Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[Amerilla]

I'd also really like a Fandom thread. But since I can never come up with a clever forum title, I should leave that to others :-)

[Souris]

I just started one!

[Jean]

 

Getting super overwrought over fictional romantic relationships doesn't pull me in.  I like analyzing all of the relationships, probably especially parent-child, and platonic friendships (as I think these can constitute "soulmates") and not get my undies in a bundle about any of it.

I have a theory on this, that Once has devolved into a siren call for rabid shippers because there's literally nothing else and it's the lowest hanging fruit. Hey trash in, trash out.

 

Look at what they did to Rumple and Bae. Good gawd and they have Robert Carlyle to play it for them in all its glory. Why? It pratically writes itself and yet it's like they went out of their way to avoid it and then destroy it.  I don't care as much about Emma/Charmings but I know others do on here and they pretty much torpedoed Snow/Emma. Remember all the cool dynamics of S1 between Snow/the yet to be haloed St. Woegina, Snow/Rumple, Snow/Ruby, Snow/dwarves, Jefferson/Emma, Gold/Emma, Mary M/Emma, Gold/Rumple and everyone in existence. Gold even made August interesting!

 

And not just relationships, but characters too. Now is it really worth analyzing the characters individually? Look at what they did to Snow. I mean sure we can sit here and analyze her (or anyone) but it'd be heavy fanwank and against canon or what is claimed by A&E.

[FabulousTater]

Over in the “Lost Girl” episode thread there was discussion about Emma admitting that she still felt like an orphan and Shanna Marie noted that Emma has been really good about not bringing up to her parents how much her life has sucked. Like, there’s pretty much been zero discussion on the matter between Emma and her parents.
 
It's really such a disservice to that relationship that the writing blatantly chooses to ignore it because as a consequence of that non-discussion, I don’t think Snow and Charming really get how much Emma’s life sucked for her. Even though in “Lost Girl” Emma told Snow point blank that she still felt like a lonely, unwanted orphan, my perception is that Snowing really don’t get how bad things were for Emma. Because if your child that you stuck in a wardrobe to save from a curse, a child that you supposedly loved soooo much, that when they find you (in what seems like a blink of an eye to you but a lifetime for them), you discover how just plain bad and lonely their entire life had been, and yet you’re actively choosing to zip away to another world/universe/dimension without them where you’ll never see or speak to them again, or deciding to live Neverland (yes, due to extenuating circumstances but, again, ZERO thought about your daughter who told you still feels like an orphan) then I just don’t understand. This does not compute to me.
 
It’s probably just me who can’t wrap my head around it, but I can’t fathom leaving behind your child (even if they are a full-grown adult) when you knew they’d been that hurt and desperately lonely all their life and searching for family, ie., you. I mean, even if my kid was running away from me because they were afraid of getting emotionally attached, I would be behind them at every turn so when they stopped running they knew that they weren’t alone anymore. I would have to hear the words “Go away. Leave me alone. I don't want anything to do with you.” coming from my own kid before I stopped out of respect for their choice. But even then I’d say “Okay, but here’s my phone number, in case you change your mind.” I definitely would not be relocating to another (unreachable) universe. I feel like I would owe it to them to stick around the same universe because on the off-chance they changed their mind, I'd want to be there and not have them find out that they are still alone.
 
Pfft, I think I’m going soft. What have you done to me, Show?! You've made me a sap (and possibly a stalker). FML.
(And on another note, this is the most bizarre hypothetical parental situation I've ever discussed.)

[Dani-Ellie]

It’s probably just me who can’t wrap my head around it, but I can’t fathom leaving behind your child (even if they are a full-grown adult) when you knew they’d been that hurt and desperately lonely all their life and searching for family, ie., you.

 

It's not just you. I don't get it, either. I completely understand that it's a consequence of writing not forcing the issue, but at the same time, do the writers not understand how this looks? That here you have a character who grew up ignored, unloved, and unwanted, a character who's been second or third or twenty-fifth in everyone's eyes her entire life. She's spent her life searching for her family, people to call hers and people who want to call her theirs.

 

Snow and Charming have an opportunity to change that. They have an opportunity to make her feel loved and wanted but they can't do that from Neverland. They can't do that if they're in a place they can't see her or talk to her or touch her. And one would think, as her parents, they would want that for her. They would want her to feel loved and wanted. They wouldn't want her to go through her life feeling like a lost little girl who doesn't matter and doesn't think she ever will.

 

And yet there's no discussion onscreen about any of it. It's maddening because I don't at all believe that Snow and Charming don't give her a second thought, but at the same time, there is no televised evidence to support this belief. I shouldn't have to maybe if I squint find televised evidence that Emma's parents want to be with her.

 

There should have been some mention of her in the Neverland discussion ... even if it was just a line of, "But what about Emma?" or "How do we tell Emma?" Four or five words, writers, come on. There should have been some mention of her during the missing year flashbacks prior to the meeting with Glinda, even if all it was was Snow fingering something of Emma's she'd managed to tuck into a pocket or a drawing Neal made of her for them or something. If we'd seen even one televised piece of evidence that they missed her, it would have felt less to me like they only cared about finding her when they needed her to save her unborn sibling.

 

It's like the writing can't connect its own dots. They're the ones who created the situation but they completely ignore the logical consequences of the situation they created (which happens a lot with this show). And because of that, we're left with parents of an admittedly grown but highly emotionally damaged woman who make her promises they don't keep.

 

Kids push parents away ... learning to deal with that is part of being a parent. And maybe they did feel like "We're not reaching her, so welp, nothing we can do," but eventually Emma was going to come around -- as she did -- and eventually she would want her family -- as she did -- and if they had stayed in Neverland like they planned to before their daughter was like, "WTF, guys?", they would have missed the opportunity entirely. Being there and being a support system for your kid is not something that goes away, whether the kid is five or fifty-five. I know I'd said this on TWoP a lot but parenthood is so much more than ABCs and 123s. Emma may not need a mommy and a daddy, but she still needs her mother and father.

