Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[Rumsy4]

What's legality in Storybrooke? Half the main cast should have been thrown in jail for the shenanigans she pulled in Storybrooke alone!

[KingOfHearts]

What's legality in Storybrooke? Half the main cast should have been thrown in jail for the shenanigans she pulled in Storybrooke alone!

When Emma pulls Henry out of Storybrooke, it's not Storybrooke's legality that matters - its the government. Regina went to Boston to adopt Henry. It could become a court battle easily.

 

The court won't find her atrocities, either. Regina is a master manipulator. She covers her tracks well... except from Emma/Henry, of course.

Edited June 4, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

I know that Regina is a bane for most on this forum, me excluded, but like it or not, Regina never lost legal custody of Henry. Especially since Henry wants to stay, Emma has no ground to take him. It would be a straight-up kidnapping. (Emma tried that in S1... didn't work so well)

Actually, right now I'm pretty sure Regina has no legal custody to Henry at all. The curse she cast at the end of 3a gave sole legal custody of Henry to Emma, obviously--"Regina Mills" was completely erased from our world. All Emma and Henry's legal documents now say that Emma has sole custody. I see no indication that the curse Snowing cast somehow altered that, so right now I'm actually quite sure that Emma has 100% legal custody of Henry.

Ethical/moral custody, however, is a totally different question.

[KingOfHearts]

Actually, right now I'm pretty sure Regina has no legal custody to Henry at all. The curse she cast at the end of 3a gave sole legal custody of Henry to Emma, obviously--"Regina Mills" was completely erased from our world. 

That gets really iffy. That opens questions about what was left and what wasn't, such as Henry's camera, photos of Storybrooke and its fairy tale inhabitants in Henry's camera, Henry's clothing, and character deaths. But then again, Regina could always fabricate new documentation. There is a legal department in Storybrooke that handles documents, after all.

 

But that would seriously derail the topic. I think Henry's custody is a major point of debate, and it all depends on how you look at it. Nothing has been explicitly concrete by the plot yet.

Edited June 4, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

I have a good solution for the Henry dilemma.  It's a more permanent one though.

 

Season finale, Regina asked Emma if she was planning on going back to NYC and then told Henry they weren't going when Emma said it was complicated.  I would think Regina would have been all over how she had custody of Henry if that was still the case.

[FabulousTater]

That gets really iffy.

No, it's really not.

Nothing has been explicitly concrete by the plot yet.

Yes, it really has.

 

I made this post(s) on TWoP (yay! I get to plagiarize myself):

 

Regina does not have legal custody of Henry anymore. Because of the undoing of the original curse in "Going Home" everything that ever happened in Storybrooke and connected with it including Emma and Henry's memories AND Regina's adoption of Henry was all erased. It was all as if it never happened. [Regina states that explicitly in "Going Home"]. And plus, for Emma to have enrolled Henry in any school in NYC she would've had to prove that Henry was hers or legally in her custody. In the eyes of the law in the real world, as it stands now, Henry is legally Emma's.

 

The new curse cast by the Charmings did not undo Regina's curse in "Going Home". It did not suddenly give Henry and Emma their memories back and it did not suddenly return legal custody to Regina. That's not what happened. As of "Going Home", like it or not, Emma has legal custody of Henry. Period. Case Closed.

Now that doesn't negate that Henry now with his memories returned sees Regina as his (other) mom. So for Henry, Regina is still his mother. But in a real world court of law Emma is his mother/legal guardian. Emma could take Henry to the moon and Regina has no real world legal leg to stand on.

Edited June 4, 2014 by FabulousTater

[KingOfHearts]

The documentation just... disappeared for convenience perhaps.

 

How magic reaches out to the Land Without Magic to change or destroy legal documents, I'll never know.

Edited June 4, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[FormerMod-a1]

Moved a couple of posts here from the Emma thread.  Carry on.

[Rumsy4]

If we are talking legality, half the main characters in Storybrooke would be in prison--especially Regina, Rumple, and even, Snow. So--saying Regina still has legal rights over Henry is not going to wash. Regina would have lost custody of Henry in the real world for her multiple crimes, and Henry would be put back on the foster system. Emma would have to fight to gain custody of Henry.

[KingOfHearts]

I made a mistake to mention legality on this show, lol. Let's just stick with metaphoric and emotional custody/relationships from now on, shall we?

[Rumsy4]

Haha--yes. Henry, at any rate, seemed to think he would be going back to New York with Emma when Hook "let it slip" that she was planning on leaving. So, Henry at least seems to assume that Emma still has the "primary" custody, even if he may not put it to himself that way. True Love's Kiss or no, Emma still needs to be the primary guardian of Henry. Regina's still not stable enough to be trusted. However, if the snide remarks Regina kept making in 3B are any indication, she will attempt to undermine Emma's authority at every step in Season 4. 

