Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[Dani-Ellie]

I see Emma and Regina as reluctant co-parents. They're tied together because of this little boy and they will be for the rest of their lives, so I do agree that it makes sense that they be able to be civil with each other. (Being a kid in the middle of two parents who don't talk sucks, and I wouldn't want to see that play out onscreen.) But could I see them meeting for coffee just because or doing something outside of Henry? No, and really, that's perfectly fine with me. I don't need them to be friends.

 

It makes sense that Emma would try to keep Regina at least stable, simply because of Henry.

 

I'm of two minds on this. I agree that Emma would want to keep Henry's other mom from reverting back to Evil Queen mode, to protect both Henry's feelings and her entire family's safety. On the other hand, I feel like Regina's a big enough girl now that she shouldn't need someone holding her hand so she doesn't go all evil again the second something doesn't go her way. At some point, Regina needs to find her own moral compass. She needs to be her own leash. I'm perfectly okay with Emma helping to guide her to that path but at some point, I need to see Regina find the strength of character to walk that path herself.

[Mari]

I'm of two minds on this. I agree that Emma would want to keep Henry's other mom from reverting back to Evil Queen mode, to protect both Henry's feelings and her entire family's safety. On the other hand, I feel like Regina's a big enough girl now that she shouldn't need someone holding her hand so she doesn't go all evil again the second something doesn't go her way. At some point, Regina needs to find her own moral compass. She needs to be her own leash. I'm perfectly okay with Emma helping to guide her to that path but at some point, I need to see Regina find the strength of character to walk that path herself.

Oh, I completely agree that Emma shouldn't have to--Regina's an adult who's been horrible.  They should never, ever be actual friends, and Regina shouldn't need to be coddled every time she gets a hangnail or someone tells her they'd prefer peach to apple pie.

 

But she's crazypants and completely self-absorbed.  She firmly believes that it is her world, and the rest of civilization should do whatever she wants, immediately, and that she's the biggest victim, ever if they don't.  How dare they!

 

Emma shouldn't have to do anything to help her, but I can understand if she feels like she has no other choice.  As long as the show plays it that way, instead of "Emma really wants to help Regina because, well, Regina's so awesome and Emma needs to help her achieve her full awesome because it's Emma's fault Regina's not at optimum awesome.", I can at least tolerate it.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Regina needs to find her own moral compass.

ITA.

 

If Regina was 100% redeemed and rainbows came out of her eyes, riffs would still happen. Even the good guys argue with each other from time to time. So making sure their relationship remains on good terms will always stay relevant, regardless of Regina's redemption. But as it stands, I'm sure it's going through Emma's mind that she needs to keep Regina from going on a rampage. It's twisted to the max, but that's more noble on Emma's part than a guilt complex. For her, it's not really about Regina. It's more about keeping sanity for the good of everyone else.

 

The circumstances are a far cry from normal or ideal, so given that I can see Emma dealing with what she's got.

Edited September 25, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

What I wish is that someone would just flat-out say that on the show--and also that someone would look Henry in the eye and say "Stop whining, because what Regina* truly deserves is execution or a lifelong stay in a maximum-security cell." Like, I would probably be 10% more on-board with how the show treats Regina if they would just admit that it's totally irrational that they let her walk around, instead of acting like they're biggest meanest wedgie-givers on the playground if they don't immediately worship at her feet.

 

*=and for the record, I absolutely think Rumpel deserves the same. It's just that Henry doesn't walk around whinging on about how Rumpel can't be punished.

[Dani-Ellie]

Like, I would probably be 10% more on-board with how the show treats Regina if they would just admit that it's totally irrational that they let her walk around, instead of acting like they're biggest meanest wedgie-givers on the playground if they don't immediately worship at her feet.

 

Oh, fully agree. I would very much like for someone to tell Regina to grow the hell up and when she terrorizes an entire population, she can't then turn around and expect them to accept her with open arms just because she's "trying" to be better. They're protecting themselves and their families by keeping their distance. In my estimation, that's the bed Regina made as the Evil Queen, and I don't care what Regina/the show is selling, I feel zero sympathy for her that people don't want to be close to her now.

[KingOfHearts]

You know, if Regina was as redeemed as the characters say, then they wouldn't need to coddle her. They wouldn't have to worry if she's going to go evil again, because truly good people don't flip flop that fast. The characters contradict themselves. It just flat out doesn't make sense.

 

Where does Henry get the idea that Regina is a hero now? He hadn't seen her in over a year. He didn't see her do anything heroic besides a TLK. In fact, he didn't see any of her redemption in 3A either.

Edited September 25, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

Where does Henry get the idea that Regina is a hero now? He hadn't seen her in over a year. He didn't see her do anything heroic besides a TLK. In fact, he didn't see any of her redemption in 3A either.

 

Well Belle is secretly Henry's real mother. 

[Rumsy4]

He called her a hero when she was trying to stop the Failsafe at the end of S2, and told her in 3.12 that he regretted bringing Emma to Storybrooke because he didn't realize Regina had always loved him.

Edited September 25, 2014 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

But, in-show, Henry has been infected with Snow's Regina's Awesome Syndrome

 

To be fair, Henry was infected with it first.

[Souris]

Rumsy4 said about a podcast:

 

One host is pro-CS, and the other was pro-SF and anti-Emma.

 

OK, I simply do not understand how you can ship a couple and yet hate half of that couple. I know people do it, but I just don't get it. Why would you want a character you like to be with a character you hate? It does not compute with me.