Edited August 25, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[Shanna Marie]

I think a lot of the problem is their apparent policy that only Regina is allowed to have emotional responses to anything, which leaves everyone else looking cold and uncaring. Regina's having a meltdown upon the return to the Enchanted Forest because she had to leave Henry behind, while Snow and David are like, "Well, moving on." But I bet if you asked the Brothers Dimm why Snow and Charming didn't miss Emma when they had to return and leave her behind, they'd insist that they totally did. Then if you asked for specific examples to prove it, they'd probably get an amusing deer-in-the-headlights look when they realized they couldn't think of anything, then get all defensive and claim that we should know that because Snow and Charming are good people, we can just assume that they love their daughter, while it's more important to prove that the Evil Queen really is capable of love by showing her having a total meltdown about losing Henry.

 

And it really wouldn't have taken much to flesh out the relationships -- let Emma and Snow have actual reactions to the revelation that David has to stay on Neverland to stay alive, then show Snow being torn about whether to stay with her husband or go with her daughter, with David being all self-sacrificing and saying she has to go with Emma and let Emma hear of the plans and insist on Snow staying so David won't be alone. Or, really, what would have been most in character was for them not to talk about it at all and Snow keep going in her state of optimistic denial that it would work out somehow and they'd all get to be together and nobody would die. David and Emma, the more pragmatic ones, might bring up how they're going to deal with it, and Snow would be all, "It's going to work out because it always does and we'll always be together and we'll find a cure." Which they did.

 

Then if Snow's in denial about that, we don't have to worry about that "you aren't an orphan anymore/oops, see ya" switch, and they even could have set up the dynamic that they talked about in the season finale, with Snow really trying to mother Emma and Emma giving her the "who the hell are you?" treatment (that even could have fit with Snow wanting to go with Emma instead of staying with David, and Emma's reaction being "Um, why?"). Then Emma would have had reason to feel like she was part of the reason their relationship wasn't all that great.

 

The Charmings should definitely have been allowed a moment or two of grief upon returning to the Enchanted Forest, and I'd have loved it if Snow had been allowed to lash out at Regina about her "poor me" whining when Snow has now gone through this twice, and it's Regina's fault.

[Dani-Ellie]

And it really wouldn't have taken much to flesh out the relationships

 

This is part of what makes the whole thing so frustrating for me. Many of my problems with the story would be so easy to fix. All it would take is a tiny bit of attention in the writers' room to the fact that all of the characters' emotional reactions matter. It's not like I'm asking for a seasons' worth of Charming Family boding (though I would not at all complain if we got that!). I'm just saying, give us something. What we "should" know is much, much different than what we're being shown. The way to tell an emotionally satisfying story is not to skip over the meat of it and say, "Here you go, they're a family now!" A large part of the satisfaction for me comes from witnessing the entire emotional journey -- everyone's emotional journey, not just one character's or another's.

 

Just as someone could argue that we should know Snow and Charming love Emma, so why do we need to see it, I could argue that we also should know by now that Regina loves Henry (as the show has spent two years telling us), so why do we need to see that? Why does Regina's pain and grief at losing Henry get the story attention while Snow's and Charming's pain and grief at losing Emma for the second time get literally no mention whatsoever? Why are some main characters footnotes while others are the entire article? 

[stealinghome]

I think a lot of the problem is their apparent policy that only Regina is allowed to have emotional responses to anything, which leaves everyone else looking cold and uncaring. Regina's having a meltdown upon the return to the Enchanted Forest because she had to leave Henry behind, while Snow and David are like, "Well, moving on." But I bet if you asked the Brothers Dimm why Snow and Charming didn't miss Emma when they had to return and leave her behind, they'd insist that they totally did. Then if you asked for specific examples to prove it, they'd probably get an amusing deer-in-the-headlights look when they realized they couldn't think of anything, then get all defensive and claim that we should know that because Snow and Charming are good people, we can just assume that they love their daughter, while it's more important to prove that the Evil Queen really is capable of love by showing her having a total meltdown about losing Henry.

In my more charitable moments, I have actually wondered whether the overwhelming focus on Regina's (and Woegina's) emotional reactions is, in fact, because they assume that we know Snow and Charming love Emma but we can't be sure Regina has positive emotions. Like I actually have wondered if that's part of the rationale. Edited August 26, 2014 by stealinghome

[Mari]

In my more charitable moments, I have actually wondered whether the overwhelming focus on Regina's (and Woegina's) emotional reactions is, in fact, because they assume that we know Snow and Charming love Emma but we can't be sure Regina has positive emotions. Like I actually have wondered if that's part of the rationale.

 

I think you're both right--they probably do think that of course we know the Charmings love Emma, and think they've demonstrated that because they've never stopped to think about it.

 

The problem is that we don't know that the Charmings love Emma.  We know they very much wanted her, and that they did everything they could to save her life.  However, loving the infant you named Emma is not the same thing as loving the adult named Emma that infant grew into.

 

I have no questions that the Charmings intended to love adult Emma.  But, ONCE has shown over and over again that while the they intend to love Emma, Snow and David do not think usually about her if she is not there.  She is not necessary to their happiness, and she does not have the relationship with them that they--particularly Snow--wanted.  And the logic that "They're good people, of course they love her." is, well, logicless. 

 

The Charmings are good people.  But they are good people that lost an infant and gained an adult, in circumstances where they did not realize the years were passing.  They had no time to process the grief and anger for losing the infant, and the adult they gained is also a good person, but is completely different than the adult they had imagined--and being good people doesn't mean they love someone immediately after knowing his/her name with no problems whatsoever.  The Charming family trio would need to learn to love each other, just like every other family that forms after the child is out of babyhood.

