S10.E13: Halt And Catch Fire

[DittyDotDot]

I am saying that I think the showrunners are taking pains to keep them apart to avoid dealing with it one way or the other. Again my comment was not directed at Destiel leaning viewers nor do I think they are bullies.

 

I wasn't saying all Destiel leaning viewers were bullies, but there was some bullying of the writers last year to write a Destiel storyline, which, IMO, led to Cass and Dean being more separated. I was just saying that I don't think this is what's happening right now. It actually makes more sense to me that Dean would be isolating himself from Cass and Sam would be reaching out to Cass to find a solution.

Edited February 11, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

Oh I am so dumb lol. I was thinking about the SPN episode from s4 which I barely remember too. Lol

I wasn't saying all Destiel leaning viewers were bullies, but there was some bullying of the writers last year to write a Destiel storyline, which, IMO, led to Cass and Dean being more separated. I was just saying that I don't think this is what's happening right now. It actually makes more sense to me that Dean would be isolating himself from Cass and Sam would be reaching out to Cass to find a solution.

I still need some confirmation that Dean is voluntarily distancing himself from Cas. Sorry just my pet peeve.

[Demented Daisy]

Something else that annoyed me.  Dean apologizing for "dragging" Sam away from college.

 

They seem to have repeated this so often that even TPTB believe that's what happened.  Just once, I'd like Sam to say, "Dean, I left college because my girlfriend was murdered and I needed to find her killer.  I never went back by my own choice."

 

*sigh*  But that will never happen because they love to take away Sam's agency, for some reason.

[catrox14]

Something else that annoyed me.  Dean apologizing for "dragging" Sam away from college.

 

They seem to have repeated this so often that even TPTB believe that's what happened.  Just once, I'd like Sam to say, "Dean, I left college because my girlfriend was murdered and I needed to find her killer.  I never went back by my own choice."

 

*sigh*  But that will never happen because they love to take away Sam's agency, for some reason.

I don't think it's because they are are taking away Sam's agency in this case. IMO everything in this episode was to set up jokes about Dean's horn dog status and being a luddite and a creeper because the writers put the jokes first and they twisted everything to get to their punchlines. It's like I was watching an alternate universe episode of really bad fanfiction written by acolytes of E. L. James.

[Demented Daisy]

Changed my mind -- took it to the Bitterness thread instead.

Edited February 11, 2015 by Demented Daisy

[AwesomO4000]

And another thing, why is Dean getting updates on what Cas is doing via Sam?

 Actually - and this is sort of weird when I think about it, but somehow still true - I think it's because Castiel is away and communicating via telephone. This in a weird way is sort of keeping in tune with history, I believe. I found it somewhat odd, but interesting that even in the seasons where Castiel is at odds with Sam, when Castiel calls them, he often calls Sam just as much as he does Dean, if not more so. I believe this happened starting at the beginning of season 5 (For example, when Sam and Dean were in the hospital with Bobby at the begining of "Good God, Y'All" Castiel called Sam on the phone to ask where they were so he could come meet them. The only times I remember offhand that he called Dean first were in "The End" and "Two Minutes to Midnight.") And I think it's because Sam calls Castiel, so Cas, with his weird ways, calls Sam back and that has just become the main way that he and Sam communicate. It used to be when Castiel wanted to talk to Dean, he didn't bother with the phone, he'd just pop in on Dean wherever - car, hotel room, bathroom, etc. - and say "hello, Dean." But now that Castiel can't just pop in anymore, he hasn't become used to that yet.

 

Or Dean may be one of those people who doesn't like to talk to people on the phone (I can relate, because I don't like it much myself) and/or becomes distracted while doing so (something that also happens to me if it isn't a work phone call) if Cas senses this, he might just find it easier to talk to Sam on the phone and Dean in person. We don't see Cas very much popping in and saying "hello, Sam" - there was the one time in season 7 when he came when Sam called, but usually he just pops in on Dean. So I just think that it's what Cas does: when he communicates in person, it's usually with Dean, when he has to communicate via phone, it's just as often with Sam as it is Dean. Unless I'm remembering wrong, that's typically the way it has been since at least early season 5. (I even think one time Cas called either Sam or Bobby to find out where Dean was so he could pop in on him rather than call him first - I think it was "Free to Be...")

 

Quite possibly giving the show too much credit, but I thought all of this was hinting that Dean is still having problems with self control that are emerging in other ways. Like trying to squeeze part of a balloon, and having the rest of it expand to compensate. So he keeps a lid on wrath for once, but lust and gluttony get out of control. The fact that it was so blatant and so out of character that Sam noticed it seemed like a signal to me that we, the audience, were also supposed to notice it.

 

I was wondering the same thing. Like maybe this was supposed to be more Dean throwing spaghetti (or ramen in this case - heh) at the wall and hoping it would stick / do the trick to appease the mark. Denying himself food and drink didn't work, so maybe letting it go all out in the other direction might work? I think Sam did seem to say something like "pull yourself together" implying that Dean had been having control issues. But I guess having a little gluttony and horn-dog tendencies is better than rage and violence issues, so... good job, Dean?

[SueB]

It took me a second watch to get a bead on this one. I think I've come to a POV that is close to what Latvernian Diplomat was saying...with a twist.

