All Episodes Talk: What's Up Doc?

[Cloud9Shopper]

I never understood how Neela went through undergrad and medical school AND rotations and then decided she didn’t want to be a doctor, and then she ended up in the Jumbo Mart. I mean wouldn’t you figure it out at some point in rotations or med school that you’re in the wrong place? Also, I always thought Neela was damn lucky another resident dropped out of their placement for her to get a spot and be welcomed back with open arms. Wouldn’t County worry she would flake on them too? I mean she ran off from the other internship within an hour. It’s not like this is some low-stakes call center job where no one cares if you leave after the first day. 

@Rootbeer or any other medical types feel free to correct me if I’m wrong or off base, but I just can’t imagine why a program supposedly as prestigious as County would want someone who bolted from her first internship. 

[Rootbeer]

14 minutes ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

I never understood how Neela went through undergrad and medical school AND rotations and then decided she didn’t want to be a doctor, and then she ended up in the Jumbo Mart. I mean wouldn’t you figure it out at some point in rotations or med school that you’re in the wrong place? Also, I always thought Neela was damn lucky another resident dropped out of their placement for her to get a spot and be welcomed back with open arms. Wouldn’t County worry she would flake on them too? I mean she ran off from the other internship within an hour. It’s not like this is some low-stakes call center job where no one cares if you leave after the first day. 

@Rootbeer or any other medical types feel free to correct me if I’m wrong or off base, but I just can’t imagine why a program supposedly as prestigious as County would want someone who bolted from her first internship. 

They wouldn't.  County seemed to want it both ways.  They kept telling us how elite and special they were, remember Carter worrying about getting the surgical sub I and later the residency?  Then, on the other hand, they have residents like Malucci who went to a Caribbean med school (my residency would reject all applications from foreign grads without even interviewing them, Malucci wouldn't have been able to get his foot in the door).  And, we've got Neela who bounces in and out of residency like its no big deal.

In real life, people who've done the work to get to med school, and especially those who've borrowed to pay the tuition, aren't in any position to chuck it all in the first place.  I went to med school back in the days when it was fairly affordable and I certainly would have thought twice before taking on the payback of those loans without being a practicing physician. 

When I was in medical school, exactly one person in my class of 233 decided to leave medical school completely.  Now, some people took time off here and there for illness or other reasons or needed more time to finish than usual; but, once the school invests in a student, they want them to finish, too.  It is way more time consuming and expensive to start all over again with someone else.  There was a guy in my class who did all the didactics and passed all the exams for the first half of med school which is essentially all classroom based.  We then started clinicals and his first rotation was in OB as was mine, we were assigned to the same community hospital, along with 4 other students.  He started out fine the first week, but, after his first night on call, he told us that he had been thinking about it for a while and now that he'd had a first hand view of what medicine was like; he knew it wasn't for him and he was going to drop out.  We all thought he was just tired and would be back the next morning, but he never returned.  We reached out and he said he knew he didn't want to be a doctor and would not be back.  I don't know if he had loans or how he paid them back. Funny, for the rest of us, starting clinical rotations and finally getting to see real patients sealed the deal for us; I knew I was in the right place from the moment I put on the white coat and walked through the doors of the hospital.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Rootbeer

[Kel Varnsen]

15 hours ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

never understood how Neela went through undergrad and medical school AND rotations and then decided she didn’t want to be a doctor, and then she ended up in the Jumbo Mart.

I bought the first part about her going through all that and realize she didn't want to be a doctor. Because I worked in a job for 12 years that was my first job after university, and thought would be my career. After about 10 years I realized I hated it and wanted something different but stayed there for another two years because of a lot of other factors and pressure. I ended up getting laid off and switched to a different type of work that worked with my background. So it would have been interesting to see Neela explore different careers that she could do with her education, because it is not like everyone who goes to med school is a doctor who sees patients.

[txhorns79]

Quote

They wouldn't.  County seemed to want it both ways.  They kept telling us how elite and special they were, remember Carter worrying about getting the surgical sub I and later the residency?  Then, on the other hand, they have residents like Malucci who went to a Caribbean med school (my residency would reject all applications from foreign grads without even interviewing them, Malucci wouldn't have been able to get his foot in the door). 

Yes, I recall they seemed to sometimes suggest that County was for doctors who burned out, and then other times, it was treated as a very prestigious place to do your residency.  Given all the bonkers stuff that ended up happening there (Jerry setting off a grenade, helicopter limb accidents, helicopter explosions, a tank attacking the place, criminal shoot outs, multiple staff members being attacked at one time or another, etc.), I'd go with the idea it was a bad place to be.        

Also, I just watched the episode with Serena Williams(!) as a guest star.  Neela deserved to be terminated for ignoring directions to not enter a burning building, then to evacuate that building immediately and finally needing to be rescued herself because of her reckless behavior.  She jeopardized countless lives because she arrogantly decided she was better equipped than trained firemen to try and rescue someone.  

[Rootbeer]

13 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I bought the first part about her going through all that and realize she didn't want to be a doctor. Because I worked in a job for 12 years that was my first job after university, and thought would be my career. After about 10 years I realized I hated it and wanted something different but stayed there for another two years because of a lot of other factors and pressure. I ended up getting laid off and switched to a different type of work that worked with my background. So it would have been interesting to see Neela explore different careers that she could do with her education, because it is not like everyone who goes to med school is a doctor who sees patients.

