Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[KingOfHearts]

I was thinking Jafar would be a good pick for her, since genies can't seem to resist her. That would be weird since her mom and him were partners for a long time in real life.

[Shanna Marie]

Regina may not have done anything to Robin's person but she split up his family.

Didn't he mention recognizing Snow White because they were on Wanted posters together (or maybe she recognized him for that reason)? So Regina may not have caught him and done anything to him, but it's likely her people were after him and made his life difficult. And that likely means he was fighting against her or targeting her in some way. Marian certainly had strong opinions about her. He was wary of her when meeting her for the first time in the Enchanted Forest. That's why it's weird that when he meets her for the first time in Storybrooke, with no memories of having met her in the Missing Year, instead of acting like he did when he first met her, he goes straight to the "you're not evil, you're bold and audacious!" line. At that point, he didn't even remember her rescuing Roland from the flying monkey. He's meeting for the first time, as far as he knows, the evil queen who destroyed the kingdom with a curse and had him on Wanted posters, and all he does is flirt, stare at her ass and suggest having a drink?

[kili]

So yeah, I really need for Regina's love interest to be someone who had no previous dealings with her whatsoever.

 

I could actually get behind Regina eventually in a relationship with somebody from the EF and even somebody who was a hero, but I want to see some struggling first. I want Regina to have to prove that she is no longer a villain.

 

That's the problem with Robin. Here we have a guy that fights oppression as one of his core values and he starts hitting on the EVIL Queen (as far as he knows at that point) because she's got a great looking ass?  Then later, the fact that she killed his wife gives him no pause? Wouldn't it have been interesting for him to have to spend a while getting to know that she has changed and making peace with the woman she is now and deciding to give her a chance to redeem herself? Instead, he's in insta-love and she is the one that needs to be convinced to give it a go.

 

At least with Snow, she knew Regina before she was full on evil, feels somewhat responsible for the evil, is ever optimistic, apparently kidnaps babies herself and has watched as Regina proved herself not to be so evil. Robin, for all intents and purposes, met somebody who was legendarily evil and decided to hit on her. Who does that?

 

Robin doesn't behave like a normal human being. Everybody on the show is a bit off the mark, but he's in another hemisphere. And in writing him that way, they missed some interesting stories, IMO. Although, it would have been a bit of a re-hash of what went between Charming and Hook, at least this time it would be between romantic interests instead of being all fatherly suspicious of the pirate.

[Camera One]

I don't know why, but I never really felt like Regina needed a love interest at this point in the series. I thought the show would have spent a lot more time with Henry being her "true love" and how they could rebuild that relationship after he got new memories of Emma being his mom who raised him in New York. 

 

Regina needed to work through her redemption before any inkling of a romance emerged, and there was already plenty to work with in that department.  Heck, Henry holding out against her for longer, and Regina working for his respect and love could have been a full-season or more endeavor.  

 

At the end of Season 2, I felt that Emma also didn't really need a love interest.  I know the Emma/Hook stuff eventually worked out well, but there were many other avenues to explore Emma's character and her relationships with her parents.  She had so many things to work through, without the need for a romantic subplot.  

 

In some ways, I think the love triangle stuff in S2/S3 was a crutch that the writers leaned on for Regina and Emma because they didn't know how or had no interest in exploring the deeper character issues and relationships.  Meanwhile, for a couple like Snow and Charming who already had romance, they are now having to rely on newly manufactured secrets and lies, again to avoid exploring their deeper character issues and relationships.  

Edited April 10, 2015 by Camera One

[The Cake is a Pie]

I don't object in any way to Regina getting a love interest, or even a True Love, I only object because it's ROBIN HOOD, of legendary Robin Hood and Maid Marian lore. NO. It's Robin Hood and Maid Marian always.

Was there no other fairytale character they could have hooked Regina up with? The Pied Piper? Humpty Dumpty? Hercules? Prince Caspian of Narnia? Tin Man? Galahad? Mowgli? Blackbeard? The Kraken? The Butcher? The Baker? The Candlestick Maker?

Edited April 10, 2015 by The Cake is a Pie

[Camera One]

The Tin Man would have been interesting, since he had no heart, but he wouldn't be able to handle Regina flameballing that painting of birds.  The Pied Piper might be appropriate with Regina's weird obsession for children regardless of whether they had parents or not.  Graham was basically Mowgli.  The Candlestick Maker could be ironic when she finds out he made that very special candle that killed Cora.  

Edited April 10, 2015 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

Pretty sure the Pied Piper is dead. The butcher is Bo Peep. Not sure of her orientation, but that might be interesting. They could hook her up with Galavant. He was on a hero's journey to save his true love, the Evil Queen, so we know he's into that.

[Zuleikha]

The Pied Piper was Pan, so no, that wouldn't have worked. The Tin Man is another good suggestion, though. There's the Oz connection, so he could be brought in 3B in some way to help with/connect with Zelena. He became the Tin Man because of a ruined love relationship, so he would work with Tink's "your ruined his life" (although the pixie dust thing would have been a little harder). His being famous for lacking a heart makes him seem poetically perfect for the Evil Queen. 

