Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[Rumsy4]

Well the plot called for Rumple to not do anything to save Emma. That's why Belle said nothing. It's hard to blame the character, when the writing is so lacking.

[scenicbyway]

Well the plot called for Rumple to not do anything to save Emma. That's why Belle said nothing. It's hard to blame the character, when the writing is so lacking.

For all of their non help, the scene could've just been Hook and Charming breaking into the shop and finding the card to the necklace as easily as Belle did. They could've shown a brief scene of Rumple and Belle still back at their honeymoon house.

Belle has less and less to do. Not that she ever did much in the first place. I get that the writers are in a pickle with her. You can't write out "Belle" because she's a beloved Disney character. }Since she's Rumple's wife, she has to be a regular, otherwise we'd always be wondering where she is. I think they tried to minimize her with the Neverland plot and even Zelena. But now that she and Rumple are back in the same town she has to be included at least in his drama.

Edited October 9, 2014 by scenicbyway

[Camera One]

Well the plot called for Rumple to not do anything to save Emma. That's why Belle said nothing. It's hard to blame the character, when the writing is so lacking.

 

It is, so they shouldn't have had Belle in the scene, since by saying nothing, it does a disservice to her character.  As scenicbyway said, Belle didn't need to be at the shop.  Nor Rumple even, but they wanted to throw in a few funny one-liners.  I suppose they might have needed him to say that if he melted the ice wall, Emma would die too.  Which is doubtful considering the power of his magic, but magic does whatever the plot requires.  

[stealinghome]

Yeah, at the end of the day, I wish they had just not had Belle in the scene. It would have done less of a disservice to her character.

 

The writers really need to sit down and take half a day and just figure out what the hell to do with the character that doesn't totally character assassinate her. Like, I know you guys don't know what to do with her--but you were the ones that made Emilie de Ravin a regular in the first place, so that's no excuse!!!

Edited October 9, 2014 by stealinghome

[patchwork]

Assistant Mayor might be a good fit for the person the show wants me to believe Belle is and it's an easy way for her to interact with other characters.

 

I can be okay with that scene in the shop if it's followed up at some point with Belle saying she's being really careful about what she says to Rumple because of the power the dagger gives her. But it wont, after 3 years I've accepted that some characters are simply props to another character's storyline, although I still rage about it occasionally because it's such a waste and terrible writing, Belle to Gold, Robin to Regina, Snow and Charming have traded but that's mostly because of the RL pregnancy. 

Edited October 9, 2014 by patchwork

[Dani-Ellie]

I willing to give Snow a little slack in the closing scene.  She's been holding her baby for hours (where was the stroller?), dealing with crazy towns people and apparently Regina too, she figures out a way to get the power back on (even though that line is still down) she barely makes it into the room to find a woman in a sparkly dress being comforted by her husband.  Emma was facing away from the door so how could sleep deprived Snow even realize what was happening with Emma in the length of the scene?

 

 

Here's my thing, though. I can pretend all I want that as soon as the cameras stopped rolling, Snow turned, saw Emma, and promptly smothered her with overprotective-mom fluttering, but that'd be headcanon. We didn't see it, so we have no idea what happened. I could just as easily say that after the cameras stopped rolling, Snow promptly took Snowflake to bed and never looked in Emma's direction at all. I think something as important as Emma's almost-death should have registered onscreen with her mother. And maybe we'll get some mention of it from Snow in 4x03, even if it's just an, "Emma, you almost died yesterday!" or whatever, but I highly doubt it.

 

Basically, I'm so very tired of having to imagine all this stuff. It goes back to the same complaint I had during the Neverland conversation and all the Snowing stuff in 3B. By leaving Emma out of her parents' equation, I think they're creating a wedge in the family. It may or may not be intentional, but I think it's there and each inattention to the writing just compounds it. A television show's job is to show, not leave it up to the audience to imagine. And I think what they've shown since the Echo Cave, whether they meant to or not, is a Snow White who's written off trying to have a relationship with her adult daughter because that's not the kind of relationship she wanted to have with her, and I'm sorry, but that sucks. If Emma was important to Snow (or, I suppose, if the Snow/Emma relationship was important to the writers), I would think there would have been some kind of onscreen reaction from Snow regarding Emma.

 

The staging of the whole thing still sucks, but the writer could mount a defence for why they didn't have Snow mention Emma.

 

Even if the writer did use the defense that she just never saw her, that would still be missing the point for me because my next question would be, "Why wasn't she involved in the story in the first place?"

Edited October 9, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[Mari]

Because the rate the show is going to show dysfunctional mother/child relationships, Emma is likely to turn into a serial killer.

Well, considering how Snow behaves around Regina?  That might actually improve their relationship, because Snow will think Emma's worth the attention and affection.

[Shanna Marie]

I'm also of the opinion that they aren't creating a rift between Snow and Emma on purpose, they just aren't that interested.

Yeah, I think it's a combination of lack of interest and ineptitude. They assume we know that Snow loves her daughter, so there's no point in writing it, and they aren't interested enough in it to make much effort in writing something that might take some subtlety and effort. Meanwhile, Emma has a lot of other relationships going on that are more key to the plot, and I guess they can't keep too many balls in the air. There's the romance with Hook, the sheriff stuff with David, they can't forget about Henry (since Regina apparently can't be bothered, so he needs a mother), and now there's the new friendship with Elsa and then there's Emma's guilt and determination to give Regina a happy ending. If they had to deal with Emma's relationship with Snow on top of all that, Emma might start to look like the main character who's central to all the relationships in the show. Horrors! (This is when I need the sarcasm font.)

 

I've been thinking about that scene at the loft when Mary Margaret comes home, and I suspect that her reaction to Emma's plight was sacrificed to the needs of Plot!Plot!Plot! since if she asked what happened to Emma, then they'd have to at least briefly recap the things the audience just saw. Even though we'd like to see Mary Margaret's reaction to what happened to her daughter, they might see that kind of recap as boring in terms of plot. So instead, they jump straight to the plot element to get to David's declaration that they're going to help Elsa. However, the easy rewrite is for Mary Margaret to enter, see Emma wrapped up in blankets and with everyone hovering around her, have Mary Margaret say, "Emma, what's wrong?" and Emma say, "I'm okay, Mom. This is Elsa, we need to help her find her sister." And then David can make his "this family is good at finding people" statement.

