All Episodes Talk: What's Up Doc?

[Cloud9Shopper]

I always liked Mark and Elizabeth together in a “they’re so cute and dorky in love” way. But they just didn’t get enough time to be happy together. I mean they had Ella in the midst of Mark being in remission (I think he was when she was born anyway) and less than a year later, Rachel shows up and Ella ODs and Mark’s cancer comes back, then he’s dead. I will forever love the ice maker proposal though. I know it’s an unpopular opinion LOL but Elizabeth is also my all-time favorite female main cast character.

I think Mark deserved a long sendoff since he was the cornerstone of the show IMO. It wouldn’t have been right if they just rushed him off like they ended up doing to Elizabeth in S11. But I remember back in the day how badly everyone wanted Mark’s storyline to wrap LOL. Such was life without streaming. Now we can skip what we don’t like. 

[Hiyo]

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the snoozefest that was Mark /Elizabeth

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the snoozefest that was Benton/Cleo

It's like there was a competition between Mark/Elizabeth and Peter/Cleo to see who could be the more boring, chemistry-free couple.

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I know it’s an unpopular opinion LOL but Elizabeth is also my all-time favorite female main cast character.

I wasn't aware it was unpopular to like Elizabeth. Like many people at the time, I was sad to see her go, and was glad to see that was happy with her new job and life overall once she returned in S15.

And I'm still head-cannonning that she and Peter went back to her hotel after everyone left the bar and cracked that hotel bed in two.

[Cloud9Shopper]

Watched an episode from early S11 tonight where Neela is having her quarterlife crisis, not long after she left her internship in Michigan where she was there all of five minutes. Am I really supposed to believe that someone who went to med school has no common sense and applies for a job at a fancy clothing store in a tank top and khakis? The whole storyline was borderline stupid, especially when she ended up working at the Jumbo Mart, and did her character no favors. And she looked so lazy just lying around Abby’s apartment. I mean, come on. 

I just finished a lengthy job search, and while I didn’t apply at any cafes or retail stores, I could almost kind of see the coffee shop manager’s point. Someone like Neela would be useless in that kind of job and would quit as soon as she got a better job. I don’t get why she was even hired back at County to begin with. 

It was nice to see Anupam Kher playing her dad in the previouslies, though. Miss seeing him on New Amsterdam.

Luckily for the nonsense that was a lot of the later years, I’ve been able to catch Time of Death and Middle of Nowhere lately. I forgot how poignant Time of Death was, especially since Ray Liotta is now gone. The flashbacks were some of the best parts of the episode. Middle of Nowhere, I didn’t like at first but it’s grown on me as an out-of-ER episode, as I still skip most of them. 

[Notabug]

9 hours ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

Watched an episode from early S11 tonight where Neela is having her quarterlife crisis, not long after she left her internship in Michigan where she was there all of five minutes. Am I really supposed to believe that someone who went to med school has no common sense and applies for a job at a fancy clothing store in a tank top and khakis? The whole storyline was borderline stupid, especially when she ended up working at the Jumbo Mart, and did her character no favors. And she looked so lazy just lying around Abby’s apartment. I mean, come on. 

I just finished a lengthy job search, and while I didn’t apply at any cafes or retail stores, I could almost kind of see the coffee shop manager’s point. Someone like Neela would be useless in that kind of job and would quit as soon as she got a better job. I don’t get why she was even hired back at County to begin with. 

It was nice to see Anupam Kher playing her dad in the previouslies, though. Miss seeing him on New Amsterdam.

Luckily for the nonsense that was a lot of the later years, I’ve been able to catch Time of Death and Middle of Nowhere lately. I forgot how poignant Time of Death was, especially since Ray Liotta is now gone. The flashbacks were some of the best parts of the episode. Middle of Nowhere, I didn’t like at first but it’s grown on me as an out-of-ER episode, as I still skip most of them. 

Amongst other things, Neela has a degree from Yale (I think) as well as an MD.  Why wouldn't she explore job opportunities with pharmaceutical companies or in research labs?  She's got an Ivy League degree, probably in a science, that ain't nothing.  Why would she take an entry level minimum wage job when she needs to support herself?

I stopped watching New Amsterdam at the start of the second season because I just couldn't take it anymore; the main character, cute though he is, was such an arrogant know it all who really had no idea how modern medicine or hospitals work.  I've worked with some egotistical chiefs of staff, but he was beyond and the audience was supposed to think he was the bees' knees, sort of like the deification of Abby on ER. What happened to Anupam Kher's character?  He was one of the few that I liked which means they probably killed him off.

Edited July 27, 2022 by Notabug

[Cloud9Shopper]

2 minutes ago, Notabug said:

I stopped watching New Amsterdam at the start of the second season because I just couldn't take it anymore; the main character, cute though he is, was such an arrogant know it all who really had no idea how modern medicine or hospitals work.  I've worked with some egotistical chiefs of staff, but he was beyond and the audience was supposed to think he was the bees' knees, sort of like the deification of Abby on ER. What happened to Anupam Kher's character?  He was one of the few that I liked which means they probably killed him off.

In real life, Anupam Kher asked to leave because his wife was sick with cancer. In the show, they said he died from COVID. 

The only thing I’ll say about Max (which sucks because Ryan Eggold is a good actor) is that at least unlike Abby his personal life was way less of a trainwreck (although not without its own drama) and he wasn’t nearly killing others because working and caring for a child (when we saw her) was just too much for him.