 

Too bad The Cake is a Pie wasn't in the writer's room to suggest him (although my suspicion is that the writers settled on Robin Hood simply because he'd already been introduced and they didn't want to come up with backstory/introduction for another character).

[Curio]

(although my suspicion is that the writers settled on Robin Hood simply because he'd already been introduced and they didn't want to come up with backstory/introduction for another character).

 

This is most likely the real reason. Although, what's sad is that when Robin was introduced in the Wonderland series, he actually had some potential to be an interesting character. I posted this quote in the Robin Hood thread, but figured I'd post it here too since it applies to his relationship with Regina:

 

“The one thing we do not mess about with is magic. It’s dangerous, no matter how valuable it is or how much wealth it can bring you. It’s never worth the consequences.”

Robin says that line to Will when they're going to steal from Maleficent's castle. Why haven't the writers explored that side of his character on the mother show? Isn't magic a huge part of Regina's character? Why hasn't Robin been suspicious about Regina's magic and everything it has brought her in Storybrooke? Her magic helped create the Dark Curse, which basically gave her her big expensive mansion, her powerful role as mayor in town, a nice car, and an expensive wardrobe. Doesn't that go against everything Robin stands for? "It’s dangerous, no matter how valuable it is or how much wealth it can bring you." Was he willing to overlook all of that just because she's hot and has a soft spot for kids?

 

It's as if the writers wanted Regina to be paired up with a really famous literary character, but then didn't even bother to think about how his morals would mesh with Regina's character/personality. Like some of you have already said, there are other characters they could have chosen from that would have been a much better match for Regina. (I particularly like the idea of the Tin Man.) If they wanted Regina to fall for a thief, why not go with Aladdin? At least in his Disney story he doesn't mind using magic to get what he wants (the magic lamp, the flying carpet, the genie, etc.) and he falls for the upper class girl who lives in the palace.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Curio

[Rumsy4]

Ever since Robin met Regina in Storybrooke, his personality seems to have done an volte-face. For instance:

 

-- He hit on and started dating a female Prince John archetype without any hesitation, when in the past he stood against such people. 

-- Lost all his former qualms about magic and wealth acquired through magic.

-- Decided to ditch his honor so he could sleep with another woman while his wife lay in a coma.

-- Did nothing to find a cure for his frozen wife, while in the past he had risked his life and limb to save her from death.

-- Was unhappy to see his wife return from the dead, when before he seemed to have cherished and loved her.

 

It's really odd that they would take a character who was already fleshed to a certain degree, strip him of all those characteristics (and personality in the process), and pair him up with the Evil Queen (sorry--Regina). Why not go for a completely new character? Where they trying to show that Robin's connection to Regina was strong enough to overcome anything, including the essence of his character? That doesn't make for a healthy relationship. Wouldn't it have been more interesting to show them being drawn to each other despite their differences, and slowly seeing each other's point of view and falling in love? I guess pixie-dust and insta-love made for a faster story-arc. 

Edited April 10, 2015 by Rumsy4

[OnceUponAJen]

^ It's puzzling because they definitely aren't fast-tracking Hook & Emma's relationship. I wonder why it wasn't more fleshed out than it has been between Robin/Regina.

Edited April 10, 2015 by OnceUponAJen

[Serena]

Because of Plot. They wanted to do the big "Marian comes back!" thing at the end of S3, and if they had developed OQ like CS they wouldn't have been far enough in their relationship for us to get 50 Shades of Regina's Pain.

[FabulousTater]

I ship Regina with a deep, dark dungeon cell full of rats. A more apropos match does not exist.

[Shanna Marie]

At the end of Season 2, I felt that Emma also didn't really need a love interest.  I know the Emma/Hook stuff eventually worked out well, but there were many other avenues to explore Emma's character and her relationships with her parents.  She had so many things to work through, without the need for a romantic subplot.

Aside from some of the initial stuff during the Neverland arc, what's worked for me with Emma and Hook is that it hasn't really been written as a romantic subplot. It really is more of an avenue to explore and develop Emma's character and give her a sounding board. Unfortunately, the way everything else has been written, Emma ended up rather isolated. Henry used to be her primary relationship when he was trying to get her to believe and accept her role as both Savior and as his mother, but now he's just about entirely focused on Regina and things have to get drastic for him to remember Emma exists. How long has it been since they've had a conversation about anything but Regina? Then Mary Margaret was her peer-type friend, but that's been dropped, as Snow is more focused on David, the baby, and Regina to think too much about Emma. Emma's had some interaction with David, but not serious character development stuff. And with her parents, there's the issue that her past is too emotionally charged for her to be able to work things out with them, since Snow tends to be offended when she brings it up. There's just so much baggage that Emma may have to unpack it all with someone else before she can deal with it with her parents. Supposedly she's now friends with Regina, but that so-called friendship is all about Regina and Regina's issues. They were doing shots over Regina losing her boyfriend, with no mention that Emma had just watched yet another boyfriend nearly dying right in front of her (though it would have been funny if she had mentioned that as a reason she wanted to drink, and Regina was just drunk enough to let slip something about Hook nearly getting his heart crushed being a repeat of Graham).

