Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[KingOfHearts]

 

He wasn't all about Bae during this time. He was also out looking for ways to gain more power.

I won't dispute that Rumple loved Bae, but finding him was only half the story. The other half was the fact he broke a deal and he needed to fix it. He loved Bae but it really was never about him completely. If it were, he would have sacrificed the power his son actively protested before anything ever happened. Belle and Neal will always have to share with power in Rumple's heart.

 

 

And he still wants his cake and eat it too when it comes to his DimBelle.

 

Yep. Rumple wants the hat now so he can stop lying to Belle but also keep his power.

[Rumsy4]

But Rumple was trying non-magic ways to get to the Land Without Magic (like the Ruby Slippers). We are supposed to believe that it was because of Fate that he never found a way. According to the Seer, Rumple would find his son by casting a dark curse, but he wouldn't be the one to cast it. When he acquired the seer powers himself, the occasional glimpses he caught of the future helped him pin down Cora's daughter as the candidate. Besides, if he had gone to the Land Without Magic any time before, he would not have been able to find his son. Other than a few months spent in Victorian England, Bae was in Neverland for 200 years, and only came to the Real World about 10 years before Rumple was able to locate him. So, it seems as if destiny or fate or whatever, knew what it was doing. And Rumple had so much faith in the prophecy that he knew he would find his son, no matter how long it took.

 

I think losing Bae has shifted Rumple's priorities back to being selfish, power-hungry and self-centered. Being under Zelena's control would have been a stark reminder of his own vulnerability when it came to the Dagger. From a spoilery interview, Carlyle says that

Rumple wants the Hat so badly because it was there before Belle, and would last long after she was dead. It seems as though Rumple is already thinking of Belle as merely a passing phase in his life, and is planning to consolidate his future long after Belle is gone.

I really wish the writers will have the guts to make Rumple go full on dark, and just not redeem him at all. That would be an excellent example of the tragedy of someone who came so close to redemption, but was never able to go all the way. But I doubt that will happen. Belle will probably be the person to ultimately pull him out of darkness or whatever, and that will be his "amazing" redemption arc. 

[KingOfHearts]

That would be an excellent example of the tragedy of someone who came so close to redemption, but was never able to go all the way. But I doubt that will happen. Belle will probably be the person to ultimately pull him out of darkness or whatever, and that will be his "amazing" redemption arc.

 

 

It would be somewhat satisfying to everyone if he's the Big Bad, then gets defeated, then admits his wrong on his deathbed to Belle. I would be fine with that.

[mtsmvfn]

Maybe he is staying with Regina because Elsa is staying at the Charmings. Say what you will about Reginas house but at least there Henry's has his own room. As he said he misses his room.

[Emma]

I had many issues with Breaking Glass but Captain Swan was not one of them.

 

Not thinking about where the boat came from but love that Hook was taking Henry sailing again. Emma's make him wear his vest reminder and Hook's kiss on the cheek. Might be too cutesy for others but blessedly normal in my book.

 

Nothing prepared me for the end scene though with Emma showing Hook her box of childhood mementos. Everything about that scene was precious. Sharing a drink, Hooks may I have the honor, Emma handing the box over, the looks at each other, Hook's smile at her glasses, Emma cuddling her baby blanket, the interlacing of hands and arm over the shoulder.

 

Give me more of these moments please.

[Dani-Ellie]

What stood out to me was when Hook asked if she was okay, Emma said, "I think so." Not "Yep" or "Of course" but "I think so," which allowed for the possibility that she wasn't okay. It was an air of vulnerability that she doesn't let show very often but I think is wonderful because, after shouldering everything on her own for so long, it's nice that she feels like she can be vulnerable around someone.

Edited October 27, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[Rumsy4]

I loved the CS moments. Way better than the Date, IMO, because we actually saw them talking about important things, and getting to know each other. I almost teared up when Emma was clutching the baby blanket to her chest. Of course, they had to end the scene with a plot point, but I won't complain too much about that.

[Lieutenant]

Nothing prepared me for the end scene though with Emma showing Hook her box of childhood mementos. Everything about that scene was precious. 

Totally agree.  And I think that precious is the perfect word to describe it.  Everything that Killian did in that scene showed just how precious Emma is to him.  All of her.  Even the dark and sad parts that she's never shown to anyone. Ever.  You could see it in the way he opened that box, so slowly, but with a look of - I dunno, joy, almost.  Like he couldn't believe that he was getting this glimpse into her life.  Each thing he discovered revealed something new about her.  I just loved his goofy grin over her glasses.  And when she needed it, he was there to wrap his arm around her and share in this little journey to the past.  

