Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[kili]

Eva may have been a dark, evil truth teller, but she and Leo seem to have been good parents to Snow. The Darling parents seemed to be good people

 

Hansel and Gretel had a good Dad until he was kidnapped by Regina to force them to risk being eaten by the blind witch to steal an apple and then she rewarded them by never letting them see their Dad again until Emma fixed things.  At least their step-mother never tried to leave them in the forest like she does in our version of the story.

 

Geppeto seemed to have good parents who were just a little stupid until Jimminy turned them into puppets and Rumple made them decorations in his house/shop/Underworld.

 

Kristoff got raised by rock trolls and seemed to turn out okay.

[Curio]

This thread has made me realize that we'll probably never learn who Robin's parents are.

 

Also, I'm very intrigued by Killian and Liam's mother. They had to have learned perseverance and loyalty from someone other than their douchebag father.

[YaddaYadda]

Also, I'm very intrigued by Killian and Liam's mother. They had to have learned perseverance and loyalty from someone other than their douchebag father.

 

This stuff is starting to fall into the be careful what you wish category. 

[KingOfHearts]

 

Also, I'm very intrigued by Killian and Liam's mother. They had to have learned perseverance and loyalty from someone other than their douchebag father.

Before you know it, it turns out to be Rumple's ageless mother. (Who we all know is Mary Poppins.) Rumple and Killian's feud is actually sibling rivalry! Plot twist!

[mjgchick]

For whatever reason I keep thinking Hooks mom died because she got sick.

Or maybe I dreamt that.

[daxx]

For whatever reason I keep thinking Hooks mom died because she got sick.

Or maybe I dreamt that.

Very loud headcanon. :) I don't believe his mom has ever been mentioned.

[InsertWordHere]

Since they missed a huge opportunity with Papa Hook, I want his mother to be Davy Jones.

[Curio]

Since they missed a huge opportunity with Papa Hook, I want his mother to be Davy Jones.

 

It boggles my mind that they haven't tackled Davy Jones yet. Like, did Adam & Eddy originally think of the name "Killian Jones" because they thought it sounded cool, but then didn't even think of the ramifications of naming a pirate/sea-loving character with a last name Jones? It's like naming a character "Robert Kringle" in a Christmas-themed story and not realizing that he should be related to Santa.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Curio

[KingOfHearts]

Legitimate question - why do people still ship Rumpbelle? I don't see how that couple can work at all. It hinges on either Belle accepting darkness or Rumple redeeming himself into a hero. 

[Amerilla]

Legitimate answer - because they do. They story is going to do what the story is going to do, and being TS;TW, it's not going to make much sense or be emotionally satisfying, but there are still going to be Rumbelle shippers.

 

There's a larger issue underlying your question - which has come up many times over the last three seasons - that I'd like to just take a moment with:

 

It seems to me that people ship this pairing or that pairing because the story or the actors or the idea touches something in their imagination. It's the idea of the story, or the visual of two characters or actors that one finds attractive. It's not a logical process of sitting around with a flowchart to assess whether a character fits a real-world moral code or philosphy and is thus somehow ship-worthy. It's a fantasy show, so why shouldn't viewers fantasize at will?

 

How we engage with a fictional work is a highly individual process. If the way some people engage is to try to scrutinize scenes to see if that glance between characters in a non-canon ship means something more or if the only reason they hang on from week to week is because maybe, maybe this is the week your preferred ship gets their one or two gif-worthy lines or scenes per season, that's their perogrative. If they want to read or write fanfiction or create art or memes or tropes or gifs to fill what they perceive as gaps in on-screen storytelling, good on them. If they want to hang out with others who reinforce their headcanon or arguments, if this forum, with it's focus with a single ship, is any indication, it's a fun and addictive pastime to find like-minded companions.

 

I haven't addressed any specifics of Rumbelle here because experince has taught me there's not much point. Over they years, I've had private conversations with a number of Rumbelle shippers, Swanfire shippers, Snowing shippers, Belles, Dearies, and others who only lurk around here or comment occasionally on non-ship issues, because too often, an attempt to share why you feel a certain way about certain characters devolves into a perceived group demand that you justify your feelings, so conversation around it fizzles.  
      
Yes, I fully realize nobody is trying to hurt other peoples' feelings, and no, I don't have an easy answer to how we affirmatively create a fully open environment where people feel safe to share their differing interpretations on characters and storylines. But this seemed like a good opportunity to point out that there is a "shadow forum" here that may be unknown to our active membership, and I think it would be much more vibrant if we could work on how to bring them out of the shadows.

[Camera One]

I think the enjoyment individual viewers get out of characters, especially on this show, is based on hope/potential and on the original premise/presentation of a particular character or coupling or relationship, even if they have been ignored or destroyed in recent seasons.  There's always faint hope that the characters/couple might recapture some of their old spark, and sometimes the chemistry of the actors just makes you want to see them together.  That is what makes someone look forward to a certain character.

 

For example, there's not much going on with Emma, Snow and Charming, but there's always hope, right?  *crickets, probably not Jiminy*

[Curio]

Yes, I fully realize nobody is trying to hurt other peoples' feelings, and no, I don't have an easy answer to how we affirmatively create a fully open environment where people feel safe to share their differing interpretations on characters and storylines. But this seemed like a good opportunity to point out that there is a "shadow forum" here that may be unknown to our active membership, and I think it would be much more vibrant if we could work on how to bring them out of the shadows.

 

It starts by you posting your opinion about your thoughts in the main threads. If you don't do that, then that's just perpetuating the concept of a "shadow forum." I would love to hear yours and other opinions, and it's disappointing to hear that there have been side conversations going on that could have started some interesting discussions here in the main threads. Personally, while I don't drool over gifs of Rumple and Belle making eyes at each other, I think their dynamic is fascinating. The only thing that bothers me is that the show tries to paint them as a super romantic couple, but it would be much more truthful and interesting if they admitted that the relationship is pretty dysfunctional and benefits Rumple more than it benefits Belle. That's why I loved their conversation in the last episode because it finally seems like they might be heading in that direction. 

[Rumsy4]

The only thing that bothers me is that the show tries to paint them as a super romantic couple, but it would be much more truthful and interesting if they admitted that the relationship is pretty dysfunctional and benefits Rumple more than it benefits Belle. That's why I loved their conversation in the last episode because it finally seems like they might be heading in that direction.