 

And that makes Hook necessary as a sounding board for Emma to vocalize her thoughts to. He has no stake in her past, so she can bring up things about her life without having to worry about hurting or offending him with the truth. I think we've learned more about her with him than we did in the previous three seasons. It may be frustrating for 'shippers, but their relationship isn't even being written as a romantic subplot. It's more like a friendship that includes kissing, without the romantic conflict that tends to come in romantic plots. We joke about which body part of his is getting cursed this week, but those stories end up not being the relationship roadblocks they seem to be initially. For instance, the kiss curse ended up not affecting their relationship much at all, given that an hour or so after she was furious at him about it, she was saving his life. It ended up being more of a vehicle for exploring her feelings about her heritage. Without the kiss curse and loss of her powers, we wouldn't have had the big "there's no place like home" revelation in which she noticed her powers had returned.

[Curio]

It may be frustrating for 'shippers, but their relationship isn't even being written as a romantic subplot. It's more like a friendship that includes kissing, without the romantic conflict that tends to come in romantic plots.

 

It may be frustrating for some shippers, but I'm totally loving it. I love slow-burn, friendship-first kind of romances. Those are the best kind of relationships in real life, too. Your significant other shouldn't have to be this huge hassle where you're constantly fighting with them or there's always some kind of drama to cause tension. I like the fact that Emma and Hook happen to be each others' best friend, who respect each other, but also just happen to make out a lot. (And hopefully they'll get past first base some time in the next decade...)

Edited April 10, 2015 by Curio

[YaddaYadda]

(And hopefully they'll get past first base some time in the next decade...)

 

I must be the only person who thinks they rounded the bases prior to 408.  That whole easy tiger, we got company sort of gave me pause.

 

The CS relationship is the one the writers seems to be the most invested in/taking the most care of.  It parallels Snowing's very closely, so there's that.

[Curio]

I must be the only person who thinks they rounded the bases prior to 408. That whole easy tiger, we got company sort of gave me pause.

 

DC;OS

 

(Doesn't count; Off screen)

[OnceUponAJen]

I must be the only person who thinks they rounded the bases prior to 408. That whole easy tiger, we got company sort of gave me pause.

The CS relationship is the one the writers seems to be the most invested in/taking the most care of. It parallels Snowing's very closely, so there's that.

I wouldn't be overly surprised if they had "rounded the bases" already. Offscreensville is a where a lot of the good stuff happens. Unless you're Regina.

[YaddaYadda]

DC;OS

 

(Doesn't count; Off screen)

So I'm think that we will need a list of acronyms before season 4 is out.  If there's anything on screen, I'm going to bank on

420 (Mother) because the whole reunion.  Guess it could happen before Emma goes on her road trip as well

 

Unless you're Regina.

Doesn't count if you're not Regina.

Edited April 10, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[mjgchick]

I just can't see them not already doing it. No one wants to get it on more than Emma. (Give her a place to bang show.) They spent six weeks doing what exactly?

[OnceUponAJen]

I just can't see them not already doing it. No one wants to get it on more than Emma. (Give her a place to bang show.) They spent six weeks doing what exactly?

Being chaperoned by Daddy Charming? Probably not. He's been more like "just don't tell me!"

[Shanna Marie]

It may be frustrating for some shippers, but I'm totally loving it. I love slow-burn, friendship-first kind of romances.

I'm loving it, too. I hate most TV relationships, but this one is working for me because it's been more about why they fit than about what's keeping them apart. Any conflict is the two of them against the world rather than with each other. I liked that the kiss curse ended up being barely a bump in the road, and while I'm annoyed that there was absolutely zero follow-up to the hand/stolen heart stuff, like her finding out what he'd done and telling him she doesn't care about the hand being missing or her showing that she was at all affected by him almost dying, that's preferable to the usual TV relationship trope of that temporarily breaking them up because she was angry about learning about it. I'm okay with externally imposed angst, like the idea of them maybe being separated and having to find each other, as long as no breakups are happening from within. I get bored with the TV relationship tropes of almost getting together only to be torn apart multiple times before they really do get together, then breaking up and making up repeatedly.

 

While their relationship has been slow-burn, on another level it came about quickly in that they moved rather rapidly from meeting to attraction to established couple instead of spending years in the unresolved sexual tension phase where they bickered a lot and kept nearly getting together before something happened to break them further apart, as happens way too often on TV. On a lot of shows, they'd have returned from the past to find some old lover of hers there (or maybe something they did in the past made Neal still be alive when they returned) before he had a chance to let her know he gave up his ship for her, dragging things out further. Then when she realized that she actually liked Hook better than old lover, Team Library would have heated up, and he'd be with Belle. And so forth.

[FurryFury]

Back to Regina (btw - sorry, don't buy CS as friends-first romance... way too much innuendo and belligerent sexual tension when they first met for that), I think having a villainous (not a muahaha villain, someone more grey with a hidden agenda) romance could have done wonders for her redemption arc, too. I mean, if this villain would be a major antagonist, she'd have to struggle with her feelings for him against doing the right thing, this is delicious drama right here, which could do a lot for her development. I think Robin being chosen for her LI is simply another symptom of the writers running out of ideas. It's clear by this point they have no idea what they're doing, which is frankly a common thing for long-running (more than 3 seasons) TV shows.

