Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[HoodlumSheep]

I thought she did. Didn't she get kind of teary-eyed when listening to it, even if she had no idea why he was calling her? Or did I just make that up in my head?

[Shanna Marie]

Does anyone remember if Belle ever listened to Rumple's phone call to her in Season 2?

You mean the one when he was dying of poison? I thought she was actually on the phone with him. It was just that because she didn't remember him, she was all, "Um, yeah, that's nice."

[Curio]

Okay, thanks. A lot of my Season 2 memory is fuzzy. (Can you blame me?) That actually gives me a little bit of hope then that Emma will listen to the voice mail.

Edited November 18, 2014 by Curio

[kili]

I kind of hope that Rumple just took her phone and tossed it somewhere at the shop ... where Belle will find it and return it to her.

 

Henry is working in the shop. He is sure to recognize his mother's phone when he finds it in the waste paper bin he's taking out to the garbage.

 

Or the cloud is good too. It would be nice if some modern day magic saved the day.

[ParadoxLost]

I was thinking about how it would have worked out had Regina gone into that tavern and met Robin. He said he was a shiftless drunken thief at the time. How would Regina, who was raised a royal and whom we've seen repeatedly put down those of lower classes/economic backgrounds, deal with living life in a tent always on the run?

 

Given that Regina doesn't reinforce Robin's better qualities, I think its more likely that they would have conspired to kill her husband and Robin would have become Evil Consort.

[Shanna Marie]

The possibilities for a great moment from her hearing that message are so many that the writers would have to be idiots not to have that moment. However, I may have answered my own question with that statement.

They probably won't have time for it because there are all those important scenes of people telling Regina and Robin that their adulterous relationship behind the back of his frozen wife is totally cool and nothing at all to be ashamed of and actually something really romantic and worthy of a happy ending that they should hope for that they need to fit in.

 

I was thinking about how it would have worked out had Regina gone into that tavern and met Robin. He said he was a shiftless drunken thief at the time.

You know, it's funny that we were commenting on this last week, and then the show comes out and says it, but I still don't think the writers realize what they're saying, that Regina's "soulmate" was a shiftless, drunken thief.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I was thinking about how it would have worked out had Regina gone into that tavern and met Robin. He said he was a shiftless drunken thief at the time.

 

Outlaw Queen doesn't work, even on paper. Regina is a woman of high standards with many, many demands. She bleeds royalty and wants power. Robin can't give her any of that. We saw this in the Missing Year - his lower class position annoys her, and she insults him because of it. In every relationship I ask, "What does one lover have to offer to the other?" Frankly with Regina and Robin, I don't think either have anything to offer each other... except crypt sex.

 

(I thought Roland was going to be a major selling point for Regina, but he's just offscreen furniture now.)

Edited November 19, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Faemonic]

Outlaw Queen doesn't work, even on paper. Regina is a woman of high standards with many, many demands. She bleeds royalty and wants power. Robin can't give her any of that. We saw this in the Missing Year - his lower class position annoys her, and she insults him because of it. In every relationship I ask, "What does one lover have to offer to the other?" Frankly with Regina and Robin, I don't think either have anything to offer each other... except crypt sex.

(I thought Roland was going to be a major selling point for Regina, but he's just offscreen furniture now.)

Regina wasn't always like that. She was ready to run off with the stable boy. The slogan for Outlaw Queen was supposedly "second chances": Regina to find love again after Daniel's death, and Robin to find love again after Marian's death. But the thing is, if that's the only criteria, then that could then apply to anyone. Regina after Daniel's death and Hook after Milah's death. Robin after Marian's death and Ruby after Peter's death. Or Regina and Mulan. Or Robin and the dad of Hansel and Gretel!

I don't like to measure relationships with "what does one lover have to offer the other?" but yeah I wonder if something maybe more specific traits would have been the key to real romantic chemistry.

I thought Roland fulfilling the little boy shaped hole in Regina's heart would be the thing, too... but nope! She's totally over the jealous possessiveness of having to share Henry and not angsting anymore over the year she missed where Henry grew half a foot and now looks like about 17 years old.

Edited November 19, 2014 by Faemonic

[Mari]

Regina wasn't always like that. She was ready to run off with the stable boy. The slogan for Outlaw Queen was supposedly "second chances": Regina to find love again after Daniel's death, and Robin to find love again after Marian's death. But the thing is, if that's the only criteria, then that could then apply to anyone. Regina after Daniel's death and Hook after Milah's death. Robin after Marian's death and Ruby after Peter's death. Or Regina and Mulan. Or Robin and the dad of Hansel and Gretel!

I don't like to measure relationships with "what does one lover have to offer the other?" but yeah I wonder if something maybe more specific traits would have been the key to real romantic chemistry.

I thought Roland fulfilling the little boy shaped hole in Regina's heart would be the thing, too... but nope! She's totally over the jealous possessiveness of having to share Henry and not angsting anymore over the year she missed where Henry grew half a foot and now looks like about 17 years old.

It might not be "What do they have to offer?" But "What needs does this relationship fulfill?" and "What drawbacks does this relationship have?"

 

She was in love with Daniel, who was a stable boy.  However, she was very young, and very sheltered in many ways.  Running away and living on love is a whole lot more romantic-sounding before you've had a real-world grounding in things like "How do we pay rent?"  "What do you mean we can't afford a doctor?"  "But these new dresses were absolutely beautiful, and this one has a stain on it.  What do you mean I have to cancel the order?"

 

It was not a love that had withstood things like Daniel was a stable boy, who would not be able to afford to support Regina in the way she was raised to expect to live, Regina, who would likely not have been able to get much of a job or had much of an inheritance after Cora made sure Regina was financially cut off for scuttling Cora's plans.  Would it have lasted through the realities of a newly jobless and inheritanceless couple?  Maybe.  We don't know.  Cora killed him.

 

But since then, Regina has become a whole lot more demanding, and she's someone now who belittles people who do not have her financial means.  When you combine that with him being not only poor, but, well, such a  . . . yeah.  I don't have a word I can use for it.  Fill in the blank with the word of your choice.

 

Maybe if she were paired with someone who stood up to her, and challenged her to be better--while obviously expecting she was capable of it. 

[Amerilla]

But then, instead of keeping the normal pace, we have the stupid hand plot and the blackmail and now the stolen heart. And this is not an organic evolution. It's angst for the sake of angst. It's putting contrived obstacles in their way instead of exploring the relationship in an adult way.

