Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[scenicbyway]

I don't think the writers intended for Emma and Bae to be endgame.  I think the plan was always to set her up with Hook, hence the Naval Officer doll in her nursery and the fact that they stated they wanted Hook on the show in season 1 but it took awhile to get the rights. 

 

I do think they never quite knew what to do with the Emma/Neal relationship beyond getting her pregnant and abandoning her.  It appears that they didn't realize how bad it would look for a grown man to get a teenager pregnant and let her go to jail for a crime he committed.  Even in Manhattan you have Neal telling her that he would've never come near her if he'd known who she was.  He even asked her to pretend like she didn't find him.  He rejected her over and over until he realized Henry was in the picture, but again he decided he wanted her only after his fiancée shot him and turned out to be evil.

 

I feel like they tried to spend whatever time Neal had in Season 3 making up for his past mistakes, but the leap to "hero" was too much for me.  It's great that he went after Henry and wanted them to be reunited after the curse but it also showed he hadn't learned much in 100 years by still wanting to take the easy way out instead of considering the consequences (his potential death) of his actions.

Edited October 11, 2014 by scenicbyway

[Rumsy4]

Yeah--his line in Manhattan that he'd never have gone near her if he had known who she was, makes me pretty sure they never planned on Emma and Neal to be endgame. They named Neal after a notorious conman, after all. Moreover, Henry was in the unique position of having two mothers. I doubt Neal was ever meant to stick around and take on the traditional father role as well. If they wanted Neal/Emma to be endgame, they would have made Neal unaware that Emma had gone to jail (amnesia/kidnapping, etc.,etc..). If anything, they were thrown by the popularity of Neal/Emma IMO, and decided to prolong the angst. Otherwise, Neal was meant to die at the end of S2. Instead, they made MRJ a regular for S3 so it would look "bold" when they finally killed him off.

 

 

Honestly, I think that's exactly what happened. I've always read Neal's "I had no choice" as very unintentionally meta, insofar as the writers really mean was "we needed Neal to have no choice." The writers needed Emma to be alone in jail and pregnant...

 

Agree. They wanted Emma broken and cynical because it would be all the more "amazing" when Emma finally believed in magic. I remember an interview where MRJ said that he kept asking Adam and Eddy why Neal had to send Emma to jail, and they kept giving him the above as the answer. They never came up with an in-story explanation to give him.

[Camera One]

Moreover, Henry was in the unique position of having two mothers. I doubt Neal was ever meant to stick around and take on the traditional father role as well. If they wanted Neal/Emma to be endgame,

 

That would explain why they made Neal a non-entity with Regina when he got to Storybrooke, and they didn't do anything with him.

 

I remember an interview where MRJ said that he kept asking Adam and Eddy why Neal had to send Emma to jail, and they kept giving him the above as the answer. They never came up with an in-story explanation to give him.

 

That must have been kinda frustrating for the actor to play the role.  Adam and Eddy seemed to think they did not need to write the situation any differently.  As per usual for them, of course.

[stealinghome]

That must have been kinda frustrating for the actor to play the role.  Adam and Eddy seemed to think they did not need to write the situation any differently.  As per usual for them, of course.

I have often, often thought that this show would be 100x better if the actors wrote it.

[Rumsy4]

That would explain why they made Neal a non-entity with Regina when he got to Storybrooke, and they didn't do anything with him.

Oh, I'm convinced that if Neal was meant to stick around, Regina would have thrown a fit in-story. The writers only introduce angst and conflict when they are invested in something.

Moreover, Lana was already complaining about Emma "taking Henry away" from his adopted mother (never mind that she is a mass murdering rapist). The writers would not make the mistake of bringing the bio father permanently into the situation as well. After all, Regina's happiness is more important than any one else's.

[KAOS Agent]

The way Neal was written in Season 2, it seemed like the only relationship Neal was affected by was the one he had with Rumpel. All of the Neal flashbacks/comments involved Neal wanting to stay far away from his father. It was never about what was best for Emma despite whatever story they may be trying to peddle now. Neal was in hiding. He'd never have gone near her. She was close to breaking the curse which was a problem because daddy was soon to come looking for him, not the possibility that Emma was soon to be free. Given that he immediately started dating Tamara after finding out Emma might be available says a lot to me. It was always about Neal/Rumpel not Neal/Emma. Emma was a mistake for Neal and he dropped her and ran the instant he figured that out.

[Rumsy4]

Emma was a mistake for Neal and he dropped her and ran the instant he figured that out.

Word. It was only when he had already reunited with Rumple, realized he had a son, AND lost Tamara, that he wanted Emma back in his life. She was never a priority.

[Jean]

I think they originally wanted a real triangle like Jack/Kate/Sawyer, because they are obsessed with Lost and love triangles. Big time. However by the time Tallahassee was filmed or aired they changed their minds. I have to believe that they ditched Neal and Emma when they wrote Manhattan. These writers are so cheesy they're Velveeta. The writers that gave us splitting a heart and chipped cup and that damn always find you line comes up with Manhattan? Really?

