S03.E04: Dimebag

[shura]

I was actually surprised that Tim didn't make a more overt play for Henry at that dinner table. He just let Henry sit there and develop interest on his own, and then just said that baptism is a beautiful ceremony when Henry asked.

[RedHawk]

I think the bigger parenting issue is that one or both of them is highly likely to end up DEAD... (and then what??)

 

Yes, and then what? I'm sure they've thought of this. I believe Philip was thinking about what might happen to the children when he wasn't sure Elizabeth was going to come home that night when their car was followed. What can they do -- refuse some assignments they decide are "too dangerous" and finally just tell The Centre they're out? Yes, Philip said that to the man in the bookstore, but he knows it's not that easy by any means. This is a job you can't just quit because you "need to spend more time with the kids", although Philip seems to be getting to the point where he would love to do that and may try to figure out how.

 

Part of the interesting tension of the show (for me) is that P&E love their children and yet are involved in this dangerous, immoral, horrible work that at any time could lead to their imprisonment, sudden disappearance, or death. Or yes, cause them to be away from home and out of contact when there's a fire, or a break-in, or one of the kids has appendicitis. When they signed up to do this they had no idea what it would feel like one day to be parents and want to protect their kids from all harm. All that is coming to a head and they are deep in it, now what?

Edited February 22, 2015 by RedHawk

[Guest]

Do you guys think it's deliberate that the EST douche (and I love that guy and how he's almost always That Guy) and Pastor Tim kind of resemble each other? Both have similar hairstyles and haircolor -- the blonde wavy mops -- and it's really strange so I feel it's got to be deliberate, to the point where I almost confuse them from scene to scene.

 

I agree that Pastor Tim was completely focused on Paige at the dinner, and that this was later mirrored by Philip with Kimmy and her friends. I can't help but feel for Elizabeth and Philip at the dinner -- they know exactly how easy it is to manipulate a teenager (poor Philip at the moment all too well), yet nothing they see is tangible enough for them to point out to Paige. And the guy does totally squick me out. There is definitely something wrong going on there somewhere -- not necessarily sexual, but something. Ever since they took Paige's money I've felt that they're definitely going to be revealed as crooked. They're just too invasive, too pushy, too much. 

 

Also, Pastor Tim resembles Philip in his Jim disguise, which I think is deliberate and leads right to your next paragraph.  Tim is using his charisma and charm and whatever he can to seduce Paige into furthering his organization's moral agenda.  "Jim" is using his wiles with Kimmie to the same end.  

 

About the Jennings being neglectful parents... my experience growing up then was parents mostly all raised their kids in that absentee kind of way.  Close supervision wasn't the big focus it is now.  Adults went about their business.  They fed a nutritious dinner and expected kids to stay out of trouble and behave and that was pretty much 'good parenting'.  

[SlackerInc]

Philip and Kimmy is definitely gross.

 

I see no one else is willing to say it "out loud", but I seriously doubt I'm the only one who thought it was hot, rather than gross (and I think it was directed and edited that way too).  Contrast with the really gross guy who hit on Paige in S1.

 

That and in particular Elizabeth's "She set us up" was at least a little paranoid without a likely cause.  Elizabeth has been going to church with Paige and stuffing envelopes and allegedly being all "I will share in this experience and smile during services, as I sing hymns for I am down with this religious stuff now" ...so why would Paige think that they would so fully flip out about her being baptized?  

 

 

Yes, this.  As an atheist parent myself, I would have considered the battle already lost by this point.  Who cares if she sprinkles some water on her forehead (or gets dunked, depending) in a onetime ceremony?

 

Also, that moment at EST when he tried to throw Philip under the bus and Philip just side-eyed him dryly without moving was absolutely hilarious. 

 

 

Yes!  I was surprised not to see comment on this anywhere at Hitfix or AV Club.  Also surprised Philip didn't give him shit about it after the meeting.

 

 

I really do think that Pastor Tim has been objectively shown to be sketchy.

 

I never thought this at all, and at first I thought people were just being paranoid but then so many people started saying this on boards and blogs that I started to wonder.  After last season was over, though, the showrunners did an extensive interview with Alan Sepinwall, and expressed frustration/irritation that they kept hearing this about the pastor.  Their response was to try to tell people something like "he's just a nice pastor, from a nice church, he's not up to anything" and grouse that people these days are always expecting reversals and "twists" and so on.  That said, they could always end up reversing themselves; but it sure seems like they very much did not intend this interpretation and are nonplussed by it.

[DrSpaceman]

The pastor has never struck me as being anything than a bit full of himself over his anti-war work and genuinely interested in spreading the message of the Bible to whoever is willing to listen, including Paige. 

