S03.E13: Canaries

[dtissagirl]

I actually understand the writing mechanism behind it all: this show has previously established that it's the "normal folk" Diggle and Felicity that accept/approve of the heroes. The both of them are the audience's avatars, and if they accept someone in the lair, they're in. So they've done it with Oliver himself, with Sara, with Barry, with Roy. And then they had to do it with Laurel too.

Oliver kind of had the exact same response to Laurel in the lair as he did with Barry -- an annoyance to be squashed at first, until the newbie proved him/herself to Oliver's standards, and then they were accepted. It's not even new story beats being used here with regards to Oliver. Dude has done that before. It's just that Barry was a better constructed character in 2 episodes than Laurel ever was in 58.

What kneecaps the story imo is that they're trying to make Laurel happen on top of making Malcolm happen. It's the attack of terribly constucted characters, which turns the well constructed characters into plot-driven pods. I can't even pick a side here between Oliver vs. Team Arrow, because I can't buy anyone's motivation. Everyone is dumb to me, because the writers devised the most simplistic plan they could come up with: Team Arrow picked Laurel's side, and Oliver picked Malcolm's. And then everyone is mad at each other, and unable to unederstand each other, or listen to each other, because plot contrivance.

Edited February 16, 2015 by dancingnancy

[catrox14]

Roy and Felicity were saying they get a voice too not Your Opinion doesn't matter. Oliver doesn't get to be the only one who makes decisions remember season 2 when they made decisions as a team? Oliver is working with a mass murderer who can easily stab him in the back and could kill him. Who got his sister to murder a former girfriend. So you're saying Felicity should be fine with a man she loves working with a Piece of shit who tried to kill him and will probably do it again. Diggle should be okay with it as well? And FUCK laurel she also was ultimately against too. Same with Roy.

 

I guess I didn't make my viewpoint clear enough that this isn't about what Oliver is doing that bothers me. It's the way the team is reacting to him barely being back a week.  I never said I agree with Oliver's decision but it's the choice he's making and they don't have to agree with him and they can try to convince that he's making a mistake.  But to literally tell him he has no right to question choices is weird and is not really better than him saying it's his decision and the team should go along with cause he says so.

 

Oliver KNOWS this is a risky choice.  I feel like because he's taking a calculated risk TA is mistaking allying with the devil he knows temporarily is akin to Oliver now liking or respecting Malcolm which is simply not the case. He still loathes Malcolm. He's made that clear. Perhaps he hasn't made it clear enough to Team Arrow but we the audience knows he hates him. Allying with him for a purpose is not the same thing as given tacit or implied approval to the shit that Malcolm has done in the past.  It's a means to an end for Oliver. He's not hanging with his bestie even if Felicity is being snarky and saying it's is BFF. 

 

It bothers me that TA is being portrayed as being oh so principled as if they've never bargained with devils before or done shady things. Felicity was a hacker and doing illegal things. John worked with Deadshot and ARGUS and the Suicide Squad.  Laurel blackmailed her way back into her job and attacked a guy in the hospital. Roy was a petty thief. I mean when you think about what they do as Team Arrow it's all fraught with moral ambiguity. But it's okay because they are saving the City (except when they fail.).

 

To me given all that Oliver has been through and everything that the team knows he went through they are reacting to his highly questionable decision making and judging him for it more than actually trying to sit down with him and say okay what the hell is really going on here.

 

Yes the problems with the city and vertigo etc don't lend time for a long discussion but maybe instead of Dig telling Oliver to keep lying to Thea or that Laurel is OKEY DOKEY now, Dig could take some time to say....Um Oliver WTF is really the deal here?  Explain to me your logic Oliver.  If Oliver stonewalls then that's on Oliver.

 

And Oliver isn't helping his own case because he's reverting back to his old my way or the highway.  He inappropriately yelled at Thea but then again Thea is a big girl, kind of kicked Ollie's ass that one time and besides it's her older brother and they have yelled at each other for years.  IMO Roy over reacted to him yelling at Thea and then Roy became no better than Oliver because he made it about him not Thea when he said Oliver wasn't the only one that gets to defend Thea...which is a weird ass argument to make LOL (again terrible writing).

 

I'm also not supporting the set up for Lauriver 2.0. I'm pointing out that it looks like some possible table setting for that, which NOPE do not want. 

Edited February 16, 2015 by catrox14

[jay741982]

I guess I didn't make my viewpoint clear enough that this isn't about what Oliver is doing that bothers me. It's the way the team is reacting to him barely being back a week.  I never said I agree with Oliver's decision but it's the choice he's making and they don't have to agree with him and they can try to convince that he's making a mistake.  But to literally tell him he has no right to question choices is weird and is not really better than him saying it's his decision and the team should go along with cause he says so.

 

Oliver KNOWS this is a risky choice.  I feel like because he's taking a calculated risk TA is mistaking allying with the devil he knows temporarily is akin to Oliver now liking or respecting Malcolm which is simply not the case. He still loathes Malcolm. He's made that clear. Perhaps he hasn't made it clear enough to Team Arrow but we the audience knows he hates him. Allying with him for a purpose is not the same thing as given tacit or implied approval to the shit that Malcolm has done in the pasta. It's a means to an end. It bothers me that TA is being portrayed as being oh so principled that they've never bargained with devils before either. They all have done shady stuff . Felicity was a hacker and doing illegal things. John worked with Deadshot and ARGUS and the Suicide Squad.  Laurel blackmailed her way back into her job and attacked a guy in the hospital. Roy was a petty thief. I mean when you think about what they do as Team Arrow it's all fraught with moral ambiguity. But it's okay because they are saving the City (except when they fail.).