Sure, there are a lot of opportunities in public health or medical administration and having a medical degree would mesh nicely with many of those jobs.  Neela might have to go back and get an MBA or MPH at some point, but she could even do that while working.  Law firms, pharmaceutical companies, insurance companies also have jobs for doctors that don't involve patient care.  There were multiple other options for Neela if she didn't want to be an ER doc.  For that matter, she could switch into a different area of medicine like radiology or pathology if direct patient care wasn't her thing.  Or, if she didn't like the stress and loss of nights, weekends and holidays; she could do something like dermatology which is pretty much 9-5 Monday through Frieday.

[Cloud9Shopper]

I was watching the S15 episode this past week where Ray comes to town to see Neela and she was telling him about Banfield and he said something to the affect of “oh wow, another chief?” The ridiculously bad choices for ER chief were awful in the later years, although I think Banfield would have eventually been fine if she were introduced a year or two earlier. But before that, you had outside hires of Clemente and Moretti, then Wexler (who was a useless addition to the show) and Luka. Luka, given his history of being prone to physical violence and bad behavior on the job, should have never been head of the ER. He would’ve been fired years earlier in real life. Not to mention it was inappropriate when he was in a relationship with Abby to be her chief. (I don’t quite know the politics of that but I can imagine that IRL he’d either never be appointed in the first place because of the relationship or it’d be seen as possible favoritism for him to be supervising his girlfriend.)

14 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

Yes, I recall they seemed to sometimes suggest that County was for doctors who burned out, and then other times, it was treated as a very prestigious place to do your residency.  Given all the bonkers stuff that ended up happening there (Jerry setting off a grenade, helicopter limb accidents, helicopter explosions, a tank attacking the place, criminal shoot outs, multiple staff members being attacked at one time or another, etc.), I'd go with the idea it was a bad place to be.        

After all the lunacy at County, I think it would’ve been an interesting subplot if a character said they were leaving to work at a safer hospital, or just walked out never to be seen again. They all had a weird undying loyalty to that place and kept showing up to work as if it was no big deal that there was just a shootout or a fatal stabbing on the job. Not to mention all the unprofessional behavior that everyone just ignored even if/when it did endanger patients (Luka sleeping with and nearly killing Harkins, Abby working drunk, Mark coming back after his attack clearly still injured and trashing the lounge). Although in the earlier seasons it did seem like the higher-ups like Anspaugh tolerated a lot less nonsense. 

 

Edited March 6, 2022 by Cloud9Shopper

[txhorns79]

I just want someone to slap Abby back to reality in the James Woods episode.  For all her encouragement of him undergoing invasive procedures to stay alive, she is not the person who will be caring for him as he continues to decline from ALS.  She's very arrogant in the episode and is almost mind numbingly self-centered.  I get that he's a beloved professor who helped Abby through a hard time in med school, but damn Abby.  It's not about you. 

Also, does anyone ever point out to Abby that only a few months before she was pregnant with Kovac's kid, Kovac was in a very serious relationship with Sam?  Maybe they should focus more on co-parenting than trying to rush a romantic relationship that seems mostly based around a pregnancy.

13 hours ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

Not to mention all the unprofessional behavior that everyone just ignored even if/when it did endanger patients

Yes, it's kind of amazing that Eve is immediately fired for acting unprofessionally, while Pratt, who doctors a tox screen to protect a friend and interferes in a police investigation (things that could cost him his license and get him fired), gets a 5 day suspension and month long trip to Africa. 

[Cloud9Shopper]

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

I just want someone to slap Abby back to reality in the James Woods episode.  For all her encouragement of him undergoing invasive procedures to stay alive, she is not the person who will be caring for him as he continues to decline from ALS.  She's very arrogant in the episode and is almost mind numbingly self-centered.  I get that he's a beloved professor who helped Abby through a hard time in med school, but damn Abby.  It's not about you. 

Also, does anyone ever point out to Abby that only a few months before she was pregnant with Kovac's kid, Kovac was in a very serious relationship with Sam?  Maybe they should focus more on co-parenting than trying to rush a romantic relationship that seems mostly based around a pregnancy.

Abby and Luka were the very definition of “we’re only together for the kid.” They just never seemed to have very good communication skills or be a passionate couple. I couldn’t believe she begged Luka to marry her/propose to her and then she wanted nothing to do with planning a wedding. It’s fine to want a small wedding but then why not just tell him she’d be happy to do the courthouse thing. I mean, it worked for Jeanie and Reggie (if only the S14 writers hadn’t decided she too needed to be miserable). Abby never really seemed to be very happy to be a mother or expecting either. In the episode where Joe got hurt, Sam was more engaged and natural with him than Abby was. 

It was so different from a lot of the characters who had become parents before that. Doug and Carol seemed to really want and be excited for kids, and even when Carol turned a bit mopey and victimy in S6 she was very nurturing and caring towards the babies as far as we saw. Jeanie loved being a foster/adoptive mom to Carlos and seemed genuinely happy being home with him. Peter made Reese his world and had the contrast of the hard-nosed surgeon to a softie. Then you have Abby, who seemed like she never really loved Joe, never seemed excited about his arrival and would probably end up regretting not having the abortion or getting her tubes tied later in life. Even in pre-term labor she made it all about herself and didn’t seem to care about his survival. All that mattered was her theatrics about what SHE wanted. (I was actually disturbed when I saw her pull the IV away from the nurse and scream at Coburn. That’s not someone who cares about her baby’s well being.) 