 

I think the reactions of some viewers to him is a combination of an inherent current mistrust of the Christian church's message and the true intentions of some Catholic/Christian chruch leaders.  ANd honestly that is justified in many cases and the Christian movement's fault for, in many cases, putting politics and money ahead of the true main message of the Bible.

 

There are some genuinely caring church leaders though with no secondary desires or plots in mind, and this pastor strikes me as such, until we are shown more otherwise. 

[sistermagpie]

Their response was to try to tell people something like "he's just a nice pastor, from a nice church, he's not up to anything" and grouse that people these days are always expecting reversals and "twists" and so on.  That said, they could always end up reversing themselves; but it sure seems like they very much did not intend this interpretation and are nonplussed by it.

 

 

That's the fascinating and funny thing about Tim to me, because I've totally agreed with them on many of the theories about him--like that he's in the KGB. I never believed he was anything other than what he appeared to be, which is a pastor from a church. But while we laugh when Elizabeth rails about religion while missing the parallel in her own life...but that doesn't make the parallel any less real the other way. You can't really toss him into an ep with the EST guy and with Jim and not have me notice the parallels that are there. Which doesn't at all require him to have a sinister agenda beyond the non-hidden one.

 

I saw a thing on twitter where the actor said something like "What did I ever do to you?" (joking) when yet another person was saying Tim was creepy. :-) I don't think viewers are making stuff up on this score, though. (Of course I would say that since I agree with them.)

 

I think the reactions of some viewers to him is a combination of an inherent current mistrust of the Christian church's message and the true intentions of some Catholic/Christian chruch leaders.

 

 

 

Also on this show most recurring characters who aren't established as spies inspire a theory about them being secretly bad in some way or having some secret identity. Zinaida's Elizabeth's mother, the guy Philip literally bumped into at the conference is KGB or FBI, the guy who picked up Paige and Henry in the car was also KGB, Kelly on the bus is KGB. The funny thing about this is that the show does not actually do that ever. Spies are established as such pretty early on--Grannie appeared in one scene before Philip outed her and even Zinaida was inspiring suspicion in Stan by her second ep (and she was already established as having just arrived from Russia). So I think a lot of times people want to call the twist before it happens despite the show not really leaning much on those kinds of twists at all.

 

I see no one else is willing to say it "out loud", but I seriously doubt I'm the only one who thought it was hot, rather than gross (and I think it was directed and edited that way too).  Contrast with the really gross guy who hit on Paige in S1.

 

 

That convo over on AVClub (my disqus account has a different name) really got me thinking about it. This show goes to a lot of weird sexual places and isn't afraid to explore them. As Philip says, you never know what people are into. And the more I think about this whole storyline the more interesting it is because it really does, I think, challenge the standard narrative. (It reminds me a bit of Behind the Red Door when I remember disagreeing with a lot of people who accused Philip of rape in the role-play scene despite him being the one who was only reluctantly consenting.)

 

What it got me thinking about was the difference between Jim and that guy at the mall. Because my personal feelings on a guy like Jim if he was a real guy would be that he was a sleaze and that he would be  predatory because  he's going after younger people to give himself more control. I'd  assume the guy had some real insecurities or misogyny or something that made him afraid of being in a more equal relationship with a woman (this is of course separate from whether or not he could look at someone under the age of consent and feel sexual attraction at all.) I think that's definitely true of the guy in the mall.

 

But Jim is  really Philip who isn't that, so can manage to come across as less sleazy (maybe making him more disturbing for some viewers). Unlike the guy at the mall, he's not actually looking to Kimmie to feed his ego, not getting anything out of her interest in him beyond it giving him a way to manipulate her to give him info. He's not going to get truly jealous or possessive of her sexually (though he might pretend to be if she wanted it). Just as Clark is created to be Martha's fantasy Jim is basically Kimmie's fantasy: the older guy who really is too cool for her but might not be able to resist her because she's not really a kid etc. 

 

On one hand he's far more dangerous because he's really a spy who's after very dangerous material and is trying to get her to do terrible things that could get her into real trouble or get her killed. But as a sexual fantasy, as ever, he's whatever she wants or needs him to be.

 

And I wonder if that makes him far more disturbing than the guy at the mall who comes across as threatening, yes, but also pathetic because he preys on these young girls. Jim's striking up conversations with teenagers and impressing them with his Fake ID and pot knowledge and connections, but at his core we can still see/feel (at least I can) the far cooler, non-pathetic guy within.

[tennisgurl]

I feel like, its almost like Philip and Elizabeth`s various seductions are just jobs to them. They never come of as sleezy, or even sexy, its just them doing what they think they need to do get the job done. This is all pretty disturbing, but we, the audience, know that Philip is just doing a job, without any actual sexual interest in Kimmy.

