S03.E13: Canaries

[catrox14]

 

But see, your saying "pearl clutching" tells me you're not looking at this from Felicity and Diggle's pov at all. T

 

I use "pearl-clutching" because of how it came across as though they have never done anything questionable themselves.  Not because I think Oliver is right. do think Oliver deserves a little more benefit of doubt than what they've shown. I think you are wrong to say I have not considered Felicity and Diggle's viewpoint just because I don't concur with how they dealt with the issue. I could argue that those that are siding with Felicity and Diggle are not considering Oliver's POV they just don't agree with it. 

 

IMO they are all right and all wrong.  Which is why this whole thing is kind of disaster

[thegreathoo]

Ollie and Felicity obviously need a make up session, too much frustration has built up.  Sweat it out!  It's time, before Ray Palmer sweeps her away.

 

I am loving the tender moments in the last few episodes, well acted, well delivered.

 

Laurel as the Black Canary was long overdue, I had enough of Sara.  Although, rubbing it in Sara-shipppers' face was in poor taste by the writers.

 

.

[InsertWordHere]

 Of course Diggle and Felicity are going to react badly.  Of course they're going to be wondering what happened to him and at what point they're going to have to say "No, I won't do that".

 

I don't think it has anything to do with no racing back, and everything to do with what they perceive is a lack of respect on Oliver's part towards them.

I haven't seen Diggle react badly to Oliver's decision at all. I'm sure he does have objections, but he hasn't vocalized them. All we've seen Diggle do is calmly tell Oliver that he was wrong about Laurel's involvement in the mission and give his opinion when Oliver looked to him for advice about Thea. 

[statsgirl]

I use "pearl-clutching" because of how it came across as though they have never done anything questionable themselves.

They've all done questionable things, and been questioned on them by the others. And then they've sat down and talked and worked things out.  Not this stupid season.

 

I think Diggle and Felicity would be willing to talk to Oliver if he just stayed still long enough for them to hash it all out.  But he's too busy making decisions for everyone.

 

I haven't seen Diggle react badly to Oliver's decision at all. I'm sure he does have objections, but he hasn't vocalized them. All we've seen Diggle do is calmly tell Oliver that he was wrong about Laurel's involvement in the mission and give his opinion when Oliver looked to him for advice about Thea. 

I see that as the artificial set-up.  Diggle was very firm when he said that to start working with Malcolm Merlyn is the first step towards becoming him, so he's going to disagree with Oliver's decision..  Why haven't we seen him talk to Oliver about that? Diggle's always been good about telling Oliver what he needs to know.  I presume so to make Felicity the only one who is against Oliver on this? It would hold more weight if it were a partner disagreement than a lovers spat.

 

The show very badly needs to have a conversation between Oliver, Diggle and Felicity, not Oliver off on some damned island.  The last time all three of Team Arrow was on the same page in in 3x09, two months ago.  Far too long for them to be at odds.

[BkWurm1]

If Oliver has another plan afoot that he can't tell them about what else could he tell them?  He said he needed to beat Ra's and that Malcolm was the way to do it. I also think he figured they would trust him to be doing something he felt he had no other choice to do.

 

I think the big problem here is broken trust between Oliver and TA. I don't really understand when that trust was broken but I can only think it's because Oliver died as far as they knew. And there was some kind of resentment towards him for not racing back to TA after he nearly died and was left on a mountain side. Felicity is hurt because Oliver made a choice that he couldn't be with her and I think her level of trust in Oliver dropped because of that hurt.  Then he comes back and makes a unilateral decision without consulting the team.  Even though it took a vote for the team to not make a deal with the same evil-doer that Oliver made a deal with they were still upset with him.

 

And I think Oliver is  taken aback by the lack of trust in his decision here. And he can't understand why they no longer trust him to make those unilateral decisions both good and bad that he's made in the past. But I personally don't think Oliver's decision making as been SO terrible that they shouldn't trust him on this one even though it's with the worst person in the world. 