Agree that New Amsterdam is terrible, though. They’re going into their final season and the actress who played Max’s girlfriend abruptly announced last week that she wasn’t coming back for the final season. The writers ruined that relationship anyway. NA did the addict doctor storyline too, I might add, but at least they showed another doctor reporting her impairment to Max, unlike at County where everyone just threw up their hands and shrugged when Abby worked while drinking. 
 

[Notabug]

2 minutes ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

In real life, Anupam Kher asked to leave because his wife was sick with cancer. In the show, they said he died from COVID. 

The only thing I’ll say about Max (which sucks because Ryan Eggold is a good actor) is that at least unlike Abby his personal life was way less of a trainwreck (although not without its own drama) and he wasn’t nearly killing others because working and caring for a child (when we saw her) was just too much for him.

Agree that New Amsterdam is terrible, though. They’re going into their final season and the actress who played Max’s girlfriend abruptly announced last week that she wasn’t coming back for the final season. The writers ruined that relationship anyway. NA did the addict doctor storyline too, I might add, but at least they showed another doctor reporting her impairment to Max, unlike at County where everyone just threw up their hands and shrugged when Abby worked while drinking. 
 

I presume Max' girlfriend was that really pretty oncologist with the braids.  They had some great chemistry together, but not enough for me to ignore the rest of it.  The actress who played Max' wife in the first season was awful, though I was surprised that TPTB realized it so quickly and killed her off.  Most showrunners are so in love with their creations that they cannot see when stuff isn't working.  The ER bosses' infatuation with Abby being a prime example.  Max' character also managed single parenthood much better than Abby, which, considering his wife died when the baby was born, was far more traumatic than anything Abby faced.  He did have the kid in a baby carrier with him on rounds and such which was ridiculous, not to mention unsafe for her; but he didn't spend all kinds of time whining and moaning about how hard it all was and resort to blackout drinking to handle the pain; so he was automatically winning the parenting sweepstakes against Abs.

[Cloud9Shopper]

1 hour ago, Notabug said:

I presume Max' girlfriend was that really pretty oncologist with the braids.  They had some great chemistry together, but not enough for me to ignore the rest of it.  The actress who played Max' wife in the first season was awful, though I was surprised that TPTB realized it so quickly and killed her off.  Most showrunners are so in love with their creations that they cannot see when stuff isn't working. 

Yes that was her! Freema Agyeman is the actress. She was once in Doctor Who and left NA because she got a show on Sky TV (British network). The last season of NA ended with her not showing up for her wedding to Max for some unknown reason. She was excited to get married and was leaving London, then at the end of the episode she called Max crying saying “I can’t” and the episode cut with Max saying she wasn’t coming. It was so ridiculous to build the couple up at the end of S3 only to totally ruin them in S4. In fact, NA in general went so off the rails I was wondering if the writers who contributed to the awfulness of post-Mark ER had been hired for New Amsterdam. 

I know Max’s first wife the actress was pregnant IRL and quickly went on to another gig. They really had no chemistry and I feel like they would’ve divorced anyway had she lived. 

[WendyCR72]

9 hours ago, Notabug said:

Amongst other things, Neela has a degree from Yale (I think) as well as an MD.  Why wouldn't she explore job opportunities with pharmaceutical companies or in research labs? 

This.

Nothing wrong with working at a convenience store, but for Neela, it seemed ridiculous given her background. She should have and could have explored pharmaceutical options. As the plot was, it was a total waste of time.

And I'm extra salty about it because we lost Doc Magoo's for that stupid plot.

[Cloud9Shopper]

18 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

This.

Nothing wrong with working at a convenience store, but for Neela, it seemed ridiculous given her background. She should have and could have explored pharmaceutical options. As the plot was, it was a total waste of time.

And I'm extra salty about it because we lost Doc Magoo's for that stupid plot.

Can we count the loss of Doc Magoo’s as a reason for ER’s descent into a has-been show? 😅

Although I did kind of crack up when Neela said cupcakes were on sale for the 4th of July and Ray (not that I ever cared about him one way or the other) went “oh sweet!” 

[PepSinger]

The way they treated Doc Magoo’s was just like how they treated Romano. It wasn’t enough that they were robbed and had staff and customers murdered. Noo. They came back to burn the entire place to the ground. It was overkill and unnecessary.

[Cheyanne11]

Season 8 is showing on Pop now and I've got the episode on when Jing-Mae filed the complaint against Kerri and got her job back.  I always felt like the show wanted us to side with Jing-Mae, but honestly, she was such a snot with Kerri after she got reinstated.  Kerri got short-changed so much, in that she wasn't the 'bad guy' the staff treated her as. 

[Cloud9Shopper]

26 minutes ago, Cheyanne11 said:

Season 8 is showing on Pop now and I've got the episode on when Jing-Mae filed the complaint against Kerri and got her job back.  I always felt like the show wanted us to side with Jing-Mae, but honestly, she was such a snot with Kerri after she got reinstated.  Kerri got short-changed so much, in that she wasn't the 'bad guy' the staff treated her as. 

Agreed. Chen was just as responsible for not reviewing the case, and then she had the audacity to come back and demand she becomes an attending and only work day shifts. I was always indifferent to her anyway because she kept leaving without notice and coming back so many times. She should’ve never been allowed back at County after the central line failure in med school, and Romano should have told her to stay gone when she quit without notice in S8.

About the only time I was sympathetic to her was her adoption storyline.  