In my tumblr trawls, that seems to be the consensus among at least some Rumbelle and non-Rumbelle fans. That Belle fell in love with the "beast", and once she accepts that, Rumbelle will begin to work again. Belle shouldn't ask Rumple to change for her sake, etc.. I don't agree. Yes--Belle is self-delusional in some ways, and I do think she is attracted to power. But, until now, Rumple has always promised to change. And she was naive enough to buy it. It's not like she demanded something he didn't want. Rumple himself has been attracted to "goodness". He has wanted to change for the sake of loved ones--be it Neal or Belle. He even sacrificed himself to save their lives from Pan.

However, to quote from Hamilton, "Dying is easy. Living is harder." Rumple has always been too weak to let his Dark Power go so he could test his resolve to be a better man on a consistent basis. It's only when he was artificially given a clean slate and faced with destruction via the Dark Ones unleashed by Nimue and Hook that he realized he didn't want to be a pure-hearted hero after all. He wanted Power. He wanted to be the one in control. Rumple's desire to be a good person and a hero has always been connected to his desire to win or retain the love of someone. Being pure hearted was not enough to save his life, nor keep Belle by his side. He wasn't "rewarded" for being a hero and good man as he had convinced himself he would be. So, he made the choice to embrace the Beast once more.

Rumple has finally woken up and smelt the roses about his own desires. His encounter with Hades shook him enough to make him realize it was prudent to be honest with Belle. At the end of the day, he is confident Belle will choose to remain with him. Otherwise, he wouldn't be telling her all this.

The problem with expecting Belle to be satisfied with a Rumple who is a "better man", but also a "beast", is that, when it comes down to the wire, self will always be no.:1 with Rumple, and he will have no qualms throwing anyone under the bus. Even Belle. For example, some people commended Rumple for not murdering Will Scarlet, but instead telling Belle that she was better off with Will. But that's not really true, is it? He didn't stop Isaac from writing Belle into his dutiful housewife in the AU. If he truly respected her, he would have made sure to tell Isaac to give Belle independence and freedom to choose. Just because Rumple has finally decided to stop knocking Belle unconscious when he wants to do something nefarious doesn't mean Belle is going to be okay with him doing things like kidnapping Zelena's baby to get out of his debt. She always wanted Rumple to choose her over his Power. If the writers really make Belle okay with being in a relationship with Rumple after all this, they would need to stop pretending Belle is a hero, or even someone with self-respect I hope not even A&E are deluded enough to turn Belle into a gangster's wife, and think that's acceptable.

[Shanna Marie]

But, until now, Rumple has always promised to change. And she was naive enough to buy it. It's not like she demanded something he didn't want.

That was the part that was unsettling about this latest conversation. It was like he was blaming her for wanting what he'd promised her. He keeps making those speeches about being a better man and lets her talk to him about his good heart, but now all of a sudden it's her fault for demanding that he be something he isn't. Perhaps he's only just now accepting who he really is and dropping the pretense of trying to be good -- coming out as evil, so to speak -- but if he's only just now figuring out or admitting the truth about himself, it's not her fault for wanting him to be what he said he was trying to be. His wedding vows were all about wanting to be better for her and the good she's done him. It's uncomfortably close to way too many real-world parallels. That's the way addicts and abusers tend to interact with their partners -- apologizing when they screw up, claiming they want to be better, promising that they will do better and it will be different this time around when the partner leaves or threatens to leave, then going right back to their old habits and then blaming their partner for not accepting them as they are.

 

On another note ... we've been talking in the "Brothers Jones" episode thread about the tendency to manufacture relationship angst rather than dealing with what they've already got. Looking at this, so far, we've got:

4B: Belle and Will get into a relationship, which gives Rumple something to get jealous and angry about when he returns after Belle kicked him out.

Long-term implications: none. Belle says she never loved Will and gets back with Rumple. Will vanishes without a trace.

Existing issues that could have done the same thing: Belle becomes friends with Hook, Rumple's oldest enemy, in Rumple's absence. Rumple lost his first wife to Hook. Then his son became friends with Hook after being separated from Rumple. Rumple's second wife becoming close friends with Hook should have been enough to send Rumple over the edge, while tying into the pasts of all the characters and setting up an interesting dynamic for the future, since Hook's still around (with even more reason to hate Rumple).

 

Also in 4B: Emma learns that her parents were so afraid of her potential for darkness (but she had an equal potential for being a hero) that they had all of her darkness removed and put into Maleficent's egg, which then got sent to another world. Her reaction to this news might be what could tip her over into the darkness Rumple wanted.

Long-term implications: None for Emma and her parents. She gets over it and forgives them and doesn't go dark. There's no mention of her lack of darkness having anything to do with her capacity to handle being the Dark One. It does seem somewhat necessary for the plot because the eggnapping is used to explain how Cruella and Ursula ended up in our world and remained young in spite of being outside the curse, and Emma's darkness being in Lily is essential for Isaac getting the magic ink.

Existing issues that could have worked for the Emma part of the story (other stuff would be necessary for the plot part): Emma's parents sent her away at birth. They had no way of knowing how she would be raised or what kind of guidance she would have, which meant they would have no influence over whether she grew up to be good or bad. They did it to save her life and so she could save them, but they weren't an influence on the person she grew up to be. She grew up in an entirely different world, raised by very different people, and so she has a different moral system and a different view of good and evil that's far more pragmatic and less idealistic. She and her parents clash on how to do things, as she's willing to do things they consider dark but that she considers are for the greater good because sometimes doing the hard thing can make things better for everyone.

 

5B: Killian learns that Liam made a deal with Hades in the past that allowed a crew of sailors to die in order to buy the Jones brothers' future, which shatters his ideal of his perfect older brother.

Long-term implications: we don't know yet, but forgiving his brother for not being perfect and realizing that his brother was flawed, too, seems to have cured Hook's PTSD and guilt complex.

Existing issues that could have worked: Killian is facing his beloved and idealized older brother after spending most of the time following Liam's death living the kind of life he knows Liam wouldn't have approved of. He has to have feared he'd be a disappointment to his brother because he didn't live up to his brother's expectations. Meanwhile, Killian has now lived a much longer life than his brother and has a great deal more life experience, making him the older, wiser brother with the experience and wisdom to make his own choices for his life, and it would be difficult for both brothers to get used to that idea.

 

5A: Hook found the father who abandoned him, who's still alive due to an improbable series of events, and Hook kills him in a fit of rage.

Long-term implications: The reminder of this helps trigger Hook to overcome the Darkness, but otherwise there's been no mention so far. It didn't come up with Liam, and Liam 2.0 has been forgotten.

