Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[KingOfHearts]

Outlaw Queen isn't even that compatible, and they're a far cry from soulmates.

 

The very fact they needed to put the whole pixie dust thing in there shows they didn't even trust in themselves to pull off a legitimate romance. Take Captain Swan, for example - I didn't need any Tinkerbell prophecy to tell me they fit together. CS had the pacing and chemistry on their side, while OQ didn't. OQ has a serious handicap that they really shouldn't need if they're a believable couple to begin with.

 

The pixie dust could have been passable if the dragon tattoo was handled better. There is nothing climactic about running from the tattoo then coming back in the next episode. If Regina had, let's say, really got into a deep relationship with Robin without seeing the tattoo, I might have bought their relationship. But since Regina saw it so soon, I have good reasons to believe she doesn't love Robin, but the "tattoo guy". If Robin didn't have the tattoo, there is absolutely no way she would go for him. The only romantic scene they had pre-tattoo-sighting is the farmhouse whiskey scene, and it's not even that sellable.

 

The Missing Year was OQ's saving grace, and the writers totally bypassed it. (Probably for the Marian twist... sigh.) I was rooting for the ship before 3B started, but now I hope another man comes along.

Edited July 27, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Crimson Belle]

Perhaps in the context of Robin and Regina, "soulmates" is a far more appropriate term than true love. Soul mate implies someone with an identical soul. True love implies loving someone greater than anything else imaginable. If Robin stays with the woman who killed his true love because she makes his cajones tingle, then yes, he and Regina are soulmates (or soulless mates in this case). Regina's true love is and always will be Regina.

[KAOS Agent]

I really want the show to explore the relationships between Emma & Henry and everyone else in the context of their different world experiences. Actually look at how the real world differs from the Enchanted Forest and how that affects the interpersonal relationships between those who grew up in different worlds.

 

In the finale they had Emma very wonderfully stating that she doesn't fit into the world of princes and princesses and magic. That's very true and I deeply hope that they explore her feelings of continuing to be a misfit in 4B. What drives me nuts, though, is that it seems like Emma gets a fairy tale princess adventure and is now in the book, so suddenly she's a part of it all. She's really not. I mean, she gained a better understanding of the people around her and their worldview, but it's not going to change her own worldview. Emma is not and never will entirely be a part of their world. And that's part of the tragedy of what Regina did with her curse. Instead of looking at relationship issues where we end up casting blame on individuals because of their own personal issues, why not explore the fundamental disconnect between their two conflicting worldviews? Emma's trip to the past gave her a better understanding about her parents, but Snow/David don't really get Emma. Why not send them out in the real world and see how it goes? If they did it right (something I'm not totally sure the writers are capable of), it would be clear that it's not just Emma who could learn something. 

 

There is the same problem with Henry. Henry, the lonely, friendless boy who didn't fit into the cursed town he was brought into by Regina, went out into the real world where he became just like everyone else his age and made tons of friends. He fit in and everything worked for him. If Henry has to have a storyline why not explore the differences between the real world and the Enchanted Forest by making Henry understand why he was/is a misfit in his own world? While Henry spent a year going to movies and playing Xbox, the other kids in Storybrooke were in Magical Medieval World doing whatever hard chores kids were assigned to help their families survive. Henry has little to nothing in common with them. How does that affect his ability to form friendships with them?

 

In terms of romantic relationships, I have some hope that Emma/Hook might actually delve into the culture clash between worlds. Emma is very much a woman of the modern world while Hook is a fairly old fashioned gentleman out of time even in the Enchanted Forest. What do these people talk about when they're not facing imminent danger? Neither is particularly open about sharing details of their past, but if they did, would either really even understand what the other is talking about? Emma might grasp pirate adventure stories, but would Hook have a clue if Emma talked about hitching her way across the country when she ran away from the foster system? Or if she talked about modern technology and strategies for catching bail jumpers? How do two people who have nothing in common outside of a core understanding of loneliness and despair actually fit together and make it work?

[Camera One]

I like those ideas for Emma/Henry.  The writers will only be interested in writing for Emma/Hook.

[Mari]

I really want the show to explore the relationships between Emma & Henry and everyone else in the context of their different world experiences. Actually look at how the real world differs from the Enchanted Forest and how that affects the interpersonal relationships between those who grew up in different worlds.

 

In the finale they had Emma very wonderfully stating that she doesn't fit into the world of princes and princesses and magic. That's very true and I deeply hope that they explore her feelings of continuing to be a misfit in 4B. What drives me nuts, though, is that it seems like Emma gets a fairy tale princess adventure and is now in the book, so suddenly she's a part of it all. She's really not. I mean, she gained a better understanding of the people around her and their worldview, but it's not going to change her own worldview. Emma is not and never will entirely be a part of their world. And that's part of the tragedy of what Regina did with her curse. Instead of looking at relationship issues where we end up casting blame on individuals because of their own personal issues, why not explore the fundamental disconnect between their two conflicting worldviews? Emma's trip to the past gave her a better understanding about her parents, but Snow/David don't really get Emma. Why not send them out in the real world and see how it goes? If they did it right (something I'm not totally sure the writers are capable of), it would be clear that it's not just Emma who could learn something. 

 

There is the same problem with Henry. Henry, the lonely, friendless boy who didn't fit into the cursed town he was brought into by Regina, went out into the real world where he became just like everyone else his age and made tons of friends. He fit in and everything worked for him. If Henry has to have a storyline why not explore the differences between the real world and the Enchanted Forest by making Henry understand why he was/is a misfit in his own world? While Henry spent a year going to movies and playing Xbox, the other kids in Storybrooke were in Magical Medieval World doing whatever hard chores kids were assigned to help their families survive. Henry has little to nothing in common with them. How does that affect his ability to form friendships with them?

I completely agree with this point.  The problem is, I don't think the show does.

 

Emma has consistently been portrayed as being wrong for not embracing the fairytale world.  She has been criticized--not often, but fairly regularly--for not being fantastical (for lack of a better word) enough.  

 

Henry being Normal Henry was not treated as a good thing, really, and the show was quick and flashy about returning him to normal.  I know a good chunk of that was the Henry/Regina reunification, but was that the only reason?

 

Has there been any real portrayal or condemnation of the characters for not understanding Emma, or how Emma lived until now?  I can't remember any, but that doesn't mean it isn't there. 

 

I'd like to see these addressed, too--I just don't think the show realizes that's an actual story.  They seem to think that the memory downloads most Storybrookers got with the curse means they completely understand what Emma's Normal World life is like.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I'd like to see these addressed, too--I just don't think the show realizes that's an actual story.  They seem to think that the memory downloads most Storybrookers got with the curse means they completely understand what Emma's Normal World life is like.

 

This is why I'd love to see someone besides Hook/Rumple leave Storybrooke and see Emma's world. You could probably get great character moments from Regina, Snow or Charming from that. The show is missing the real world elements that keep it relatable. The main premise is every fairy character you've ever known being sent to our world, and I don't think that has been a real focal point since S1.