 

 

To me, I think  they have established enough trust over time as a team that them immediately pearl clutching over Oliver's decision meant the trust was lost before he came back.  But I'm sure we won't concur on this.  JMO :)

I do think that Felicity started losing trust in Oliver before he came back and made his Malcolm announcement but it was the choice about Malcolm that broke her trust for all the reasons mentioned by others, but yes, when Oliver put the kibosh on their relationship 'cause he decided it would make him lose his focus it showed really poor judgment and I don't know how Felicity wouldn't be thinking he's not thinking clearly.  How can she put her trust in such an asinine and ill supported choice?

 

Oliver didn't just shut down a bigger relationship with Felicity, he rejected the personal side to the relationship that they'd created over the prior two years, but that relationship along with Diggle's mentorship (plus other life experiences) is part of what made Oliver grow and become better and wiser.  It's impossible to completely trust that he knows best when he is making such a muck of things between he and Felicity.  He could have said he wasn't ready for something more and they could have gone back in to a holding pattern but he yanked out the rug, rolled it up and shoved it in a closet. 

 

So yes, she was already questioning his judgment but at least she had her complete faith who he was when it came to his principled stands...and then he took that away too.   What does she have left to cling to?  His promise never to leave the city again?  Oops. 

[calliope1975]

As far as the season's shown us, Tatsu told him "only the student can defeat the master" meaning *Maseo*, and Oliver took it as gospel, but perverted it into *Malcolm*. 

 

Did Tatsu or Oliver mention Malcolm in their talks? I would love for Tatsu to come to town, find out Oliver is working with Merlyn, have him say it's because of the whole student/master thing, and have her response be - dude, that...is not what I meant. Then for her to give the rundown on why it's such a stupid idea (Oliver already beat him, Malcolm's afraid of Ra's, etc.)

[Tangerine]

Did Tatsu or Oliver mention Malcolm in their talks? I would love for Tatsu to come to town, find out Oliver is working with Merlyn, have him say it's because of the whole student/master thing, and have her response be - dude, that...is not what I meant. Then for her to give the rundown on why it's such a stupid idea (Oliver already beat him, Malcolm's afraid of Ra's, etc.)

 

 

Hey you know who also trained under Ra's that would've been super helpful? Sara. Oh, wait. *forever bitter*

[BkWurm1]

I had enough of Sara.  Although, rubbing it in Sara-shipppers' face was in poor taste by the writers.

 

What does Sara-shippers refer to?  Normally I think of shipping between a pair.  Was Sara shipping between Sara and the permanent Canary spot on the show or her and Oliver or her and Nyssa or a popular sub genre, her and either Nyssa or Oliver and Felicity?  Or is it just referring to us poor sods that wanted her to stay alive?  :(

[jay741982]

Ollie and Felicity obviously need a make up session, too much frustration has built up.  Sweat it out!  It's time, before Ray Palmer sweeps her away.

 

I am loving the tender moments in the last few episodes, well acted, well delivered.

 

Laurel as the Black Canary was long overdue, I had enough of Sara.  Although, rubbing it in Sara-shipppers' face was in poor taste by the writers.

 

.

Yes Oliver and Felicity need to talk it out big time even though it likely won't happen till later this season cause MG is an ass. Palmer ain't gonna completely sweep Felicity away. We wouldn't have a triangle and he don't have with Felicity what her and Oliver have had. UGH Oliver's a dum dum. Lol

[thegreathoo]

Yes Oliver and Felicity need to talk it out big time even though it likely won't happen till later this season cause MG is an ass. Palmer ain't gonna completely sweep Felicity away. We wouldn't have a triangle and he don't have with Felicity what her and Oliver have had. UGH Oliver's a dum dum. Lol

Ray Palmer gets Felicity, and she gets him, it's a good nerdy match made in heaven.  Plus Ray is a stud.  I am waiting for Palmer to unleash that new warsuit with the new Felicity-made micro chip and join the Cave.  Ollie is a mess, he is un-datable.  I've given up, hes an ultimate tease show that never delivers.  That's one pet peeve of mine in this show, Ollie and his relationships, doomed to fail from the get go.  It's bad fodder.