 

To me given all that Oliver has been through and everything that the team knows he went through they are reacting to his highly questionable decision making and judging him for it more than actually trying to sit down with him and say okay what the hell is really going on here. And yes the problems with the city and vertigo etc don't lend time for a long discussion but maybe instead of Dig telling Oliver to keep lying to Thea or that Laurel is OKEY DOKEY now, Dig could take some time to say....Um Oliver WTF is really the deal here. Explain to me your logic Oliver.  If Oliver stonewalls then that's on Oliver. And Oliver isn't helping his own case because he's reverting back to his old my way or the highway.  He inappropriately yelled at Thea but then again Thea is a big girl, kind of kicked Ollie's ass that one time and besides it's her older brother and they have yelled at each other for years.  IMO Roy over reacted to him yelling at Thea and then Roy became no better than Oliver because he made it about him not Thea when he said Oliver wasn't the only one that gets to defend Thea...which is a weird ass argument to make LOL (again terrible writing).

 

I'm also not supporting the set up for Lauriver 2.0. I'm pointing out that it looks like some possible table setting for that, which NOPE do not want.

I see what you are saying ill also add Malcolm Mentions it's been 3 weeks since Oliver Returned when we first see him in the Arrow Cave

[Password]

I can't even pick a side here between Oliver vs. Team Arrow, because I can't buy anyone's motivation. Everyone is dumb to me, because the writers devised the most simplistic plan they could come up with: Team Arrow picked Laurel's side, and Oliver picked Malcolm's. And then everyone is mad at each other, and unable to unederstand each other, or listen to each other, because plot contrivance.

I'm in the same place here. I don't pick anyone's side because I'm so distracted by the awful happening all around it. I'm so bored of TA strife. No one talks, no one listens. Great dynamic. Everything since ep 12 has gone over my head because I don't buy it.

[jay741982]

I'm in the same place here. I don't pick anyone's side because I'm so distracted by the awful happening all around it. I'm so bored of TA strife. No one talks, no one listens. Great dynamic. Everything since ep 12 has gone over my head because I don't buy it.

Team Arrow Choose not working with a mass murderer not choosing Laurel's side Felicity and Diggle were the ones definitely against it. The two people Oliver trusts the most one of whom was completely devastated cause Malcolm basically killed the love of her life. Laurel and Roy were the dumbasses

Edited February 16, 2015 by jay741982

[dtissagirl]

.

Oliver KNOWS this is a risky choice. I feel like because he's taking a calculated risk TA is mistaking allying with the devil he knows temporarily is akin to Oliver now liking or respecting Malcolm which is simply not the case. He still loathes Malcolm. He's made that clear. Perhaps he hasn't made it clear enough to Team Arrow but we the audience knows he hates him.

I think this is where we disagree. I *don't* understand why Oliver is working with Malcolm unless I look for reasons outside of the narrative. He's making a deal with the devil because there's some wacky plot point to be reached at a further point in the narrative that demands Oliver do this now. Without Team Arrow. That looks like it was one of the points to me as well.

They wrote this in a way that took out Team Arrow's voice in this aliance. Imo, they didn't set it up in a way that said "oh, if only Oliver had talked to Team Arrow first..." I think they set it up in a way that told me Oliver is not willing to either listen to Team Arrow, nor to explain his reasons to them. Because reasons. [The reason being, if they talk, the plot crumbles.]

Edited February 16, 2015 by dancingnancy

[catrox14]

 

I see what you are saying ill also add Malcolm Mentions it's been 3 weeks since Oliver Returned when we first see him in the Arrow Cave

 

And that is Oliver's prerogative as the person that nearly died after being stabbed and pushed off a mountain, to decide when goes back to the team. He wasn't ready yet.

[KirkB]

Here's the thing for me. Malcolm no doubt does have knowledge (of Ra's, the League) and training which would improve Oliver's game and give him a better chance in the coming battle. On the other hand, Malcolm is a duplicitous psychopath who didn't even bat an eye at killing hundreds of innocent people or drugging and manipulating his own daughter to get someone else to do his dirty work for him. I could almost accept Oliver doing this if he told the team he intends to get what he needs from Malcolm then turn him over to the League. If the whole thing were one big scam on Malcolm essentially. But I'm not convinced these EPs are clever enough to think of that, let along to pull it off.

Edited February 16, 2015 by KirkB

[catrox14]

I think this is where we disagree. I *don't* understand why Oliver is working with Malcolm unless I look for reasons outside of the narrative. He's making a deal with the devil because there's some wacky plot point to be reached at a further point in the narrative that demands Oliver do this now. Without Team Arrow. That looks like it was one of the points to me as well.

They wrote this in a way that took out Team Arrow's voice in this aliance. Imo, they didn't set it up in a way that said "oh, if only Oliver had talked to Team Arrow first..." I think they set it up in a way that told me Oliver is not willing to either listen to Team Arrow, not to explain his reasons to them. Because reasons. [The reason being, if they talk, the plot crumbles.]

 

Oh I totally agree that it's not well though out nor well explained as to why Oliver is doing this. My fanwank and it's a total fanwank is that we don't yet know all the reasons why Oliver is allying with the devil.  It's my hope that there is more to his decision than meets the eye.

 

My point was  more that the team seems to be against Oliver for more than just the Malcolm thing. They are against him because he rightly doesn't think Laurel is ready for prime time.  And it proved true again here. And Roy is against him because Thea but then was for working with Malcolm until he wasn't but then he was.  Can we just change Roy's name to Kenmore instead of Arsenal because he's so wishy washy? 

 

And yet by the end of the episode after seeing Laurel get her ass kicked and then beating down Vertigo whilst hopped up on Vertigo which maybe the only reason she did that was because she was hopped up on Vertigo....Oliver decides nope, it's all good if Laurel is in the field. 

 

It's giving me a headache. My head!canon is that Oliver was just like..."you know what. Y'all are fucked up. Go ahead Laurel. Get out there. I'm done with this. I'm gonna go figure out how to beat Ra's al Ghul with an assist by Malcolm and Thea"  but he was just too nice to say it that way. So he said, yes the City is in capable hands.....

Edited February 16, 2015 by catrox14

[dtissagirl]

Yeah. I feel like this might work if Oliver is playing a long con on Malcolm, and Team Arrow, AND THE AUDIENCE at the same time. But just because it worked with the not-so-fake "I love you", it's no reason to think the audience will appreciate suffering through terrible plotting for several months, once it's all explained.