 

First let me say, I did not particularly like many parts of this episode.  But I think it was less "horrible writers" and more of a "swing and a miss" (that's a baseball term for non-baseball people...means they tried for something and didn't get it).  Let me 'splain:

 

Horror Trope Homage/Parody ala Cabin In The Woods

Latvernian Diplomat called it.  This was a direct rip-off of a weaksauce Horror Movie. If you look at the "plot" and "cast" of this movie-within-a-TV-show you can see all the tropes:

- I Know What You Did Last Summer basic plot

- College Kids in a small midwestern college

- The Frat Boys: drink too much, random hookups at the drop of a hat, assholes (with a Texting PSA thrown in).  Cliches all the way.

- The Blond "Slut" dies -- of course she dies. She was sleeping with her TA.  They even gave a shoutout by saying #slut.

- The Good Girl lives. She always lives.

Now at about the halfway point (just after Dean hands her a tissue and tosses the box - LOL), they subvert the ENTIRE THING. When Dean starts talking to her, she literally becomes less trope-y and more of a real character. And it turns back into "Supernatural" vice faux movie.

My verdict:  If I had to watch it twice to figure it out and this is not already all over the internet (I haven't seen this written up this way yet), then YOUR DOING THE HOMAGE/PARODY WRONG. Plus, I HATE the tropes they use.

The guilty: I actually blame John Showalter, the director, a bit more than Charmelo/Snyder.  Maybe if they had made the Blonde's death music with a little more emphasis on a screeching violin the gag would have been more obvious.

 

Dean off the Deep End

Again I agree with Latvernian Diplomat.  I think they were trying to show Dean overcompensating again.  He was overcompensating in three ways:

- Overeating (Guy Norman Bee was the one who put this feature in 10.9 and said "overcompensating subtext" was a reasonable interpretation)

- Lusting after college co-eds like he couldn't control himself

- Acting dumb

It was back to "fake it" til you make it. He was trying to hard to be a goof.  And it was written that way IMO. Again, this stopped at the halfway point as well.

My verdict: Bleech.  It came across as bad writing and bad directing.  Unlike 10.9 where Dean hulked out at the end, it didn't happen.  That's kind of a victory for Dean but it makes the "overcompensating" less obvious.

The guilty: Again I'm going with Showalter but...*gasp* ...I'm also going to put some of this on Jensen.  The food out of the mouth schtick was easily interpreted as just a cheap laugh.  

 

Dean the therapist

THIS I liked.  Dean started off with his usual "whiskey and denial" response. And then he changed, mid-sentence.  Because it wasn't about him and he's getting used to being honest.  Rather than the quip, he told the truth "I do my best to make things right".  This is what the girl actually needed to hear.  And by being honest with her, he was practicing that. He was helping her.  Not surprisingly, it felt good I think and he tried it again with Andrew.  With Andrew the parallels were pretty obvious to everyone but I'm okay with that.  We can only take so much of Dean just pouring his heart out. So, speaking truth to Andrew in a way that Dean understood it made sense.  It didn't work as well this time, but listening to Courey talk Andrew into "moving on", also helped Dean.

My Verdict: Real growth for Dean, I liked it. 

The kudos go to: The writers for the mid-sentence twist and Jensen for selling the turn-around.

 

Dean's new new ...no really, this is the NEW approach to the Mark of Cain

Most people have said this: he's going to accept that having the Mark is part of him and just keep fighting it's affect for as long and as hard as he can. He's not going to go into "standby" mode like he's been for the past few weeks.  Helping people is helping him.  It's a very healthy mental attitude coming from Dean.  I think they've done a good job of showing him trying on a variety of different solutions and this one feels right.  A helluva lot better than The Cleanse Plan or The Hiding Plan.  

My Verdict: Worked for me.  Dialog was a bit clunky but I think the big message generally came across. And hopefully we won't see anymore of Dean "faking it".  I don't think he's thinking about what happens when he dies. He just wants to do as much good as he can for now.

The kudos go to: Jensen for making it work and Carver for the arc.  

 

Other Bits and Bobs:

- I think anyone who has eaten in a college dorm for the first time could relate to Dean's initial food reaction ...especially the frozen yogurt.  I liked that.

- Christine. Hee.

- Sam got to be the one to save the day and he wasn't knocked unconscious or choked!

- I like that Sam and Cas are strategizing and keeping in contact so often.  This is about others helping Dean. I'm good with that.

Edited February 12, 2015 by SueB

[rue721]

Maybe if they had made the Blonde's death music with a little more emphasis on a screeching violin the gag would have been more obvious.

 

I think they tried to make it obvious that her death was supposed to be a bit of a joke. They had her turning purple and her tongue sticking out, etc. The frat boy's death was really OTT, too, when his head blew up from the loud music. I think the fundamental problem was that the gags just weren't funny enough.

 

They maybe should have ripped off Scream instead. I mean, why not just go ahead and rip off a rip off, probably would have taken it from being just a copy to being more of a parody. Though I actually think that this show doesn't do "broad" humor very well. Though I don't really know why it doesn't work better.

 

Anyway, IA that the direction was really bad on this one. And Sam's hair. I forgot to mention it before, but Sam's hair...I literally started laughing when I saw the first scene. He had anchor woman hair. It's hairsprayed into a helmet and everything. WUT.

[7kstar]

Well I erased it off the DVR, I needed space and I just didn't like enough to keep it.

 

although most hate the last speech with Dean and Sam it wasn't awful for me.  I think Dean's idea was sound.  I need to be at peace and work to help people.  I don't think he's against a cure if one can be found, but the waiting and hoping is driving him mad.  I can get that.