 

Whether the Brothers Dimm realize it or not, they have told us a story where Snow and David like, but do not love, their grown child.  If there aren't at least hints of love from them,  it's not canon.  Telling us afterwards "Um, yeah, they do love her.  Really."  doesn't make it canon--especially if the story they've told pretty much contradicts that.

[Curio]

So I've been thinking about whether or not Tink's soul mate fairy dust stuff still applies to the present timeline for Regina and Robin. Maybe Tink's dust only applied to the younger Regina and Robin at that specific point in time in the past. Like, what if the young Regina who showed up at the tavern could only have had a truly happy life with Robin if she went for him then and there. People change throughout their lives and personalities can drastically change, so maybe older Robin and Regina aren't actually soul mates anymore. (I know I sure as hell would not have gone for my significant other if we initially met 10 years ago!) If that makes any sense...

 

I feel like we need to see Tink bust out that dust again and see if it actually leads toward Robin now that he's had a life with Marian and a son. 

[Mari]

So I've been thinking about whether or not Tink's soul mate fairy dust stuff still applies to the present timeline for Regina and Robin. Maybe Tink's dust only applied to the younger Regina and Robin at that specific point in time in the past. Like, what if the young Regina who showed up at the tavern could only have had a truly happy life with Robin if she went for him then and there. People change throughout their lives and personalities can drastically change, so maybe older Robin and Regina aren't actually soul mates anymore. (I know I sure as hell would not have gone for my significant other if we initially met 10 years ago!) If that makes any sense...

 

I feel like we need to see Tink bust out that dust again and see if it actually leads toward Robin now that he's had a life with Marian and a son. 

It would make perfect sense to explore this idea--it would make a rich and layered story--if the Brothers Dimm were willing to allow Regina to live with some of the consequences of her actions.  True Love that might've been would be an interesting idea to explore--and they've set groundwork for it, already.

 

*  Emma/Neal--True Love potential that was broken when Neal chose running away because he feared his father, instead of fighting for a relationship with Emma.  The parties still care, but are unable to reconnect because of the ruined trust.

 

*  Regina/Robin--True Love potential that never took firm root simply because it was rejected by one of the parties--they are still attracted, but do not last because they moved in such different directions.

 

*  Belle/Rumple--True Love that died because it was damaged over and over again by betrayal of trust and conscious rejection of it in favor of power.

 

If the show were honest about it, all three of these couples were damaged--possibly beyond recovery--by choices made by one or both of the characters in the relationship.  There should be ramifications if you send your girlfriend to prison because you are too afraid to stay with her.  There should be ramifications if you chose to become a mass murderer instead of meeting your true love.  There should be ramifications if you repeatedly manipulate your true love and reject love in favor of power.

 

I don't see it happening, though.  They don't seem capable of letting Regina actually live with the fall-out of her own actions.

[KingOfHearts]

Very nice thoughts, Curio!

 

The dust is another fuzzy area because of the lack of solid worldbuilding. The show hasn't answered several burning questions about it - What does "soulmates" mean in the show? Can who your soulmate is change to someone else? How do soulmates differ from True Love? These questions might be speculatively answered on these forums, but they haven't been addressed on the show. In fact, A&E were asked what soulmates were, and they totally avoided the question.

 

This show puts in huge blanks we have to fill in in sooo many places. I get they want to leave a lot of the interpretation up to the viewers, but sometimes it's just downright annoying because it doesn't line up no matter how far you tilt your head.

Edited August 26, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[FabulousTater]

 There should be ramifications if you send your girlfriend to prison because you are too afraid to stay with her.

The ramification was that the girlfriend's parents named her baby brother after the guy who sent her to prison. It's the response that any decent writer would script. I mean, that's like item number one under "Things to do to the boyfriend who dicked over your teenage daughter". It is known.

[ShadowFacts]

Riffing off what Curio and Mari said, (if we are to swallow the fairy dust garbage to begin with), if one person in the couple rejects the fairy dust revelation, is the other "soulmate" supposed to remain unfulfilled forever?  We know Robin went on to Marian, who he just recently told Regina he would have marched through hell for, so it looks like the answer is no, that unchosen one is not fated to be alone and/or unhappy.  The one who chooses to reject the fairy dust then forfeits only their chance at soulmatehood?  Let's face it, we're putting more thought into this than the writers.

[Mari]

The one who chooses to reject the fairy dust then forfeits only their chance at soulmatehood?  Let's face it, we're putting more thought into this than the writers.

Yes.  And there is a difference between these two scenarios:

 

a)  two people who meet at, say, 20, and spend the next ten years either dealing with problems together, or finding each other over and over again until it sticks

           and

b)  people who met--or could've met--at 20, and then didn't see each other for ten years while they both went through huge, huge life changing (and evilifying) activities before they reunite.

 

The Regina and Robin that would've been soulmates have both had some huge, huge soul changes since then;  one of them became a sorcerer who tortured people, one of them was tortured by a sorcerer, for example.  They are not the same people the pixie dust worked on, and that should be reflected in the story.

[Shanna Marie]

So I've been thinking about whether or not Tink's soul mate fairy dust stuff still applies to the present timeline for Regina and Robin. Maybe Tink's dust only applied to the younger Regina and Robin at that specific point in time in the past.

Yeah, I got pretty stabby when rewatching "Quite a Common Fairy" the other night and it got to the part where Tink told Regina that she didn't just ruin her own life when she chickened out, she ruined his. But he had a wife he adored and the most adorable child ever. Is that a ruined life? Regina herself had her big no regrets moment where she said she didn't regret anything she'd done because if she hadn't done it, she wouldn't have had Henry, so is Robin's life supposed to have sucked because he didn't meet Regina back then? That's such a gross concept. They might have been able to get away with that if the guy she'd seen in the tavern had ended up lonely and drunk, but when he has a much-loved family and a wife who's his canon mate? Would he prefer not to have Roland and to have spent his life with Regina? Not to mention that Regina was married at the time. Would it really have improved Robin's life to have run off with the king's wife? Leo was a marshmallow, but we know he didn't take well to the news that his wife might be having an affair.