 

Edited March 7, 2022 by Cloud9Shopper

[Rootbeer]

11 hours ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

Abby and Luka were the very definition of “we’re only together for the kid.” They just never seemed to have very good communication skills or be a passionate couple. I couldn’t believe she begged Luka to marry her/propose to her and then she wanted nothing to do with planning a wedding. It’s fine to want a small wedding but then why not just tell him she’d be happy to do the courthouse thing. I mean, it worked for Jeanie and Reggie (if only the S14 writers hadn’t decided she too needed to be miserable). Abby never really seemed to be very happy to be a mother or expecting either. In the episode where Joe got hurt, Sam was more engaged and natural with him than Abby was. 

It was so different from a lot of the characters who had become parents before that. Doug and Carol seemed to really want and be excited for kids, and even when Carol turned a bit mopey and victimy in S6 she was very nurturing and caring towards the babies as far as we saw. Jeanie loved being a foster/adoptive mom to Carlos and seemed genuinely happy being home with him. Peter made Reese his world and had the contrast of the hard-nosed surgeon to a softie. Then you have Abby, who seemed like she never really loved Joe, never seemed excited about his arrival and would probably end up regretting not having the abortion or getting her tubes tied later in life. Even in pre-term labor she made it all about herself and didn’t seem to care about his survival. All that mattered was her theatrics about what SHE wanted. (I was actually disturbed when I saw her pull the IV away from the nurse and scream at Coburn. That’s not someone who cares about her baby’s well being.) 

 

Abby really was the epitome of a person who should never, ever have tried to raise a child.  I know she was an alcoholic, but, her kid gets a head injury and is knocked unconscious, he ends up with an MRI and is sent home for observation and her first move is to get stinking drunk and pass out on the sofa because she can't reach his father who is thousands of miles away?  She couldn't have found someone to stay and help her? That Neela wouldn't have come to spend the night?  Or Sam or Haleh  or any one of a dozen other coworkers? She couldn't have hired someone?  Please....  She just looked at the kid as an accessory, like a purse or a watch.  Actually, most people take better care of their purses and watches than Abby did of Joe.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Rootbeer

[Kel Varnsen]

On 3/6/2022 at 6:56 AM, Cloud9Shopper said:

Luka, given his history of being prone to physical violence and bad behavior on the job, should have never been head of the ER. He would’ve been fired years earlier in real life. Not to mention it was inappropriate when he was in a relationship with Abby to be her chief

Luka's job interview for chief would have been hilarious I feel ripped off for not having seen it. "So you have had sex with 3 or is it 4 of your co-workers? And you sometimes disappear to Africa with no scheduled return? And you almost killed a med student? And you are probably suffering from PTSD? Well you are the most qualified applicant we have, so when can you start?

Edited March 7, 2022 by Kel Varnsen

[Cloud9Shopper]

1 hour ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Luka's job interview for chief would have been hilarious I feel ripped off for not having seen it. "So you have had sex with 3 or is it 4 of your co-workers? And you sometimes disappear to Africa with no scheduled return? And you almost killed a med student? And you are probably suffering from PTSD? Well you are the most qualified applicant we have, so when can you start?

I am in the middle of a job search right now (six months and still going; it’s not easy at the moment) and needed this laugh. It’s definitely easier that Luka and County are fictional, though, because otherwise I’d be like “how TF does he have a job and I can barely get an interview?!” 

[Cloud9Shopper]

Watched season 9, episode 4 tonight and I have thoughts.

The one where Luka banged a patient’s mom. So classy. That should’ve gotten him fired and we are still pre-Harkins car accident. I love how Susan is apparently the only adult working in the ER who calls him on it. But why would she not tell Kerry or whoever is the chief at this point about it? 

Carter shouldn’t have leaked Abby’s drinking problem to Susan but I would also argue that Abby can’t say she is a recovering alcoholic and has things under control when she goes boozing and having margaritas with the girls. On a side note she annoys me slightly less when she’s still a nurse and not yet tied to Luka for life. 

Kerry telling Gallant she’d overlook him punching Pratt. Hilarious. I love when Kerry goes into “fuck it” mode. I like Gallant too. Underrated character and I appreciate that he’s low drama when most of the main cast spends their time on their overdramatic navel gazing and angst.

The flu shot mixup with Kerry never goes anywhere else, does it? I liked the news anchors bickering like children though.

My memory of S9 was that the tone definitely changed post-Mark but it wasn’t as bad as I thought it would be. I managed to not mind S9-11 before it really all went to shit after Carter left. 

 

 

[Bastet]

23 minutes ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

I like Gallant too. Underrated character and I appreciate that he’s low drama when most of the main cast spends their time on their overdramatic navel gazing and angst.

I usually prefer that type of character since I'm most drawn to realism within any given genre, but between the writing and, mostly, the actor, I find Gallant a total dud.

[txhorns79]

13 hours ago, Bastet said:

I usually prefer that type of character since I'm most drawn to realism within any given genre, but between the writing and, mostly, the actor, I find Gallant a total dud.

I didn't really buy his relationship with Neela.  They didn't seem to have a lot in common, and it felt like they would have not have lasted as a couple if Michael wasn't off at war.  I felt like the relationship was more to keep him connected to the ER so that when they killed his character, there would be reason for the staff at County to have a strong reaction. 

