Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[Curio]

Personally, I don't care about who saves whom, but what I really dislike is when one person is relegated to saving the other emotionally, while the other doesn't really do much in response.

It's definitely lopsided right now, but I think Emma will slowly start to realize Hook has some pretty big emotional walls, too. Emma isn't used to being the one who has to play 20 questions with someone to get to know them, unless she's researching that person for her bail bonds job. She probably doesn't even think to probe Hook about his past or his insecurities because he puts on such a big bravado. It could end up being a light bulb moment where Emma stops to realize hey wait a minute... I just shared my childhood mementos with Hook but I still don't even know what his favorite color is (okay, it's black) or what his childhood was like. Maybe I should ask him...

[regularlyleaded]

I don't agree. Emma's fine on her own. Sure she may not be the most loving and empathetic person in the world, but it's a process, and she was defrosting fine even without Hook, just with Henry and her parents.

But Emma's relationship with Henry and her parents are very different types of relationship from what she has with Hook (even removing the romantic aspect). And ones where (IMO) she can't really be herself (not yet anyway) and therefore her emotional growth would stagnate.

 

Henry is her son and it's Emma's job as his mother to encourage his development and growth because he's the child, not the other way around ( ya, I'm looking at you Woegina ). Henry is supportive of Emma, but it's not the same as having an adult that Emma can really be open with and feel comfortable enough to expose her fears and vulnerabilities. As far as we know, Emma has only ever shared what is in the box that contains "What's left of [her] childhood" with Hook. Henry may know some of her history, but that's only due to the year they spent in NYC because of the cursed memories. Even from Henry Emma hides many, many, many things, as most parents do with their children. If she were to treat Henry as her adult BFF with whom she shares everything, it would register as creepy just as Henry registers as creepy with Regina at times because the writers have him behaving like Regina's BFF plying her with wine instead of being her son.

 

Emma's relationship with her parents is also another kettle of fish entirely. They care for Emma but they place a lot of pride and value in Emma being The Savior. They see her as the child they lost and in some ways never got back, and so there is a lot of guilt that acts as an obstacle for their relationship to become fully realized (because they don't talk about it! Damn you, writers!) Emma keeps things from them for various reasons, and Snow and Charming don't ask her or push her about anything. Their relationship as written (and not that I like it or agree with what the writers have done with their relationship, not by a long shot) is one of "status quo is good enough" and as a result Emma's emotional growth will stagnate and she'll never become an emotionally healthier person because of it.

 

So in many ways, I think Emma needs someone else in her life whose not her family, someone she doesn't share emotional baggage with (like she does with Henry and her parents), that she can connect with and really learn to be emotionally vulnerable with ( and BTW, I don't care what ass pull the writers put out there, Regina is NOT Emma's friend! Bite me, writers! Only upon the threat of death and torture will I submit, and even then I won't like it! Regina as Emma's friend is the reason the saying, "With friends like these, who needs enemies" exists.) It just so happens that the writers have chosen to go the route of romantic partner versus just giving Emma a platonic good friend. Though I will say, I think Hook is very much her friend and that their romance has been built out of that kinship.

 

Of course, YMMV and I'm more than happy to agree to disagree.

Edited October 30, 2014 by regularlyleaded

[YaddaYadda]

Though I will say, I think Hook is very much her friend and that their romance has been built out of that kinship.

 

I think that's what I've always really liked about Hook is even though his feelings for Emma always ran a lot deeper, but he chose to put all of that aside so that he could be there for her as a friend.  I find it makes their whole relationship more organic.  All the efforts he made towards her the moment they stepped in Neverland are paying off right now.

 

Sort of looking forward to Emma's reaction to this hand/hat/Rumple secret.

 

ETA - I must've been drunk when I wrote this because my sentences don't make sense.  But whatever...

Edited October 30, 2014 by YaddaYadda

[Souris]

I don't agree. Emma's fine on her own. Sure she may not be the most loving and empathetic person in the world, but it's a process, and she was defrosting fine even without Hook, just with Henry and her parents. Actually, I'd prefer this dynamic to Hook being all supportive, because it felt more genuine. I liked CS for a while, and it was nice to see Emma smile once in a while, but I also loved the element of belligerent and conflict in their relationship, and it all went away.

 

Personally, I think that's a GOOD thing that it went away. IMO a romantic relationship shouldn't have belligerence and rampant conflict -- if it does, it's probably not a particularly healthy one. Which isn't to say that some conflict isn't normal, because it certainly is, but two people showing one another support most of the time is a much healthier aspect for a relationship than constant fighting. I'm thrilled Hook is supportive of Emma, because I like Emma and want her to have somebody who respects her and supports her -- things her life has been sorely lacking in. Support is vital to a good relationship.