 

As to Paster Tim, I have never really gotten a creepy vibe from him, except that he`s a church guy on a TV show. Church guys on TV shows are pretty much always shady at best, predatory at worst, so I feel like the audience just expects it the second we see a church guy. Especially one that has strong political beliefs, or works with teenagers.   

[Guest]

I don't think Tim is a spy or a crook, just the kind of religious leader I run into a lot and rarely like-- good-looking, charismatic, full of themselves, adoring wives, used to being the center of attention, offering spiritual guidance while taking your money every chance they get.  

 

I found the Kimmie scene really interesting whereas I find the Martha/Clark sex scenes really squicky.  Between Kim's hair, clothes, hormones and boom box, I was so transported back to me as a teen.  I felt bad for Philip because he clearly has qualms, given Paige's age.  But I don't find their scenes "look away" gross and I'm anxious to see more.  

 

[paramitch]

I am loving, by the way, how everybody is on the "Zinaida is too chipper to be for real" bandwagon now.

My impression of Zinaida's cheerfulness has been that she's somewhat overplaying the "Candy bars! Tuna melts! I'm so happy to finally  be in America!" thing. Which I can buy as believable, but in her case, that she's overdoing it just enough to ping Stan's radar.

 

I thought it was interesting that Nina used the absolute truth when feeling out her cellmate. She and Stan are both being honest. In Nina's case, her honesty is used to lure and trap her cellmate into revealing herself. In Stan's case, it hurts the woman he's trying to lure back to him. So, honesty is kind of a weapon.

 

I really liked the fact that Nina went with as much of the truth as possible when playing up to her cellmate. John Steinbeck once wrote a beautiful bit about the tactics of successful liars (in East of Eden), and it was basically to use as much of the truth as possible. What I think is interesting here is that we're watching Nina's progression as a spy -- my favorite thing about Nina is that she surprises me all the time as a character, and we can also see, many times, that she is also surprising herself as well.

 

Sure her parents work a lot--so do a lot of parents have to do that. It doesn't make them disinterested in their kids. We've got plenty of scenes and references to Elizabeth and Philip taking very clear interest in their kids, spending time with them, talking to them, hanging out with them. I honestly feel like we've swung so far in this direction as a society that any time parents have any passionate interests other than their kids (in TV and movies) it's assumed the kids are neglected and hurting.

 

I think Philip and Elizabeth are okay parents, although they won't win any awards, exactly, either. The kids are old enough that, for the times, it simply wasn't unusual for them to be on their own and without a babysitter. I was a latchkey kid, and caring for my little sister alone at a much younger age than Paige is -- I just think standards there have changed. For the time period they're in, I can believe that leaving the kids alone would be seen as fairly routine and harmless.

 

Elizabeth has been somewhat transparently trying to manipulate Phillip (standing there naked and talking about Hans checking her out, for instance), but I almost preferred that to Elizabeth openly telling him it didn't matter what he thought, or how he felt about it.  I find Elizabeth a fascinating character, but I wouldn't mind seeing this all blow up in her face at this point.  I doubt it will, because the central premise of the show sort of requires that they continue spying, unobstructed.  I wouldn't mind seeing her forced into being a double agent though.  She ticked me off that much, because it isn't just for some "the glory of our wonderful cause!" it's that she's panicking about losing her daughter into what amounts to the freedoms of America and the United States.

 

First off, I cannot stand Milky Ways so YAY! Someone else shares my loathing! It's just all this mush to me, aghghghhg. Where nougat is concerned, I tend to prefer your Snickers or Baby Ruth approaches. (Also, I'm interested to check out Alison Moyet. I do remember Yaz, but what's hilarious is that I only remember Yaz from like 1989, not 1982, so this just goes to show how lame and nerdy I was.)

 

I think you point out something interesting here with Elizabeth -- that her actions here aren't just due to her fanaticism to her cause, but also to a sort of panicked selfishness. She's "losing" her daughter to the U.S. and religion, and her response is that it's better for Paige to be a spy and a slave for life than for her to become just another happy U.S. citizen (who leaves them). I do see how abhorrent it is for Elizabeth -- a true believer in the Soviet cause -- to have raised a religious, patriotic, happy little American teenager. But I definitely think it will blow up in her face (and I'm rooting for it to). I also think she's disregarding Philip's concerns because on some level she's always been contemptuous of Philip (just the slightest bit) so it's gonna be interesting to see him proven right here.

 

while I hesitate to actually speculate about Philip since we don't know, I always imagine his opinion based on what he's said to be that he's not ashamed of actually enjoying the good stuff while he's got it. I assume that politically his feeling is that he wants a system where *everyone* has enough and he sees capitalism as condemning some people to poverty while others get too much. Elizabeth's view on that is much more black and white where she judges Philip for not hating (or saying he hates) all this stuff when he doesn't.