I am in Season 13.  I really do not like the Curtis Ames storyline, but I will say I did like the trial where you see Ames' view of his treatment by the staff versus how Luka sees the same events.  (Laura Ceron does a good job in those scenes, switching between the Chuny we typically see and the much colder, less compassionate one that Ames sees.)

[Bastet]

7 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I didn't really buy his relationship with Neela.  They didn't seem to have a lot in common, and it felt like they would have not have lasted as a couple if Michael wasn't off at war. 

I didn't, either.  The actors don't have that kind of chemistry, and the characters, as you said, don't have enough in common to explain their being drawn to each other. 

[Cloud9Shopper]

Never mind.

Edited March 10, 2022 by Cloud9Shopper

[PattyorSelma]

I've been noticing a few things here and there that I missed before.  Carrie is always yelling wherever she is and it's pretty funny.  The other day she wanted to know if the naked old man had been discharged. She yelled, "I don't want to see his Wee Willy Wonka!"

Edited March 13, 2022 by PattyorSelma

[txhorns79]

I'll just say that worst possible idea I can think of is to spring a "surprise" wedding on someone like Luka did to Abby.  It's right up there with a publicly staged "surprise" proposal.  It puts a ridiculous amount of pressure on the person being surprised to go along with what is happening, which can't be good for the relationship and why would you ever want to do that to someone you supposedly love. 

[Cloud9Shopper]

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

I'll just say that worst possible idea I can think of is to spring a "surprise" wedding on someone like Luka did to Abby.  It's right up there with a publicly staged "surprise" proposal.  It puts a ridiculous amount of pressure on the person being surprised to go along with what is happening, which can't be good for the relationship and why would you ever want to do that to someone you supposedly love. 

And using Joe as the “secret weapon”. I mean, like, what? The kid has no idea what’s going on. 

That said I never understood prior to that episode why Abby was begging for Luka to marry her and then she wouldn’t plan, wouldn’t communicate what she wanted, etc. Why would one of them just not put the plans on hold and talk about it more? Why did Luka decide to go behind her back and have coworkers plan it? I have a friend getting married in May and if she seemed as reluctant as Abby and her fiancé were having to practically force her into it, I’d wonder why she was doing it. (Luckily she is nothing like Abby and is happy and excited, especially since she already had one broken engagement that she actually felt like she should call off.) It really felt like they were doing it because they felt like they “should”, not because they loved each other. Luka had to practically beg her; how in love could they be?

I find it funny that a lot of people consider Abby and Luka an iconic ER couple on Doug and Carol level, and yet their wedding episode was called “I Don’t” and I read a long time ago that it was apparently the lowest rated episode of ER. Not much of a love story there. 

Edited March 13, 2022 by Cloud9Shopper

[txhorns79]

1 hour ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

It really felt like they were doing it because they felt like they “should”, not because they loved each other. Luka had to practically beg her; how in love could they be?

I did feel like Luka's desire to be with Abby was almost identical to the way he acted with Sam.  It was more about creating a new family to replace the one he lost, and any woman and child would do.

I also have no idea how Gates would be able to remain a resident.  He has zero respect for authority, does whatever medical procedure he thinks is right, regardless of attending instruction and frankly, he's the reason the guy who set off the fireworks that led to the riot at the peace rally was strangled to death in the ER.

[Bastet]

5 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I did feel like Luka's desire to be with Abby was almost identical to the way he acted with Sam.  It was more about creating a new family to replace the one he lost, and any woman and child would do.

That makes sense; look at the way he fixated on gestating Carol.

[Heathen]

7 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I did feel like Luka's desire to be with Abby was almost identical to the way he acted with Sam.  It was more about creating a new family to replace the one he lost, and any woman and child would do.

I also have no idea how Gates would be able to remain a resident.  He has zero respect for authority, does whatever medical procedure he thinks is right, regardless of attending instruction and frankly, he's the reason the guy who set off the fireworks that led to the riot at the peace rally was strangled to death in the ER.

You're right about Luka wanting to replace his lost family. I did think he really loved Joe, but Carol/Sam/Abby was more a means to an end even if Luka couldn't admit it to himself. 

Not to mention Gates shows up for work looking like he just got off a three-day bender. He appears to have no respect for the institution and none for the people he works with, except for Neela, of course. (Did the fireworks guy actually die, or was he resuscitated? I don't remember anything beyond him being strangled.) 

[Hiyo]

Quote

I find it funny that a lot of people consider Abby and Luka an iconic ER couple on Doug and Carol level, and yet their wedding episode was called “I Don’t” and I read a long time ago that it was apparently the lowest rated episode of ER. Not much of a love story there. 

I don't find it funny. Abby and Luka had their fans. I am one of them.

Not the lowest rated episode, there are quite a few that had lower ratings.

[Cloud9Shopper]

 

5 hours ago, Heathen said:

You're right about Luka wanting to replace his lost family. I did think he really loved Joe, but Carol/Sam/Abby was more a means to an end even if Luka couldn't admit it to himself. 

Not to mention Gates shows up for work looking like he just got off a three-day bender. He appears to have no respect for the institution and none for the people he works with, except for Neela, of course. (Did the fireworks guy actually die, or was he resuscitated? I don't remember anything beyond him being strangled.) 

Well, he loved Joe more than Abby did, that’s for sure. Hopefully he eventually got sole custody of him after Abby ran off on another relapse. 