 

It was totally perfect.  I continue to be absolutely amazed by what Colin and Jen can convey in these small scenes that are a handful of minutes long a most.

[Shanna Marie]

Everything that Killian did in that scene showed just how precious Emma is to him.  All of her.  Even the dark and sad parts that she's never shown to anyone. Ever.  You could see it in the way he opened that box, so slowly, but with a look of - I dunno, joy, almost.  Like he couldn't believe that he was getting this glimpse into her life.  Each thing he discovered revealed something new about her.  I just loved his goofy grin over her glasses.  And when she needed it, he was there to wrap his arm around her and share in this little journey to the past.

And it was particularly interesting coming after all those scenes of Emma begging Regina for friendship, even as Regina insulted her left and right. When she has something like this, with someone who is interested in listening to her and accepting her and being there for her, why is she groveling at Regina's feet? Not that she doesn't need friends outside her romantic relationship, but the nice thing about the relationship between Emma and Hook is that it's also very much a friendship, and with that model for what a friendship can be, why would she even be interested in chasing after a "friendship" that's so damaging?

 

Yeah, he's currently hiding a secret from her, but he treats her like he values her instead of like he sees her as an inconvenience.

 

Though it would be nice to someday get a role reversal, where she gets to learn about his history.

[Curio]

Though it would be nice to someday get a role reversal, where she gets to learn about his history.

I came to this thread literally to post just that. I absolutely loved seeing Emma letting her walls down and allowing Hook a peek into her childhood, so I hope the writers allow us to witness Emma learning about Hook's Lieutenant days, too. I'd be really disappointed if it got left to an off-screen conversation.

[Ariah]

I'm no SwanQueen fan (far from it, a CaptainSwan die-hard fan here), but I'll bite and let's see what'll come out of it. Judging from the Breaking Glass episode.

 

- A relathionship in which one party is constantly talked down by the other, rejected and shut down as the unworthy / pesky.

- A relationship in which verbal abuse on one part is justified, as the said part is emotionally unstable and a victim in her own mind.

- A relationship in which it is perfectly ok to seek forgiveness from the party one has done nothing wrong against, while the said party has spent a better part of her life trying to either kill or maim the one seeking forgiveness.

 

Errrm, no. These are no grounds for a relationship.

[FurryFury]

I'm still disappointed with Hook catching the idiot ball in the previous episode, but that last scene was actually pretty nice, I have to admit. At least somebody got to cheer Emma up after all the horrible and completely infuriating verbal abuse from Regina.

[YaddaYadda]

I really wasn't expecting to see Hook at all this episode, but I was really pleasantly surprised by the couple moments they threw in there.  Those were very nice and well done and I laughed when he was going through that box and picked up what looked like a mood ring or whatever it was because it was big and I thought he likely got a kick out of it as much as the glasses.

 

He has shown a lot of support and he cares about the things that happened to her in the past and I'm just still hoping that he comes out with the truth about the whole Rumple thing sooner rather than later since things seem to be coming to a head for Rumple and Belle in the previews.

[Mari]

So, one of the things said last night was that Regina had done a lot for Emma, and it's one of the things being written this morning.  Now, I have no problem coming up with a list of things that Regina has done to Emma, but I'm stuck on things she's done for Emma.

 

Apart from giving Emma a couple of magic lessons so that Emma could help with the villain of the month and giving Emma happy memories with Henry when everyone else was pulled back to the Enchanted Forest, what has Regina done for Emma?

Edited October 27, 2014 by Mari

[Souris]

Apart from giving Emma a couple of magic lessons so that Emma could help with the villain of the month and giving Emma happy memories with Henry when everyone else was pulled back to the Enchanted Forest, what has Regina done for Emma?

 

Well, she hasn't killed her. 10,000 gold stars for Regina!

[Mari]

Well, she hasn't killed her. 10,000 gold stars for Regina!

Ha!

 

The thing is, I don't like Regina.  I find her endlessly, pointlessly mean, and with no one calling her on it, her screentime just infuriates me.  I usually watch her scenes, but if I ever watch the episode again, I fast forward through them.

 

I keep wondering if there's honestly something that I've missed, just out of Regina-induced rage blindness.

Edited October 27, 2014 by Mari

[Crimson Belle]

 

Well, she hasn't killed her. 10,000 gold stars for Regina!

Not for lack of trying,  Really, the fact more haven't died is because as evil as she is, Regina generally isn't that effective and pretty much sucks at just about everything she puts her mind to.

[Mari]

Regina generally isn't that effective and pretty much sucks at just about everything she puts her mind to.