[ch1]

I felt bad for Malucci and Chen but the way they acted afterwards was ridiculous.  I mean they were responsible for killing a guy and you have Malucci banging someone in an ambulance (and then saying the most disgusting insult to Kerry) and you have Chen acting like the victim of evil Kerry.  Yes Kerry was way wrong to try to CYA herself but she wasn’t wrong when she told them “you had the information, you didn’t bother to look at it.”

[Bastet]

On 8/3/2022 at 10:54 AM, Cheyanne11 said:

I always felt like the show wanted us to side with Jing-Mae, but honestly, she was such a snot with Kerri after she got reinstated. 

I wasn't on her side, either, because she acted like she did nothing wrong in the first place, as if Kerry's actions after the fact somehow erased what Jing-Mei had done.  She was a right little shit in that storyline, so I was not buying what the show was selling.

Jeanie bugged me when it came to Kerry, too.  Kerry was very supportive of and helpful to her, but Jeanie acted like Kerry and Anspaugh had acted equally in firing her.  No, Anspaugh wanted to get rid of her for being HIV+, so told Kerry she had to make a staff cut and set the criteria for selecting the position for elimination so that it could only be Jeanie.  Kerry warned him, but her hands were tied.  Good for Jeanie suing, obviously, and, damn right, put Kerry's name in the filing, but don't personally treat her like she engineered the damn thing.  And then when Jeanie decided she didn't feel like working anymore, she just stopped coming in rather than giving Kerry any sort of proper notice.  Yet Kerry still acted with respect, telling her to come in and explain herself rather than firing her ass.

Edited August 4, 2022 by Bastet

[Cloud9Shopper]

1 hour ago, Bastet said:

 And then when Jeanie decided she didn't feel like working anymore, she just stopped coming in rather than giving Kerry any sort of proper notice.  Yet Kerry still acted with respect, telling her to come in and explain herself rather then firing her ass.

Now that I’m older and have been working long enough, it’s almost amusing how many of the staff up and left without proper notice. Chen quit three times (although once when she was a student so maybe that doesn’t count) at the drop of a hat. Carol just ran out without talking to anyone but Mark and Luka. Jeanie as you already pointed out. Abby got the attending job and left after one shift. Doug quit pretty abruptly but he was probably going to be fired anyway. 

Actually now that I write all this it doesn’t seem like anyone (except the staff members who got killed on the job or Mark) left professionally. They all just walked off one day or got fired. Except Susan, who said she was working with Morgenstern in S3 to have her residency transferred and then left to take a tenure job on her second go. She always professional, though, so I like to think she resigned properly offscreen. 

Edited August 3, 2022 by Cloud9Shopper

[Hiyo]

At least Kerry and Jeannie ended on a positive note, since she at least told her goodbye when she finally left for good (even though it was a "I'm leaving right now" goodbye).

That said, I don't think they kept in touch, since when Jeannie returned in season 14, wasn't she unaware that Kerry had moved to Miami by that point?

[Kel Varnsen]

On 7/27/2022 at 7:03 PM, WendyCR72 said:

This.

Nothing wrong with working at a convenience store, but for Neela, it seemed ridiculous given her background. She should have and could have explored pharmaceutical options. As the plot was, it was a total waste of time.

And I'm extra salty about it because we lost Doc Magoo's for that stupid plot.

The worst part of that stupid storyline was it was never really resolved. Neela bailed on medicine because she realized it wasn't for her. But she didn't go back to county because she discovered a love for doctoring, she went back because their was a convenient opening, and she realized she hated working at a convenience store more. And after that I don't think she ever mentioned not liking being a doctor ever again.

[Notabug]

39 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

The worst part of that stupid storyline was it was never really resolved. Neela bailed on medicine because she realized it wasn't for her. But she didn't go back to county because she discovered a love for doctoring, she went back because their was a convenient opening, and she realized she hated working at a convenience store more. And after that I don't think she ever mentioned not liking being a doctor ever again.

There was also no explanation as to why she felt General Surgery was a good specialty for her either.  Carter, even as a med student, wanted to be a surgeon.  Even though it turned out not to be a good fit for him; we clearly saw his motives for wanting it.  

I get Neela not wanting to clerk in a convenience store, but going back to County and doing her internship was far from her only option.

Also, even in the time ER was on the air, women were not treated kindly in general surgery residencies and someone as indecisive and wimpy as Neela would've been drummed out of the residency by her fellow residents tout de suite.

Edited August 4, 2022 by Notabug

[Cloud9Shopper]

20 minutes ago, Notabug said:

Also, even in the time ER was on the air, women were not treated kindly in general surgery residencies and someone as indecisive and wimpy as Neela would've been drummed out of the residency by her fellow residents tout de suite.

There was one episode of late S14 where Neela was having a meltdown of some sorts over a patient’s death and her intern quitting, and Dubenko told her to get it together and start acting like a surgeon. She was supposed to be fairly far along in her residency at that point (I have no idea how long a surgical residency actually is but I want to say she was a second or third year) and she was still acting like a blubbering fool. I couldn’t believe she got hired anywhere else and seems to have been made faculty with that kind of attitude and weakness. 

It made me miss the early days of the series when there were actual strong female characters (both in the main and supporting casts) working in the hospital. By that point in the series the prominent female characters were all hot messes or otherwise useless. And if they were good characters (like the background nurses) their role had long been scaled back on. 

Edited August 4, 2022 by Cloud9Shopper

[Notabug]

General surgery residencies are typically 5 years long and any second or third year who had a meltdown over patients or interns would be ridiculed relentlessly.