 

On an entirely different relationship note, aside from the conversation about dating, I did like the way the stuff with Emma and Hook was handled. The dating stuff seemed badly like authorial intrusion, like it was Jane talking, not Hook. I could see him having figured out in his time in Storybrooke (both in his first time and in the return) that devices were plugged with wires into the wall, and that might have something to do with the wires around town that entered buildings. He might even have figured out champagne buckets from lurking in the restaurant during Emma and Walsh's date. But even if he's been doing research, he and Emma only got romantic a day ago, and it's not like he'd have had time to read back issues of Cosmo in the library to figure out courtship practices in our world, and even if he did, I can't see him wanting that sort of thing enough to get pissy about not getting to do those things already. It makes sense for him to be annoyed that Emma is barely even looking at him or talking to him after kissing him the way she did, especially since she was using Regina as an excuse, but I can't see him being annoyed that they haven't had the chance to go out for a fancy dinner. He's an action guy. You'd think that fighting side-by-side with the woman he loves (possibly with some celebrating the victory afterward) would be exactly his idea of courtship. After all, his last serious relationship was essentially couples piracy.

 

But the rest was lovely, starting with him shutting down David's paternalism in a very elegant and mature way, then his sheer terror at the idea of losing her. And then all the hugs, hand-holding, caresses and cuddling after the crisis said far more to me than any True Love's Kiss. I think that all showed a depth of caring that goes beyond mere lust. I like seeing a couple clearly drawing comfort from each other, and a hug can be far more emotionally intimate than a kiss.

 

Like, I know you guys don't know what to do with her--but you were the ones that made Emilie de Ravin a regular in the first place, so that's no excuse!!!

Wasn't Belle supposed to be the town librarian? The library should be Research Central, so she'd have to interact with all the characters. Like, she could help Marian research what she needs to know to adapt to our world, she could help them research people with ice powers (assuming there's a mix of Enchanted Forest and Storybrooke books in the library), she could work with Regina (or maybe Henry as Regina's proxy) to research the author of the book. That would give her things to do that have nothing to do with Rumple and her relationship with him.

[KingOfHearts]

 

They assume we know that Snow loves her daughter, so there's no point in writing it, and they aren't interested enough in it to make much effort in writing something that might take some subtlety and effort.

 

Hate to bring her into this, but the writers do the same thing with Regina. They assume we know she's done all this redemption work, when she hasn't. Their intentions are so painfully obvious when Henry says lines like, "She's come so far!" or Regina says, "I worked hard to get here!" We as the audience are expected to just believe what they want us to. With Snow and Emma, the characters act like the relationship is uber close with no issues. There's no real foundation going on here. The writers assume without confirming.

Edited October 9, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Mari]

We as the audience are expected to just believe what they want us to. With Snow and Emma, the characters act like the relationship is uber close with no issues. There's no real foundation going on here. The writers assume without confirming.

And what's really annoying about it is that it's not usually even a time issue--it's an attention to details issue.  Like Shanna Marie pointed out--the end of White Out needed only two sentences, and one of them would have made more emotional sense than the jealousy tinged question that was asked.

 

In the season 3 fairybacks, it could easily have been done in 1-2 seconds per fairyback.  Add in a hand-drawn picture of Emma to the Charmings' quarters that gets focused on briefly during the new baby discussion.  Have a blonde someone walk nearby in a red leather jacket/doublet/whatever, and have Snow look briefly sad before going back to her explanation.  Have some swans walking around during a conversation outside, have the characters pause, and then go back to their conversation without discussing why swans would be touchy.   Maybe have one of the new baby talks by the unicorn mobile.

 

But the complete lack of anything is characterization and storytelling--it's just not the story they think they're telling. There seems to be a basic lack of understanding in how to write human emotion and relationships so that they seem authentic and reasonable.

 

And you're right--they've done the same thing with Regina.  The difference there, is that they skipped right from "I want to kill you." to "Let's trade baby and work tips." It makes both Snow and Regina look . . . well, fickle and self-absorbed.  After all, since Regina isn't trying to kill Snow any more, they're best buds.  Who cares about everything else!

[YaddaYadda]

I think they have champagne in the Enchanted Forest.  Wasn't it being served at Midas' ball or did I totally make that up in my head?

 

You'd think that fighting side-by-side with the woman he loves (possibly with some celebrating the victory afterward) would be exactly his idea of courtship. After all, his last serious relationship was essentially couples piracy.

 

Oddly enough, what I got from 4x01 was that Hook seems to be looking for something "normal".  What's more normal than going home and watching Netflix?

 

But the rest was lovely, starting with him shutting down David's paternalism in a very elegant and mature way, then his sheer terror at the idea of losing her.

 

I was very impressed that David didn't even argue anything with Hook when he basically told him to butt out.  David actually nodded his head and accepted it.  I thought he would put up more of a fight or something.  But honestly, David talking about Hook's reputation, everyone knows about that including Emma.  While I actually really like David because I think he's full of awesomeness, I'm sort of tired of the lack of self-awareness he and Snow have when it comes to Hook. 

 

We're all okay that Do-Over was named after the man who helped erect those walls Emma enjoys hiding behind because somehow he is some sort of "hero" and this is a tribute to whatever fucked up thing they had in the past.  I can understand the wariness they might feel towards Hook because he's a pirate and all even though he has gone above and beyond for their daughter because he cares about her that much, so let's not be a bunch of hypocrites, Snowing, shall we?

 

And then all the hugs, hand-holding, caresses and cuddling after the crisis said far more to me than any True Love's Kiss. I think that all showed a depth of caring that goes beyond mere lust. I like seeing a couple clearly drawing comfort from each other, and a hug can be far more emotionally intimate than a kiss.

 

As someone who is over the whole TLK which I'm pretty sure we'll still be subjected to anyway and I know a lot of CSers are just waiting for that, I'd take the way Emma and Hook were with each other during 4x02 over a kiss anytime, any day.  That spoke louder than the kiss during 4x01.  And I think that's what he has been waiting for. 