[Curio]

sorry, don't buy CS as friends-first romance... way too much innuendo and belligerent sexual tension when they first met for that

 

That kind of just depends on whether or not someone thinks sexual tension and friendship are mutually exclusive.

 

I think having a villainous (not a muahaha villain, someone more grey with a hidden agenda) romance could have done wonders for her redemption arc, too.

 

I'm not necessarily sure Regina needed a villainous character to help her redemption arc. I think Robin Hood could have worked in theory. Instead of their meet-cute being him saving her from the flying monkey, they could have had him stealing some items from her castle. He could have waxed poetic about how she has all of these expensive things she doesn't need while the rest of the land is suffering, and little by little, he could call her out on some of her biggest flaws. He could have acted as her reality-check mirror of sorts, where he's not afraid to call her out on her shit and she'd slowly open her eyes to recognizing that she truly needed to change. But instead, Robin basically praises Regina at every turn and she can't do any wrong.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Curio

[Rumsy4]

But instead, Robin basically praises Regina at every turn and she can't do any wrong.

 

That's sort of a requirement to be in a relationship with Regina. Regina surrounds herself with people who bolster up her self-worth and condone her victim-mentality. I do think that steady criticism can be counter-productive to someone who is on the redemption bend, but the positive reinforcement Regina gets from people is ridiculous! She needs to be with someone who can also challenge her in a positive way, like Hook does for Emma, and Charming for Snow (although Charming has been pretty wishy-washy recently). 

[Mari]

He could have waxed poetic about how she has all of these expensive things she doesn't need while the rest of the land is suffering, and little by little, he could call her out on some of her biggest flaws. He could have acted as her reality-check mirror of sorts, where he's not afraid to call her out on her shit and she'd slowly open her eyes to recognizing that she truly needed to change. But instead, Robin basically praises Regina at every turn and she can't do any wrong.

Regina has flaws?

 

Seriously, they couldn't do that.  In order to do that, they'd need to recognize the flaws they've given Regina, and I don't think they do.

 

I don't know if there's tons of stuff that they haven't figured out didn't get filmed and put onscreen, or if they just think she's adorable and perfect the way she is.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Mari

[Zuleikha]

He could have waxed poetic about how she has all of these expensive things she doesn't need while the rest of the land is suffering, and little by little, he could call her out on some of her biggest flaws.

If he met her when she was the Evil Queen, he couldn't have done that because we know how her story goes and it's not that she's redeemed by Robin Hood. If he met her that way during the Missing Year, it wouldn't work because Regina was working with Snow and Charming to help rebuild the Enchanted Forest/protect people from Zelena so there's no reason to believe she was hording wealth at the expense of the other residents. 

 

 

 

I don't know if there's tons of stuff that they haven't figured out didn't get filmed and put onscreen, or if they just think she's adorable and perfect the way she is.

Or they're like the sizable chunk of the audience who think Regina gets called out on her flaws just plenty, and so there is no problem that needs to be solved. 

Edited April 10, 2015 by Zuleikha

[Curio]

If he met her when she was the Evil Queen, he couldn't have done that because we know how her story goes and it's not that she's redeemed by Robin Hood. If he met her that way during the Missing Year, it wouldn't work because Regina was working with Snow and Charming to help rebuild the Enchanted Forest/protect people from Zelena so there's no reason to believe she was hording wealth at the expense of the other residents. 

 

Even though Regina probably wasn't purposely hoarding wealth at the expense of others during the missing year, she most likely still had some leftover expensive items lying around the castle that could have been stolen and given to the poor. Didn't Zelena take one of Regina's lavish dresses and try it on herself during the missing year? That kind of proves Regina still had some Evil Queen memorabila lying around. A nice hidden necklace here, a bejeweled dress there, etc. So I could have potentially seen Robin going after those rare remnants during the missing year and that's how they met. He would probably expect a fireball to get thrown at his head when she first catches him, but instead, a slightly reformed Regina lets him take the items, much to his surprise. I don't know why I'm even thinking about this so much since we can't go back and change stupid.

 

Or they're like the sizable chunk of the audience who think Regina gets called out on her flaws just plenty, and so there is no problem that needs to be solved. 

 

I'll take this to the Regina thread.

[Shanna Marie]

If he met her that way during the Missing Year, it wouldn't work because Regina was working with Snow and Charming to help rebuild the Enchanted Forest/protect people from Zelena so there's no reason to believe she was hording wealth at the expense of the other residents.

She gave him golden arrows, which would probably be pretty useless as arrows (gold is soft and heavy), so that's basically conspicuous consumption. There's no indication that she was heavily taxing the citizens during the missing year to pay for buying more stuff, but she had plenty of riches in her palace that had to have been obtained either by taking what was rightfully Snow's, by magic, or by taxation of her subjects.