[KingOfHearts]

I think this issue will be coming up in S4... Henry is already leaning toward Regina. We'll have to see how Emma reacts to that. I agree with you on the undermining. Regina just lost Robin - she's not about to lose Henry too. Not that he can control who has custody, but now that Henry is older, it's more about how he feels about it. He's been away for over year from the woman who raised him, so it's natural for him to want to cling back. But that's just speaking from what we saw in the last few episodes of 3B. It'll be interesting to see how all three parties play out in the coming season. Not expect a full-on custody battle (we DO NOT need to repeat that), just the question "Where do we go from here?"

Edited June 4, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

I don't know that Henry was leaning towards Regina in 3B.  I think he missed her when he finally remembered who she was.

 

I think that now that Regina has lost Robin and Roland, she might latch onto Henry even more though.

[KAOS Agent]

If this were a "real world" situation and by that I mean if the writers actually wrote Henry as the 12/13 year old he is, Henry would be interested in Regina/Charmings for a while but after a few weeks, he would be missing his friends and life in New York. That's not to say that he'd want to move back there, but that family would not be the end all be all after the initial novelty of it wears off. Growing teens are looking to become their own person and pull away from their parents because they no longer need them in the way they did when they were younger.

 

In terms of his mothers' relationships with him, Emma's way of parenting would work better with a teenage Henry because she doesn't see him as a little boy the way that Regina does. Emma also does not cling to Henry as the only person in her life. Even when he essentially was, Emma was out forming an outside relationship with Walsh while Henry was free to form lots of other relationships. Both had a healthy relationship with each other because both understand that bringing in others does not lessen their existing relationship - though Emma worries more about change than Henry. Regina, on the other hand, has a strong tendency to cling and not want to share Henry with others. She will need to start understanding that acting this way with a teenager is pretty much the worst thing she could do. I think Regina was getting to where she understood that she could have more in her life with Robin/Roland, but I think having Robin "taken" from her would cause her to right back to clinging to Henry in an unhealthy way and in real life that would create all kinds of problems with a teenage boy - especially one who has been living a very normal life for the last year. 

[Camera One]

 

or the writers don't care about character development of anyone whose name doesn't start with an R, which also sucks. 

 

Ha at the names starting with the letter R.  I think you hit the nail on the head, unfortunately.

[Serena]

So we end up with a  situation where we have no idea where the characters stand with each other. What should be does not match what is on screen. Based on what we've seen and what's been played, there's so much left up in the air but the writing makes it all seem like everyone's hunky-dory. So either a hell of a lot of character development is happening off-screen, which sucks, or the writers don't care about character development of anyone whose name doesn't start with an R, which also sucks. 

That's not fair. They also don't care about Robin. Or Red/Ruby. So I guess... they must start with "R" and rhyme with "Woegina"?

[Dani-Ellie]

Heh, my mistake. I was thinking of Regina and Rumple, but yeah, mostly Regina.

[Shanna Marie]

The discussion of the Marian/Regina/Robin thing in the spoiler thread got me started thinking, and I have to say that I just don't get the Outlaw Queen deal, whether or not she executed his wife. I don't understand what it is they like about each other, which is something I need to care about a relationship. I don't have to necessarily agree with them, but I need to know that they know what they feel and why. For instance, I may think Belle is delusional about Rumple, but even before the very on-the-nose wedding vows, I knew what she saw in him and why she was in that relationship. We've had enough cues given about Snow and Charming to get why they want to be together. If you asked Hook why he loved Emma, you'd better have brought a sandwich and a Snickers bar because you're going to be there for a while. He hasn't yet been given a full speech articulating his reasons, but you know that he knows what he digs about her, and you get some hints from the way he reacts to the things she says or does.

 

I don't get any of that from either Robin or Regina. We saw him checking out her ass, and she went for it because of the fairy dust/tattoo thing, and they like kissing each other, but what do they see in each other? They pretty much hated each other in the Enchanted Forest, and if that was meant to be UST-laden banter, they were doing it wrong because it came across as very mean, and definitely serious on her part. She had him on wanted posters, and now he seems to be cool with that because she doesn't kill him for failing her. If "not striking me dead" is your bar, you need to raise it. I can't even imagine what their answers would be if you asked them what they saw in each other. There's nothing wrong with getting into a relationship because you think the other person is hot and a good kisser, but I need a bit more than that if you're going to be breaking up a legendary canon pairing and acting like I should be at all sad that a woman is reunited with her husband and son. Regina lost the guy she's been making out with for a couple of days. Boo frickin' hoo.

 

It doesn't help that this Robin is coming across kind of bland. The actor has a certain wry charm so that I think he could pull off a real Robin Hood, but he's not being written that way. When I think of Robin Hood, I think of a certain bravado and flair, with a dash of cunning and a lot of wit. This character is more like Kevin Costner or Russel Crowe's versions than Erroll Flynn, the Disney fox or even the Cary Elwes Men in Tights version (which was good enough I wished we could have had him playing the character in a non-spoof version). The man who's a match for Regina needs to be a little more more. We need a good drama king who can raise his voice and have a hot temper to match hers, like maybe a Clark Gable's Rhett Butler to her Scarlett. Not to an abusive level, but someone who'll stand up to her and call her out on her crap. I think the idea of Robin Hood could have potentially worked here (well, aside from the Marian issue) since standing up to an unjust ruler is what he was all about, but this version isn't doing it.