[Shanna Marie]

And what's really annoying about it is that it's not usually even a time issue--it's an attention to details issue.  Like Shanna Marie pointed out--the end of White Out needed only two sentences, and one of them would have made more emotional sense than the jealousy tinged question that was asked.

And that mostly involves really thinking about the characters and how they'd actually react. As I said, my first instinct was to think that asking about Emma would then require a recap of what we'd just seen. Then I remembered that we're dealing with Emma. She's not going to give a recap of what happened to her. She'd say she's okay and then move on to what she thinks is the important part. So then all you need is for Mary Margaret to ask what's going on with Emma and act like a concerned mother, and Emma can deflect it and move on to the plot. Boom, we have our relationship moment for Mary Margaret and Emma, we have Emma responding in-character, and we get our plot taken care of.

 

It's even out of character for Snow to show that kind of jealousy where David's concerned. Remember when last season he was out all night and came home with Rapunzel and she had no problem with it, just assuming he'd been out rescuing a princess, since that's what he does? Wouldn't she assume that here? Especially since her daughter, grandson and the friendly neighborhood pirate were all there in the room. You'd think that would make it difficult for David to be carrying out a clandestine affair with the sparkly blonde. If that bit was meant to show that she'd learned her lesson with Zelena and had learned to be suspicious of trusting the new person in town when something strange is going on, it needed to be framed a different way.

 

While the Snow problem is ongoing, I think a lot of the problems with relationships in this episode were Espenson issues. One of her bad habits is writing lines that she would probably say and putting them in characters' mouths, regardless of whether those characters would actually say them. Like Hook's comments about dating or thinking of the absurdity of Elsa from Frozen showing up in Mary Margaret's apartment. Someone from our world would be "what the hell?" but Snow would be more likely to assume that David's been off rescuing princesses again and ask what help she needs. If we're going to be in-character there and they didn't want to do a maternal moment, she should have said something more like, "Oh, you've rescued a princess. How can we help?" To which Elsa could have replied, "A queen, actually," and then the others could have filled in on looking for her sister, who was a friend of David's.

[Mari]

Oddly enough, what I got from 4x01 was that Hook seems to be looking for something "normal".  What's more normal than going home and watching Netflix?

That was an interesting moment, and did imply that Hook was looking for normal.  However, I'm not sure it's because that's what he wants, or because it's what he assumes Emma would want.  After all, they spent a good chunk of 3B with Emma chanting her desire for normal, and Hook's demonstrated before he doesn't have to be in charge.

 

He may not know what Netflix is, but the way Emma said it implies that it's something normal, and casual, and coupley.  

 

It's even out of character for Snow to show that kind of jealousy where David's concerned. Remember when last season he was out all night and came home with Rapunzel and she had no problem with it, just assuming he'd been out rescuing a princess, since that's what he does?

Yeah.  That didn't make sense to me, either.  If Snow were going to be jealous, it would have made more sense for her to be jealous in season 2, when they were separated for a longer period of time after just getting past a curse during which they both had other partners. (Katherine and Whale). 

 

For her to be jealous now was just weird.

[Rumsy4]

 

For her to be jealous now was just weird.

 

But did they mean for Snow to sound jealous, though? It seems really OOC for Mary Margaret to be jealous of David talking to a woman. What did she think? David was flirting with a strange woman in front of his daughter, her not!boyfriend, and grandson? Maybe it was just Ginny's line delivery that gave the impression. She could said the same sentence in a different tone--more curious, and less abrupt. And who knows who the director was? It could be someone who had no idea of the dynamics, and just went with it. It's up to the actors to a large degree to keep track of their characters when the directors can keep changing. That line was a craptastic one too. It could have been a whispered, "Who is that?" to David, or a simple, "Hello?!" to Elsa.

[KingOfHearts]

Just rewatched the scene. It wasn't so much Snow's tone as her eyes that seemed unkind to me. She kept giving people glares like she just wanted to be alone already. It looked like, "Oh great. More people." I still didn't see why she didn't ask about Emma, though.

Edited October 9, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Leia1979]

I absolutely agree Snow's reactions made no sense, both her reaction to Elsa and non-reaction to Emma. The way she's acted towards Emma for the past season or so has made me dislike the character more and more.

 

A simple fix to that scene could have gone:

SNOW: Emma, are you okay? (Because we could totally imagine someone already told her what happened before she made it home. Also, some reaction to seeing Emma snuggling with Hook would have been interesting, too.)

EMMA: I'm fine. (waving her away)

SNOW: (notices ELSA in the apartment) Oh, hello. Who are you?

[Shanna Marie]

Oddly enough, what I got from 4x01 was that Hook seems to be looking for something "normal".

I didn't get so much that he was looking for "normal" as wanting any time he could spend with Emma. She was the one saying they didn't have time to get together because there was a crisis, and the Netflix thing came up when the crisis was momentarily averted and she still was making excuses to avoid him. His point has been that "normal" doesn't really exist, so you make time to be with the people you love, whether you're facing a crisis together or spending quiet time together. You make the most of whatever time you have. If you're waiting for the perfect time to pursue a relationship, it will never happen and you'll only end up with regrets.

 

So the spirit of his remarks calling the snowman crisis or hanging out at the ice wall "dates" fit with what he's been saying, that any time they get to spend together is a treasure to be cherished and enjoyed, even if it is battling a snow monster or puzzling out a mysterious ice wall. It was just written in a way that didn't work for him. For one thing, the kind of pissy and snarky tone about calling it a date seemed off. For another, calling it a "date" and acting like it was something he wanted seemed out of character. It would have been more Hook-like for him to have said something like, "Ah, we're together again. It's a starry night beside a glistening wall of ice -- the perfect romantic evening. Well, if your father weren't here." They could even have played with foreshadowing and added a suggestive eyebrow waggle and "We may even have to huddle together for warmth, if we're lucky." That would have been consistent with what he said in the previous episode about how there's always a crisis, so that's no excuse for avoiding him and no reason not to have a romance.