If Neal and Emma were endgame A&E would've had him in a monastery with a flock of 50 swans as pets and drooling in a corner repeating Emma over and over. They are all about the "grand gestures." Style over substance. Instead we got Tamara and hey please lie to daddy and we'll never have to see each other again. Oh and I hurt you? Haha Emma you so funny. Does that sound like their m.o?

[patchwork]

If the deleted Henry/Rumple scene is taken as canon, cut for time reasons rather than a plot point they changed their minds about, then not even Henry remembers what a douchbag Neal was to his mother. Emma's not going to say anything to anyone about the part Neal played in sending her to jail so I high doubt Snowing are ever going to know.

 

What purpose would it have now that he, and August, are dead and they've gone so far as to named their son after him? S3 was the time for all of this to come out. Hook makes a comment (unabashed CS shipper here plus he can read Emma like a book), it makes Snowing start to wonder and question Emma then Pan being the scamp he is spills the beans.   

 

The Neverland arc is second to only the missing year in wasted potential. 

[stealinghome]

Yeah, I agree that at this point, it's never going to come out (unfortunately). Now that Neal's dead, really it would serve no purpose.

[KingOfHearts]

I'm not really a fan of romantic angst stuff on this show. None of the couples really satisfy me, even CS. They all just seem overplayed to get tumblr shares, like it's written to get teenaged girls to squee. As much as I appreciate an epic romance, there hasn't been much of it since 3A.

S1 and 2A were focused more on family than romance, with S1 even focusing on friendships. The relationships on the show were more organic because they didn't immediately call for romantic involvement. Two characters could be close together without kiss angst.

I do like romance, but lately it's been coming out of a can to please shippers. It doesn't feel as true or believable. (See: Rumpbelle and Outlaw Queen.)

[ShadowFacts]

You nailed it, KingOfHearts.  There's no "there"  there, as they say.  I'm not buying any of it.  Rumbelle is sick and twisted, Outlaw Queen, well, I just can't get behind manufactured, stolen pixie dust soulmatehood, and even for Emma I want something better.  Hook is fine, like his path of remorse and his caring for Emma, but it's not lighting me on fire.  I dislike the emphasis on these romances, it is coming out of a can as you say.

[retrograde]

I too would rather the show focused less on romance, but I think cheesy love stories are kinda part of of the show's fairy tale DNA. I accept that they're an inherent fixture and can enjoy most them generally, but the problem for me is when the characters are defined by their romantic relationships. I see the showrunners get frustrated on Twitter with fans who only view the show through their own "ship" and how that pairing is "treated" and I get why that must be maddening at time, but by the same token, there really isn't much else going on with characters like Belle and Robin. 

[Rumsy4]

Snow and Charming were my favorite romance/couple in S1&2, but I was watching the Show for so many reasons--not just the romantic relationships. I will admit however that Captain Swan is part of what revived my flagging interest in the Show in S3, as I was ready to give up by the end of S2. However, the manufactured angst in 3B for Emma and CS, and the Regina-glorification almost made me stop again. But here I am, still watching... The writers  are still capable of good writing, but their focus seems to have changed almost completely from what it used to be. Most of the time, it feels like they force the characters developments each season to fit the plot of the story they want to tell, and that's partly because they want to play with different fairy tales/stories each half-season.

 

They choose a story, then try to slot them into the narrative of ONCE, even though they are fitting square pegs into round holes half the time. That's how we ended up with Peter Pan as Rumple's father, and Zelena as Regina's half-sister, even if it doesn't fit naturally with the story they were telling us until that point. And this is continuing to happen in S4 as well. That's why all these 'significant' relationships end up feeling artificial, and detract from the flow. I have severely toned down my expectations now, and have to accept that Plot is going to trump proper character development any day. Key relationships like Emma/Snow are going to be put aside in favor of Regina/Snow even when it doesn't make sense. Regina's long-term abuse of Henry is white-washed with True Love's kiss. And no one is ever allowed to react naturally to any development.

 

As for the romance, it's become almost solely driven on manufactured angst and plot. CS blows hot and cold every other episode. The Rumbelle marriage is disturbing, because it is founded on a lie, and there are aspects of control on both sides. And yet, we are supposed to believe that Rumple really loves Belle, and that Belle is not a blind hypocrite. The Regina/Robin epic Love seems based on desperation on one side, and lust on the other. For a show that pretends to put so much importance on choice, the whole basis of OQ seems to be predestination.