I guess with Benton and Corday leaving the show, they felt they needed another main cast member to go over to the dark side and even TPTB thought it would be too over the top for Abby to do a double residency and be the best surgical resident ever in addition to her clear superiority in the ER.

They knew that LaSalle was leaving well in advance, same with Kingston.  They had plenty of time to lay the groundwork for a believable transition for Neela or another main cast character to enter surgery; but, instead, we got Abby mistreating her family and Romano being attacked by rogue helicopters.

[geekgirl921]

Just watched Mark's last episode in Hawaii. It gets me everytime!

[Cloud9Shopper]

Watched an S10 episode last night where Sam rips Romano’s prosthetic arm off and Susan keeps it from him for the day. (It was the one right before helicopter 2.0.) And I know that I was supposed to see it as punishment for Romano being so crappy and sexist, but I couldn’t find it funny or appropriate. I thought if anything, Susan was the one who came out of it looking bad to withhold something Romano needs to do his (albeit limited) job and function, no matter how much of an asshole he was being. She should’ve been disciplined for refusing to give it back to him and hiding it. 

I wonder why they even brought her back to begin with. By this point she was in her ridiculous, out-of-character relationship with Chuck and she had already been involved in the Secrets and Lies fiasco. It’s so disappointing to see her going from one of the true professionals of the show in her S1-3 stint to what she became when she came back, engaging in childish antics and getting into a spur-of-the-moment marriage. 

I do, however, think Romano has some great one-liners in S9 and S10:

”Did somebody indeed verify that they have medical schools in Croatia?”

”I have six medical students that I’m avoiding like the plague.”

“You waited three-and-a-half hours…for Abby?”

I’m almost done with my scattered rewatch (been picking random episodes as background noise) since I only have two weeks left of school. And then I need a break for a while. Once Mark is gone this no longer feels fun. 

[Notabug]

`Susan was completely ruined when she returned to ER, I try not to think about it.  She was such a great fun-loving, smart, loyal friend to all in the early days.

And, yes, taking a prosthetic away from an amputee is inappropriate.  Then again, Susan did inappropriate stuff all the time after they brought her back.  Snickering at Carter's story of childhood sexual assault?  Check.  Getting drunk in Vegas and marrying some guy she literally just me? Check.

Last Friday, I was home and managed to catch the beginning of the trainwreck that was Carby.  One episode had Abby skinny dipping in Lake Michigan and inviting Carter to join her.  Next episode, they were supposedly making out in the shower.  There was absolutely no chemistry, no spark, no sexiness in any of it.  One of the worst TV 'romances' ever.

Edited August 10, 2022 by Notabug

[andidante]

I honestly think they should have ended the show when Mark died. 

[Danny Franks]

On 6/4/2022 at 2:40 AM, WendyCR72 said:

I'm one of the few that like Carter and Susan, so that's a nice image. I did wonder if Susan's comment at the bar of dating younger men was meant to leave interpretations open and such.

But whether Susan or someone else, as I said, wasting YEARS on miserable Kem seemed like another tragedy for Carter.

I still think Carter and Susan in season one was a really fun tease. Perhaps because Susan is practically dream woman material for me, in those first three seasons, but I completely understand why Carter was crushing on her so hard. And while she didn't reciprocate his crush, she clearly found him attractive and engaging.

I love that scene of them on the roof together, where Carter shares his champagne with her and teases her with the notion that he likes Chloe. I love the scene where they almost kiss before Susan sees sense. I love the scene where she has a hard talk to him about losing empathy for patients.

Of all the 'inappropriate relationships between doctors and their subordinates' that ER pushed, this is the only one I'd have enjoyed watching. Still, their sibling-like friendship was also fun to watch.

But when Susan came back, it just didn't work. The chemistry they had was gone and the writers didn't know how to write Susan. Plus, they were clearly only using it as an obstacle for Carter/Abby.

On 6/26/2022 at 12:27 PM, Cloud9Shopper said:

That was the second-biggest jump the shark moment for me personally (the first being Romano having the helicopter fall on him in S10). It showcased Abby’s selfishness and narcissism at one of its lowest points. Carter had gone through a lot before Gamma’s death and didn‘t have  much family himself. It’s sad she couldn’t stay home and deal with her brother and instead just had to deny Carter a peaceful funeral and goodbye to his grandmother. I loved when he told her to just leave at the end of that fiasco and refused to accept her half-assed apology. 

Abby's brother falling into Gamma's grave was honestly the moment when I realised this show was done. It was so broad, so stupid and so needlessly offensive to Carter and the one truly important familial relationship he had. It made the whole thing about Abby, which was becoming the norm for the show.

On 7/24/2022 at 10:28 PM, Cloud9Shopper said:

I always liked Mark and Elizabeth together in a “they’re so cute and dorky in love” way. But they just didn’t get enough time to be happy together. I mean they had Ella in the midst of Mark being in remission (I think he was when she was born anyway) and less than a year later, Rachel shows up and Ella ODs and Mark’s cancer comes back, then he’s dead. I will forever love the ice maker proposal though. I know it’s an unpopular opinion LOL but Elizabeth is also my all-time favorite female main cast character.

They were fine until the writers decided the best use of Alex Kingston was to have her ranting and raving about how crappy Mark was and how selfish Rachel was, instead of having her be the same calm, collected and overall sensible woman she'd been previously.