 

And it was weird for the guy who still pays with doubloons to talk about "dating." He might talk about courting or romancing, even wooing. But "dating" is a pretty modern concept, so it was jarring. I know Jane is a big Jane Austen fan, so she needs to keep "What would Mr. Darcy say?" in mind as her guideline for writing Hook's dialogue.

[stealinghome]

Just rewatched the scene. It wasn't so much Snow's tone as her eyes that seemed unkind to me. She kept giving people glares like she just wanted to be alone already. It looked like, "Oh great. More people."

To be fair to Snow, after the day she'd had, if I were in her shoes? The absolute and utter last thing I would want is a bunch of non-family people in my apartment, too.

[KingOfHearts]

To be fair to Snow, after the day she'd had, if I were in her shoes? The absolute and utter last thing I would want is a bunch of non-family people in my apartment, too.

I agree... To be honest, I really didn't find the scene to be anti-Snow/Emma. It felt strange, yes, but this was coming off the day that had "Buy a flashlight!"

[Camera One]

Just rewatched the scene. It wasn't so much Snow's tone as her eyes that seemed unkind to me. She kept giving people glares like she just wanted to be alone already. It looked like, "Oh great. More people." I still didn't see why she didn't ask about Emma, though.

 

I guess we can chalk it up to Snow not having slept the night before, and she had just spent an hour at the electrical plant trying to get the power back on, and she wanted to come home and have a bath and sleep, but sorry, it's Inspirational Speech time with Random Stranger.  I don't think she was jealous either, but not her usual friendly self.

 

Rewatching the scene and imagining to be Snow, the whole situation upon her entering the loft would actually make no sense at all.  In her mind, she would be asking questions like, where did this person come from, why is she wearing that, am I supposed to know who her sister is, and why are we trying to convince her our family never gives up?   If Goodwin was approaching the scene from that angle, her expression and tone might make sense.

 

In all the interviews, at all those convention events this summer, did no one ask Adam and Eddy about why they are neglecting Snow and Emma's relationship?  If they did know, they might throw the pair a bone.  But if they don't, we're going to get nothing.  I guess the other alternative is they know and they don't care but I hope not.  I'm guessing most of the questions were about "Frozen" or all the ships.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Camera One

[scenicbyway]

In all the interviews, at all those convention events this summer, did no one ask Adam and Eddy about why they are neglecting Snow and Emma's relationship?  If they did know, they might throw the pair a bone.  But if they don't, we're going to get nothing.  I guess the other alternative is they know and they don't care but I hope not.  I'm guessing most of the questions were about "Frozen" or all the ships.

 

Did anyone ask about Henry and Emma's relationship either?  I think that the writers aren't talking about Snow and Emma and Emma and Henry because those relationships have been fleshed out on the show.  Yes, it's been a while, Snow and Emma's was Seasons 1 and 2 and Emma and Henry's in 1 and 3.  Now the focus seems to be on working with her dad (which we were clamoring for last season) and her boyfriend.  There's no drama between Snow and Emma because they are comfortable in their relationship at the moment.  I chalk it up to it being like  there not being any drama between Snow and Charming at the moment, they are comfortable in their relationship, so it's not a big deal. 

[Shanna Marie]

While I actually really like David because I think he's full of awesomeness, I'm sort of tired of the lack of self-awareness he and Snow have when it comes to Hook.

I don't entirely mind the idea of David having the "what are your intentions toward my daughter" conversation because he is a dad, and he missed all the parenting so I could see him being extra enthusiastic about it now, and there is the fact of Hook's reputation. The problem is the context.

 

He's grilling Hook, the guy who's traveled across realms and across time for his daughter's sake, the guy who saved David's life, the guy who is the reason Emma is in David's life right now rather than still in New York with no memories of her family (and who gave up everything he owns to make that happen, though I don't think David knows that right now). And yet he didn't so much as give the guy who knocked up his daughter as a teenager and then wasn't a part of her life in the aftermath so much as a scary dad look, didn't say anything to him about not abandoning her again, even encouraged her to give him another chance. Hook gave Neal more of a "don't fail her again" warning than David did. Then there's the fact that David and Hook have already had this conversation, multiple times. There was the "stay away" warning before Hook saved his life, after which David was seemingly okay with Hook. There was the chat with "Prince Charles" in which Hook admitted that her parents had problems with him and David assured him that they wouldn't if they knew what he'd done for her, and David just learned who Charles was. It doesn't even fit with David only a few days ago encouraging Emma to take Hook with her to face Zelena or being okay with Hook going after her to talk her into not fleeing Storybrooke.

 

I'd kind of like to see what Emma would say if David tried to talk to her about this relationship. Except right now he seems to be back to being okay with Hook. For now. The pendulum will swing again, I'm sure, the next time they need conflict before they have to get all bromantic to save the day again.

[stealinghome]

There was the chat with "Prince Charles" in which Hook admitted that her parents had problems with him and David assured him that they wouldn't if they knew what he'd done for her, and David just learned who Charles was.

Does David even remember that chat, though? From his perspective, it was one chat like 5-6 years ago, with some random guy he probably hasn't thought about since, at a very stressful/important time in his life. I wouldn't be surprised if he barely remembers that he chatted with "Prince Charles," let alone the content of the chat.

 

I didn't mind David giving Hook the shovel talk; someone in Emma's life ought to. If he hadn't, we'd all be on here bitching about how David and Snow obviously must not care about Emma because no one bothered to verify that Hook's intentions are relatively noble.

[YaddaYadda]

Just so my post isn't misinterpreted, I actually didn't mind that scene between David and Hook.  Sometimes, I just feel like they're overcompensating with Hook.  It almost seems like David and Snow put what happened with Emma and Neal in the past.  The past is the past, and now we have the present and the future and Hook is here and he has a thing for Emma, so let's make sure he doesn't screw her over.

 

I don't know if that makes any sense (it does in my mind).

[regularlyleaded]

Sincere question: What is "the shovel talk"?

From the context I'm assuming it has something to do with someone giving a boyfriend a talk, yes? Why shovel? Is it like the Mafia talking about breaking someone's legs if they don't pay up?

 

Edit: Nevermind. Google answered my question, mostly. Still curious on the origin of the phrase but that is neither here nor there.