[Mari]

OK, I simply do not understand how you can ship a couple and yet hate half of that couple. I know people do it, but I just don't get it. Why would you want a character you like to be with a character you hate? It does not compute with me.

Yeah, it doesn't fit my emotional make-up, either.  Maybe you want that character to get what he/she wants, and you're convinced the character you don't like is it.  Kind of like putting up with your best friend's partner when you think he/she is really annoying.  (Huh.  I wonder if that explains another Once actor/fan interaction phenomenon . . .)  :)

 

Or, maybe when the character interacts with your preferred character, they're tolerable?

Edited September 26, 2014 by Mari

[MaiLuna]

I actually understand that because I used to ship Alex/Izzie on Grey's Anatomy even though I really disliked Izzie. They just had amazing chemistry and she made Alex so happy that I shipped them. Trust me, I knew I was probably crazy for not liking half of my ship, but the heart wants what the heart wants I guess?

 

 

Or, maybe when the character interacts with your preferred character, they're tolerable?

That happened too. It doesn't really make sense, but oh well.

 

/offtopic

[KingOfHearts]

 

Or, maybe when the character interacts with your preferred character, they're tolerable?

 

This seems to be the case in some places. I don't think Rumpbelle fans are huge Belle fans, but they love seeing her with Rumple. If a couple actually works, then each party tends to bring out the best side of the other. Thus, two is better than one with some fans.

[Serena]

Actually, in my experience, Rumbelle fans looooooove Belle. But, again, Belle is barely a character, so it's quite easy to "insert" the characteristics you like in her. 

[Curio]

From the 4.02 thread:

Snow so desperately wanted to be a mommy to Emma and take care of her and the one time Emma is in need of that care and willing to accept help, her mother is off with Baby Snowflake somehow knowing how to fix a city's power grid. I know it wasn't the commentary the show was meaning to put across, but it's such a symbol of how badly the Snow/Emma relationship has been done that I almost wonder if they aren't doing it deliberately now.

I'd start to think it's deliberate now, too... except I know the writers don't want to admit how badly they screwed up that relationship. The slow drifting apart of Snow/Emma could actually be an interesting look at how mother/daughter relationships can sometimes clash, but there will always be a strong love there no matter what. They could include some small scenes throughout the season leading up to a mother/daughter fight, like Snow realizing she doesn't have any inside jokes with Emma anymore, but Charming and Hook do. Emma could even call Snow out on missing some important moments in her life because of mommy/mayor duties.

Actually owning the strain in the Emma/Snow relationship would be pretty realistic to many mother/daughter relationships in real life, where there might be a distance during those middle/high school or college years, but they slowly learn to come back together in adulthood. But I doubt the show will go ever there.

[Dani-Ellie]

I find that discussing anything about Emma/Snow is like walking around a mine field.  I personally don't understand that relationship anymore.  I'm not even sure what they are too each other.

 

I hear you, and I don't understand it anymore, either. Because let's look at 4x02 for a second. I completely understand that Ginny had had a baby like a month before they filmed this, so they were obviously writing around her and she couldn't be part of the group running around trying to save Emma. But they used the time they had with her to write and film a scene where she goes to Regina for advice rather than using that time to include a scene of her even reacting to the drama going on with Emma. And maybe there was a scene where Snow goes all Overprotective Mom upon returning to the apartment, but if so, why cut it? Do they  understand how it looks to have Snow constantly dismissing Emma? Or do they not recognize that by not making her a part of something like her daughter's almost-death, it's dismissing her?

 

If it were building to something, some big parent/adult-child blowout, I could get behind it, but I really don't think it is. I think we're just supposed to accept that this is how it is. Snow has her baby now and everything's fine. Except everything shouldn't be fine, not for someone with Emma's background and because no matter how many firsts Snowflake has, they will still never fill the hole left by missing Emma's firsts.

 

When the Echo Cave happened, I remember people getting annoyed with the idea that Emma could be jealous of the baby because one child doesn't replace another, but that should go both ways. Snow shouldn't not be a part of Emma's story just because she has Snowflake.

[YaddaYadda]

I guess what nags me the most with Snow/Emma is where Snow's maternal instinct is where Emma is concerned.  It's like it's non existent.  We don't know if Snow was filled in on what happened to Emma and even if she were (and it really didn't seem like she had a clue when she walked in), I don't think she even spared Emma a look, she didn't have a reaction.  They could have written a line asking if she was alright.  She could have passed the baby over to David so that she could go see Emma who looked like death sitting on that chair.  I was expecting more than that.

 

I find that while they have a scene with Snow and Emma where she's basically fishing for information about Emma/Hook, there is an emotional detachment between mother/daughter.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Snow shouldn't not be a part of Emma's story just because she has Snowflake.

 

This is the major roadblock for their relationship. Snow doesn't want Emma. She wants a baby. When babying Emma didn't work, she got her do-over. Once that happened, she never tried to connect with her specifically just for the sake of bonding again. It's irritating because it contrasts with the Emma/MM relationship in S1, which was so freaking good. Now it doesn't seem like Snow even wants to be on friend level with her.

Edited October 8, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[ShadowFacts]

 

They could have written a line asking if she was alright.

 

When Snow came in she said to or about Elsa, "who are you" or "who is this"?  If she had even just said "what's going on, what happened?", that would have been a little evidence that she gave a crap about her own daughter, versus the stranger in her apartment. 