Existing issues that would have worked: See all the stuff about Liam, the seemingly perfect brother who has been Killian's ideal his whole life. A flashback about his brother's expectations for him or his brother trying to train him and guide him when they were kids after they were abandoned would have helped set up the Underworld reunion in the next arc while still reminding Killian of what he wanted to be and without introducing continuity issues or knotty magic rules problems (with a True Love's Kiss between people who hadn't actually met).

[InsertWordHere]

 If they want to hang out with others who reinforce their headcanon or arguments, if this forum, with it's focus with a single ship, is any indication, it's a fun and addictive pastime to find like-minded companions.

 

I haven't addressed any specifics of Rumbelle here because experince has taught me there's not much point. Over they years, I've had private conversations with a number of Rumbelle shippers, Swanfire shippers, Snowing shippers, Belles, Dearies, and others who only lurk around here or comment occasionally on non-ship issues, because too often, an attempt to share why you feel a certain way about certain characters devolves into a perceived group demand that you justify your feelings, so conversation around it fizzles.  

This forum hasn't always been a single ship forum. I would argue that it still isn't, as I certainly still ship Snowing and I was at least interested in Rumbelle until his dagger lie shenanigans. It's not impossible that I could be interested again, but Rumple needs some work before that can happen. I was open to Outlaw Queen until they totally butchered its execution. I maintain that Regina should have found out he had the tattoo in the missing year then forget about it and fall in love with him before seeing it in the current timeline.

 

Shipping Captain Swan does not mean those shippers aren't interested in anything else. I am certainly still interested in the whole show and would be open to discuss its wide array of characters with anyone. My only anti-ship (well besides Wooden Swan but I never thought that would happen) is Swanfire and I was anti-Swanfire long before Captain Swan seemed like it was really going to set sail.

 

That said, I don't think anyone here needs to justify why they ship anything or why they anti-ship anything. 

[YaddaYadda]

I shipped all the couples at one point. Snowing is basically a non entity at this point. They don't write for them, whatever conflict they may have had over Emma in 5x04 did not happen. RB I was on board until the dagger situation, and the proposal. OQ, during the 3B flashbacks, I thought there was potential, but they destroyed that by making the relationship more about the fairy dust.

 

I'm enjoying 5B because they decided to delve into different relationships. Sibling, parental, friendships, how different people view family.

 

The single one thing I loved about 5x16 was Zelena's love for her child. Zelena wasn't like that during her ultra short pregnancy. She was more about what her child can give her, but that seems to have completely changed, and she genuinely loves her daughter, and they did draw a parallel between Cora and Zelena where Cora left her child to give herself her best chance, while Zelena gave her child up to give her her best chance. 

 

And then there's the realization that Henry is not a kid anymore, but an obnoxious teenager who will give anyone lip, and his mothers have a lot of work ahead of them.

 

Even Regina against whom I tend to rag has been really good this arc, and she seems to be more in control of herself. 

 

I want the show to keep building these relationships, because they're good. And maybe it won't come as a shock when someone dies and everyone decides to go and help bring that person back.

Edited April 7, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[Curio]

OQ, during the 3B flashbacks, I thought there was potential, but they destroyed that by making the relationship more about the fairy dust.

 

The fairy dust doesn't bother me so much because this is a fairy tale show and the initial concept of knowing that someone is meant for you could be intriguing, but they never did anything interesting with it. The big strike against Robin and Regina, in my opinion, was never properly exploring what Regina did to Marian. When you brush that gigantic issue under the rug, everything after it doesn't ring true. I thought this observation was interesting:

 

I wonder if Robin's remark about only feeling at home in the forest was meant to subtly reveal that he wasn't entirely happy in Storybrooke, living in the Mayor's mansion.

 

This is another case of the writers not exploring what they already have with these characters. So apparently Robin is Regina's verified soul mate, but they have vastly different views on domestic living. I don't see Regina as someone who would willingly live out in the forest, so shouldn't there be some conflict between Robin and Regina about that? Robin is like the tree-hugging stoner who would be happy to live the rest of his life in his van, but Regina is the successful politician who steals Hillary Clinton's wardrobe and makes comments about foul things that "smell like forest." These are two completely different personality types and I wish the show would explore these contrasting characterizations. You don't need soap opera baby drama or a monster to create conflict, writers!

Edited April 7, 2016 by Curio

[Shanna Marie]

I wonder if Robin's remark about only feeling at home in the forest was meant to subtly reveal that he wasn't entirely happy in Storybrooke, living in the Mayor's mansion.

He hasn't had much chance to, has he? It was maybe a couple of days between his return to Storybrooke and the journey to Camelot, and then I guess there were a couple of weeks after Camelot before the Underworld. We don't even know where he was living during that time. Was he popping by Regina's for sex and then going home to Roland in the woods? Was Roland living with them in the mansion?

 

I know these issues aren't important to the plot, but there is this:

So apparently Robin is Regina's verified soul mate, but they have vastly different views on domestic living.

We don't know if this has even come up between them. For that, we'd have to have seen an actual conversation between them. It does make you wonder what's considered a soulmate, though, if people who have incompatible views on how to live are matched by fairy dust. What is it about them that makes them soulmates? Is it purely sexual compatibility? It doesn't seem to be worldview or lifestyle related. Which makes you wonder what would have happened if she had run away from Leopold to be with him when Tink did the fairy dust trick. She was brought up as a princess in luxury. At the time, he was still a thief, and not even the good "rob from the rich to give to the poor" kind of thief because it was before he knew Marian. Apparently, they'd have had a lovely kiss, according to the alternate reality storybook page, but what would have happened next? Would she have been okay with him being a thief, or would she, rather than Marian, have been the one to reform him? How long would she have lasted in the woods with him?

 

As for this forum, I'd say this isn't really a shipper forum, in general. There's the occasional bout of squee when something happens, but for the most part it's not the place if you just want to squee with likeminded people about any pairing. Every pairing gets put under the microscope for analysis and discussion. Captain Swan may seem to be the preferred ship, but even they're up for criticism of either the characters and their behavior to each other (Emma's walls, her disregarding of his agency, his invisible walls and withholding of information, his being a doormat) or the writers' handling of their relationship.