Well, that would explain how come she's so very, very bad at becoming a better person.  I thought maybe she just didn't want to, but . . .

[ImogenLeFay]

 

Apart from giving Emma a couple of magic lessons so that Emma could help with the villain of the month and giving Emma happy memories with Henry when everyone else was pulled back to the Enchanted Forest, what has Regina done for Emma?

 

Hey, she totally made her a cake! Turnover... something. She baked for Emma! And how did Emma repay her? By not paying attention and letting Henry steal some.

[YaddaYadda]

Upon second re-watch (of the clips, not the show, I just can't deal...) the last scene with Hook/Emma, I thought was a callback to 306 when Hook asks Emma who she is exactly after she unlocks the map and she replies "wouldn't you like to know". 

 

And someone pointed out last week that Emma going into her parents place was a callback to Good Form after CS' original kiss and how affected by the whole thing Hook was.

 

Sort of interesting that they're contrasting things from last season with this season.  Even 402 with David and Hook trying to rescue Emma reminds me of when she jumped overboard in Neverland and nearly drowned.

[KAOS Agent]

I actually like when Regina and Emma are forced to work together. They are fun frenemies. The relationship between two women who are joined because they share a son is interesting. However, this only works when they are both able to dish it out. If Emma has to sit and take abuse without response especially for an unintentional hurt, that's not interesting television. It's like watching someone kick a puppy. And while I'd love to see Emma just go off on Regina sometime, if Regina just sat there and wasn't Regina-like in her response, I wouldn't enjoy watching that either. 

 

It was so damn uncomfortable to watch the way this relationship was portrayed in "Breaking Glass". I watch this show for the fun and fantasy. This episode didn't bring much of that at all and the inequality in the relationships between characters make me not want to watch anymore. If this was a one off thing, I could probably get past it and assume something was coming soon where Regina would experience some karma for how she treats her "friends", but I've watched this show from the beginning and I've yet to see Regina get the karmic blow back she deserves.

[Curio]

I actually like when Regina and Emma are forced to work together. They are fun frenemies. The relationship between two women who are joined because they share a son is interesting. However, this only works when they are both able to dish it out. If Emma has to sit and take abuse without response especially for an unintentional hurt, that's not interesting television. It's like watching someone kick a puppy.

 

Yes, this. There's a big difference between taking the high road by showing a person kindness (even though they might not deserve it) and completely succumbing to someone who constantly yells at you. This is a crude example, but would it be healthy for me to sit around and take my husband's verbal abuse just because I have faith that eventually my passive-aggressiveness will win him over and make him realize the error of his ways? Why should Emma not be allowed to snap back a little? Even Snow reached her breaking point with Granny and Grumpy during the power outage and yelled at them. 

 

Emma's strongest power is her capacity to love, so it makes sense that she'd want to help bring Regina back to reality by using love and not anger. But Emma is also human, and even the most level-headed and nicest people have their breaking points - especially when they're being yelled at for something that isn't their fault. In my opinion, it would have been more realistic and truer to Emma's character for her to realize you can only give so much love and forgiveness to a person before it becomes their responsibility to change their actions. But I guess that goes against the show's new "don't ever ever ever give up on the people you care about" theme. 

Edited October 28, 2014 by Curio

[KingOfHearts]

The idea of Regina and Emma becoming friends eventually isn't a problem for me, because hey this is Once, but the way it was portrayed in Breaking Glass was beyond stupid. It shows Emma as this desperate woman who can only get unscrupulous out-crowd friends, both in the past and present.

 

Up to this point, I understood Emma feeling guilty about Marian because she's a good person and she would hate to cause unhappiness to anyone. Now that we find out she legitimately wants Regina's approval, she has become a dog on a leash. If Regina's unhappy or dismayed, she goes down with her. She is effectively a slave to her emotions, which is so wrong on so many levels. Emma was the one person on the show (besides Rumple who couldn't care less) who would stand up to Regina, but she's been inducted into the cheerleading squad. 

 

If Emma were her spunky smart self, I could buy her friendship with Regina. But since she's become a different person, it's now part of the eternal replay featuring the enablers looking the other way.

 

It's a sad day.

Edited October 28, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

I absolutely loved seeing Emma letting her walls down and allowing Hook a peek into her childhood, so I hope the writers allow us to witness Emma learning about Hook's Lieutenant days, too.

Or his childhood. If the story he told Bae is at all true, he has a lot more in common with Emma than she realizes. I suppose he might have a thing or two from his past in that satchel of his, but otherwise he likely doesn't have many physical items from his past that he could share with her.