[Mari]

This is the major roadblock for their relationship. Snow doesn't want Emma. She wants a baby. When babying Emma didn't work, she got her do-over. Once that happened, she never tried to connect with her specifically just for the sake of bonding again.

And she's been consistently written that way since the Echo Cave.  Snow seems to like Emma well enough, but isn't particularly invested in her--she's invested in David, Nealflake, and Regina.  Emma is basically a distant relative or acquaintance that Snow's glad to see at the family gathering, but won't be too upset if that doesn't happen.

 

The show has--whether it realizes or not--written a Mary Margaret that realized she'd never be Emma's Mommy, decided that being Emma's Mom/Friend would never be enough, and then wrote the relationship off.  It's been one of the most steady and stable character developments on the show, and based on how season 3 ended, I don't even think they realize it.

 

It's bizarre and creepy, but Snow is more emotionally invested in having a relationship with Regina than she is in having one with Emma.

[Rumsy4]

When Snow came in she said to or about Elsa, "who are you" or "who is this"?  If she had even just said "what's going on, what happened?", that would have been a little evidence that she gave a crap about her own daughter, versus the stranger in her apartment. 

 

Yeah. That was so bizarre. It came across as though Snow was a little jealous of the strange pretty woman David was talking to. Maybe she had a moment of panic that the baby-weight gain might push David away? I know that's not really true (probably), but that line delivery was so off! Instead, they could have had her panic on seeing Emma and walk over as they filled her in.

 

 

It's bizarre and creepy, but Snow is more emotionally invested in having a relationship with Regina than she is in having one with Emma.

 

Agree, And yet apparently, Emma was only one pushing her mom away.

[regularlyleaded]

And she's been consistently written that way since the Echo Cave.  Snow seems to like Emma well enough, but isn't particularly invested in her--she's invested in David, Nealflake, and Regina.  Emma is basically a distant relative or acquaintance that Snow's glad to see at the family gathering, but won't be too upset if that doesn't happen.

The show has--whether it realizes or not--written a Mary Margaret that realized she'd never be Emma's Mommy, decided that being Emma's Mom/Friend would never be enough, and then wrote the relationship off. It's been one of the most steady and stable character developments on the show, and based on how season 3 ended, I don't even think they realize it.

I agree. This is it exactly, Mari.

 

Not that this is what I would like to see from Emma & Snow's relationship (because Emma & MM's relationship in S1 was (and still is) my favorite relationship on the show) but looking at the progression (and eventual collapse) of their relationship over the course of the entire series, I think the trajectory of Snow's attitude towards Emma is very clear. There's almost no deviation (no Regina style flip-flopping) in Snow's attitude as she goes from trying to mother Emma because she still sees her as a baby, then realizing Emma isn't a baby she can mother and then deciding what she needs/wants is not Emma but a baby, and then finally getting that baby. Quest item - Acquired. It was never really about Emma so much as that quest item. Hence, Emma has become a distant relation that is handy in a crisis but not someone that Snow needs to feel complete. (Dude, I just realized that in "Going Home" Henry regretted bringing Emma to Storybrooke because Regina would've been enough for him, and now Emma isn't even ultimately a Quest Item wanted by her mom...cripes. That makes me so damn sad for Emma. Thank goodness for Hook!)

 

I in no way begrudge Snow's desire for a baby and not to say Emma isn't hard to get to know, but they both started off their relationship at opposites ends of the spectrum (Snow wanted to be close to Emma to begin with, and Emma was all "Who are you and why did you condemn me to a life alone in this world?"), so it is kinda tragic now that Emma is in an emotional place where she's open to a closer relationship, Snow has moved on and is happy and wholly focused on the baby that she really wanted. What's also interesting is that while Emma may be open to having a closer relationship with Snow, I don't see Emma as ever pushing for it because Emma is the type of person to be content with what ever attention she's given. So if Snow is happy with Snowflake and, outside of Emma being just around, otherwise uninterested in Emma, then I really don't see their relationship ever changing. I wouldn't be surprised that the gist of the relationship for the rest of the series is what we're seeing now, which is to say little to nothing.

 

It's bizarre and creepy, but Snow is more emotionally invested in having a relationship with Regina than she is in having one with Emma.

After talking about Snowflake being Snow's desired quest item instead of Emma, I'm beginning to think that Snow pursues a relationship with Regina because that's Snow's other quest item -- having a mother-type person in her life. Regina filled that role when Snow was young. Yes, their relationship went waaaaaaay off the rails (which is a total understatement what with Regina's murder spree and all), but despite that, Snow still wants that close familial relationship with Regina. I see that relationship as Snow's secondary quest item and so Snow actively works at developing her relationship with Regina. And, No. Snow's attitude towards Regina makes less than zero sense to me because how many times does Regina have to try and kill Snow and her family before she gets the message that Regina doesn't want to be around her (and Snow really shouldn't want her around), but nevertheless that's what the show is rolling with (because they're demented sadistic bastards).

Edited October 8, 2014 by regularlyleaded

[Dani-Ellie]

It was never really about Emma so much as that quest item. Hence, Emma has become a distant relation that is handy in a crisis but not someone that Snow needs to feel complete.

 

Jesus Christ. This is such a perfect description. Can I adopt Emma? This is bumming me out.

Edited October 8, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[stealinghome]

I know that's not really true (probably), but that line delivery was so off!