[YaddaYadda]

 

The fairy dust doesn't bother me so much because this is a fairy tale show and the initial concept of knowing that someone is meant for you could be intriguing, but they never did anything interesting with it. The big strike against Robin and Regina, in my opinion, was never properly exploring what Regina did to Marian. When you brush that gigantic issue under the rug, everything after it doesn't ring true. I thought this observation was interesting:

 

 

This is another case of the writers not exploring what they already have with these characters. So apparently Robin is Regina's verified soul mate, but they have vastly different views on domestic living. I don't see Regina as someone who would willingly live out in the forest, so shouldn't there be some conflict between Robin and Regina about that? Robin is like the tree-hugging stoner who would be happy to live the rest of his life in his van, but Regina is the successful politician who steals Hillary Clinton's wardrobe and makes comments about foul things that "smell like forest." These are two completely different personality types and I wish the show would explore these contrasting characterizations. You don't need soap opera baby drama or a monster to create conflict, writers!

 

How are we assuming that Robin and Regina are shacking up though? I mean we didn't see them move in together. Maybe he spends the night there once or twice a week before he goes back to Little John and the Merry Men.

 

I mean I'm just sayin'.

 

About the Marian situation, I was mostly talking before we ever found out what happened to her. I still don't understand why the writers ever went there if they weren't planning on addressing any of that. It's like opening a can of worms and then distancing themselves completely from it.

Edited April 7, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[Mari]

 

The fairy dust doesn't bother me so much because this is a fairy tale show and the initial concept of knowing that someone is meant for you could be intriguing, but they never did anything interesting with it. The big strike against Robin and Regina, in my opinion, was never properly exploring what Regina did to Marian. When you brush that gigantic issue under the rug, everything after it doesn't ring true. 

I think this is what keeps some of the relationships from interesting me--and not just the romantic ones.  The giant elephants in the room that don't usually get addressed in a reasonable fashion are too distracting for me to invest in them.

 

I still probably wouldn't be able to break into squeaky sounds of joy about the pairing, but Rumple was finally honest about who he really is, and what he really wants from Belle, and it's not what Belle seems to believe she wants.   A relationship where Belle has to actually face who and what Rumple is, and whether she can live with what that means for who she is?  That's got potential, if the characters are allowed to have realistic emotional reactions.

 

Why did it take 4 seasons to get there?  And why am I so suspicious that they'll go back to the status quo in an episode or so?

 

Even David/Snow--a pairing I truly enjoy--is less enjoyable because none of the actual problems are addressed beyond a jokey comment or two.

 

I'd even find the Charmings' relationship with Regina more interesting if they were allowed to have occasional bouts of authentic reaction.

[Curio]

How are we assuming that Robin and Regina are shacking up though?

I'm not assuming that, but it's pretty pathetic that the show doesn't even address simple world-building things like where several characters sleep. It doesn't matter whether or not Robin and Regina are shacking up, the point I was making is that they seem to have very different preferences in styles of living. Robin said he always felt more at home in the forest, and Regina has never been shown to be the outdoorsy type. That alone should cause some future drama when they decide to consolidate their family into one living space.

 

It's like opening a can of worms and then distancing themselves completely from it.

 

That's basically this entire show in a nutshell.

[YaddaYadda]

Robin said he always felt more at home in the forest, and Regina has never been shown to be the outdoorsy type. That alone should cause some future drama when they decide to consolidate their family into one living space.

 

Writers: Let's build Regina and Robin a house in the middle of the forest!

 

Maybe that's the entire reason they're killing off Robin, to avoid conflict. I mean that's another way of doing it.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Writers: Let's build Regina and Robin a house in the middle of the forest!

That's what they did with Neal. They didn't want to deal with his conflict with Emma or Rumple, so they just got rid of him.

 

 

I still probably wouldn't be able to break into squeaky sounds of joy about the pairing, but Rumple was finally honest about who he really is, and what he really wants from Belle, and it's not what Belle seems to believe she wants.   A relationship where Belle has to actually face who and what Rumple is, and whether she can live with what that means for who she is?  That's got potential, if the characters are allowed to have realistic emotional reactions.

 

I could ship Rumpbelle if it was meant to be a twisted, dysfunctional relationship. My problem as it stands is that the show has been trying to frame it as heroic and good. It's based around Belle seeing the man behind the beast and steering him toward the light. The writing has been trying to get us to fall for it over and over again, only for the shocking!twist that Rumple betrays her. I did like that Rumple flat out said that game has to end. That's a sign that maybe this couple has hope in the future to be compelling as a case of destructive love. But we shall see.

Edited April 7, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[profdanglais]

As far as various ships go, I loved Snowing in the first season, some of their moments then are still among my favourites. They've got a bit dull since, but that's pretty typical--no one knows how to write interesting drama for married people. I was on board for Swanfire too until Neal turned out to be such a complete twat bastard (still angry that they turned badass little Baelfire into that *£&%%£@$!). I liked the twist of Rumpelstiltskin being the Beast, but beyond that didn't really engage with Rumbelle that much, mostly I think because I don't like the characterisation of Belle, and frankly, they are just irritatingly repetitive now ("I can change!" "I know you have a good heart!" etc etc ad nauseam). Outlaw Queen has just always seemed so odd. I'm not against the idea of Regina having a fated love, but the execution of that relationship has just been weird and unnatural, they seem shoehorned together totally at random. Does anyone really, truly believe that if it weren't for that tattoo, Regina would have given Robin a second look? They have nothing in common, and despite the crypt shenanigans, no sexual chemistry to make the opposites-attract thing plausible. 

 

My ship is Captain Swan, even though originally I liked Hook as a character largely because I loved the romance of the wicked, hot AF pirate being so torn up by his girlfriend's death that he goes on a 300 year revenge quest, and I remember watching Tallahassee and thinking "they're not really going to put Emma with Hook, are they? What about his epic murdered love?" But I'm also a sucker for some tortured longing, and season 3 CS had that in spades. I like that Killian loves so wholeheartedly, and I like that Emma has someone who is always on her side. But beyond that they are the only couple who still have some dramatic interest, who still shoot sparks off each other, and who really seem like they are based in something solid. With Snowing sidelined (or egg babied, which is worse), Rumbelle repetitive, and OQ plain odd, what do we have left to discuss but CS? 

[Curio]

With Snowing sidelined (or egg babied, which is worse), Rumbelle repetitive, and OQ plain odd, what do we have left to discuss but CS?

 

I'll add to this—with the total lack of friendship-building on the show now, it's difficult to even discuss that. (Which is why we complain about it instead of analyze it, I suppose.) My Season 1 OTP used to be the Mary Margaret and Emma friendship...and look where we are now.