[Hiyo]

Given that practically everyone who left the ER alive seemed to be happy with their lives when we saw them again and seemed to have worked their shit out, I'm giving Luka and Abby the same benefit of the doubt.

Granted, Jeanie Boulet was separated from Reggie when we saw her again in season 14, but she was still happy and content with her life overall.

[Heathen]

I think they were just relieved to be away from County and all the BS. I don't believe happy and content are necessarily the same thing; nor do I believe Jeannie, for one, was truly happy.  https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/both-sides-the-couch/201311/happiness-and-contentment-what-is-the-difference

Edited March 14, 2022 by Heathen

[Hiyo]

I never said they were the same thing, just that from what we saw of the ones who left, they seemed both.

Granted, we never really got any follow up on Anna, Deb, or Malucci...

[Cloud9Shopper]

I watched Be Patient (episode after All in the Family) last night and I loved the…flirting? fling? that went on between Mark’s dad and Elizabeth’s mom and Mark and Elizabeth’s reactions to it. Especially the exchanges between Elizabeth and her mom when she catches them.

Isabelle: “Did you want a cup of tea?”

Elizabeth: “Dear Lord mother, I practically drank the whole pot while you two were saying goodbye.”

Isabelle: “So you’re annoyed, surprised, irritated, chagrined?”

Elizabeth: “That’s a start.”

The scenes between them all later at the bowling alley were fun too, and the moment between Mark and his dad when his dad tells him he’s known about the cancer for a while is heartbreaking.

This was also the episode where Peter tried to take Cleo to the jazz club. Ah yes. The start of one of the most blah soulless relationships in TV history. 

[Claire85]

I loved Carter breaking down Benton’s dating routine in this episode.  “And we all know what happens after the jazz club!”

[txhorns79]

1 hour ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

Especially the exchanges between Elizabeth and her mom when she catches them.

I just love that Elizabeth's mother is played by the same actress who does Sister Monica Joan on Call the Midwife.  Such range! 

[Heathen]

4 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I just love that Elizabeth's mother is played by the same actress who does Sister Monica Joan on Call the Midwife.  Such range! 

The classically trained British actors, like Judy Parfitt, just kill me. They make so many "stars" look like amateurs. 

[Cloud9Shopper]

Watched Where the Heart Is (7x21) last night and I wanted to throw something at the TV with how awful Abby is to Maggie. She goes to the therapy session that Legaspi (who, make no mistake, I’m also not a fan of) told her she didn’t have to attend, but she goes anyway and makes fun of Maggie and laughs at her plans to get her life back on track. And when Legaspi acts her what she suggests instead she has no idea and keeps scoffing/laughing and walks out eventually. Even when these episodes were originally on in 2001 and I was 15 I was cringing at how disrespectful and rude she was. Twenty-one years and life experience still makes me want to slap her, especially since we all know she makes no effort to change her own life when needed. 

I also thought the way Kerry treated Carter about applying for chief resident was interesting now that I know what happens to Abby in S14. Kerry doesn’t seem to forgive Carter all that much for what happened and asks if he honestly expected to be considered for chief resident. But when Abby comes back from rehab in S14, she treats her recovery like a joke and is promptly getting attending job interviews at hospitals and even Anspaugh agrees to interview her for an attending job at County that she promptly gives up after one shift, then she gets the job in Boston with almost no issues. I know it was S14 and the quality of the show at that point was horrendous but they made it sound like Carter should just go work at Burger King and yet Abby isn’t a risk at all and is getting all these job interviews? Huh? 

I know Carter shot up the Fentanyl in the trauma room but Abby still showed up to work drunk and no one even mentions it as a problem. Even Coburn shrugged it off when she found out which is not in character for her at all. It’s really part of why I dislike Abby. She can steamroll whoever she wants and endanger patients and everyone still falls all over her to give her jobs and second chances. 

[ch1]

Mark and Kerry were tough on Carter after rehab.  I get it but they also acted like the reason he started using wasn’t because he was nearly killed on the job.

[Rootbeer]

3 hours ago, ch1 said:

Mark and Kerry were tough on Carter after rehab.  I get it but they also acted like the reason he started using wasn’t because he was nearly killed on the job.

That is one thing on this show that was not like the real world: the complete lack of attention to the mental health of those who worked in the ER and had traumatic experiences there. In real life, every single person working in the ER the night of the stabbings would've been required to speak to a mental  health professional before returning to work and every single one would be offered the opportunity for ongoing counseling and also given time off if needed or transferred to another department at least temporarily if they wanted that.  There would also be mandatory seminars for every employee which would cover PTSD, how to deal with job stress, workplace violence, etc.  People from the chaplain's office would've been crawling all over the place, too.

Also, Carol wouldn't have had to worry about being shorthanded the next day, the ER would've been closed and patients directed elsewhere for at least 12 hours, probably 24 while the police investigated, a thorough cleaning was performed and everybody debriefed.

Carter would've automatically had a psych consult while he was still in the hospital.  Trauma patients who are seriously injured and hospitalized are routinely assessed for emotional issues by the nursing staff.  Carter clearly was suffering both mentally and physically while in the hospital and it should have been addressed.  He might've blown them off, but they would still come and tell him what they had to offer, educate him on PTSD and give him resources for ongoing care.

Then again, who decided that Carter should return to work full time, in a busy ER no less, while he was still obviously in pain and having significant problems walking with crutches?   In what world would Benton or Anspaugh sign a work release for someone in his situation?