 

The food stuff.. my first thought, he's trying to eat everything he loves because when he really had the mark take over, he no longer cared about food.  So I saw the food as comfort and Dean acting crazy when he's at a college makes sense to me in this way.  He didn't go and many who don't get that degree feel like they don't belong and aren't smart enough.  Dean's never acknowledged his smarts anyway.

 

so this one is a mixed bag.  some parts okay and some really not.  I liked the opening...it was really strong.

 

I guess my handwave was that Dean trying to cover up too hard and tried to find the little things he use to love.  I agree it felt like fake it till you make it.  Sam eye rolls were because his brother wasn't fooling him for one instant.  At least my one constant is I like Sam this season.  His hair...that's a whole different story.  lol.

[mertensia]

To me Dean's "sorry I dragged you away from college" was more of an acknowledgement that Sam had lots-or could have had lots; we don't know when he and Jess got together- of dates and had fun than a "sorry I fucked your life over Sam" comment.

[Pete Martell]

I think they tried to make it obvious that her death was supposed to be a bit of a joke. They had her turning purple and her tongue sticking out, etc. The frat boy's death was really OTT, too, when his head blew up from the loud music. I think the fundamental problem was that the gags just weren't funny enough.

 

I don't know if they were supposed to be funny, as much as the direction made them that way. I know the car driving into the credits was a little funny, but even then, the start of that scene (with the "TRINI") did get to me, as did the start of the blonde girl getting the DMs from a stranger. In both cases the scenes just went on way too long. And the music one didn't work for me because we didn't hear the music go up. 

 

What I would have done was to have not had any music in the scene, and only he was hearing the music, and we'd see him progressively get more and more crippled from the pain until the eyes/ears/blood/etc.

 

The odd thing is that, even if this also went on too long, I thought the scene of the guy crashing into the pole and then the car catching on fire actually was frightening.

[Demented Daisy]

To me Dean's "sorry I dragged you away from college" was more of an acknowledgement that Sam had lots-or could have had lots; we don't know when he and Jess got together- of dates and had fun than a "sorry I fucked your life over Sam" comment.

 

That's not my point.  Joke, sincere apology, whatever.  The point is, they love to bring it up, but it's simply not true.  

 

Obviously, my sense of humor is radically different from TPTB.  I don't find this funny, nor do I find it funny every time they say, "Sam hit a dog."

[rue721]

I don't know if they were supposed to be funny, as much as the direction made them that way. I know the car driving into the credits was a little funny, but even then, the start of that scene (with the "TRINI") did get to me, as did the start of the blonde girl getting the DMs from a stranger. In both cases the scenes just went on way too long. And the music one didn't work for me because we didn't hear the music go up. 

 

I think that the episode was aiming at a sort of Scream-esque satire but just ended up copying those 90s teen horror movies instead of spoofing them. And why SPN thought they should do a spoof of 20-year-old B-movies anyway, Idk?

 

The way the blond girl was taking a ton of duck-lip selfies, was getting her grades by banging her TA instead of studying, and yanked the adapter cable out of her laptop but was freaked when the computer didn't immediately shut off, all made me think that the tone that that scene was going for was "arch." Or maybe "satirical." Same thing with the frat boy who exploded from his apparently too-loud music. I mean, they were killed for being a slut and a douchebag respectively, I guess?

 

I didn't think any of the deaths were supposed to be scary, sad or horrible until the ghost!husband's death -- which actually was pretty scary, sad and horrible imo. So while I think the direction sucked, I think the suckiness of the episode was a gestalt of suckiness and rather than just (or even primarily) directorial suckiness.

 

Like SueB said, I think this was a swing and a miss. I get what they were going for, and it seemed like everyone (directors, writers, whoever) were on the same page about what they were going for, too. But it just didn't work. I think they needed to go even snarkier/arch in the first half to make it clear that it was a satire, and then needed to go much more naturalistic in the second half to make it clear that now it was a (paranormal) drama. (It seemed like that's what they were trying to do, they just didn't get to their marks somehow imo). It ended up being too muddled imo. But I do appreciate that at least it seemed like they were trying, even if they didn't get there.

 

So wait, *what* did that last talk at the end mean?

[supposebly]

I didn't even get that this was supposed to be satirical, a rip-off or homage of whatever was in style in the 90s. I never saw those movies. The girl's death just felt a little overdone, stupid and badly acted and the guy's death by speaker wasn't anything to write home about after My Bloody Valentine or Wishful Thinking.

 

To me, it just all looked like a completely inconsistent episode with Sam and Dean behaving like their own caricatures. And a hallmark solution to the ghost. I was hoping for something actually clever since the idea of an internet ghost was, although not original, at least new in this show. I didn't care much about the wife, the ghost, or the teenagers. Were they teenagers? Weren't they in college? When does college start in the US? How did the ghost even know who they were?

 

I just had this overwhelming feeling of embarrassment. Fremdschaemen. I think it's called second-hand embarrassment in English? For JA and JP, and a little for myself for still watching.

 

And this after a rather good episode last week. I'm really hanging on to a thread with Supernatural.

[rue721]

I didn't even get that this was supposed to be satirical, a rip-off or homage of whatever was in style in the 90s. I never saw those movies. The girl's death just felt a little overdone, stupid and badly acted and the guy's death by speaker wasn't anything to write home about after My Bloody Valentine or Wishful Thinking.