Edited October 30, 2014 by Souris

[stealinghome]

But if you're not careful, he'll become a Belle or Robin. The only reason he's not is because he's the network's pretty guy to lure in the appeal. He doesn't have any more centrics than Belle. The writers aren't interested in his story or the deeper sections of his character. He's just a prop-up to suit Emma's happy ending.

I think I fall somewhere in the middle on this. I agree that Hook has become less dynamic a character since Captain Swan really set sail and has become more of a sidekick--though I also think that he's a better defined character than Robin or Belle--but I don't think giving him magic would change (or not change) that, simply because one partner being far less important than the other narrative-wise is how these writers write relationships. Belle is an appendage for Rumpel, Robin is an appendage for Regina, and it took Charming 2 seasons and Ginnifer Goodwin's pregnancy to move beyond being Snow's appendage. These writers suck at having both members in a relationship be kickass and important to the plot at the same time (plus, Rumbelle aside, the show is pretty clear that the men take a backseat to the women in general). Now, they're not entirely unaware of this, because I get the sense the writers are trying to make up for it with Hook's side plot with Rumpel and the hat--but frankly that storyline's so asinine for everyone involved that it does Hook no favors.

 

so now it's time to start digging deeper. It's time to start hashing out stuff like their pasts, their best and worst sides, what they see in the future, and how their relationship is relative to everyone around them.

For all that I deeply disliked 4x05, this is actually one place where I feel like the show made a definite improvement on 4x04. The first date was a huge missed opportunity to see Captain Swan moving beyond the superficial, but the moment in the sheriff's office pre-Dairy Queen reveal was nice. They need to keep more of those moments coming.

[Shanna Marie]

Personally, I think that's a GOOD thing that it went away. IMO a romantic relationship shouldn't have belligerence and rampant conflict -- if it does, it's probably not a particularly healthy one. Which isn't to say that some conflict isn't normal, because it certainly is, but two people showing one another support most of the time is a much healthier aspect for a relationship than constant fighting.

Amen, and preach it! I'm so weary of the idea that conflict and belligerence="chemistry." I like the support and caring. It doesn't mean there's no conflict, because people who care about each other can disagree. There can also be friendly teasing and banter. But those relationships that are based on bickering and belligerence make me think that if they ever really got together, the whole thing would implode. I think that's a lot of where the infamous "Moonlighting" effect came from -- a relationship that's all about the bickering is going to fall apart once the couple actually gets together because if they keep acting that way when they're really involved and not just playing will they/won't they games, it looks dysfunctional or abusive, but if they stop acting that way, the relationship has changed entirely.  I happen to think Hook and Emma are becoming more interesting as they get more involved and they gradually start opening up to each other.

 

It's definitely lopsided right now, but I think Emma will slowly start to realize Hook has some pretty big emotional walls, too. Emma isn't used to being the one who has to play 20 questions with someone to get to know them, unless she's researching that person for her bail bonds job. She probably doesn't even think to probe Hook about his past or his insecurities because he puts on such a big bravado.

The few times she has probed, he's shut her down completely, but most of those times were before they got together and were during some other crisis. I guess the closest he's come to really opening up was during their Back to the Future adventure, when he realized that bringing her near his old self was (literally) giving her a look at his past and when he talked about losing Liam when he was trying to console her after she saw Snow burned at the stake. Since they've gotten together, the topic hasn't really had a chance to come up, unless maybe it was something they talked about over dinner. As I've said, his walls look like "have I told you how awesome I am?" so that no one usually wants to ask questions, so it may take her saying, "Please, tell me more about that" to call his bluff and force him to open up more.

 

As for the lopsided nature of things, I don't think he really feels a lack of balance at the moment. It does look as though he's doing all the giving, but I think he gives her a lot of credit for saving him in the first place, just by existing. Seeing how amazing she was and what contempt she held him in seems to have done a lot toward making him take a good look at himself and realize how badly he'd gone wrong. I don't think he changed just for her or just to get in her pants. It was more that he wanted to be the kind of person that someone like her could love, even if she never was able to see him that way. So he already feels like she's done him a huge favor. He's nowhere near the "but what about meeeeeee?" stage of things.

[KAOS Agent]

 

I liked CS for a while, and it was nice to see Emma smile once in a while, but I also loved the element of belligerent and conflict in their relationship, and it all went away.

 

The thing is that Emma runs away from emotional conflict. She really doesn't know how to deal, so she shuts down and closes up. Given her low self-worth, I'm sure there's a whole lot of fear of rejection and a heaping helping of feeling unlovable associated with conflict. Snarky flirting between the two is superficial and like the Neverland kiss doesn't really mean anything on a deeper level. Endless sniping and belligerence would make me hate them because while snark is fine, too much just makes me wonder why the hell these two are together. It's also why I question the Regina/Emma "friendship" or Regina/anyone relationships because all she ever does is put the other person down with her "sass".