Yeah, you know, I have to say that Josh Dallas does a much better job of projecting "father" than Ginnifer Goodwin has done with "mother" for a while now. I'm not sure if it's an acting choice Goodwin (and Morrison, perhaps) have made, if they're confused about the writing and can't make heads or tails of it (because that would add them to the entire fandom), if it's a directing issue, or even a creative-vision-of-the-show issue (ie does it come down to Kitsis and Horowitz mandating that Goodwin play it a certain way?), but the acting has been really off for a while between them, I think.

[regularlyleaded]

Yeah, you know, I have to say that Josh Dallas does a much better job of projecting "father" than Ginnifer Goodwin has done with "mother" for a while now.

I say this with the understanding that it's this show, so it's entirely possible that it's unintentional, but it must be on purpose on the part of the directing and acting (and writing), right?

I remember in S2 that every once in a while the camera would capture these moments where Snow is looking at Emma like, "Wow, this is my kid and she's amazing!" and total maternal love eyeballs. She would look at her with this motherly affection. But ever since S3B, it's not there. At. All. And that completely lines up with the new baby story line.

 

In 3B there were glimpses of Snow being annoyed with Emma, but none of those other moments we would get in S2. And since "Kansas" and now thus far in S4, Snow has eyes only for the baby (quest item achieved!) (though understandably newborns are a handful and babies are damn cute), but even when she's not looking at the baby she's staring at Charming. So not only do Snow and Emma not even really talk, but Snow doesn't even glance Emma's way. I can only think that those are intentional direction and acting choices because it jibes with the progression/deconstruction of their relationship in the story itself. So...it's intentional. Right?  (I know, I know. It's THIS SHOW so who can really say...)

Edited October 8, 2014 by regularlyleaded

[Jean]

I don't believe the writers see anything wrong with the way Snow is towards Emma nor do I think it's on purpose. This all comes down to the fact that they can't or don't want to juggle so many balls for any one character. They can't equally write for Charming and Snow at the same time. That's probably why they originally had him dead. When Snow is front and center, Charming is potted plant material. Charming only gets focus when Snow is supporting. So when they focused on Snow/Emma, Charming got nothing. Now that Charming is the one running around with Emma, Snow gets nothing. That's it. It's the same reason why Rumple can't have both Belle and Neal or Belle and other people in town. He can only have Belle. He's only allowed to interact with others when Belle is not attached to his hip.

 

I also think they've considered Snow and Emma got the "happy ending" at the end of S3 when Emma declared herself a cold bitch and will be better from now on. So for them it's time to move on. Their priority for Snow seems to be the soul sucker, Charming, baby and her individual character.

 

As for the acting stuff maybe the actors are tired of adding in extra material that just isn't there. They don't know what will be kept, or what will be cut and have no say any either way. We know that some of the stuff that the actors have improv'ed or adlibbed in or it was under the director's discretion that it ended up on the cutting floor because A&E doesn't want it there.

[Mari]

So not only do Snow and Emma not even really talk, but Snow doesn't even glance Emma's way. I can only think that those are intentional direction and acting choices because it jibes with the progression/deconstruction of their relationship in the story itself. So...it's intentional. Right?  (I know, I know. It's THIS SHOW so who can really say...)

I would think so, except that the time travel episode pretty much put all the problems in their relationship on Emma's head.  Snow treating Emma like her 3rd cousin twice removed was never even acknowledged, let alone addressed.

[Shanna Marie]

Keep in mind, though, that Snow gave birth something like two days ago. It's pretty normal for a woman who gave birth two days ago to barely notice the existence of anyone but the new baby, mostly because an infant that young is all-consuming. So I'm not going to judge her for anything she does right now. At this point, Snow should be spending most of her time lying down, with the rest of her family surrounding her and giving her all the help they can. Instead, they're having to run off and deal with crises, and then she's having to get up and take her baby with her to deal with a crisis.

 

Not that the writing for all this hasn't been clunky all along, and I think the writers are just assuming that we should know Snow loves her daughter, so they don't have to write it, and why bother writing scenes for Snow and Emma when Regina won't be involved? But I'm not going to criticize a woman who gave birth two days ago for just about anything. She's lucky she remembers her own name(s) and manages to sleep or take a shower. Meals for herself are practically optional.

 

I'll worry more about Snow's relationship with Emma when the baby is more than a month old. So, you know, in season 5 or 6, at the rate this show goes.

[ShadowFacts]

I'll go along with the new baby thing but only up to a point.  In real life you don't get to ignore your other children and put a laser focus on a new baby.  Which they haven't shown Snow doing anyway, she's at Granny's and the power plant and Regina's.    Emma's not a child obviously, but the root of this problem goes back to before Snow was ever pregnant. 

[Dani-Ellie]

Instead, they're having to run off and deal with crises, and then she's having to get up and take her baby with her to deal with a crisis.

 

This is part of the problem, though. It's not like Snow was at home with the baby the whole time. They gave Snow a whole storyline; it just had nothing to do with Emma. My question is why?

 

No, due to real-life circumstances (and even show circumstances because they're not going to leave a days-old baby with like, Henry), Snow couldn't be on the front lines. But that doesn't mean she had to be completely absent from the whole story. Having Snow stuck at home with the baby, worrying because she can't do anything, while Hook and Charming try to free Emma? That's family-feels gold. Put Hook on the walkie with Elsa to check in on them and have Charming call a frantic Snow to update her.