But maybe this is one season-long episode of Scooby Doo, who the hell knows with Guggenheim.

Edited February 16, 2015 by dancingnancy

[statsgirl]

The best time to make a change you've been wanting to, according to the psychologists, is when things are in an upheaval anyway because that's when it's easiest to change your old patterns (e.g. start that exercise program you've been meaning to when you've just moved apartments or started a new job).  So I can understand that this is the time when Diggle, Felicity are Roy want more say because now they are in the lair for their own reason, not because they're following Oliver, and I can understand why Oliver would want to double down on being controlling because things are going out of control for him.  One reviewer pointed out the irony, when Oliver left he told Roy to take care of Thea, and telling Oliver to let her make her own decisions is taking care of Thea.

 

The problem is that the show is rushing through the emotional beats and not letting the characters talk to each other or process things.  And just when they can take a breath now that Vertigo is in jail again and talk it all through, Oliver is rushing off to the island with Thea.

 

And it still makes no sense for Oliver to work with MM.  Just hand the guy over in exchange for keeping Thea safe.

 

It's very frustrating.  And not in a good, edge-of-the-seat way.

 

 

it's no reason to think the audience will appreciate suffering through terrible plotting for several months, once it's all explained.

Fool me once, shame on you.

Fool me twice, shame on me.

Edited February 16, 2015 by statsgirl

[apinknightmare]

And yet by the end of the episode after seeing Laurel get her ass kicked and then beating down Vertigo whilst hopped up on Vertigo which maybe the only reason she did that was because she was hopped up on Vertigo....Oliver decides nope, it's all good if Laurel is in the field. 

 

To be fair though, what exactly is he supposed to do about it? She's going to go out there whether he approves of her doing it or not - Diggle even said as much when Oliver asked why he signed off on it. He cares about her - from his perspective, wouldn't it be better to have her close where he can keep an eye on what she's doing and at least try to make sure that she doesn't hurt herself? He clearly doesn't trust her judgement given that he put a tracker on her. If she's going to do it anyway - might as well at least put her out there with people who have some idea of what they're doing. 

 

This is actually one of the few things that did make sense to me in this episode, haha.

Edited February 16, 2015 by apinknightmare

[statsgirl]

Just what Oliver needs when he's out in the field -- having to worry about Laurel getting herself killed.

[catrox14]

To be fair though, what exactly is he supposed to do about it? She's going to go out there whether he approves of her doing it or not - Diggle even said as much when Oliver asked why he signed off on it. He cares about her - from his perspective, wouldn't it be better to have her close where he can keep an eye on what she's doing and at least try to make sure that she doesn't hurt herself? He clearly doesn't trust her judgement given that he put a tracker on her. If she's going to do it anyway - might as well at least put her out there with people who have some idea of what they're doing. 

 

This is actually one of the few things that did make sense to me in this episode, haha.

 

Put the liability in the field when you have the second best fighter in Diggle hanging out in the Arrowcave instead of being in the field.  Makes NO sense to me. That's why I hope deep inside Oliver is just all" Yup.Peace out. I'd rather deal with the shit on Lian Yu than the office drama". LOL

[Password]

I wonder if Diggle would ever train with Laurel.

[apinknightmare]

Put the liability in the field when you have the second best fighter in Diggle hanging out in the Arrowcave instead of being in the field. Makes NO sense to me. That's why I hope deep inside Oliver is just all" Yup.Peace out. I'd rather deal with the shit on Lian Yu than the office drama". LOL

Diggle's been hanging in the cave for plot reasons since before Oliver even came back, so Oliver's not the one sidelining him for Laurel. Seems like Diggle's the one sidelining himself for Laurel. And if Laurel's going to do whatever in the reckless hell she wants, it makes sense to me that Oliver would want people who have some sense to keep an eye on her.

[catrox14]

I wonder if Diggle would ever train with Laurel.

 

Oh gods.  Why would you put that in the universe? :(.  Of course they will. Ugh. Diggle is a daddy now so no more going into the field...never mind that Lyla is still working for ARGUS....and he'll train Laurel so he can stay back and works comms or some other shit to sideline Diggle further.....

Diggle's been hanging in the cave for plot reasons since before Oliver even came back, so Oliver's not the one sidelining him for Laurel. Seems like Diggle's the one sidelining himself for Laurel. And if Laurel's going to do whatever in the reckless hell she wants, it makes sense to me that Oliver would want people who have some sense to keep an eye on her.

 

I don't care why Diggle is being sidelined. I hate it. IMO it's because Diggle doesn't have a mask or a costume and the EPs need their heroes to have those things.  Ugh.

[Password]

Is there any way the show can be reduced to Oliver/Diggle/Felicity again? No? Darn.

[catrox14]

I would be so happy for that.  The thing about Roy lately is that he changes as the plot needs it.  He's not even his own character really. He flip flops on Thea, Malcolm, Laurel.   I mean it's annoying but I love Roy. I think he's a good part of Team Arrow. But I don't like Laurel in the Arrowcave on any level.   I would be happy if Laurel just goes off to be a Bird of Prey with the Huntress or hangs out with the Atom. 

[benteen]

Roy and Felicity were saying they get a voice too not Your Opinion doesn't matter. Oliver doesn't get to be the only one who makes decisions remember season 2 when they made decisions as a team? Oliver is working with a mass murderer who can easily stab him in the back and could kill him. Who got his sister to murder a former girfriend. So you're saying Felicity should be fine with a man she loves working with a Piece of shit who tried to kill him and will probably do it again. Diggle should be okay with it as well? And FUCK laurel she also was ultimately against too. Same with Roy.

 

Roy was against it except for last week when Thea was for it.  Then Roy joined the Malcolm Merlyn fan club.  Seriously, how can any critic give this show such glowing reviews when it has such bad writing and characterizations that literally change to fit whatever story they're writing?