Edited October 10, 2014 by regularlyleaded

[Camera One]

I don't know if that makes any sense (it does in my mind).  Sometimes, I just feel like they're overcompensating with Hook.  It almost seems like David and Snow put what happened with Emma and Neal in the past.  The past is the past, and now we have the present and the future and Hook is here and he has a thing for Emma, so let's make sure he doesn't screw her over.

 

That does make sense.  I don't really see it as overcompensating.  Hook stayed good and did heroic deeds in 3A/3B, but Charming also personally experienced Hook's betrayals in the not-so-distant past.  It is not that easy to regain someone's trust after it has been lost, and there might be nagging doubts in Charming's mind that maybe he will revert.  He did turn back to piracy in the missing year.  I don't think Charming feels he knows what direction Hook might go if he and Emma do not work out.  

[Dani-Ellie]

Did anyone ask about Henry and Emma's relationship either?  I think that the writers aren't talking about Snow and Emma and Emma and Henry because those relationships have been fleshed out on the show.

 

But Henry didn't admit in front of Emma that, basically, his relationship with her wasn't fulfilling his desire to be a son while the camera lingered on her heartbroken face, either. If we hadn't had all the Echo Cave/Neverland stuff thrown at Snow/Emma for the sake of Baby!Plot, I wouldn't be as angry. But when they throw that out there and then never show the characters dealing with it, I don't know where the characters' heads are at. Like, is Emma really okay with what Snow said? Or is she just internalizing it and not making waves about it?

 

I didn't mind David giving Hook the shovel talk; someone in Emma's life ought to.

 

I liked the David/Hook stuff, too. At the heart of it, I think there was a very basic plea: "just don't break her heart." Because his baby girl's been hurt enough.

[stealinghome]

Sincere question: What is "the shovel talk"?

Oh, sorry! It's essentially the "hurt him/her and I will break you" talk. I'm pretty sure the "shovel" part refers to the idea that's like "I have a sword and shovel," ie I can bury your body once I kill you!

[Mari]

Edit: Nevermind. Google answered my question, mostly. Still curious on the origin of the phrase but that is neither here nor there.

I don't know for sure if it's the earliest usage, but remember it from Buffy the Vampire Slayer.  One of the characters tells someone interested in her friend that if he hurts the friend, she will beat him to death with a shovel, because a vague disclaimer is no one's friend. 

Edited October 10, 2014 by Mari

[regularlyleaded]

Thanks, guys! :D 

[KAOS Agent]

 

I wouldn't be surprised if he barely remembers that he chatted with "Prince Charles," let alone the content of the chat.

 

I don't think he needs to remember having the chat. However, David expressly said that in his opinion any parent would be crazy not to approve after seeing what "Charles" was willing to do for "Leia". Both Snow & David remembered those two, so he does know exactly what Hook was willing to do for Emma and thought it was approval worthy. Now, I understand that there's all of Hook's prior actions to be taken into account, but he seemed fine with pushing Emma towards Neal. Clearly prior actions like knocking up and abandoning his underage daughter were overlook-able and that was so incredibly emotionally devastating to Emma that him side-eyeing Hook and not Neal drives me crazy. I wish David had decked Neal like JMo thought he should have done.

 

I don't mind David expressing concern, he's trying to be a good father, but I liked Hook firmly, but politely shutting David down in terms of involving himself in a relationship that is not anyone's business but Hook & Emma's.  

Edited October 10, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[YaddaYadda]

I wonder if David will speak to Emma about this or if it's done.  I guess he got to see first hand that this thing isn't one-sided so he might let go the whole thing altogether.  In his case, I think he's seen the writing on the wall a long time ago.  That whole talk with Emma about moments when she asked him if they weren't pushing her towards Neal to keep her away from Hook was pretty telling (at least to me) where she would end up regardless of anything that may or may not have happened to Neal and I think David got it.

 

But like KAOS Agent, the whole Neal deal drives me bunkers.  David may not have been an active participant in the whole you really need to be with Neal and he did side-eye him a couple of times but I hate that everyone just embraced the guy and was okay with what went down with him and Emma. 

[Crimson Belle]

 

My father would have kicked his butt and then mine for ever having gotten involved with him.

 

There wouldn't have been anything left after I got through with him if he had done it to me.  In yet another example of how our characters aren't allowed to show realistic human emotion, Emma was way too forgiving.

[Mari]

Forgiveness is one thing, but Emma's parents didn't even acknowledge the crap that Neal put her through when she was younger.

My headcanon for this is that they don't know the whole story--they know Emma was involved with Neal, they know she had Henry, and that she ended up in jail for a while and had to give Henry up, and that she and Neal were separated.  I don't know that Emma would have confided the whole story, simply because it was so very painful and humiliating.

 

Looking at just the first part--involved, Henry, jail, separation--it looks like something Snow and David could have gone through during the bandit Snow days.  Being told Neal didn't have a choice, which is what Neal said and Emma didn't really argue, and then finding out that Rumple is his father?  To people from fairytale land, it looks like the curses and separations they're used to. 

 

To David and Snow, Neal could easily look like Emma's true love that was tragically separated from her.  Knowing Emma is extremely guarded and private, they don't poke at her to find out the details, because they don't want to cause more pain. 

 

By the way, this is the same way I convince myself that naming Nealflake Neal was their clumsy attempt to outreach to Emma.

 

In yet another example of how our characters aren't allowed to show realistic human emotion, Emma was way too forgiving.

I don't like it, not at all--but, with a little squinting, I can see why she might be that way with Neal.  He's Henry's father.  Emma, who grew up desperate for family, and consistently rejected, and feeling rejected by her birth family?  She's going to be doing everything she can to make sure Henry has family, and doesn't have that rejected feeling. 

 

If it were just her, I think Neal would've been slammed to the curb pretty quickly.  But even in the pilot, there were clues that Emma family is a hotspot.  The guy at the restaurant, she tries to send him back to his family, and she did that expecting the family would take him back.  I can see Emma deciding to write off the damage Neal did to her, because it would mean Henry could have a good relationship with him.