 

Even Snow and Charming have become less fascinating to me. It's great that they love each other so much, but the way they failed to prioritize Emma in S3 made me feel that their love for each other is a little too exclusive. There is a severe lack of balance in the interpersonal relationships. Despite the show trying to convince us in S1 and 2 that being a family is not dependent on blood or marital bonds, "family" has become an easy reason to overlook and excuse abuse and atrocities. Non-familial and non-romantic friendships have been ignored. Grumpy is reduced to being a town-crier. There is no push by the writers to bring back characters like Red or Tinker Bell in a semi-regular basis, and that's because the cast has become bloated and unmanageable with the addition of tons of new characters every half-season. So, we get no layering of existing relationships to deepen them, and they remain dealt with on a superficial level (like the Anna/David friendship). Georgina Haig is great as Elsa, and it will be nice for Emma to have a proper friend, but then, she'll be gone by end of the Season. I feel like they are missing out on developing existing bonds in favor of introducing new characters. Romance does add to the appeal of the Show, but I think the writers are failing to balance it properly. 

 

I apologize for the essay, and if you read through it all, thanks! :-)

Edited October 12, 2014 by Rumsy4

[KingOfHearts]

It's not romance itself that bothers me, but the quality is sacrificed for quantity. We've got four main couples going on now, and half of them are fundamentally flawed. Of course comparing to Snowing in S1 is unfair, because it was such an epic, but it was earned. The other couples, minus maybe CS, are rushed to make sure everyone gets a love interest. It's a coverup for weak character relationship writing. Instead of writing something real, they slap a True Love label on it.

Edited October 12, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Even Snow and Charming have become less fascinating to me. It's great that they love each other so much, but the way they failed to prioritize Emma in S3 made me feel that their love for each other is a little too exclusive. 

 

As stealinghome has said before, the writers segregate the couples and write for them without considering their other relationships (with the exception of Regina).  In Season 3, they wrote Snow/Charming and Emma/Hook/Neal separately, so that (as an example) even though Emma in the Echo Caves heard what was happening in the Snow and Charming revelations, she was subsequently slotted in with Hook and Neal, even though the Emma/Snow/Charming issues should have gotten their own episode to be fleshed out.  This happened again in 3B with Snow/Charming only working with the baby plot.  To an extent, this is still true in Season 4.  It's almost like they do planning sessions built around a couple instead of around each character.  For example, Emma as a character still has so many emotional and personal issues to work through that has nothing to do with Hook.  Yet, her discovery of home in 3B was paired with him, and they even wanted to pair "Lost Girl" in 3A with him.  That's why to me, Season 3's sudden shift towards romantic relationships and Captain Swan in particular has hurt many characters including Emma as a character.  Since I'm not as invested in romance, it has made this show less interesting and more fangirl-ish to me.  

 

I would be fine with it, if the writers balanced the screentime, giving Emma equal amounts of significant screentime to work with Henry, Snow, Charming and the other townspeople, but they don't.  And a lot of that also has to do with Regina monopolizing time.

 

 

 

There is no push by the writers to bring back characters like Red or Tinker Bell in a semi-regular basis, and that's because the cast has become bloated and unmanageable with the addition of tons of new characters every half-season. So, we get no layering of existing relationships to deepen them, and they remain dealt with on a superficial level (like the Anna/David friendship).

 

There is so much potential in those supporting characters, and it's a shame they're not used except as simple cameos.  

 

I think superficial is the key word, since these relationships have no depth.  David's character and personality could have been fleshed out in "White Out" but the forced David/Anna interactions resulted in the writers making David's backstory fit Anna and the "Frozen" mythology rather than David/Charming as a character.  In the latest convention, Adam said, "[With the "Frozen" cast], we just want to be true to their characters."  But how about being true to the original characters of the show!

 

 

 

As for the romance, it's become almost solely driven on manufactured angst and plot. CS blows hot and cold every other episode.

 

I think CS has fared extremely well in the context of all the other relationships, both romantic and non-romantic, on this show.  They have taken a lot of time and written a lot of character dialogue for them (at the expense of Emma's family relationships) and while it's currently a little hot and cold, thus far, it can be explained organically in terms of Emma's mindset.  Their actions in the first two episodes of Season 4 does not reflect negatively on either Emma or Hook, which is a huge feat considering how Belle and Robin are portrayed in those other two big love stories this season.

Edited October 12, 2014 by Camera One

[Serena]

You know, I really loved Snowing in S1, and I agree them and CS got the best written relationship development, but thinking back, a little bit of it is S1 rose-colored glasses. Like, sure, OQ was rushed, but Snowing kind of was too. They met in Snow Falls, had their adventure, and then in the next Snowing episode (chronologically), they were already in love. I admit I went a little "WTF" at that. I wish they had given them a few more adventures before full-out love.

[Camera One]

They met in Snow Falls, had their adventure, and then in the next Snowing episode (chronologically), they were already in love. I admit I went a little "WTF" at that. I wish they had given them a few more adventures before full-out love.

 

I remember being so disappointed in that!  In "Snow Falls", I thought, wow, how refreshing that they will become friends first.  But then, the next time we saw in them in a flashback, they were already in love.  So you're right that they have never done/developed romance well.  And then S1 was basically a whole bunch of contrived obstacles thrown in Snowing's way including Snow basically getting amnesia, Charming getting engaged to another woman, one of them being kidnapped, etc.  Straight out of "Days of Our Lives".