 

I loved that he asked for permission before looking through the box -- no piratical plundering! -- and the reverence with which he looked at each item, as though they really were treasures.

 

The idea of Regina and Emma becoming friends eventually isn't a problem for me, because hey this is Once, but the way it was portrayed in Breaking Glass was beyond stupid.

Yeah, I mentioned in the episode thread that I could see them becoming frenemies, but only if they were really allowed to hash out their issues and come out the other side. Whatever they have going right now, though, seems awfully hollow, just a wallpaper of Emma's groveling on top of some serious cracks, and Regina is likely to rip down that wallpaper anytime she gets irked. Strangely, the comparison that keeps coming to mind is Buffy and Cordelia from Buffy the Vampire Slayer, where they were never best friends but did become allies and frenemies of a sort over time. But Cordy never tried to kill Buffy and didn't kill any of her family members, and they never tried to gloss over some of Cordelia's Mean Girl ways. They could fight monsters together, but Cordelia was never really in Buffy's innermost circle. As Cordy grew and changed, she managed to stay entertaining because she was tactless and said exactly what she was thinking, with no filter, even if she was no longer actively trying to be a bitch. I could see that kind of relationship developing between Emma and Regina, but it would have to be a lot more organic than this, where neither is seeking out the friendship but they have to keep dealing with each other to fight the bad guys and maybe have a knock-down dragout or two between them to get all the unsaid things out in the open. I don't believe they're actually friends based on one episode of Emma groveling and no self awareness at all on Regina's part.

[Camera One]

It's one thing for Emma and Regina to slowly grow to be closer and realize they actually enjoy working together.  It's another to have Emma say flat out, "I was just looking for you to be my friend."  That line would still have been plain weird even if Regina didn't murder her mother in front of her, try to kill her as an infant, destroy her chance of a happy childhood, and massacre a village.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Camera One

[FurryFury]

Strangely, the comparison that keeps coming to mind is Buffy and Cordelia from Buffy the Vampire Slayer, where they were never best friends but did become allies and frenemies of a sort over time. But Cordy never tried to kill Buffy and didn't kill any of her family members, and they never tried to gloss over some of Cordelia's Mean Girl ways. They could fight monsters together, but Cordelia was never really in Buffy's innermost circle.

 

I think Buffy and Faith would be a more logical example (the heroine and the "dark magical girl", excuse my trope-speak), and they never really became friends (allies, yes, but not friends) after Faith betrayed Buffy, despite Faith's redemption making 100x more sense than Regina's.

[RadioGirl27]

Yeah, I think it's time for the show to explore Hook's past and for him to share some of his traumas with Emma. There's something I would like to see adressed, and it's the fact that both Liam and Milah died in his arms, so he must be scared of something like that happening with Emma, and, at some point, he should tell her, especially because she puts herself in danger quite a lot.

[Shanna Marie]

Yeah, I think it's time for the show to explore Hook's past and for him to share some of his traumas with Emma. There's something I would like to see adressed, and it's the fact that both Liam and Milah died in his arms, so he must be scared of something like that happening with Emma, and, at some point, he should tell her, especially because she puts herself in danger quite a lot.

It has been awfully one-sided so far, and while I don't mind that Emma finally has someone that focused on her without really needing or demanding anything from her, for their relationship to develop, the tables need to shift at least a little. While he probably does have some trauma about losing people and is currently utterly alone in the world except for Emma, I did like that he didn't make it about him and kept the focus on her when she confessed her fear of losing him, but it would still be nice if he ever got to tell her he didn't want to lose her because he can't take another loss. His walls are as bad as hers are, but they're less obvious. Her walls are "go away, I don't want to talk about it." His are either "are you okay?" (deflecting the focus away from him) or "have I told you lately how awesome I am?" (keeping anyone from wanting to know more about him). She may need to heal a bit more to get into enough of a comfort zone before she starts to notice and starts to try to know more about him.

[KingOfHearts]

Taking the idea that Hook could have magic from the Magic thread:

 

It wouldn't really be about the magic. It would be about how Emma looks at him, and whether or not the status quo with Captain Swan changes. Emma pictures herself as the Savior with an one-handed assistant tagging along. It's my opinion she feels superior to Hook in some way. (Especially from the comments in 3B... "The only person who saves me is me", "What's he going to do? He's got one hand!") CS has never been very equal. Is Hook even that useful? He seems more like an understanding boy toy to Emma. He's always submitting to Emma, but Emma never submits to him.