 

When you get down to it, I'm less interested in the romance aspect of Hook & Emma's relationship and more than happy that Emma has a friend to vent to who listens to her, but is not afraid to tell her when she's wrong. And even more important, Emma listens to Hook. On more than one occasion, Emma has been hell bent on doing something stupid (going into the storm cellar, trying to save Marian from the Evil Queen, going into the barn with the active portal) and Hook has stopped her and injected reason into the situation. She was even walking away from the time portal when they were sucked in. He's helped her in ways that have nothing to do with romance or relationships just by being the voice of reason which, given Emma's impulsive tendencies, is something she sorely needs.

[Camera One]

But if you're not careful, he'll become a Belle or Robin. The only reason he's not is because he's the network's pretty guy to lure in the appeal. He doesn't have any more centrics than Belle. The writers aren't interested in his story or the deeper sections of his character. He's just a prop-up to suit Emma's happy ending.

 

Since Season 3, Hook has been treated much better than Belle.  He got two centrics with flashbacks focused on his character: "Good Form" and "The Jolly Roger", where both episodes gave him meaty scenes and the latter one showed an emotional struggle to deal with guilt and be a better person.  Two of Belle's flashbacks - "Skin Deep" and "Lacey", were basically to prop up Rumple.  She only got one by herself dealing with her own personal issues, which was "The Outsider".  I don't really count "Quiet Minds" since she was basically sharing with Neal and didn't get much to do.  I think Hook already gets enough screentime and character focus, both with and away from Emma.

Edited October 31, 2014 by Camera One

[FabulousTater]

I don't agree. Emma's fine on her own. Sure she may not be the most loving and empathetic person in the world, but it's a process, [...]

 

I agree with most of what's been said already, but I feel like it should be pointed out that Emma is neither unloving nor unfeeling. I’d say the opposite, actually. Emma is an extremely empathetic and a loving person. Her problem is letting herself be loved and allowing herself to be open with others. She’s guarded and she has those “walls” because she’s afraid of getting hurt because hurt is generally all that she has known her whole life. It is because she’s an extremely empathetic person that she chooses to help people (and why she keeps letting a certain someone use her as verbal punching bag), and not because she’s got a huge ego. Being guarded and afraid of getting hurt is very different from not being “the most loving and empathetic person in the world”. Very different, imo.

Edited October 31, 2014 by FabulousTater

[Shanna Marie]

When you get down to it, I'm less interested in the romance aspect of Hook & Emma's relationship and more than happy that Emma has a friend to vent to who listens to her, but is not afraid to tell her when she's wrong.

Yeah, for me the actual romance is the whipped cream and the cherry. I care a lot less about the kisses than I do about moments like him carefully and respectfully going through her box of childhood treasures as a way of understanding her beginnings.

 

You know, one factor in the way things are playing out between them may be their respective experience with relationships. She doesn't have a lot of experience with long-term relationships. Do we know how long she was with Neal? I don't think it was more than a year, if it was even that long, and she was with Walsh for eight months. Otherwise, she was more of a one-night-stand kind of girl. She doesn't really do emotional intimacy. On the other hand, he's had one really serious, long-term relationship. He and Milah were together 7-8 years, were essentially married in everything but legality and certainly seemed to consider themselves partners. They seemed to see it as a "til death do us part" kind of thing, and her dying words were to tell him she loved him. He talks a lot about his prowess with the ladies but we haven't seen enough to know how much of that is true and how much is talk -- did he do like in "The Jolly Roger" and play it up in public while quietly dismissing the woman or did he really cut a drunken swath through the women of coastal towns upon his return from Neverland? At any rate, the way he talked in the Echo Cave, even if he did have a number of dalliances, he seemed to have been doing a lot like Emma and avoiding getting too close to anyone, but he has had the one relationship that lasted years (and he would have to have been really young when it started if Hook is supposed to be currently anywhere near Colin's age, minus Neverland and the curse. They did kind of allude to that in the date episode, when he pointed out that he was pretty young when you remove those factors. So if he's in his early to mid 30s now, was back in the Enchanted Forest for maybe 3-4 years before the curse and with Milah for 7-8 years, that puts him in his early 20s when he met Milah).

[Minneapple]

making Hook more of a character in his own right could fix it.

I think giving Hook a job would go a long way toward making him his own character. Even his plot with Rumple right now -- everyone is holding their breath on if he'll tell Emma, and how she'll react, so really it's not about Hook, it's about his relationship with Emma. What does he do now in his spare time, hang about and play darts? Where does he get his money?