 

Snow and Charming would understand where Emma's coming from better, and Regina would learn she doesn't rule the universe.

Edited August 6, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Mari]

Brought over from the Lost Girl thread.

 

No, I think Snow was the right person to hear it, the writers just shouldn't have let it happen without consequences or even basically mentioning it again.  

I think whether or not it was a mistake depends on how you perceive what happened in Snow and Emma's relationship in season 3--not mentioning it again works, if they wanted a dramatic shift in the Snow/Emma relationship.

 

By giving Snow and Emma the Lost Girl discussion, and having Snow declare that it was her job to make Emma not feel like an orphan, it makes the rest of season 3 seem like a conscious decision on Snow's part;  she's changing their relationship.

 

To me, that scene always read as a point in time when Snow was still trying with Emma.  She was still trying to get that Mommy/Daughter relationship that she and Emma were robbed of--it was something they deserved and she was going to fix it, by sheer will if nothing else.  It helps give a dramatic contrast to what happens the rest of the season.

 

About five episodes later--which sounds like a lot, but there's the giant ensemble and the compressed timeline;  it's only a couple of days or hours later, in-story--Snow and Emma have the conversation about Emma and Hook kissing.  Snow completely misreads Emma's concerns--she tries to do the supportive Mom/friend thing, and encourage Emma, but the conversation she's having with Emma isn't quite the conversation Emma's having with Snow.

 

Emma seems to want to talk about Hook, while Snow seems to think Emma wants to talk about Neal.  It's only a few lines, but it's telling--and Snow is smart enough to have figured out that they were "off" there.

 

Right after that, we get the Echo Cave Baby Do-Over speech, followed by Emma's confession to Neal.  Snow had to admit to herself-and everyone else-that her relationship with Emma was never going to be what she wanted.  She wanted to be someone's Mommy, and Emma would never be able to fill that void.  That was followed by confirmation from Emma that Snow had completely misread (justifiably, because Emma's not exactly sharing even on good days) Emma's feelings about Neal;  even the relationship and understanding Snow thought she had with Emma was not as intimate as she thought.

 

After that episode, Snow seems to completely reevaluate her relationship with Emma.  Snow is friendly, but more distant.  When they talk about David's poisoning, Emma is not even an afterthought--Emma's the one that insists they find a way to be together.  At the end of 3A, when the Enchanted Forest pull-back happens, Snow and David both just accept without questioning it;  Emma's the one who tries to argue they should all find a way to be together.

 

In the Enchanted Forest fairybacks, there is one single, solitary moment that could be interpreted as Snow missing Emma.  When the first get back, there's that one little sorrowful "We're back." which most likely was Emma, but could easily have been a number of other things.

 

When Regina is mourning Henry, not a word from Snow, and while the body language showed that Snow probably saw the . . . irony . . . in Snow being the one to comfort Regina, Snow's body language is not particularly sorrowful itself; it seems more wry and disbelieving, to me.

 

In the Tower episode, which actually touches on the Charmings and their parenting, Snow acknowledges Emma's existence one time;  to tell David that what happened with Emma wasn't their fault and to change the subject.  No acknowledgement whatsoever that Emma not being there was painful.

 

In the fairybacks, the first time they really talk about Emma is when they find out they need someone with white magic to defeat Zelena, and save themselves, Regina, and baby Do-Over.  Emma was likeable, trustworthy, and most importantly useful.  She was worth working to be with, now.

 

The whole season--after the Echo Cave--had that general feeling;  Snow liked Emma.  She cared for Emma.  But, the relationship Snow wanted wasn't happening, and so Snow wrote that off, and made Emma into a friend you're glad to see around, but who isn't necessary to your happiness;  her absence is not particularly painful, or even of note, unless you need a favor.

 

I know that that's probably not the story they thought they were telling.  I watched the season finale, too.  And I spit upon the scenes that imply that the problems in the Charmings/Emma relationship was solely due to Emma's walls. In the story they actually told, that was only part of the problem.  The other part of the problem was that Snow wrote Emma off.

[FabulousTater]

In the Enchanted Forest fairybacks, there is one single, solitary moment that could be interpreted as Snow missing Emma.  When the first get back, there's that one little sorrowful "We're back." which most likely was Emma, but could easily have been a number of other things.

For my own amusement I like to pretend that Snow was thinking about Frozen Yogurt and how she just wasn't gonna be able to get her FroYo fix anymore. 

[Shanna Marie]

In the Enchanted Forest fairybacks, there is one single, solitary moment that could be interpreted as Snow missing Emma.

That's where the show's Reginacentrism has sabotaged all other characters. Regina feels such deep pain about everything (and yet has such a resilient heart) that she's allowed to moan and wail and rend her garments about leaving Henry behind, and meanwhile the other characters aren't allowed to have any kind of emotional reaction. It's like the writers actually forgot that Snow and David also left a child behind, and a grandchild, and this is the second time they've been separated from their daughter, and it was Regina who separated them in the first place. The result is that it makes them look like they don't care, and I'm fairly certain that's not what the writers intended. They just forgot to include anyone's pain but Regina's.

[Mari]

The result is that it makes them look like they don't care, and I'm fairly certain that's not what the writers intended. They just forgot to include anyone's pain but Regina's.

I'm actually pretty sure it's not what the writers intended.  I think it's one of the reasons there's often a disconnect between what they spoilers say, and what actually happens--it hasn't occurred to them that if they don't show it--or at least hint at things--it didn't happen.

 

Unfortunately, it's what the writers did.  They probably did just forget to include anyone's pain but Regina.  However, by doing that--and doing it consistently, and repeatedly--it means the story we're left with is a Snow that likes Emma, but doesn't love her.

[KingOfHearts]

 

(and yet has such a resilient heart)

 

I think the fact her heart hasn't exploded from all the hypocrisy and sobbing is what makes it resilient. Haha.

 

 

I'm actually pretty sure it's not what the writers intended.

 

You're probably right, but in the story I could tell they definitely didn't care. Snow and Charming had a new baby, got back to their thrones ASAP, started taking charge of everyone, pepped talk Regina to get over it and never said they missed Emma iirc. If you take in the Echo Cave Speech and how Snowing handled the Going Home sequence, it really didn't appear to be out of character. They don't really want Emma, they just want the Savior to save their butts once in a while.

 

(It's mostly Snow, but Charming usually follows wherever Snow leads.)

Edited August 18, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Dani-Ellie]

Y'know, I don't have a problem with how Snow and Charming sent Emma off in "Going Home." I understand the impulse of the parent to be strong in front of the child. Where I have the issue is the lack of follow-through. Their stoicism in "Going Home" would have had much more of an impact if they'd fallen apart somewhere along the line in "New York City Serenade."

[regularlyleaded]

(emphasis mine):

The result is that it makes them look like they don't care, and I'm fairly certain that's not what the writers intended.

