you have to make amends. But all you did was pile up more on Carter and tell him he has put up a wall, when he just shared with you about his trip to Africa. She’s a flake and a half and I don’t know if I can finish the show knowing it becomes the Abby Hour.

Someone complained about Mark taking his time to die (two seasons). But he did spend some of that time in remission. He went pretty quick it seemed from discovery of the tumor reappearance and his death. 

And Kerry and the Alderman. Yikes! I had forgotten about that.

[tallykat]

I have a question. Maybe more than one, but only one that I can think of right now. The Ed Asner fake doctor character—what was the deal with that? He really didn’t scam The Carter Foundation, did he? I mean, he would have done better to take Carter’s first check. John would have had no reason to go back to the clinic to check on him. TCF had plenty of time to put a stop payment on the check or definitely track the guy down for fraud. Was it to show us how naive and incompetent John would be as the president of Gamma’s foundation? Also, as the manager of a (very small) foundation, we can only give money to a 501(c)(3) organization. TCF can’t just be writing checks to Doc Ed at the clinic. Ok, so that wouldn’t work for the show, too boringly real, but are we supposed to believe that Doc Ed is sitting on a beach in Florida with his nurse/assistant?

[doodlebug]

44 minutes ago, tallykat said:

I have a question. Maybe more than one, but only one that I can think of right now. The Ed Asner fake doctor character—what was the deal with that? He really didn’t scam The Carter Foundation, did he? I mean, he would have done better to take Carter’s first check. John would have had no reason to go back to the clinic to check on him. TCF had plenty of time to put a stop payment on the check or definitely track the guy down for fraud. Was it to show us how naive and incompetent John would be as the president of Gamma’s foundation? Also, as the manager of a (very small) foundation, we can only give money to a 501(c)(3) organization. TCF can’t just be writing checks to Doc Ed at the clinic. Ok, so that wouldn’t work for the show, too boringly real, but are we supposed to believe that Doc Ed is sitting on a beach in Florida with his nurse/assistant?

The whole thing was  completely  nonsensical and was a waste of Ed Asner's talents.  First, remember that Carter met Asner's character when he came to the ER with blood sugar problems.  So, he was setting Carter up?  How did he know he'd be seen by Carter?  None of the other ER docs, of which there would've been dozens, was in a position to donate the kind of cash Carter could.  How did Asner finagle meeting Carter and then making sure he found out about his clinic?  Then, we have to presume Asner set up an entire fake medical clinic, complete with patients, in an abandoned building without being noticed, on the off chance Carter might turn up looking for him?  Huh?  Next, Carter gives him a pretty sizable check and he acts put out about it.  How does that work out for him?  How would that spur Carter into giving him even more dough?  Finally, he shuts the whole scam down and skips town on a moments' notice.  

The entire storyline was absurd.

[debraran]

Re Ed Asner, I took it at the time that Carter was naive and without as much computer background checking, he missed a lot. He was also young and inexperienced and probably wouldn't make that mistake again. It was also a good twist for the show, an unexpected turn, but in my opinion, really dumb.

I just finished the last show, loved seeing the gang together again, but have 2 questions on past stories I might have missed or misunderstood.

Did the heart transplant woman die or just have her heart reject the drugs for a time, she seemed to be in a coma and Brenner is visiting in the last show (woman's daughter is always there alone) Were we supposed to surmise an ending or did I miss something?

Also with Carter helping with explosion, would he miss Kem (again) and was that vague on purpose? He stays or goes....I guess it doesn't matter but Kem doesn't seem to want him. I don't get the purpose of that relationship. They had the initial lust, she got pregnant, they both decided to make it work, Joshua died, she regressed and left, he seemed to be alone a lot or sick and alone and very detached from her.  For Pete's sake, she didn't even know he was getting a kidney! For 7 years they haven't had a real marriage. She flies in for a few minutes for the grand opening,  to fly back again and doesn't seem to care if she sees Carter. I wish that part just wasn't in the great finale, but it is what it is.

Edited July 2, 2018 by debraran

[doodlebug]

7 minutes ago, debraran said:

fRe Ed Asner, I took it at the time that Carter was naive and without as much computer background checking, he missed a lot. He was also young and inexperienced and probably wouldn't make that mistake again. It was also a good twist for the show, an unexpected turn.

I just finished the last show, loved seeing the gang together again, but have 2 questions on past stories I might have missed or misunderstood.

Did the heart transplant woman die or just have her heart reject the drugs for a time, she seemed to be in a coma and Brenner is visiting in the last show (woman's daughter is always there alone) Were we supposed to surmise an ending or did I miss something?

Also with Carter helping with explosion, would he miss Kem (again) and was that vague on purpose? He stays or goes....I guess it doesn't matter but Kem doesn't seem to want him. I don't get the purpose of that relationship. They had the initial lust, she got pregnant, they both decided to make it work, Joshua died, she regressed and left, he seemed to be alone a lot or sick and alone and very detached from her.  For Pete's sack, she didn't even know he was getting a kidney! She flies in for a few minutes for the grand opening,  to fly back again and doesn't seem to care if she sees Carter. I wish that part just wasn't in the great finale, but it is what it is.