 

I do really like the way Hook and Emma went from having a lot of conflict and belligerence to...not so much, because television love-hate relationships give me a headache. To me, their relationship right now is very sweet and supportive and nearly perfect. I absolutely loved their final scene in the last episode, it was about the only thing in the ep that made it tolerable.

[KAOS Agent]

 

He talks a lot about his prowess with the ladies but we haven't seen enough to know how much of that is true and how much is talk -- did he do like in "The Jolly Roger" and play it up in public while quietly dismissing the woman or did he really cut a drunken swath through the women of coastal towns upon his return from Neverland?

 

Oh, I highly doubt that Hook was just quietly dismissing women and living a celibate life in his time in the Enchanted Forest after Neverland. Not only was Present!Hook not at all happy about Emma going near his past self, Past!Hook was very, very interested in a one night stand with Emma. And he took her back to his ship, where there was no question how he intended that evening to end. He wasn't looking for a relationship, but he wasn't going to cut sex out of his life in some attempt to be faithful to a woman who had died hundreds of years earlier. Drunken hook-ups worked for him, just as they worked for Emma. Both of them understand the need for sex without wanting any emotional attachment.

[Alex]

I've had a couple of question for quite some time.

I always thought that Emma and Neal were together for a couple of weeks, a month maximum. How do you calculate one year?

The second question is: why it is so important that Hook works? He could have enough dobloons to not be in need of having a proper job with a salary note.

[Rumsy4]

I too have always thought that Neal and Emma had been together for a couple of months at best. Their epic love makes no sense in context.

I think having a job may not necessarily help a character's development (see Belle), but being a man of leisure for life would not suit Hook. I'm not one of those who think he needs a job ASAP--but I hope they develop something for him by the end of the season. That would be in line with him fitting into Storybrooke life.

I notice people don't say the same for Robin. After all, the Merry Men live in tents and seem to be stealing crossbows off local vendors to hunt wild fowl. Where did Robin get the money to but ice-cream? But then, Robin is such a hopeless plot device right now, no wonder no one seems to care.

[Serena]

Hook kind of has a job. I mean, people call it "trailing after Emma", but if she calls him for sheriff-related help every time there's a crisis (which would be all the time), then maybe she should start paying him. It's not like he does nothing all day.

[YaddaYadda]

I never thought Emma and Neal were together more than 3 months.  A year makes very little sense in the timeline and makes things even creepier.  Someone should ask A&E about that and see if they have an answer which I'm sure they don't anyway, so never mind.

 

As far as Hook and phyrical relationships go, he actually seemed to have a relationship of that nature with Tink or maybe I read too much into it.  I just remember sort of scratching my head at when they met in Neverland and they way they spoke to each other.  I know Hook told Tink "after everything we've been through," when he was trying to get her to help them out, but we'll never know anything since the writers throw stuff in and then become allergic to developing anything.

 

I was reading a fic the other day where the author decided that Hook has a magical pouch like Hermione's magical bag where he stuffed all his treasure before handing over the Jolly Roger.  So that's totally my fanwank now as far as where he is not running out of doubloons. 

 

Drunken hook-ups worked for him, just as they worked for Emma. Both of them understand the need for sex without wanting any emotional attachment.

They're both insanely screwed up, aren't they?  That's probably whey they work so well.  And that's probably why they won't be going there for a while unless something hints at it on screen sooner rather than later.  I personally don't see them taking that leap right away at all plus there's a crazy Snow Queen running around.

[Shanna Marie]

I always thought that Emma and Neal were together for a couple of weeks, a month maximum. How do you calculate one year?

That wasn't an actual calculation. That was a stab at the absolute maximum I could imagine, since I couldn't remember any details within the plot to indicate the time frame.

 

But mostly, I was saying that Emma's idea of a "long-term" relationship so far has been very different than Hook's. Hers have been measured in months, his in years. True, the ending of her relationship with Neal was no more voluntary on her part than the ending of his relationship with Milah was on his part, but as wrong as the beginning of the relationship between Hook and Milah was, it seemed like they were on track for it lasting and intended it to last. I'm not sure how well Neal and Emma would have done even if he hadn't run into August and then ditched her. She was very young, he was very irresponsible. They both made some stupid decisions. There was a good chance that it would have imploded or that he would have screwed her over in some other way. I wonder what his reaction to learning he was going to be a father would have been if he'd found out at that time. Given his daddy issues, would he have tried really hard to be different from his dad, or would he have freaked and fled? Or would he have tried, then eventually freaked and fled when it got to be too much?