[YaddaYadda]

The man who's a match for Regina needs to be a little more more.

 

I so agree with this.  I find this version of Robin to be a bit of a wet rag to be honest and no match for Regina and the type of personality she has.  I would have liked to see Robin react to a Regina behaving badly, not being this sudden light magic maker and how he would have been able to handle that.  (I also find that the actor lacks some oomph, charisma).

 

Even Belle is somewhat able to talk Rumple out of the crazy at times.

 

Hook let's Emma take the lead but he's never shy about telling her that she's making a mistake or just throwing some truths at her to chew on (Emma is not evil, so that's probably helps too). 

Edited June 6, 2014 by YaddaYadda

[retrograde]

I wish I could 'like' your post more than once, Shanna Marie.

 

I too need to understand the attraction between two romantically linked characters -- even if I don't dig it -- especially if their relationship is more than just sex. I need to be able to imagine them in passport scenes having actual conversations (OT sidenote: this is why I will never be on board with Oliver/Felicity on Arrow; can you even imagine them having a non-work conversation?), and to get there, I actually need to see them falling for each other, see what they like about the other person. 

 

And as you say, I think they could have done this with Regina/Robin (although I've never really been able to imagine why he would be into her other than her being attractive, but then, he is so lacking in personality, that is probably a moot point) -- I don't think the problem is the actor or the idea or even the chemistry between the two, per se. It's just the lack of plot and character development.

 

When she asked him, "What do you even see in me?" I thought THANK GOD, FINALLY. But then, of course, he gave a total non-answer, which pretty much summed up this whole plot. 

[Souris]

The discussion of the Marian/Regina/Robin thing in the spoiler thread got me started thinking, and I have to say that I just don't get the Outlaw Queen deal, whether or not she executed his wife. I don't understand what it is they like about each other, which is something I need to care about a relationship. ...

I don't get any of that from either Robin or Regina. We saw him checking out her ass, and she went for it because of the fairy dust/tattoo thing, and they like kissing each other, but what do they see in each other? ... There's nothing wrong with getting into a relationship because you think the other person is hot and a good kisser, but I need a bit more than that if you're going to be breaking up a legendary canon pairing and acting like I should be at all sad that a woman is reunited with her husband and son. Regina lost the guy she's been making out with for a couple of days. Boo frickin' hoo.

 

ITA. If you're gonna break up a legendary OTP, it needs to really spark. Even though I have a lifetime of thinking of Robin/Marian as True Loves and I loved Jennifer Roberson's book about them, Lady of the Forest, I think I could've been interested in Regina/Robin if done right. But as is, I simply don't care about Outlaw Queen. I don't feel like they earned it. It was rushed, like, "Here, Regina, here's your guy on a silver platter." I agree with you, I don't understand what they see in each other, beyond the fact that each thinks the other is hot. I just can't grasp why Robin Hood, of all people, would fall for the Evil Queen, given, as you say, his most defining character trait is rebelling against an unjust ruler. And rulers don't get much more unjust than Regina. So it definitely undermines his character.

 

I don't know why they picked Robin Hood instead of going with a fairy-tale character who doesn't come with OTP baggage.

 

I like Sean Maguire very much personally, but I find it hard to judge his acting because of the rather wan way Robin has been written.

[daxx]

 

I like Sean Maguire very much personally, but I find it hard to judge his acting because of the rather wan way Robin has been written.

Yes, I love Sean, he is wonderful and fun on twitter! I wanted to like his Robin Hood, I wanted to love Outlaw Queen, I just, don't. Too fast, no buildup, no reason really.

[KingOfHearts]

I never understood how these two worked, either. Before 3B even started, I did not see what Robin could even offer Regina, and vice versa. Sure it's ironic that the evil queen and a thief are lovers, but it doesn't work without an underlying foundation. Outlaw Queen disliked each other in the Enchanted Forest, but got immediately bit by cupid in Storybrooke? The writers love contrast, but its anything but organic.

 

We're led to believe this relationship is a big deal because of the pixie dust declaring them True Love, but the reasoning isn't there. The actors have chemistry, and they're both great, but there was no lead to it story-wise. Maybe if they knew each other as children, or something familial like that. At this point, I really don't get it. All the other ships in the show have a good basis, but Outlaw Queen seems to lack that.

 

For the record, it would have been more organic if Regina didn't see the tattoo so soon. From then on, it was forced because of magic.