 

The type of organic evolution you're talking about simply can't happen. Not just for Emma and Hook, but for any of the characters.

 

When you boil it down to the bones, these are not actually relationships. The show barely pretends they are. David, Belle, Hook and Robin are narrative props that exist only to prompt emotional growth in the lead characters. It's given the gloss of "romance," but all the pairings could just as easily be platonic (or imaginary) and still get the job done. With less potential for crypt sex. 

 

As characters, Belle and Hook and Robin (and Charming to a different degree) have two primary functions:

 

1) to assure their Lead Love that, "No, really, honeybun, you're Awesome Ice Cream topped with Angelic Whipped Cream and the Rainbow Sprinkles of True(ish) Love" and,

 

2) to give their Lead Love angst when they are inevitably captured/shoved down a portal/de-hearted/cursed/given amnesia/reunited with a dead lover/get fed up with this bullshit and storm off for an episode.

 

But it's all about what they can do for the leads, not what the leads can do for them. Sure, they might get a kiss or a midnight wedding or a quick shag on mommy's coffin, but that's about it.

 

Their growth (or regression) as characters are always based on the needs of the lead or the plot - which is why Hook can be an abandoned child when that's what Emma's story needs and have beloved brother when that's what a story about saving Emma's father needs, or why every backstory on Belle or David can emphasize how they don't self-doubt, right up until the plot requires backstories where they're virtually crippled with self-doubt. They can play Lassie every once in a while ("What's that Hook? Emma fell down the well? Good boy! Go sit over there!"), but they're almost always left of the periphery where there's more than one lead gathered in a scene. They never get to be the hero - sorry, Belle - because their job is to help your Emmas and Reginas and Golds and Snows love and rescue themselves.
 
None of this is meant as a diss to Colin or Emilie or Josh or Sean. They all seems like wonderful, funny, talented human beings, and they're all doing the best they can with the really uneven material and direction they're given. And I'm not throwing shade on anyone for shipping any pairing, or wanting to see the show treat these like actual, meaningful relationships between equally matched and weighted characters. (Believe me, I have my ships too.) Personally, I just find the show less frustrating when I try to look at the scaffolding and not the rather tatty fabric they're draping over it.

[KingOfHearts]

Opposites can attract, and a royal falling in love with a commoner is far from unheard of in the fairytale genre, but there are some critical roadblocks that hinder Outlaw Queen from doing so. Regina isn't some trapped princess looking for adventure from a dashing thief - she's a snobby tyrant who murders peasants for fun. (Including Robin's wife.) And Robin isn't some commoner wishing to win the hearts of the royalty - his pledge for life is to steal from them, and his entire code rests on antagonizing the very people Regina represents. They're like the opposite of Aladdin and Jasmine. By definition they just don't work, because not only are they different, but they're nemeses. 

 

Neither of them are built to compromise for the other's sake.

Edited November 19, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

I simply can't see Regina being happy living in a tent with Robin. Marian gave up her house and lived in the forest for the sake of her family, even if she didn't love it. I'm not saying everyone can live comfortably in reduced circumstances. Nor even that Regina should. But if Robin wants to be with Regina, he would have to leave the Merry Men, and move in into her house, which symbolizes wealth and affluence (and used to symbolize oppression and Dark Magic). That is the antithesis of all he used to stand for. I guess he got used to living in a castle back in the Enchanted Forest during the missing year... He would be giving up being an honorable bandit so he can be--what? Regina's consort? What is his identity outside of the Merry Men and Regina? 

Edited November 19, 2014 by Rumsy4

[KingOfHearts]

 

he would have to leave the Merry Men

So what do the Merry Men think of all of this? Even if making tacos is on the hush-hush (can't believe I just typed that), what's Robin's excuse for being away so frequently? What about Little John's and Roland's feelings? I don't see how they can respect him if he officiates his jointing with Regina. I wonder how they feel about Marian's probable death and the fact Robin is doing nothing about it...

Edited November 19, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

At the rate things are going, poor Roland is going to start thinking Little John is his dad. Which might not be such a bad thing.

 

This is all the problem with basing a relationship entirely on pixie dust and declaring a couple to be "soulmates" before the actors or characters have even shared a scene together and without considering any other reason these two people might be drawn to each other. It means there's nothing there, and they have to keep referring to Tinkerbelle to have any reason for them to be even bothering with each other.

 

But the thing that's really bugging me about this relationship isn't the crypt sex (though ew) or how bland it actually is, but the way the adultery is being treated on the show. If I had kids and had been doing the "watch as a family" thing, this would be the breaking point where we either stopped watching it or we had to start DVRing it, then the parents previewing and then watching together with liberal use of the FF button. What's weird is that this case is being treated entirely differently from other instances (more proof that Regina is the writers' Special Snowflake).

 

With Hook and Milah, that story was kind of in a bubble so we didn't get to hear what other characters thought, but they were both jerks to Rumple, while Rumple was pretty callous about his wife's unhappiness and ended up killing her and maiming Hook, so nobody came out of it looking good. In the long run, Hook has faced a lot worse consequences and criticism for "stealing" Milah than Rumple has for murdering her, so the takeaway message is pretty much "adultery is bad."

 

With David Nolan and Mary Margaret, they felt horrible and guilty, and everyone in town (including Regina) criticized their behavior and sided with Kathryn. Mary Margaret became the town pariah and was called horrible names and had "slut" painted on her car. She ended up being accused of Kathryn's murder, and even David dropped her at that point. The message was very clearly "adultery is bad" even though we knew that David and Snow were actually married to each other, that his marriage to Kathryn never actually happened, that Regina was manipulating the whole thing, and that when Kathryn decided to let them be together because the marriage wasn't much for her, either, Regina destroyed her letter and then plotted to have her killed.

 

But when it's Regina sleeping with a married man, their friends on both sides of the equation think it's a great idea, nothing to be ashamed of, and all about following your heart. Oddly, Regina's the only one who seems to have an issue with him being married and who even seems to remember that Marian exists (I guess they had to keep her halo untarnished), but Snow quickly tells her it's nothing to be ashamed of. That's where I'd have a problem as a parent, when Snow White is telling Regina that sleeping with a married man (whose wife is currently under a curse) is nothing to be ashamed of. How do you even begin to rationalize or explain that? We don't know if Snow knows Marian's background and that Regina was going to execute her for supporting Snow, but it makes it even tackier for Snow to be supporting Regina's relationship with Marian's husband.