We never saw the transplant woman again.  At that point, her only hope seemed to be a new heart and the show implied it was very unlikely to occur/she might already have too much damage to other organs to survive even if she got a transplant.  Odds are, she died, but it would've been nice to hear it said and to at least get a little closure on the fate of her daughter.

Once again, we were allowed to decide for ourselves what happened.  Did Carter leave the trauma in time to see Kem?  Maybe.  Were things in the ER brought under control so he could leave?  I. too. don't think Kem cared for him the same way he did for her; had she not gotten pregnant, it would've been over shortly after it began.  Also, we were shown and told repeatedly that she didn't want to live in Chicago.  Meanwhile, Carter builds a clinic that is going to require nearly full time attention from him and means he must be in Chicago much of the time.  Seems to me, the odds they were ever going to work things out and end up together were extremely small.

Edited July 2, 2018 by doodlebug

[debraran]

1 hour ago, doodlebug said:

We never saw the transplant woman again.  At that point, her only hope seemed to be a new heart and the show implied it was very unlikely to occur/she might already have too much damage to other organs to survive even if she got a transplant.  Odds are, she died, but it would've been nice to hear it said and to at least get a little closure on the fate of her daughter.

Once again, we were allowed to decide for ourselves what happened.  Did Carter leave the trauma in time to see Kem?  Maybe.  Were things in the ER brought under control so he could leave?  I. too. don't think Kem cared for him the same way he did for her; had she not gotten pregnant, it would've been over shortly after it began.  Also, we were shown and told repeatedly that she didn't want to live in Chicago.  Meanwhile, Carter builds a clinic that is going to require nearly full time attention from him and means he must be in Chicago much of the time.  Seems to me, the odds they were ever going to work things out and end up together were extremely small.

 

I agree, he was going to be in Chicago with his friends and collegues and he always had a soft spot for babies/children. I know a death can make you not want to try again but Carter seemed to want a family even if Kem didn't . Whether he saw her with an old boyfriend early on or just talked of her like she was in limbo, it was odd after so many years. He's handsome, rich, smart, kind, there would be many women, altruistic like himself, that would have loved to team up with him to save the world (or Chicago) ; )  . Would have liked that ending better.

 I was confused with the heart transplant because they had her in more than one show, usually if they continue a story line (like the one with Ernest Borgnine) they show you the end. I felt sorry for her daughter and wondered how Brenner would help her.

Edited July 2, 2018 by debraran

[Dr.OO7]

9 hours ago, tallykat said:

But leaving Carter to go get her brother after Gamma died—that was cold!

As poorly as she handled that, and not to sound crass or insensitive, Gamma was already dead and it's not as though she was ditching Carter to go on a vacation with Eric. He'd been missing for months and could very well have disappeared again had she not gone to get him. She was between a rock and a hard place.

As far as bringing him to the funeral, that was plain idiotic.

8 hours ago, doodlebug said:

9 hours ago, tallykat said:

I have a question. Maybe more than one, but only one that I can think of right now. The Ed Asner fake doctor character—what was the deal with that? He really didn’t scam The Carter Foundation, did he? I mean, he would have done better to take Carter’s first check. John would have had no reason to go back to the clinic to check on him. TCF had plenty of time to put a stop payment on the check or definitely track the guy down for fraud. Was it to show us how naive and incompetent John would be as the president of Gamma’s foundation? Also, as the manager of a (very small) foundation, we can only give money to a 501(c)(3) organization. TCF can’t just be writing checks to Doc Ed at the clinic. Ok, so that wouldn’t work for the show, too boringly real, but are we supposed to believe that Doc Ed is sitting on a beach in Florida with his nurse/assistant?

The whole thing was  completely  nonsensical and was a waste of Ed Asner's talents.  First, remember that Carter met Asner's character when he came to the ER with blood sugar problems.  So, he was setting Carter up?  How did he know he'd be seen by Carter?  None of the other ER docs, of which there would've been dozens, was in a position to donate the kind of cash Carter could.  How did Asner finagle meeting Carter and then making sure he found out about his clinic?  Then, we have to presume Asner set up an entire fake medical clinic, complete with patients, in an abandoned building without being noticed, on the off chance Carter might turn up looking for him?  Huh?  Next, Carter gives him a pretty sizable check and he acts put out about it.  How does that work out for him?  How would that spur Carter into giving him even more dough?  Finally, he shuts the whole scam down and skips town on a moments' notice.  

The entire storyline was absurd

It made no sense at all. Asner certainly didn't approach the situation like a scam artist. He couldn't have anticipated Carter coming to his clinic and he didn't seem to have any idea that Carter was wealthy until he started to write him the check. Which, indeed, as pointed out, he rejected. Hell, he STILL acted reluctant to take it by the time Carter gave him the second check. A check which Carter could have easily put a stop payment on once he realized that he'd been had.

I guess the whole thing was a part of the larger "Carter is dissatisfied with his life and decides to pull up stakes arc" that started halfway through that season, but it was poorly done.

As to why Carter wrote him the check in the first place, I think he took what Abby said to heart--and she was right. Instead of bitching about all the superficial (in his opinion) things TCF gave money to, put it towards something he deemed worthwhile. I know I certainly would if I had those kinds of funds.

Edited July 3, 2018 by Camille