 

Or if you're going to give Snow her own storyline separate from the crisis, at least tie them together at the end. Don't just write around the elephant in the room, because as KAOS Agent, I believe, noted in an earlier post, it's very glaring that Emma's got her entire family around her (and a new friend whom she'd met like a couple hours ago!) and Snow's not there. For cryin' out loud, Elsa did more taking care of Emma than Emma's own mother did. WTF, show?

[regularlyleaded]

I would think so, except that the time travel episode pretty much put all the problems in their relationship on Emma's head. Snow treating Emma like her 3rd cousin twice removed was never even acknowledged, let alone addressed.

Good point. I don't know which option I dislike more. That the writers unfairly laid all the relationship problems at Emma's feet (which I agree seems to be the more likely intention of the writers and I really loathe the writers for it) or that it's purposely written that Snow only sees Emma as a handy crisis management tool (which in this case I really loathe Snow). 

 

I'll worry more about Snow's relationship with Emma when the baby is more than a month old. So, you know, in season 5 or 6, at the rate this show goes.

Heh :) I just don't have that kind of patience. TBH, I've basically given up on that relationship, in spite of how much I used to like it, and have put all my eggs in the Emma x Hook x Charming basket in terms of Emma's relationships with other characters. If the show were to spin-off Emma, Hook, and Charming (with a dash of Rumpy) to their own show I would watch that without ever looking back. The mothership can keep Snow, Snowflake, Woegina, Belle, Henry and everyone else -- or drop them into a deep dark pit for all I care.

[Mari]

Not that the writing for all this hasn't been clunky all along, and I think the writers are just assuming that we should know Snow loves her daughter, so they don't have to write it, and why bother writing scenes for Snow and Emma when Regina won't be involved? But I'm not going to criticize a woman who gave birth two days ago for just about anything. She's lucky she remembers her own name(s) and manages to sleep or take a shower. Meals for herself are practically optional.

 If it were just episodes since the new baby was around, that would obviously be the most likely explanation.  Snow did just have a baby, and Nealflake deserves all that new baby attention.  However, the Snow/Emma issue goes back far enough that new baby syndrome doesn't explain it.

 

Personally, I noticed it was an issue in the infamous Echo Cave episode.  Before that episode, Snow is interested in Emma, and making comments about changing how Emma sees herself as an orphan.  Then, during the Echo Cave episode, Emma and Snow have a conversation--and not just the conversation where Snow reveals that she desperately wants Baby DoOver. 

 

They have a conversation where Emma confides that she and Hook had kissed.  Emma is having a conversation where she is trying to figure out how she feels about Hook.  Snow is having a conversation where she is trying to console her daughter for cheating and assure her that Neal would still love Emma. 

 

Then, Snow has to confess that she really wants a baby.  After that--Snow learns that the heart-to-heart she had with Emma was not the heart-to-heart she thought it was.  Even the little bit she thought she understood about Emma was wrong.  Personally, this comes across like a lightbulb moment for Snow.  She doesn't really want what she has with Emma, and Emma is therefore downgraded from daughter-I'm-connecting with, to person-I-share-genes-with.

 

In almost every following Snow/Emma family scene, Emma is the person reaching out.  In the Enchanted Forest missing year scenes, there is no evidence whatsoever that Snow was missing or worried about Emma.  Emma is only referenced when David is worried about his impending fatherhood, and when they need someone with light magic to save them from Zelena.

 

It was not a time issue.  Adding a reminder of Emma to one of their scenes would have taken seconds. 

 

New baby syndrome doesn't account for Snow being disinterested in Emma for a good chunk of season 3, while at the same time being very interested in Regina's feelings.

 

I know it's a writing issue, but when a writer makes the same choice over and over again, no matter how much I don't like the characterization, it is the characterization. 

Edited October 8, 2014 by Mari

[RadioGirl27]

I think the writer doesn't know how to write the relationship between Emma and Snow, so they have just given up. For me, the scene at the loft at the end of the episode was the last nail in the coffin of that relationship. The fact that Snow didn't even look at Emma it's infuriating. You came back home, and you see your daughter pale like a ghost and cuddling with the same guy she told you that morning that wasn't her boyfriend, and you don't even look at her? That's wrong on so many levels.

I know the writers would not do it, but I hope Emma keeps calling David dad, but calls Snow Mary Margaret.

Edited October 8, 2014 by RadioGirl27

[YaddaYadda]

I personally get the feeling that Emma/Snow as far as relationships go is pretty much done just because they can't have them sitting in the same room ignoring each other.  If Snow is having a hard time being Emma's mother, than she can try being her friend.  I mean they were friends during S1.

 

It almost feels like Snow has given up after Pan's curse and Emma truly became this separate entity.  I'm not really down with anything that happened in 3B during the fairybacks that had to do with taking Emma out of her life for the sake of her unborn sibling and I'm not down with Emma calling Snow mom either because I don't feel she earned it. 

 

I think what could help is if they have Emma moved out of her parents' place. 

[regularlyleaded]

I think what could help is if they have Emma moved out of her parents' place. 

Aaaand, gave Emma, Charming, and Hook a new show that I could watch and enjoy in place of OUAT. We could call it "Once Upon A Time: The Sheriff Chronicles". Let's make this happen, people! ;)

[Curio]

Aaaand, gave Emma, Charming, and Hook a new show that I could watch and enjoy in place of OUAT. We could call it "Once Upon A Time: The Sheriff Chronicles".