Edited February 16, 2015 by benteen

[Carrie Ann]

I think what's rubbing me the wrong way about the team's infighting is that they won't give each other the benefit of the doubt. It makes me feel like they don't understand or believe in each other--but particularly in Oliver--anymore. I saw that in Roy's reactions to Oliver w/r/t Thea in the lair, and with Felicity from the end of 312 through Canaries.

 

Instead of believing that Oliver is very protective of his family and friends, and that he has a lot of trauma, particularly in his very recent history, and that those factors may play a part in his decision-making, Felicity appears to immediately assume that Oliver is making a mercenary, fatalistic decision with Malcolm, and doesn't even try to talk him out of it. If there was a scene where she (and Diggle, preferably) at least tried to dissuade him from his plan--even if he wouldn't budge, because plot requires that--it would accomplish two goals. One, it would tell me that Felicity's first instinct is still to believe the best about Oliver, which would make her final rejection of him more effective. Two, Oliver could have provided some of his own reasons for why he feels he has no choice, and I think that would sell MG's idea that they're both right a little better. To me, it feels like Oliver is wrong and Felicity is right, but I end up not liking the way either of them are handling this.

 

They wrote this in a way that took out Team Arrow's voice in this alliance. Imo, they didn't set it up in a way that said "oh, if only Oliver had talked to Team Arrow first..." I think they set it up in a way that told me Oliver is not willing to either listen to Team Arrow, nor to explain his reasons to them. Because reasons. [The reason being, if they talk, the plot crumbles.]

 

In Seasons 1 & 2, Oliver would regularly do some dumb shit, and Dig and/or Felicity would argue against it, and by the end of the episode (or a few episodes at most), the issue would be resolved. Oliver would come out of it a better person and a stronger hero. But here, we have to blow up Team Arrow and the relationships they've carefully built--they all have to react to Oliver based only on his worst moments, and not on their years of experiences together; Oliver has to stop communicating with his team--because those relationships are inconvenient to the plot and to the rise of other characters.

 

And it's frustrating that Oliver is the only person who has to come to realizations about how he was wrong (he and Dig resolve their little disagreement, and Oliver comes around on Laurel in the end). If anything needed to "evolve" in the team dynamic in Season 3, it should have been that. I'm tired of Oliver being wrong all the time. I'm done with the show treating him like he's this terrible hero--regressing his character development--in order to prop up weaker, less experienced, less appealing, less convincing heroes.

Edited February 16, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[catrox14]

Roy was against it except for last week when Thea was for it.  Then Roy joined the Malcolm Merlyn fan club.  Seriously, how can any critic give this show such glowing reviews when it has such bad writing and characterizations that literally change to fit whatever story they're writing?

 

 

Yeah . This is what is weird. Roy is being way more personal about why he's siding with Malcolm and then not because of Thea's rationale of Oh it's my dad.  But then Oliver is just trying to protect Thea in his own illogical way by working with Malcolm but that's not okay with Roy. I don't even understand it.

[dtissagirl]

And it's frustrating that Oliver is the only person who has to come to realizations about how he was wrong (he and Dig resolve their little disagreement, and Oliver comes around on Laurel in the end). If anything needed to "evolve" in the team dynamic in Season 3, it should have been that. I'm tired of Oliver being wrong all the time. I'm done with the show treating him like he's this terrible hero--regressing his character development--in order to prop up weaker, less experienced, less appealing, less convincing heroes.

 

I'm not even completely sure I'm supposed to think Oliver is wrong about Malcolm, that's how much this plot is puzzling me.

 

I was trying to fanwank motivation here, and what I got is, I think Oliver is desperately frightened of Ra's [hello being shish kabobed and thrown off a mountain] and he found one viable solution and went with it without thinking about any other possibility because... maybe he thinks there's a super short timeframe here? I get stumped, but maybe Oliver does think Ra's is coming in no time. And he also thinks Ra's is coming for Thea as well as for him, except Ra's has no idea about Thea's involvement in anything. But Oliver overreacts when his loved ones are in danger, even if it's potential danger not yet realized? I'm trying here.

 

Things get murkier when I try to fanwank motivation for Team Arrow's acceptance of Laurel. I don't even get WHY Laurel wants to be a vigilante, much less why other people would think this is a great idea, welcome to the lifestyle, Laurel!

 

So what I end up getting here is I think Oliver is dumb for BFFing Malcolm, and I think Team Arrow is dumb for BFFing Laurel. And I think Oliver was right about not wanting Laurel anywhere near him, and I think Team Arrow was right about not wanting Malcolm anywhere near them.

 

My solution would be to get rid of Laurel and Malcolm, because they're the ones causing the dumb to spread around, but I don't think I'd ever be that lucky.

Edited February 16, 2015 by dancingnancy

[statsgirl]

I think one of them may be gone at the end of the season but it won't be Laurel.

 

So what I end up getting here is I think Oliver is dumb for BFFing Malcolm, and I think Team Arrow is dumb for BFFing Laurel. And I think Oliver was right about not wanting Laurel anywhere near him, and I think Team Arrow was right about not wanting Malcolm anywhere near them.

And that's the problem with this season, that what we think is right and should naturally follow from what has gone before doesn't.

 

That's why good detective shows are satisfying, that as the audience you put together the clues and come to the logical conclusion. When the conclusion doesn't make sense, the audience is left feeling antsy and unsatisfied.

 

This feeling like gaslighting as well as Moonlighting.

[AES13]

The worst of it, IMO, is that I don't know why anyone is doing what they're doing.  They don't allow the characters to explain themselves to each other so I don't even know whose side I'm on!  We don't know how anyone feels about what's going on either.  Having to fanwank emotions and motivations based on what we're presented is so tiring.  Maybe the ambiguousness or outright murkiness is deliberate on the writer's part to up the DRAMA! of a big reveal at the end.  All I can say is it's hard to keep watching this mess of a plot in hopes that'll it will all make sense in the end.  :(

[BkWurm1]

My point was  more that the team seems to be against Oliver for more than just the Malcolm thing. They are against him because he rightly doesn't think Laurel is ready for prime time.  And it proved true again here. And Roy is against him because Thea but then was for working with Malcolm until he wasn't but then he was.  Can we just change Roy's name to Kenmore instead of Arsenal because he's so wishy washy?