Edited October 30, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Curio]

Emma pictures herself as the Savior with an one-handed assistant tagging along. It's my opinion she feels superior to Hook in some way. (Especially from the comments in 3B... "The only person who saves me is me", "What's he going to do? He's got one hand!") CS has never been very equal. Is Hook even that useful?

 

I don't know if superior is the right word, but I get what you're saying. I think Emma isn't yet aware of how much Hook means to her, which causes her to underestimate or under appreciate him. But I don't think Hook gaining powers or magic abilities is the solution to that problem, though. With all of the hints so far this season pointing towards Hook dying, I think it'll take his absence from her life to make Emma realize they're equals in their relationship.

 

There's also something to be said about being a good sidekick, too. Hook might seem useless because he doesn't get all the flashy magical powers to save the day (and he's often the damsel in distress...), but being a supportive friend/sidekick is sometimes just as important as being the savior. If we want to go all Lord of the Rings here, we can try to make some Samwise/Frodo parallels. 

[ShadowFacts]

Taking the idea that Hook could have magic from the Magic thread:

 

It wouldn't really be about the magic. It would be about how Emma looks at him, and whether or not the status quo with Captain Swan changes. Emma pictures herself as the Savior with an one-handed assistant tagging along. It's my opinion she feels superior to Hook in some way. (Especially from the comments in 3B... "The only person who saves me is me", "What's he going to do? He's got one hand!") CS has never been very equal. Is Hook even that useful? He seems more like an understanding boy toy to Emma. He's always submitting to Emma, but Emma never submits to him.

 

There might be something to this.  They may be writing him this way for some reason, hence Rumpel's dig at him about being a puppy. 

[Rumsy4]

That seems like a skewed take on the Hook/Emma dynamic. I never got the idea that she looked down on him for not being magical. That "one-hand" comment was nasty, I grant you, and I would still like to see the writers address it, but she was lashing out at him in her anger. The "The only person who saves me is me" comment is more about how she sees herself as a self-contained individual. However, the reality is that, she has started to opening herself to being taken care of by others after being trapped in the ice-cave and almost dying. 

 

Yeah, Hooks has always played the part of the understanding and supporting partner, but to call him a "boy-toy" seems reductive. He does let Emma set the pace in their relationship dynamic, but I don't see him as submitting meekly to her dominance or anything like that. Their "relationship" has been very one-sided so far, it was particularly bad in 3B, I agree. However, Emma is not closed-off and guarded to him as before. She too has been reaching out to reassure and support him of late. So, I don't think making Hook magical would add anything to their relationship.

[KingOfHearts]

 

There's also something to be said about being a good sidekick, too.

 

Yeah, Hooks has always played the part of the understanding and supporting partner, but to call him a "boy-toy" seems reductive

But if you're not careful, he'll become a Belle or Robin. The only reason he's not is because he's the network's pretty guy to lure in the appeal. He doesn't have any more centrics than Belle. The writers aren't interested in his story or the deeper sections of his character. He's just a prop-up to suit Emma's happy ending.

 

 

If we want to go all Lord of the Rings here, we can try to make some Samwise/Frodo parallels.

 

That's never been Hook's character though. He's always been a take-charge kind of person. I feel like he's been watered down in that regard considerably.

 

So, I don't think making Hook magical would add anything to their relationship.

 

It wouldn't necessarily add to the relationship or make it better directly, but rather challenge it. Does Emma want him for the person or as a sexy sidekick? The answer might be obvious, but it's addressed questions as those that really solidify their connection. It refines the relationship.

 

 

I don't know if superior is the right word, but I get what you're saying.

I agree, I couldn't choose what word to use. Dominate, perhaps.

 

As you can tell, I've been devil's advocate with CaptainSwan this season, haha.

Edited October 30, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Dani-Ellie]

He does let Emma set the pace in their relationship dynamic, but I don't see him as submitting meekly to her dominance or anything like that.

 

And if he wasn't, we'd have even more of the "Hook can't take no for answer" comments than we do. Sometimes I think the guy just can't win.

 

I personally like that he's letting her set the pace. She knows how he feels about her; he's made it quite clear. He's ready to leap into this full throttle. She's not. I like that he's doing as she asked and is being patient with her, and she is responding to it, responding to him. The hand-holding, the touching, the reaches, the hugs, the kisses, the letting him wrap his arm around her shoulder and closing her eyes against the comfort ... those are Emma's grand gestures. She's not going to make some monologue as her declaration of love ... she's going to go in for a kiss. That's just how she is, and I think Hook gets that.

[Curio]

But if you're not careful, he'll become a Belle or Robin.