Quote

 Even when these episodes were originally on in 2001 and I was 15 I was cringing at how disrespectful and rude she was. Twenty-one years and life experience still makes me want to slap her, especially since we all know she makes no effort to change her own life when needed. 

Abby's treatment of her mother was the last straw for me.  I have a bipolar relative who has gotten into plenty of problems while off his meds and I would never presume to know what was best for him or refuse to even listen to what mental health professionals had to say, let alone mock them as Abby did.  Considering how poorly Abby handled her mother and her brother when she was responsible for them; it was pretty shocking that she seemed to consider herself an expert.  And, when you look at what she wanted for them; it was all for her, really.  She selfishly wanted them locked up and fully medicated someplace where she wouldn't have to deal with them.  She didn't want them treated to help them, it was all about her.  Abby was all about herself, all the time.

Edited March 16, 2022 by Rootbeer

[txhorns79]

12 hours ago, Rootbeer said:

Abby's treatment of her mother was the last straw for me.  I have a bipolar relative who has gotten into plenty of problems while off his meds and I would never presume to know what was best for him or refuse to even listen to what mental health professionals had to say, let alone mock them as Abby did. 

Honestly, I thought the show mostly got it right with Abby's attitude concerning her mother.  From what Abby described, it sounded like her childhood was a nightmare where she was forced to be the adult as her mother cycled through periods of being medicated and then going off her meds.  She described having to lock herself in a closet (or bathroom(?)) when she honestly believed her mother might try to kill her, and having to rely on sympathetic neighbors or friends just to keep she and her brother from starving.  How many times do you think Abby heard from her mother how this would be the time that she finally got it together?  I understood why Abby thought she knew best, even if she was not always right.   

[Bastet]

Yeah, Abby got screwed out of the childhood to which every kid should be entitled, and instead had to frequently parent herself and her brother and take care of her mom, always walking on eggshells never knowing when that version of Abby was going to take over again.  That happens to a sad number of other kids, including with parents whose behavior is not due to a mental illness the drug treatment for which causes such side effects it's not uncommon for people to stop taking them.

Once any of those kids come through it and make their own life, they have to find a way to deal with it for their own sake, whether that's cutting the parent off completely, having a relationship but strictly enforcing boundaries about taking medication, what have you.  But that's a hell of a lot easier said than done, and still having tremendous resentment along with other conflicting emotions at Abby's age is just plain human nature.

And then the brother who was always in it with her turns out to have the same problem, so now she's afraid for him, too, while suddenly re-positioned as the lone outsider -- of course her desire to step in and "fix" the whole situation is sometimes insensitive, misguided, and even outright ugly and wrong.  

[Rootbeer]

9 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

Honestly, I thought the show mostly got it right with Abby's attitude concerning her mother.  From what Abby described, it sounded like her childhood was a nightmare where she was forced to be the adult as her mother cycled through periods of being medicated and then going off her meds.  She described having to lock herself in a closet (or bathroom(?)) when she honestly believed her mother might try to kill her, and having to rely on sympathetic neighbors or friends just to keep she and her brother from starving.  How many times do you think Abby heard from her mother how this would be the time that she finally got it together?  I understood why Abby thought she knew best, even if she was not always right.   

I don't disagree that Abby's childhood was brutal, at least in part due to her mother's illness.  However, she had a second parent who completely abandoned her and her brother despite being aware that Maggie couldn't handle her children for long stretches of time.  Bipolar disorder is a disease, just like cancer or diabetes; but it is hard to treat because the disease itself makes the patient believe that they don't need treatment.  That was not Maggie's fault, just the way it is.  I can understand child and young adult Abby being angry and resentful over the burdens placed on her by her mother's diagnosis, but she seemingly held no grudge against her deadbeat father who should have taken responsibility and chose to disappear instead.  Eventually, Abby became a nurse and then a physician and should have learned and grown and matured to the point where she no longer wanted to punish her mother for being sick.  However, I saw much of Abby's treatment of her mother and her brother as punitive; her way of getting back at them for not being who she wanted them to be.  She made their disease all about her and what she wanted; something she did with a lot of other people in her life.  Abby was just a really mean-spirited and selfish person, IMO, and I don't think it was Maggie's fault that she was.

[Kel Varnsen]

On 3/16/2022 at 11:09 AM, Rootbeer said:

That is one thing on this show that was not like the real world: the complete lack of attention to the mental health of those who worked in the ER and had traumatic experiences there. I

I was kind of wonder about that when I did my rewatch. Now (at least here in Canada) there is a big push in a lot of workplaces and just the general world to be more open about mental health and take away the stigma so that people who need help can get it. I wasn't sure if that was a thing in the real world back when the show was on. That's why I brought up Clemente a little while back and how it was strange that his mental health issues (that seemed to have been due to PTSD from being threatened and then shot) were treated like some kind of character flaw. And Kerry and Luka should be to blame for hiring him. 

[Rootbeer]

37 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I was kind of wonder about that when I did my rewatch. Now (at least here in Canada) there is a big push in a lot of workplaces and just the general world to be more open about mental health and take away the stigma so that people who need help can get it. I wasn't sure if that was a thing in the real world back when the show was on. That's why I brought up Clemente a little while back and how it was strange that his mental health issues (that seemed to have been due to PTSD from being threatened and then shot) were treated like some kind of character flaw. And Kerry and Luka should be to blame for hiring him. 