 

The question is what Robin did with those arrows. The "real" Robin Hood would have sold them to have money to give to the poor to help them rebuild their lives after the curse. It's not clear what this version did with them. I don't recall him acting like "I could feed an entire village for a year with one of these!"

 

There were enough jewels lying around, and Regina was wearing enough bling, that there would have been opportunities for them to have met through him playing cat burglar or pickpocketing her. But, alas, it's true that we can't go back in time and fix stupid, and if we did manage to get Zelena's spell to work, I think we'd be better served by going all the way back to season 2, which would have sent the show in a different direction, so Robin wouldn't even have been an issue.

 

Lancelot might have made an interesting match for Regina, if they hadn't had Cora kill him (did they confirm his death, or was it just Cora pretending to be him and we didn't see the body?). He had the unrequited love thing going on in the stories, so he's available, and the ultra-pure and noble knight in self-imposed penance after betraying his best friend up against the former Evil Queen might have made an interesting clash before he helped guide her on the path to righteousness. The version on this show was underdeveloped enough that there was room to work with him.

[Curio]

The latest episode made me realize I do not care at all how the writers resolve any of this Regina/Robin nonsense, so I'm switching topics to a different relationship: Will and Belle. I stumbled across a gif of Will saying a line from the Wonderland series, and it made me think about why the writers thought he and Belle would be good together.

 

 

For the dozen or so of us who actually watched the Wonderland series, we know that Will's true love in Ana, and in fact, he's saying that line to Ana's face. So what in the world does he see in Belle? Why haven't we seen more than a minute of their relationship? Why did the writers feel the need to make them each others' rebounds? Belle is a nice, normal woman (and no offense, but a bit boring as well), so what exactly does Will see in her? He likes to go for the girls who aren't nice and normal. It's ridiculous that Zelena's monologue to Rumple in the hospital that spanned across a commercial break has been given more screen time than Will's current relationship and any explanation about what happened to Ana or how he ended up with Belle.

[Mari]

So what in the world does he see in Belle? Why haven't we seen more than a minute of their relationship? Why did the writers feel the need to make them each others' rebounds? Belle is a nice, normal woman (and no offense, but a bit boring as well), so what exactly does Will see in her?

And what does Belle see in Will?

 

I mean, she was burned.  She was badly, badly burned.  She put all her faith and trust in someone who manipulated her, fooled her, and occasionally made her complicit in his terrible behavior.

 

Now, I watched Wonderland, and I liked it;  I liked Will, too, very much.  And in Wonderland, you learn that Will is tenderhearted, honorable, fiercely loyal, and nonmalicious.  He gets (well, by proxy) wishes, and he wishes for things like "Beer for everyone, because we should all have a drink together!"

 

But shouldn't Belle be more  suspicious and cautious?  This is a guy was found drunk after breaking into the library.  From things let slip in Wonderland, he didn't seem to be making his living in Storybrooke through a job, and he was the Knave of Hearts.  That's got something of a reputation.

 

I mean, I can't imagine the Will from Wonderland doing anything to hurt Belle.  But shouldn't Belle be wary enough that she's either not dating, or dating someone more like Jiminy Cricket?  (Not necessarily actually him, but obviously good-natured, harmless,  and intentioned.)

[Souris]

Honestly, they had two spare characters they didn't know what to do with, so they stuck them together.

[Curio]

They also got the short end of the stick by being "good guys." If they were villains, we'd know every little detail about how they got together, how they feel about each other's villainous exes, and whether or not they see this as just a short fling or a long term relationship.

 

Heh. You know, if the show really wants to go meta, Belle and Will would go off on an adventure to find Adam & Eddy and they'd force them to write actual meaningful plot lines for the non-villainous characters on the show.

[KAOS Agent]

Eh. Belle is still married and just enjoying a nice guy. She told Rumpel as Hook that Will makes her smile. They're hardly in some sort of epic True Love relationship. They are just enjoying each other's company because for the moment, it makes them happy. Since they aren't going to make the two of them a big love story, there's no need to really develop them beyond seeing them spend some time together and enjoying themselves. 

[tennisgurl]

"Hey, this good looking man isn't doing much!"

"Look, this good looking woman isn't doing much!"

"We should put them together!"

 

Seriously though. I loved Ana and Will. They got their all important happy ending. Why is he here? What is the POINT? I love Will, I miss seeing him, but if he`s here, I want him to have something to do besides hang out with Belle and make Rumple jealous! 

[Curio]

Eh. Belle is still married and just enjoying a nice guy. She told Rumpel as Hook that Will makes her smile. They're hardly in some sort of epic True Love relationship. They are just enjoying each other's company because for the moment, it makes them happy. Since they aren't going to make the two of them a big love story, there's no need to really develop them beyond seeing them spend some time together and enjoying themselves. 

 

But what about plots focused on friendship? Just because two people aren't super special True Loves doesn't mean I don't want to know about their stories. Personally, I don't like how the show has shifted towards only focusing on the main couples. I'd love to see more scenes between Hook and Charming, Belle and Will (since yes, they're more like friendly make out buddies than actual boyfriend and girlfriend), Emma and Snow, Hook and Belle, heck -- Henry and Rumple. Is there no need to develop those relationships either just because they aren't going to be big love stories?