 

The vibe I've been getting is that the team has been more behind Laurel because of the Malcolm thing.  Oliver's decision to work with Malcolm also in effect forced the team as well to hang out with and play nice with Malcolm, essentially the very thing they'd drawn a line in the sand about.

 

  And for good or evil, the team did find another way to deal with Brick's take over of the Glades and Laurel played a part (I was going to say she helped but I'm not feeling that generous).  Oliver showed up and saved someone with his arrow and then stuck around for his speech but I did not get the impression that he turned the tide or anything.   I think TA would have come out of it with a few more injuries and Malcolm would have killed Brick, but the end result of taking back the Glades seemed to be a done deal with or without Oliver's return.   

 

Oliver coming back and whipping his hand across that line in the sand to obliterate it makes the sacrifices, and agonizing decisions and injures incurred to ones like Wildcat or any other civilian pointless, like if they were going to be working with Malcolm anyway, they should have just used him against Brick, thus making them guilty of being the reason anyone did get hurt. Plus it erases the pride they took in taking the hard, right stand.

 

In addition to being pushed to go against their basic instincts and morals, they are all probably struggling with guilt and resentment and a feeling of powerlessness and pointlessness then all that's wrapped up in more guilt that they are upset with Oliver whom they are so glad isn't dead but that can't cancel out the fact that his return means they are not doing what they feel is right and I feel like that is where Laurel is getting her extra strong support from.  At least they can speak up in her support still. 

 

Oliver should have returned and the team should have been, thanks Laurel, you did help, but we don't need you now.  Hey, keep training, maybe one day we'll call on you again, while secretly hoping she gets over this phase.  Instead it's become an issue about agency - that Oliver shouldn't take her's away...like he's done to the rest of the team. 

 

Again, normal human communication should solve most of these issues if they just let themselves talk to each other, but there are PLOT reasons so nobody does and we're stuck with passive aggressive crap that I can't even be mad about because I don't think anything has been suggested to suggest that the team is aware of what they are doing.  . 

Edited February 17, 2015 by BkWurm1

[catrox14]

 

liver should have returned and the team should have been, thanks Laurel, you did help, but we don't need you now.  Hey, keep training, maybe one day we'll call on you again.  Instead it's become an issue about agency - that Oliver shouldn't take her's away...like he's done to the rest of the team.

 

All of the members of TA are there of their own free will. Oliver can yell at them, advise, cajole, annoy, berate, lecture and be a dick to them but I don't see how he's taken away any of their agency unless he kicks them all out of the Arrowcave and locks the doors behind them.  As of now he's choosing to work with Malcolm without their help.  They are choosing to go on without him.  I'm not seeing where agency is a factor here.

Edited February 17, 2015 by catrox14

[BkWurm1]

All of the members of TA are there of their own free will. Oliver can yell at them, advise, cajole, annoy, berate, lecture and be a dick to them but I don't see how he's taken away any of their agency unless he kicks them all out of the Arrowcave and locks the doors behind them.  As of now he's choosing to work with Malcolm without their help.  They are choosing to go on without him.  I'm not seeing where agency is a factor here.

While Oliver and Roy were out in the field, Malcolm got to hang in the Arrow Cave.  They couldn't kick out Oliver's BFF.  His choice made them a part of it. 

 

Even if they aren't directly involved, they feel like their big decision was yanked out from under them.  Part of that decision was based on the idea that Oliver would never team up with Malcolm, they owned that as a reality and then Oliver came back to the dead and made them all liars in their own minds.  That stuff messes with your head. 

Edited February 17, 2015 by BkWurm1

[catrox14]

While Oliver and Roy were out in the field, Malcolm got to hang in the Arrow Cave.  They couldn't kick out Oliver's BFF.  His choice made them a part of it. 

 

 

I don't remember at any point Oliver declaring Malcolm to be a friend. He's a frienemy AT BEST. Felicity and Diggle could have tossed out Malcolm if they wanted to. Oliver would have been mad but there was nothing he could have done about other than breaking up with Team Arrow.   Besides that Malcolm has been wandering into the Lair of his own accord before Oliver even returned and before he  agreed to work with him.  I don't get the BFF thing other than Felicity being snarky.  

[BkWurm1]

I don't remember at any point Oliver declaring Malcolm to be a friend. He's a frienemy AT BEST. Felicity and Diggle could have tossed out Malcolm if they wanted to. Oliver would have been mad but there was nothing he could have done about other than breaking up with Team Arrow.   Besides that Malcolm has been wandering into the Lair of his own accord before Oliver even returned and before he  agreed to work with him.  I don't get the BFF thing other than Felicity being snarky.  

Ok, maybe not couldn't, but wouldn't because Oliver has chose to work with him and making him wait upstairs would be pointless and petty.  Obviously the BFF comment is sarcasm but despite telling Thea (not that the team knows, mind you) that he will always hate Malcolm, he has also told Thea that he trusts him (which the team would not want to know) 

 

The difference between Malcolm wandering in on his own in the past and now is he has a sanctioned reason to be there and he's using his deal with Oliver as an open invite.

Edited February 17, 2015 by BkWurm1

[statsgirl]

The previous episode, both Diggle and Felicity turned down working with Malcolm completely.  But now that Oliver is working with him, and Malcolm is allowed to wander down in the lair to talk to Oliver, Diggle and Felicity have to accept working with him if they want to keep working on Oliver's crusade.

 

The only choice they have is "Work with Malcolm Merlyn or stop working with Oliver".  That's a piss poor choice.  If Oliver had respected Diggle's and Felicity's autonomy, he would have kept his association with MM away from them.

[kayma]

Please tell me they're working on a Laurel spin off and that's why they're trying so hard to make her happen. I don't even really mind DA Laurel or addict Laurel but I just can't with superhero Laurel.