 

And worse, Snow even brings up her own "adultery" incident, and none of the characters seem to remember what was really going on, that Snow was sleeping with her own husband and it only looked like adultery because of Regina's manipulations. There's not the tiniest shred of awareness from Regina to admit any responsibility there, no empathy at all in realizing that Mary Margaret had gone through what she was going through now in having a wife show up to interrupt a promising relationship (and that she had done it deliberately to Mary Margaret). No one seems to remember that Regina was one of Mary Margaret's worst critics and that she sided with Kathryn very publicly in what turned out to be a faked friendship -- even though Regina knew it was all a lie.

 

All of this makes it so difficult to stomach.

[ShadowFacts]

 

This town that spray painted people's cars when it was discovered that there might be something going on between Mary Margaret and David are ignoring this with Robin and Regina. Where is the moral indignation? Where are the pitchforks? Where's the spray paint? The only one that seems to see the moral dilemma is Regina.

I think the moral indignation is absent because it's Regina.  Anyone inclined to slut-shame her would be afraid of being on the business end of a fireball from her.  Snow can bring it up and be sympathetic, anybody else, they're wise to shut up.  I think it more likely we'd be hearing something from one of the Merry Men, maybe we still will.

 

 

But the thing that's really bugging me about this relationship isn't the crypt sex (though ew) or how bland it actually is, but the way the adultery is being treated on the show. If I had kids and had been doing the "watch as a family" thing, this would be the breaking point where we either stopped watching it or we had to start DVRing it, then the parents previewing and then watching together with liberal use of the FF button. What's weird is that this case is being treated entirely differently from other instances (more proof that Regina is the writers' Special Snowflake).

Honestly, as far as this being family fare, if my kids were still young we would have stopped watching long ago because of the violence.  Even though tame by many standards, there has been so much murder and brutality.  If families are still watching despite that, the Robin and Regina junk would be something to talk about.  Talking is underrated where tough situations in the media are concerned.  You can shield, censor, etc. the very graphic, awful violence, but actually discuss morality, too, as soon as it's reasonable to do.  Kids are exposed to lots of relationship permutations that affect them directly or indirectly, and talking about what they think about them can be positive. 

[scenicbyway]

I'm all for opposites attracting. Most good love stories have that element. But there has to be some sort of common goal or common ideal. She is the type of woman he would steal from or try to take out of power. He is the kind of guy she would lock up and eventually execute. Other than getting together with the larger group to fight whatever the half season big baddie is doing, they don't seem to have much that they are fighting for together.

 

She sits in the crypt and looks for solutions to Marian's freezing problem while he plays darts? Couldn't he have found the library sooner and looked for anti-freezing stuff? Couldn't he have gone with the groups searching for the Snow Queen? Couldn't he have been looking for housing for his son that wasn't a tent?

 

We get crypt sex, but my head was wondering what they see in each other. Why bother? I am not going to like a couple because I'm told that they are MFEO by a fairy. I want to see one and automatically think of the other one. I want to see one interact with another character and wonder what the other would say/think about that. I want it to make sense that they are together. I want to see both adapt and adjust to make themselves better for the other person - and that doesn't have to be a big production. I want Eric taking swimming lessons because he's in love with a mermaid. I want Emma reading a book on sailing so that she can understand Hook better. I want Belle to take a Cosmo quiz about whether or not her husband is evil. I want David to watch a documentary on birds.

 

This town that spray painted people's cars when it was discovered that there might be something going on between Mary Margaret and David are ignoring this with Robin and Regina. Where is the moral indignation? Where are the pitchforks? Where's the spray paint? The only one that seems to see the moral dilemma is Regina.  

Excellent post.  I'd say the pitchforks are missing because other than Snow, no one else knows about Regina and Robin's night in the crypt.  They had a very public scene in the premiere in front of the diner with Robin leaving with Marian, we also saw Robin, Marian and Roland out for ice cream.  No one in town probably knows (other than useless Will) what's going on.  Emma's a little busy with DQ and Hook and other than thinking she broke Robin and Regina up by bringing Marian back she doesn't know what's happening.  If they wanted everyone to know they should've shown them in the diner or Grumpy paying a visit to the crypt.

 

I agree that it's hard to invest in Robin and Regina when they don't seem to fight for each other.  Robin wants Marian to wake up so that he can tell her he loves Regina??  Regina wants Marian to wake up so that Robin will fall back in love with Marian?  I don't see Robin fighting for Regina, I see him sneaking off to see her because he has strong feelings for her that seemingly came out of no where.  I don't see Regina fighting for Robin, I see her hoping that Robin will forget her because she thinks she deserves to be miserable.  I'd like to see them fight together.  Robin's taking the easy way of hoping the book will re write the story.  Regina's sulked for 8 episodes after a relationship that lasted for a week ended.  Had Regina not know about the "tattoo" I doubt she'd be this sulky.

[Faemonic]

Are my expectations too low if my theory about Hook's red, red, bright and shiny heart is that no one thought about what color it actually should be?

I bet dollars to donuts that was exactly what happened!

[KingOfHearts]

 

Are my expectations too low if my theory about Hook's red, red, bright and shiny heart is that no one thought about what color it actually should be?

I guess heart color only matters if you've committed unforgivable transgressions like Snow, or you're resilient like Regina.

[OnceUponAJen]

Where is the moral indignation? Where are the pitchforks? Where's the spray paint? The only one that seems to see the moral dilemma is Regina.

It's a small point but actually, there was a scene where Emma went through Regina's desk, and there was a can of red spay paint in one of the drawers. Regina totally spray painted Mary Margaret's car.

[KAOS Agent]

 

When you boil it down to the bones, these are not actually relationships. The show barely pretends they are. David, Belle, Hook and Robin are narrative props that exist only to prompt emotional growth in the lead characters. It's given the gloss of "romance," but all the pairings could just as easily be platonic (or imaginary) and still get the job done. With less potential for crypt sex.

 

I disagree with this characterization with regards to Hook. Hook is the only romantic partner in the main cast whose introduction was not reduced to love interest. Hook was brought in as a foil to Rumpelstiltskin. The relationship between those two men was what drove Hook's story for all of Season 2. There was a bit of mutual attraction on the beanstalk between Emma and Hook, but Hook was not a prop for Emma's emotional growth at all for the first year after his introduction. If anything, Emma was the prop for Hook's emotional growth during that time.