[Camera One]

Unfortunately, A&E's answers would go something like:

- We've done Hook and Belle.  rewatch the 4B premiere again and you will see!

- We have a really meaty storyline going on here that's about Emma and Snow The Egg Snatcher.  We explored it in "Heart of Gold".  Also in 4A, "The Snow Queen", we explored Snow The Fearful Parent, aka Gerda 2.0.  

- We spent an entire half season of Henry and Rumple working with one another!

Edited April 15, 2015 by Camera One

[The Cake is a Pie]

Belle really does not need to be in any sort of relationship a mere six weeks after banishing her husband out of town, after finding out he had been lying to her throughout their entire marriage.

I don't know why this show is so adverse to developing platonic friendships.

[KingOfHearts]

 

 

"Hey, this good looking man isn't doing much!"

"Look, this good looking woman isn't doing much!"

"We should put them together!"

 "You get a love interest! And you get a love interest! Everybody gets a love interest!"

 

"Well, we don't have any plots for Will and we need Rumpbelle angst..." Thus, Scarlet Beauty was born.

Edited April 15, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

But what about plots focused on friendship? Just because two people aren't super special True Loves doesn't mean I don't want to know about their stories. Personally, I don't like how the show has shifted towards only focusing on the main couples.

I am not opposed to including relationships, but I am bothered by how far they're going in pairing the spares and the way they make having a romantic relationship the be-all, end-all.

 

So instead of Regina actually taking any time to explore her happy ending with Henry -- considering that he was taken to Neverland before they were fully reconciled, and then there was the missing year and he only barely got his memories of her back -- she gets sidetracked by Robin and decides that because she can't have a boyfriend, that means she doesn't get a happy ending. And everyone seems to agree with her. Now their entire relationship is focused around helping her find her happy ending. She doesn't seem to notice or care what's going on in his life. Not that anything else seems to be.

 

And then Zelena's grand revenge plan is ... to steal Regina's boyfriend. Never mind that Zelena previously had been shown to be jealous of Regina's wealth and power and that her previous plan was to go back in time and disrupt (or prevent) Regina's life and take her place in Rumple's scheme. No, when she does go back in time, she decides to take the place of Regina's boyfriend's wife and travel back to the future to take away Regina's boyfriend (and leave Regina with her wealth and power and feeling like a hero for doing the right thing in spite of her boyfriend saying he chose her).

 

Then we have the Will and Belle pairing, which I think actually undermined things dramatically. We haven't seen enough of them together to care. Last time we saw him, he was married. She just ditched her husband and gained a clue. It's hard for me to imagine a reason he would be getting into a romance (especially since we had verified True Love, a great redemption arc, and nothing to fill in the blanks), and it's a very bad idea for her to jump into a romance so quickly. The whole thing seemed designed to make Rumple jealous, but didn't they already have that right there, and probably in a more powerful sense, with her friendship with Hook? Rumple didn't know or care about Will, but Hook is his oldest and deepest enemy. He's the person Rumple lost his first wife to. He's the person his son ended up spending his extended teen years with. It wouldn't matter that Hook only has eyes for Emma and that Belle only sees him as a friend. The two of them spending time together and looking close is far more likely to drive Rumple insane than Belle kissing Will. It would be salt in the wound for her to be able to see and acknowledge that Hook really has changed in spite of her having learned so recently that Rumple had duped her because then Rumple would be forced to see that Hook really had changed when Rumple was never able to.

 

I might not even mind the focus on romance if they actually developed the relationships. We still don't know why Robin and Regina want to be together other than pixie dust and crypt sex. They have absolutely nothing in common. With Belle and Will, they put the most value on the surprise of seeing them together, which means we still have nothing invested in that relationship. It came out of nowhere, and we've seen nothing of it. Even with the better developed relationship between Hook and Emma, I think about 90 percent of that is in the acting, since really just about all they get to do is have their obligatory kissing or hugging scene per episode, and sometimes we get a little meat in the dialogue during the kissing or hugging, like him telling her she's his happy ending or her telling him she's going to think the best of him. They've hardly spent any substantial time together since the beginning of the season. Even their big date episode was mostly focused on him and Rumple, not the two of them together.

 

And then there are the other relationships we don't really know about. What about Hook and Henry? They were growing close while Henry didn't have his memories, but we don't really know how things are going since then. Henry told Emma he wasn't okay with her dating Hook but wanted her to be happy (which still makes no sense). Barely an episode later, they apparently spent the entire day together sailing offscreen. How did that go? Were they awkward or friendly? During the Shattered Sight spell, Henry set a trap for Hook and called him a filthy pirate. But what does Henry really think? Has he wanted to know the real story about his father now that he knows the truth and Hook is free to talk about it? He may actually have memories of Neal now and isn't relying entirely on Hook, but still, Hook's one of the few people still alive who can talk to him about what his father was like when he was about his age or who can tell him about his other grandmother. Henry's been so caught up in Operation Mongoose that we have no sense of how his other relationships are going. There's been no follow-up on what he thinks about Emma and Hook now that they've been dating for a while. We haven't even seen a "family" outing with the three of them. What does he think about his baby uncle? Has he even spoken to his maternal grandparents in ages? How does he feel about what Rumple was doing with the hat, etc.? How does he feel about Belle kicking Rumple out of town? Not that I'm campaigning for more Henry, but I find myself worried about the kid, locked away in Regina's office all the time.