I did my residency way back before ER premiered in the mid 1980's.  We had a situation where a prisoner (we provided care for them in our outpatient clinics), held a nurse, a resident and a prison guard hostage in an exam room for several hours.  No one was hurt.  He asked for drugs, they sent him an assortment including sleeping pills and he was arrested when he fell asleep.  This happened in an outpatient clinic where the residents saw the patients.

Everyone who worked that day, including those of us who were in other parts of the clinic and didn't know what was happening, were offered counselling.   The resident and the nurse both got a week of PTO to process and get help as needed.  This was well-engrained in the system way before Carter was stabbed.

The hospital also informed the state prison that prisoners were no longer going to be seen in our outpatient clinics.

[txhorns79]

3 hours ago, Rootbeer said:

Eventually, Abby became a nurse and then a physician and should have learned and grown and matured to the point where she no longer wanted to punish her mother for being sick. 

I never got the impression Abby was seeking to punish Maggie.  It was more like she was conflicted vis a vis wanting to take charge on the one hand and wanting to wash her hands of her on the other.   

 

3 hours ago, Rootbeer said:

Bipolar disorder is a disease, just like cancer or diabetes; but it is hard to treat because the disease itself makes the patient believe that they don't need treatment.  That was not Maggie's fault, just the way it is. 

That is one way of looking at it, but it also negates the feelings of those who are forced to be the collateral damage each time the person goes off their meds.  Just to give an idea of how damaged Abby was by her mother, she had an abortion because she was terrified her kid could end up bipolar.

Don't get me wrong, I got tired of the Abby in misery storylines, but I did get where her character was coming from regarding her mother.  One thing Maura Tierney was very good at was telegraphing Abby's world weariness.    

As an aside, Architectural Digest does videos of various celebrity homes, and they did John Stamos a couple of years ago.  He has a door from the "Public Entrance" to the ER by the stairwell with the County logo on it that I think was in nearly every episode, as well as his "Gates' nameplate.   

[Cloud9Shopper]

4 hours ago, Rootbeer said:

I don't disagree that Abby's childhood was brutal, at least in part due to her mother's illness.  However, she had a second parent who completely abandoned her and her brother despite being aware that Maggie couldn't handle her children for long stretches of time.  Bipolar disorder is a disease, just like cancer or diabetes; but it is hard to treat because the disease itself makes the patient believe that they don't need treatment.  That was not Maggie's fault, just the way it is.  I can understand child and young adult Abby being angry and resentful over the burdens placed on her by her mother's diagnosis, but she seemingly held no grudge against her deadbeat father who should have taken responsibility and chose to disappear instead.  Eventually, Abby became a nurse and then a physician and should have learned and grown and matured to the point where she no longer wanted to punish her mother for being sick.  However, I saw much of Abby's treatment of her mother and her brother as punitive; her way of getting back at them for not being who she wanted them to be.  She made their disease all about her and what she wanted; something she did with a lot of other people in her life.  Abby was just a really mean-spirited and selfish person, IMO, and I don't think it was Maggie's fault that she was.

Especially when we know what kind of terrible mother Abby is down the line. With the way she acted as a parent she has no right to complain about everyone else. The pregnancy was only a way to keep Abby and Maura Tierney’s mediocre looks the center of the show. And of course, all the damage she caused with her relapse in S14 that she never really apologized for. It was OK for Abby to ruin everyone else’s lives and cause havoc but God forbid she was the victim…

[Bastet]

3 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

It was more like she was conflicted vis a vis wanting to take charge on the one hand and wanting to wash her hands of her on the other.

I thought that was really well done.  Like most, I got tired of the disproportionate time devoted to her family storyline, but the storyline itself was written and performed well - well, other than the shenanigans at Gamma's grave.  But especially that inevitable ongoing conflict between thinking if she could just somehow get Maggie to consistently do what she needed to do to manage her illness she'd finally have a stable mom, and five minutes later feeling like "Fuck it, I've lost enough of my life to this."

Edited March 17, 2022 by Bastet

[Heathen]

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

I never got the impression Abby was seeking to punish Maggie.  It was more like she was conflicted vis a vis wanting to take charge on the one hand and wanting to wash her hands of her on the other.   

 

That is one way of looking at it, but it also negates the feelings of those who are forced to be the collateral damage each time the person goes off their meds.  Just to give an idea of how damaged Abby was by her mother, she had an abortion because she was terrified her kid could end up bipolar.

Don't get me wrong, I got tired of the Abby in misery storylines, but I did get where her character was coming from regarding her mother.  One thing Maura Tierney was very good at was telegraphing Abby's world weariness.    

As an aside, Architectural Digest does videos of various celebrity homes, and they did John Stamos a couple of years ago.  He has a door from the "Public Entrance" to the ER by the stairwell with the County logo on it that I think was in nearly every episode, as well as his "Gates' nameplate.   

My mother was bipolar. She had the wild ups and downs that one expects from people with bipolar disorder; she exposed us to a lot of people, situations, and things that kids should never ever be exposed to. "Collateral damage" is exactly how I felt, and still feel about her. At times I wanted to tie her to a chair and force her medications down her throat, and other times, I could not stand to have any contact with her. Our relationship at the time of her death and for years before was limited to texts and what little information I chose to give her. I could not trust her with more. I kept her out of most of my life to the extent that she did not know my friends' names or where I worked. That was all I could allow, for self-preservation. 