[Rumsy4]

Agree with all your posts about Outlaw Queen. I find Robin Hood bland, with a questionable moral sense, and no back story to flesh him out. The writers rushed through the set-up of this pixie-dust proven "epic" romance. So, they kissed (and maybe more), and he literally held her heart in his hand, but I don't buy they now have this deep and abiding love for each other or something. I have half an idea that the while pixie-dust thing was done in part to silence rabid SQers, but I could be wrong...

Edited June 6, 2014 by Rumsy4

[KAOS Agent]

One of the things I really like about this show is that it puts the idea of true love and happily ever after to the test. All of the main couples have fought to get to where they are in their relationship. Nothing was handed to them. The Regina/Robin relationship completely bucked that trend and because it came out of nowhere and made zero sense (Robin didn't know why the Evil Queen was evil? Wtf?), I had no reason to think these two belong together other than that the show told me they should. Clearly, Robin was only thinking with his little head because otherwise I should have seen him questioning Regina on her past deeds. I needed to see him work through the idea that he was engaging in a relationship with a very dangerous woman. By showing him say things like she didn't look evil, just bold and audacious, it actually turned me off the couple because it seems like he isn't even aware of who Regina is as a person. Yes, she may have changed from her full on evil ways, but acting as if Robin was unaware of them completely means he doesn't know her at all. Outlaw Queen is all flash (pixie dust is shiny y'all) and no substance. 

 

The other problem is that when one looks at the other main couples featured, one thing stands out - these things took time. Sure, Snow/Charming fell in love during "Snow Falls" but it was a long road to acceptance and being together. Hook/Emma have been doing whatever for two seasons and are just now at the point of acceptance. Rumpel/Belle took the shortest time to fall in love on screen (one episode), but the backstory on that episode covered a significant period of time as well. Their story was also helped because Jane Espenson wrote "Skin Deep" and she's excellent at fitting character development into the showrunners' crazy plot, plot, plot storytelling. I've seen the argument that Regina/Robin happened because they are fairy tale characters who believe in love at first sight, but the truth is that we've not seen that with any of the other major pairings on the show and that's what made their stories so compelling. How did beauty come to love the beast? How did the pirate convince the lost princess to give him a chance? How could Snowing discover a love powerful enough to break any curse? Now I'm sure that the show plans to tell the Outlaw Queen love story, but by starting it up with an unbelievable and contrived pixie dust inspired insta-love, they've failed to give me a reason why I should care.  

[stealinghome]

For me, the issue with Robin is both writing and acting. The writing for Robin, and by extension Outlaw Queen, has been pretty perfunctory and rather rushed even by this show's standards--and it doesn't help that they've stripped Robin Hood of basically all his identifying characteristics (like, oh, hating tyrants who wantonly murder people?)--but Sean Maguire doesn't have much screen presence and he and Lana Parrilla can't generate much consistent chemistry. As others have said, even when they write Robin as having moments where he should come off as standing up to Regina and something of an equal (pulling the arrow on her in 3x13, the "saving your ass" line in 3x19), he just doesn't come off as a strong enough personality to balance Regina's. He seems like a pushover, barely a step above a doormat. And that lack of actorly presence is made worse by the fact that the show has pretty much written him as a doormat, because he's like "murder, rape, destroying an entire world, mind-enslaving everyone? That's cool, bruh, you're hot, let's hit the sheets!" I mean, even Belle isn't that nonchalant about Rumpel's evilness! But still--Tom Ellis had way more screen presence as Robin in like five minutes of screentime in 2x19 than Sean Maguire has had in any three episodes he's been in combined.

 

I have half an idea that the while pixie-dust thing was done in part to silence rabid SQers, but I could be wrong...

Hee. I actually have wondered this myself, but I think ultimately the pixie dust was a contrivance for the writers to fast-track Robin and Regina so that saving Marian in the finale could be "a huge twist" or "earthshaking" for them. As usual, the writers decided on an endpoint that they wanted--the Trials and Tribulations of Our Lady of Woobification--and write a contrived story that makes no sense with regard to character to get us to that endpoint. Like, it's Adam and Eddie. I'm sure their thought process was "well, if we just say they're soulmates, people will have to believe it--because we say all the time that Regina is so redeemed and people totally buy that--so therefore people will invest in them and be bummed by the discovery of Marian!"

 

I really don't know what they were thinking with the Marian twist, though. Are they that deluded that they think a majority of the audience will root for the practically chemistry-free Regina and Robin knowing that Regina killed his wife? (And that's putting aside that Robin/Marian is like one of the most classic OTPs of all time. Honestly, breaking them up would be as bad as breaking up Snow White and Prince Charming.) I just don't understand. So I'm holding out hope that the writers kind of drop Outlaw Queen. And they have left themselves some wiggle room--iirc, the show has been very careful not to ever say that Robin is Regina's True Love. I think Regina has made that assumption, and maybe has said it, but I believe Tink has only ever said "soulmate" and "happy ending," not "True Love" explicitly. So I really, really hope the writers take the out they've left themselves and have Regina's friendship with Robin lead to her true True Love, so there's a roundabout way in which he leads her to her Happy Ending, and she and Robin can be soulmates like Cristina and Meredith on Grey's. (Only not a fraction as awesome, of course.) But alas, I worry that they made Robin and Regina too hot and heavy and ~animally attracted to each other too soon to go back on it now.