[Curio]

My headcanon for this is that they don't know the whole story--they know Emma was involved with Neal, they know she had Henry, and that she ended up in jail for a while and had to give Henry up, and that she and Neal were separated.  I don't know that Emma would have confided the whole story, simply because it was so very painful and humiliating.

This is basically the only logical explanation left for this situation. I mean, I'm on fairly decent terms with some of my past flames - we can have lunch or hang in the same group without it being awkward - but I would flip my shit if my parents decided to name any kid after him. Yes, there used to be love there, but there's a reason it was left in the past. And in Emma's case, there's a really good reason it was left in the past. Just because you happened to have a kid with someone doesn't automatically mean they're given bonus points for being a hero. (And I'm not even trying to Neal bash here, I actually liked his character well enough and would rather see him alive right now instead of Belle.) 

 

Sadly, the only way it'll be brought up on the show is if Henry asks about it. (Or if this show stays on the air 10 more years and Neal 2.0 asks how he got his name. Eventually, someone will have to tell him about Neal 1.0's past, and they can't purposely leave out more than a decade of Neal 1.0's life on Earth just because he did something bad to Emma during that time... right?)

 

Or maybe we're not giving the writers enough credit here. Maybe they're purposely setting up this ironic situation where the Charmings were so excited to see Emma possibly go on a date with Neal that they even sat in the same diner to watch it play out, but are apprehensive when it comes to the guy who probably loves her more than anything in the entire universe and would do absolutely everything for her.

[YaddaYadda]

(Or if this show stays on the air 10 more years and Neal 2.0 asks how he got his name. Eventually, someone will have to tell him about Neal 1.0's past, and they can't purposely leave out more than a decade of Neal 1.0's life on Earth just because he did something bad to Emma during that time... right?

 

 That should be a really awkward conversation.  Never mind that Emma told cursed Snow that Henry's father was a bad guy.  I'm still extremely confused about the hero thing. 

 

The only thing I'll give Neal is that he had no clue Emma was pregnant, I don't think he would have just left his kid just like that no matter how annoying that kid turned out to be. 

[ShadowFacts]

 

The only thing I'll give Neal is that he had no clue Emma was pregnant, I don't think he would have just left his kid just like that no matter how annoying that kid turned out to be.

 

I don't think he would have, either.  And as to Emma's not kicking Neal's ass all over town, not only does she have Henry to think of, she had 10+ years to have some of the raw feelings  blunted.  After all, she's not like Regina who hangs onto little Snow's "ruining" her life. 

[stealinghome]

My headcanon for this is that they don't know the whole story--they know Emma was involved with Neal, they know she had Henry, and that she ended up in jail for a while and had to give Henry up, and that she and Neal were separated.  I don't know that Emma would have confided the whole story, simply because it was so very painful and humiliating.

I don't even really think this is a headcanon, exactly, given that we've never been given any indication in-show that Snow and David know the full story--imo it's as much a headcanon to say with certainty that they do know. Now, the show has never out-and-out stated that Snow and Charming DON'T know the full story, so we can't say with confidence that it's canon they don't know. But until the show gives me some indication that Snowing do, in fact, know, given more signs than not indicate that they don't know, that seems the far likelier possibility. (Which I agree is bs and totally stems from the writers realizing that they can't have Snowing know the full story and still be okay with Nealfire/prop him as a hero. But that's a separate issue.)

 

I also tend to think, because they didn't know the full situation, Snow and Charming were following Emma's lead where Neal was concerned. She seemed cool with Neal, willing to co-parent and be amicable friends (and in fact felt bad that she kept the truth from Neal and Henry). Plus, Neal never did anything like try to kill them (HOOK) or aid and abet in the entire town being murdered (HOOK) or trap them in the Enchanted Forest (HOOK) or shoot Belle in the back (HOOK); in fact, Neal fought with them against Cora and Regina, and while he was a total ass and idiot about Tamara, when he found out the truth he fought her, too, to try to save the town. (Which is not to say that I liked Nealfire as a romantic prospect for Emma, because I hated the idea. But really, given what Snowing did and didn't know, I can absolutely see why they would have liked him more than Hook, and followed Emma's lead in thinking that he was a decent enough guy.)

 

The real problem with that whole situation, imo, is that Emma's reaction to Neal was so off.

[scenicbyway]

 That should be a really awkward conversation.  Never mind that Emma told cursed Snow that Henry's father was a bad guy.  I'm still extremely confused about the hero thing. 

 

The only thing I'll give Neal is that he had no clue Emma was pregnant, I don't think he would have just left his kid just like that no matter how annoying that kid turned out to be. 

It boggles my mind that Adam and Eddy thought it was a good idea to name Snowflake, Neal.  To me, (and I think Emma) he wasn't redeemable, even in his death.  Snow knew that he was a bad guy, I get that he behaved around her and I think he did want to be Henry's dad once he found out about him.  But, more than once with, I think the most important being in "Manhattan" when he said to Emma, if he had known who she was he would've never come near her.  That's not love, he might as well of told her she was nothing to him.  He only wanted Emma back when it meant he wouldn't get to be with Henry all the time.

 

I get that the cast and crew loved working with MRJ, and that's great.  I look at Neal 2.0 as a tribute to MRJ vs. Baelfire.  But now Emma is forever saddled with a brother named "Neal."  A constant reminder beyond Henry, for no apparent reason other than they liked MRJ and hated to lose him as a cast member.  The thing is, they didn't have to lose him.  We could've seen them in relationships with other people while co-parenting Henry together with Regina.  It could've been really interesting.

 

Neal is no hero, he made a dumb, rash decision to bring his dad back at any price only for him to be kidnapped by Zelena.  Sure, he sent the note to Hook but they could've had anyone else do that.  Emma didn't get rid of Zelena anyway, that was Rumple's doing.

[Curio]

Plus, Neal never did anything like try to kill them (HOOK) or aid and abet in the entire town being murdered (HOOK) or trap them in the Enchanted Forest (HOOK) or shoot Belle in the back (HOOK); in fact, Neal fought with them against Cora and Regina, and while he was a total ass and idiot about Tamara, when he found out the truth he fought her, too, to try to save the town. (Which is not to say that I liked Nealfire as a romantic prospect for Emma, because I hated the idea. But really, given what Snowing did and didn't know, I can absolutely see why they would have liked him more than Hook, and followed Emma's lead in thinking that he was a decent enough guy.)