 

Unless Hook goes the August route and literally gets turned into a cardboard standup, and then has a voice recorder taped to his head that goes on loop saying, "You're not a monster. I love you." ...I doubt he'll ever become Belle or Robin. 

 

As you can tell, I've been devil's advocate with CaptainSwan this season, haha.

 

And please keep it up! These boards would get extremely boring if we all agreed about everything. :)

Edited October 30, 2014 by Curio

[Emma]

I personally like that he's letting her set the pace. She knows how he feels about her; he's made it quite clear. He's ready to leap into this full throttle. She's not. I like that he's doing as she asked and is being patient with her, and she is responding to it, responding to him. The hand-holding, the touching, the reaches, the hugs, the kisses, the letting him wrap his arm around her shoulder and closing her eyes against the comfort ... those are Emma's grand gestures. She's not going to make some monologue as her declaration of love ... she's going to go in for a kiss. That's just how she is, and I think Hook gets that.

 

All of this. Plus no one calls Emma on her shit like Hook does.

[regularlyleaded]

But if you're not careful, he'll become a Belle or Robin. The only reason he's not is because he's the network's pretty guy to lure in the appeal. He doesn't have any more centrics than Belle. The writers aren't interested in his story or the deeper sections of his character. He's just a prop-up to suit Emma's happy ending.

I disagree with this. There is a difference between a character being a prop-up in the story and being an emotionally supportive character for his significant other.

 

Take David, for example. David is always emotionally supportive of Snow and consistently there for her, he has had as few centrics as Belle (3, IIRC) and yet I don't consider Charming a prop-up. Charming has had his own stories, and if you were to remove Snow from the story, Charming can stand on his own as a character. He is a well defined character not someone's propping stick *cough*Henry for Regina *cough*.

 

Just because a defining attribute of the character is that he is emotionally supportive of his romantic partner doesn't make him a prop. I just don't see how showing a man being supportive of his girlfriend/wife/significant other reduces the character to being a prop. And IMO, Hook is following the path that Charming has, in that while he is very emotionally supportive of Emma (because he wants to be and that shouldn't be a bad thing) he stands on his own as a character. You remove Emma from Hook's sphere and Hook still has his own story concerning his (still ongoing) redemption arc. Rumple has him in metaphorical noose at the moment and it will surely start tightening bit by bit.

 

Also, Hook is no prop-up for Emma because Emma as a character doesn't need a prop-up. Her story works whether Hook is there or not. While without Hook it is likely that there wouldn't be a romantic story line for Emma right now, there are plenty of other aspects of Emma's character that could be explored. The validity of Emma's character doesn't live or die on Hook.

 

If you want to talk about prop-up characters, I think the "character" to look at is Henry. Without Henry to validate Regina's Operation Moron, Regina looks more the fool. I mean, they both look like idiots right now, but Henry serves to validate Regina's story/idiocy/Echo Chamber of Lunacy* (*copyright, FabulousTater). IMO, Henry doesn't stand alone as a character. Now that kid is a prop if I've ever seen one.

 

ETA: I in no way see Emma dominating Hook nor Hook dominating Emma. The pairing works for me because they are equals. Neither looks down on the other. Again, there's a difference between being emotionally supportive and being subservient. As far as Hook being a "take charge kinda guy", it's been shown in the past that he's more than willing to follow someone else's lead. He may appear full of himself more often than not, but he doesn't have the ego problem where he's gotta be in charge all the time. We've seen that he's followed his brother's lead as captain and he followed Milah's lead when it came to handling Rumpy. He's assured in who he is and capable of and that's what allows him to let others take the lead. He doesn't need to validate his self-worth by being in charge all the time.

Edited October 30, 2014 by regularlyleaded

[Rumsy4]

Emma and Hook are just starting a proper relationship now. Until now, they have not been a couple in the romantic sense. I don't think it's fair to judge couple dynamics based on what they were as two single people working together on quests.

[FurryFury]

I'll agree with KingOfHearts, for a change. Supportive Hook is pretty boring and I'm not invested in such a dynamic in the least. For me such a romance only works if one of the couple is very emotionally damaged, to the point of breaking, and Emma's far from that. Otherwise, I prefer equal pairings, preferably with both characters having their own arcs and plots. Once never really had any such pairings - during the Snowing romance (which had the best pacing on the show) Charming was of far lesser importance than Snow, Belle is Rumple's prop so obviously it hurts and Robin is a complete non-entity. During 3A, I hoped Hook would fare better, but it looks like he hasn't.