Yes, it's true that people with bipolar have a disease and can't help it. Yes, it's true that bipolar people are notorious for going off their meds because they think they don't need them or because they like how they feel when they are manic. But that DOES NOT MEAN they get to destroy or damage other people's lives without penalty (like having an angry daughter who wants to commit them), and it doesn't mean that the people who are collateral damage are not entitled to their own feelings. 

 

[Bastet]

Carter knew Paul Sobriki attacked him and Lucy because of undiagnosed, untreated schizophrenia, and was no longer a danger now that he was being treated, but he still freaked the fuck out when he saw him again.  Because objective facts don't carry a lot of weight in the face of emotional trauma.

The two people who were supposed to have as their primary goal in life keeping Abby safe either abandoned her or subjected her to terrible things.  Every time she's confronted with her mother, that's going to be a lot more potent than her being a medical professional in her thirties.

Or, what @Heathen said a hell of a lot better.  Thank you for sharing such a deeply personal perspective on the storyline.

[Hiyo]

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I never got the impression Abby was seeking to punish Maggie.  It was more like she was conflicted vis a vis wanting to take charge on the one hand and wanting to wash her hands of her on the other.   

Yeah, that sounds about right.

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The pregnancy was only a way to keep Abby and Maura Tierney’s mediocre looks the center of the show

Ah, if only her looks were above mediocre then...

[CrazyInAlabama]

What I hated about the Maggie situation was Abby grew up taking care of her mother, and brother.   Then, when Abby is on her own, here comes her mother again, and the psychiatrist and the court said that Maggie could move in with Abby.    I wouldn't have allowed that, in Abby's place.   Everyone ignored the fact that Abby had a full time job, with long hours, and couldn't be home to baby sit her mother.      

I know it was for the storyline, but it still was trampling over what Abby said. I think a halfway house would have been better. 

No matter what Abby did, she couldn't fix her mother and brother, and needed to stop acting as if she could. 

Edited March 20, 2022 by CrazyInAlabama

[Rootbeer]

1 hour ago, CrazyInAlabama said:

What I hated about the Maggie situation was Abby grew up taking care of her mother, and brother.   Then, when Abby is on her own, here comes her mother again, and the psychiatrist and the court said that Maggie could move in with Abby.    I wouldn't have allowed that, in Abby's place.   Everyone ignored the fact that Abby had a full time job, with long hours, and couldn't be home to baby sit her mother.      

I know it was for the storyline, but it still was trampling over what Abby said. I think a halfway house would have been better. 

In real life, the court cannot force anyone to take in a relative unless they are that person's legal guardian.  As for halfway houses for the mentally ill, they are very few and far between.  Even if one could be found that would have been suitable for Maggie, there would have been a months' long waiting list for a spot. In real life, there is no alternative to friends and family providing shelter.  The sort of long term commitment to an institution that Abby was proposing does not exist in this  country. and there is no health insurance of any sort here that would pay for it anyway.  I didn't get the impression that Abby was willing to write a check to a private hospital on Maggie's behalf and the taxpayers have declined to pay for it. Years ago, laws were passed to end the warehousing of the mentally ill and developmentally handicapped.  Unfortunately, nothing was done to replace it with a safe and healthy alternative.

As I recall, the story was that LeGaspi recommended to the court that Maggie go to stay with Abby without actually getting Abby's input on it first.  That was wrong, even if LeGaspi thought she knew Abby.  As it was, when Maggie was released after Abby refused to take her in, she told Abby that they'd found a homeless shelter where she could stay and it was Abby who then changed her mind and let Maggie stay with her. That is pretty much the way it goes. If the family doesn't step up, the patient is on the street.

I have a brother who is bipolar, has been for 40 years and he is far less functional than Maggie.  The only time he ever was placed in a halfway house setting was after he was released from custody after being legally committed to a state institution after committing a felony while manic.  There were about half a dozen residents where he lived for about a month by court order.  He was the only one there who was able to carry on a conversation, most of the others living there were almost catatonic and basically nonverbal.  They'd sit and stare at the TV in the lounge all day.  It was tragic and my brother found it almost impossible to tolerate.  Maggie would never have been able to cope  if she'd ever even been in a position to be sent there.

 

[txhorns79]

Season 15.  While I was sad to lose Pratt, I was glad to see Abby and Luka leave.  Also, I know she comes off as a hard ass, but Angela Bassett is really better than this show deserves. 

And one thing I think this show does do well is keeping the institutional memory of the show alive through nurses like Chuney and Haleh.

[Cloud9Shopper]

I really wish Banfield had come a season or two earlier. I think I would’ve really liked the character had we had more time with her. It’s also nice that she seems to have a functioning solid relationship with her husband. (I’m sure it helps that he’s played by Angela Bassett’s real life husband but I still enjoyed it anyway.) 

 

[ESS]

14 hours ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

I really wish Banfield had come a season or two earlier. I think I would’ve really liked the character had we had more time with her. It’s also nice that she seems to have a functioning solid relationship with her husband. (I’m sure it helps that he’s played by Angela Bassett’s real life husband but I still enjoyed it anyway.) 

 

I still loved Banfield even though we only got her for a season I must admit it did take me a bit to get used to her character because in my opinion she was worse than Kerry was on her first day (at least to me) and that's saying something, but I did end up loving Banfield anyway, and at the same time I get what you're saying too about that because I would loved having her as soon as Kerry left that would have been the perfect time to bring her in and I don't know why that wasn't thought of before.