Yes, having a baby is obviously very difficult and exhausting and can make people act in extreme ways. So don't write in a baby when you don't need one. Just let them be a normal, healthy couple. They made me hate Alex Kingston, and I've never really gotten over that dislike.

11 hours ago, Notabug said:

Last Friday, I was home and managed to catch the beginning of the trainwreck that was Carby.  One episode had Abby skinny dipping in Lake Michigan and inviting Carter to join her.  Next episode, they were supposedly making out in the shower.  There was absolutely no chemistry, no spark, no sexiness in any of it.  One of the worst TV 'romances' ever.

The writers seemed to think they were writing one of television's grandest romances, but it was a damp squib. The build up was good in parts, with some decent tension and mutual attraction between them. But by the time they got together they were already toxic, and things just got worse from there.

Carter had some dud romance storylines, he really did. The only decent ones were Harper and Anna (which never even got started). But I've said before that the writers accidentally gave him a far more complex psychology than they probably meant to, with his attraction to older women forming early then being reinforced with each successive relationship, before we met his cold, closed off mother who never gave him the love he so clearly needed.

[Cloud9Shopper]

I think they wrote in the baby because of Alex Kingston’s real-life pregnancy (although they could’ve gone the route of hiding it too like they did for Glenne Headley/Abby Keaton and later, Neela/Parminder Nagra), although I’m not sure what storyline they could have made up to get Elizabeth off the show for a while for maternity leave. 

8 hours ago, andidante said:

I honestly think they should have ended the show when Mark died. 

For me, it’s when Carter leaves at the end of S11. His last episode has a lot of elements of a series finale. If they wanted to bring back the old cast, make S15 S12 and be done with it. Although truthfully, the more I think about it, the more I agree that Mark’s death is also a good ending point. 

Carter deserved better in the relationship department than what he eventually got with Kem. (And was the stillbirth really necessary? I also liked him and Anna together. It’s too bad the actress abruptly decided to leave the show. 

Abby seems lighter and happier when she’s a nurse and even seemed more relaxed when she was with Carter at the fundraiser in S7. To be honest I didn’t think either relationship was that good for her. I think now Luka is low-key controlling and manipulative towards her (the “I’ll love you even if you have an abortion” thing…I wouldn’t be surprised if she kept the baby because Luka wanted her to since she was crying and stressed over not wanting it. He’d probably dump her eventually and she knew it, so she kept the baby so she’d have the relationship. The surprise wedding, the “let’s go somewhere no one knows us” after she gets the attending job and she instantly agrees…no discussion, no insistence that she wanted the job she supposedly worked so hard for…she lets him make all the decisions like she’s his puppy dog and not an adult woman who puts her foot down and expressed herself). I never got why that relationship is so celebrated and seen as something for the other characters to strive for. 

Not to mention it seems like a bad idea for someone less than a year sober to move across multiple states, leave her sponsor and her familiar AA meeting (if she was even going to them and still working with her sponsor at the end of S14), and take a new job. That’s a lot of life change for those of us without addictions and Abby risks everything by just letting Luka upend her whole life even though we’re supposed to believe she takes her sobriety seriously and is super committed to recovery. 

Edited August 11, 2022 by Cloud9Shopper

[Notabug]

2 hours ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

Carter deserved better in the relationship department than what he eventually got with Kem. (And was the stillbirth really necessary? I also liked him and Anna together. It’s too bad the actress abruptly decided to leave the show. 

As long as the show wanted to bring NW back as a main cast character, they should never have put him in a relationship with an actress who was not also going to be able to be main cast.  I believe Thandiwe Newton had other commitments which made it impossible for her to join the show permanently which should've caused TPTB to either end the relationship or cast another actress in the role.  NW was already making a lot of guest appearances each season and was obviously open to appearing on the show for huge arcs to tell Carter's story.  It was a dumb idea to pair him with an actress who couldn't do the same and it made the whole relationship painful and pointless.  And, other than giving Carter a focus for his medical philanthropy, there was no reason to give them a stillbirth.  TN wasn't around enough to ever explore their individual and collective grief.  Carter could've named the center after Gamma or his brother Bobby and the audience would've been fine with it.

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she lets him make all the decisions like she’s his puppy dog and not an adult woman who puts her foot down and expressed herself). 

It was also completely out of character for both of them.  Abby had terminated a pregnancy with her actual husband in the past, no reason she should have any qualms about ending another unplanned pregnancy.  In addition, during their first go-round, Abby was in charge of  virtually everything, Luka followed her around and put up with her flirtation with Carter and her ridiculous behavior with her family and everything else with barely a word until they broke up. By the time Abby got pregnant, it had been a decade or more since Luka lost his family; if he was really so intent on having more children, why wasn't he married with several by then?  A good looking doctor making a good income doesn't have trouble finding candidates for marriage if he wants that.  

As far as moving away, Abby had totally drifted into her entire medical career at that point, I didn't think it was out of character at all that she just up and moved with Luka.  She couldn't pay for med school, so she quit and went back to nursing.  She's working as a nurse on OB and Kerry orders her to work ER instead.  OK, no argument.  Kerry appoints her nurse manager in the ER even though she hadn't ever applied and wasn't even qualified anyway and Abby just nods and goes to work.  Everyone thinks she's the bees knees as a med student and is begging her to join their specialty. she kinda stumbles into ER not so much because she loves it but because it seems the path of least resistance.  She takes the attending job at County even after totally embarrassing herself by working drunk and screwing her boss (more than one boss, in fact).  Then, she quits after a single shift and walks out forever.  Abby was not at all a forceful or decisive person, IMO, she kinda drifted into and out of her own life, never having a strong opinion on anything except her desire to lock her mother and brother up and throw away the key.