[jay741982]

Ray Palmer gets Felicity, and she gets him, it's a good nerdy match made in heaven.  Plus Ray is a stud.  I am waiting for Palmer to unleash that new warsuit with the new Felicity-made micro chip and join the Cave.  Ollie is a mess, he is un-datable.  I've given up, hes an ultimate tease show that never delivers.  That's one pet peeve of mine in this show, Ollie and his relationships, doomed to fail from the get go.  It's bad fodder.

Palmer is a creepy guy who the Felicity from seasons 1 and 2 should want nothing to do with . I hate that the Writers make it cool that he pinged her phone among other things and make Felicity prop him he's a fucking newbie and Felicity deserves her own story not propping Ray and Laurel. Ill take Felicity with Barry Cisco or Oliver before Creepy eyes 50 shades

[thegreathoo]

I don't have negative feelings about any of the characters..  That's one thing I like about this show.  I think all the characters are warm, even the villains in their own way, which makes me care about all of them.

[BkWurm1]

I think Palmer got a bad introduction but he isn't supposed to be an evil creepy stalker and apart from the pinging of the phone, I don't think the rest of his characterization fits his intro so I'll give him a pass on his origin.  I gave Oliver one on his habits on just killing everyone, so I figure there's wiggle room.    

Edited February 18, 2015 by BkWurm1

[jay741982]

I don't have negative feelings about any of the characters..  That's one thing I like about this show.  I think all the characters are warm, even the villains in their own way, which makes me care about all of them.

You know what? That's cool that you don't have any negative feelings towards any characters. I just wish they would quit ignoring what made this show awesome to me The action, the Oliver/Felicity/Diggle Trio and some of the fun this show actually had before this season, Olicity not having this much angst and Sara as Canary

[thegreathoo]

I think Palmer got a bad introduction but he isn't supposed to be a evil creepy stalker and apart from the pinging of the phone, I don't think the rest of his characterization fits his intro so I'll give him a pass on his origin.  I gave Oliver one on his habits on just killing everyone, so I figure there's wiggle room.    

 

Yes, I agree.  I understand where the "creepy" label comes from, but I don't think the strong feelings are justified.  Too me, it was creepy cute in a nerdy way, no biggy.  Palmer's been very caring about her.

 

You know what? That's cool that you don't have any negative feelings towards any characters. I just wish they would quit ignoring what made this show awesome to me The action, the Oliver/Felicity/Diggle Trio and some of the fun this show actually had before this season, Olicity not having this much angst and Sara as Canary

 

I like the season so far.  I feel they've stayed exceptionally consistent through the seasons.  Dialogues are simple, effective, and tender, characters are warm, relationships are human, acting, facial expressions, lighting effects, -- it's all been consistent.  I think they've done amazing job,  

To me, the action is fodder.  The action scenes are quick, and I like that.  It's not what drives the story, but it gives it dynamic and pace, some excitement.  

 

Felicity is growing up, growing more independent in a sense.  The main void in the plot after S2 is the lack of side stories in the city.  But, the sory is moving forward, and I am excited about that. 

[BkWurm1]

characters are warm

 

The characters are all one step away from throwing themselves into a hole and never coming out.  This has been the most depressing season ever and the characters the most disconnected I've ever seen them. 

 

I wish I could see the characters as warm. 

[thegreathoo]

the characters are the most disconnected I've ever seen them 

 

I don't feel that way.  They are a tight knit group, they care about each other, they've been through a lot.  There were a lot of nice tender moments this season, Digg/Ollie hug at the maternity ward, Felicity and her mom, Felicity at the dinner with Ray,   There is a void, because a lot characters were wiped out after the MIrakuru apocalypse of season 2,   This season is about picking up the pieces, regrouping, some characters are changing like Laurel, Felicity, and Tia, Ra's is the is the main villain.

[BkWurm1]

For me, it's really hard to remember the good for all the bad. 

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

Too me, it was creepy cute in a nerdy way, no biggy.