[ParadoxLost]

I feel the need to get this out before the new episode airs.  Snow and Charming better see the video of teenage Emma and Snow Queen on screen.  If they don't then I predict the caterwauling that follows will make the screeching after Snow didn't bother to notice that Emma almost froze to death seem like a someone singing an aria so beautiful it would make grown men cry by comparison. 

 

The whole point of Snow Queen being Emma's foster or group home mother needs to be about Snow and Charming coming into contact with someone who had a hand in raising their child.

[stealinghome]

The whole point of Snow Queen being Emma's foster or group home mother needs to be about Snow and Charming coming into contact with someone who had a hand in raising their child.

ITA, but if this show has taught me anything, it's that the show will absolutely squander the all potential inherent in the (rich, potential-laden) setup they've built themselves.

[KingOfHearts]

So, in regard to Outlaw Queen, I'm on Regina's side at the moment. For once, she's not forcing someone to love her. She's not wickedly jealous of Marian. In Family Business, she basically told Robin to stop being with the mistress and to go back to his wife. She's done being teased and letting her emotions be played with. This I give her credit for. Robin is a total idiot, and you can rest assured that's true when she's the one making more sense. 

Edited November 3, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Mari]

So, in regard to Outlaw Queen, I'm on Regina's side at the moment. For once, she's not forcing someone to love her. She's not wickedly jealous of Marian. In Family Business, she basically told Robin to stop being with the mistress and to go back to his wife. She's done being teased and letting her emotions be played with. This I give her credit for. Robin is a total idiot, and you can rest assured that's true when she's the one making more sense. 

I have to agree--while I find Operation Mongoose and her anger at Emma completely incomprehensible, Regina is handling Robin himself very gracefully.

[angelwoody]

It just kills me that they took an epic character like a Robin Hood and reduced him to this crap. Why Robin Hood??? There is nothing "Robin Hood" about this loser!

[Rumsy4]

He's being a total d*ckbag, and he knows it. I might even prefer Belle to him. :-p

[KingOfHearts]

 

He's being a total d*ckbag, and he knows it. I might even prefer Belle to him. :-p

It's like Belle wanting to be with Rumple after finding out he murdered her mother... nope, nevermind. That would totally happen.

Edited November 3, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Emma]

He's being a total d*ckbag, and he knows it. I might even prefer Belle to him. :-p

 

It's sad that this just went through my head ... I think I prefer douche to consitpation. Thanks show.

[Rumsy4]

Robin telling Regina he had faith in her would have been cute if it were not for the fact that he is asking the "other woman" to help save his wife's life. His apologies were all so fake. 

[KingOfHearts]

 

How would that conversation go (if Marian wasn't frozen)?

 

I believe Regina's just fed up with Robin baiting her with no chance of divorce. He's leading her on into something that he flat out refuses to do. It's selfish and unproductive. It's like David going after MM in S1 but ten times worse because it's not some cursed-memory mumbo jumbo. He's giving a false promise that hurts not only her, but Marian and Roland as well.

Edited November 3, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

Also, in David Nolan's defense, when he found out Mary Margaret might have murdered Kathryn, he was pretty horrified and immediately distanced himself from her.

 

Contrast that to Robin, who does not care at all that Regina actually murdered Marian in the previous timeline.

Edited November 3, 2014 by stealinghome

[Rumsy4]

 

 Contrast that to Robin, who does not care at all that Regina actually murdered Marian in the previous timeline.

 

He probably doesn't know. Three seasons from now, Adam will reveal on twitter that Robin never knew about that. They never wrote or shot such a scene. That will clear up all confusion. 

Edited November 3, 2014 by Rumsy4

[Serena]

Also, when Robin told Emma that she was the first sheriff he didn't mind helping, I was like "oh, you have a problem with sheriffs but homicidal dictators are just fine, as long as their ass looks good?"

[ImogenLeFay]

Initially, I didn't care the least bit about Outlaw Queen. With the reveal that Regina was about to kill Marian originally, I thought I could never be okay with that pairing and started actively disliking it.

By now with the way Robin is written, I'm starting to actually root for Regina to get far, far away from him, because even she deserves better than that guy. He's the worst.

[YaddaYadda]

Robin is far worst than Regina at this point.  Regina never wants to be second to anyone, so why would she be okay with being the mistress.  This is the only time I'm okay with Regina and that's because she drew her line and she won't cross it.  Marian is on ice and this jerk is all about how he loves Regina?  Seriously?  Because just wow!  There's nothing romantic about that!

[Serena]

Robin is really the worst. "I can't help but think you're avoiding me". YES, BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT YOU DO WHEN YOUR MARRIED EX LOVER TELLS YOU HE WANTS TO STAY WITH HIS WIFE. Jump off a cliff, jerk.