[KingOfHearts]

You know, I really loved Snowing in S1, and I agree them and CS got the best written relationship development, but thinking back, a little bit of it is S1 rose-colored glasses. Like, sure, OQ was rushed, but Snowing kind of was too. They met in Snow Falls, had their adventure, and then in the next Snowing episode (chronologically), they were already in love. I admit I went a little "WTF" at that. I wish they had given them a few more adventures before full-out love.

Snowing was already a well-established pairing though. OQ has to break-up a classic couple just to be eligible.

[Rumsy4]

I think it was different with Snowing because they were presented as an established couple to us, and their chemistry was off the charts. I was able to buy love at first sight for them, but I just can't with Robin and Regina. CS is the current best written romance in the Show, and though I was not happy with certain parts of 3B, I'm still very much on board the CS ship. 3B wasn't good for Emma's character development until the very end. I didn't think Emma's relationship with Neal was ever resolved properly, and her character suffered from too much New York angst, with zero focus on her relationship with her parents. She had almost no role in 3B. With the introduction of Frozen, it seems like the writing will focus a little more on Emma, but then, it seems like a lot of Emma's focus will be on Regina as well. So, I'm not too optimistic, but still somewhat hopeful. We shall see...

Edited October 12, 2014 by Rumsy4

[stealinghome]

You know, I really loved Snowing in S1, and I agree them and CS got the best written relationship development, but thinking back, a little bit of it is S1 rose-colored glasses. Like, sure, OQ was rushed, but Snowing kind of was too. They met in Snow Falls, had their adventure, and then in the next Snowing episode (chronologically), they were already in love. I admit I went a little "WTF" at that. I wish they had given them a few more adventures before full-out love.

I think it was different with Snowing because they were presented as an established couple to us, and their chemistry was off the charts.

This. I agree that we tend to have rose-colored glasses when we talk about S1--while S1 Snowing is still the best romance story the show has written to date (sorry, Captain Swan fans), it was hardly perfect. I've always agreed that what's really missing for them in S1 is an adventure between 'Snow Falls' and '7:15 AM'--we didn't need multiple episodes, just one, but the jump from 1x03 to 1x10 was too fast. But Ginnifer Goodwin and Josh Dallas had/have such crazy chemistry that they were able to cover up (and still do cover up, 3x19 comes to mind) a lot of the writing fails for Snowing. Also, while they may have fallen in love too fast, Show and Charming still had a serious struggle to be together. None of the other main couples have faced anywhere near that kind of fight, or have had to show anywhere near that level of devotion to each other and tenacity, just to have more than 5 minutes alone, let alone to try to have an actual relationship!

Edited October 12, 2014 by stealinghome

[RadioGirl27]

The romance in this show is, generally speaking, really badly written, with different levels of bad: Snowing is almost good, Captain Swan is mostly acceptable, Outlaw Queen is just ridiculous and Rumbelle is simply disgusting.

And, while my love for Hook and Emma is the only reason that keeps me watching the show, I hate that romance has become the center of the show.

Edited October 12, 2014 by RadioGirl27

[stealinghome]

I hate that romance has become the center of the show.

Agreed. It amazes me that the writers haven't realize that S1, which was by far the least romance-centric season, was the most successful. They have no ability to make correlations here....

[Rumsy4]

Also, while they may have fallen in love too fast, Show and Charming still had a serious struggle to be together. None of the other main couples have faced anywhere near that kind of fight, or have had to show anywhere near that level of devotion to each other and tenacity, just to have more than 5 minutes alone, let alone to try to have an actual relationship!

There is a difference between Snowing and CS, in that CS is a romance developing in real time. There is no part told in flashback, and they're not an established couple. While I think that the Emma/Hook romance is seriously lopsided at the moment, and the writers are sure to throw manufactured angst at them, I feel like there's at least some explanation of why Emma side of things are moving at snail's pace. They didn't move from 0 to 100 in 2 seconds because of silly reasons like pixie dust. And there's always been a sense of deep caring on Emma's side, even as she wanted to run away from love. I read an excellent meta (http://hellowherearemypeople.tumblr.com/post/99783035820/learning-to-love-and-to-be-loved-has-been-a-challenge) on how Emma realized she was hurting Hook by withholding affection from him, and that's why she was openly affectionate with him when she was rescued from the Ice Cave. Hopefully, we'll get to see Emma as devoted to Hook, as he is to her over the course of the season. And hopefully, they'll continue to flesh them out independently of each other as well. 

The less said about Outlaw Queen, the better. In fact, I can't come up with anything more than pixie dust to explain their epic romance, and why Regina's Happy Ending is RUINED because Marian's back!! Robin is a blank slate, and he seems like a pushover with a twisted code of honor. I just can't bring myself to care about him or their romance.