[Dr.OO7]

I rewatched "Midnight" yesterday and it was as agonizing as ever. And as apparently the only person on this thread who liked Carter and Kem, it hurts even more that this was basically the moment their relationship ended.

My favorite (?) moment had to be when Carter came staggering out of the delivery room and his father simply said his name and held his arms out to him and Carter just collapsed in tears.

As a footnote, wasn't it nice of Kerry to thank Abby for being there for her after Sandy's death and during the custody battle for her son by trying to discourage Abby from applying to match at County because she didn't want to get screwed over in case Abby failed her boards again? Stay classy, Kerry. Jeez, she could be such a wench. I'm so glad Abby called her out on it and left her spluttering in the realization of what a crappy thing she was trying to do.

[Cloud9Shopper]

22 minutes ago, Dr.OO7 said:

I rewatched "Midnight" yesterday and it was as agonizing as ever. And as apparently the only person on this thread who liked Carter and Kem, it hurts even more that this was basically the moment their relationship ended.

My favorite (?) moment had to be when Carter came staggering out of the delivery room and his father simply said his name and held his arms out to him and Carter just collapsed in tears.

As a footnote, wasn't it nice of Kerry to thank Abby for being there for her after Sandy's death and during the custody battle for her son by trying to discourage Abby from applying to match at County because she didn't want to get screwed over in case Abby failed her boards again? Stay classy, Kerry. Jeez, she could be such a wench. I'm so glad Abby called her out on it and left her spluttering in the realization of what a crappy thing she was trying to do.

I’m one of the many who’s not a fan of Carter and Kem, but I don’t think the stillbirth plot was necessary. It felt like just another way to give Carter trauma, and I don’t hate Kem so much that I don’t think they should’ve been able to be a family. They just bore me as a couple like on a Peter/Cleo level. 

Can someone explain to me why Kerry telling Abby not to apply for match at County was “screwing her over?” As I don’t work in the medical field and have seen this comment before I don’t understand what’s wrong with what Kerry said. @Notabug or anyone else familiar, what’s the deal? Is it just because Kerry told Abby not to apply to her first choice? Or is it something to do with boards? 

[Dr.OO7]

55 minutes ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

Can someone explain to me why Kerry telling Abby not to apply for match at County was “screwing her over?” As I don’t work in the medical field and have seen this comment before I don’t understand what’s wrong with what Kerry said. @Notabug or anyone else familiar, what’s the deal? Is it just because Kerry told Abby not to apply to her first choice? Or is it something to do with boards? 

If Abby failed her boards again, she couldn't have started her residency, which means County would have been short a resident for that particular program and it *might* have been difficult for them to find someone else to fill the spot. So if Abby chose another hospital as her first choice for a residency program, then that's the program/hospital that would have been screwed.

It was selfish of Kerry to ask that of her, not to mention incredibly underhanded and improper. As well as somewhat cruel. How about offering the woman some words of encouragement on retaking the exam instead of essentially demonstrating that you have no faith in her ability to pass?

[Notabug]

48 minutes ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

Can someone explain to me why Kerry telling Abby not to apply for match at County was “screwing her over?” As I don’t work in the medical field and have seen this comment before I don’t understand what’s wrong with what Kerry said. @Notabug or anyone else familiar, what’s the deal? Is it just because Kerry told Abby not to apply to her first choice? Or is it something to do with boards? 

It wasn't so much screwing Abby over as protecting Kerry's and County's a**.  In order to officially graduate medical school and be eligible to start a residency, a med student has to pass the board exam.  Students aren't able to take the exam until just a few months before graduation and it is only offered a few times a year.  So, in Abby's case, since she failed the exam on her first try before graduation, she would have to take the exam again and pass it before she could start any residency, even if she had matched successfully.  

That means Abby had to wait for the next exam several months later. Meanwhile, the traditional start date for interns, July 1, was fast approaching.  If Abby failed the second attempt, she would not be able to start July 1 and County would have to make do without her until she either took  the test again or dropped out of the residency so they could replace her.  That could mean months and months of being shorthanded.  Big city teaching hospitals need cheap labor in the form of residents and interns in order to survive.  Residencies are limited by the specialty boards to only a certain number of residents in any given year.  So, Kerry didn't want the ongoing aggravation and hassle of waiting for Abby to pass her boards so she could start.  The residency match is skewed in the applicant's favor meaning that Abby interviewed at however many residency programs she wanted and then submitted a list of her preferences from first to last to the match. Meanwhile, all the residencies do the same with the people they've interviewed.  In the end, it is all fed into a computer.  Presumably County had already submitted their list with Abby, the world's best student, right there at the top.  So, Kerry was hoping that Abby didn't list them first because her inability to pass boards would be County's problem

When I was Chief Resident many years ago, one of our incoming interns didn't pass the boards prior to graduating and had to take them again.  He couldn't start until he passed; so we had to wait for the exam to be offered again and then wait for his scores to arrive.  He started 4 months late and it was a PITA for the hospital and for his fellow residents.

**** Note: ER was filmed in the 90's/early 2000's and I went to med school and did my residency in the '80's.  With computer technology and instant grading, things are very different today and the timelines might not be the same.