I think that's a subtle but important distinction, that Philip can be a good Soviet soldier while also enjoying Western comforts and there's no paradox there for him. But I also think this season we're seeing him hold onto those beliefs by concentrating on specifics (incidents abroad, specific political issues) versus the big picture.

 

Hence his overcompensating confession, which Stan probably naively thought would help to heal their rift somehow rather than hurt her more. But he discovered that, unsurprisingly, Sandra might've actually preferred a little bit of denial to such brutal honesty. Exactly where you draw the line between honesty and positivity is one of the central tensions of the episode: "Do you want a ringing endorsement or do you want to know how the burgers are?"

 

Nicely put. Although I actually thought Stan's moment with Sandra -- while clumsy and ultimately hurtful -- was nevertheless the right thing. Sandra has been yelling at him to be honest even where it's not pleasant, and he finally was. And predictably, it hurt. I don't want the two of them to get back together, but I definitely like and care about Stan a lot more this season than I have in awhile (watching Nina manipulate him got a bit old). I like Stan as a formidable opponent, not beaten down.

 

I am not sure how many examples we need that their jobs result in neglectful parenting that have put Paige and Henry at serious risk. Seriously all of these things in combination in this day and age may very well lead to a child protective services investigation of Elizabeth and phillip.

 

Most of the examples you mention, however, were situations in which the children took actions their parents weren't aware of, and that no parent would have been aware of (and leaving them alone in a cabin for a few hours wouldn't raise eyebrows for anyone, especially not in that time period -- Paige is old enough to babysit). However, while sneaking out or lying is not that unusual (especially in a teenager), I do think that there is something in the kids' testing of rules and limits which may be tied to an unconscious recognition that something about their own family's life is a lie on some level. That would be really interesting to see.

 

I was a theatre kid in the 1980's. We would sing this at our cast parties. Then we'd put the Chess soundtrack on and all hell would break loose.

My people! This post may or may not have had me breaking into "I Know Him So Well" and "One Night in Bangkok." Good times.

 

So, I wonder if Paige might speculate that her parents are AMERICAN spies, not Soviet spies.

 

Interesting thought -- and it would be that much more of a blow if Paige then discovered that her parents are traitors (in her eyes) against America.

 

Also, Pastor Tim resembles Philip in his Jim disguise, which I think is deliberate and leads right to your next paragraph.  Tim is using his charisma and charm and whatever he can to seduce Paige into furthering his organization's moral agenda.  "Jim" is using his wiles with Kimmie to the same end.

 

Excellent observation -- this convinces me even further that these are deliberate choices by the writers to invoke these kinds of different reflections, perhaps of a single (untrustworthy or smarmy) type of man -- fluffy blonde hair, big smile, handsome, the All-American ideal. We also know that Philip loathes the pastor (and possibly the EST guy) so it's interesting that in his courtship of Kimmy, he's chosen to adopt a persona he intensely dislikes -- but that he also knows is effective. It just adds another layer to Philip's feelings about the whole situation.

[topanga]

I think Philip and Elizabeth are okay parents, although they won't win any awards, exactly, either. The kids are old enough that, for the times, it simply wasn't unusual for them to be on their own and without a babysitter. I was a latchkey kid, and caring for my little sister alone at a much younger age than Paige is -- I just think standards there have changed. For the time period they're in, I can believe that leaving the kids alone would be seen as fairly routine and harmless.

Yes, but it always bothered me that the kids were raised to never enter their parent's bedroom at night. Likely this is because they weren't always home at night--which scares me, wondering how old Paige and Henry were when P&E started leaving them home alone at night. Didn't the kids ever have nightmares and seek comfort from their parents? What if they wet the bed and weren't sure what to do? What if they were sick and needed help from one of their parents? (I'm mentally going through the list of reasons my kids came into our room at night).

 

I understand that the kids are old enough to take care of themselves now, but at least Paige knows that P&E's style of parenting is not typical. She told her mom, "You guys take care of each other. More than us." She told her mother that it didn't bother her, but it must. Maybe that's why it was so easy for her to embrace Pastor Tim and his church.

[DrSpaceman]

I don't think Tim is a spy or a crook, just the kind of religious leader I run into a lot and rarely like-- good-looking, charismatic, full of themselves, adoring wives, used to being the center of attention, offering spiritual guidance while taking your money every chance they get.  

 

I found the Kimmie scene really interesting whereas I find the Martha/Clark sex scenes really squicky.  Between Kim's hair, clothes, hormones and boom box, I was so transported back to me as a teen.  I felt bad for Philip because he clearly has qualms, given Paige's age.  But I don't find their scenes "look away" gross and I'm anxious to see more.

I also find the Martha/Clark scenes rather.....icky, I guess. Part of that is just Martha. She isn't unattractive, but then nothing about her screams "hot sex scene" either. Its like watching your mom or your older sister in a sex scene, which makes it super creepy.