Edited June 6, 2014 by stealinghome

[YaddaYadda]

I've seen the argument that Regina/Robin happened because they are fairy tale characters who believe in love at first sight, but the truth is that we've not seen that with any of the other major pairings on the show and that's what made their stories so compelling.

 

I thought about the whole Love at first sight to try and justify R&R to myself, but nope, don't see it.  They didn't even like each other during the lost year.  I think he seemed sort of interested in her in one of the Fairybacks we got, but at this point, I personally think the writers wrote themselves into a corner with this one.  The only reason Regina threw herself completely into this is because of that effin' tattoo. 

 

Jane Espenson needs to writer more shows.

[angelwoody]

Putting aside the Outlaw Queen relationship for a moment, they really need to beef up the character of Robin Hood, just for his own sake.  He should be one of the most dashing, daring and commanding characters on the show not some bland, schmoopey love-interest.  I think the actor could pull it off if they wrote him better, but what they're giving us so far is so underwhelming.  Has he even hit anything with an arrow that he's aimed at in Storybrooke?  His ogling of Regina in Zalena's house came off as more smarmy than charming.  

 

I wonder if he's not being written better because the show already has one lovable rapscallion in Hook and the two would be too similar.  I think Hood and Hook, along with Charming, would make a great threesome of buddies.  

[RadioGirl27]

I really don't know what they were thinking with the Marian twist, though. Are they that deluded that they think a majority of the audience will root for the practically chemistry-free Regina and Robin knowing that Regina killed his wife?

Well, they thought the audience was going to root for Neal/Emma knowing he sent her to jail for his crimes, so I don't think they see the problem there.

[justcris]

I just think that once they decided that Marian was coming back in the finale they realized they need to go with Regina/Robin full steam ahead so the twist would have more impact. So basically they adjusted and accelerated their romance to fit in with the plot twist they wanted to do. Bad writing 101.

[KingOfHearts]

Don't make characters fit the plot, make the plot fit the characters.

 

 The show has been very careful not to ever say that Robin is Regina's True Love. I think Regina has made that assumption, and maybe has said it, but I believe Tink has only ever said "soulmate" and "happy ending," not "True Love" explicitly.

 

I wonder what "soulmate" means on this show magic-wise. So the pixie dust only found someone compatible for Regina? It's kind of weird that they would put so much weight on the dragon tattoo to just revert and say that it wasn't concrete destiny for love. That seems like what they're doing though - Build up Outlaw Queen, then just tear it down. If this doesn't teach Regina a lesson, I have no idea what it was even for besides angst. If Robin was the sole reason Regina went on this "changed into a hero" arc, then she didn't really learn anything. At this point, Outlaw Queen seems pretty unnecessary. 

Edited June 6, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

If this doesn't teach Regina a lesson, I have no idea what it was even for besides angst.

I don't think the writers think as hard as we do about the writing, sadly. "For angst" is probably 100% an acceptable reason for them. I mean, if you think about it, "for angst" is actually a better reason than they seem to have for about a third of the stuff they do!

 

I just think that once they decided that Marian was coming back in the finale they realized they need to go with Regina/Robin full steam ahead so the twist would have more impact. So basically they adjusted and accelerated their romance to fit in with the plot twist they wanted to do. Bad writing 101.

See, I agree that the romance was totally contrived, but I actually suspect they decided first that they wanted to throw a wrench in Outlaw Queen, and then decided they would do so by bringing Marian back. I think they just wanted to get to a point where we once again have Unhappy Regina at the end of the season, and back-engineered the story from there.

 

I wonder if he's not being written better because the show already has one lovable rapscallion in Hook and the two would be too similar.  I think Hood and Hook, along with Charming, would make a great threesome of buddies.

If they were really worried about character type duplication, why are they then bringing on Will Scarlet, who is essentially the exact same character as Hook, next season? I mean, Colin O'D and Michael Socha even kind of look alike! (Which, to be fair, most guys on this show who aren't Josh Dallas or David Anders all look alike.) And they even both have UK accents. Talk about character duplication.

 

I just think that, like Belle, they don't really see Robin as a character in his own right, just as an extension of Regina. Unfortunately, because of this, I think they also have kind of missed that any guy Regina's gonna be with has to have a certain personality edge, and they haven't given it to Robin (and in fact they've made him kind of dumb, bland, and a pushover, which is the exact opposite of what they should be aiming for).

 

Well, they thought the audience was going to root for Neal/Emma knowing he sent her to jail for his crimes, so I don't think they see the problem there.

Heh. This is really true. Just when I think I've lowered my expectations to appropriate levels, I have to remind myself to lower them even more!