 

There is the possibility (though probably not with these writers) that "soulmate" isn't necessarily romantic, and that meeting Robin would have opened her eyes to some cause or another that she would have then brought to her husband the king, and they would have all worked together on it. In doing so, she'd have turned away from hatred and really formed a family with her husband and stepdaughter and meanwhile Robin would have not become an outlaw. She'd have still stayed with her husband and Robin would have still ended up with Marian, but because Robin and Regina had met, their lives would have been so much better than if they hadn't met, and they'd have become like a family, all together. Instead, Robin ended up as an outlaw and Regina became evil and killed his wife.

[KingOfHearts]

 

But he had a wife he adored and the most adorable child ever. Is that a ruined life?

 

See, that's another thing the writers haven't really touched on much yet - what Robin's life was like with Marian and Roland. It may seem like it was good from what we've seen, but we've seen very little of Robin and his family's story. We don't know what really happened other than what characters have said. The only clues we really have to go by are what Tink said, the events of Lacey, and the lip service Robin and Marian have given us. If we knew more about his side of the story, I'd be able to wrap my head around the Marian situation ever so slightly better.

 

That's another issue Outlaw Queen has - Robin is so bland and unfilled-out that we have no idea why he even wants Regina.

Edited August 27, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Mari]

That's another issue Outlaw Queen has - Robin is so bland and unfilled-out that we have no idea why he even wants Regina.

She's bold and audacious and has a soft spot for children?

[Jean]

I think people are too stuck on the soul mates vs. true love thing. I'm pretty sure A&E sees them as the same thing. Certainly Lana seems to think so. She called them both true loves and soul mates. And I don't think she would claim that publicly if A&E hadn't given her a heads up. I mean they told her at the beginning of S3 that Woegina was the one that killed Marian so I don't think they're holding back info from her.

[FurryFury]

Yeah, I got pretty stabby when rewatching "Quite a Common Fairy" the other night and it got to the part where Tink told Regina that she didn't just ruin her own life when she chickened out, she ruined his. But he had a wife he adored and the most adorable child ever. Is that a ruined life?

 

Ironically, she did ruin his life... when she killed his beloved wife and the mother of his child. But hey, soulmates!

 

See, that's another thing the writers haven't really touched on much yet - what Robin's life was like with Marian and Roland. It may seem like it was good from what we've seen, but we've seen very little of Robin and his family's story. We don't know what really happened other than what characters have said.

 

We have no evidence against them being happy together and plenty of proof - Robin risked his freedom and life to save hers in his first appearance, Roland obviously loves both of his parents (him recognizing Marian in s3 finale was a true crowning moment of heartwarming, no matter how little sense it makes), and Robin was definitely grieving her death for a long time, as he told Regina. At this point if we'll suddenly learn that, for example, they were having marital problems and were on a verge of breaking up, I call bullshit.

 

See, that's another thing the writers haven't really touched on much yet - what Robin's life was like with Marian and Roland. It may seem like it was good from what we've seen, but we've seen very little of Robin and his family's story. We don't know what really happened other than what characters have said.

 

I suppose we'll get something next season, but I'm not sure if it's not too late. At the start of 3b, I might have been persuaded to, at least, tolerate this romance, but right now? Hate it with a passion, and no flashbacks will change that.

Edited August 27, 2014 by FurryFury

[YaddaYadda]

Regina that she didn't just ruin her own life when she chickened out, she ruined his. But he had a wife he adored and the most adorable child ever. Is that a ruined life?

 

I think it's mostly about the consequences of her later actions and becoming full on Evil Queen.  I'd think she ruined his life and his kid's life after she had his wife executed for trying to protect an innocent.  I know this is not how we're supposed to see it because Regina and all, but she kills the woman he'd walk through Hell for...

 

Wish Robin had two brain cells to rub together.

[KingOfHearts]

 

We have no evidence against them being happy together and plenty of proof - Robin risked his freedom and life to save hers in his first appearance, Roland obviously loves both of his parents (him recognizing Marian in s3 finale was a true crowning moment of heartwarming, no matter how little sense it makes), and Robin was definitely grieving her death for a long time, as he told Regina. At this point if we'll suddenly learn that, for example, they were having marital problems and were on a verge of breaking up, I call bullshit.

 

It takes a lot of faith in the writers to assume they'll keep it that way. If Robin and Marian were so happy and functional, then him choosing between Regina and Marian shouldn't be a question. But,

according to cast interviews,

it is. What person in his right mind would date the woman who killed his wife he dearly loved? See, even if they were "happily married", Robin is messed up just for that. He's dating a tyrant who slaughtered entire villages and oppressed the poor, going against everything he's ever stood for. Someone like that cannot be in a functional, healthy relationship, it's just not possible.

 

Something is not right here. Outlaw Queen and Marian coming back from the past is just messed up to me. You can bet the writers have something up their sleeve that's going to push it into even weirder territory. There's something else the writers haven't told us yet, and I can guarantee it. This is a Regina plot we're talking about - it's never simple.

Edited August 27, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[FurryFury]

What person in his right mind would date the woman who killed his wife he dearly loved?

 

A character written by Adam and Eddie, duh.

 

Basically, my approach to this dilemma is doylist rather than watsonian: the reason for Robin even questioning getting back together with Marian and thinking about Regina is that he's not a three-dimensional character but a cardboard cut-out who only exists to serve Regina and further her plot. They may try to justify it, but the truth is they don't care about Robin, or Marian, or anything else than Regina.

Edited August 27, 2014 by FurryFury

[Jean]

 

This is a Regina plot we're talking about - it's never simple.