He played that scene so well in the scene with Kim. He had a perfect careful, detached persona where he knew he had to make it through the situation but at the same time he also knew he couldn't take it too far. Its like he a was afraid of what might happen but couldn't let that show.

The odd thing is while the viewers know this is due to him being uncomfortable with it all and finding the whole thing cringeworthy due to her age, its the kind of detached non-interest from an older man that would likely just make Kim want him all the more.

[RedHawk]

Yes, but it always bothered me that the kids were raised to never enter their parent's bedroom at night. ... Didn't the kids ever have nightmares and seek comfort from their parents?

 

 

Never bothered me at all. It showed me an important detail of their lives, how they set things up so that the kids wouldn't find out they weren't home (or more likely that one of the parents wasn't home) at night with no explanation. "Out of town on business" only goes so far and doesn't cover emergency situations like Elizabeth having to go help Philip removed Annalise's body. That little detail of how they "trained" the kids to take care of each other rather than knock on their door was fascinating and gave me insight into their necessary parenting practices and the closeness between Paige and Henry. 

 

The odd thing is while the viewers know this is due to him being uncomfortable with it all and finding the whole thing cringeworthy due to her age, its the kind of detached non-interest from an older man that would likely just make Kim want him all the more.

 

 

Oh yeah. Usually that type of older guy, while at first seeming kinda cool, also gave off a desperate vibe and got pushy too soon so most girls ended up thinking he was a creep. A guy like "Jim" who could keep his distance would be very attractive to a "Kimmie".

Edited February 24, 2015 by RedHawk

[sistermagpie]

Never bothered me at all. It showed me an important detail of their lives, how they set things up so that the kids wouldn't find out they weren't home (or more likely that one of the parents wasn't home) at night with no explanation.

 

 

I get that impression too--it was a great, dark little moment to hear that there's this big rule about not going into the room which is so unnatural and cold with little kids. But I get the impression that in the past if they were both out they'd have babysitters (that isn't happening now because Paige is babysitting age) and otherwise, if they sneak out at night, they would at least try to do it one at a time. Otherwise it's just a huge risk leaving the kids absolutely at home in the house. So many things could happen to get them all in trouble or something bad could happen to kids who were very young. Too risky even just for practical reasons. Also plenty of times one or both parents might be home but in the laundry room rather than in bed. That's where Elizabeth was the first time Paige broke the rule.

 

A guy like "Jim" who could keep his distance would be very attractive to a "Kimmie".

 

 

Exactly--just as Clark is the uptight nerd who's a bad boy in bed for Martha, Jim is the teenage fantasy version of this guy. He doesn't really want anything from her sexually, so he doesn't act like the type of guy who really picks up teenagers.

[BW Manilowe]

I get that impression too--it was a great, dark little moment to hear that there's this big rule about not going into the room which is so unnatural and cold with little kids. But I get the impression that in the past if they were both out they'd have babysitters (that isn't happening now because Paige is babysitting age) and otherwise, if they sneak out at night, they would at least try to do it one at a time. Otherwise it's just a huge risk leaving the kids absolutely at home in the house. So many things could happen to get them all in trouble or something bad could happen to kids who were very young. Too risky even just for practical reasons. Also plenty of times one or both parents might be home but in the laundry room rather than in bed. That's where Elizabeth was the first time Paige broke the rule.

Exactly--just as Clark is the uptight nerd who's a bad boy in bed for Martha, Jim is the teenage fantasy version of this guy. He doesn't really want anything from her sexually, so he doesn't act like the type of guy who really picks up teenagers.

Responding to the bolded. Your impression about hiring a babysitter to stay with Paige & Henry if they had some espionage to deal with is spot on.

Elizabeth &/or Philip mentions a babysitter is staying with the kids more than once in at least S1 (I can't remember specific eps anymore--but I'm pretty sure it was most/all of the at least S1 eps where they left from home late in the afternoon/at night to do a mission together; during the day they tended to leave the kids to sit for themselves).

I think we even see 1 of the babysitters in at least 1 ep (I think she was the standard teenage neighbor girl babysitter, as I remember), & I remember Elizabeth giving the standard "You be good for the sitter" warning, primarily to Paige as I remember, as they're leaving the house in 1 ep. They claim they're going out for dinner, to a movie, or a generic "date night" usually.

I said, prior to arriving here (arriving at this site), that they probably left the kids with a sitter at night so, hopefully, they'll have someone to take care of them/take them in--at least temporarily--if Philip & Elizabeth are captured or killed during a nighttime mission (since being alone at night is often scarier, &/or more problematic, for kids). I still stand by that.