Skin Deep was the best episode for Rumbelle. After that, despite all the angst and separation, there's very little of substance to hold on to. Does Rumple value Belle as a person? I'm not sure he does. He was ready to let her die along with the Town when he thought Neal had died. And he used her naivety to his advantage in concocting an alibi for Zelena's murder. And Belle is a little too blindly devoted to Rumple for anyone's good. And there's the whole icky issue that she can control him any time using the Dagger, except that it's fake, etc., etc.. Rumple needs to interact with Emma, Charming, Hook, Regina and other cast members. He's been near-confined to Belle or one-off villains for far too long! I could care less about Belle at this point. But yeah, I agree that A&E are hardly experts when it comes to writing romance.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I hate that romance has become the center of the show.

This show basically says you have to either be romantically involved or blood-related to have a close relationship with someone. Platonic friendships are not allowed. Ever. It's like A&E have no interest in exploring organic connections. There are no "BFFs" in Storybrooke. The only exception is Elsa/Emma, and we all know that's probably not going to last long.

 

Why do villains have to be related to someone to be intimidating? It's a handicap. Cruella DeVil was not Pongo's aunt, and Ursula wasn't Ariel's cousin twice removed. I don't get why this show can't explore relationships and dynamics that happen because of interaction instead of contrivances like pixie dust or surprise half-sisters.

Edited October 12, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

I don't get why this show can't explore relationships and dynamics that happen because of interaction instead of contrivances like pixie dust or surprise half-sisters.

I think it's two things. They're become way too invested in the SHOCK! and SURPRISE! method of writing--like, one of the things they clearly heard from fans after S1 was that the twists and turns and changes to the original fairytales were awesome. And they were! But they were enjoyable because they were interesting surprises layered onto (generally) decent-to-good writing; they provided sizzle on top of the steak, so to speak. But it just feels like the writers have chucked a lot of the substance out the window and now the "surprise," the flash, has become the substance. We have sizzle, but no steak. So therefore nothing to eat.

 

But also, to me, it actually indicates a lack of confidence in their writing. If what they're saying is essentially "villains have to be related to the heroes for the conflict to matter," what they're really saying is "we don't trust ourselves to write compelling villains and villain/hero relationships, so we are going to bring in this relationship that should heighten the stakes so that people will care." But the problem there is that if the villain isn't compelling, the family relationship isn't going to matter. It's an artificial, lazy, ineffective way of "upping the stakes" that all the viewers see right through. Ditto for the pixie dust--to me, it's a way of saying "we don't trust that we can write this romance compellingly, so we're going to Insta-OTP it as a shortcut!" Except, guys, it STILL doesn't make it compelling....

Edited October 12, 2014 by stealinghome

[Mari]

I think it's two things. They're become way too invested in the SHOCK! and SURPRISE! method of writing--like, one of the things they clearly heard from fans after S1 was that the twists and turns and changes to the original fairytales were awesome. . .

 

But also, to me, it actually indicates a lack of confidence in their writing. If what they're saying is essentially "villains have to be related to the heroes for the conflict to matter," what they're really saying is "we don't trust ourselves to write compelling villains and villain/hero relationships, so we are going to bring in this relationship that should heighten the stakes so that people will care."

Also, if they didn't have the contrived related reason, they'd have to give them other motives.  For example, if they'd gone with what I wanted (Zelena wanted revenge for Regina toasting her village), they'd have to deal with actual ramifications of Regina killing that village, and that would interfere with what they want to write about, Regina the Victim.

 

They don't seem to want to do that.  By making the villains related, they could focus entirely on what they thought of as new Regina, and new Rumple, without having Regina and Rumple actually do any of the work of reforming.

 

I'm not sure if it's a lack of confidence, or overconfidence in their writing.  They do not seem to be making any changes in the dynamics, which a lack of confidence would likely do.  From what we've seen so far, they're ploughing ahead with the same character dynamics as 3B, which ??????

[Camera One]

Also, if they didn't have the contrived related reason, they'd have to give them other motives.  For example, if they'd gone with what I wanted (Zelena wanted revenge for Regina toasting her village), they'd have to deal with actual ramifications of Regina killing that village, and that would interfere with what they want to write about, Regina the Victim.

 

Another reason for giving the villains a family connection was to allow them to do more cross-pollination in the flashbacks.  So the Zelena backstory could include Cora, for example.  Adam and Eddy said in the clip show that they really wanted to answer the question, why was the Wicked Witch green.  So they needed someone to be jealous of Regina, and a victim of hers would not work.  I think a better route would have been Rumple's other magical apprentices.  But I think what they *really* wanted to do was to go back another generation to show how Snow White's family screwed over the Mills women, to "balance out" the sins of Regina vs. Snow.  To have lines, like "It's complicated" and "I thought our family were the good guys.", etc.  They probably think this makes the show so deep and complex.