 

Actually isn't it the opposite, that Woegina plots are always simple. Someone victimizes Woegina. She cries and whines and kills people. She's then hailed as the biggest victim ever and a saint. She cries and whines some more. Seriously that's all her stories in a nutshell.

 

The fact that we're sitting here all in complete agreement that there's only 2 posible outcomes to the Marian story says it all. Marian dies while hailing Woegina is Robin's trueest wuv and a saint. Or Marain is killed cause she's an evil bitch and Woegina cries and gets worshipped as the hero.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Actually isn't it the opposite, that Woegina plots are always simple.

 

Well, what I mean is, with Regina, it's always a bigger deal than it should be. She draws out and over-complicates. Take her situation with Snow, for example. She could have just forgiven Snow and moved on or worked it out with her. But that didn't happen. Instead, she started a wild man hunt that affected thousands of lives. She didn't even simply kill her - she had to kill a bunch of other people, poison an apple, etc. Then you have A&E trying to complicate it even further by saying Regina is the victim there.

 

Then you have the failsafe plot. The simple reasoning is Regina wants to kill everyone and it's a bad thing. But instead of just dealing with that, the writers got Greg and Tamara involved. Or you could take when Regina wanted to put herself under the sleeping curse - simply put, Regina was doing the selfish thing. Then right before she does it, the Wicked Witch comes in and Wicked vs. Evil begins. Every time Regina gets a plot, there's always something that comes in to complicate it or turn it a full 180.

 

The writers like to avoid anything basic or reasonable with her. You can even take Outlaw Queen for example - it's a love interest. Then what do the writers do? They throw in Marian and turn it into the Love Triangle of Doom for the drama factor.

 

Woegina's problems are simple, but the writing and storylines they give her are so sporadic.

Edited August 27, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[regularlyleaded]

I don't think that it' so  much complicated but rather that the writers have created a character that is essentially a narcissistic sociopath and they don't want to admit it. Regina displays a complete lack of empathy for others and their situation for which she is responsible, displays a heightened level of deceitfulness in dealing with others (pretending to be a peasant with Snow, and Ursula with Ariel are just a few examples), and an overwhelming tendency to "view others not as fellow human beings, but rather as tools or a means to an end. If certain other people are deemed unable to further the narcissistic sociopath's [Regina's] given agenda, they are normally cast aside."* (*thank you, google search). Regina has no boundaries when it comes to manipulating and victimizing others if doing so will lead to her own benefit, to the extent that she is violent, and oh, yes, a murderer.
 
But then the writers have the other characters (by "other" I mean the sane characters and NOT Snow) treat her like she's a hero, the victim, instead of the dangerous lunatic that she is, and to add insult to injury the writers champion the "SHE'S A HERO!" message in interviews. It's not complicated, it's delusional (and kinda disturbing) on the part of the writers.
 
Look, if the writers (and the other characters) were to recognize that Regina is mentally ill and approach her from that perspective, that they'are trying to handle and "treat" someone with a psychological disorder (step one: keep the children away from her), I would be less peeved at the Regina permaboner (I'd still dislike it but at least it would make sense). But that's not what they're doing. The writers are claiming that she's just a victim and a hero. That's an insult to my sensibilities, to common sense, and to the actual victims in the story.

[Shanna Marie]

The writers are claiming that she's just a victim and a hero. That's an insult to my sensibilities, to common sense, and to the actual victims in the story.

As with so many of the problems with this show, it would be so easy to fix to make it fit that she was a villain in the past but has now changed and is no longer such a narcissist. It would have taken maybe a couple of lines and a facial expression to show that she realized that what she felt in leaving Henry behind was what she'd put Snow through, and I don't think an apology at that point would have changed the plot, while it would have made the relationships afterward make a lot more sense. Then later, delete Snow's line about being a brat and have Regina acknowledge that she had Snow's father killed and let Regina take the blame for the relationship going south. Maybe have her realize from Zelena's insane targeting of her what it must have been like for Snow when she was insanely targeting her and have her apologize. I don't think it would have made her character less fun and meanwhile it would have made the way everyone treated her make more sense. She could have had one of those rare moments of sincerity that she then later tried to cover up with snark. I don't see why they're so reluctant to let her have any self-awareness or contrition if they want her to be at all good. Without it, she remains a narcissistic sociopath.

[KingOfHearts]

Spot on, Shanna Marie.

 

See, to me, Regina isn't the problem. She can be as villainous and whiny all she wants, and I really don't mind. What boggles my mind is that they want her to be redeemed yet they keep throwing it off for whatever reason. Every time she makes a little progress, it gets reverted almost immediately. They refuse to let her get a true redemption, but they also refuse to let her be a true villain.

 

In the same day she said "heroes don't kill" and threatened to kill Zelena if she misbehaved. In the same day she apologized to Belle and had an heart-to-heart conversation with Snow, yet she still didn't apologize to her. It's like baiting the viewers and wanting to please everyone, but that's a very wrong way to go down. Regina can't be the Evil Queen and redeemed at the same time. When you try to do both, you end up with neither. 

 

If you look at Regina as a character logically, she should have redeemed herself a long time ago. It's the writing that avoids it like the plague. Redeeming Regina is really not that hard - all it takes is a sincere apology to get it truly going. But for whatever reason, the writers have an agenda to keep her in a weird state. 

 

If they were really committed to her redemption arc, it would have been full steam ahead by the end of S2. Maybe if that were the case, she could have been a real hero in 3B.

Edited August 27, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Dani-Ellie]

Regina can't be the Evil Queen and redeemed at the same time. When you try to do both, you end up with neither.