Edited June 6, 2014 by stealinghome

[Rumsy4]

Robin Hood seems dull and bland, and even not close to Hook, Charms, or even characters like Dr. Whale, in terms of spiciness or attractiveness. Even Jiminy is an interesting character, despite not being sold as a love-interest for anybody. I don't blame Sean McGuire--it's the writing and lack of proper back-story for Robin. However, outside of our TWoP/Previously Universe, I've seen several people completely sold on OQ (not SQers, obviously--haha), and blaming Emma for destroying Regina's Happy Ending.

 

I do think the writers intend for Elsa and Marian to teach their favorite villains some much needed lessons about consequences. However, considering how biased they are towards Regina and Rumple, it will end up show-casing them in even even more saintly light than before. I bet Regina does something to sacrifice herself to save Roland or something, and Marian realizes the error of her ways and gives her blessing to Robin and Regina before dying. 

[Camera One]

think they just wanted to get to a point where we once again have Unhappy Regina at the end of the season, and back-engineered the story from there.

 

I agree they totally come up with the endings first when they write this show.  There is a slight possibility where they actually already decided before 3B they wanted to end with Emma time-travelling back, and having a "There's no place like home" moment where she realizes she wants to be in Storybrooke (even though they actually did not spend any time developing this DURING 3B, or arguably even during the 2-hour finale).  They probably also decided they wanted to end with an Emma-Hook kiss.  In that case, they might also have come up with Marion popping up at one point or another to throw a wrench into Regina/Robin to set up Regina's next big arc.

[stealinghome]

However, outside of our TWoP/Previously Universe, I've seen several people completely sold on OQ (not SQers, obviously--haha), and blaming Emma for destroying Regina's Happy Ending.

I side-eye a lot of those people, though, because they were already proclaiming that "Outlaw Queen is the best ever!" before Regina and Robin had even shared a single scene together. Like, if you're already devotedly shipping it before the two have appeared on-screen together, you're not actually reacting to what's on-screen at all. The couple could have the worst anti-chemistry in the world (which Parrilla and Maguire don't, gratefully) and they'd still be shipping them hardcore. So.

 

Which is not to say that Outlaw Queen don't have people who like them, obviously, and I don't begrudge anyone liking who they like. Every character/pairing has fans and a following. That's just to say that when I chat with people IRL who watch the show, the reaction to Robin and Regina/Robin has been a decided "meh" from everyone I know.

[KingOfHearts]

However, outside of our TWoP/Previously Universe, I've seen several people completely sold on OQ

 

There is a line of Evil Regals on Facebook a mile long out for Marian's head.

 

I'm going to label OQ as a complete contrivance for plot reasons only. The writers wanted Regina's redemption arc accelerated so she could be the hero against Zelena. A love interest to push down her walls was a quick fix. Then, in the end, bringing Marian back would be an amazing shocking twist of the ages! 

Edited June 6, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Serena]

I side-eye a lot of those people, though, because they were already proclaiming that "Outlaw Queen is the best ever!" before Regina and Robin had even shared a single scene together. Like, if you're already devotedly shipping it before the two have appeared on-screen together, you're not actually reacting to what's on-screen at all. The couple could have the worst anti-chemistry in the world (which Parrilla and Maguire don't, gratefully) and they'd still be shipping them hardcore. So.

 

Which is not to say that Outlaw Queen don't have people who like them, obviously, and I don't begrudge anyone liking who they like. Every character/pairing has fans and a following. That's just to say that when I chat with people IRL who watch the show, the reaction to Robin and Regina/Robin has been a decided "meh" from everyone I know.

Yes, they seem to be mostly Regina fans who really wanted her to have a LI and were predisposed to love any moderately attractive dude who showed an interest in her. But "Regina fans" seem to be the only subset of people A&E listen to, so they probably think the whole world loves them.

[Rumsy4]

 

I side-eye a lot of those people, though, because they were already proclaiming that "Outlaw Queen is the best ever!" before Regina and Robin had even shared a single scene together.

 

A lot of CSers on tumblr were shipping OQ so hard before 3B started. Even I was excited for it until after their "meet-cute" in the Enchanted Forest. Everything went downhill after that. Their supposed "Tallahassee" episode, Witch Hunt, fell flat for me, and there was no recovering it after that. 

[YaddaYadda]

Their supposed "Tallahassee" episode, Witch Hunt, fell flat for me, and there was no recovering it after that.

 

Was it really?  Because that was a pretty poor imitation.

[Serena]

A lot of CSers on tumblr were shipping OQ so hard before 3B started. Even I was excited for it until after their "meet-cute" in the Enchanted Forest. Everything went downhill after that. Their supposed "Tallahassee" episode, Witch Hunt, fell flat for me, and there was no recovering it after that.

Oh yes! And not to be mean, because I'm a CSer as well, but I think lots of them were freaked out by the possibility of "Hooked Queen" so they latched on to OQ as soon as it was announced Regina would have a love interest as a sort of "get Regina out of the way" ship.