[Notabug]

10 minutes ago, Dr.OO7 said:

If Abby failed her boards again, she couldn't have started her residency, which means County would have been short a resident for that particular program and it *might* have been difficult for them to find someone else to fill the spot.

They also would have to get Abby to turn down her match at County before they could even attempt to find anyone else.  The match has rules and, if someone matches, the program is obligated to take them.  The contract is such that giving someone a few extra months because of board exams or other issues is a given.  At some point, Abby would have to be ready to go or she'd be dropped, but not right out of the gate.  

Also, by the time Abby would re-take the boards and either pass or fail, the match would be long over and anyone who didn't match would already have jobs and virtually the only people still looking for a match would be people who hadn't been able to catch on anywhere else; the bottom of the barrel.  Another good reason why residency programs are willing to wait for someone up to a point.

And, yes, what Kerry said to Abby was both unethical and improper.  In real life, a program director could be fired for attempting to tamper with the match in that way. 

Edited August 17, 2022 by Notabug

[Cloud9Shopper]

Thanks for the explanations everyone. The closest frame of reference I have is law school and the bar exam, since I work in the legal field, and attorneys get hired out of law school (but without all the match ranking stuff, though summer associate jobs—which can lead to offers—are crazy competitive) but can’t practice until they pass the bar. 

I initially thought of Morris not passing a board exam of some sort in S14 and then I remembered that was to be board certified in ER medicine, so obviously different.

On another note, my last episode of my scattered rewatch was Baby Shower from S2 and I love it. It’s one of my favorite underrated episodes. All the babies being born and the staff working so well together, and there was drama and intensity without the later season nonsense of exploding helicopters and shootouts (AKA not too over the top). And my vindictive side giggled a little when Coburn elbowed Mark out of the way in a delivery. Can’t forget the beet soup either! 

After seeing some especially brutal S11 episodes recently, though (loved Time of Death but hated the one where Neela and Gallant voiced over letters to each other and the one where Susan didn’t get tenure), I’m glad to be taking a break for a while. 

[Dr.OO7]

4 hours ago, Notabug said:

And, yes, what Kerry said to Abby was both unethical and improper.  In real life, a program director could be fired for attempting to tamper with the match in that way

I loved how after Kerry "hypothetically" suggested Abby change her program ranking, Abby "hypothetically" threatened to report her.

I never understood how Kerry could be so stringent about people abiding by policy, yet never have any problem violating policy herself, especially if it was to help herself.

[Danny Franks]

I watched Another Perfect Day from season one, and I love that episode.

Everyone has a crappy day - Benton gets pretty openly snubbed for the fellowship he's applying for, Mark's hot date night with Jen is scuppered when she has to go back to Milwaukee, Doug and Carol kiss then Carol decides to move in with Tag and Doug is crushed.

Of course, it's Susan's birthday so you know she has a terrible day - She gets a glimpse into Div's ongoing breakdown when he explodes at Malik. Then Chloe turns up, drunk and high and causes a huge scene that culminates in her putting her hand through the admit desk window.

But completely oblivious to all of this is Carter, who has his best day - he does his first spinal tap and does it perfectly, Mark gives him the bottle of champagne he bought for his evening with Jen and then he gets to drink it on the roof with the woman he's already clearly crushing on, Susan.

@Cloud9Shopper, I meant to say, thanks for the podcast recommendation, it's a lot of fun listening to recaps of these episodes. I already appreciate the hosts thinking Doug is an ass but I don't know how ready I am for them being big fans of Mark/Elizabeth.

[Cloud9Shopper]

5 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

@Cloud9Shopper, I meant to say, thanks for the podcast recommendation, it's a lot of fun listening to recaps of these episodes. I already appreciate the hosts thinking Doug is an ass but I don't know how ready I am for them being big fans of Mark/Elizabeth.

Happy to help! Unfortunately (for when you get there), they’re also big fans of Abby and Abby/Luka. 🙄 But the recaps are fun, and I’ll at least keep listening until Carter leaves in S11. 

[PepSinger]

On 8/10/2022 at 10:30 AM, Cloud9Shopper said:

I do, however, think Romano has some great one-liners in S9 and S10:

”Did somebody indeed verify that they have medical schools in Croatia?”

”I have six medical students that I’m avoiding like the plague.”

“You waited three-and-a-half hours…for Abby?”

Yeah, he was an asshole during those two seasons, but those lines cracked me up, especially the Abby one.

[CrazyInAlabama]

Romano did some nice things too.  When Lizzy was pregnant and he sent her pizza and ice cream, when he got her ring out of the drain.    How upset he was losing Lucy.    

[Bastet]

Romano was a horrible person on the whole, but they organically doled out the bits of humanity in him - his relationship with his mom, his love for his dog, his affection for Elizabeth (he never crossed the line with his crush, at least as far as I remember; he was respectful of her different feelings for him), his respect for Lucy during the heart transplant storyline and his resulting reaction when she died. 

Contrast that with the detestable Frank, where we never saw one sliver of humanity, but then they foisted the heart attack episode on us, asking us to accept he not only was a completely different person with his wife and - of course - special needs child, but spoke highly at home of the ER staff he consistently disparaged and disrespected.  The only good moment that fuckwit ever had was when Pratt was dying; that was genuine respect and thus touching.

It doesn't work when you don't lay any groundwork but then try to dump a sympathetic episode on the audience.  Like only showing Malucci as a disrespectful blowhard, but then in his final episode giving him a heroic save and a speech about his previously-unmentioned kid in an attempt to make us feel sympathy for the jackass finally getting the firing he richly deserved.  Lazy writing.