Edited October 30, 2014 by FurryFury

[KingOfHearts]

I do love Captain Swan, and I'm greatful is finally reciprocating Hook's affections. However, I'd like to see them go through some actual trials. They've decided to be together, so now it's time to start digging deeper. It's time to start hashing out stuff like their pasts, their best and worst sides, what they see in the future, and how their relationship is relative to everyone around them.

S4 put full throttle on CS compared to everything in the past, so now it's time to start dealing with the new scenario that's been setup.

 

 

Take David, for example.

Snowing is way more equal than CS, if you ask me. Snow and Charming save each other, while Hook rarely saves Emma from danger. In fact, she's always saving him. Emma is the kind of person who likes to be the hero. She has to fix everyone else's problems. (See: BFF Regina) Hook is called Captain Floor and cannon fodder for a reason - he's just a damsel in distress. 

 

Hook is barely relevant to the show's plot when Emma is removed from the equation. Sure he's got a rivalry with Rumple, but by himself he's stuck with doing the Dark One's bidding. It's no contest. He's the anchored love interest, and that's his main function. It may not be a bad thing, but his character has a lot of untapped potential. 

 

I will say S4 is an improvement with the one-sidedness. Now I need see their relationship fought for in the midst of adversity, especially Emma.

Edited October 30, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

I was afraid it was going to be very unequal when some of the S4 early filming spoilers came out, (and Emma pushing him away out of guilt over Regina), but I'm liking the way they're developing Hook and Emma's fledgling relationship dynamics. They just started dating in the proper sense, and the intimacy and trust seems to be slowly developing. Of course, we have the stupid Hand Curse lurking in the shadows, but that may be how the writers intend to show Emma "fighting" for, and supporting Hook, the way he has been supporting her. We shall see...

[regularlyleaded]

I do love Captain Swan, and I'm greatful is finally reciprocating Hook's affections. However, I'd like to see them go through some actual trials. They've decided to be together, so now it's time to start digging deeper. It's time to start hashing out stuff like their pasts,

But isn't that what the show is doing now? I mean, within the show's own timeline, the characters just decided to start dating, what 2 days ago, and for us as viewers it was just 1 episode ago. So give the characters and writers the chance to get there, for pity's sake. I think there's a measure of wanting to go from 0 to 120 mph right away now that Emma and Hook have decided to start a romantic relationship, but Lord help me I can't believe I'm saying this, give the writers a chance to get there*.

 

I can understand it's a tough wait for some because Hook has always been further along in understanding his own feelings for Emma and Emma only just recently acknowledged to Hook just how much he means to her, that she can't lose him ( and for Emma that's a huuuuge thing to admit). But not all relationships have both people moving in lock step at the exact same pace and starting at the exact same place, and Emma and Hook's relationship happens to be such a case. And for me, what they've done with Emma and Hook's relationship thus far works. God help me, but I'm really liking it**.

 

(* I'm sure I'll regret giving the writers a chance because the writing has fumbled just about everything else on this show, and seeing Emma and Hook's relationship developed is my last hope, so I'm sure the writers will let me down in a spectacular, pull my hair right out of my scalp, set the TV and house on fire, maddening way.)

 

(** Since I like how Emma and Hook have been developed thus far, it's sure to end horribly because the writers hate me.)

[KingOfHearts]

 

But isn't that what the show is doing now? I mean, within the show's own timeline, the characters just decided to start dating, what 2 days ago, and for us as viewers it was just 1 episode ago. So give the characters and writers the chance to get there, for pity's sake.

 

It isn't for the characters' sakes, but the audience's. The audience needs to see what Emma sees in Hook, and vice versa. We've been watching this unfold for a while, even if they just started dating, a slow, smoothing sailing relationship isn't exactly a part of Once. S4 is an improvement, like I said, but I know there's more potential.

 

Agree to disagree. :)

Edited October 30, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[ShadowFacts]

To me, so far they've shown Hook to be smitten, supportive and a sidekick in adventure.  That's all fine.  But they're also showing that his love for Emma makes him vulnerable to being used, and he has been, by Zelena and now Rumpel.  It allows him to be duped.  Formerly, his love for Milah facilitated his lengthy revenge quest, where he did wrong to Belle who didn't at all deserve it.  He grew beyond that, and we all love that development.  Now he again may be making wrong moves based on his love for his new woman.  If they repeat this pattern of him making big mistakes in judgment like that so bad things can happen for Emma who has to fix them, then that will be veering into prop territory.  Who knows with these writers, they're certainly apt to keep retreading the same waters.

[regularlyleaded]

Snowing is way more equal than CS, if you ask me. Snow and Charming save each other, while Hook rarely saves Emma from danger.