[Rumsy4]

Was it really?  Because that was a pretty poor imitation.

 

Yeah--some of the meta writers on tumblr drew up several parallels between the two episodes. I think that in essence captures the problems with the writing in ONCE. The writers are so intent on creating parallels and call-backs, that they let consistency and characterization fall by the wayside all too often. 

Edited June 6, 2014 by Rumsy4

[Shanna Marie]

I think one of the problems is that, for the love interest of a main character, they haven't bothered actually developing Robin as a character. It's like they stopped at "Robin Hood!" They haven't bothered giving him the show's trademark twist (unless giving him a son and having Marian out of the picture was meant to be a twist). We know nothing about his backstory other than that he lost his wife. He appeared in one non-lost-year fairyback, and that wasn't even really about him but was about the Belle/Rumple relationship (and was a different actor). We don't know what they're taking from the legend, other than that he's an outlaw thief. We don't know how he became a thief, why he was living in the woods, what he was stealing and from whom, whether he was stealing to oppose an unjust system, whether he was a nobleman stripped of his lands and title by an evil ruler, whether he was recently returned from the war, or any of the other common elements of the Robin Hood legend.

 

Belle may exist mostly to prop up Rumple, but at least we've seen how she came into Rumple's orbit and we've seen her have some past adventures on her own. We have a decent sense of who she is, where she came from, what she likes/is good at and what she believes. We had huge chunks of Hook's backstory -- how he became "Captain Hook," what his beef with Rumple was, how he got to Neverland, how he met Bae, how he became a pirate -- before he and Emma kissed. We know almost zero about Robin before he popped up to greet our gang when they returned to the Enchanted Forest. He didn't even get a starring role in a missing year flashback, just a little minor snarking with Regina and a conversation with Charming.

 

I think a Robin Hood should be almost like Hook on steroids. Hook may put on the swagger when it might be helpful, but it's starting to look like some of that may be a defensive act because he's pretty solemn and earnest otherwise. Robin Hood should be a saucy trickster type character who enjoys thwarting authority just because it's authority. I keep picturing Errol Flynn striding into the banquet hall with the stag over his shoulders. That kind of "up yours" to royalty. Even the more recent BBC version where they sort of toyed with the idea of him having PTSD (and then mostly forgot about it) had a cheekiness about him.

 

Maybe the fact that they haven't bothered developing Robin at all is a good sign that he only existed to provide Regina with a growth experience, and then he, Marian and Roland will vanish while Regina has to learn to put on her big-girl panties and handle a personal loss without going insane and harming everyone in her path.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Maybe the fact that they haven't bothered developing Robin at all is a good sign that he only existed to provide Regina with a growth experience, and then he, Marian and Roland will vanish while Regina has to learn to put on her big-girl panties and handle a personal loss without going insane and harming everyone in her path.

 

That's by far the best case scenario. Which is unfortunate, because that would mean more potentially interesting characters were wasted.

[Tripp]

I guess I'm in the minority on here, but I love Outlaw Queen. But that doesn't  mean I don't see problems.  I agree they need to beef up Robin Hood.  We rarely get any of his perspective either in the enchanted forest or in Storybrooke.  One thing to help with that is have him interact with people other than Regina.  I did enjoy his very brief conversation with Charming.  

 

Also, I go back and forth on how I feel their fast track of the relationship.  I prefer a slower burn to my couples and I feel like they sped through them so fast so we could get to the point of Marian showing up alive and then we get to watch how Regina "reacts" now that she's been "redeemed".  It is possible the story could work out very well: Regina being tempted to turn to the dark side but through her own newly formed conscious she tries to walk away from Robin . Meanwhile Robin can be shown conflicted but ultimately chooses Regina (but this absolutely requires Robin to be his own character, not a supplement to Regina's).  Oh, and I do look forward to seeing how Henry reacts to this...I expect him to try to lend his shoulder to Regina which would have good angst.

[YaddaYadda]

I hope Henry stays the hell out of grown up business.  Regina is his mother and he loves her, but he has no business butting in.  And I hope he doesn't give his 5 cents worth of opinion when it comes to Emma/Hook or anyone's relationship for that matter.

 

Emma and Regina should just park him in front of the TV with video games and enough food that I don't have to see him or hear him. 

 

Season 1 Henry was fine, but I wanted to murder myself during the last 2 seasons whenever he opened his mouth.

[Serena]

Yeah--some of the meta writers on tumblr drew up several parallels between the two episodes. I think that in essence captures the problems with the writing in ONCE. The writers are so intent on creating parallels and call-backs, that they let consistency and characterization fall by the wayside all too often. 

And considering Tallahassee had a scene with Emma discovering Hook's tattoo, I was shocked - shocked! - that they resisted putting Regina discovering Robin's tattoo in that episode. 