 

In Season 3, Hook was shown to form relationships outside of Emma. His centric in Neverland was of his relationship with his brother and tied to helping David, not his developing romantic feelings for Emma. With his foil off crying at a doll, Hook was then pushed into the silly triangle plot and then his foil "died" or was locked up/crazy for all of 3B, so his role did turn to that of prop for Emma. However, he got his own emotional growth episode in "The Jolly Roger" which again was about how Hook himself had changed and did not depend on Emma's availability at all. In fact, his relationship with Emma could have been an impediment to his growth.

 

Now in Season 4, Hook's foil is back and is as evil as ever. While Hook is still acting as support for Emma, his relationship with Rumpel is what has pushed his story. None of the other characters' partners have done anything outside of their romantic support roles while Hook is deeply entrenched in his own non-romantic storyline. David, Belle and Robin are still basically cheerleaders for their respective partners, but Hook's fascinating relationship with Rumpel allows him to be much more than just the main character's love interest.

[Faemonic]

 

 

Great post! Sums up quite well why I love Hook as a character. He's narratively interesting, although in this show it's become a bit of a drag how the story drives the characters instead of the characters driving the story, I don't know if it's whoever's writing Hook's lines or if it's the way Colin says them, but it's like any distance or barrier between character and plot completely collapses into the Killian Jones singularity.

I completely understand how his pushiness, violence, and sexual objectification of women put some people off so much that Hook has ruined the show for them, and for a lot of people he's irredeemable as a character and a person... but frankly by the time the third season came around Hook was the only reason I was watching.

He plays off everyone really interestingly: Rumpel, Cora, individual members of Team Princess, Regina, Belle, Snow and Charming, Grumpy, Pan, Ariel, even Sneezy in the background. Sadly, he hasn't gotten the chance to show that versatility much since season 2.

And I think I mentioned on the Villains thread how much I looked forward to more Rumpel and Hook scenes that they just fall a little too flat for me now--but it's great to have them at all! Hook though, with Gold, is I dare say uncharacteristically outclassed? Hook used to be able to hold his own, but now it's like, wow, Rumpel... quit kicking the puppy... The Floor was a kinder partner to Hook than that after all these episodes.

[Rumsy4]

And I think I mentioned on the Villains thread how much I looked forward to more Rumpel and Hook scenes that they just fall a little too flat for me now--but it's great to have them at all! Hook though, with Gold, is I dare say uncharacteristically outclassed? Hook used to be able to hold his own, but now it's like, wow, Rumpel... quit kicking the puppy... The Floor was a kinder partner to Hook than that after all these episodes.

It's painful to watch. The power differential is too great for the Rumple/Hook animosity to work effectively this season. It was as painful as seeing Regina unload on Emma for a whole episode. I get the writers have set these people up as mirrors, but it is really painfully lopsided. Hook is not ruthless as he used to be, and he doesn't have the equivant of Dreamshade that can be used against the Dark One's powers. It just makes Hook look like an idiot for going against the Dark One, and Emma a doormat for prostrating herself at Regina's feet.

The bad guys are always more magical and powerful than the good guys, until the deux ex machina artifact is used to defeat them at the last minute. They need to level the playing field in some way, and make it an equal footing at some level. It's just not compelling storytelling as is.

The Rumple/DQ dynamic is more interesting to watch--she seems to be his equal on some level. And Rumple is not crying over dolls--that's always a plus. But at the end of the day, we know that the DQ will be defeated, while Rumple will continue in the Show. There are no real stakes.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Rumsy4

[KingOfHearts]

 

They need to level the playing field in some way, and make it an equal footing at some level. It's just not compelling storytelling as is.

ITA.

 

S1 had a level playing field with Regina and Emma. There was no magic, which helped considerably. Sometimes Regina would have a victory, then Emma would, and so forth. The villain didn't get a winning streak all the way up to the last second then just lose to a deus ex machina. It was a process where both parties had wins and losses. Emma actually had a fighting chance for the most part because of her wit and tenacity. Now that the villains get super powerful magic with no rules, it's really no contest until the eleventh hour.

 

The massive handicaps the antagonists receive really take away the third dimension from the show. It's borderline cartoon. What's worse is that we have to spend nine episodes watching the good guys act like idiots, and it's irritating.

Edited November 20, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

Where is the moral indignation? Where are the pitchforks? Where's the spray paint?

I don't actually need to see "slut" painted on Regina's Mercedes (though it would be turnabout fair play), but there's a lot of middle ground between that and "You slept with a married man! Squeee! You totally deserve to follow your heart and be happy!" Like maybe a shocked, "Oh my. But what about Marian? Isn't she still frozen?"

 

I think that's where my moral outrage for the sake of my hypothetical kids is coming from. This show has had some wonky morality from the beginning of the second season, but always before there was some wiggle room -- it was more in subtext or the overall framing rather than said outright, it was the judgment of a bad character so it was skewed, it was a good character thinking the best of someone or taking on more responsibility than necessary. But this was a supposedly good character outright stating that a bad act wasn't anything to be ashamed of, with no thought whatsoever to the people who might be harmed by that act -- Marian and Roland -- or the fact that Marian is entirely innocent and helpless in this (and is kind of in this fix because of her loyalty to Snow).

 

Then there's the supposedly so redeemed that she totally deserves a happy ending Regina letting Snow compare her own "adultery" to Regina's actions with no apparent awareness of the fact that she was the ringleader in slut shaming Mary Margaret even though she, of all people, knew that it was all based on her own lies. If she's really redeemed and now has any kind of conscience or empathy, this should be when she brings that up -- "But it was really your husband, and you only thought you were cheating because of me." At least a sign of a guilt pang would be nice. As it is, it makes Regina look like a huge hypocrite.

 

Really, the whole thing is a perfect storm of Ick:

1. Robin Hood cheated on Maid Marian
2. In a crypt
3. While his wife was under a curse and near death
4. With the woman who executed/planned to execute (depending on the timeline) his wife
5. Right after being reminded of the influence Marian had on his life and what she sacrificed for him
6. And he used Marian's devotion to him as an inspiration to follow his own heart and go sleep with Regina
7. Then Snow told Regina it was nothing to be ashamed of and just like that time she had an affair -- even though it was an "affair" with her own husband, manipulated into something ugly by Regina who then tried to turn the whole town against her

 

Laying it out like that, I think I see why this is bothering me so much. It's way too much like how my brother and his current wife started their relationship (no wife 1 under a frozen curse and no pixie dust, but there was sneaking around behind the wife's back while justifying it all as "fate" and then it turned out that wife 2's family knew the whole time they were dating that he was married and thought it was wonderful because it had to be true love if they were having to go through so much to be together). I have to psych myself up to be around them at Thanksgiving, so all this is hitting a sore point. There will be much rage knitting over the holiday, when I'm not hiding in the kitchen and helping my mom.