It's rather sad that the best we can say about Snow and David's feelings about Emma is that we're "fairly certain" they care about her outside of just being the useful person that saves them now and then. How sad is it that (most of us) have been watching this show for three seasons, the relationship between Emma and Snow & David is (who am I kidding, it was) one of cornerstones of the show, and yet at this point the best we can say is that we're "fairly certain" Emma's parents care for her.  I don't know about the rest of you, but I feel like that's something we should be certain of. There should be no room for question or argument about how Snow and David feel about their own daughter, and yet rational opposing arguments can be made and that bothers me. (TBH, a part of me hopes that Snow & Charming's mercurial attitude is intentionally written that way, though I just know it's not. I know this because I've been watching this show for three seasons). The writing contradicts itself at every single damn turn and adds ammo to each opposing argument. All we can do is give the characters and writers, evermore, the benefit of the doubt, but frankly, I think I've run out of "benefit of the doubt" to give them. Pfft, oh, what is this show...

 

ETA:

I think the fact her heart hasn't exploded from all the hypocrisy and sobbing is what makes it resilient. Haha.

 

Hehe, that's what makes it a fantasy show -- matter and antimatter coexisting in the same space should result in annihilation. Regina has pure light magic and pure dark magic, so really in "Kansas" she should've exploded into billions of bits and released enough energy to send everyone hurtling back to the Enchanted Forest for good. ...And they lived happily ever after. The End. ;-)

 

(sorry, I couldn't help myself. I'll show myself out now)

Edited August 18, 2014 by regularlyleaded

[FabulousTater]

matter and antimatter coexisting in the same space should result in annihilation. Regina has pure light magic and pure dark magic, so really in "Kansas" she should've exploded into billions of bits and released enough energy to send everyone hurtling back to the Enchanted Forest for good.

I really need this to be how the show ends. It's the only way I'll accept the preposterous notion that Regina, Curser of Worlds, Murderer of Countless Untold, is capable of True Love, Pure Light Magic (stronger than Glinda the Good Witch) and all without a heart!

[KingOfHearts]

 

I really need this to be how the show ends. It's the only way I'll accept the preposterous notion that Regina, Curser of Worlds, Murderer of Countless Untold, is capable of True Love, Pure Light Magic (stronger than Glinda the Good Witch) and all without a heart!

What's the point of being good when you can be evil and still get everything, right? If Regina can TLK and use light magic just as much as Emma, there really is no point to be good or even have a pure heart for that matter. If anything, this show has said evil wins if your name begins with R.

 

In reality, good doesn't reward evil - good fights evil. You can't be both evil and good, they don't just coexist. Everyone may do wrong things from time to time, but the difference between being good or evil is conviction. (Which Regina has none of.) Romantic love for your boyfriend from a week should not be enough to conjure magic stronger than Glinda the Freakin' Good Witch. 

 

Also, if magic comes from feelings, and you can't feel love without your heart... 

Edited August 18, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[FabulousTater]

What's the point of being good when you can be evil and still get everything, right? If Regina can TLK and use light magic just as much as Emma, there really is no point to be good or even have a pure heart for that matter. If anything, this show has said evil wins if your name begins with R.

 

In reality, good doesn't reward evil - good fights evil. You can't be both evil and good, they don't just coexist. Everyone may do wrong things from time to time, but the difference between being good or evil is conviction. (Which Regina has none of.) Romantic love for your boyfriend from a week should not be enough to conjure magic stronger than Glinda the Freakin' Good Witch. 

 

Also, if magic comes from feelings, and you can't feel love without your heart... 

Warning: You have attempted to apply logic and rational reasoning to the writing of Once Upon A Time. Your transgression has been noted and the appropriate authorities have been notified. Please remain where you are while Anti-Reasoning Agents are deployed to your location.

 

Thank you for watching, Once Upon A Time.

[Mari]

Y'know, I don't have a problem with how Snow and Charming sent Emma off in "Going Home." I understand the impulse of the parent to be strong in front of the child. Where I have the issue is the lack of follow-through. Their stoicism in "Going Home" would have had much more of an impact if they'd fallen apart somewhere along the line in "New York City Serenade."

Yes.

 

By itself, their send-off in "Going Home" would have been fine.  What made it a problem is that it was one more event in a series of events that basically have the Charmings saying "Emma's lovely, but not lovable."

 

I'm not sure if the direction is different with Dallas, but even when he's not given much to work with, he does a good job of seeming like he loves Emma--that hug at the end of "New York Serenade" was very emotional. 

 

Goodwin is talented, and usually does a great job with what she's given, but I can't name moments like that for Snow's 3B.

 

Also, please sign me up for the series ending of Regina's glittery ball of matter/antimatter.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Mari

[Shanna Marie]

The writing contradicts itself at every single damn turn and adds ammo to each opposing argument. All we can do is give the characters and writers, evermore, the benefit of the doubt, but frankly, I think I've run out of "benefit of the doubt" to give them.

It's funny, but I'd say that of course Snow and David missed their daughter and were heartbroken that they had to be separated from her again, but then I can't find one single bit of onscreen evidence for that. They probably just expect us to assume that obviously Snow and David love Emma and were sad, and it was more shocking to see that the Evil Queen loved Henry enough to be almost inconsolable about his loss, so they had to show that because it wasn't as obvious. But what was onscreen was Snow and David being all, "Meh, what are ya gonna do?" while Regina is flying into histrionics and ripping out her heart and trying to put herself under the sleeping curse to be awakened when Henry finds her. I guess next to that, even shedding a tear or two would come across as bland. It's times like this when I wish the other characters were allowed to criticize Regina and tell her to get over herself or remind her that what she's going through is exactly what she's done to other people, and how does she like them apples.

 

All we needed was a scene of Snow being all stoic in front of her subjects and Regina, then collapsing in tears into David's arms when they're in private and sobbing about how she can't deal with losing her daughter again.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Y'know, I don't have a problem with how Snow and Charming sent Emma off in "Going Home." I understand the impulse of the parent to be strong in front of the child. Where I have the issue is the lack of follow-through. Their stoicism in "Going Home" would have had much more of an impact if they'd fallen apart somewhere along the line in "New York City Serenade."

While I agree it makes perfect sense for them to act stoic in front of their child, the lack of emotion in the following episode is evidence it wasn't an act. It becomes a pointer to their feelings toward Emma. We'd all like to believe they truly missed Emma and genuinely care for her, but I shouldn't have to fill in those blanks myself. It has to be on screen one way or another, otherwise there's no way to prove it. We've actually been shown some reasons to believe they don't care, as I mentioned a few posts back.

 

This show has a major problem with making assumptions instead of showing actual footage in more areas than one. It's a side effect of speeding things up for PLOT PLOT PLOT. They can give us lip service and say Emma/Snow/Charming have a great relationship, but it's like being lied to because we see otherwise.

Edited August 18, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Mari]

David and/or Snow having trouble connecting to Emma actually makes perfect sense--it actually makes more sense than the three of them feeling happy family very quickly.

 

The Charmings didn't lose a fully grown woman.  They lost a baby, and they had no time to mourn.  They were then presented with a fully grown woman with serious, serious trust issues.  That is not a threesome that's going to immediately gel into a parents/child relationship.