[CheshireCat]

I think the "problem" if you want to call it that, that they're having with relationships on the show is that they don't want to explore them. They want to explore the journey of good vs evil and redemption. In theory, by the end of S3, they wouldn't have needed any new fairy tale fights. They could have left Marian dead and would have had enough material to fill two seasons by exploring Emma and Hook, Regina and Robin and Rumple and Belle. They could also have thrown in a bit of Rumple development while they were at it and what he needed to do/what needed to happen for Rumple and Belle to be happy.

 

I feel like the only ones whose relationship didn't need exploring are Snow and Charming because they had a very different journey and we explored their relationship during flashbacks and saw it grow. We did see some of Rumple and Belle's relationship grow but Emma and Hook and Regina and Robin were just thrown together because, it seems, the women needed a partner.

 

I like the idea of both relationships and I am willing to accept that the exploration was sacrificed for the fight of good vs evil. But I definitely would have preferred if the focus had shifted and the exploration of those two relationships especially had been moved to the foreground and the fight into the background. They could still have done both, they would just have needed to make it less complicated and not bring in any new characters.

[Shanna Marie]

The giant elephants in the room that don't usually get addressed in a reasonable fashion are too distracting for me to invest in them.

That's the big thing for me. There are these unresolved and unaddressed issues that should affect these relationships, so not addressing them makes the relationships appear fake. Plus, they're missing out on good story material by not addressing them. As a result, the relationships we have don't seem very organic. They're together because the writers said so.

 

Take the friendship between Regina and Emma. I could buy into the concept. They do have things in common, and there's Henry. But it seems like something that should have taken a lot more time. We didn't really see any transition between them being enemies, with Regina trying to kill Emma and her entire family, and them suddenly being allies and friends. I can't imagine becoming friends with someone who would do the things Regina did to Emma and her family without having any kind of apology, admission of wrongdoing, or promise not to do it anymore. That would have to come first even before being reluctant allies (at least the pledge not to try to kill them again. The apology might take longer). Even if I can buy that Emma might be able to bury the chainsaw and accept Emma as a friend, I can't buy it as a real friendship while the elephant named Graham is in the room. Regina is not being a true friend if she can whine about Emma ruining her life in bringing Marian back without ever coming clean about having murdered Emma's potential boyfriend to keep him away from Emma (or even shown any sign of being aware that she had done this). If this were even the worst-written soap opera, I'd be thinking that this was the other shoe waiting to drop, that just when Emma needed to be able to trust Regina, she'd learn about Graham and be furious not only that it happened but that her supposed friend had hidden that from her.

 

There's all sorts of interesting potential with Snow and Regina, where Snow never really seems to have stopped loving Regina as her stepmother. It's highly ironic that the thing Snow did that Regina can't forgive her for and that set off this whole revenge thing was done out of love for Regina. Snow put Regina's happiness ahead of her own. Now there's almost a role reversal because Snow is so maternal, even with Regina (who I suppose is emotionally stunted). The scene where Regina tells Snow that Snow defeated her by becoming her friend was lovely, but it was marred by the fact that, again, we never had an admission of wrongdoing or an apology. We've had Snow groveling to Regina about Cora and about Daniel, but never a "sorry I had your father killed, sorry you didn't get to see your daughter grow up" from Regina, and that makes their current interaction seem hollow.

 

I think there's potentially interesting stuff for Snow and David as a married couple. They barely got a chance to live as a married couple before the curse. Now they're getting the life they thought they wanted with another baby. But we haven't seen them really doing anything that looks like them trying to relish Baby Do-Over's milestones, no "OMG, we're really parents!" moments. They've had a few interesting conflicts when they aren't in the background. Then there's the interaction between them and their daughter. How can they resist writing such a wacky family, where mom, dad, and daughter are all about the same age and mom and daughter are friends (remember when they were friends?) and daughter has more of a varied life experience than her parents. Since she should still have fake memories of bringing Henry up, she's a more experienced parent than they are.

 

With Robin and Regina, I don't know why they'd want to be together, aside from the tattoo and pixie dust. Would they want to be together if she hadn't seen the tattoo? He admired her bold audacity and her ass, but she didn't seem remotely interested in him. What do they talk about? What do they do together? Do they have conflicts over these things? Then there's the elephant named Marian. We don't know what he thought about that or how much he knows. Now he might assume that the "monster" accusations were made by Zelena and weren't true, but how solid can their relationship be if she hasn't come clean about what she knows she did to Marian? Again, on even the worst soap opera you'd be waiting for this truth to come out and the horrible fallout, but the truth kind of came out and no one cared. That's not a real relationship or even one you can pretend is real.

 

Sadly, I've seen way too many real-life relationships that are similar to Belle and Rumple (without the magic), and that's why I can't find them romantic. I've seen how ugly that can get. It's painful and dysfunctional, and someone often ends up dead. You just have to read the newspaper every day to see that dynamic playing out.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Take the friendship between Regina and Emma. I could buy into the concept. They do have things in common, and there's Henry. But it seems like something that should have taken a lot more time. We didn't really see any transition between them being enemies, with Regina trying to kill Emma and her entire family, and them suddenly being allies and friends.

When Breaking Glass is the episode that makes that happen, you know it's screwy.

 

 

Sadly, I've seen way too many real-life relationships that are similar to Belle and Rumple (without the magic), and that's why I can't find them romantic. I've seen how ugly that can get. It's painful and dysfunctional, and someone often ends up dead. You just have to read the newspaper every day to see that dynamic playing out.

I have too. There's a relationship I've seen in real life that was eerily similar to Rumpbelle. It was not good.

 

I'm not really shipping anyone at the moment, except for maybe Twin Devils or Wicked Hot. I used to ship Captain Swan, but that was mostly for the realistic dating romance that wasn't sucked in by the plot. 

Edited April 7, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[ABitOFluff]

This forum hasn't always been a single ship forum. I would argue that it still isn't, as I certainly still ship Snowing and I was at least interested in Rumbelle until his dagger lie shenanigans. It's not impossible that I could be interested again, but Rumple needs some work before that can happen. I was open to Outlaw Queen until they totally butchered its execution. I maintain that Regina should have found out he had the tattoo in the missing year then forget about it and fall in love with him before seeing it in the current timeline.

 

Shipping Captain Swan does not mean those shippers aren't interested in anything else. I am certainly still interested in the whole show and would be open to discuss its wide array of characters with anyone. My only anti-ship (well besides Wooden Swan but I never thought that would happen) is Swanfire and I was anti-Swanfire long before Captain Swan seemed like it was really going to set sail.

 

That said, I don't think anyone here needs to justify why they ship anything or why they anti-ship anything. 