[Rumsy4]

From the Spoiler thread.

 

A Belle/Hook friendship though weird might work.  I remember Belle's fish out of water experiences when she discovered burgers and iced tea because she hadn't had the Storybrooke download.  I did get the impression that whatever happened between them was maybe water under the bridge in the two episodes they somewhat interacted in.

 

But for them to be really friends, Hook needs to spend a whole day railing at Belle that she ruined his life. She was stupid enough to believe the Crocodile and think he was giving her the real Dagger. That's why he was "forced" to blackmail the Dark One over it. By the end of the day, Belle will prostrate herself at Hook's feet, calling herself as idiot. She'll tell Hook that he has done a lot for her, and appreciates how hard he is working to change. After all they are both non-magical beings in a relationship with a magical being. No one else can understand their uniqueness. Then, and only then, can a beautiful friendship blossom.

 

In all seriousness, I don't really want Belle and Hook to become BFFs. There's too much history there, and Rumple would probably kill Hook for being friends with his wife, especially (and hopefully) if he gets estranged from her. Them working as allies, researching things needed to defeat the next threat (which might well be Rumple :-p), might be interesting to watch, though. Let there be at least one former villain/victim relationship that is allowed to transition semi-normally! 

Edited November 20, 2014 by Rumsy4

[Shanna Marie]

I can't really see Hook and Belle becoming fast friends anytime soon because there's too much water under that bridge, but if you remove the Rumple part of the equation, they do have a lot in common. Belle could never be called a coward, and she was as willing to stand up to the Dark One (when he was controlled by Zelena) as Hook has been. He's never explicitly expressed an interest in adventure the way she has, but you don't become a career naval officer or a pirate without at least some interest in that sort of thing. His interest in books may be more fanon than canon at this point because the only bit of dialogue about that so far was his comment about being surprisingly good at research, but they did decorate the set of his cabin on the Jolly Roger with a lot of books, and every time he was found lurking in the library in season two he had an open book in his hand. So I could see them having enough in common to be the basis for a friendship. If she'd traveled through time before meeting Rumple, she and Lt. Jones would have probably hit it off pretty well. Or since she does seem to go for the bad boys who need to be redeemed with love, if she'd met pirate Hook before she met Rumple she might have been all over that and would have become Milah 2.0, running off to have adventures with a pirate (while nagging him into not being quite so bad).

 

But there has been a lot of nastiness between them. However, once she's realized how badly Rumple has betrayed her and has seen what Rumple has done to Hook, Hook would be a natural person for her to turn to for understanding and commiseration -- kind of the way the exes of the same person can end up becoming friends because they both understand what it's like to be screwed over by that person. Then over time that could lead to a real friendship.

[KingOfHearts]

 

They could form the Rumple screwed me over support group and recruit more members. It could meet right after first time mommy and me princess group.

They'd have to recruit the entire town! And that's not even taking the fact he created the curse into account.

Edited November 20, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

However, once she's realized how badly Rumple has betrayed her and has seen what Rumple has done to Hook, Hook would be a natural person for her to turn to for understanding and commiseration -- kind of the way the exes of the same person can end up becoming friends because they both understand what it's like to be screwed over by that person. Then over time that could lead to a real friendship.

 

There's a long list of people, including Henry, who can understand the betrayal. Your analogy of badly used ex-es would work with Milah, if she came back from the dead, but I don't see that it applies to Hook. After all, Hook has wronged her as well. Besides, Belle seems like the kind of person who will seek to justify or alleviate the bad behavior of their spouse. I'm not sure she has enough self-awareness to realize the irony of her taunt to Hook's rotten heart while praising Rumple's "True Heart", but I really don't require Belle to acknowledge it in story. I do think she needs to acknowledge Milah's murder, and how little Rumple has changed though, but I'm not holding my breath. She really needs to work on her own hero/guilt-complex, and why it drove her to try and be such a vocal cheerleader for Rumple, and caused her to be blind to his faults. 

 

Belle does need some friends. She usually helps the "good guys" with research when there is a crisis, but otherwise seems to hang out only with Rumple. If she separates from Rumple by the end of the half-season, which I really hope she does, she needs to make friends with Red or Emma or someone! 

Edited November 20, 2014 by Rumsy4

[KAOS Agent]

Belle could have trouble making friends with anyone in town. Who wants to be friends with the wife of a psychopath? What if he thinks you've slighted Belle in some way and decides to punish you? We've seen what Rumpel did to the guy who accidentally skinned Bae's knee. Many people in town have had their own run ins with Rumpel. Remember the guy who wouldn't help out because his father had been turned into a pig by Rumpel? It would be super awkward to hang with Belle knowing who she's married to. It would be especially hard to take if she's still bleating on about how he has a good heart or says that she loves all of him including the dark parts.

Edited November 20, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[KingOfHearts]

We've seen what Rumpel did to the guy who accidentally skinned Bae's knee. 

 

 

I recall in S2 before Rumple left to find Bae he threatened to kill anyone who laid a finger on Belle while he was gone. So yeah, I'd stay away from her too for my own life's sake. I wish Belle was still locked up in the asylum, to be honest.

[Shanna Marie]

There would have to be levels of membership in the Rumple Screwed Me Over club. But in this case, I was thinking in terms of Hook as the proxy for Milah in getting reassurance that she's not the only woman who got hurt after marrying this man and realizing that maybe she should have listened to Hook's warnings about Rumple.

 

But I'm not going to hold my breath. On this show, it's more likely that Belle will never kick Rumple to the curb (because they seem to be terrified of the society-destroying riots among the Rumbelle shippers), that she will manage to pull him back from the brink with the power of their love, and that will serve as proof that he really does have a good heart, after all. And because she actually tried to use the dagger he gave her and she hid what she knew about Anna, she's as bad as he is, so she can't criticize him or judge him.

[Rumsy4]

Belle could have trouble making friends with anyone in town. Who wants to be friends with the wife of a psychopath? What if he thinks you've slighted Belle in some way and decides to punish you? 

 

Besides, if Belle decides to walk out on Rumple, he's going to be pissed. It will remind him of the time Milah left him. So, I guess anyone who tries to befriend Belle need to beware. lol I bet the Sheriff of Nottingham will be idiot enough to pull a move on her, and will end up dead in a ditch. 