 

The thing with TRINI was *almost* an urban legend that I've actually heard before, in that the GPS guided the driver to his death. But whenever I've heard that story, it's ended much more stupidly, with someone listening to their GPS when it told them to drive off a cliff or something.

 

I was thinking that the show was aiming for "throwback" somehow when I saw the redhead's makeup when she first meets Dean and Sam (she looked to me like she was trying out for a role in The Craft. Though maybe that was on accident?!) and when Dean was talking about Christine and calling himself Gen X. But when they showed all the kids were all in the car texting and fooling around, that was a pretty direct ripoff from I Know What You Did Last Summer. I mean, the whole first half of the episode was very 90s Teen Slasher. 90s especially because the tone was kind of funny and perky rather than actually scary. Much more Scream rather than Texas Chainsaw Massacre.

 

So that was probably coloring my view of the deaths. I think they were supposed to be gory and stupid. Like dumbass versions of Final Destination. Did you ever see that? I actually liked the deaths in that movie because they were very Rube Goldberg, but there was this one death in particular, where the person is in the bathroom and finally thinks he's safe, but then he somehow falls toward the bathtub and the clothesline that's across the top of the tub wraps around his through and strangles him. Really similarly to the adapter cable thing, but cleverer. I can't imagine that death-by-moderately-loud-WiFi-speakers was legitimately supposed to be scary or even interesting?

 

Were they teenagers? Weren't they in college? When does college start in the US? How did the ghost even know who they were?

 

I would think they were teenagers? Or if not, then not long past being teenagers. College-age in the US is approx. age 17-22. That's why it was kind of slimy (imo) to see Dean slobbering over the college girls. He's twice their age.

 

But no idea about how the ghost knew who they were!

 

I just had this overwhelming feeling of embarrassment. Fremdschaemen. I think it's called second-hand embarrassment in English? For JA and JP, and a little for myself for still watching.

 

This made me laugh. I didn't feel the intense second-hand embarrassment with this episode in particular, but I know exactly what you mean. There are a bunch of episodes I've felt that about. The most recent was probably There's No Place Like Home.

[supposebly]

 

I think they were supposed to be gory and stupid. Like dumbass versions of Final Destination. Did you ever see that?

I just know these movies exist, that's all.

 

This show has done gory and stupid and ridiculous deaths many times. For example the one with Not!James Dean's car in Fallen Idols. Or the razorblades in It's the Great Pumpkin. Or when Dean ran over the invisible guy in Wishful Thinking although I'm not sure he died. If I had the time, I could probably make a very long list and you guys could play it out in a game of "what's the stupidest one" in the games thread.

 

This show is built on urban legends and stupid deaths. It's its bread and butter, I think. So, doing what these movies used to do, is....kinda  redundant? And done so much better many times before. Never mind that those movies seemed rather lame. JMO

Edited February 13, 2015 by supposebly

[catrox14]

The razor blades and the couple that ate each other in My Bloody Valentine were so disgustingly awesome

 

I cannot lie. I love the Final Destination movies.

Edited February 13, 2015 by catrox14

[rue721]

This show is built on urban legends and stupid deaths. It's its bread and butter, I think. So, doing what these movies used to do, is....kinda  redundant? And done so much better many times before. Never mind that those movies seemed rather lame. JMO

 

I agree, in that I also don't know why they decided to do a sorta/kinda spoof of decades old B-movies, but hey, for whatever reason I guess they did.

 

I don't think it's the worst concept they've ever come up with, though. I actually think it could have been fun. If they were trying to spoof 90s teen horror, it also at least makes *more* sense that they used the internet/computers as a boogeyman. I don't remember if ~technology~ was ever a MotW on Buffy, but if it wasn't, it might as well have been -- the concept fits right in imo. Throwing in all that stuff about how the 90s were a looooong time ago now and the leads on this show are ~old~ also makes some sense if they were trying to spoof 90s movies in this episode, imo.

 

My issue is more with the execution. I mean, I got that it was a rip off of those movies, but I didn't get that it was actually a spoof, because it wasn't funny and didn't seem at all self-aware. The tone was wrong and it wasn't clever enough. The best thing about those movies in the first place imo was that they were sort of satirical in their own right, like the B-movie horror version of Heathers. This episode didn't have any of that.

 

I actually wish they'd been able to go completely old school WB with this episode and have it feel like Buffy in the first half and Felicity in the second -- and I think that's actually what they were trying to do! But they couldn't actually get there, for whatever reason.

 

I cannot lie. I love the Final Destination movies.

 

Me, too. The deaths were always so awkwardly mundane in a "hm, never really occurred to me that that was even dangerous?" kind of way. But you never looked at an indoor clothesline the same way again, did you? :P

[DittyDotDot]

Aren't most episodes of Supernatural basically spoofs of B-horror movies?

[catrox14]

I look at them as loving homages.

[SueB]

As I said, swing and a miss.

[DittyDotDot]

I'm just saying, this is what Supernatural does week after week, but this particular episode is the parody? What makes it unique to this episode?

[rue721]

Aren't most episodes of Supernatural basically spoofs of B-horror movies?

 

I think that most episodes of Supernatural *are* basically B-horror movies. Or the good ones are, anyway!

 

Plus, 90s teen horror is its own subgenre, I think. One that can be good! Albeit dated now. But I practically lived and breathed Buffy and genuinely liked Scream, the Faculty, Final Destination, etc, back then, so it's not like I'm unbiased.