There is no such thing as creepy cute. Palmer might have had the best intentions but he performed unacceptable acts which any woman in their right mind should have shut down. He needed to apologize for that shit and show Felicity he isn't really 50 Shades before she considered working for him or dating him.

I blame the 50 Shades books and movies for people accepting this behavior. "He is hot and really cares for her in his own way..." no, it isn't respect and caring starts with respect.

Oliver returned from an island where he was tortured and stopped killing people eventually. He learned and grew. What is Ray 's history that pinging people's phones and showing up at their house is his norm? When does he learn his lesson? When Felicity's break up speech says "the next girl might not be a doormat like I am."

It scares me the behavior women will accept from a hot guy just because he has abs and a smile.

My apologies to whomever will read this and get pissed off. I've been studying the effects the 50 Shades books and movies have on people. They introduce behavior which is at first appalling but soon accepted because *fill in your reasons.*

Edited February 18, 2015 by AnalyzeAndCritique

[newbie]

Your are so right there is absolutely nothing cute about a stalker

Edited February 18, 2015 by newbie

[wonderwall]

Question, because I can't be bothered to look it up...

 

But do Oliver and Thea go to Lian Yu as per Malcolm's instructions or was it Oliver's choice? 

[apinknightmare]

Question, because I can't be bothered to look it up...

 

But do Oliver and Thea go to Lian Yu as per Malcolm's instructions or was it Oliver's choice? 

 

I think Oliver chose to go because Malcolm wanted them to.

[InsertWordHere]

It scares me the behavior women will accept from a hot guy just because he has abs and a smile.

My apologies to whomever will read this and get pissed off. I've been studying the effects the 50 Shades books and movies have on people. They introduce behavior which is at first appalling but soon accepted because *fill in your reasons.*

I'm no fan of Ray or the 50 Shades books, which full disclaimer, I have not read, but this was being presented as okay and even desirable behavior long before 50 Shades was published. Just look at the book series that inspired 50 Shades for one. Controlling, stalkerish tendencies have been seen as acceptable behavior from men and "crazy" behavior from women since probably the dawn of Hollywood and before. I think you're giving 50 Shades way too much credit. They were hardly the first, they are just a more popular example, made memorable because they also threw some badly described kinky sex into the mix.

 

That said, liking behavior in a popular book series is not the same as accepting or desiring that behavior in real life, and I think you are doing a lot of women and the poster you're responding to a disservice by saying they will accept Christian Grey-like behavior from a hot guy just because he has abs and a smile. I think a lot of women are smarter than that, regardless of their choice in reading material or whatever portrayal of a comic book character they enjoy. I also don't think Ray is anywhere near Christian's level and his stalking, even though I dislike it, was portrayed as more eccentric, pushy billionaire than romantic. But I'm one of the people who didn't see much romance in Raylicity until their scene in 3.12, and even then, I don't think we are "supposed to" root for that couple or find him especially drool worthy. We are supposed to see Ray as an Olicity roadblock.

[yellowfred]

So, I've been putting off watching this episode, and now I kind of wish I'd just skipped it.

 

Like, the main takeaway for me was that, if a villain sends you on a drug-induced vision quest, the answer it leads you to is probably going to be stupid.  It seemed kind of like Laurel's subconscious was feeling guilty about the fact that she's secretly really happy that her sister is dead, because it means that she can take her place, and then her solution was to not feel bad about it anymore.  I feel like that whole premise could have worked a lot better if the issue had been more about Laurel's guilt over not telling her father and impersonating her sister in order to trick him.  Then, the solution could have been her telling her father the truth and, maybe, remembering who Sara really was, instead of whoever that was that Laurel's drug-addled subconscious cooked up to help her deal with her guilt. 

 

Also, I feel like enough has probably been said about the "light" comment, so I'll just add that, when she made that comment, I legitimately turned off the show, walked away, and didn't finish the episode for four days.