[ParadoxLost]

Besides, if Belle decides to walk out on Rumple, he's going to be pissed.

 

I'm not so sure about this anymore.  Rumpel is progressing pretty fast this season from 'I'll be a better man for Belle' to 'I'll slit your throat to keep Belle from finding out I'm not who she thinks I am' to 'Belle will realize I'm not a good man deep down'.  I'm not sure he won't be willing to let her go fairly soon.  Sure, he'll regret it later like with Bae.  But he's getting power mad at the exclusion of all else.

Edited November 21, 2014 by ParadoxLost

[Camera One]

Hmm... maybe they're setting up him up for his next quest since there's no Bae now.  He'll lose Belle, and then regret it and spend the next half-season trying to get her back with another huge sacrifice.  Wash, rinse, repeat.  

[ShadowFacts]

I noticed that Rumple told someone, can't remember who, that Belle was the light in his life, not the love of his life like you would expect.  Maybe he would go postal if she leaves, maybe he would want to win her back, but maybe he wouldn't totally mind going solo.  For maximum dramatic effect and Gold acting menacing, I think he will not let her go too quietly.

[YaddaYadda]

I noticed that Rumple told someone, can't remember who, that Belle was the light in his life, not the love of his life like you would expect

 

He told Hook that in "The Apprentice".  That episode was okay, but there were good lines in it.

[Amerilla]

I noticed that Rumple told someone, can't remember who, that Belle was the light in his life, not the love of his life like you would expect

 

He's referred to her as the light in his life before.

 

I'm not sure that him not referring to her as the love of his life or similar language is meaningful in terms of him he feels about her, so much as it reflects his feelings about himself. I do think he loves her very much, but this is a person with some pretty massive abandonment issues (Milah, Cora) and a clear view of himself as a "monster." He's spent most of his active relationship with Belle expecting her to see who he really is and to leave him. In a more subtly written story, you could argue that his current behavior is driven in part to push what he sees as the inevitable end of their relationship.    

 

 

 

On this show, it's more likely that Belle will never kick Rumple to the curb (because they seem to be terrified of the society-destroying riots among the Rumbelle shippers)...

 

Is there an emoticon for a snort? If Adam & Co are "terrified" of the Rumbelle contingent, they have a funny way of showing it. Most shippers I've seen are already beyond pissed, given that it was almost completely shelved in S3 and has been gutted in S4. There's never consensus within any fandom, of course, but there are plenty of shippers out there who say that the marriage is a sham/plot device and it would be better for it to end than for Belle to stay with Rumpel as he is now, or that depending on this arc ends, they're going to stop watching and retreat to fanfic.

Edited November 21, 2014 by Amerilla

[Shanna Marie]

If Adam & Co are "terrified" of the Rumbelle contingent, they have a funny way of showing it.

I was kind of being snarky there. But it did sound like they hadn't planned on Belle being a regular and this relationship being a thing until there was apparently a huge outcry after "Skin Deep," and ever since then, the relationship has defied all logic. It's written as though they're afraid to break them up but don't really like Rumple being constrained by a relationship. Maybe they're trying to make even the most rabid Rumbellers beg for the relationship to end, and then they'll be free to write Rumple the way they want to. And this, boys and girls, is why letting the opinion of the most vocal fans dictate your story choices is a bad idea. It's physically impossible to make everyone happy at the same time, and if you're doing something you didn't really plan to do just because some fans want it, you probably still won't make them happy because you'll do it wrong.

 

As for Rumple's feelings about Belle, it's hard to say. I do think there's that element of control in there -- is he seeing Belle as a possession he doesn't want to slip away from him? Or is he resenting the fact that she's the only thing holding him back? And there's that sense of illusion. He threatened Hook with hurting Emma if he broke Belle's heart by telling her about the deception. I suppose it's par for the course on this show for telling the truth about a deception to be considered more evil than the deception itself, but at the same time, Rumple's concern was for Belle's feelings, even as he doesn't seem to have considered that the best way to protect Belle's feelings is to not behave in a way that he knows would hurt her if she knew about it. In short: they knew what they were doing when they had a psychiatrist perform their wedding ceremony.

[Rumsy4]

I was never a huge shipper when it came to OUAT until I started shipping CS, but when Skin Deep aired, I was glad to find that they had decided to bring Belle back. However, it's obvious that they never made a concrete plan to integrate her into the story properly.

Whatever Rumple feels about Belle now (it's hard to believe they are still True Loves, but he probably still does love her), he won't be happy if she separates from him. It will be a reminder of Milah leaving him, and would wound his fragile ego. I doubt his misogyny has disappeared. However, I don't think he'd rip Belle's heart out. So, there's that. ;-p

[Shanna Marie]

Whatever Rumple feels about Belle now (it's hard to believe they are still True Loves, but he probably still does love her), he won't be happy if she separates from him. It will be a reminder of Milah leaving him, and would wound his fragile ego.

There might be mixed feelings -- on the one hand, he'd be free to cut loose and be himself without having to pretend to be good (and once the truth about the dagger comes out, Belle's no use as an alibi), with no one nagging him to be better. But on the other hand, there's that control issue. He couldn't deal with not being in control over her and couldn't deal with being rejected.

 

What I've been wondering is what Belle gets out of this relationship. He gets an ego boost in having someone to believe in him, and she makes a great alibi and smokescreen. But what does she get from him? It mostly seems to feed her savior complex -- she must be a really, really good person if she can love someone like him, and that makes her the hero she longs to be. He gives her material things, but have we seen him doing anything that resembles meeting any emotional needs of hers? She props him up and tells him how good he is and believes in him. What does he do for her?

[Rumsy4]

 

What does he do for her?

 

Simply put, he validates her belief in him, and her entire worldview. I see it as part of her guilt/hero complex after the Anna incident. She has been convinced for decades that Rumple had an inner core of goodness, and that her belief would inspire him to change. And she thinks that has happened. She saw him makes a series of right choices--going to Neverland to rescue Henry, sacrifice his life to defeat Pan, choose his son over the Dagger when Nealfire revived him, etc.. She doesn't know that he's been sneakily murdering people out of revenge (Tamara, Zelena, etc..) all along even while being the hero, and that he's now regressed to an even worse degree. He was also behaving himself for Neal's sake. But now Neal's gone, and Rumple has never loved her as much as he loved his son. But Belle doesn't understand that. 