A prince, a pirate, and a savior walk into a bar...

Edited October 8, 2014 by Curio

[Rumsy4]

It's both Ginny and the writing, IMO. For example, in The Tower, when Charming confesses to Snow that he's afraid he can't be a good father because of losing Emma, Snow says, "It's not your/our fault!" in a defensive tone. There's no look of regret or sorrow at the loss of her daughter. We also hear that Ginny requests more scenes with Snow and Regina.

I just can't give Snow the benefit of the doubt anymore. She just doesn't care about Emma. She cares a little more about Henry. But her soul is devoted to Charming, Regina, and Snoflake. It has really made me almost dislike Snow since 3B.

[KAOS Agent]

I honestly think the writers have no idea how badly they've destroyed the Snow/Emma relationship. I think in the finale when Emma came back and called her parents mom & dad (even though it was so completely unearned and didn't deal with any of the issues like the Echo Cave thing), we were supposed to see that the Charmings are all one big happy family now that Emma has seen the light or whatever (as if she can just flip a switch and get over 28 years of abandonment issues).  I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt with Snow's lack of involvement in Emma's story in "White Out" due to Ginny's need for reduced screen time, but the release of the Snow/Regina deleted scene pretty much took care of that. It's so much more important for Snow to ask Regina for advice than to show her having any concern about her dying daughter. Still, Ginny was there for that final scene. All they needed her to do was shoot a concerned look at Emma (not that oddly jealous look at Elsa) and ask "What happened?" or "Emma, are you alright?" and I would have been okay. Alternately, they could have had Snow resolve the power issue before the Emma rescue so that she was there to help Emma when they all arrived at the loft. No extra time required for the final cut. Pretty simple.

 

I do think that perhaps Echo Cave was setting up something further down the road and now that the baby is here, they may kind of sort of address it - although an adult woman being jealous of a newborn is a really fine line to write without Emma coming off as irrational. In some ways, I'd just like Snow to realize just how much Emma missed out on by not having a family and starting to gain a better understanding of where Emma's coming from and just why she was so angry at her parents. I never got the impression that Snow fully understands why Emma was so angry despite Emma straight up telling her in "Broken" and "Lost Girl". It's not entirely her fault (although letting Regina go does put some of the blame for what happened later on Snow's shoulders), but I would like to see her express her understanding, apologize and tell Emma that she loves her. And follow that up by acting like it. 

[Camera One]

When Snow came in she said to or about Elsa, "who are you" or "who is this"?  If she had even just said "what's going on, what happened?", that would have been a little evidence that she gave a crap about her own daughter, versus the stranger in her apartment.

 

Such a simple fix.  That whole "who are you" thing was weird regardless of this issue.

 

 

 

I say this with the understanding that it's this show, so it's entirely possible that it's unintentional, but it must be on purpose on the part of the directing and acting (and writing), right?

 

I don't think it's intentional because this show isn't subtle.  If something was meant to be intentional, we would know it and it would be expressed at five different levels.  

 

The root is the writing.  I don't remember any recent lines that Goodwin could have delivered in a motherly way, especially when a lot of them are basically providing exposition.  In 3B, Snow wasn't even in many of the scenes with Emma's most vulnerable moments, so what was there to react to?  The writing guides the direction. The scene at the end of "White Out" was meant for Charming's speech to move Henry to talk to Regina.  So that was where the director focused.  Especially if they film scenes out of order, the director might not even remember that Snow had no idea Emma was trapped in ice.  

 

Since the root is the writing, it's only the writing that can fix it.  I think it's unfair to say Josh Dallas is way better at conveying being a parent than Ginnifer Goodwin when we have seen she can do emotional scenes with Emma to powerful effect.  

 

 

 

For example, in The Tower, when Charming confesses to Snow that he's afraid he can't be a good father because of losing Emma, Snow says, "It's not your/our fault!" in a defensive tone. There's no look of regret or sorrow at the loss of her daughter.

 

I must say I too was really disappointed with that line delivery.  Though the line itself also sucked.  Since they couldn't/wouldn't devote an episode to Snow and Charming dealing with the grief of losing Emma because we needed to see another Zelena or Cora flashback.

 

But I'm not going to criticize a woman who gave birth two days ago for just about anything. She's lucky she remembers her own name(s) and manages to sleep or take a shower. Meals for herself are practically optional.

 

At this point, I think it's still fixable, if they actually care enough to.  It's not hard to believe Snow would be out of it in 3B when she woke up a week from giving birth and not remembering when she became pregnant.  Ditto now when she's sleep deprived with a newborn, as Shanna Marie said.  But the final scene in "White Out" suggests the whole Emma/Snow thing is actually completely off their radar.  We saw some awesome Emma/Charming stuff in "White Out", but how does it mesh with the whole "out of sight out of mind stuff" with Emma in the Missing Year?  It doesn't and the only conclusion I can draw is they don't care about the character dynamics between Emma and her parents all that much.  It goes back to 3A where Snow's revelation and Charming's revelation in the Echo Cave failed to result in an episode or even a subplot devoted to Emma responding to those and working through them together as a unit of three.  Instead, it was allotted to the love triangle.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Camera One

[regularlyleaded]

I don't remember any recent lines that Goodwin could have delivered in a motherly way, especially when a lot of them are basically providing exposition.  In 3B, Snow wasn't even in many of the scenes with Emma's most vulnerable moments, so what was there to react to?