[Curio]

Robin is really the worst. "I can't help but think you're avoiding me". YES, BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT YOU DO WHEN YOUR MARRIED EX LOVER TELLS YOU HE WANTS TO STAY WITH HIS WIFE. Jump off a cliff, jerk.

 

I feel like they were trying to go for a parallel between Regina/Robin in this episode and Emma avoiding Hook in the premiere. But failed...epically.

 

From the episode thread:

If they were trying to sell OQ through scenes like what we got this episode, they're going about it the wrong way. If they had bothered to develop their romance in 3B, more people may have cared.

 

Yeah, the fact that Robin is already saying "I love you" to Regina, even though they've only legitimately introduced them as potential romantic interests half a season ago, is totally rushed. Their love triangle storyline might be less horrible if we had a full 22-episode season of build-up between the two of them. I don't know if it's the lack of chemistry or the horribly written character arcs, but I don't care how many times Robin says the words "I love you," I just won't believe him. Compare that to Captain Swan where they haven't dropped any L-Bombs, yet the audience still clearly knows Hook loves Emma.

 

Maybe the writers should just go ahead and completely assassinate Robin's character and make him kill Marian so he can finally be with Regina. And then Regina of all people would be like What the hell, dude? Even I think that's messed up, and I'm the Evil Queen!

Edited November 3, 2014 by Curio

[YaddaYadda]

I feel like they were trying to go for a parallel between Regina/Robin in this episode and Emma avoiding Hook in the premiere. But failed...epically.

 

But it's not even remotely the same thing.  They shouldn't do that, it does a disservice to OQ more than anything.  Emma avoiding Hook in the premier had to do with her guilt over Regina and being worried that he might die on her.  Regina is avoiding Robin because she isn't able to save his wife and well he has a wife whom he wants to stay with because he has "honor". 

 

If the writers were going for a parallel, then I don't know what they were thinking.  Hook accusing Emma of avoiding him was sort of warranted because of what had gone down the previous day.  They are close, they are also people trying to figure out where they stand with each other.  (And now they look so freakin' happy which means the shit is about to hit the fan in a big way, I might have to avert my eyes).

 

Robin isn't getting his nookie, guess that has him more worried than what's going on with his wife, whom Regina keeps reminding him exists. 

Edited November 3, 2014 by YaddaYadda

[FabulousTater]

I think you guys are looking at this all wrong. I mean, Regina, an unrepentant mass murderer, keeper of sex slaves, who killed Graham because he broke up with her, is getting her chain yanked by Robin Hood, her married lover, and it hurts Regina's "feelings"? Deserved, I say. Deserved, deserved, deserved!

 

Regina's five minute romance comes crashing down and the dude is an insensitive asshat in how he's handling it? Deserved! She had it coming, people! Shiiiit, it couldn't have happened to a more deserving evil bitch. Boo-freakin-hoo. Suck it, Regina. I've moved on from the show ruining Robin Hood (this show excels at destroying the original characters from folklore/fairy tales), so if he's gonna come off as a jerk, I say, dig deeper, Robin, and really twist the knife in her gut next time, it keeps wounds from closing properly. Ha! I'm gonna take pleasure from Robin causing Regina's misery because gawd knows no one else on this show dares hurt St. Victimus The Soul Sucker's feelings.

 

Ya, I'm being mean about it but I don't give a damn. Regina actually not getting what she wants and it sucking for her? Hell freakin ya!

Edited November 3, 2014 by FabulousTater

[Mari]

I think you guys are looking at this all wrong. I mean, Regina, an unrepentant mass murderer, keeper of sex slaves, who killed Graham because he broke up with her, is getting her chain yanked by Robin Hood, her married lover, and it hurts Regina's "feelings"? Deserved, I say. Deserved, deserved, deserved!

 

Regina's five minute romance comes crashing down and the dude is an insensitive asshat in how he's handling it? Deserved! She had it coming, people! Shiiiit, it couldn't have happened to a more deserving evil bitch. Boo-freakin-hoo. Suck it, Regina. I've moved on from the show ruining Robin Hood (this show excels at destroying the original characters from folklore/fairy tales), so if he's gonna come off as a jerk, I say, dig deeper, Robin, and really twist the knife in her gut next time, it keeps wounds from closing properly. Ha! I'm gonna take pleasure from Robin causing Regina's misery because gawd knows no one else on this show dares hurt St. Victimus The Soul Sucker's feelings.

 

Ya, I'm being mean about it but I don't give a damn. Regina actually not getting what she wants and it sucking for her? Hell freakin ya!