 

So you take a couple that are already hurting, and add in what must feel like Emma rejecting them--because Emma was not ready for the relationship that Snow seemed to be expecting? 

 

It makes emotional sense that Snow would cut her expectations to protect herself.  It makes emotional sense for Snow to make "baby" and "Emma" into two different categories--and "baby" was loved, while Emma was not someone that Snow liked, but didn't love.

 

If it weren't such a natural problem for them to have, the season 3 episodes would be a lot easier to overlook or explain away.

[KingOfHearts]

 

David and/or Snow having trouble connecting to Emma actually makes perfect sense--it actually makes more sense than the three of them feeling happy family very quickly.

 

While this is true, the show has handled it very oddly. One minute Snow wants to stop Emma from feeling like an orphan, and the next she's replacing her. Emma's reason for their tough relationship isn't the circumstances, but because she blames herself for her own walls and "pushing them away". I agree it's organic for Snow to not want Emma as her child, but the show is also trying to sell them as a "happy family" with Regina and Henry in tow when they're not.

 

There's that story problem with keeping Emma relevant too since A) her parents don't need her and B) Regina's the Savior now. She should just marry Hook, move back to New York, split time with Henry between her and Regina, and come visit for Thanksgiving. Snow and Charming really have no good reason to keep Emma around, so I don't know why they feel the need to outside Savior stuff. They did just fine in the Missing Year until Zelena... then in the end they didn't even need Emma.

Edited August 18, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Amerilla]

It's funny, but I'd say that of course Snow and David missed their daughter and were heartbroken that they had to be separated from her again, but then I can't find one single bit of onscreen evidence for that.

 

You could argue the same thing about Emma. Pre-3x12 (and yes, even post "Lost Girl"), she was all about not leaving family behind and not wanting to leave at the finale. She gets a deep drink of life with Henry but without all the familial baggage attached to Henry, and it's all: "I'll keep you from getting eaten by the Big Bad, but then I'm going back to the Big Apple, bitches."  There was a real air that she came back to Storyrbooke out of obligation rather than a need to reconnect with Snowing, and since she didn't have her memory for that entire year, it can't be argued that it was because she thought it though and started realizing their limitations as parents.

 

I just found it just such bogus characterization in service of a badly-told story about finding "there's no place like home."

 

Other than her initial shock, Emma wasn't particularly struggling with the concept of family  after the Curse broke. During the Team Princess interlude, she was very receptive to a relationship with Snow. Snow jumped down the portal after her; David put his own life at risk to get them back - that's a pretty good way to start the family relationship. When they came home, she was happily living in the loft with Snowing and upset when Snow was talking about getting a new place to live until Snow assured her she was just looking for a space where they could all stretch out (and maybe have sex in the afternoons). There was no conflict, no sign that Emma was thinking about anything other than a long-term stay in Storybrooke as a family. At the end of S2 and into S3a, again, Snow and David unhesitatingly risked their lives (in David's care, almost ending his life) to help her find Henry. Other than telling them off when they tried to be a little too "parental" in 3x01, there was never a point where she was reluctant to go to them for advice, even if she didn't end up agreeing with it.

 

So, if Snowing's lack of emotion over leaving Emma felt cold, I would say Emma's reaction to their return was equally inorganic, and driven by the needs of the writers in the moment rather than any consistant depiction of the relationship.

[Dani-Ellie]

While I agree it makes perfect sense for them to act stoic in front of their child, the lack of emotion in the following episode is evidence it wasn't an act.

 

I hear ya. Upon everyone's return to the Enchanted Forest, we had four parents who had lost children, supposedly forever: Regina, Snow, Charming, and Neal. Only one of those parents was written as grieving. Only one of those parents had two episodes in which her fairyback centered upon her grief at losing her child. The other three parents didn't get as much as a five-second onscreen bout of tears. And one of those parents was written as having to buck up the one parent who was grieving when she herself had lost her child twice, the first time at the grieving parent's hand! Like seriously, F you, show. That's a major, major problem to me.

 

Not allowing the other three parents to grieve completely obliterates the emotional impact the story was supposed to have. Focusing all the attention on Regina and Regina's pain gives us ... this, where we can point to pieces of televised evidence where Snow and Charming don't give their baby girl -- whom they'd lost twice -- a second thought. We're left wondering where their heads are at, and yes, logically, they should miss her and be pissed at the injustice, but we don't see that. And it only fuels the criticism that the writers think Regina's story is the only one that matters, because taking what we've seen onscreen, it is.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[stealinghome]

Yeah, I was going to say that I actually think Emma's "walls" are not consistent; they appear when the writers want them to and disappear when they don't.

Part of the problem is that they tried to give Emma this season the emotional arc that she really ought to have had last season. But that makes it seem very out of place when last season she was basically over the weird family stuff by the season's halfway point.

[KAOS Agent]

 

How sad is it that (most of us) have been watching this show for three seasons, the relationship between Emma and Snow & David is (who am I kidding, it was) one of cornerstones of the show, and yet at this point the best we can say is that we're "fairly certain" Emma's parents care for her.

 

Considering the best anyone could come up with when I asked if there was ever a time in the show where either Snow or David said "I love you" to Emma was a passive use of Snow saying to the larger group that she loved Emma in Echo Cave immediately followed by "but it's not what I wanted", the show has done a very piss poor job of making clear to the audience that yes, these parents love their child.

 

 

Other than her initial shock, Emma wasn't particularly struggling with the concept of family  after the Curse broke. During the Team Princess interlude, she was very receptive to a relationship with Snow...There was no conflict, no sign that Emma was thinking about anything other than a long-term stay in Storybrooke as a family.

 

But there was a very clear difference in the way Emma saw the relationship and the way Snowing viewed the relationship. For Emma, who'd never had a family. living together and being friends and being able to trust these people was great and she was good with that. She didn't need or want heavy emotions and a deeper connection to be content with the relationship. Snow seemed more like she desperately wanted/needed that connection because that's what family means to her and Emma wasn't really capable of providing that. Then you had Snowing planning to leave Storybrooke regardless of Emma's decision of whether to stay or go, so the idea that Emma was planning on staying as a family in Storybrooke doesn't matter because Snowing was off to the Enchanted Forest. And even worse, one of reasons stated onscreen for their return was so they could have adventures together. Because abandoning your daughter again to have adventures is so much better than developing a relationship with her. If there was so much love for their daughter, there should have at least been serious angsting about the decision to return home. That there wasn't gives more evidence that Snowing really don't care all that much about Emma.

Edited August 19, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[Rumsy4]

Well, even if they did not show Neal grieving over Henry's loss, they showed that he was pretty desperate enough to get back to the Real World. Snow and Charming were pretty discouraging to both Neal and Regina about grieving/being proactive. They had written Emma off, either because they truly believed she was happier, or because they didn't think it was possible to get back. That is, until they needed her again.