[CrazyInAlabama]

It seemed to me that the continuity book they have for the various characters on the show, so people are either good guys, or not so good, didn't exist for this show.      Usually with TV shows they have a concise document says the biography of the character, highlights of what they have done on the show, and that way you don't have the random character changes that ER had.    Continuity books are a way to have character's storyline be consistent, and not have them change all of the time, and this show doesn't seem to have done that. 

[Hiyo]

I think the writers were better at it in the earlier seasons.

[Dr.OO7]

8 hours ago, Hiyo said:

I think the writers were better at it in the earlier seasons.

And even then they made mistakes, like the way Doug's son was never mentioned again after Season 1, even during storylines when it would have made sense --his abusive father reappearing and later dying, he and Carol deciding to have a baby, etc.

[Bastet]

2 minutes ago, Dr.OO7 said:

And even then they made mistakes, like the way Doug's son was never mentioned again after Season 1, even during storylines when it would have made sense --his abusive father reappearing and later dying, he and Carol deciding to have a baby, etc.

Yeah, that would have been fine if his son had been mentioned in the pilot but never again; things change from pilot to series all the time, so whenever there's a conflict, I just accept the series version as canon and don't care about the discrepancy.  But that kid was mentioned three times -- having a son he'd never met was an example of his entire season one arc, that he had been this irresponsible screw-up for so long, people didn't take him seriously when he was trying to be a better person and doctor.

And it wouldn't need to keep being mentioned after that, but, like you said, there were situations in which it naturally would have.  When he and Carol started talking about having a kid, the fact he'd already created one he took no responsibility for should have come up.  Him blowing up about his dad having failed him lends itself to a reminder he turned around and failed his own son.

I honestly think the writers forgot about it by the time those storylines were crafted rather than opted not to remind us.  They mentioned the kid three times in season one, yes, but within the span of just two episodes -- it's like they hammered that home in establishing what a playboy he'd been, and then, point made, forgot all about it as time went on.

[Danny Franks]

Doug is such an arsehole in season one anyway. I just watched the episode where he turns up to Carol's engagement party to tell her he loves her. It's the most selfish, stupid thing he's ever done because there's just no conceivable way that she would ever welcome that.

In season one I can see that the show wants me to sympathise with Doug, but at least they didn't lean too far into his woobified, 'woolly hat and morose face in the Chicago snow' act and expect viewers to feel sorry for him when he's clearly in the wrong. They definitely let us see what a selfish dick he is.

Linda Farrell may be a bit of a pain, but she's amazing to Doug (she's also pretty nice to everyone else in the ER, so I don't know why she's often disliked by fans) and he treats her very shabbily in return, just because he wants something he can't have. But I get the feeling this is how Doug treated any woman he dated - always one eye on someone else, always one foot out of the door and resentful that someone has expectations of him.

[Cloud9Shopper]

I was rewatching “April Showers” a little while ago (the one where Mark and Elizabeth get married) and I honestly couldn’t believe how bad the episode was IMO. At the time, I was a big Mark and Elizabeth shipper (still am) and I remember being really excited for the wedding and then being sad that we got like 30 seconds of it. And what was really happening the rest of the episode that was so important that we couldn’t see the ceremony? It was all filler and oh haha Mark may not get to the wedding on time. I can only assume that Alex Kingston couldn’t film very much because of how pregnant she was, but I would have liked to have seen something nicer especially since we got a whole episode of CrAbby as a bride (never seen someone else so miserable and annoyed on their wedding day) and the other wedding moments on the show (even Carol’s canceled wedding) were cute and memorable.

I feel like the show may have started a slight decline even before Mark died, especially since S8 brought us Secrets and Lies and the Third Watch crossover, with the return of Chloe that nobody asked for. 

[Bastet]

I liked Elizabeth's scenes in that one, but Mark's were boring.

So - completely in line with their personalities, heh.

[Cloud9Shopper]

30 minutes ago, Bastet said:

I liked Elizabeth's scenes in that one, but Mark's were boring.

So - completely in line with their personalities, heh.

I did laugh (I was 15 when this aired, keep in mind), however, when Mark jumped on Benton’s car and Peter was like Mark, man get off my car! It was one of the only saving graces of the episode. 

[CrazyInAlabama]

2 hours ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

I feel like the show may have started a slight decline even before Mark died, especially since S8 brought us Secrets and Lies and the Third Watch crossover, with the return of Chloe that nobody asked for. 

Not only was the Chloe / Third Watch crossover pointless, but it simply ended without resolution.   Chloe and daughter just disappeared, and that was it.   Awful. 

[Notabug]

3 hours ago, Bastet said:

I liked Elizabeth's scenes in that one, but Mark's were boring.

So - completely in line with their personalities, heh.

The main thing I remember about the wedding episode is that Elizabeth looked gorgeous.  I really liked the color of her outfit.  That and she had a nice scene with Romano before Mark showed up.

[txhorns79]

On 8/21/2022 at 1:03 AM, Bastet said:

his affection for Elizabeth (he never crossed the line with his crush, at least as far as I remember; he was respectful of her different feelings for him)

I'm pretty sure he sexually harassed her, and ended his sponsorship of her because he found out she was dating Peter.  Their relationship did improve as time went on (and I think she was probably his only friend by the time he died), but he was fairly horrible to her in the beginning.