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

I'm no fan of Ray or the 50 Shades books, which full disclaimer, I have not read, but this was being presented as okay and even desirable behavior long before 50 Shades was published. Just look at the book series that inspired 50 Shades for one. Controlling, stalkerish tendencies have been seen as acceptable behavior from men and "crazy" behavior from women since probably the dawn of Hollywood and before. I think you're giving 50 Shades way too much credit. They were hardly the first, they are just a more popular example, made memorable because they also threw some badly described kinky sex into the mix.

That said, liking behavior in a popular book series is not the same as accepting or desiring that behavior in real life, and I think you are doing a lot of women and the poster you're responding to a disservice by saying they will accept Christian Grey-like behavior from a hot guy just because he has abs and a smile. I think a lot of women are smarter than that, regardless of their choice in reading material or whatever portrayal of a comic book character they enjoy. I also don't think Ray is anywhere near Christian's level and his stalking, even though I dislike it, was portrayed as more eccentric, pushy billionaire than romantic. But I'm one of the people who didn't see much romance in Raylicity until their scene in 3.12, and even then, I don't think we are "supposed to" root for that couple or find him especially drool worthy. We are supposed to see Ray as an Olicity roadblock.

I'm not saying it is new. However, 50 Shades is the hottest example right now. I hate Twilight also. We can keep trying to find the first instance but it isn't the point.

I also wasn't referring to the original poster. It causes me concern the number of women who will give a guy free reign because he is hot and says he cares when his behavior is proof it isn't true. I know women like this. "He is cute/rich/smart/irresistible." usually in the argument is "I never thought I would land a guy like him I am ugly/plain/fat/poor."

Thank you for making one of my points from when this behavior started. It doesn't matter if it is romantic or if we are meant to see it that way. Ray not respecting boundaries whether romantic or not isn't the point. Much like many entertainment choices he didn't respect her and we are expected to respond by saying "he didn't give up, look how much he cares...." whether we are too root for them or not isn't the point. His behavior is only acceptable if Felicity is learning to stand up for herself or its about to be saved by the hero. I will give her a standing ovation if she calls Ray on his shit and chooses herself. Otherwise I'm of the belief she had accepted him because Oliver refused to make himself available.

Edited February 18, 2015 by AnalyzeAndCritique

[statsgirl]

The Ray/Felicity story reminds me of Barbara Cartland and Ethel M. Dell and those old "powerful sheik rides of with virgin" stories from 115 years ago. I thought we'd move past that.

 

I don't feel that way.  They are a tight knit group, they care about each other, they've been through a lot.  There were a lot of nice tender moments this season, Digg/Ollie hug at the maternity ward, Felicity and her mom, Felicity at the dinner with Ray,  

I don't think Felicity and her mother counts because Mama Smoak isn't part of the group.  I didn't like Felicity at dinner with Ray, although not as much as I hate her with Laurel because that's completely unearned on Laurel's part.  Laurle's had one line this whole series (telling Felicity that Oliver is not dead) that's been nice to Felicity.

 

The were a tight knit group, and that lasted till the end of the first episode.  And then it went all to hell.  Oliver and Felicity have been distant since Sara died, and the Team hasn't functioned as a group since episode 3x8, either Oliver isn't there (as he isn't now) or he's arguing with Diggle and Felicity or Laurel is causing discord. 

And as far as I can see from the spoilers, it's still just as bad in 3x20, which carries it on through into April.

 

This is not what I want to see when I watch Arrow.

[catrox14]

Question, because I can't be bothered to look it up...

 

But do Oliver and Thea go to Lian Yu as per Malcolm's instructions or was it Oliver's choice?

 

The dialogue was kind of vague imo

Malcolm : "Ra's al Ghul preys upon the fears of his enemies.

Conquer your own fear, and you eliminate that critical advantage. For you, there is only one place on earth uniquely

suited to doing that."

 

Is Oliver afraid of the Island? I don't think so because he went back to the Island after the Glades fell. And I don't think Oliver is particularly afraid of Slade anymore. I tend to think that conversation was about Thea facing her fears, and one of those is Slade, the man that murdered her mother and was threatening to kill her.