But now I'm wondering why they tend to leave the kids without a sitter if they have to go somewhere when the kids are home during the daytime (like when they got kidnapped in S2 & tortured by Claudia & other agents). If Philip & Elizabeth are captured or killed during the daytime, the kids will need someone to stay with, at least temporarily, just like they would if something happened at night.

[PinkRibbons]

I remember in Season 2 right after the Connor Family Massacre, Philip and Elizabeth got very nervous about leaving the kids alone. Then in one episode (actually I think the one where Paige rides a bus to a different state) they had to both be on a mission, and Philip mentioned that The Centre was going to have someone watching the kids. Not close enough for the kids or parents to see, but close. Helps explain how Elizabeth's "Aunt" had her house and personality down when Paige got there -- she was probably being tailed.

 

I just sort of assumed that The Centre is aware of when Philip and Elizabeth are working, and in certain situations (probably more when the kids were younger) have eyes on the children while their parents work.

[DrSpaceman]

I get that impression too--it was a great, dark little moment to hear that there's this big rule about not going into the room which is so unnatural and cold with little kids. But I get the impression that in the past if they were both out they'd have babysitters (that isn't happening now because Paige is babysitting age) and otherwise, if they sneak out at night, they would at least try to do it one at a time. Otherwise it's just a huge risk leaving the kids absolutely at home in the house. So many things could happen to get them all in trouble or something bad could happen to kids who were very young. Too risky even just for practical reasons. Also plenty of times one or both parents might be home but in the laundry room rather than in bed. That's where Elizabeth was the first time Paige broke the rule.

 

 

Exactly--just as Clark is the uptight nerd who's a bad boy in bed for Martha, Jim is the teenage fantasy version of this guy. He doesn't really want anything from her sexually, so he doesn't act like the type of guy who really picks up teenagers.

 

 

This is actually what impresses me the most about Phillip as a spy.  As the show started I was rather blah about him, but as it has progressed, I am more and more impressed by his abilities, even if he is on the other side.  I have always found him much more able to play the "role" needed in this scenarios than Elizabeth.  He plays clark and now Jim so perfectly.  He seems to take on his characters and various personalities much easier than Elizabeth

 

Of course now it comes down to a question of how much of that is acting ability of the actor/actress and how much of it is just how we are supposed to view Phillip and Elizabeth as characters.  Most of it I think is how it is written and not the acting, but part of it is certainly just a great job by Matthew Rhys. 

[sistermagpie]

Of course now it comes down to a question of how much of that is acting ability of the actor/actress and how much of it is just how we are supposed to view Phillip and Elizabeth as characters.  Most of it I think is how it is written and not the acting, but part of it is certainly just a great job by Matthew Rhys.

 

 

Answering in the Philip thread...

[millennium]

I honestly never heard of Yaz(Yazoo) before. I know I've heard that "Don't Go" song before but now listening to that and "Only You", I'm hooked! Thank you show!

 

Check out "Nobody's Diary" by Yaz.    My favorite by them.

 

What a pity they broke up so early on.   A tragedy compounded by Vince Clark going on to form Erasure (whose music I loathe).

 

I was in college in the early 80s and friendly with some people who dabbled in EST.   I liked them but whenever they talked about EST they sounded like assholes, so I applauded too when Stan called the EST guy an asshole.

 

The EST guy reminded me of Jared Padlecki from Supernatural, like it could have been his older brother. 

Edited March 1, 2015 by millennium

[millennium]

This is actually what impresses me the most about Phillip as a spy.  As the show started I was rather blah about him, but as it has progressed, I am more and more impressed by his abilities, even if he is on the other side.  I have always found him much more able to play the "role" needed in this scenarios than Elizabeth.  He plays clark and now Jim so perfectly.  He seems to take on his characters and various personalities much easier than Elizabeth

 

Of course now it comes down to a question of how much of that is acting ability of the actor/actress and how much of it is just how we are supposed to view Phillip and Elizabeth as characters.  Most of it I think is how it is written and not the acting, but part of it is certainly just a great job by Matthew Rhys. 

 

Matthew Rhys makes you pay attention when he's on the screen.   I used to empathize with Philip as a guy who was second-guessing the path he'd chosen, undermined by the siren song of America.   But after that suitcase scene ... and the icy way he extracted Elizabeth's tooth ... and now the pedophilia storyline ... I'm starting to think "Philip at home" is as much a role as Clark or any of his other guises.

[lucindabelle]

I was a HS senior in 1982. Did not discover has until college radio.nit was not mainstream and jimmy doesn't seem like a new wave girl and neither does Paige, it should be all roe speed wagon and the Gogol. And a lot of 70 s radios as still constantly getting AirPlay.