 

I think we are supposed to assume Snow and Charming love Emma deeply, but it's not written that way. In addition to the points mentioned in this thread, when David told Snow he had doubts about being a good father as they had already lost one child, Snow's first reaction was a defensive "It wasn't our fault!" At this point, a True Love's kiss between Snowing and Emma would be as unbelievable as the the heartless True Love's kiss that Regina gave Henry. 

 

The Season 2 plot where David and Snow were thinking of going back to the Enchanted Forest even if Emma would not want to go back with them, was horrible, but it fit with them being willing to stay back in Neverland. What were the writers thinking??

[Jean]

Well Neal's desperation was an expedient plot point to kill him off. Otherwise he'd probably be picking berries with Belle offscreen.

I don't necessarily have a problem with an estranged relationship between Emma and Charmings. It's kind of realistic. That wound is never going to heal. Even if Emma was a happy well-adjusted Miss Congeniality and the Charmings were in their 50s, they will never have that normal parent child bond. But I don't think A&E sees it that way. In their view everything is probably sunshine and roses, except for when Emma's being a cold bitch. The Charmings are still perfect with their halved hearts.

The biggest problem I have with them is that they're not honest about what they've written and put onscreen. They keep insisting the sky is pink when on tv it's clearly freaking blue. And it's not just with Charmings/Emma, it's with everything. Every character, every relationship, every plot point. It's all dishonest or delusional. They can go sell their LSD laced kool-aid somewhere else.

[KingOfHearts]

Replying in Emma thread.

Edited August 19, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

Eh, it cuts both ways. Emma apparently didn't give two shits that Charming was dying on Neverland. Literally, her only response to it was "well, as long as he didn't distract from the mission!" But I no more believe Emma didn't care at all than I do that the Charmings don't love Emma.

[regularlyleaded]

Eh, it cuts both ways. Emma apparently didn't give two shits that Charming was dying on Neverland. Literally, her only response to it was "well, as long as he didn't distract from the mission!"

Hehe, this is an old argument from TWoP, but Snow didn't really care either and she's Charming's honest to goodness, here's your certificate, True Love. Snow was only mad at Charming for lying to her. She wasn't like "Ohh, noes! You were dying, hubby!" No, Snow's reaction was "Bitch, you lied!" IMO, since both Snow and Emma didn't really react to Charming's news (mostly because Charming was already cured by the time they both found out so to both of them the death that never happened was a non-issue), I think using that argument is a wash.

 

IMO, I think the main take away from most of this recent discussion isn't to cast shade on Snowing (or Emma), so much as it is about the following:

The biggest problem I have with them is that they're not honest about what they've written and put onscreen. They keep insisting the sky is pink when on tv it's clearly freaking blue. And it's not just with Charmings/Emma, it's with everything. Every character, every relationship, every plot point. It's all dishonest or delusional.

The shoddy writing has created these holes in the story where we can easily debate, 'til the end of time (and to the end of TWoP :(( ),  about what the character's motivations and feelings are because the show is contradictory and clear as mud at best.

Edited August 19, 2014 by regularlyleaded

[KAOS Agent]

 

Emma apparently didn't give two shits that Charming was dying on Neverland. Literally, her only response to it was "well, as long as he didn't distract from the mission!" But I no more believe Emma didn't care at all than I do that the Charmings don't love Emma.

 

At the time Emma found out about it, it was already over, so other than a glad you're not dead, I'm not sure what she was supposed to do. At that point, a full grown adult who had expressed that he didn't want to distract from the mission was fine, while her 11 year old son was still in the clutches of an evil Pan. Priorities, Emma has them. Emma had also just been told the pirate was in love with her, her mother didn't find their relationship fulfilling and had told her ex she wished him dead, so her takeaway from David's confession as I almost died but I'm fine now is pretty low on the things to worry about compared to the other things going on. I would also note that Emma was the one who went around and found a way to get David home, while he and Snow were instead picking out the perfect tree to build their house in. Emma's actions showed she cared, while Snowing's actions pretty much wrote Emma off. At least show some fight, people.

 

It's this kind of writing that makes it all crap because a character's inaction is just as relevant as a character's actions, but I don't think the writers see it this way. I also don't think there is a single writer who understands or champions the Charmings/Emma complex relationship, so it just becomes a mishmash of whatever is needed to get to a certain plot point. For example, I don't think they see Snow's Echo Cave confession as anything other than a way to make Ginny's pregnancy fit the plot. Otherwise, they would have bothered to have Snow & Emma discuss it at some point and instead it was completely ignored.

[Shanna Marie]

Bringing this over from the "And Straight on 'Til Morning" thread:

despite the fact that everyone in Neverland accuses him of only coming for Emma and he never corrects them. But I guess he didn't really want to tell them the story -- Emma asks twice and he brushes her off.

There's so much talk about Emma's walls, but Hook has his own walls and has a bad habit of brushing people off or freezing them out when they try to get close to him.

 

Emma's walls are thick and built of stone, and they're so established that they're covered in moss and thorny vines. The way to get past them is to start undoing the years of neglect and tend to them -- clear away the vines to find the gate, then wait patiently and show that you're not going anywhere, and then the gate may start to open.

 

Hook's walls look like a bedsheet hung up as a movie screen on which he plays the highlight reel of his life the way he wants others to see it on a constant loop. That alone works pretty well to keep people away, but if anyone does try to get closer, they'll find that one of those security systems made of criss-crossing laser beams is set up in front of the screen, and if a beam is broken, a force field immediately comes up, blocking all access. Getting past his walls involves playing it like a caper heist movie, with the powder from a compact blown on the beams and ninja/gymnastics ability to work around the beams to get to the screen and pull it aside. Then if you're lucky he might reveal something or he might just wrap the screen around himself and turn his back.

 

His story to Bae about his childhood and his awkward attempt at consoling/counseling Emma after she saw her mother presumably die are about the only times he's really voluntarily revealed much about himself. Even his talk to Henry about Henry's father was more about tying knots and things he taught Bae than about anything truly personal. Every time Emma has tried asking him a question about himself, he's shut her down, frozen her out or changed the subject, until right at the very end when he finally told her how he got to this world.

 

So that could be an issue with them going forward. They keep talking about Emma's walls, but he knows far more about her than she knows about him, and it's actually easier to get personal info out of her than out of him. He wears his heart on his sleeve and is really open about his emotions, but he doesn't share himself at all, and Emma may get frustrated with that.

[RadioGirl27]

You are right Shanna Marie, Hook has his walls too and I hope the show deals with them. Probably, when Emma finally lets him in, his walls would be an issue. That way A&E would create another season of angst.

[retrograde]

Yeah, I think I've said before that their walls are kind of the opposite of each other's: Hook is very upfront about his feelings for Emma, but he usually refuses to discuss his past (in addition to not telling Emma much about Bae, he brushes off her questions about Milah and Charming's questions about his brother). Emma is pretty open in talking (by her standards) about her shitty things that have happened to her in the past -- especially to Hook -- but she refuses to talk about her feelings for him or usually even his feelings for her. 