Well, I wasn't thinking of scripted lines or moments that Emma was vulnerable. Of the moments that I was referring to from S2 (that were nonexistent in S3B) one was in "Broken" when Emma is talking to Charming in front of the jail cell (after the wraith attack) and is telling him they should protect Regina. Emma says something like, "I promised Henry I would protect her so she's not dying" and the camera quickly flashes over to Snow and Snow has this look on her face that I could only interpret as motherly and proud. The other moment was in "The Cricket Game" where Emma is again talking to David and telling him they should give Regina the benefit of the doubt (that she didn't kill Archie) and again, Snow looks at Emma with a very tender motherly expression.

 

Both of  those were just moments where Emma was just being herself and not emotionally vulnerable (it's not like they were having a heart-to-heart chat) and Snow would just get this mom look on her face.  And we didn't see any of that in 3B and they shared more than enough scenes where there could've been a quick 2 second glance from Snow. Hence, to me the fact that those glances (from Snow) weren't there anywhere in the latter half of season 3, and in light of Snow's Echo Cave confession in 3A, well, it was really glaring. (But, yes, to your point about the writing, chances are we pay more attention to these things than the writers do, so...)

 

(Though, I just realized in both those instances (from S2), Emma was defending Regina so it could be that Snow was happy because Emma was defending her (Snow's) evil step-mommy that Snow still loves against all logic, reasoning, and the instincts of self-preservation. Maybe Snow wasn't thinking about Emma at all in those glances. Maybe Snow was just thinking "Aww, she loves her step-grandma as much as I do!" ...meh, I'm giving Snow the benefit of the doubt and assuming those were motherly love amazeballs glances for Emma herself.)

Edited October 9, 2014 by regularlyleaded

[Dani-Ellie]

It's so much more important for Snow to ask Regina for advice than to show her having any concern about her dying daughter. Still, Ginny was there for that final scene. All they needed her to do was shoot a concerned look at Emma (not that oddly jealous look at Elsa) and ask "What happened?" or "Emma, are you alright?" and I would have been okay. Alternately, they could have had Snow resolve the power issue before the Emma rescue so that she was there to help Emma when they all arrived at the loft. No extra time required for the final cut. Pretty simple.

 

Word.

 

Let's say I buy their logic that all the issues boiled down to Emma keeping Snow away. (I mean, I don't but let's engage in a little bit of devil's advocate, here.) Now that Emma's open to the relationship, where's the reciprocation on Snow's end? If the entire problem was Emma not allowing Snow to be there for her, I would very much like to see Snow actually being there for her now that the "roadblock" is gone. They can't try to sell me on "Oh, it was all Emma" and then have Snow completely absent at a point in the series when Emma arguably needed her the most.

 

And like I said, I completely get that they were writing around real-life circumstances, here, but I really question why those chose to write what they wrote for her. I would love to believe that it's unintentional but I can't believe that nobody on the production team sees the problems here. The writers writing the scripts, the directors telling the actors how and what to play, the editors putting the final product together. There are a lot of eyes that pore over the product before it makes it to air, and I find it very hard to believe it hasn't caught the attention of someone. 

 

If it's not intentional, I would think there would be an attempt to fix it. It's not like this is a new thing ... we've been discussing this since 3x06. That's almost a full season now. Instead, the wedge is being driven deeper and deeper, culminating in there being no reaction whatsoever from a mother who arrived home to find her daughter half-frozen to death.

 

ETA:

 

 

 

In 3B, Snow wasn't even in many of the scenes with Emma's most vulnerable moments, so what was there to react to?

 

"It was home to us." "That's because you forgot about us."

 

Here Emma was, trying to explain why she wants to go back to New York (because she was happy and she'd found a sense of belonging she'd been searching for her whole life) and Snow just completely dismissed it.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[scenicbyway]

I've been re watching the first two seasons and I can see where Emma and Snow's relationship was really a focal point of the show.  Emma learned to accept her changed relationship with Mary Margaret, now Snow, now "Mom."  Now the show has moved on to show her bonding with her father (who's personality she seems to have) and with her love interest.  I've been thankful that we haven't heard the mantra "I have to get back to Henry" once this season or even during last season's finale.   

 

Emma and Snow don't seem upset by their relationship (especially since Emma's experience in saving her in the finale).  I do think part of the distance we are seeing is the fact that it's not practical that Snow would be running around solving the latest evil crisis since she's just given birth days before.  I also suspect that they are trying to give Ginny a lighter schedule since she came back from having her own baby so quickly.  I like seeing Emma grow and interact with other characters, so the lack of Snow isn't bothering me, especially since Snow doesn't always seem to be a fan of Hook.

 

In season 3, other than a few moments in Neverland, the only time Snow seemed motherly was when she was trying to push Emma into a relationship with Neal.  I don't want that "motherly" version back.

Edited October 9, 2014 by scenicbyway

[Camera One]

The writers writing the scripts, the directors telling the actors how and what to play, the editors putting the final product together. There are a lot of eyes that pore over the product before it makes it to air, and I find it very hard to believe it hasn't caught the attention of someone. 

 

But the "eyes" with the power are the writers.  The headwriters, to be exact.  Now, the situation with the last scene of "White Out" I agree should have been caught by *someone* since it bothered on continuity error.  But I don't think a director can do much with a relationship which isn't there on paper.

 

 

 

If it's not intentional, I would think there would be an attempt to fix it.