[KAOS Agent]

We haven't even seen a "family" outing with the three of them.

 

Yeah, we did. They were having dinner at Granny's and Henry spent the entire time staring at the book with a magnifying glass. Henry is entirely obsessed with Operation Mongoose. I'm thinking that that isn't going to end too well for him since we've already identified the many, many problems with the thinking of using the author as a shortcut to fix your problems. 

Edited April 15, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[Shanna Marie]

They were having dinner at Granny's and Henry spent the entire time staring at the book with a magnifying glass.

I'm not sure I count that, since Hook and Emma were sitting together at a table and Henry was across the room at the counter. It was more like the aftermath of the party, everyone else had left, and they were hanging around, waiting for Henry to notice that everyone had left. (Or was there another scene I've forgotten?) For it to count as a family, all three of them would have to interact. The scene I'm thinking of came across as the obligatory Captain Swan kiss/hug/cuddle scene, not a mom, son, potential future stepdad (and sort of step-granddad) starting to navigate what might become a family scene.

 

Considering that they made a big deal in 3B, repeatedly, that what Henry really wanted was family -- not just two plates on the table for major holidays -- it's sad that he's now surrounded by family and extended family-like people, and yet he's stuck alone with Regina or just plain alone most of the time. At least he was part of the search party this week. Not that we got a word of dialogue there to see how he fit in with the family or what he thought of the revelation that the Author isn't supposed to manipulate events, which meant that Operation Mongoose was a bust, a bad idea, and even considered a crime.

[FabulousTater]

Yeah, we did. They were having dinner at Granny's and Henry spent the entire time staring at the book with a magnifying glass. Henry is entirely obsessed with Operation Mongoose. I'm thinking that that isn't going to end too well for him since we've already identified the many, many problems with the thinking of using the author as a shortcut to fix your problems.

I’m hoping that Henry spends so much time sitting and staring at the storybook that he starts growing roots and turns into a tree. Then Regina can plant him in a pot and when he’s gone past sapling stage she can plant him in the ground next to her precious apple tree in the backyard.

Wut? It could happen. Have you not watched this show? Marian was Zelena all this time, so don’t tell me Henry can’t turn into a tree. They can plant him somewhere where he never gets in the way again and we never have to listen to another stupid words that comes out of his mouth. Someone just has to remember to water him every once in a while. Or set a sprinkler timer or something…

[Camera One]

Henry sitting there staring at the book, and 90% of dialogue with Regina is solely for exposition.  The writers don't care about him as a character, nor about any of the relationships that he has, which is symptomatic of how little they care about the Emma/Henry/Snow/Charming family subunit overall.  I also don't count Henry sitting across the room staring at the book to be quality time with Emma.  When was the last time they had a conversation?  Was it when her powers were out of control in the woods and she hurt him by mistake?  When was the last time Henry got to talk to his grandparents.  Oh yeah, when they were lying to him.  The writers don't know/care that they've got characters with so much potential.  They're too busy giggling over Zelena, Maleficent's egg baby and The Rogue Author.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

I wasn't saying that Henry had quality time with his mom/Hook, just that we've seen them together in what should have been a family moment and the writers made it all about the book. Incidentally, I don't think that was a post-party dinner. They were supposed to meet Snowing there for a meal but they never showed because they were off doing something to cover their asses. The last time we actually saw Emma have a meaningful conversation with her son was in "White Out" I think. She never even got a decent conversation with him after her wonky magic blew his ass across the forest. 

[Camera One]

Well, we got that rewarding scene with everyone watching fireworks.  As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words.

[Curio]

Sorry to veer topics again (and for bringing up a dead horse), but the topic of Graham's death came up in a couple threads, and I figured my response fit better in here.

 

Here's the thing that I hate about the whole Emma-doesn't-know-who-killed-Graham situation -- it would be one thing if it was just a writing blunder where the writers expected us to believe Emma and Regina already resolved that issue off camera and we just have to deal with it now. Fine, okay. I've sadly had to accept that Hook's magical bean adventure and the Jolly Roger trade all happened off screen, along with countless other important scenes over the seasons. But what makes the Graham situation so much worse is that Adam & Eddy have repeatedly come out and said in interviews that "Emma doesn't know Regina killed Graham, but if she did know, Emma would probably be upset about it." Why even put that out into the media if you're never going to address it on screen? That's just going to make the fans even more upset, because apparently, this is still a big issue for Emma if the creators of the show have to confirm that piece of information on Twitter and in other entertainment website interviews. (There's also the shoelace on Emma's wrist and her confession to Hook if there were any doubts about Emma's feelings.)