 

On some level, she loves his power, but she also has this sadly naive picture of a marriage that has already reached it's ideal state in True Love, trust and affection, forgetting that she hasn't spent any actual time building on all those foundations with Rumple. The most time they spent together in Storybrooke was when she was Lacey, and after that, between Panry and Zelena, they spent barely a fews days together before they got married. That's why she lied about her knowledge of Anna, abused the Dagger, and refuses to go with her gut on Rumple's machinations with the Dagger. She doesn't have room for human imperfections in her ideal image of their marriage, let alone inhuman ones. 

Edited November 21, 2014 by Rumsy4

[Faemonic]

I doubt his misogyny has disappeared.

I used to have this theory that Fairytale Land had actually developed a societal system where systemic misandry was possible. Cora's backstory with Jonathan The Slut-Shaming Cad blew that theory to more smithereens than Belle and Mulan did just by saying "but women don't get to / aren't allowed", but in Rumpel's case I still don't know. He comes off to me as token exception that proves the rule in who tends to have The Powerrr in either world. Check the Nealfire gravestone confession: he feels most like a man when he's mothering; Fairytale Land genders are sure different than the ones I've been taught.

It doesn't look good that Rumpel clearly got some unnecessary measure of joy out of killing a powerless, contrite Milah; a powerless, contrite Tamara; a powerless, contrite Zelena; attempted gleeful murder of a powerless, imprisoned Regina and recently a clueless seeking-a-power-downer Emma... but is that misogyny as we Land Without Magic folk understand it?

(This is waaay broad, but, I think, a relevant consideration when it comes to what can influence relationship dynamics.) (Not one anyone running the show was likely to make, though, so, there's that.)

It could just be that there aren't that many other guys in power for Rumpel to get a thrill out of killing, like Pan, Old Man Mickey Mouse, Sheriff Nottingham maybe... Moe, at a stretch... that's all I can think of. King George? I mean, I love Hook, but next to Rumpel I can't count the pirate as someone "in power"...ever. Hook trips and falls into power sometimes if he's lucky, picks himself up, dusts himself off.

But back to Rumbelle. Ooh, I had a thought that Rumpel's thing is more psychological than systemic, grr, my mind won't keep still on this but whatever I'll leave the paragraphs above as is. But Rumpel doesn't feel innately worthy of having Belle, so if she outright left him then Rumpel probably wouldn't get all entitled-grouchy about it and try to trap Belle emotionally with a baby like he did with Milah and Cora... but that means he's seeking every other avenue to keep Belle's light in his life, other than being honest, and other than even trying to be less of a control freak megalomaniac. Rumpel's got centuries of trauma and conditioning that he, personally, is cowardly and unworthy and evil. I think he should see Archie about that, but then again everybody on this show should see Archie about something and they don't.

Rumple has never loved her as much as he loved his son. But Belle doesn't understand that.

She seemed to get this when she first opened up the library, and Rumple went to do the Clean Break but she asked him out of a hamburger date instead. On the other hand, I think I get what you're getting at. Rumple had to go to Nealfire's headstone to ask for the strength to do the right thing. Belle was right there, living, breathing, and... Rumple can't see her and sincerely pledge to do the right thing??

That's why she lied about her knowledge of Anna, abused the Dagger, and refuses to go with her gut on Rumple's machinations with the Dagger. She doesn't have room for human imperfections in her ideal image of their marriage, let alone inhuman ones.

I lean more towards that Belle does know about imperfection. She came clean with her knowledge about Anna, apologized for abusing the dagger, and went with her heart instead of her head on Rumple's machinations with the Dagger (which is too bad, because Belle's supposed to be brainy, and if she used her brain for a split second there then she'd be right.)

So, I think she can deal with imperfections, process them in herself... but in a relationship, it takes two, and Rumpel's not fully present and committed the way that Belle is.

(On the other hand, there are some glaringly naive moments that I can't get over. Belle finding out about Milah and condemning Hook to rotten-heartedness, for example. That was just... I didn't even know what to make of Belle then. It didn't not happen, but it's more of a hiccup to me than a, "Yep! Can't deny it! That's Belle, all right!")

Edited November 21, 2014 by Faemonic

[Shanna Marie]

On the other hand, there are some glaringly naive moments that I can't get over. Belle finding out about Milah and condemning Hook to rotten-heartedness, for example. That was just... I didn't even know what to make of Belle then.

That's one big reason I have issues with Belle and that the relationship between Belle and Rumple feels so hollow to me. This was a huge deal that was treated as no big deal. It's not so much what she said to Hook (though the fact that she was blaming Hook for bringing out Rumple's darkness while Rumple was in the process of beating him to death is rather alarming) as it is that she just plain didn't seem to change her view of Rumple at all after learning that he murdered his wife for leaving him and after actually watching him nearly beat a man to death. I don't think this is what they were going for, but it makes me see her as kind of evil and callous. If I'd learned that about a man and saw him doing that, I wouldn't even be able to look at him, and there would have to be a lot of explaining and thinking before I'd have anything to do with him again. I don't think I could get into a romantic relationship with him, and I definitely wouldn't marry him. But that same night, she got in a car with him and didn't show the slightest discomfort. Then there was all the stuff when she was Lacey, like watching him gleefully beat another man nearly to death, and it didn't give her a moment's pause once she got her memories back.

 

I'm sure this is all a symptom of the Plot!Plot!Plot! and all the emotional arcs being in service of the plot for that particular episode, and the episode in which she learned about Milah and saw Hook being beaten was the episode where she had to lose her memories, so she had to go straight to the town line with Rumple for that to happen, and that meant she couldn't be at all creeped out and disgusted with him, and then this information didn't have anything to do with the plot arc of any subsequent episodes, so it ends up meaning that she learned he murdered his previous wife and has never so much as discussed this with him before marrying him. Having second thoughts after seeing what he was like without her as his morality leash didn't fit into the theme of the episode where she got her memories back, so they went straight to the joyful reunion, and then having second thoughts about the kind of person he was didn't fit the themes of any of the plots while she was in Storybrooke and he was in Neverland, so it ends up looking like it hasn't bothered her at all. Later we find out that she apparently knows he nearly beat her father to death (I'm seeing a rather disturbing pattern here), and it doesn't seem to bother her. The whole relationship has lurched forward in bizarre ways -- she leaves him because she knows he's choosing power over love, but when she's reunited with him, she goes straight to living with him. She breaks up with him, then instantly gets back together with him instead of sticking to her guns and letting him prove himself to her. She learns he murdered his wife and doesn't care. She sees the really dark side he's been hiding from her and doesn't care. Then after being separated from him for a year, she marries him. I know this is all meant to show what faith she has in him, but the fact that the relationship is progressing without them dealing with any of these serious issues makes it look hollow and shallow, and it makes her look delusional and possibly a bit evil. How many people can you watch him beat nearly to death or learn of him beating nearly to death before you stop insisting that he's really a good person? And what does it make you if you don't care that he's done these things?