[FurryFury]

So, we were advised to continue the Swan Queen discussion in this thread (which is OK, because I was kinda feeling bad for the extended off-topic). Still, I'd like to add my 2 cents:

 

don't understand the idea of creating a ship out of thin air and then deciding to be furious at the writers and actors for not acknowledging/ supporting something that does not exist.  It is just completely baffling to me.

 

I did ship a few non-canon ships - sometimes, pretty seriously (by which I mean being angry the pairing never became canon, although I'd never even think to attack someone about that), sometime not. It never came out of thin air, at least I think so - sometime there is an actual reason, and a non-canon pairing could have been great. Basically, for me, it's just another storyline with potential that never came to be, and yes, I reserve the right to be mad that the writers didn't choose to go there, because I think it could have enriched the viewing experience (which is the key). I do, however, strongly believe that sexuality is a big part of any character's identity, and most of the time, especially with adult characters, it's not nearly as fluid as some fans would like to believe. So I consider slash ships between heterosexual characters a no-no, because it is OOC. With both Emma and Regina, we had a few confirmed het relationships in the past/present, and zero hints they swung the other way, so I considered them straight - andI don't feel I should defend myself, no matter what some say about assumptions of sexuality.

 

And there were plenty of vocal CS shippers on TWOP long before that ship became in any way canon. The space between what we do and what rabid SQ-ers do is not the Grand Canyon.

Come on, CS was obvious ever since "Tallahassee". I didn't ship it then (and I don't really ship it now), but it Hook was definitely teased as Emma's love interest, and the potential was there. It's very different from SQ, because the writers intended for the former to become a thing.

[sharky]

Sorry, that was my advising. I just saw the new post icon light up next to the media thread thinking there was going to be more about Colin's Ice Bucket Challenge or the DVD release -- and you all tricked me! [end sarcasm]

 

I honestly thought there may be something to Captain Swan, but never really shipped them until their kiss in Neverland. So I have no problem with people shipping couples that aren't canon yet or that we've only potentially seen teeny tiny hints of. I mean, I first learned what fanfiction was because I wanted Mulder and Scully to get together on the X-Files so I get it, I've been there.

 

I'm a big fan of fandom. I write fanfiction, I enjoy scouring tumblr for gifs and photo manipulations and whatever else. I think it's great that fans have that kind of outlet. But fans also need to leave it there in the fandom and don't start dragging it into the actual world of the cast and crew. I cringe hearing about fanfic writers who try to give their work to actors or writers or producers of the show they love. And I cringe when those same actors have to defend the decisions of their characters to the fans -- and the decisions of fans to the general public. There's a video somewhere that I could only sort of watch of a Q&A session with Benedict Cumberbatch and Martin Freeman in which the moderator egged them on to read some Sherlock slash fic she procured from the internet. It was uncomfortable and embarrassing for all involved. Now imagine Jennifer and Lana being put in the same position with Swan Queen fanfic. The results would be just as disastrous.

 

So why attack them on their Twitter feeds and Facebook pages over and over again? I give Jennifer much credit for being engaging about it, but if you don't have a general grasp on how a TV show works or how publicity works, don't attack her for not responding to the results of a cheesy online poll about a 'ship that everyone involved in the show has politely said is not going to happen. And don't attack her 15 minutes after that poll has been posted. I'm sure she had better things to do like, you know, WORK or LIFE or something than to constantly monitor the Internet's Love/Hate Index of her every damn second of the day.

 

Ugh, Internet. Why are you such an embarrassment.

Edited August 21, 2014 by sharky

[Shanna Marie]

From the media thread:

And RumBelle fans probably only can sit back somewhat relaxed, because Milah is no real threat, she has no fans, and the creepiness factor of the pairing itself is mostly ignored due to Beauty and the Beast idealization.

I wouldn't say the creepiness is totally ignored. There may be the rabid fans of the pairing, but I know I've expressed a lot of dismay about this relationship because of the fact that it started when she was his captive slave, being kept in a dungeon and essentially being used as a hostage to ensure the safety of her community; because she's seen him kill and torture people and enjoy it but insists that he's really good and has shown no real problem with the fact that he's done all that; and because he murdered his previous wife for leaving him and, again, she has shown no concern or dismay about this and he's expressed none of the remorse that might indicate he knows he was wrong and would never do it again.

 

But that's another issue -- chemistry is in the eye of the beholder, but it seems like there's often an element of "wrongness" in the relationships that are defined as having chemistry and that get some of the more vocal online fanbases (and not just in this show). A couple with the kind of relationship that would be relatively healthy in the real world is usually said to have no chemistry and to be boring. The couples said to have "chemistry" tend to be those filled with a lot of hate or twistedness, and so very often, hatred is seen as a sign of sexual tension, regardless of the cause or reason for the hatred. And that's where my issue with the very concept of Emma and Regina is, that all I ever saw of them in the first season was hatred. Regina despised Emma from the very depths of her being and from the moment of her birth and saw her as a threat to everything she held dear. That's not a foundation for a romantic relationship I find at all interesting. After the first season, I have trouble seeing anything that could even be interpreted as any kind of sparks, intentional or otherwise. It's just so not there that I can't imagine attacking the actors for not portraying it or attacking the writers for mishandling a relationship. They were written as enemies and now as somewhat reluctant allies, and if anything, Emma is way too friendly and comfortable with Regina, considering their past. Maybe I should start going after them for mishandling that. "Hey, why isn't Emma more mad at Regina after watching her try to burn her mother at the stake? You really sold me on this enemy thing with both subtext and text, but here she is being all friendly and trying to introduce Marian to her. What's up with that? You misled me!"

[FurryFury]

I think the Internet, and especially social networking, is a big factor as to why people feel entitled to their preferences becoming canon. Thing is, more and more shows actually do follow the preferences of many vocal fans when it comes to shipping, so it's somewhat understandable that other shippers become so discontent. Maybe if the pandering was kept to a minimum it wouldn't have come to this. Regardless, I wish that people wouldn't be this mean in general, but it would never happen, both on Internet and IRL.

 

There's a video somewhere that I could only sort of watch of a Q&A session with Benedict Cumberbatch and Martin Freeman in which the moderator egged them on to read some Sherlock slash fic she procured from the internet. It was uncomfortable and embarrassing for all involved. Now imagine Jennifer and Lana being put in the same position with Swan Queen fanfic. The results would be just as disastrous.

 

I think Teen Wolf cast had the same happen to them. And then some fans were outraged because the cast didn't react to it the way these fans wanted. And, like OUAT, this is a show without any overt queerbating (unlike Sherlock (from what I've heard) or, say, Supernatural).

 

it seems like there's often an element of "wrongness" in the relationships that are defined as having chemistry and that get some of the more vocal online fanbases (and not just in this show).

 

I guess it all comes down to people having different kinks and wanting representation. And a good girl redeeming a bad guy is a very, very old trope. Stands to reason there's lots of fans. Still creepy, if you ask me.