Edited October 12, 2014 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

But I think what they *really* wanted to do was to go back another generation to show how Snow White's family screwed over the Mills women, to "balance out" the sins of Regina vs. Snow.  To have lines, like "It's complicated" and "I thought our family were the good guys.", etc.  They probably think this makes the show so deep and complex.

 

Word. They like shitting on the good guys. Good guys can have flaws, but to equate that to rape, mass murder and abuse, is ridiculous. 

[Dani-Ellie]

Especially because Eva wasn't even really in the wrong! Cora was trying to get away with marrying someone under false pretenses. Eva could maybe have been less catty but I think Leopold still deserved to know.

[Mari]

Another reason for giving the villains a family connection was to allow them to do more cross-pollination in the flashbacks.  So the Zelena backstory could include Cora, for example.  Adam and Eddy said in the clip show that they really wanted to answer the question, why was the Wicked Witch green.  So they needed someone to be jealous of Regina, and a victim of hers would not work.  I think a better route would have been Rumple's other magical apprentices.  But I think what they *really* wanted to do was to go back another generation to show how Snow White's family screwed over the Mills women, to "balance out" the sins of Regina vs. Snow.  To have lines, like "It's complicated" and "I thought our family were the good guys.", etc.  They probably think this makes the show so deep and complex.

Seriously?  Oz and the Enchanted Forest are both magical lands.  Of course someone's going to be green at some point.  That's possibly the least interesting part of the story.  No wonder I'm constantly disappointed at the writing choices.  And if they wanted to stick with jealousy, and wanted Regina to be blameless in this case, they could have easily gone with the apprentices plan you had--Cora at one point was an apprentice, and Rumple actually had feelings for her.  They could've made Zelena greenly jealous of Cora for that, and her vendettaing against Regina because Cora was dead and that's the closest to revenge she could get.

 

And, yes, you're right--it probably was supposed to make us think badly of the White family.  Which always makes me hostile and confused.  Because fraud and theft are wrong, and reporting them?  Not so much. 

[KingOfHearts]

 

Cora at one point was an apprentice, and Rumple actually had feelings for her.  They could've made Zelena greenly jealous of Cora for that, and her vendettaing against Regina because Cora was dead and that's the closest to revenge she could get.

 

My idea was of bitter rivals. Zelena was effectively Regina's counterpart in Oz, terrorizing everyone. The jealousy came from Rumple using Regina to cast the dark curse instead, so Zelena's goal was to make Regina miserable then cast the curse herself. I wish they would have made her Regina's equal instead of an overpowered brat who had little to do with her.

 

Even though Cora and Regina had connections to Zelena, they didn't even know her. The only person in the cast who it really mattered she knew was Rumple.

Edited October 12, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

 

Ditto for the pixie dust--to me, it's a way of saying "we don't trust that we can write this romance compellingly, so we're going to Insta-OTP it as a shortcut!"

 

I don't understand how anyone can think an instant OTP before the characters even meet is going to be compelling. There's nothing to root for. They're true loves whether they like it or not. I was prepared to be okay with Outlaw Queen, but I was never invested because there's not even a need to fight or feel worried that their partner isn't The One. Pixie dust says it is. Couple that with a truly limited and confusing romantic story line and I was just bored with them long before the Marian reveal made me revile the entire idea. Maybe they thought that because it worked for the Snowing romance, it would work here? The problem is that Snowing was an established couple from the beginning and while their epic romance was told in the past (and I agree it was way too fast), they were also showing their romantic struggles in the present in their cursed personas. It was an interesting and unique way to tell their story. Pixie dust says it's True Love is not. 

[Serena]

And, yes, you're right--it probably was supposed to make us think badly of the White family.  Which always makes me hostile and confused.  Because fraud and theft are wrong, and reporting them?  Not so much. 

Seriously, why do Adam and Eddy think reporting a crime is wrong and makes you as bad as the criminal? Are they in the mafia?

[InsertWordHere]

Seriously, why do Adam and Eddy think reporting a crime is wrong and makes you as bad as the criminal? Are they in the mafia?

I think Regina has gotten her hands on their scripts and forced them to rewrite them from the villains' POV. It's the only explanation.

Edited October 13, 2014 by InsertWordHere

[Ariah]

Just a little side note triggered by me reading some tumblr posts on how Outlaw Queen is romantic.

 

I just hope I'll never have the opportunity to be in a romantic relationship with a person who considers OQ romantic. I know I sound harsh. But let's face it, justifying the person you love for doing bad things (whether she's been murdering villages and raping town sheriffs or hitting you in the face with a kettle) is not a sign of a healthy relationship. From this moment, anything goes.

 

I get it, people change. And a mass murderer can (supposedly) change because of love (Draco in leather pants tv trope, anyone?). I'm pretty sure I would have shipped Regina with her True Green Pixie Dust Love IF it wasn't a relationship that needs to break apart a family in order to happen. 

 

Do the showrunners really want to send a message that it's ok to be happy even if you have to break a family apart? A family that used to be happy before the curse, not a twisted cursed version of the family David had with Abigail. Should kids and young adults consider this appropriate and justified?