 

I think they are not fixing it because Eddy and Adam don't see it as a problem?

 

 

 

It's not like this is a new thing ... we've been discussing this since 3x06. That's almost a full season now.

 

The problem is - we've seen it.  But who are we?   I suppose Adam and Eddy could argue we are hypersensitive, but I insist we are not.  

 

 

 

Here Emma was, trying to explain why she wants to go back to New York (because she was happy and she'd found a sense of belonging she'd been searching for her whole life) and Snow just completely dismissed it.

 

The writers wrote lines to Snow dismissing it, because to Adam and Eddy (as we all saw in the Season 3 finale), the whole "character journey" was for Emma to somehow realize that Storybrooke was home.  The writers could have written a longer scene, heck, build an entire B plot for the episode with Snow trying to convince Emma to stay.  But they didn't because to the writers, all that mattered was showing Emma rejecting Storybrooke so she could "learn" it was home later on. 

Edited October 9, 2014 by Camera One

[stealinghome]

And like I said, I completely get that they were writing around real-life circumstances, here, but I really question why those chose to write what they wrote for her. I would love to believe that it's unintentional but I can't believe that nobody on the production team sees the problems here.

I actually think the logistical problem here isn't Snow, but Regina--as in, Snow is basically Regina's only "friend" at this point (especially as Regina's pissed at Emma, which, whatever, but let's roll with it). As Regina's main drama is Outlaw Queen right now, she's entirely isolated from the rest of the cast--out on a storyline island. Which suits ME just fine, but the show really can't have Regina ranting to herself off in a corner for 11 episodes (and we all know the world would explode if she's off-screen all that long). SO, because Snow is the only adult in town who will give Regina the time of day of her own free will, Snow becomes the sacrificial lamb to tie Regina into the other core cast. It's not really about Snow or Emma at all--shockingly--it's about Regina, and how to have Regina interact with the rest of the main cast.

Edited October 9, 2014 by stealinghome

[ParadoxLost]

I'm also of the opinion that they aren't creating a rift between Snow and Emma on purpose, they just aren't that interested.  The only way creating a rift makes sense is if they plan to have something actually come of it and I just don't buy that happening at all.

 

The really frustrating thing about the whole thing is how easily they could fix it.  When Hook pulled out the space heater, I actually thought 'hey that's cool, Snow actually helped save Emma too by getting the power back on' only to get slapped by Snow completely ignoring Emma.

 

All they need was for Charming to drop a line about how he called Snow and the power/heat would be restored soon and then Snow to glance in Emma's direction when she came in.  That alone would have let them use the same dialogue to convey concern for her families' safety instead of jealousy that a woman she didn't know was near Charming.

[Dani-Ellie]

I think they are not fixing it because Eddy and Adam don't see it as a problem?

 

And I'm just saying that's maddening, haha. I just ... don't see how they could not see this as a problem. Or if they do see it as a problem, why they don't care enough to try to fix it.

[Camera One]

That is another great fix.  They could even have thrown in a line with Snow in the power plant, saying she needs to do it for Emma.

 

Despite all the screentime they're throwing at Snow and Regina (all those wasted minutes in 3B), even that development sucks.  They didn't properly develop the rebuilding of Snow and Regina's relationship at all.  So if they think that's important and they're developing time to it, and that's the result... I really have no words.   They didn't think Regina should at least apologize to Snow for killing her father and trying to kill her over and over and over again before they started having heart to hearts?

Edited October 9, 2014 by Camera One

[stealinghome]

Honestly, I don't even think they think Snow/Regina is that important. 3B felt very much like "we're just going to pretend these 2 actually buried the hatchet so we don't have to keep talkig about their relationship."

[scenicbyway]

I willing to give Snow a little slack in the closing scene.  She's been holding her baby for hours (where was the stroller?), dealing with crazy towns people and apparently Regina too, she figures out a way to get the power back on (even though that line is still down) she barely makes it into the room to find a woman in a sparkly dress being comforted by her husband.  Emma was facing away from the door so how could sleep deprived Snow even realize what was happening with Emma in the length of the scene?

 

I'm more upset with Rumple and Belle choosing to stay out of the new drama than Regina's whining.  Emma's supported Rumple many times and worked hard to get him back to Belle in 3b.  As thanks, the moment her life is in danger they just grouse about their honeymoon (inventory?) being interrupted.  Whatever.

[Camera One]

I willing to give Snow a little slack in the closing scene.  She's been holding her baby for hours (where was the stroller?), dealing with crazy towns people and apparently Regina too, she figures out a way to get the power back on (even though that line is still down) she barely makes it into the room to find a woman in a sparkly dress being comforted by her husband.  Emma was facing away from the door so how could sleep deprived Snow even realize what was happening with Emma in the length of the scene?

 

I just rewatched that scene and followed Snow's eyes.  She walks in the door, and directly looks to the right, to where Elsa and Charming are standing.  As Charming talks, her eyes actually follow him, even looking at his face as he is speaking.  Then she looks back at Elsa and then back at Charming to listen while he is talking.  She never looks beyond to the other side of the room, where Emma is.  And as scenicbyway said, Emma is actually facing with her back to the door, so even if Snow looked in that direction, there was no way she could see her ashen face. 

 

The staging of the whole thing still sucks, but the writer could mount a defence for why they didn't have Snow mention Emma.

 

I agree about the Belle thing.  I just cannot believe she didn't at the very least chide Rumple for what he was saying.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Camera One