Edited August 21, 2014 by FurryFury

[sharky]

 

I think Teen Wolf cast had the same happen to them. And then some fans were outraged because the cast didn't react to it the way these fans wanted. And, like OUAT, this is a show without any overt queerbating (unlike Sherlock (from what I've heard) or, say, Supernatural).

I can see some of the issue with queerbaiting with Sherlock and Watson, but it's more of other character's misconceptions of Sherlock and Watson than actual things between their characters. There's definitely a bit of "So you guys are a couple?" when they really truly are just roommates.

 

Not to bring the X-Files up again, but there was a vocal shipper faction in that fandom and the creator of the show did bait us. Regularly. Seriously, there was a movie -- a big Hollywood blockbuster movie on a big screen -- that came out between seasons five and six in which they almost kiss. And then we got two more seasons of NOTHING between them. Then Mulder gets abducted by aliens for the last two seasons of the show. Then Scully is randomly pregnant. Then with three episodes left IN THE SERIES, we find out that Mulder kissed Scully and is the father of her child. And then several YEARS after the finale, we get a crappy movie that finally establishes that they are a couple.

 

But this crazy show... You know you're watching a fantasy drama when a relationship between Captain Hook and the daughter of Prince Charming and Snow White is the most normal original canon or non-canon couple in that universe.

[KingOfHearts]

These are just people looking for attention. And they got it!

One thing I like about Once is that for the most part it doesn't try to stir up controversy, except maybe season-end twists like Marian to keep people talking. But that's something within the show. It doesn't involve the actors or crew that make it or anything in real life.

Politicizing something on the show that doesn't even exist and harassing innocent people over it is a very long stretch away from constructive criticism or shipping. They can believe what they want, and I can believe what I want, but attacking another human over a disagreement is never ok.

Edited August 21, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[FurryFury]

Not to bring the X-Files up again, but there was a vocal shipper faction in that fandom and the creator of the show did bait us. Regularly. Seriously, there was a movie -- a big Hollywood blockbuster movie on a big screen -- that came out between seasons five and six in which they almost kiss. And then we got two more seasons of NOTHING between them. Then Mulder gets abducted by aliens for the last two seasons of the show. Then Scully is randomly pregnant. Then with three episodes left IN THE SERIES, we find out that Mulder kissed Scully and is the father of her child. And then several YEARS after the finale, we get a crappy movie that finally establishes that they are a couple.

 

I did watch The X-Files, and I did ship Mulder and Scully :) But, actually, even without the social network factor, it definitely was an example of a pairing dictated by fans. I don't think it was for the worse, because the show was way too long and the relationship was way too deep for me or probably many other fans to buy these characters ever connecting with others on the same level, but it still was fan pandering.

 

But this crazy show... You know you're watching a fantasy drama when a relationship between Captain Hook and the daughter of Prince Charming and Snow White is the most normal original canon or non-canon couple in that universe.

 

I don't think it's the most normal non-canon couple. Ruby, for instance, could probably have pretty healthy relationships, considering she's managed to control her transformations, but she never managed to have enough screen time for a canon romance. And Grumpy and Nova could very well get together if the writers cared at all. Hell, even Regina and Daniel may have been  very much happy if Cora didn't kill him!

[Shanna Marie]

I guess it all comes down to people having different kinks and wanting representation.

I guess my kink is that I love relationships in which the two people really like each other, have something in common (even if it's just shared values and ideals), treat each other well and support each other, and talk about underrepresented on TV! TV relationships tend to go more for the "I hate you, I hate you, I want you" or the total opposites who don't get along and bicker constantly until they fall in love. In the rare cases when we do get a canon couple on the screen that seems compatible and actually likes each other, then the fans complain loudly that they're boring and don't have any chemistry, which frequently scuttles the pairing. That's one reason I like this show -- we have Snow and Charming who like each other and care about each other. There was some initial bickering, but deep down inside it turned out they had shared values, and once they got together, they loved and supported each other. And while there's a touch of the good girl/bad boy thing with Hook and Emma, they haven't ever really done the bickering thing and they seem to have a lot in common in their experiences and worldviews. They became friends before anything else started and he turned himself around before the romance, not because she saved him with her love.

 

Not to bring the X-Files up again, but there was a vocal shipper faction in that fandom and the creator of the show did bait us.

You want to talk baiting? During season one, Chris Carter repeatedly swore that he was going to break the TV mold by making Mulder and Scully remain friends and partners and they would never hook up. He was quoted as saying that someone had told him that if they ever kissed, he'd throw his TV out the window, and he was determined to save that man's TV. I actually believed that, and I got to like the idea of TV police-type partners who didn't get romantically involved. And then they pulled that weird bait-and-switch that didn't satisfy anyone. I think they were trying to pander to the increasingly vocal shipper fandom while not entirely betraying any of the people who believed what was said from the start.

[FurryFury]

I guess my kink is that I love relationships in which the two people really like each other, have something in common (even if it's just shared values and ideals), treat each other well and support each other, and talk about underrepresented on TV!

 

I don't think they are underrepresented on TV in general. Maybe underrepresented in shows you like, I dunno.

Personally, I tend to fall for relationships between screwed-up people, but I'm open to variation. Two of four of my OTPs are straight-up romances between rather heroic characters, after all.

 

TV relationships tend to go more for the "I hate you, I hate you, I want you" or the total opposites who don't get along and bicker constantly until they fall in love.

 

That's not true. Belligerent Sexual Tension is a common trope, yes, but it's not as prevalent as you think, IMHO.

 

In the rare cases when we do get a canon couple on the screen that seems compatible and actually likes each other, then the fans complain loudly that they're boring and don't have any chemistry, which frequently scuttles the pairing.

 

Because sometimes, it's true. Happy people make for boring television. Personally, I'd inject some outside influence to break such couples up if it's not an ensemble show, and just move to other romances if it is (like Once did with Snowing), or even sideline them if the show can focus on something other than romance (a great example is Parks and Rec), but for some reason, many showrunners don't get it, thus we get melodramatic break-ups for contrived reasons.

 

And while there's a touch of the good girl/bad boy thing with Hook and Emma, they haven't ever really done the bickering

 

They've done plenty of bickering. I actually loved that about them.

Edited August 21, 2014 by FurryFury

[regularlyleaded]

Hehe, I feel like some of this discussion has moved from being about relationships on the show to the fandom’s relationship with the show ;).(Perhaps, a new topic thread is in order?)
 

I think the Internet, and especially social networking, is a big factor as to why people feel entitled to their preferences becoming canon.

This brings to mind an article I recently read concerning the surveillance era of the internet brought to us by the (unfortunate) advertising model the web was built upon (here’s the link to the article if anyone is interested). The article mentions the rise of exchanging of personal user data for personalization of web services and made a point that I think applies here. Here’s the pertinent quote:

 

“Research suggests that these personalized sites may lead us into echo chambers, filter bubbles, or other forms of ideological isolation that divide us into rival camps that cannot agree on anything, including a set of common facts on which we could build a debate.”
 