 

I think one of the problems is that, for the love interest of a main character, they haven't bothered actually developing Robin as a character. It's like they stopped at "Robin Hood!" They haven't bothered giving him the show's trademark twist (unless giving him a son and having Marian out of the picture was meant to be a twist). We know nothing about his backstory other than that he lost his wife. He appeared in one non-lost-year fairyback, and that wasn't even really about him but was about the Belle/Rumple relationship (and was a different actor). We don't know what they're taking from the legend, other than that he's an outlaw thief. We don't know how he became a thief, why he was living in the woods, what he was stealing and from whom, whether he was stealing to oppose an unjust system, whether he was a nobleman stripped of his lands and title by an evil ruler, whether he was recently returned from the war, or any of the other common elements of the Robin Hood legend.

 

That's because they don't care. His only role is to look pretty and be a reward for Regina's "good behavior". The few characteristics he had in the show prior to this (hates magic) have totally been erased, even though they would have actually made an interesting obstacle they could have gone through as a couple. Ditto for other "iconic" characteristics (hates tyranny). Add to that, they gave him some truly gag-worthy lines that made him look like a fool ("you're not evil, just bold! you have such a way with children!" basically only hardcore Regina fans who already believed that poppycock bought it) and that cements his status as the male-Belle. 

For all the (justified) accusations of weak and sexist writing that are thrown at Belle, Robin is exactly the same, with genders swapped.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Serena

[KingOfHearts]

I hope Henry stays the hell out of grown up business.  Regina is his mother and he loves her, but he has no business butting in.  And I hope he doesn't give his 5 cents worth of opinion when it comes to Emma/Hook or anyone's relationship for that matter.

 

Emma and Regina should just park him in front of the TV with video games and enough food that I don't have to see him or hear him. 

 

Season 1 Henry was fine, but I wanted to murder myself during the last 2 seasons whenever he opened his mouth.

 

Trying to keep Henry's mouth shut is like trying to cease the wind...

 

He was giving Emma relationship "advice" with Walsh, and he'll probably be Regina's crutch as she deals with losing Robin. That's sadly the way it goes. He meddles into everything.

 

Edited June 6, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

Henry basically arranging a booty call for his mom with Walsh was one of the most cringe-worthy Henry moments in the season. Ugh! Both Emma and Regina come acrooss as far too clingy with Henry (Emma to a much lesser extent). Now that Emma has finally started to let other people in, I hope this pattern changes. As for Regina, I fully expect her to cling to Henry to help cope with her tragic break-up.

I didn't really mind Outlaw Queen until the finale. I was just blah about it. But now, I just can't ship it even passively. Oh well... I know it's going to happen.

I think the fact that the actors for Robin Hood changed between seasons adds to the disconect some of us feel with the character.

[Mari]

To be fair, it wasn't her parents that went back for her or sent her the note. It was Neal and Hook. And I think you have to give them credit for that -- they were very much about Emma having her memories and leaving her be when they returned to the Enchanted Forest.

That being said, I think we're going to see them acting very different towards baby Neal than Emma. The fact that she is an adult with a child of her own and the fact that they never saw her grow up probably makes that relationship more awkward than a typical parent and child.

 

 

 

Except Emma's parents--particularly Snow--seemed to be completely fine with not ever seeing Emma.  I don't give them much credit, simply because it didn't come across to me like they were sacrificing really at all to let Emma have her happiness;  the Dwarves seemed more attached to  frozen yogurt and Miatas.

 

Snow makes one tiny, sad "We're back." In the David episode, it's obvious he has thoughts about Emma--but Snow pretty much shuts down any chance of discussing her, and even David's angst seems to be centered more around self-doubt in his parenting skills.

 

They don't mention Emma.  They don't look sad when they'd see something that reminds them of Emma--like something from the original nursery.  They had people who could hand embroider nightwear for Snow, but apparently no one who could even draw a picture of their daughter for them to keep in their private chambers.

 

They start to bring Emma up again when she's going to be useful.  The curse is cast when they need someone with white magic and think, "Huh!  We could go to Emma!"

 

In some ways, that's worse than what happened with Neal and Hook.  Neal and Hook at least wanted to find Emma because of a genuine attachment to Emma.  It might have had an undertone of selfishness, but it came out of genuine interest and passion for Emma the person.

 

David and Snow just wanted someone to save Baby Redo.  Emma wasn't even a person in their equation.  She was a tool.

[stealinghome]

I think we're giving Hook a little too much credit here. He didn't do a single thing to look for Emma, either, until the "curse coming! Find Emma and give her the memory potion!" note came. And since apparently he could have traded the Jolly Roger for a bean to get back to her at any time, if he'd been motivated enough to, imo he's not coming off much better than Snow and Charming here. He's roughly at Charming's level--obviously thinking about Emma and missing her, but not doing much beyond pining and having manpain (and not being a very nice person in the meantime).

 

For all that I don't generally like Nealfire, he really was the only person to, unprompted, get off his ass and try to find a way back to Emma (and Henry) for no other reason than he missed them.

Edited June 8, 2014 by stealinghome