 

In theory, I would actually think that a spoof of those kinds of movies would work well for SPN -- they don't take themselves too seriously, are heavy on the gore, etc. But the show probably should have known that this one would be a swing and a miss once they decided not to even *sample* the Offspring. I mean what were they even thinking, they couldn't even have one of their songs coming out of the wifi speakers to blow up the kid's head?

[DittyDotDot]

I think that most episodes of Supernatural *are* basically B-horror movies. Or the good ones are, anyway!

 

Plus, 90s teen horror is its own subgenre, I think. One that can be good! Albeit dated now. But I practically lived and breathed Buffy and genuinely liked Scream, the Faculty, Final Destination, etc, back then, so it's not like I'm unbiased.

 

In theory, I would actually think that a spoof of those kinds of movies would work well for SPN -- they don't take themselves too seriously, are heavy on the gore, etc. But the show probably should have known that this one would be a swing and a miss once they decided not to even *sample* the Offspring. I mean what were they even thinking, they couldn't even have one of their songs coming out of the wifi speakers to blow up the kid's head?

 

I guess I haven't seen the show as a B-horror movie every week since S1. It seems to me, Supernatural has been spoofing the genre one way or another for years now. #THINMAN was their Scream, IMO. I'm just not getting that this episode was meant to be more of a spoof than any other of their one-off episodes in the last couple years.

[rue721]

I guess I haven't seen the show as a B-horror movie every week since S1. It seems to me, Supernatural has been spoofing the genre one way or another for years now. #THINMAN was their Scream, IMO. I'm just not getting that this episode was meant to be more of a spoof than any other of their one-off episodes in the last couple years.

 

How would you say SPN is usually written as a spoof? I don't think it's at all satirical. Sometimes to a fault, imo, I actually would prefer if it had more irony/lightness and humor.

 

The subgenre that I think they were trying to do a send up of in this episode is already satirical and arch by definition, and in the first half of this episode (like with the deaths of the blond and the frat boy), imo they were also trying to hit "satirical" and "arch" to match that. But they couldn't hit the tone right, imo, and the show ended up feeling like it was a caricature of itself, like supposebly said, instead of like a send up of old snarky teen horror.

 

ETA:

Obviously they have had gory deaths before, that's not what I mean. I mean in terms of the tone of this episode, and even its premise, characters, deaths, everything.

Edited February 13, 2015 by rue721

[SueB]

 

What makes it unique to this episode?

It was so Cabin-in-the-Woods-esque.  The specific tropes of the college teens in particular was the give-a-way.

Why they went for that with THIS episode?  I don't know.  Perhaps because they wanted to juxtapose the caricatures of the teens with Dean realizing he can't keep "playing" Dean Winchester (hungry, horny, dumb, guilt-ridden, bad coping mechanisms) and just BE Dean Winchester (the guy who finds peace in Saving People, Hunting Things...). 

[AwesomO4000]

... If they were trying to spoof 90s teen horror, it also at least makes *more* sense that they used the internet/computers as a boogeyman. I don't remember if ~technology~ was ever a MotW on Buffy, but if it wasn't, it might as well have been -- the concept fits right in imo. Throwing in all that stuff about how the 90s were a looooong time ago now and the leads on this show are ~old~ also makes some sense if they were trying to spoof 90s movies in this episode, imo.

 

Oh, yes, Buffy did a (sort of) technology as a monster-of-the-week episode. And actually the idea was pretty interesting. Someone (Jenny, I think) scanned an ancient text, and by doing so, this was the modern equivalent of "reading" the text, so in doing that it satisfied the requirement of the spell and the monster came to life and got into the internet/computer. Sounds pretty interesting right? The execution, however... :: shudders :: One of the worst episodes of Buffy ever, in my opinion. The name should've warned me: "I Robot, You Jane." The monster tried to build itself a robot body, too... which maybe should've been creepy/scary, but was more scary bad. And not in a fun "Beer Bad" way (which was actually an amusing episode in it's cheesiness, in my opinion), but in a just truly bad way. * The cheesy, monster chats with a girl (Willow) and sounds like an intelligent person (which how? 1) it's a demon and 2) likely hundreds of years old, and so in no way would it know how to even mimic normal speech) was bad enough, never mind what the monster wanted to do with Willow. Just no. So in some ways - a lot of ways - Supernatural here did it at least better than that. For me anyway. And now I'm going to go find something to watch to make me forget that Buffy episode again.

 

* And that's not even counting the Yzma factor of why would you even have a book like that where if someone read the words out loud, a monster would come to life... because that just sounds like a really, really bad idea. That scanning qualified just made such a book a total bomb just waiting to explode.

[supposebly]

I've spent my teenage years watching the slasher movies until they became their own parody. So, the spoofs in the 90s were already redundant to me. Now, making fun of that particular genre in 2015 is reaaaally stretching it trying to make that in any way amusing.

 

Let alone that I think the first time they spoofed these kinds of movies was with Bloody Mary and the Hookman. At least, that's what I took away from those episodes.

 

It's terribly old news on this show.

 

Maybe I'm finally too old news for this show too.

[DittyDotDot]

How would you say SPN is usually written as a spoof? I don't think it's at all satirical. Sometimes to a fault, imo, I actually would prefer if it had more irony/lightness and humor.