 

Admittedly, I missed a lot of the show when I fast forwarded through superhero Laurel, but Oliver is trying to save Thea, right? Everyone except Laurel knows it was Thea who killed Sara, right? So, Oliver can't save Thea by himself because he already tried and nearly died. Yes, it's awful to have to make deals with Malcolm but if they're trying to save Thea maybe the team should consider it instead of arguing. Or offer another option if they're so convinced there is one. I guess I don't get what that whole thing was about. Like hey, sorry you almost died. But now we're annoyed to have you back so we're just going to be snippy instead of trying to figure out a solution.

 

Or, maybe they could just spin Oliver off and let there be a Team Arrow show without him. I'd probably like a show with just Oliver better at this point anyway.

[AyChihuahua]

If Malcolm stopped holding the videotape threat over their heads, Thea would be in no danger.  Ra's has no reason to know she had anything to do with it otherwise, and would likely be satisfied with Malcolm's head.

 

Not to mention, if Malcolm himself can't beat Ra's, how can he teach Oliver to do so?  Plus, Oliver beat Malcolm already, so again, how can Malcolm teach him to defeat a much greater threat.  It makes no sense.  The reason the rest of the team aren't proposing another solution is that we aren't at the end of the season yet.  It's maddeningly stupid.

Edited February 17, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[catrox14]

Please tell me they're working on a Laurel spin off and that's why they're trying so hard to make her happen. I don't even really mind DA Laurel or addict Laurel but I just can't with superhero Laurel.

 

Admittedly, I missed a lot of the show when I fast forwarded through superhero Laurel, but Oliver is trying to save Thea, right? Everyone except Laurel knows it was Thea who killed Sara, right? So, Oliver can't save Thea by himself because he already tried and nearly died. Yes, it's awful to have to make deals with Malcolm but if they're trying to save Thea maybe the team should consider it instead of arguing. Or offer another option if they're so convinced there is one. I guess I don't get what that whole thing was about. Like hey, sorry you almost died. But now we're annoyed to have you back so we're just going to be snippy instead of trying to figure out a solution.

 

Or, maybe they could just spin Oliver off and let there be a Team Arrow show without him. I'd probably like a show with just Oliver better at this point anyway.

I wish Oliver had come back with..What would Diggle do if it was his baby girl in danger and there were limited options like Oliver thinks he has? Or if it was Felicity's mom? I suppose it's easier to be principled when you're not feeling desperate for options.

... Sadly Roy seems to have only Thea and Oliver so maybe that's why he waffled.

[Starfish35]

Well look at it from the other side. What if it had been Felicity that Malcolm made Thea kill? Or Diggle? How would we react to Oliver working with him then?

[apinknightmare]

I wish Oliver had come back with..What would Diggle do if it was his baby girl in danger and there were limited options like Oliver thinks he has? Or if it was Felicity's mom? I suppose it's easier to be principled when you're not feeling desperate for options.

 

Yeah, this all goes back to everyone just not talking to each other or talking around each other. Felicity got angry the second Oliver said he was working with Malcolm without any explanation, but Oliver also never explained exactly why he's working with Malcolm. I mean, from the outside it's just a do-over of the first time. Ra's is going to come for Thea, and Oliver's trying to stop it. The first time nearly got him killed and the second time, who even knows? And when he actually had the opportunity to explain it to her, he chose turn her anger around on her by claiming the team up wasn't why she was upset - it was because of ~feelings or whatever. 

 

Has Oliver explained to anyone why he's working with Malcolm? Has anyone asked? Show, stop making this so difficult.

Edited February 17, 2015 by apinknightmare

[apinknightmare]

Well look at it from the other side. What if it had been Felicity that Malcolm made Thea kill? Or Diggle? How would we react to Oliver working with him then?

 

My problem isn't necessarily that he's teaming up with Malcolm. I get that - sometimes we have to unsavory things to keep the people we love safe. It's that he's doing it without any discussion with anyone when he should've learned his lesson by now that his first course of action isn't always the best one. And it's that he hasn't even acknowledged that he's going to try to protect himself from getting duped by Malcolm. Again. It's like he's going into it with his eyes shut and zero self-preservation instinct, and that's what makes it difficult for me to accept. And he's doing this all in the name of protecting Thea while not making her aware of the fact that the guy he's trusting to save them is the same one who put them in the crosshairs in the first place - by drugging her and making her kill Sara. 

 

So, it's not the team-up that bothers me so much as Oliver going about it in the most moronic way possible.

[catrox14]

Well look at it from the other side. What if it had been Felicity that Malcolm made Thea kill? Or Diggle? How would we react to Oliver working with him then?

I think Oliver would make the same choice because Felicity, Diggle and Roy are family to Oliver too. If Oliver believes that working with malcolm is the only way, to protect those he loves whether he is right or wrong, IMO he would make a deal. We already know that if Oliver has to make some lousy deals with various Devils to survive he will.

[KirkB]

Here's what I don't get. Why doesn't Oliver knock Malcolm out, tie him up, and bring him to the League? They're obviously not hard to find. Dump him at Ra's feet and say "I lied to protect my city. Here is the one who really killed Sara." What's Malcolm going to do? Without the video, which hopefully Oliver or Felicity would make sure was found and destroyed once Malcolm was caught, it's his word against Oliver's. And since putting Sara aside, Ra's wanted Malcolm anyway, this is pretty much the best of both worlds. Malcolm dies, eventually, and no one but Team Arrow is any the wiser. Granted, it would make more for a shorter and probably less interesting to watch season, but then again so has a lot of what they've actually done.

[statsgirl]

But that still doesn't excuse why he's not talking to Diggle and Felicity about the big picture.  For two years, they've helped him fight and worked out solutions with him to defeat his enemies.  That's how he eventually took Slade down, because Felicity said "make him out-think you."

 

This whole season has been about Oliver making stupid decisions on his own, from protecting Malcolm from the LoA when he should have handed him over, to shutting out Felicity, to believing Tatsu when she says only a student can defeat the master, which is ridiculous since he defeated his enemies before by switching up the game, not by playing their game better than they do.