But I think you're ignoring something very important here, what Emma needs saving from more often than not isn't physical danger, it's saving from herself. Emma is really great at emotionally beating herself up, she questions her own self-worth constantly, and to a certain extent I would argue that she perceives that her only value is in being The Savior for these people. And so more than being saved from a monster, or a dragon or what have you, Emma needs to be saved from herself. It's actually really refreshing to me that the writers are taking this path with her. Emma is physically confident, very capable, independent, and she does go around saving people from literal monsters. But her achilles heel is herself, and this is where Hook saves her in many ways (IMO). When Emma starts to fall into a well of self-doubt, Hook is there to lend her the emotional support and say, "I believe in you. You can do this." To me that's something very inspiring, more so than Hook saving Emma from a physical monster.

 

And if I may add, we've had 3 full seasons to see Snow and Charming together as a romantic couple, in action, saving each other. It's not fair to say "look how many more times Charming has saved Snow from physical harm!" when we've had 70+ episodes to see it, where as again, Emma and Hook have only been romantically together 2 episodes. But that is neither here nor there, because IMO measuring how many times David has saved Snow's life or Hook has saved Emma's is a superficial (and silly) measuring stick for the worth of a relationship.

Edited October 30, 2014 by regularlyleaded

[Dani-Ellie]

When Emma starts to fall into a well of self-doubt, Hook is there to lend her the emotional support and say, "I believe in you. You can do this." To me that's something very inspiring, more so than Hook saving Emma from a physical monster.

 

This.

 

I, as well, love that they're taking the track of emotional saving versus physical saving when it comes to the two of them. I remember thinking when Gold told Emma she was special at the end of "Queen of Hearts" that that was likely the first time someone who wasn't a ten-year-old boy told her that. This through-line with Hook emotionally supporting Emma and believing in her and saying things like, "I've yet to see you fail" is likely the first time she's ever heard it from someone who really means it. And just like with all of Emma's other delayed firsts, I think it's both heartbreaking and heartwarming to see it play out onscreen.

 

So, yeah, Hook may be getting physically tossed around and Captain Floor but then he comes up with "I'd like to know more about your beginnings" and is showing interest in who Emma is as a person and how she came to be the way she is, and to me that's just as important.

[KAOS Agent]

I'm confused about this argument about how Hook needs to save Emma more. So Emma should only be in a relationship if her boyfriend is constantly saving her? If we're stuck with standards of he doesn't save her as often as she does him, that's not something I want to watch. Emma is a highly capable, independent woman who is constantly facing danger. Sometimes her loved ones are dragged into and need help. This includes people like Henry as well as Hook. And Emma goes out and fights the monsters and rescues her family. Great! A strong female character who works with others, but can do things on her own as well. But now she's got a boyfriend, she needs to be a damsel in distress? Because why? Is it because her boyfriend isn't manly if he's not her physical hero? Supporting her emotionally is a woman's job or something? I'm not particularly feminist, but I am equal opportunity and I don't think I would see these same standards if their roles were reversed.

[Joanh23]

Agree with you Dani-Ellie & I also think they are showing us all these great CaptainSwan moments to show us that Emma is really starting to fall for this guy so when the s**t hits the fan and Hooks life is in danger we'll believe she'll be willing to do anything to save him

[FurryFury]

what Emma needs saving from more often than not isn't physical danger, it's saving from herself.

 

I don't agree. Emma's fine on her own. Sure she may not be the most loving and empathetic person in the world, but it's a process, and she was defrosting fine even without Hook, just with Henry and her parents. Actually, I'd prefer this dynamic to Hook being all supportive, because it felt more genuine. I liked CS for a while, and it was nice to see Emma smile once in a while, but I also loved the element of belligerent and conflict in their relationship, and it all went away.

 

I'm confused about this argument about how Hook needs to save Emma more. So Emma should only be in a relationship if her boyfriend is constantly saving her?

 

No, I thought it meant that the relationship is pretty lopsided as it is, and making Hook more of a character in his own right could fix it. Personally, I don't care about who saves whom, but what I really dislike is when one person is relegated to saving the other emotionally, while the other doesn't really do much in response. 

[YaddaYadda]

Emma has always been shown as someone who can take care of herself.  I don't think she'll ever wait around to be saved.  But Hook isn't just there, he gives her the emotional support she needs when she needs it and he is just there for her and I think he actually enables her magic on some level as well because he gives her the confidence that she can do it.

 

Besides, with all the Hook is going to die at some point this season, I'm sure it will be because he jumps in front of her so that she's not harmed or something to that effect.

Edited October 30, 2014 by YaddaYadda