 

Tumblr shows me they do... I'm really shocked.

[scenicbyway]

Are we supposed to be reading more into Snow not putting down baby Neal, not even letting his father hold him?  She is literally clinging to Neal and won't let him go....much like she clung to the idea of Emma and Neal the past couple of seasons.

 

I like that Charming got a glimpse into Emma's past with Neal with the breaking into the Ice Cream shoppe.  Perhaps we'll get a new baby naming ceremony?

[stealinghome]

Are we supposed to be reading more into Snow not putting down baby Neal, not even letting his father hold him?  She is literally clinging to Neal and won't let him go....much like she clung to the idea of Emma and Neal the past couple of seasons.

I think it's more that after losing her newborn to a curse and not seeing her again for 28 years, and then having baby Nealflake ripped from her arms and almost sacrificed to a crazy time-traveling ceremony, she's so paranoid about losing Nealflake that she literally can't even bear to put him down. Which, fair. I can't say I wouldn't feel the same in her situation.

 

I don't see how Snow ever clung to the idea of Emma and Neal.

[Mari]

I like that Charming got a glimpse into Emma's past with Neal with the breaking into the Ice Cream shoppe.  Perhaps we'll get a new baby naming ceremony?

That was not only a fun scene--I like the Emma/David scenes--but telling.

 

Earlier, we were discussing how Snow and David could name Nealflake after Neal did everything he did to teen Emma--well, I think this was a step toward confirmation that Snow and David actually know almost nothing about the Emma/Neal relationship. 

[Rumsy4]

David and Snow both know that Emma was in jail for stealing. They also know she's a bail-bonds woman in her other life. If anything, it's odd that the show keeps attributing Emma's breaking and entering skills to what Neal taught her when she was 16/17. I'm sure she honed various skills related to her job over the years. I don't say my science teacher taught me how to boil a beaker of water in 1991 whenever I do an experiment. But whatever, show... you like to name drop Nealfire, while it took 4 seasons for someone to mention Graham's name in the same episode where you have Henry claim Regina was not a villain as written in the book. Okay.

[YaddaYadda]

I'll be happy if Henry never ever goes near Emma again.  I mean the whole reason he brought Emma to Storybrooke was to break a curse Regina enacted, taking away everyone's happy endings.  That story book he read cover to cover shows the things Regina did to people, including hiring Graham to kill Snow and then taking his heart when he didn't deliver on the job he was supposed to do.  And he was convinced Regina had something to do with Graham's death and the man was the first one to believe.

 

So Henry can go move with Regina, do his Operation Mongoose off screen or something.  I can't with that child.

[Rumsy4]

Henry's also keeping a secret from Emma, and Regina is encouraging it. Way to be a co-parent! And no, show, this is not the same as Operation Cobra. 

[Emma]

Operation Cobra was one of my favorite things in season 1. Secret mission between mother and son with some real good accomplished while mixing in some dorkiness. It had its warts but it was fun watching them bond, fail, and then succeed.

And now they've completely tainted it by giving it to Regina and for all the wrong freaking reasons.

I know I shouldn't be surprised as they like stripping Emma of things that made her special by giving them to Regina but this one really leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

[Guest]

The show sprinkles a little character motivation in with plot and I get my hopes up, way too high, that there is a method to the relationship madness,

 

Snow Queen is all about Emma.  There was something very maternal about her first reaction to Emma.  And then her encounter with Rumpel was all about Emma (not Elsa and Frozen).

 

I think we are due for a flashback where Snow Queen plays a maternal role in Emma's life that is compared to the present with Regina and Henry.

 

Add to that, they are making a point strengthen Emma's bonds with David and dismantle any type of close relationship with Snow.  I think we may see this come to a head when Snow is faced with someone who got to Mother Emma when she was still a child.  If Snow Queen played a part in Emma's formative years, they can also parallel Regina/Henry/Emma to Snow Queen/Emma/Snow.

[Shanna Marie]

I don't understand how anyone can think an instant OTP before the characters even meet is going to be compelling. There's nothing to root for. They're true loves whether they like it or not.

It's a huge trope in paranormal romance and fantasy, and I don't like it any better there. I think it tends to lead to lazy writing. You don't have to bother actually developing the relationship, because fate! Or prophecy! Or destiny! Who cares whether they actually like each other, have anything at all in common, share any values, or any of the other stuff you expect in a relationship. They don't even have to care. They just have to be together.

 

Though I'd think that if you were fated to be together, you would have that "click." You'd recognize that there was something in that person's soul that called to your soul. The fate/prophecy/destiny/pixie dust would be almost superfluous. (Though I am reading a fantasy novel now that does that -- the prophesied couple were in love anyway, without even knowing there was destiny involved, and they know why they love each other.) With Robin and Regina, she had just about zero interest in him until she saw the tattoo. Otherwise, I don't see what he sees in her or she sees in him.