 

To me, the MoTW episodes are generally satirical in the sense that they take a concept or idea and kinda mock it--the gory deaths themselves used to be mockery, IMO (although, it's been some time since I've felt that way about the gore on this show). I don't think that was the intent in S1--I think they took their scare rather seriously back then even if they didn't take themselves particularly seriously. S2 seemed to really start using the one-offs more as satirical homages, IMO. I do find the myth episodes are usually played a bit more straight, though, and probably why I generally prefer the one-offs. Sometime around S6 or S7, I started seeing the show as less homages and more rip off, but I still think it was meant to be mockery, for the most part. In recent years, I don't think they've hit their mark on the mockery much and in general have taken themselves far too seriously.

 

 

It was so Cabin-in-the-Woods-esque.  The specific tropes of the college teens in particular was the give-a-way.

 

But how is this different than any other Supernatural episode?  It seems to me, almost every MoTW episode is very Cabin-in-the-Woods-esque for the most part. How is what they did in this episode with the college kids any different than the college kids in Hookman other than the technological changes that's taken place since that episode aired? I guess I'm just am not seeing that this episode was purposely trying to be any more of a parody than most other episodes.

 

If you ask me, this episode seemed purposely non-satirical. I felt like they were trying to capture that S1 B-horror movie vibe--and not in a ironic way--but forgot that was 10 years ago and not only Sam and Dean have changed greatly, but the world around us has too.

[SueB]

 

I guess I'm just am not seeing that this episode was purposely trying to be any more of a parody than most other episodes.

It's just my read. I'm feeling pretty confident on it based on the specifics I already mentioned, but most of these episodes can be viewed from many different perspectives.  

[DittyDotDot]

It's just my read. I'm feeling pretty confident on it based on the specifics I already mentioned, but most of these episodes can be viewed from many different perspectives.  

 

I think I'm not really getting across what I'm asking...I'm sorry, I'm really tired, but will give it the old college try once again--I really want to understand what you're seeing. I'm wondering specifically how this episode is more Cabin-in-the-Woods-esque than other episodes?

 

You specifically mentioned:

1. I Know What You Did Last Summer basic plot (which could also be said about #THINMAN/Scream; Slash Fiction/Pulp Fiction; The Usual Suspects/The Usual Suspects; Mystery Spot/Groundhog Day; I'd also add Hookman and Bloody Mary to this list even though I don't have specific movies to cite, they were basic stories lifted from typical urban legends)
2. College Kids in a small midwestern college. (That could be said of Hookman, Hell House and 90 percent of their episodes set in small mid-western towns and had college kids in it)
3. The Frat Boys: drink too much, random hookups at the drop of a hat, assholes (with a Texting PSA thrown in). Cliches all the way. (Again, Hookman)
4. The Blond "Slut" dies -- of course she dies. She was sleeping with her TA.  They even gave a shoutout by saying #slut. (Bloody Mary, Hookman and countless others)
5. The Good Girl lives. She always lives. (Hookman, Bloody Mary and countless others)

 

I guess I'm just really puzzled how you saw this one as trying to be more of a parody than say, Hookman?

[SueB]

Oh, okay.  Well in that case, it's "Cabin In the Woods" that got me to this line of thinking.  

 

First, though, let me say that you are correct that "Hookman" had many of these tropes, I think they played that episode "straight".  It was a pure urban legend Supernatural episode.  In S10, they are looking for a fresh way to do many of these MOTW episodes.  Combine all the tropes into the first half of this episode, adding the OTT death moments, and using parallels with Dean and Sam...that's less straightforward.  It could have simply been lazy writing, but the evidence of the parallels, combination of blatant trope rip-offs, and tone shift in the second half is what made me think: "this is ON PURPOSE".  Much more than Hookman.  Hookman was straight-up horror tropes on TV not played for laughs.  There's an element of macabre humor in the first three deaths that wasn't there in Hookman IMO. So, feeling something was "off", I watched a second time to figure out what the hell they were doing.  

 

Note: If I hadn't seen The Cabin in the Woods. I may not have gone down this line of reasoning.  Once I compared it to the first half of Cabin in the Woods...it just seemed paint-by-numbers following Whedon's playbook of homage/parody. 

 

SPOILERS FOR CABIN IN THE WOODS -- if you didn't see it, stop reading.  

Whedon made Cabin in the Woods an intentional homage to horror movies.  And it's VERY DARK HUMOR. And the parallels for Halt and Catch Fire is what drew me:

- While Cabin in the Woods had five college friends going thru the traditional horror tropes, Marty-the-goof is sort of outside the "rules" of the horror trope.  Yes, he plays the goof but sees everything coming, and he also continues with the "good girl" when the movie makes it's MASSIVE left turn into a conspiracy-plot-using-horror-tropes-deaths-to-appease-angry-gods

- We've had individual cliche characters given a send-up on the show before, but this particular gag went on for the first half of the episode.  They were REALLY dedicated to the concept.  And it involved ALL the kids, each filling a trope. In Cabin in the Woods we had the jock who dies, the #slut who dies (I think it was post sex -- naturally), the asshole who dies, and the good girl who lives.  They did a shit-ton of tropey things along the way as they were obviously staying in a "MURDER-CABIN IN THE WOODS" in the Whedon film. Everything about that Cabin said "don't go in there". Yeesh.  Now for Supernatural, we don't see it coming as much with the location and individual deaths the first time through, but the texting and murder scene pulls it all together for me.   