(Does that sound familiar to anyone? ;-) The article was speaking more in terms of how we receive the information on the internet and perceive the current events of the world, and how a personalized newsfeed can result in what is essentially, “personalized propaganda”, but I think it strangely applies to entertainment fandoms. I would say all of these rabid fans (please note that I’m talking about the militants here, not all “fans”) from whatever subset of the OUAT fandom we’re talking about (whether it’s rabid Evil Regal, SwanQueen, Hookers, Snowing, SwanFire, CaptainSwan etc. and really any fandom for anything) they all tend to live, eat, and breathe within their own subset of the fandom and constantly feed themselves information produced by other fellow fanatics to the extent that it becomes a self-feeding cycle, and one that results in the creation of an imaginary world that is disconnected from what is actually happening in the show.

These fanatical fandom subsets live within a self-curated social network that tells them that this is the character/“ship” above all others, it’s the ship that is canon/should be canon (or worse think it IS canon because they confuse non-existing or unintentional subtext with reality and facts), and they feed each other self-produced gif sets and “metas” which reinforce their opinions and validates their fanatical point of view. But then suddenly, when the show doesn’t play out the way that they’ve been imagining and deluding themselves with for days, weeks (or even years!) on end, some lose their collective shit. I mean, just imagine someone with a loose hold on reality as it is suddenly confronted with the fact that what was happening in their head (or in the collective fantasy) isn’t what is real or factual. Now imagine hundreds (if not thousands) of those people collectively losing their shit all together and reinforcing each other’s indignation. What you get is what we’re seeing now — the same social networks that allows these groups to create and share these alternative fictional universes provide the means to send hateful and vile messages to actors who have no control over the writing, and to the writers, who yes, while they have control over the story, it’s their story to tell not anyone else’s.

All of this is a bit like watching a psychotic break play out on social networks, and unfortunately the actors tend to be the “innocent bystanders” who take the brunt of it all. It’s just plain crazy. It would be like writing hate mail to Picasso during his Blue Period, because as a lover of the color orange you felt that he was personally insulting you. That’s just NUTS.

And look, I don’t have anything against social networks or being part of a fandom at large. I make use of tumblr and twitter and obviously am a part of the OUAT fandom (posting here makes that an accusation that is hard to deny ;). But I think the danger is when people take the quote “I reject your reality and substitute my own” too far. If people want to fangirl over whatever character or ship they're into and share that with others, I think that’s great. The problem is allowing oneself to become so disconnected from reality that you forget this is fiction, a fiction that you don't own, that these are actors (who are also human beings with feelings and lives) who are paid by someone else to play a fictional role, and they (as well as the writers) are not required to listen to you about anything. You're entitled to free speech, but no one is required to listen.

Edited August 21, 2014 by regularlyleaded

[stealinghome]

I don't see SwanQueen shippers hiding their shipping preference behind real world issues, not even those who eventually sometimes overdo things.

    ...

I would say even, the problem is, that a few people hide their real world issue of disapproval of queer relationships and queer people, and a few even their hate of anything queer, behind arguments of something being non-canonical or immoral because of one of the character's evil deeds. Not on here, I don't have seen that yet, but I have experienced it elsewhere.

I've seen several Swan Queen blogs accuse anyone who doesn't support Swan Queen of being homophobic.

Now, I agree with you that some people hide their homophobia behind a "well, that's not canonical" or "Emma and Regina just aren't gay." But not everyone who doesn't support Swan Queen is homophobic--and it's really, really, really irresponsible to make that accusation.

 

I can see some of the issue with queerbaiting with Sherlock and Watson, but it's more of other character's misconceptions of Sherlock and Watson than actual things between their characters. There's definitely a bit of "So you guys are a couple?" when they really truly are just roommates.

Not to get totally off topic, but having other character consistently assume Sherlock and Watson are a couple is pretty queerbait-y.

[sharky]

True. I guess I met baiting from the characters themselves and baiting from other characters. We don't see Sherlock and Watson necessarily flirting with each other, but we do see others thinking there's something there. Of course, this may require me to do a Sherlock rewatch. Aw shucks.

That's why I get a little confused with the Swan Queen stuff because you don't have either. Emma and Regina don't make flirty comments to each other and there's no outside character that says, "What's up with you two?" or something to that effect. It's obvious that the writers are going in a hetero direction with those characters so why get nasty towards the actors involved? Hell, maybe I'm not entrenched in Twitter, but I'm more offended by everyone going after Jennifer instead of people sending tweets to Colin or Sean asking why they won't say something about Hook or Robin taking Emma away from Regina. Why attack the actresses but not the actors involved?

[Shanna Marie]

They've done plenty of bickering.

It depends on how you define bickering. I tend to think of it as pointless arguing that doesn't go anywhere over the same meaningless issue -- the "you say potato, I say potahto" thing. Quite often seen in cop-type shows with the partners who are total opposites forced to work together but who supposedly have great sexual chemistry based on the fact that they keep sniping at each other over the single character traits the writers have used to define them -- like one of them's by the book, the other is a rogue loose cannon.

 

Emma and Hook disagree about a lot of things, as people do, but their arguments tend to be specific to that situation or moment, like how to deal with a particular thing in Neverland, or are more substantial and actually mean something, like him pressing her to dig into what's behind her constant "New York is awesome and I'm going back" refrain. It's not the same argument over and over again that never goes anywhere because it can't actually be resolved. I like that they challenge each other and are willing to disagree, but it seems like that challenging really goes somewhere because it makes them reevaluate things. That's what happens in a healthy relationship.

[Souris]

Heck, I've seen gay CS fans accused of not being "queer enough" because they don't ship Swan Queen!

[FormerMod-a1]

Hehe, I feel like some of this discussion has moved from being about relationships on the show to the fandom’s relationship with the show ;).(Perhaps, a new topic thread is in order?)

 

Good suggestion!  And while conversation has circled back to Relationships on OUAT, if you'd like to continue to discuss the other, please remember you can create threads on your own.  You don't need to ask a mod to do it.  PM me, or "report" this post if you have further questions.

[ShadowFacts]

 

All of this is a bit like watching a psychotic break play out on social networks, and unfortunately the actors tend to be the “innocent bystanders” who take the brunt of it all. It’s just plain crazy. It would be like writing hate mail to Picasso during his Blue Period, because as a lover of the color orange you felt that he was personally insulting you. That’s just NUTS.

 

You said a mouthful, regularlyleaded.  There is plenty of psychodrama on twitter and tumblr, and I only ever go there following links here to understand what people are talking about in this forum.  I don't think much actual communication takes place in short, choppy bursts on twitter and some of the graphics and gifs make me fear I'm going to have a seizure on tumblr.  What little I have seen seems pretty immature.   I realize I might be missing some weighty and thoughtful things, but I'd rather confine myself to actual written conversations that are found here.  Getting super overwrought over fictional romantic relationships doesn't pull me in.  I like analyzing all of the relationships, probably especially parent-child, and platonic friendships (as I think these can constitute "soulmates") and not get my undies in a bundle about any of it.