I agree that this forum is definitely not a single ship forum, but there just happens to be a lot more members talking about CS than any other ship.

 

I hate the thought that anyone feels left out because they don't ship CS, so it might be nice for ships to have their own thread. I know relationship discussions technically belong here, but shipping involves so much more than the canon relationships, that I personally would love to hear more about why others ship who they do and why. 

 

And as it's been pointed out, shipping doesn't necessarily mean romantic partnerships, but also friendships (CaptainCharming, anyone?).

Edited April 7, 2016 by ABitOFluff

[KingOfHearts]

 

I agree that this forum is definitely not a single ship forum, but there just happens to be a lot more members talking about CS than any other ship.

If you don't think Captain Swan is just perfection, it's pretty likely you'll get overwhelmed on this board. Whenever I've seen any positive discussion about Rumpbelle or Outlaw Queen, it's never carried. (This happens mostly in the episode threads.) That's just my personal observation. I tend to see only one "camp" represented on a consistent basis.

Edited April 7, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Dianthus]

Late to the party here, but whenever I think about who had/has it the worst out of the mains, I always come back to: yeah, they've all had it rough, but only one of them is missing a body part.

As for the romantic shipping, there's one ship on which I proudly sail, one (non-canon) that I'd never set foot on in a million years ('cuz, ew), and the rest are mostly just there. I'd love to see more of Snowing, but not if it means more eggbaby style nonsense.

[KAOS Agent]

 

I feel like the only ones whose relationship didn't need exploring are Snow and Charming because they had a very different journey and we explored their relationship during flashbacks and saw it grow.

 

I actually don't think this is particularly accurate. Snowing had a couple of flashbacks where the two met and fell in love instantly. Then they were separated and pined for the other. I never really found their relationship to be very developed at all. They just were True Love and that's all she wrote. I'm not a fan of insta-love pairings, so this was a problem for me with Snowing. She's a princess and he's a shepherd. What kind of differences of opinion do they have with regards to ruling a kingdom? Does he have feelings about how Bo Peep was allowed to terrorize the citizenry while the royals did nothing?  Why can't David ever stand up and stop Snow when she's doing stupid things like eggnapping? Love does not truly conquer all. Yes, I know they fought for the other and sacrificed for each other, but I still don't know why. How many times had David talked with Snow before he gave her True Love's Kiss? Three times? Four? What do they talk about? What do they have in common? There needs to be some substance behind a relationship and I feel like there was a lot of smoke and mirrors, but no substance behind that pairing. 

Edited April 8, 2016 by KAOS Agent

[Rumsy4]

Yes, I know they fought for the other and sacrificed for each other, but I still don't know why. How many times had David talked with Snow before he gave her True Love's Kiss? Three times? Four? What do they talk about? What do they have in common? There needs to be some substance behind a relationship and I feel like there was a lot of smoke and mirrors, but no substance behind that pairing. 

 

For all that Snowing at the longest-standing couple in the Show, isn't it a shame we still don't know beyond the surface level of their relationship? We don't know if they talk about anything that doesn't relate to the crisis they are facing at any given moment. 

 

Emma teases Hook with pop culture references, but have they ever actually sat down and streamed something on Netflix? I do love some of the conversations they have that doesn't relate to plot. For example, when Emma shared her box of treasures with Killian in the episode that shall not be named. He has also shared with Emma about how the ocean soothes him. Rumple introduced Belle to a hamburger, and that was a very cute scene. But what did they talk about while eating it? 

 

Part of the problem why normal conversations seem to rare in the Show is becasue there is zero world-building. We know nothing about arts, sports, or culture in the EF or Storybrooke. I can't remember a single conversation between any of the characters that was about art or music or books. Hades listens to Paganini. Which I suppose, makes him the most cultured character in the entire Show. The rest of them do nothing unrelated to solving the crisis of the week. They don't have time to watch movies, listen to music, play a game of scrabble, read a book of fiction, etc.. If the crises stop hitting them one after the other, the characters may suddenly wake up and realize they have very little to talk about. 

[HoodlumSheep]

If we're talking about ships in general...I mainly ship CS and Snowing still. And if you count Wonderland then also Cylice and Scarlet Queen.

I do have some anti-ships, but I just tend to ignore them for the most part. Except for Scarlet Beauty. Mention Scarlet Beauty and I will rage. Such a disservice to Wonderland.

I actually have a ton of brotps, despite most of them being non-existent because the characters only interact in 1 or 2 episodes.

Hook's the "village bicycle" when it comes to my brotp ships. Hook x the Disney princesses is my favorite thing.

Also, my guilty pleasure ship is Rumple and Cora. They're so twisted, I loved them together.

[Faemonic]

Positivity Time! Relationship moments I shall treasure like a pirate:

Mary Margaret and Emma as roomies, parent-teacher concerns combined concerning Henry, "plunging necklines", and Emma's way of comforting a prime suspect in a murder investigation as she takes MM's mugshots. And after Emma was forced at gunpoint to sew a hat. If they got their memories wiped and Jefferson for whatever reason repeated it, I feel like the Emma now wouldn't even gag MM with an "it's going to be okay".

Regina and Rumple teaming up. Yes, he manipulated events to manipulate her to get into that mentor-mentee position in the first place. Enough of those flashbacks can sour that relationship. Yes, they're at odds with the most life-changing thing that either of them have done: the purpose of Storybrooke. But remember when he asked her in Neverland if she remembered the sleeping spell, and she gave him a patented Reglare-Glower? Remember when Charming was all, "How many people do we know who can spin straw into gold?" And Regina just has this grin like Senseiiiii~!

Neverland Emma looking to the mother with which she has a unique unwanted relationship and deciding that is what Lost Boys need. (The pre-Shattered-Sight pre-conciliation went so much better than I'm remembering, okay, what happened onscreen was not what happened! So that's how I can say this next thing...) Mary Margaret finding Dark Swan cuffed and passed out on the sofa of Casa Operation Light Swan. The scene cut right before MM could properly emote, but in my head the scene continued and Mama Margaret totally did!

The Captain Charming vitriolic bromance that we almost never see again. Hook and Regina, their chats about moral philosophy. Hook and Ruby competing for the position of Town Bike that will now never happen.
 
Belle and Ariel solving crimes. Belle and Dreamy inspiring each other. Belle and Ruby saving each other from dates and "I'm kind of an expert at rehabilitation" d'aww no Belle you suck at it but d'aww.
 
Mary Margaret to Ruby: "So, your grandma's kind of intense..."
 