There, there, 'Tater.  Let it all out.   You'll feel better. ;)

 

I can't say I'm feeling bad for her--because, well, no.  But I have been surprised that in this one thing, they've actually had Regina respond with a reasonably decent amount of grace.  It just seems out of character, but refreshing.

Edited November 3, 2014 by Mari

[Dani-Ellie]

But I have been surprised that in this one thing, they've actually had Regina respond with a reasonably decent amount of grace.  It just seems out of character, but refreshing.

 

Yes. Regina of a couple seasons ago would have been all, "Nothing I can do for her, sorry. Call me after you've arranged her services."

 

Now all we need is for her to build on that with characters who aren't Robin and Marian, and we'll be good to go! ;)

[FurryFury]

I don't feel sorry for Regina at all, and I definitely feel she deserves to suffer, but thing is, this type of suffering is completely unsatisfying! It's soapy, contrived and infuriating. Worse, it's boring. I'd want her to confront all the people she has hurt, while they're appropriately enraged. I'd want her to lose her magic, her eternal crutch. I'd want for Henry to realize just how much she has abused him. Not Robin being all conflicted between his wife and his wife's murderer.

Edited November 3, 2014 by FurryFury

[Rumsy4]

I admit that I tend to tune out on some of the Robin scenes, but what did they do with frozen Marian? Is she still on the couch? Did they put her in the Snow Queen's freezer? Is she at Granny's?

 

Bwahahaha... Let's hope Granny doesn't lock Ruby in the freezer with Marian when she's having a bad Werewolf day. 

[KingOfHearts]

 

I can't say I'm feeling bad for her--because, well, no.  But I have been surprised that in this one thing, they've actually had Regina respond with a reasonably decent amount of grace.  It just seems out of character, but refreshing.

I don't feel sorry or bad for her, either. She is not the victim here. She's the one walking around and hanging with her son. The victim here is the person who's frozen in a life-threatening condition while her husband is pretty much having an affair. Even if Regina was out of character here, it'll at least save us from some of the pointless drama that is the Triangle of Doom.

 

 

I don't feel sorry for Regina at all, and I definitely feel she deserves to suffer, but thing is, this type of suffering is completely unsatisfying! It's soapy, contrived and infuriating. Worse, it's boring. I'd want her to confront all the people she has hurt, while they're appropriately enraged. I'd want her to lose her magic, her eternal crutch. I'd want for Henry to realize just how much she has abused him. Not Robin being all conflicted between his wife and his wife's murderer.

 

I agree. She's suffering for the wrong reasons. It doesn't teach her anything at all, and it's irrelevant to the real terrors she has inflicted. Thanks to Robin's stupidity, the fact she killed Marian isn't even at play here. Regina has bigger fish to fry and bigger issues to deal with. Outlaw Queen drama is purposeless now. I find her comeuppance to be in a whole other ballpark.

Edited November 3, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

It's not Regina I feel sympathy for.  She deserves what she gets.  Poor Marian though.  While Regina is trying to help her, Robin s going around telling Regina he loves her even though she likely had said wife executed in the past.

 

Robin is such a stand up guy with a flawless code of honor.  Was it supposed to be ironic when he told Emma she's the only sheriff he's willing to help (or whatever dumb thing he said to her).  I mean after all, aren't Prince John and Nottingham bold and audacious as well?

 

He's such a tool!

Edited November 3, 2014 by YaddaYadda

[FurryFury]

I seriously doubt that Sheriff of Nottingham's body count is even approaching Regina's. But hey, she's a victim, it absolves of everything!

Edited November 3, 2014 by FurryFury

[Shanna Marie]

Ya, I'm being mean about it but I don't give a damn. Regina actually not getting what she wants and it sucking for her? Hell freakin ya!

On the one hand, I see your point because of karma. On the other, two wrongs don't make a right, and I don't ever want Regina to be a legitimate victim, which she's close to being here.

 

So I'm all for the consequences of Regina's past actions biting her on the ass in a big way. If Robin had learned about what happened to Marian and had been all "Ew! I need to bathe in bleach! I never want to see you again!" I'd have thrown a freaking parade at that moment (and probably scared my neighbors). But having Robin be all wishy-washy and "I have to be true to my wife but I love you" isn't very satisfying. It makes him look like a jerk for still being in love with the person who was responsible for his wife being taken away from him, and it makes him look like a jerk for stringing Regina along while playing all noble and sticking with his wife. So it's not even a good "Ha, now you know how it feels!" vindication to have Regina actually being badly treated and getting a real reason to be hurt and angry.

[Emma]

I'd enjoy Regina's suffering more if I knew it wouldn't be tied up in a neat little bow for her. She's going to get her happy ending as soon as the writers stop playing around with Marian.