 

Exactly. They never allow her to keep her character growth, either, so everything 3A built (I just rewatched "Quite a Common Fairy" and the speech she gives Tink, while mostly an attempt to convince Tink to spare her life, was really kind of refreshing in that it showed actual self-awareness) was completely undone by "I have no regrets." Completely undone. Because I feel like if she had it to do all over again, she'd make the same choices because all her murder and torture and cursing got her something in the end, and that's not redemption to me. That's not acknowledging wrongdoing. That's not making amends. That's "Yeah, you got screwed over, but look what I got, so who cares?"

 

That was a moment we were supposed to cheer for, so what, all those lives Regina took as the Evil Queen don't matter? Snow's persecution doesn't matter? King Leopold's death doesn't matter? Emma's lonely little lost girl childhood doesn't matter? It was all worth it because Regina got Henry? Yeah, maybe to Regina, but the other characters who were screwed over should beg to differ.

 

And then 3B was just ridiculous. Like, Mary Sue fanfiction levels of ridiculous. "Let's all bend over backwards to shower accolades on Regina, when she's done absolutely nothing to atone for her crimes against all of us." I have no problem with the other characters acknowledging the actual good deeds she's done, but she shouldn't get a pass on everything that came previously.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[Rumsy4]

In the same day she said "heroes don't kill" and threatened to kill Zelena if she misbehaved. In the same day she apologized to Belle and had an heart-to-heart conversation with Snow, yet she still didn't apologize to her. It's like baiting the viewers and wanting to please everyone, but that's a very wrong way to go down. Regina can't be the Evil Queen and redeemed at the same time. When you try to do both, you end up with neither. 

 

Word! They want to have their cake, and eat it too, when it comes to Regina. That's why Regina's become a joke, as far as I am concerned.

[Jean]

 

I don't see why they're so reluctant to let her have any self-awareness or contrition if they want her to be at all good.

 

Well for Woegina to have any self-awareness, the writers would need to be self-aware of what they wrote and put onscreen and clearly they don't. They legitimately see Woegina as the biggest victim ever. I don't think they threw that claim out that as a joke or meaningless sound bite. They sincerely believe that. It's not like that line is a made up hyperbole from Woegina haters. That is word for word what A&E said. They don't even qualify it.  Any scenario of so and so vs. Woegina, it's always Woegina is the wronged party to them. They believe the towns folk wronged Woegina by shunning her lasagna. Point blank said that. Did they ever bring up the fact that hey maybe the townsfolk have a good reason for not trusting her? No. It's Woegina changed and these people wronged her by not being able to see that. They are incapable of seeing any side but Woegina's. Snow is wrong. Emma is wrong. Rumple is wrong. Hook is wrong. Grumpy is wrong. Marian is wrong. Baby Owen was wrong.

 

It's not like they're incapable of writing self-aware characters in general either. Emma has admitted she's wrong a million times and knows exactly what her problem is. So has Hook. Snow is walking doormat and someone should put her out of her misery. Even Maleficent was self-aware about what she did to Aurora's mom and where the curse was going. Rumple is another character that keeps backsliding. But he's clearly capable of admitting that he's wrong. He just can't and won't change. That's different and way more palatable than what they do with Woegina, because they don't see her as being wrong.

 

 

They refuse to let her get a true redemption, but they also refuse to let her be a true villain.

It's not that they refuse. It's that they don't see her as a villain. They believe she's a victim. They also 100% believe she's been redeemed, since like S2. Any "oopsie" that goes on is blamed on someone else. It's not her fault and therefore she doesn't need redeeming. The person who wronged her is the one that needs to prostrate themselves at her feet. Or die. Any good deed she does is therefore a heroic act, a saintly act. The good deeds don't go towards her redemption, because she doesn't need it. It goes towards buffing her shiny halo and wings.

 

Just take the Marian story. They presented 1 viewpoint and guess whose it is. Emma effed up Woegina's precious life just like Momma Snow did. Is anyone ever going to bring up the fact that without Emma messing up history, Woegina killed her lover's wife? No. The only thing that will get said over and over is Woegina's a victim of Emma's carelessness. And when Woegina stops short of killing Emma, it'll be presented that it's because she has such a good heart and a generous spirit.

[ShadowFacts]

 

As with so many of the problems with this show, it would be so easy to fix to make it fit that she was a villain in the past but has now changed and is no longer such a narcissist.

 

I have no writing background, but as a garden variety reader of fiction and non-fiction and a viewer of serious and silly television, I don't think it would be easy, at least there's no way that would be palatable to me.  They just took her way, way too far into extreme, vicious murder and mayhem to make meaningful, believable change. 

 

 

Because I feel like if she had it to do all over again, she'd make the same choices because all her murder and torture and cursing got her something in the end, and that's not redemption to me. That's not acknowledging wrongdoing. That's not making amends. That's "Yeah, you got screwed over, but look what I got, so who cares?"

 

Exactly.  She would never be one to do an honest self-assessment, take inventory of her life, beg forgiveness and make amends, and then do it like a thousand more times to all her surviving victims.  Does that seem a little harsh on my part?   Because after that she'd have to go on trial for her crimes and then be locked up because she is a menace to society.  She doesn't get to go trotting back to her Stepford home. 

[KingOfHearts]

 

I don't think it would be easy, at least there's no way that would be palatable to me.  They just took her way, way too far into extreme, vicious murder and mayhem to make meaningful, believable change.

 

Turning her in the right direction would be easy, but not becoming fully redeemed. Redemption takes time because not only does it involve the person in question, but it also involves those who the person has hurt in the past. Saying, "I'm sorry for being bad, I want to be good!" is just the beginning of the process. There is still years of wrongdoing to deal with. Even the brain has to adjust to a new way of thinking, which can take a very, very long time. Just earning trust from anyone after the reputation you've gotten is a journey that takes a lot of hard work and effort.

 

Regina's redemption is no easy or short task, but choosing that path isn't necessarily difficult for the writers to have her do. They had that at the beginning of 2A when Regina apologized to Henry, but they reversed it when Cora came to town, and it's been an endless cycle ever since. The writers claim that Regina has had 66 episodes of redemption (or something to that effect), but it's more like 4 if you only count the ones she really had progress in.