Cora and Anastasia. No manipulation really needed...at first...just the two best lines of dialogue I've ever had the pleasure to hear. "I don't think keeping secrets is a good way to start a marriage." "But it's an excellent way to start a friendship."

Edited April 8, 2016 by Faemonic

[Curio]

The problem with the friendships on the show now, ​Faemonic, is that they think giving you one tiny scene like the ones you listed per season is enough to satisfy the audience. Fans will complain about the lack of Snow/Emma friendship scenes, but Adam & Eddy will be like, "Hey, remember that one time during 5x02 where they had a 20 second scene getting ready for the ball? What more do you want from us? How about a bunch more Regina/Emma scenes instead!" Fans will complain about the lack of Belle/Nevenger friendship scenes, but Adam & Eddy will be like, "Hey, remember that one time during Camelot where she helped Charming and Hook free Lancelot, and then she promptly disappeared for the rest of the episode to go on a useless side plot with a guest star? See, we addressed it!"

 

We should ideally be having these kinds of unique friendship and character moments every episode, not one time in a 22-episode season. It's like the only "friendship" that is allowed to have more than 3 minutes of screen time per episode for multiple episodes a season is Regina and Emma, and after the shit that went down in Season 4, it's like nails on a chalkboard watching their scenes now. There are other friendship combinations that can be explored, and in fact, showing us more and more friendship combinations on a regular basis is what helps make Storybrooke feel real. There's so much potential for Storybrooke to feel alive like Springfield or Pawnee, but because the friendships are all so shallow and the world-building so hallow, the town seems like a 2-dimensional play set.

Edited April 8, 2016 by Curio

[HoodlumSheep]

I loved all the relationships in Wonderland, really (red genie, cora/anastasia, ana and jafar, amara and jafar, etc.)

Knalice is the ultimate brotp of the Onceverse in my opinion. They're platonic soulmates. :P I love them so much. They were an actual developed friendship.

There doesn't seem to be too many legit brotps in the Onceverse sadly (as in not mainly fanon or only lasting 1 or 2 eps, or being poorly developed. We used to have Snow and Red, but that basically stopped in season 3. We had Frozen Swan, but obviously that arc is past.

While the Savior Queen friendship is actually a lot better in 5b (like, actual friendship-like moments for once), season 4 will always be a stain on their "friendship" status for me.

Edited April 8, 2016 by HoodlumSheep

[Camera One]

The problem with the friendships on the show now, ​, is that they think giving you one tiny scene like the ones you listed per season is enough to satisfy the audience. Fans will complain about the lack of Snow/Emma friendship scenes, but Adam & Eddy will be like, "Hey, remember that one time during 5x02 where they had a 20 second scene getting ready for the ball? What more do you want from us? 

 

This is right on.  We were all so happy to see Charming get to talk to Henry, that it was in hindsight that we realize they got 2 minutes and the last time was 3 seasons ago.  So if that's the case, why not give Henry and Charming the C arc for the entire episode or over the course of 2-3 episodes?  

 

There have been lots of character screentime analysis, but what about pairings?  How many minutes of Emma/Snow vs. Emma/Regina and Snow/Regina?  It's disproportionate.  

 

They had to write Red off because they had nothing else for her to do... so, what was her friendship with Snow, chopped liver?  They didn't even get a scene when Snow was nursing that dumb hole in her heart.  Though come to think of it, hardly Charming or Emma got to interact with her either, since they just let her sit on the bed.  

 

Friendships and family relationships beyond a few exceptions are not valued on this show, despite A&E using that as a selling point.

[YaddaYadda]

Emma teases Hook with pop culture references, but have they ever actually sat down and streamed something on Netflix? 

They started then they chilled?

 

As a Henry hater, I really liked the scene with him and David, and wish there was just more of those moments. 

[KingOfHearts]

I shipped Scarlet Queen so hard. I was so ticked they didn't get a follow-up when Will came aboard in S4. Never cared for Cylice...

 

 

For all that Snowing at the longest-standing couple in the Show, isn't it a shame we still don't know beyond the surface level of their relationship? We don't know if they talk about anything that doesn't relate to the crisis they are facing at any given moment.

 

Snowing was never developed at an interpersonal level because its purpose is mainly to anchor the show in a traditional pairing. They're a couple because they're Snow White and Prince Charming. If you look back at S1, their relationship is rushed and heavily circumstance-dependent. Same goes for Mary Margaret and David. (Although they did get a few kitchen sink scenes.) Their love was sold through the "True Love" trope instead of organic development. Outlaw Queen was given a similar treatment, but they've got so much less to work with over time.

Edited April 8, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

They started then they chilled?

If I don't get to see them watching a movie on netflix, I at least want to see evidence that they "chilled" instead. ;-)

[KingOfHearts]

 

At the end of the day, it's Belles choice whether she wants to stay with her husband or go. No one is twisting her arm into staying with him. But now, she has someone else to think about. It's not just about her. If she wants to have blind faith in Rumple, when he betrays her trust once again, it's on her. She refuses to see him for who he really is, and she seems to especially refuse to listen to what he's telling her.

Belle's got a baby to think about now. It's not like she's trapped in Rumple's castle and he's under some curse. The circumstances have changed entirely. She found out it's not the Dark One that's hooked on power - it's Rumple himself. Now she has free will and a baby on the way. If she makes the same choices with all this new information, then she's truly too stupid to live. She's using old logic for a new problem.

 

She's not getting help in her current crisis, either. The other characters get to counsel each other, why can't anyone give Belle some advice? Regina knows how to deal with Rumple and Emma knows a thing or two about female independence. It seems like that would work well, but no one seems to care about her. It's not like they're too busy. They're just waiting around for Henry to write teen fanfiction. I hate seeing Belle just standing there whenever she's with the group. Maybe she wouldn't so dumb if she had better influences in her life.

Edited April 8, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Mari]

I see your point, and even agree with it to a degree.

But, who should be giving Belle advice? And what could they say.

Belle has refused repeatedly to listen to what anyone has to say about Rumple's issues. There have even been scenes where she's basically blamed some of his victims. When he does anything not blatantly solely selfish, she's gone on about how heroic that was. Nealfire tried to get her to be more realistic about Rumple, and she told Neal that she loved Rumple the way he was.

Yes, some of it is the nature of the show, but she's already proven she won't listen, and minimizes to a ferocious degree anything he does wrong. (Not killed anyone Dark Swan as evil as full Imp Rumple, for example.)

Who would she listen to?