 

I think it's totally normal for Charming and Snow to be wary of Hook because of his villainous past, but the thing that annoys me is that they know all of Hook's dark areas and they call him out on his shit, but we never got that with Neal. Regina and Charming called Hook out on working with the idiots, Snow witnessed his sword fight with Emma and him leaving them in jail, and they all know he took his ship to run away with the magic bean. That's out in the open.

 

So it's strange, even though Hook has probably done way worse things than Neal ever did (although leaving Emma in jail is pretty dang high up on that list), I still feel this weird resentment toward the situation because no one (besides Emma) got to call Neal out about his biggest mistake on-screen. And then he gets called a hero numerous times after his death and gets a kid named after him. Karmic justice has at least knocked Hook down a couple pegs on-screen (he's missing a hand, he gets hit by a car, he's continuously thrown around like a play toy by magical people stronger than him #CaptainFloor, he gets punched in the face by Charming, he gets the "intentions" talk, he gets kneed in the jewels by Emma, he gets thrown in jail and is force fed bologna, everyone assumes he lied about where the Neal message came from, etc.), so I just wanted that one moment where Neal got that same kind of karmic justice. But then he goes and freaking dies and it's like... Hey? Writers? I think you over-compensated there a little bit. I meant I wanted a punch to the face or a stern conversation with the Charmings, not death.

 

We could've seen [Emma and Neal] in relationships with other people while co-parenting Henry together with Regina. It could've been really interesting.

I was actually really looking forward to a plot like that. But alas...

Edited October 10, 2014 by Curio

[Shanna Marie]

So it's strange, even though Hook has probably done way worse things than Neal ever did (although leaving Emma in jail is pretty dang high up on that list), I still feel this weird resentment toward the situation because no one (besides Emma) got to call Neal out about his biggest mistake on-screen. And then he gets called a hero numerous times after his death and gets a kid named after him.

I do think that a parent would have cause to worry about someone like Hook as a potential romantic partner for his daughter and potential stepfather to his grandchild, and it's not unreasonable for him to warn the former bad guy that he's watching. However, the difference to me between Hook's past bad deeds and Neal's past bad deeds is that Hook wasn't in a relationship with Emma when he did those things. He wasn't professing to be in love with her, he hadn't earned her trust, there was no expectation of trust or a certain level of treatment between them. Neal did what he did to someone he supposedly loved, who loved and trusted him. They were in a relationship with each other when he let her go to jail for his crime. When Hook locked Emma up, they were enemies and she had just double-crossed him, so there's an entirely different expectation there.

 

Not to mention, Emma was a teenager and Neal was an adult when those things happened between them. That's where the attitude difference on the part of Emma's parents bugs me. Neal knocked up their teenage daughter when he was an adult, then wasn't a part of her life at all and didn't seem to be looking for her, even though he knew where he was likely to find her. That doesn't even begin to sound like the Charmings' "I will always find you" story where they were constantly being separated. They never gave up, and it was seldom more than a matter of weeks before they found each other again. Neal didn't seem to have even tried for more than 11 years. Emma's an adult who can take care of herself now, but Neal hurt her when she was a much more vulnerable young girl.

 

So, the weird thing is that David's all up in arms about the guy with an admittedly bad past that had very little to do with Emma but who has put himself on the line on her behalf repeatedly, while he didn't seem to have any problem with the guy who betrayed his teenage daughter while they were in a close enough romantic relationship that she got pregnant, leaving her in a position where she felt she had to give up her baby, and then he avoided her for 11 years -- and then he named his son after this guy. I'd be rolling my eyes a lot less if David had ever had any kind of talk with Neal about what happened and warning him not to hurt her again. Instead, David hardly even interacted with Neal (which makes that name thing even weirder).

 

Or maybe David figured out that nothing was actually going to happen between Emma and Neal because Emma was so obviously over him, but the thing with Hook is looking suspiciously serious enough for him to worry about. But even there, there's that baby name.

[scenicbyway]

I do think that Snow and Charming really have no idea of the past that Neal and Emma shared beyond knowing they were no longer together (and hadn't been for a long time) and the fact that Henry is there child but was given up for adoption.  Why is this?  I don't know, it's an interesting story but perhaps too painful for Emma to share or maybe there was never time?

 

As for the "talk" with Hook...Charming can see (heck, the whole town can see) that Hook and Emma are starting something and it could be serious.   I like that Charming is taking it seriously enough to talk with Hook about it.  I thought Hook's response was completely appropriate and also demonstrated to the audience that he is, in fact, still in it for the long haul.

Edited October 10, 2014 by scenicbyway

[stealinghome]

So it's strange, even though Hook has probably done way worse things than Neal ever did (although leaving Emma in jail is pretty dang high up on that list), I still feel this weird resentment toward the situation because no one (besides Emma) got to call Neal out about his biggest mistake on-screen. And then he gets called a hero numerous times after his death and gets a kid named after him.

Oh, ITA with this. I think it's total bull that the show itself has glossed over all the serious crap Neal put through Emma through and tried to handwave/retcon it away as "Well, he had no CHOICE! He's a HERO, really, dammit! We will shove that down your throats until we all die!" I would never ever have wanted Nealfire back with Emma, but I would've liked the Neal character 25% more if he didn't get the Regina Treatment and if Emma (and her loved ones) had truly been allowed to hold him accountable for what he did to her. I'm just saying that it's not a problem with Snowing. It's a problem with the whole show--and actually, imo, for no one more than Emma. Emma was just way, way too mellow and understanding and generous about what he did to her.

 

Also agree that the most interesting things about Neal were his relationship with Rumpel and his relationship with Henry...the things the show explored least with him. The show really did the characters no favors by sticking him with Tamara and then putting him in the stupid "love triangle."

[Rumsy4]

The writers introduce conflict only when they want to create "angst". The main reason Charming never had the shovel talk with Neal was because the writers were never interested in that relationship, nor were they planning to get Neal and Emma back together. In a way I'm glad, because it would only have ended with Charming admitting that Neal had no choice but to have sex with his underage daughter, unknowingly impregnate her, dump her in jail, and never bother to check on her for eleven years, even after realizing that she was in jail, while he himself was scot free for the SAME crime.