 

I'd get the "Am I Oliver Queen or am I the Arrow?" season theme, if only the Arrow weren't acting like a blinkered idiot.

[catrox14]

But that still doesn't excuse why he's not talking to Diggle and Felicity about the big picture.  For two years, they've helped him fight and worked out solutions with him to defeat his enemies.  That's how he eventually took Slade down, because Felicity said "make him out-think you."

 

This whole season has been about Oliver making stupid decisions on his own, from protecting Malcolm from the LoA when he should have handed him over, to shutting out Felicity, to believing Tatsu when she says only a student can defeat the master, which is ridiculous since he defeated his enemies before by switching up the game, not by playing their game better than they do.

 

I'd get the "Am I Oliver Queen or am I the Arrow?" season theme, if only the Arrow weren't acting like a blinkered idiot.

 

If Oliver has another plan afoot that he can't tell them about what else could he tell them?  He said he needed to beat Ra's and that Malcolm was the way to do it. I also think he figured they would trust him to be doing something he felt he had no other choice to do.

 

I think the big problem here is broken trust between Oliver and TA. I don't really understand when that trust was broken but I can only think it's because Oliver died as far as they knew. And there was some kind of resentment towards him for not racing back to TA after he nearly died and was left on a mountain side. Felicity is hurt because Oliver made a choice that he couldn't be with her and I think her level of trust in Oliver dropped because of that hurt.  Then he comes back and makes a unilateral decision without consulting the team.  Even though it took a vote for the team to not make a deal with the same evil-doer that Oliver made a deal with they were still upset with him.

 

And I think Oliver is  taken aback by the lack of trust in his decision here. And he can't understand why they no longer trust him to make those unilateral decisions both good and bad that he's made in the past. But I personally don't think Oliver's decision making as been SO terrible that they shouldn't trust him on this one even though it's with the worst person in the world. 

[tennisgurl]

That`s been the issue with this season for me, no one will communicate! No one can know Thea was brainwashed into killing Sarah, Quentin cant know Sara is dead, Oliver and Felicity cant have a real talk about their relationship, Oliver cant explain why he wanted to protect Malcom from the League, people just need to talk to each other! A huge part of Oliver`s arc is how he needs to open up and trust people again, but now it seems like hes backpedaling, even with him telling Thea the truth about being the Arrow.

 

It might be a bi-product of having less Arrow-centric stories this season, in their desperation to make Black Canary Laurel and The Atom work.  

[dtissagirl]

If Oliver has another plan afoot that he can't tell them about what else could he tell them? He said he needed to beat Ra's and that Malcolm was the way to do it. I also think he figured they would trust him to be doing something he felt he had no other choice to do.

If Oliver has a plan he hasn't told the others about, then he hasn't told the audience about it either... and then it's *me* who won't trust him, because he's deceiving ME in the audience, and I'm not fond of this kind of storytelling. [unless it's Leverage and I've signed up for it.]

As far as the season's shown us, Tatsu told him "only the student can defeat the master" meaning *Maseo*, and Oliver took it as gospel, but perverted it into *Malcolm*. I think the show is telling the audience as well that what Tatsu said is the only way? I'm not sure here, but ultimately I can't buy that Tatsu is right that this is the only possible plan, because just like Oliver, I know Barry can super sonic punch Ra's into oblivion, and that Lyla has access to some seriously powerful weapons that could obliterate Nanda Parbat from existence.

So the only conclusion I can make is that Oliver's decision is dumbass stupid, and that I can't trust his decision making in this matter.

Edited February 17, 2015 by dancingnancy

[catrox14]

If Oliver has a plan he hasn't told the others about, then he hasn't told the audience about it either... and then it's *me* who won't trust him, because he's deceiving ME in the audience, and I'm not fond of this kind of storytelling. [unless it's Leverage and I've signed up for it.]

As far as the season's shown us, Tatsu told him "only the student can defeat the master" meaning *Maseo*, and Oliver took it as gospel, but perverted it into *Malcolm*. I think the show is telling the audience as well that what Tatsu said is the only way? I'm not sure here, but ultimately I can't buy that Tatsu is right that this is the only possible plan, because just like Oliver, I know Barry can super sonic punch Ra's into oblivion, and that Lyla has access to some seriously powerful weapons that could obliterate Nanda Parbat from existence.

So the only conclusion I can make is that Oliver's decision is dumbass stupid, and that I can't trust his decision making in this matter.

 

The problem we have now with ever doing crossover episodes is that we'll remember the Flash can do things other people can't do. But if I default to the Flash to help Oliver against Ra's then Oliver has no journey.  So for me, I fanwank that this is something only Oliver can do because it's like some kind of spiritual thing...otherwise...what's the point of Oliver even being in his own show? 

 

I don't have a problem with a secret being kept from the audience. We didn't know Oliver had a plan to tell Felicity he loved her in 9.23 but I bought it hook line and sinker as both a ruse and declaration of love. At this point, I'd rather there be another plan that I don't know about. 

[apinknightmare]

I don't have a problem with a secret being kept from the audience. 

 

I do. 

 

I actually loved the twist at the end of last season, because I had completely forgotten that Slade had cameras in the mansion, and while I knew it was all too good to be true, I didn't expect Oliver to go there. It was dickishly awesome on Oliver's part. It's cool storytelling once in a while, but writers have to seriously be careful with that. The good thing about that trick was that they gave us all the pieces to put it together about 10 minutes after they "fooled" us. 

 

If there is indeed some long-term secret keeping going on here, the writers risk losing the trust of their audience (and they're doing a bang-up job of doing that anyway). What good is it to get invested if I'm going to continuously be tricked or fooled into believing something that's not true? And what would be the point of Oliver not trusting Diggle and Felicity with his plan? What reason would he have not to? Does he think they're compromised for whatever reason? If the plan came to light after last episode when there was some tension between them, I'd believe it. But he literally walked right into the foundry with this decision already made - there was never a chance at discussing it with them. Is it because he somehow knows Malcolm has the foundry bugged (ugh, retread of last year's storyline). Okay, so...he knows that and doesn't move to another lair - then everything they talk about in there from the time Oliver returns to whenever this secret plan plays out can't be trusted. Did Oliver mean it? Was it real? Was it because he knew he was being watched by Malcolm? Same old, same old. 