 

I can see falling in love with someone else after your spouse is believed dead, and I can see there being some complications when your spouse turns out to be alive (for a much, much better take on that story, see the movie My Favorite Wife with Cary Grant and Irene Dunne -- she's been lost at sea in a shipwreck and gets rescued from the deserted island where she was stranded just as he's finally declared her dead so he can remarry). But I can't see being that torn when the new relationship is only days old, not a years-long, established relationship. And it gets gross when it turns out that the new woman is the reason the wife was lost in the first place, and he's still siding with the new woman in his heart, has no problems with this, and feels like her current behavior absolves her of all blame for what she did to his wife in the first place. I just can't deal with a man who could still be in love with the woman who threw his wife into a dungeon and was planning to execute her. That doesn't even seem to have given him the slightest qualm. He talked about the pain he went through when he lost Marian -- but now he claims to be in love with the person who caused that pain?

 

Do they even think about what they're writing here?

[YaddaYadda]

I thought Snow Queen had the best reaction to seeing Emma.  It was like someone had punched her in the gut or something.  That also means whatever she was to Emma, this is the very first time she probably runs into her, which means she really hasn't been in Storybrooke all that long.  They could just say she came along with the second curse which might've ripped those who were in Coradome out of the Enchanted Forest.

 

I was pretty impressed with EM last night though.  Even with Elsa, she seemed motherly when she called her my sweet Elsa and then maybe she really wanted to protect her but she's also slightly insane...this arc isn't at all like I had expected it to be.  I was ready for a major letdown.

 

Look at you show impressing me!

[Guest]

I thought Snow Queen had the best reaction to seeing Emma.  It was like someone had punched her in the gut or something.  That also means whatever she was to Emma, this is the very first time she probably runs into her, which means she really hasn't been in Storybrooke all that long.  They could just say she came along with the second curse which might've ripped those who were in Coradome out of the Enchanted Forest.

 

The fact that they intentionally put the events of Frozen before the timeline where Snow/Charming met (an unknown period) and that Snow Queen seems to have a preexisting relationship with Emma and Rumpel screams to me that Snow Queen was part of Rumpel's plan to find Neal.

[KingOfHearts]

 

The fact that they intentionally put the events of Frozen before the timeline where Snow/Charming met (an unknown period) and that Snow Queen seems to have a preexisting relationship with Emma and Rumpel screams to me that Snow Queen was part of Rumpel's plan to find Neal.

This. I bet she was the go-ahead to either cradle Emma or find Neal.  I can't tell you how thrilled I am about her connection with Emma. Finally Emma's past becomes relevant enough for the writers to possibly explore it!

 

I'm actually kind of wondering what Emma's relationship with Rumple is. Does he still like her because she's confident? Does he care she was Neal's former lover and his grandson's mom? Rumple seems to only "like" certain people beyond his deal business.

Edited October 13, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Guest]

I've come around to the idea that Outlaw Queen can't work.  Marain could have stayed dead and Outlaw Queen wouldn't work.

 

The problem is that they are trying to write a CaptainSwan relationship dynamic and Robin doesn't fit in with that.  There is this nice dynamic with Emma and Hook where Emma is a savior with a dash of thief and Hook is a pirate with a dash of naval hero.  Captain Hook is enough of a mystery in Peter Pan that they were able to give him a somewhat sympathetic backstory to counterbalance his dastardly deeds.

 

They are trying to sell that Robin's history as a thief gives him the insight to Regina's former Evil Queen ways because he's just like her.  And that's just insane, so I reject it.  Robin is the steal from the rich and give to the poor guy.  In that story Nottingham was the better example of Regina behavior and Robin never forgave him. 

 

To make Regina's relationship work, they need to get someone who had some bad in them or is at most a supporting character in a fairy tale to be able to take some liberties with the character which is why I think Richard the Lion Hearted would have been a better idea.

[Mari]

I've come around to the idea that Outlaw Queen can't work.  Marain could have stayed dead and Outlaw Queen wouldn't work.

. . .

They are trying to sell that Robin's history as a thief gives him the insight to Regina's former Evil Queen ways because he's just like her.  And that's just insane, so I reject it.  Robin is the steal from the rich and give to the poor guy.  In that story Nottingham was the better example of Regina behavior and Robin never forgave him. 

Yes.  Traditional Robin Hood (and so far, they've not given him enough of a story to make him not-traditional Robin Hood) would never have dated Regina.  Giving Prince John or the Sheriff of Nottingham stilettos and breasts would not have been enough of a motive for him to completely ignore everything they'd done..

 

I could have bought a slow-build romance over the missing year--one where he mistrusts her, and gradually came to realize she'd changed.  But to take someone who's the Enchanted Forest version of the people he fought against, give them two dates and apparently some sex, and it's love and trust?  While he's still married to someone Regina tormented and then sent to her death?

 

I do not see why A&E think that's a compelling, romantic story.  What's romantic about it?