I think Malcolm may have been directing it to Oliver but I'm not sure for Oliver it was about Oliver. Now I think maybe Oliver is going to train Thea to defeat her master, Malcolm., but he's using Malcolm to to do it.

Edited February 18, 2015 by catrox14

[thegreathoo]

There is no such thing as creepy cute. .*

 

Nah, I disagree.  Palmer was obviously hitting on her, he was making repeated advances, that's not stalking.  He did not do anything socially unacceptable, except stealing the company info through her phone, which is what Felicity does all the time.

[InsertWordHere]

I also wasn't referring to the original poster. It causes me concern the number of women who will give a guy free reign because he is hot and says he cares when his behavior is proof it isn't true. I know women like this. "He is cute/rich/smart/irresistible." usually in the argument is "I never thought I would land a guy like him I am ugly/plain/fat/poor."

The original poster shared their opinion on Ray and you responded by saying, "I blame the 50 Shades books and movies for people accepting this behavior." As I have no clue whether or not the OP has read/watched Fifty Shades of Grey or whether the women you reference have read or watched it, that was the basis for my mild disagreement.

 

 Much like many entertainment choices he didn't respect her and we are expected to respond by saying "he didn't give up, look how much he cares...." whether we are too root for them or not isn't the point.

But are we expected to respond that way? By saying it was the only romantic thing I've seen between them doesn't mean that I thought it was romantic, it means the scene had romantic undertones. The romantic hook to me in that episode was Oliver and how he would get back to Felicity. A weak and injured Oliver was dreaming about kissing Felicity in that same episode, so yes, I don't think we were supposed to go "aw" at Ray saying he wanted to protect her or whatever it was he said and think it's oh so romantic and dreamy. The earlier stalking is gross but he wasn't asking Felicity out or declaring his love for her. I think whether or not we are supposed to root for Raylicity is exactly the point. So far, I have seen no evidence that Ray is anything other than a roadblock to Olicity and I don't think we are meant to see him as a fully-fledged love interest any more than we are meant to see him as a fully-fledged CEO or vigilante or any of the other things he is involved in that make him the obvious Oliver-lite that he is. He is not Christian Gray or Edward Cullen. 

 

I will give her a standing ovation if she calls Ray on his shit and chooses herself. Otherwise I'm of the belief she had accepted him because Oliver refused to make himself available.

This is all speculation based on the popular theories of where the Ray/Felicity relationship is going. We have not seen this on the show. She has not accepted him as a romantic partner. They are not together. He has not worn her down with his stalking (well he wore her down in business terms, but not romantic terms). It is very likely these things will happen, and yes, I won't like it, but they have not happened so far on the show. She very well could shut him down and tell him his methods in pursuing her employment and after when he pinged her phone in the club were wrong. This is all speculation.

 

But Ray of all characters isn't really the sword I want to be pushed off a cliff on, and my post was made in respectful disagreement, so I will quietly back out of this discussion now. 

 

ETA:

 

Nah, I disagree.  Palmer was obviously hitting on her, he was making repeated advances, that's not stalking.

I did not see this at all. And no, constant unwanted pursuit is not socially acceptable. Or it shouldn't be, anyway.

Edited February 18, 2015 by InsertWordHere

[apinknightmare]

Nah, I disagree.  Palmer was obviously hitting on her, he was making repeated advances, that's not stalking.  He did not do anything socially unacceptable, except stealing the company info through her phone, which is what Felicity does all the time.

 

What?

 

You wouldn't consider Ray pinging Felicity's phone to find her after she made it clear she didn't want to talk to him socially unacceptable? Felicity does a lot of questionable shit in the name of crimefighting, but she hasn't done a single thing for personal gain, sorry.

[catrox14]

Nah, I disagree.  Palmer was obviously hitting on her, he was making repeated advances, that's not stalking.  He did not do anything socially unacceptable, except stealing the company info through her phone, which is what Felicity does all the time.

 

Felicity steals phones and tracks men she is romantically interested in?  When did that happen?