Edited August 27, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

I have no writing background, but as a garden variety reader of fiction and non-fiction and a viewer of serious and silly television, I don't think it would be easy, at least there's no way that would be palatable to me.

I don't think her redemption is actually easy, nor should it be, but it wouldn't take much, writing-wise, to have set her on a more believable path to redemption. It's hard to comprehend that the people she wronged so badly are so quick to forgive and so willing to hang out with her socially and treat her like family, but it makes even less sense when she's never yet told them she was wrong to treat them so badly. She hasn't given them much reason to even believe it's safe to be around her, and that's what's so baffling.

 

If she'd at least apologized or started showing signs of empathy, then I could sort of believe Snow being Stupid Good enough to be overjoyed at being somewhat reconciled with her beloved stepmother, and I could believe Emma putting up with Regina to lessen the trauma on Henry. They'd have laid a groundwork toward Regina's ultimate redemption, even with some struggles along the way. If, say, she recognized from her pain at losing Henry what she'd put Snow through, then that would be an indication that she might be less likely to want to cause that kind of pain in the future. But since the person who devoted her adult life to trying to destroy them all hasn't yet said that maybe this was a bad idea and she will stop doing it, they have no reason to trust her.

 

And we know they know how to do this because they've done a decent job with Hook -- he specifically said he was done trying to kill Rumple, he's talked about recognizing where he went wrong and what choices he made in the past that were bad, he's shown shame about his past behavior, and he's grown enough of a conscience that when he slips and screws up, he immediately knows he's done the wrong thing and feels bad about it. Feeling guilt about doing the wrong thing is a good sign that someone's on the right path, and Regina doesn't seem to have ever felt any guilt. If she feels she's been right all along, how can they feel safe around her?

[Rumsy4]

 

If she feels she's been right all along, how can they feel safe around her?

 

The writers clearly think that Regina has gotten past mass murder and rape, and we are meant to as well. They expect us to take it in faith that she won't go full on raging psycho, as much as we are meant to take it in faith that Snow and Charming love Emma. They either expect the audience to fill in a lot of gaps by themselves, or they think they've done a good enough job. I suspect the latter to be the case more than the former, judging from interviews. :-p

Edited August 28, 2014 by Rumsy4

[FormerMod-a1]

Let's try to circle this back to Relationships, or please take the conversation to the Regina thread or the Villains thread.   Thank you!

[Alex]

The Charmings are good people.  But they are good people that lost an infant and gained an adult, in circumstances where they did not realize the years were passing.  They had no time to process the grief and anger for losing the infant, and the adult they gained is also a good person, but is completely different than the adult they had imagined--and being good people doesn't mean they love someone immediately after knowing his/her name with no problems whatsoever.  The Charming family trio would need to learn to love each other, just like every other family that forms after the child is out of babyhood.

 

I've jut finished rewatching "Lady of the Lake" and there is a moment, when they're leaving the nursery in Snow's castle when Snow looks back and see the nursery as it is now, in ruins, and as it was before, waiting for Emma and she cries. It was so sad and she had the expression of one that has lost someone/something, the grieving was palpable.

I don't recall how much season 2 lasts, but not much, plus more or less a month, this gives me a time for grieving the loss of her baby daughter to weeks, perhaps a couple of months, which is not much anyway.

 

I always thought that Snow was trying too hard to love adult Emma just because she's her daughter, but how can she truly love Emma if she isn't over the grief of losing her? I think that for David's it's different, as he didn't see the nursery, that physically symbolize (to me) giving up all their dreams of parenthood.

 

The mess of this relationship, Charmings/Emma, should take some time to tidy up. Perhaps now that Snow get to mother baby Neal and her sense of motherhood is thus fulfilled, perhaps now she'll be able to have a balanced mother/adult daughter relationship.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I think that for David's it's different, as he didn't see the nursery, that physically symbolize (to me) giving up all their dreams of parenthood.

 

He sort of did in The Tower when he had the nightmare sequence with Emma. It might not be the exact same effect, but it was a representation of the same subject.

[Serena]

I think the different is that David knew all along that he wouldn't get to raise Emma. Snow however was supposed to, and only realized she wouldn't get to do it like five minutes before the curse was cast. David definitely had more time to come to terms with it.

[stealinghome]

I also think it just comes down to a fundamental, basic difference in their personalities. David's the optimist, the glass half-full guy, who believes that things will work out okay and who always tries to make the best of the hand he gets dealt by life. (Que sera, sera.) Snow is the eternal pessimist, the glass half-empty gal, who actually has a rather depressive personality, a massive guilt complex, who tends to live and wallow in her regrets, and who always assumes that things will go wrong and she and her loved ones will be miserable.

 

So based on their personality types, it makes absolute sense to me that Snow will forever be haunted/hung up by the "could have been"s with Emma, will always be preoccupied with mourning what they lost, while Charming just pulls himself up by the bootstraps and tries to make the best relationship he can with Emma now, in the present, without dwelling on how things might have been different.

 

(Which is not to say that Charming doesn't regret and mourn what they lost with Emma, or that Snow doesn't love Emma as she is. Just that Charming tends to go 75/25 in one direction, while Snow tends to go 75/25 in the other.)

Edited August 28, 2014 by stealinghome

[KAOS Agent]

Snow and David also didn't grieve the loss of Emma for 30 years. They woke up from the curse and their last memories of their real selves was sending their newborn away. That newborn doesn't exist anymore. Instead, there is a very angry, closed off woman in her place. And while Emma is their daughter, the reality is that the child they sent away is gone forever. In some ways, both parents should be reacting like they would to the death of a child and I think that is why Snow clung so tightly to trying to mother Emma. While David was just happy to have her at all, Snow realized she was feeling some truly awful things about Emma - not about her as a person, but Emma really wasn't what Snow wanted and Snow didn't know how to process that at all. This is the confession from Echo Cave. Snow's solution of a redo baby isn't going to fix things for her, but it's also an understandable reaction. Add in how terrible Emma's childhood was and how messed up she is about it all and you've got a huge helping of guilt, confusion and self-hatred on Snow's part for having an internal rejection of the Emma she's faced with today instead of the one she had imagined raising herself. 