Sometimes it's kind of obvious the writers of the show were not there and are consulting books to get details right, I ont mean the show runner but the scriptwriters. Has? I doubt it. I bought a U2 album my first year in college, Duran duran were just coming in. And why no mention of mtv??? It was hip and new. And yay... Was not on it!!!!! That's how we even heard most new groups.., the Gogos had been on snow but adam any etc were all mtv, flock of seagulls etc. no hazel!!!

A little thing but bugs.

Loves baby soft is so blatantly oral sex that my jaw dropped. God I remember that heavy eyeliner though.

[sistermagpie]

Sometimes it's kind of obvious the writers of the show were not there and are consulting books to get details right, I ont mean the show runner but the scriptwriters. Has? I doubt it. I bought a U2 album my first year in college, Duran duran were just coming in. And why no mention of mtv??? It was hip and new. And yay... Was not on it!!!!! That's how we even heard most new groups.., the Gogos had been on snow but adam any etc were all mtv, flock of seagulls etc. no hazel!!!

 

 

Many of them were there and are basing this on their lives--the scriptwriter of this ep is Henry's age and his sister was Paige's and this was her favorite. Unfamiliarity with these bands might just come down to where you grew up. If you were near a place where they had college radio or alternative stations, you might be listening to them. Not all high schools were the same--music-wise they were often wildly different. Paige is near a city. There's not much reason to mention MTV since it's not a show about pop culture in the 80s. We just know it's there because it was there.

Edited March 1, 2015 by sistermagpie

[lucindabelle]

I'm mentioning mtv because the only way we found out about new music was mtv. That's why the British invasion got huge. It's why Duran duran broke. Adam ant. A flock o seagulls. Altered images. Human league. All in one year. Mtv had British music in rotation. Anyone who was a teen then would know that. MTV a was HUGE. It was enormous. Maybe someone a few years younger as you just said the scriptwriter was wouldn't remember what a HUGE change it as. I remember sitting at my best friends house and seeing "video killed the radio star" and the jolt we all got. Buggles.

I live outside of NYC. I was a college DJ in 83. The scriptwriter might be misremembering what year she heard yaz. Yaz was not mainstream. Someone Henry's age in 1982 just doesnt have the same experience as someone my age in 1982.

For example, I was 10 in 1975. Does that make me qualified to write about what high school kids were thinking about then? Nope. My brothers were older, but I am not them, dimly have a sense of what they were doing but some of he nuances would be missing.

Lots of people last episode said they'd never heard of yaz. That's accurate. Yaz got a little bigger in the MID 80s, not when the record was brand new. That smacked to me of "looked up on wiki when album came out."

You may buy it, but I don't. It's a small thing but it takes me out a bit. I know they work hard to get things right but sometimes I think they work too hard. They had Paige saying all the kids loved he album..l that just seems off to me.

Still wondering about then accent thing.

[sistermagpie]

I'm mentioning mtv because the only way we found out about new music was mtv.

 

 

Oh, definitely. I just meant that so we don't hear anybody talking about how exactly they hear about new music. The closest we got was Paige saying that everyone at school was talking about this album--which in this case I randomly happen to know wasn't a line in the script but something ad-libbed by Holly Taylor when the director told her to just babble happily about the album and she obviously didn't have any clue about the meaning of it. A real kid that age at that time, if they knew who Yaz was, would be far more impressed at their dad knowing about it. Paige reacted to it as if it was just the #1 hit at the time. If we were listening to kids at school talking about music I'd expect MTV to be central (or just kids talking in general because MTV was pretty omnipresent). But they're not usually talking about that sort of thing on the show. Henry's more into movies than music and he's the one who's gotten most of the pop culture references.

 

But I do agree that the writer could have just remembered his sister being into Yaz and looked up the album and thinking 1982 was the right year when really it was a bit later. I'm the same age as Paige and loved that album, but I couldn't tell you exactly what year it was that I bought it. 1982 seems a bit early for it to me. I do think they've tended to associate Paige with less mainstream music than she'd be into--like when she was listening to the radio and they had her listening to a song that was technically out by then, but would have been an import still and wasn't yet widely popular because it was in Valley Girl. Given that she's this very preppy girl who's into her church group rather than a kid who seems specifically interested in music she probably wouldn't be listening to this. So it's true, I don't think they are being all that accurate with the music in terms of what girls who aren't specifically into following a certain kind of music would be listening to at that place in time. Paige seems to be making a point of trying to be into more important things than pop culture, and her clothing and church interest identifies her as that even more, so you're absolutely right that she should *not* be also up on bands that weren't completely mainstream. Possibly she might even not like all of them if her church group is judgy about that stuff. And Kimmie, while not as square as Paige, doesn't seem to be really into this stuff either.

 

Basically, they're just not correctly using music to characterize these girls, you're right. Music is often really central to the way kids define themselves at that age and while Paige could certainly like some music that didn't scream "church youth group" she shouldn't be just casually listening to stuff like this like everyone is.