[BkWurm1]

Nah, I disagree.  Palmer was obviously hitting on her, he was making repeated advances, that's not stalking.  He did not do anything socially unacceptable, except stealing the company info through her phone, which is what Felicity does all the time.

I disagree, he was not hitting on her until after the fight with Brick's men.  Before that was friendly and often eccentric and boundary breaking, but not romantic.  I'll let the others jump on the socially unacceptable bandwagon. 

[quarks]

Nah, I disagree.  Palmer was obviously hitting on her, he was making repeated advances, that's not stalking.  He did not do anything socially unacceptable, except stealing the company info through her phone, which is what Felicity does all the time.

 

Responding over in the minor characters thread.

[millennium]

There was a scene in this episode that felt like Felicity was surrendering her position as alpha female on Team Arrow and passing the torch on to Laurel.   She even said Laurel has "a light inside her" (or something like that).    Felicity's diminished role -- and Laurel's expanded screen-time -- seems to confirm the shift in power.  

 

As Laurel moves into the forefront, perhaps Felicity will take on more of "gal Friday" role, like an office assistant.  Well, not an office assistant exactly because she has mad computer skills, but as someone who pops up to say the right thing at the right moment or solve an immediate crisis via computer.   Like Penelope Garcia.

 

I hope this was the last we see of Vertigo.   Too much like the Scarecrow and too many bites at the apple.   The old guy wasn't menacing and his accent sounded ridiculous.

Edited February 19, 2015 by millennium

[statsgirl]

 

As Laurel moves into the forefront, perhaps Felicity will take on more of "gal Friday" role, like an office assistant.  Well, not an office assistant exactly because she has mad computer skills, but as someone who pops up to say the right thing at the right moment or solve an immediate crisis via computer.   Like Penelope Garcia.

I hope not. I've always disliked how Criminal Minds minimized Garcia for the traditionally pretty female characters.

 

Not to mention, to push Felicity aside in favor of Laurel as lead female would be a show-killer IMO. If Laurel had been popular enough to take the lead female position, there wouldn't have been a need to make Felicity more than recurring.  Marc Guggenheim got a lot of hate tweets for that scene.

[millennium]

Felicity's not the only one pushed aside, IMHO.   Oliver/Arrow has lost his also prominence this season, to the show's detriment.   The team approach was originally an interesting twist on the traditional lone superhero but as they bring more and more people on board the focus on Oliver's crusade is being muddied.   It's starting to feel like The Super Friends. 

[statsgirl]

Very true, millennium.  It was when it became a group endeavor in season 1 that Arrow really hit its stride.  Now Oliver has to fight for space alongside Laurel, Malcolm and Ray, and it took until ep 14 for Thea to finally get a showcase.

 

I think the Arrow cave gets too crowded at more than four people.  Now that Thea knows and Malcolm is always dropping in, there's seven, and if Ray joins it will be eight.  The show is beginning to look like Grey's Anatomy.

[jay741982]

I hope not. I've always disliked how Criminal Minds minimized Garcia for the traditionally pretty female characters.

 

Not to mention, to push Felicity aside in favor of Laurel as lead female would be a show-killer IMO. If Laurel had been popular enough to take the lead female position, there wouldn't have been a need to make Felicity more than recurring.  Marc Guggenheim got a lot of hate tweets for that scene.

MG seems determined to kill what made the show great with his evolving crap. Unlikable Ray and Laurel being Propped like they are so awesome. Ray only having scenes with Felicity. Them using Diggle is a dad as an excuse to put inexperienced Laurel out in the field with Roy and Oliver. Olicity drama. Ray being able to fly with his ridiculous outfit. OG Team Arrow not being close as they were. Ugh I just want Oliver to have some happiness by the end of the season his sister by his side, Felicity as his friend and Girlfriend

[catrox14]

 

The old guy wasn't menacing and his accent sounded ridiculous.

 

 That is the actor's actual accent. 

[millennium]

 That is the actor's actual accent. 

 

LOL, it still strikes me as ridiculous.