 

Now the writers have gone and made both Emma and Regina look bad in this situation. Emma looks bad for not putting two-and-two together and realizing that her new "friend" is actually the person who murdered her close friend fairly recently in the show's timeline. Regina comes off looking bad because she's either: a) purposely keeping this secret from Emma, and if 4B is anything to go by, Emma hates it when people keep secrets from her, or b) she doesn't even think to bring it up because he's just Dead Person #57 on her list of people she's murdered and forgotten about. Both of those options make Regina look really bad on paper, and it also makes her mission for a happy ending (in which Emma is gladly helping her) look a bit fishy.

 

So I can see why the writers have purposely avoided the issue. It's clear they didn't think through the repercussions of how serious Graham's death would be when they decided to do it in Season 1, and they're so fixated on Regina's happy ending quest now that they're willing to erase part of their own history to finish this plot. If the writers finally ever bring it up however, I honestly don't think Emma could be close friends with Regina again. Probably cordial co-parents for Henry's sake and occasional brunch get-togethers for Snow's sake, but I couldn't see them hanging out one-on-one for fun. Maybe magical lessons if a villain is in town, but no kale salads and root beers. Emma's crazy guilt complex would kick in and she'd feel partially responsible for Graham's death because the only* reason he died is because he dared to have feelings for Emma. If Emma wasn't in the picture, maybe he would still be alive. Wouldn't that knowledge drive Emma crazy? That her very existence is the reason why a kind man who didn't deserve to die is now gone forever? I don't know how Emma could ever go back to being close buddies with Regina like she is now after learning that piece of information. Maybe the show will surprise me and they'll actually go there, but I doubt it.

 

The sad thing is, I can picture Adam or Eddy reading this and thinking, "Why are you so hung up about that one silly murder that happened a billion years ago? You should be happy that our show is putting two strong female characters together in a literally magical friendship! TV needs more female friendships!" Listen, I'm all for more female friendships in TV and movies, but I'm sorry...I just can't get on board this one where one party murdered the other person's friend out of jealousy* and kept that secret for years. (That's not even including the other events between the Mills and the Charmings that have gone down over the past four seasons.) Apparently I'm just stuck in a Season 1 headspace, because I refuse to forget Graham and really miss the days of the awesome Emma/Mary Margaret friendship.

 

*Edit: Okay, Regina's jealousy isn't the only reason she murdered Graham. She was also willing to kill him because it meant that she got to keep up her Storybrooke charade where no one remembered their Enchanted Forest identities for a couple months longer. But then everyone did remember anyways. Poor Graham.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Curio

[Zuleikha]

Emma's crazy guilt complex would kick in and she'd feel partially responsible for Graham's death because the only reason he died is because he dared to have feelings for Emma.

Isn't the reason that Graham died because Regina knew (somehow) that he regained his memories? Which yes, happened because of his feelings for Emma but that's a bit more indirect. If it were just about jealousy and Graham were still cursed, Regina could have used her control of Graham's heart to sabotage the relationship, but she couldn't let him live once he'd broken free of the curse. 

[Curio]

Isn't the reason that Graham died because Regina knew (somehow) that he regained his memories? Which yes, happened because of his feelings for Emma but that's a bit more indirect.

 

Yes, the memories was also a big issue for Regina, but I think it was a combination of both things. Either way, the point I was trying to make is that the friendship and the relationship between Emma and Graham is what triggered his memories, which ultimately lead him to his death. So yes - his feelings for Emma became his downfall. Perhaps I can add an asterisk into my post and point out that Regina also wanted to keep her secret Dark Curse ruse going on longer and that couldn't happen with Graham remembering things, but if Emma ever finds out, I somehow doubt that detail would change her feelings drastically.

[Shanna Marie]

I honestly don't think Emma could be close friends with Regina again. Probably cordial co-parents for Henry's sake and occasional brunch get-togethers for Snow's sake, but I couldn't see them hanging out one-on-one for fun.

Though when you really think about it, would you be willing to co-parent with someone you knew cold-bloodedly murdered an innocent man not too long ago? It's hard enough to imagine being willing to co-parent with someone you knew framed your mother for murder, was willing to destroy the whole town (but didn't go through with it) and tried to have you killed as a newborn, but most of that stuff was kind of abstract (well, not the framing, but at least no one actually died there, since Rumple didn't kill Kathryn).

 

Emma's crazy guilt complex would kick in and she'd feel partially responsible for Graham's death because the only* reason he died is because he dared to have feelings for Emma. If Emma wasn't in the picture, maybe he would still be alive.

And that's why Henry's perfectly okay with Regina and obsessing over getting her a happy ending thing is weird because Henry did know Regina killed Graham, and he distanced himself from Emma because he was afraid of what Regina would do to her.

 

By the way, I think that right there is a good indication that Regina didn't just kill Graham to keep him from getting his real memories back. It was shown as very much a rash act of "if I can't have you, no one will." It's not as though Emma would have believed his memories -- she didn't believe the things he was already saying about having no heart, and would anyone else in town have believed him? The core issue was control. Regina was losing something she felt was hers to Emma, and Henry was afraid about what she'd do if she thought she was losing him to Emma.