 

This led to a funny conversation with a friend of mine who was also in my (and Paige's) year since her high school was completely out of it on all this stuff. We originally met in college and she talked about how it was a real thing for her to feel like there was all this "cool music" she wasn't listening to--despite also watching MTV, of course.

Edited March 1, 2015 by sistermagpie

[Emme]

I'm mentioning mtv because the only way we found out about new music was mtv. That's why the British invasion got huge. It's why Duran duran broke. Adam ant. A flock o seagulls. Altered images. Human league. All in one year. Mtv had British music in rotation. Anyone who was a teen then would know that. MTV a was HUGE. It was enormous. Maybe someone a few years younger as you just said the scriptwriter was wouldn't remember what a HUGE change it as. I remember sitting at my best friends house and seeing "video killed the radio star" and the jolt we all got. Buggles.

I live outside of NYC. I was a college DJ in 83. The scriptwriter might be misremembering what year she heard yaz. Yaz was not mainstream. Someone Henry's age in 1982 just doesnt have the same experience as someone my age in 1982.

For example, I was 10 in 1975. Does that make me qualified to write about what high school kids were thinking about then? Nope. My brothers were older, but I am not them, dimly have a sense of what they were doing but some of he nuances would be missing.

Lots of people last episode said they'd never heard of yaz. That's accurate. Yaz got a little bigger in the MID 80s, not when the record was brand new. That smacked to me of "looked up on wiki when album came out."

You may buy it, but I don't. It's a small thing but it takes me out a bit. I know they work hard to get things right but sometimes I think they work too hard. They had Paige saying all the kids loved he album..l that just seems off to me.

Still wondering about then accent thing.

Anyone here know when WHFS started broadcasting in the DC area? They were a great alternative station broadcasting out of Annapolis. My husband and his friend went to the studios one day and ended up hanging with one of the main DJs (Niecy). Anyhow, if WHFS was around in '82, they certainly would have been playing Yaz. Speaking of Yaz, the album "Alf" by Alison Moyet was THE soundtrack to a painful breakup of mine... "All Cried Out," "Invisible." Great songs, and perfect for wallowing in my sorrow.

[lucindabelle]

Yes great album 1985, no?

[Roseanna]

Stan has begun to suspect that Zinaida isn't a genuine defector because the way she talks.  

I rather found suspicious what she talks. She is too eager and too vague and therefore she exaggerates. In the former episode (3) she even said that bread is lacking in the Soviet Union. As far as I know, there were two items that always were in every village shop: bread and vodka (until Gorbatshow). 

Maybe it was due to the ignorance of the screenwriters - or that they presumed the audience to be ignorant?

This is a genuine political joke from Soviet Estonia: "What is the greatest animal in the world?" "The Estonian swine. Its head and legs are in Estonia under the disk, its ass is in Moscow on the disk." 

[Higgins]

On ‎2‎/‎19‎/‎2015 at 10:54 AM, SailorGirl said:

Yaz -- Only You -- the best song on that album -- when he gave it to her I was hoping we would hear it and was disappointed when we heard "Don't Go" in the house -- I was so excited at the end when they played it!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9_HrktOwrk

 

Speaking as a 80s teen who grew up in the DC area (17 years old at my 1985 HS graduation) as icky as that last scene may have been for some of you, it was actually pretty spot on and I totally related. When we were going out, there were always older guys around -- both in and out of the bars -- they were just part of the scene. With that wig, Philip could have easily gotten away with telling her he was in his late 20s and she would have bought it -- no matter how unrealistic it may be for us to imagine that, an 18 year old girl who was raised in the upper middle class suburbs would have no reason to imagine he was lying.

And when I was 18 and going out in Georgetown (and trying to get into 21 bars in Maryland even though I could drink in DC at 18) I knew everything and could handle every situation and any guy that came along -- there was no telling me otherwise. Especially outside the college bars in Maryland, it was not uncommon for a guy to be hanging around outside to offer fake IDs to the underagers who got turned away -- although typically, they were doing it to make money. 

The whole dancing on the monument/official building steps with a boom box playing a cassette of the best tunes-- been there, done that!  And let's just say that one memorial in particular was the site of an event that all young women go through for the first time ever sooner or later . . .  

 

All in all, from the perspective of someone who was that girl in the 1980s, even though it is totally creepy what Philip is trying to do, they are portraying her role really spot on for an 80s late teenager. 

DC and Georgetown in the 80s -- there was nothing like it, and I loved every minute of it, even though it would take 3 hours to get ready because it took forever to crimp my long hair and decide which sweater dress and rhinestone jewelry to wear! :-D 

Grew up in Mclean and graduated in 87. I loved it!