[catrox14]

LOL, it still strikes me as ridiculous.

 

Well I'm never going to mock someone's real accent.

[AyChihuahua]

 

Palmer was obviously hitting on her, he was making repeated advances, that's not stalking.

I don't understand this AT ALL.  Repeatedly hitting on someone who is not interested is pretty much the definition of stalking/harassment.  I don't actually think he was hitting on her in the early days, but if you do think that, I hope you don't really think it's okay.

[millennium]

Well I'm never going to mock someone's real accent.

 

I said it sounded ridiculous.  It wasn't mocking.   It was my impression.   Vertigo's supposed to be this evil, intimidating figure but the actor's delivery of the lines, in part due to his accent, severely undermined any sense of menace.

 

FWIW, I can speak French to some degree.   Yet I would not begrudge any native of France for cracking a smile or chuckling at my accent.  

[tennisgurl]

The idea of the show replacing Felicity as the leading lady with Laurel is just so nonsensical. Normally, I worry about a show listening too much to fans and critics, but in this case, they made the right call. Felicity just worked better as a main female character/love interest than Laurel, and it seemed like everyone was happy with that. Laurel worked a lot better as a friend/ally on the traditional side of the law than as a love interest. But now they seem like they are going back, for no reason whatsoever. 

[statsgirl]

I don't mock anyone's accent (I grew up surrounded by them) but Stormare's garbled the words in the opening scene. I've seen it in a number of reviews that people are trying to figure out what he said.  I feel that if you're going to be on a TV show, the audience needs to understand what you're saying. They should have had him dub over that speech.

[kismet]

Rewatched some S2 Arrow with the original Count Vertigo and it made me miss him from this new version. The original one had a crazy not quite well MO which was fun to watch. This newer Count just seems to be too business like. I like a little crazy in some of my villains. I was really not invested in this newer Count. Almost wish they had introduced a newer Count, because I do love having vertigo on the show from time to time for a little introspective high for the characters.

[chaos is welcome]

Finally getting around to watching this episode. I was dreading it, because I have read all the things that this board has written about it. But just wanted to say that the music in the scene where oliver tells his identity to thea was amazingly gorgeous. Loved the entire scene.

Edited March 21, 2015 by chaos is welcome

[kismet]

Finally getting around to watching this episode. I was dreading it, because I have read all the things that this board has written about it. But just wanted to say that the music in the scene where oliver tells his identity to thea was amazingly gorgeous. Loved the entire scene.

Best part of the episode for sure. I would even wager it was the best Oliver-Character conversation in season 3b so far. And Thea's response was such good acting on WH part and showed the depth of her character growth.

[AyChihuahua]

If Oliver has a plan he hasn't told the others about, then he hasn't told the audience about it either... and then it's *me* who won't trust him, because he's deceiving ME in the audience, and I'm not fond of this kind of storytelling. [unless it's Leverage and I've signed up for it.]

As far as the season's shown us, Tatsu told him "only the student can defeat the master" meaning *Maseo*, and Oliver took it as gospel, but perverted it into *Malcolm*. I think the show is telling the audience as well that what Tatsu said is the only way? I'm not sure here, but ultimately I can't buy that Tatsu is right that this is the only possible plan, because just like Oliver, I know Barry can super sonic punch Ra's into oblivion, and that Lyla has access to some seriously powerful weapons that could obliterate Nanda Parbat from existence.

So the only conclusion I can make is that Oliver's decision is dumbass stupid, and that I can't trust his decision making in this matter.

Hee, I'm reading old comments on this apparently absolutely wretched episode, and you used to think Oliver was as dumb as I still think he is!

[dtissagirl]

Hee, I'm reading old comments on this apparently absolutely wretched episode, and you used to think Oliver was as dumb as I still think he is!

Oh, I still think listening to Tatsu and working with Malcolm was a dumbass move. It just doesn't bother me that Oliver makes dumbass decisions like it bothers you. :) Looking at the season as a whole, I accept his dumbness wholeheartedly.

Edited September 2, 2015 by dtissagirl