Edited August 28, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[Jean]

Honestly I think they just like writing for Snow and not Charming so Snow gets all the drama stuff. They also really take the stereotypical stance of mom/kid is more important than dad/kid except for Rumple but that's self-explanatory. But you know what? I'll take it. They suck at drama so I rather watch Emma and Charming teaming up on adventures or whatever instead of the hand wringing drama they give Snow. It does her character no favors.

 

 

The mess of this relationship, Charmings/Emma, should take some time to tidy up.

 

I'm pretty sure they considered it tidy and finished with Emma admitting that she's been a cold bitch to her parents. I'm not sure it needs to be raked up again at this point. It's the 4th season and you get a sense of damn move on and this should all be water under the bridge by now. This is what happens when they sit on their asses, picking their noses and do nothing.  Lost opportunity and all.

[KingOfHearts]

I can understand Snow feeling the way she felt in 2A about missing baby Emma. But it started hitting a more extreme end in 3A when she pushed adult Emma under the bus. Having a baby do-over is great, but Emma is still her daughter, and Snow is still her mother. She may not be her mommy, but she still has a role in her life that I haven't seen being fulfilled on the show. Charming has done well with it for the most part, but Snow hasn't seemed to even want to make the effort.

[YaddaYadda]

The big conversations, Emma has had them with David, not with Mary Margaret though.  I think she feels more of a kinship to him anyway.  I think they have at the very least managed to written a very typical father/daughter relationship with Emma and David (I don't know, maybe it's because it sort of reminds me of my relationship with my dad).  David is a lot more easy going and mellow than Snow is (I never know WTF to call her, seriously!).  He doesn't have that judgy streak and is a lot more level headed than she is and he can dispense some pretty good advice when he's allowed.

 

I'd honestly take a whole 40 minutes of David and Emma sitting at a booth at Granny's chatting away about just stuff. 

[stealinghome]

I think Emma is much more like Charming in personality, which also helps.

[Emma]

I'd honestly take a whole 40 minutes of David and Emma sitting at a booth at Granny's chatting away about just stuff.

Can I sign up for this too?

I don't think they can fix the Emma-Snow relationship for me so the less scenes they have together the better.

[KingOfHearts]

The Marian situation is so stupid. I loathe it. Regardless of Regina or any of the characters involved, it's dumb all around. I've seen a lot of fans, especially on social media, want Emma and Marian dead for it, no joke. Then I've seen the other side when it's used as an excuse to pound at Regina.  I can see that Regina is definitely at fault here (Robin is as well), but she is only part of the problem. No one person is the main culprit here - it's the writing.

 

Robin, Roland, and Marian are all plot devices. They're not written as real characters with feelings and choices. Outlaw Queen was only a thing to push Regina's arc in 3B. They needed Robin's love so she could use it to power her light magic in the final battle. Then with Marian, she's only there for the romantic angst and the season-end twist. They could have brought any dead lover on the show (Daniel, Neal, Milah) back to life and had the same effect. So why did they choose her? Because they like taking advantage of Regina's overreactions. It accumulates more drama than say if Neal were to come back.

 

The whole triangle is one big drama breeding ground, and nothing more. It's like the triangle in 3A - it was only there for Nevenger drama. It's all situated in a way that creates the most controversy. No matter what A&E do with it, I don't think anyone will be truly happy with the outcome. Not Regina, Robin, Marian or us viewers. All we can hope for is that whatever happens, it happens fast and we can move on to a storyline that's far more productive.

 

It feels like really poor storytelling just to get viewers talking. 

Edited August 29, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Serena]

I mean, if they'd brought back Neal or Milah, it wouldn't have had the same effect, because the people who would be involved in that triangle aren't crazy. Well, maybe Rumple. 

[Hookian]

 

Robin, Roland, and Marian are all plot devices. They're not written as real characters with feelings and choices. Outlaw Queen was only a thing to push Regina's arc in 3B. They needed Robin's love so she could use it to power her light magic in the final battle. Then with Marian, she's only there for the romantic angst and the season-end twist. They could have brought any dead lover on the show (Daniel, Neal, Milah) back to life and had the same effect. So why did they choose her? Because they like taking advantage of Regina's overreactions. It accumulates more drama than say if Neal were to come back.

 

The whole triangle is one big drama breeding ground, and nothing more. It's like the triangle in 3A - it was only there for Nevenger drama. It's all situated in a way that creates the most controversy. No matter what A&E do with it, I don't think anyone will be truly happy with the outcome. Not Regina, Robin, Marian or us viewers. All we can hope for is that whatever happens, it happens fast and we can move on to a storyline that's far more productive.

 

It feels like really poor storytelling just to get viewers talking. 

They chose her because OQ was having it way too easy, plain and simple. The other shoe was bound to drop eventually and they needed an obstacle thrown in the works. This is TV and by TV standards Robin/Regina had it way easier and we've seen how this show deals with their couples. Angst is always present, so it was bound to happen for OQ. Enter Marian, the obstacle. I call her that because that's what she is, sorry.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I mean, if they'd brought back Neal or Milah, it wouldn't have had the same effect, because the people who would be involved in that triangle aren't crazy. Well, maybe Rumple.

The same effect would be love angst at the end of the season - an old lover to throw a wrench into the works of a current couple to get shippers mad. I agree on Milah - that would cause issues with not only Rumpbelle but CaptainSwan too. (Even with sensible people, the writers know how to make it cray cray.)