 

Diggle and Felicity can't secretly be in on it, because the team up with Malcolm is generating an actual rift between them. If that's all a ruse, then everything, literally everything we're seeing right now is a trick. Why would I tune back in next season when they're giving me character developments that they're just going to take back?

 

I'd honestly rather Oliver be a high-level moron then for him to have some kind of secret he's letting literally no one in on.  

[dtissagirl]

The problem we have now with ever doing crossover episodes is that we'll remember the Flash can do things other people can't do. But if I default to the Flash to help Oliver against Ra's then Oliver has no journey.  So for me, I fanwank that this is something only Oliver can do because it's like some kind of spiritual thing...otherwise...what's the point of Oliver even being in his own show?

 

Arrow has lost its right to my fanwanking subpar plotting this season. Because there's nothing BUT subpar plotting. So I'm really going as it is in-text only. They are skipping any subtext writing, so I'm skipping the fanwanking. They brought Barry in, so I'll hold them accountable for that. They made Ra's into such an non-entity, that I can't see what defeating a mumbly dude with a beer gut brings to Oliver's development and superhero journey. So if Oliver is fooling me as well as Team Arrow, I'm going SON, JUST DON'T on his ass.

[statsgirl]

I'm okay with Oliver keeping a plan secret for part of an episode as Unthinkable did.  I may even be okay with him keeping it for a whole episode.  But four episodes?  Ten now if you're counting from The Magician when he protected Malcolm.  No way.

I think the big problem here is broken trust between Oliver and TA. I don't really understand when that trust was broken but I can only think it's because Oliver died as far as they knew. And there was some kind of resentment towards him for not racing back to TA after he nearly died and was left on a mountain side. Felicity is hurt because Oliver made a choice that he couldn't be with her and I think her level of trust in Oliver dropped because of that hurt.  Then he comes back and makes a unilateral decision without consulting the team.  Even though it took a vote for the team to not make a deal with the same evil-doer that Oliver made a deal with they were still upset with him.

 

And I think Oliver is  taken aback by the lack of trust in his decision here. And he can't understand why they no longer trust him to make those unilateral decisions both good and bad that he's made in the past. But I personally don't think Oliver's decision making as been SO terrible that they shouldn't trust him on this one even though it's with the worst person in the world. 

Ever since Diggle joined the crusade, he's been guiding Oliver in terms of his decisions wrt fighing and the art of dealing with an enemy. Ever since Felicity joined in 1x14, she's been helping him make the right decisions to becoming a hero (e.g. in The Dodger, she refused to work with him when she thought he was going to kill the man who was a single parent).  That's more than two years that he's been counting on them to have his back as he has theirs.

 

Oliver lost their trust when he came back, announced that they were all going to work with Malcolm Merlyn, and didn't explain or discuss it with them.  Of course Diggle and Felicity are going to react badly.  Of course they're going to be wondering what happened to him and at what point they're going to have to say "No, I won't do that".

 

I don't think it has anything to do with no racing back, and everything to do with what they perceive is a lack of respect on Oliver's part towards them.

[icandigit]

 

As far as the season's shown us, Tatsu told him "only the student can defeat the master" meaning *Maseo*, and Oliver took it as gospel, but perverted it into *Malcolm*. I think the show is telling the audience as well that what Tatsu said is the only way?

I was thinking about this today also. It is one of the few things they've been consistent about on the show. Oliver listening to bad advice or applying the advice he's given in the wrong way. I'm really not sure what is supposed to be considered the right path. I actually agree with both sides of the argument. My assumption is that they will have Felicity shown to be right. Not, because she has a rationale argument(which she does). But, because Oliver has to mess up and learn and other random blah blah manufactured non-growth.

[catrox14]

I'm okay with Oliver keeping a plan secret for part of an episode as Unthinkable did.  I may even be okay with him keeping it for a whole episode.  But four episodes?  Ten now if you're counting from The Magician when he protected Malcolm.  No way.

Ever since Diggle joined the crusade, he's been guiding Oliver in terms of his decisions wrt fighing and the art of dealing with an enemy. Ever since Felicity joined in 1x14, she's been helping him make the right decisions to becoming a hero (e.g. in The Dodger, she refused to work with him when she thought he was going to kill the man who was a single parent).  That's more than two years that he's been counting on them to have his back as he has theirs.

 

Oliver lost their trust when he came back, announced that they were all going to work with Malcolm Merlyn, and didn't explain or discuss it with them.  Of course Diggle and Felicity are going to react badly.  Of course they're going to be wondering what happened to him and at what point they're going to have to say "No, I won't do that".

 

I don't think it has anything to do with no racing back, and everything to do with what they perceive is a lack of respect on Oliver's part towards them.

 

To me, I think  they have established enough trust over time as a team that them immediately pearl clutching over Oliver's decision meant the trust was lost before he came back.  But I'm sure we won't concur on this.  JMO :)

[dtissagirl]

To me, I think  they have established enough trust over time as a team that them immediately pearl clutching over Oliver's decision meant the trust was lost before he came back.  But I'm sure we won't concur on this.  JMO :)

But see, your saying "pearl clutching" tells me you're not looking at this from Felicity and Diggle's pov at all. They do have valid reasons for losing their trust in Oliver right at the moment he said he's working with Malcolm. The episode went out of its way to make it a huge breach of trust. They had Felicity say that Oliver would never in a million years work with Malcolm [hell, she said it twice], and had Diggle tell Merlyn "no" just so the audience would know where they stood, and how much of a disappointment and betrayal it would feel when Oliver gave them the news.

This whole miscommunication is dumb and plot-driven, but it was set up as Team Arrow deciding for the higher moral ground, and Oliver deciding the end justifies the means.