- When we get the reveal on how they were all involved with the death of the one guy, I felt like I was watching that Geico commercial about bad decisions...because it was so obviously the BAD DECISION MOMENT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yrrw0wNLc2g

- So...on second watch, now knowing this all stems from "bad decision" horror trope, I watched how each member of the "bad decision" gang acted and was killed.

- Truck guy being an asshole seemed more obvious second time around.  The smash into the "Supernatural" title also peaked my interest.  I thought "maybe it's more than just 'cool SFX'.  

- The Blonde #slut (oh how I hate this trope), was my first real clue on 'this is a horror movie'. Now it was obvious, we just killed "asshole/possibly jock guy." But then came the Blonde. It's important for me to note that even the Blonde gal's death in the preview seemed "off".  I couldn't pin down as I watched the first time why I felt I was missing something but I knew I was.   Armed with the knowledge that this all stemmed from "Bad Decision" moment, the use of the standard trope became painfully obvious.  So painful, in fact, that I realized that the way they were filming it was a bit "off" and that what bothered me about the preview and gave me a weird "vibe" in the first place.  We've had individual gruesome deaths before, but (as mentioned above), the sleeping with the TA, the duck-face selfie, the hot pink computer, and CGI power cord, the music, and (as pointed out), the tongue sticking out death visage.  It was the most OTT characterization of all of them.  With the most cliched of all the deaths. I generally mentally gloss over the gross stuff.  But it was her death where I saw macabre humor.  And I thought "ahh, they are going for parody, not just homage". 

- Third dude gave us the complete characterization of "all frat boys are horrible individuals who should die by ax murderers" (not really...but it does seem to be a horror trope).  They've had piece-of-shit college characters before but THIS guy getting a random sex hookup invite via text? OTT even for Supernatural.  Then we have fat-guy frat humor and death by decibel.  

Again...ONE death with 'good girl'...no issues. Three OTT deaths with 'good girl' lives...it feels like I'm watching a 90's slasher film. Watching the flashback to the Bad Decision Moment and ...voila, this looks like a "movie in a TV show" to me.

Now, if they had just played the rest of the episode straight ... find the ghost, gank/end the ghost...done, then I might have said it was a bit of lazy reuse of horror tropes with some lampshading going on.  But I feel like the second half turned back into Supernatural 101.  With the parallels and Dean AND Sam both learning life lessons regarding their current personal issues.  Sam and Dean were learning NOTHING during the first half.  They were kind of characters in the movie as well until we got to the second half.

 

I hope this explains it more.  I feel like I've repeated myself -- so I'm sorry.  I just may not be able to articulate how I got there.  I will say, once I've seen it, I can't unsee it.      

Edited February 13, 2015 by SueB

[DittyDotDot]

Oh, okay.  Well in that case, it's "Cabin In the Woods" that got me to this line of thinking.  

 

First, though, let me say that you are correct that "Hookman" had many of these tropes, I think they played that episode "straight".  It was a pure urban legend Supernatural episode.  In S10, they are looking for a fresh way to do many of these MOTW episodes.  Combine all the tropes into the first half of this episode, adding the OTT death moments, and using parallels with Dean and Sam...that's less straightforward.

 

Wait, I think I figured out the disconnect...you're saying the deaths, clichéd characters, parallels to Sam and Dean and such were more extreme here and I just don't see them any different than any other episode of Supernatural. The only thing I found unusually over-the-top in this one was how Dean was a complete glutton and acted like he'd never seen a pretty girl before in his life. Other than that, it didn't seem at all like they were going for extremes, but was every Tuesday night on Supernatural. I get they were mocking horror--I noticed all the tropes too--but I think they do that in almost every episode and I definitely didn't see the deaths as any more over the top than, say, death by: elevator, racist truck, quartering or most of the other whacky deaths they've done over the last 9-10 years.

 

Gotcha now. I'm not sure I agree that's what they were going for, but now I understand what you were trying to say.

[Wynne88]

One really small detail that I enjoyed was when Sam and Dean were coming into the student's room in their FBI outfits.  Sam ducked under the yellow tape; Dean, coming in behind him, just ripped it down.  I like these little bits of humor so much more than the bad table manners!

[rue721]

Sam and Dean were learning NOTHING during the first half.  They were kind of characters in the movie as well until we got to the second half.

 

IA, they were *part* of the joke. They were satirical/caricatures, too, same as the douchebag frat boy or the "slut" were. I think that was key for me, in terms of feeling like the first half of the episode was supposed to be a send up of that particular subgenre of teen satire/horror rather than just SPN's usual playing-it-basically-straight B-horror.

 

I'll say for this episode, I think that switch in tone in the middle was actually 100% successful. Funny that probably the most difficult thing in the episode to write was what they actually got right. I wonder why that is?

 

ETA:

 

Hmmm now I'm wondering about the Hallmark-y-ness of the second half of this episode and wondering why they laid it on so thick. But I think that was just shitty writing and they were genuinely trying to go for the usual SPN dramz and to show what was going on with the characters/give the characters their own singular POVs again.

 

Though I guess they didn't really know what was going on with the characters, so how could they do that successfully? They basically stalled any movement forward in terms of growth or even storyline changes for either Sam or Dean, and then threw in that incomprehensible speech by Dean (that even Sam seemed to find confusing and be giving a lot of side-eye) for the emotional wrap up at the end. Seems to me like writers who are just bullshitting because they don't actually understand the characters' POVs or where they're going.