Edited April 8, 2016 by Mari

[KingOfHearts]

 

Who would she listen to?

Everyone who has told her to break up with Rumple has been framed as "bad". This includes Gaston, Mirror!Belle, Moe, and S2 Hook. Whenever Belle has learned from a "good" source, it's been to stick it out with Rumple, such as with Mulan. The Nevengers don't seem to have any opinion of the couple, other than maybe Hook for a brief time in 4B. In 4A, they assumed Rumple had a happy ending because "he got Belle". I don't understand how they can know how dangerous Rumple is, watch him betray her repeatedly, then do nothing about it. 

 

Funny how the "they're family" excuse applies to Rumple but not Belle, even though she's technically family too.

Edited April 8, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Curio]

In 4A, they assumed Rumple had a happy ending because "he got Belle". I don't understand how they can know how dangerous Rumple is, watch him betray her repeatedly, then do nothing about it.

 

I find it interesting how the characters will say, "Oh, Rumple finally got his happy ending because he got Belle," but they don't say it the other way around and say, "Oh, Belle finally got her happy ending because she ended up with Rumple." It makes Belles seem like a prize Rumple needs to win, and I suppose if you're a Rumple fan it becomes easier to root for something like that, but it's hard for me to imagine a Belle fan feeling happy about everyone disregarding Belle's feelings. Are there any Belle fans who aren't Rumbelle fans? If so, I'd love to hear from you about this.

Edit: I don't want to make this seem like an exclusive invitation. Rumbelle fans, I'm interested in your input as well.

Edited April 8, 2016 by Curio

[Rumsy4]

Now she has free will and a baby on the way. If she makes the same choices with all this new information, then she's truly too stupid to live. She's using old logic for a new problem.

 

Exactly. Belle's been trying to keep Rumple from doing dark magic ever since the Dark Curse broke by dangling the carrot of their relationship in front of him. He simply paid lip service to her wishes and kept doing his own thing behind her back. If her conditions didn't work back then, they're not going to work now that he is both unapologetic about who he is and is also the ultimate Dark One ever. 

[KAOS Agent]

From the Spoiler Thread:

 

 

I could be completely wrong, but it looks like a stubborn thing at this point, where she spent a lot of time believing or wanting to believe that he is a certain way, when he really isn't. I think she's invested in who she wants him to be more than who he really is.

 

I think that the biggest problem is that the Rumpel that Belle fell in love with in "Skin Deep" is now a different character. That Rumpel had a lot of complexity and depth and you could see a glimmer of the good man beneath the Darkness. Belle was that brief flicker of light and hope in the Darkness and you could see how that might help him fight to get out from under that curse. That was the person Belle loved. Unfortunately, this show has removed a lot of that complexity and made Rumpel into a moustache twirling villain who has repeatedly demonstrated his lack of care for anything besides his power.

 

I like that they've finally got Rumpel standing up and saying what many have thought for a while about him. He is the guy who loves power and clings to the Darkness. Once stripped of it, he didn't care for the feeling and worked to get it back - to hell with the consequences. Belle can't excuse him anymore. This is who he is and wants to be. She can try to stubbornly cling to the previous version of the man, but when even he's laying out the reality of the situation, that perception of him is going to be hard to maintain.

[Shanna Marie]

They are in a place with dead people they never thought they would meet or see again. Emma really had no questions or curiousities about Milah?

Does Henry even realize his grandmother was around and he missed seeing her? Did he have any inkling that the friend they mentioned losing was his grandmother?

 

I posted something similar to the Hook thread about how they all interacted with Liam. He could have been any random person with Underworld knowledge from the way they all acted. If he was planning to move on with his brother, than I could see why he didn't bother digging too much into the strangeness of Killian's would-be future in-laws, with the parents the same age as their daughter and the girlfriend's teenage son also calling some other woman "Mom," but wouldn't he have been at least a little curious to find out about these people who traveled into the Underworld because of his brother? Wouldn't he have wanted some insight from them about what his brother had been up to, what his life had been like? And wouldn't they have been curious about him and his insight into Hook? There was no indication that any of them other than Emma even knew that the guy looking for the book with them was Hook's brother. No asking what Hook was like as a kid, was he always like this, did he always have that temper, was he the one who taught Killian to sail, etc. The brothers didn't even act much like reunited long-lost brothers -- no big brother bossing around little brother, sharing embarrassing stories, no reacting to him being all grown up now.

 

You'd think that as much as James supposedly resents David, he'd have been right there to confront David the moment he knew his brother was in the Underworld. I guess he knew he'd have to wait for his centric. So far, the only people they've bothered to look up are Regina's father, Daniel, and Hercules. It was Rumple who tracked down Milah. I guess all the talk about giving people hope and helping them move on only applies if they're useful to the plot.

[Camera One]

He simply paid lip service to her wishes and kept doing his own thing behind her back. If her conditions didn't work back then, they're not going to work now that he is both unapologetic about who he is and is also the ultimate Dark One ever

 

After declaring that he is who he is and Belle has to love it or lump it, I'm going to be really pissed if Belle has a centric where she comes to the realization that she can love someone like Rumple.  It's not just warts and all... Rumple killed Milah just a few days previously and unfeelingly stole the Dark One powers while Hook died. Loving someone who has made a few mistakes or someone who is consistently on the path to redemption is completely different from loving someone who is still actively disregarding or taking human life for the sake of power.

Edited April 9, 2016 by Camera One

[Geeni]

 

but it's hard for me to imagine a Belle fan feeling happy about everyone disregarding Belle's feelings. Are there any Belle fans who aren't Rumbelle fans? If so, I'd love to hear from you about this.

 

I'm a Belle fan who cannot STAND Rumbelle. For me, both Rumple and the ship bring Belle down and makes her look incredibly stupid (also barring the fact that it's the epitome of an abusive relationship). Rumple has zero disregards for her feelings, except for when he does something that could piss her off and dump him....again. The ship was never about Belle, it was always about Rumple. Even back during SD - which, I'll admit, I loved - it was more about the fact that Rumple finally found someone who loved him despite the curse, and knew there was a good man underneath. Because honestly, what does Belle get out of the relationship? It's very telling that she shines in scenes with others, especially when the topic is NOT Rumple. It also bugs me that no one else on the show gives a crap about her, because the people who did are no longer on the show. That's why I have always wanted Belle with Ruby, or maybe even Jefferson or Mulan.

 

Belle is even just a prop to a majority of the Rumbelle shippers as well.

Edited April 9, 2016 by Geeni