 

But just imagine how powerful this current betrayal arc would be if they'd ever actually addressed his past stuff and dealt with it in such a way that there seemed to be a firm foundation there. Instead, since she's been blithely going around sticking her fingers in her ears and going La La La, good heart, good heart, good heart, it's hard to like the character or to feel bad for her when it all goes crumbling down around her since she had more than enough data to have seen it coming.

[Rumsy4]

 

the fact that she was blaming Hook for bringing out Rumple's darkness while Rumple was in the process of beating him to death is rather alarming

 

It is, but that seems to be the morality A&E are preaching in this Show. Someone else is always to blame for the moral darkness of the villains. It is either Rumple's fault that Regina became evil, or because Snow told a secret. If Regina regresses, it is again the fault of the good guys because they are not immediately embracing or prostrating themselves at her feet (like when no one ate her lasagne when she was "trying to be good"). Regina literally confessed to enslavement of Sidney, and planned murder of Marian to Emma, all the while screaming that she didn't tell Emma because she knew that Emma would never forgive her. The implication being that it would be inevitably Emma's fault if she did not give Regina another chance. Emma is as bad as Neal and Regina because she lied about Henrys' biological father. Emma is unforgiving because she did not give Lily a second chance, etc., etc.. The victims are supposed to coddle and baby the villains while they are on their path to "redemption", ignoring occasional lapses along the way like assault, murder, and kidnapping. Their past crimes should never be mentioned because they are "working hard to change". I've never questioned the morality of showrunners before, but I'm starting to wonder if A&E's worldview is that twisted. 

Edited November 21, 2014 by Rumsy4

[Writing Wrongs]

My heart must be frozen, because I really don't care at all about Emma and Hook's twu luv crap. I just don't get the excitement over Captain Swan. I like them individually, but together? Meh. It's like how by Return of the Jedi, Han was no longer that cool smuggler guy, he was a whipped do-gooder cuddling with Ewoks and following Leia around.

 

Romance on tv shows just annoys me, I guess. LOL
 

[ABitOFluff]

My heart must be frozen, because I really don't care at all about Emma and Hook's twu luv crap. I just don't get the excitement over Captain Swan. I like them individually, but together? Meh. It's like how by Return of the Jedi, Han was no longer that cool smuggler guy, he was a whipped do-gooder cuddling with Ewoks and following Leia around.

 

Romance on tv shows just annoys me, I guess. LOL

 

Funny thing is, I've never really been a shipper either, but, darnit, those two kids...I guess I just want to see Hook happy. Emma makes him happy, and she's cool, so yay Captain Swan.

[KingOfHearts]

 

 

My heart must be frozen, because I really don't care at all about Emma and Hook's twu luv crap. I just don't get the excitement over Captain Swan. I like them individually, but together? Meh. It's like how by Return of the Jedi, Han was no longer that cool smuggler guy, he was a whipped do-gooder cuddling with Ewoks and following Leia around.

Romance on tv shows just annoys me, I guess. LOL

I'm pretty much neutral on CS. The couple works, which means a lot on a show that has so many dysfunctional relationships, but I don't get excited about watching them together. Them dating or touching lips doesn't get me all giddy. You could say I ship them, but I'm not a CS fanatic.

 

(As a sidenote, I don't find the "going steady" dynamic all that interesting on a drama like Once. I prefer more of a persevering fairy-tale-ish romance like Snowing or S1/S2 Rumpbelle. Going for coffee is more like the Hallmark channel. If you're into that, that's fine - it's just not my cup of tea.)

Edited November 26, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Dianthus]

I'm the shippy sort, but I always seem to go for the complicated (read: angsty) ships...Mulder and Scully, John and Aeryn, Buffy and Spike. Guess I'm just a glutton for punishment.:-p

 

As for Captain Swan, I definitely want more for them than this 'going-steady' business. That's ok for a while, and a necessary step for them (IMO), but it could get tiresome.   

Edited November 26, 2014 by Dianthus

[KAOS Agent]

What I liked about Hook/Emma is that they did not go the annoying fairy tale romance route wherein they fall in love at first sight or even first adventure. It's great that two very good looking people had their beanstalk adventure, somewhat acknowledged that they found the other person physically attractive, but then continued on with their own goals. Hook didn't suddenly forget about Milah and his vengeance and pledge his undying love to Emma because reasons (unlike some characters on this show. Yes, I'm looking at you, Robin). And Emma stayed on mission with regards to getting back to Henry. 

 

I actually appreciate the "going steady" approach because then at least I know that these two people who genuinely care for each other are forming a relationship based on actual reality (or as real as you can get when living that life) where they talk and get to know each other personally. No, I don't need to see these actual dates onscreen, but it's nice to know that they are happening. It makes a growing understanding between two characters and their deepening relationship more believable than just we shared some adventures/separations and I love you, so let's get married. Then again, Outlaw Queen had a couple of dates and I still don't get what's going on there.

 

Snowing had a cute romance and we know they work well together, but so much of why they worked was because Dallas & Goodwin have amazing chemistry. Their story itself was really rushed and not a very interesting romance. "Skin Deep" was an interesting set up, but I have zero understanding of what Belle and Rumpel talk about when they're actually together. I'm still confused about what Belle gets out of that relationship. 

[retrograde]

I'm in the same boat as KingOfHearts -- I like the character of Emma, I like the character of Hook, I think their relationship has been done well and I'm fine with it, but I also wouldn't care if they weren't together so long as it made sense for the story.

 

That said, there is only so many times I can watch one or the other being in danger of having a crisis, the other one worrying about them, then them hugging/kissing/staring deeply into each other's eyes when it's all okay. It feels like there has been a lot of that

and I can foresee at least two more episodes of that before the half-season is out

, and it's getting a bit repetitive. The main reason I liked the date episode was not so much that they were on a date, per se, but more that they were having fun and doing something different and we saw a different side to both characters. Hook really needs his own storyline separate from Emma in 4B (or at least one that doesn't involve him getting cursed and/or lying to her about it) or I think their dynamic is going to get tiresome.