[Mari]

I don't feel sorry for Regina at all, and I definitely feel she deserves to suffer, but thing is, this type of suffering is completely unsatisfying! It's soapy, contrived and infuriating. Worse, it's boring. I'd want her to confront all the people she has hurt, while they're appropriately enraged. I'd want her to lose her magic, her eternal crutch. I'd want for Henry to realize just how much she has abused him. Not Robin being all conflicted between his wife and his wife's murderer.

You're right.  But I can see reasons they'd set it up this way. 

 

It's pretty obvious from the interviews they've given, and the response the characters have to anything Regina related, that they want Regina to be sympathetic and seen as a brave victim of circumstances.

 

Having Regina deal with the ramifications of her actions means dealing with her villainhood, which the show prefers to put a Notice-Me-Not spell on;  it would interfere with their long-term plan for Regina.

 

Focusing the Regina drama on Robin gives them Regina angst not caused by Regina (as long as you ignore that pesky she killed his wife and didn't want him until a week or so ago), thus making Regina a legitimate victim, and heroic for ignoring Robin's advances and trying to help Marian (who she was trying to kill only a few minutes ago.)

 

At the same time, they think they're writing a successful forbidden, possibly tragic, romance for their favorite character.

 

I say think, because I think they're failing miserably.

It's not Regina I feel sympathy for.  She deserves what she gets.  Poor Marian  I mean after all, aren't Prince John and Nottingham bold and audacious as well?

Well, Robin's heterosexual, so no.  They're not.  Sorry--there's only a bold and audacious out if you want to have sex with the person.

Edited November 3, 2014 by Mari

[FurryFury]

Absolutely. I get their way of thinking, but all of their ideas for Regina are so, so bad, my mind simply refuses to process everything. And god, even if they wanted to make her an actual victim of circumstances... Why do it in THIS way? Isn't it obvious people hated the David Nolan/Mary Margaret affair in s1? Why copy it, only without the curse excuse, the benefit of the flashbacks and much, much worse chemistry?

[KingOfHearts]

 

So I'm all for the consequences of Regina's past actions biting her on the ass in a big way. If Robin had learned about what happened to Marian and had been all "Ew! I need to bathe in bleach! I never want to see you again!" I'd have thrown a freaking parade at that moment (and probably scared my neighbors).

This. This is how it should have been handled. If Robin had any of the "code" he speaks of, this is what would have happened. The relationship dynamics are horrendously abnormal. They made Robin a sick person in order to keep OQ alive. It's another example of twisting characters and plot elements to fit what A&E think is best for Regina.

 

Everything about the Triangle of Doom is problematic. There's no satisfying way out!

Edited November 3, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[FabulousTater]

There, there, 'Tater.  Let it all out.   You'll feel better. ;)

Ha! Ooh, if only, Mari. If only.... ;-)

 

I can't say I'm feeling bad for her--because, well, no.  But I have been surprised that in this one thing, they've actually had Regina respond with a reasonably decent amount of grace.  It just seems out of character, but refreshing.

 

It's not in character for Regina, but it is in character for the writers. Look at it this way, Regina has to come out as the victim in every scenario the writers have between her and anyone else. Last season it was Snow was the brat and Regina was nice enough to accept Snow's apology after she ruined her life. This season, Emma gets kicked around and isn't allowed to defend herself because according to The Perma-boner (yes, it deserves capitalizing), Emma ruined Regina's life, and therefore Emma deserves to be verbally eviscerated. That Regina actually ruined Emma's life and has tried to murder Emma many times (starting from her infancy) is irrelevant because it's all about Regina; The Perma-boner is all.

 

With Robin and Regina, the primary directive of The Perma-boner ("It's All About Regina") requires Robin to come off as the asshat. Regina has to look like the better person who's rising above it all, because otherwise the audience might actually start looking at the facts of the matter that Regina murdered Robin's wife, and the fact that Emma saved Marian from being murdered by Regina and that Marian is now living in the present is karmic effing justice. But karmic justice and The Perma-boner don't mix, so the writing makes Regina "rise above it all" and is appropriately cordial with Robin while he comes off looking like the asshat.

 

Remember kids, The Perma-boner is all; It's not out of character, it's just The Perma-boner making it's presence known.

Edited November 3, 2014 by FabulousTater

[Dani-Ellie]

And god, even if they wanted to make her an actual victim of circumstances... Why do it in THIS way?

 

This is what I don't understand. Why have Marian be Regina's victim at all? Why couldn't Emma save her life from like, a careening carriage or something? That way, Regina is completely a victim of circumstance and you don't get the icky "Robin's in love with his wife's murderer" dynamic.

Edited November 3, 2014 by Dani-Ellie