[angelwoody]

Wasn't Belle supposed to be the town librarian? The library should be Research Central, so she'd have to interact with all the characters. Like, she could help Marian research what she needs to know to adapt to our world, she could help them research people with ice powers (assuming there's a mix of Enchanted Forest and Storybrooke books in the library), she could work with Regina (or maybe Henry as Regina's proxy) to research the author of the book. That would give her things to do that have nothing to do with Rumple and her relationship with him.

So, essentially, she'd be Giles?  She's no ASH, lol.

[KAOS Agent]

So it's strange, even though Hook has probably done way worse things than Neal ever did (although leaving Emma in jail is pretty dang high up on that list), I still feel this weird resentment toward the situation because no one (besides Emma) got to call Neal out about his biggest mistake on-screen.

 

I find it interesting that no one ever mentions that Neal was well aware that an entire kingdom had been cursed with the loss of their happy endings and were living somewhere in our world. Oh and two of those cursed people were Emma's parents, the people she'd been searching and wishing for her entire life. And he just left them to rot instead of facing up to the idea that he was the reason Emma's life had sucked and stepping up to fix it by sticking with Emma to help her in her job as Saviour. Fuck you, Neal. We blame Hook for a bunch of crap (deservedly so), but Neal is a serious asshole for leaving all of those people to suffer due to his own cowardice. That's an aspect of the relationship Neal had with Emma & her parents that is never mentioned. Neal screwed them all over when he ditched Emma and did it again when August showed up to tell him that Emma was close to breaking the curse. Neal made some selfish and horrible choices that affected a lot more people than just Emma.

Edited October 10, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[Shanna Marie]

I find it interesting that no one ever mentions that Neal was well aware that an entire kingdom had been cursed with the loss of their happy endings and were living somewhere in our world. Oh and two of those cursed people were Emma's parents, the people she'd been searching and wishing for her entire life. And he just left them to rot instead of facing up to the idea that he was the reason Emma's life had sucked and stepping up to fix it by sticking with Emma to help her in her job as Saviour.

Oh, I'd never thought about that, probably because all the "28 years" talk made it seem like she couldn't have broken the curse until it was time. Still, yeah, it doesn't look good for him if he knew at least something about where her parents might be and didn't do anything. How much did he know about the curse, though? It would depend on what August told him, and I'm not even sure how much he would have known, considering he was seven at the time. But he would have known the basics about all the Enchanted Forest people, including Emma's parents, being in this world and that Emma was key to breaking the curse, since that's theoretically why Neal had "no choice" but to dump her so she could be a Savior. I never figured out how/why Emma going to jail was so instrumental for that. If it was about scaring her straight so she'd be able to be the Savior later, then why couldn't they have continued with their plan and hung out in Tallahassee until it was time for her to break the curse, and then they could have taken a vacation to Maine? They were planning to stop the life of crime and settle down anyway. Or was it about him needing to get away from her and make sure she couldn't follow or find him or else he was going to be stuck with facing his father again when she inevitably ended up in Storybrooke to break the curse? If that's the case, then he did have a choice and it wasn't for her sake, and he damn sure wasn't being a hero in doing it. That whole plot has never made any sense to me. It's very handwavy, like they needed to get Emma alone, pregnant and in jail in order for her to give up her baby and set up the whole story, and so they came up with this, and then they realized how much it made Neal suck so they backtracked and came up with the "no choice" stuff so that even Emma wasn't allowed to stay angry at him (I thought her initial response to him was a lot more genuine, and they later softened it way too much).

[Dani-Ellie]

If it was about scaring her straight so she'd be able to be the Savior later, then why couldn't they have continued with their plan and hung out in Tallahassee until it was time for her to break the curse, and then they could have taken a vacation to Maine?

 

This was my whole problem. If it really was all about Emma breaking the curse for Neal and August, wouldn't it make sense for them to, y'know, stay with her and guide her on her path so they make sure she breaks the curse? I have zero idea why Emma needing to break the curse necessitated sending her to jail and leaving her to fend for herself afterward.

 

(And I don't buy that Neal trusted August to take care of it. August had said himself that he was a pretty cruddy guardian angel and had a hard time saying no to temptation, so wouldn't that have raised a red flag for Neal? If he really loved Emma, wouldn't he want to be with her and make sure she's all right, no matter what some dude he just met five minutes ago said?)

[Rumsy4]

He ran away because he didn't want to be there when the Curse broke. He did not want to be found by his father. Otherwise, he would have brought her to Storybrooke and helped her break the Curse, like Henry and Hook did. He didn't even bother checking up on her, to make sure she had made it out of jail okay,  and managing well, which makes him cold blooded, or callous at best.

[stealinghome]

That whole plot has never made any sense to me. It's very handwavy, like they needed to get Emma alone, pregnant and in jail in order for her to give up her baby and set up the whole story, and so they came up with this, and then they realized how much it made Neal suck so they backtracked and came up with the "no choice" stuff so that even Emma wasn't allowed to stay angry at him (I thought her initial response to him was a lot more genuine, and they later softened it way too much).

Honestly, I think that's exactly what happened. I've always read Neal's "I had no choice" as very unintentionally meta, insofar as the writers really mean was "we needed Neal to have no choice." The writers needed Emma to be alone in jail and pregnant, Henry's father to be Bae, and a "reason" for why Emma and Bae hadn't seen each other in forever (yet would still feel somewhat kindly toward each other--I still maintain that when they wrote S2, they planned for Emma/Bae to be endgame, and had to change course when they were not exactly popular).

 

Unfortunately, the writers vastly miscalculated what viewer response to Neal would be, and didn't see coming that the audience wouldn't be content with some bs "you have to be apart from her for...reasons!" lame-ass excuse. And when they realized that that went over like a lead balloon, that's when the handwaving/retconning/whitewashing started. But I really do think it's, they realized that they needed to have Emma in x and y situation, and let storyline necessity dictate in-universe character decision necessity, which is...always a mistake.