 

Which, to be fair, I don't either. But whereas it's nbd if some random viewer isn't getting it, the people who write the show hopefully would? Idk. I would love to know what SPN's writers' room is like, and just what goes on in terms of the scriptwriting in general.

Edited February 14, 2015 by rue721

[SueB]

 

Though I guess they didn't really know what was going on with the characters, so how could they do that successfully?

I think Sam and Dean are (per Carver) trying out different solutions.  As Carver put it, throwing spaghetti on a wall and seeing what sticks.The rough form of it was:

- just survive and get better (first half of the season)

- get rid of the Mark using their traditional SPN methods: get someone of power (Metatron) to tell them what to do and follow then maze to get the cheese. 

- maybe learn to control it while still searching other options: this went thru the egg white omlette phase

- keep working while still searching

- and now Dean is back to "day by day".  He's going to presume this is who he is and give up hope for a cure.  Sam's not on board (clearly), but I think this is another glop of spaghetti at the wall

 

 

I would love to know what SPN's writers' room is like, and just what goes on in terms of the scriptwriting in general.

There may be drugs.... j/k

Seriously, tho, Adam Glass, Bobo Berens, and Robbie Thompson have been pretty accessible regarding their writing process.  It seems there are multiple stages and multiple levels

Season Macro Level:

- Carver/Singer set the big picture for the season with some specific beats for the first half of the year.  Later I think they set some more big beats but I don't know if it's at the start of the year

- The year's stucture is pretty set now: First 3 episodes wrap up up the previous season's cliffhanger. The mid-season finale and return are mytharc oriented.  They revisit the mytharc a couple of times in the back half and the last two or three episodes gear up for the finale.  In between is MOTW with character growth to get them to the overall theme of the year.  

- Writers are assigned episode numbers based on their strengths.  Buckner/Lemming get a lot of mytharc.  Bobo Berens seems to have drawn a few of those as well.  Carver does the start and finish.  Some big picture ideas and concepts are thrown out and writer get assigned either based on that or just a rotation.

 

Episode Level

- Writer provide first pitch to Carver/Singer- it may or maynot be a storyboard -- not clear on this

- They go into a detailed outline stage -- I think it goes thru a murderboard process involving many writers and approved by Carver/Singer

- Once the detailed outline is approved, they crank out the script on a deadline 

- Much editing ensues

- It goes up for production, more realism of production and editing ensues -- the director is involved at this stage I believe, and location/tech scouting occurs

- Prior to filming, J2 will make suggestions if they really have issues, the production crew start their adds (background bits, costuming bits, etc..)

- During filming J2 adhoc a bit, director tries out a ton of options and sets the tone of the episode based on script, talking with Carver/Singer, his vision, and just about anyone else who provides him an input

- In editing, the director makes a cut of the episode

- Then the official editors come and adjust

- Final version approved by TPTB (I believe) 

- SFX and music and ...DONE

Note: There's probably 82 steps I missed. This is just my rough understanding.

 

My point: it's not just a single writer, and hits and misses can come from a ton of inputs.  

So... in the creation of one episode

- 

Edited February 14, 2015 by SueB

[rue721]

I think Sam and Dean are (per Carver) trying out different solutions.  As Carver put it, throwing spaghetti on a wall and seeing what sticks.The rough form of it was:

- just survive and get better (first half of the season)

- get rid of the Mark using their traditional SPN methods: get someone of power (Metatron) to tell them what to do and follow then maze to get the cheese. 

- maybe learn to control it while still searching other options: this went thru the egg white omlette phase

- keep working while still searching

- and now Dean is back to "day by day".  He's going to presume this is who he is and give up hope for a cure.  Sam's not on board (clearly), but I think this is another glop of spaghetti at the wall

 

I guess what I don't understand is what these supposed solutions that they're trying out even consist of -- they seem so half-assed (going to Metatron instead of going to either Lucifer or Cain when they needed info), and often tangential to the actual problem of the Mark anyway. I mean, it would be great, I guess, if Dean ate better or practiced self-control or just became zen enough to take things as they come, but what does this have to do with this supernatural power/entity that's taking control over him (the Mark itself)? What specifically are those "solutions" supposed to solve? They seem like they're all about Dean's health or state of mind, but Dean's health and state of mind are basically fine now, aren't they? It's the Mark of Cain that's turning him into a demon and stuff. So shouldn't the solutions be more focused specifically on the Mark?

 

This giving up hope for a cure thing is completely bizarre to me because that will just result in Dean becoming a demon again sooner or later, won't it? I mean, even if (somehow) for his entire life he's just a paragon of serenity and healthy living, at some point he's going to die -- and then what? Get stabbed with the demon blade so his (demon!)soul is incinerated? Idk, I just don't get what he's even hoping for.

 

It seemed to me that he started this episode holed up studying "lore," then had that talk with the redhead who also had buried her nose in a book (and raised her GPA!) to try and avoid the consequences of the horrible thing she'd done, and then he finished the episode I guess deciding to still be like the redhead (post-ghost-haunting) and move on? But Dean can't move on, because unlike the redhead, the Mark didn't decide to go POOF because of the love of a good woman or whatever. So I didn't understand what the hell Dean was talking about. And even if he wants to take a break, why should Cas take a break? Idk, it just seemed like a mess to me. But some of that was also because of Sam's WTF reaction, which I loved. I mean, obviously Sam isn't going to be taking a break, whatever Dean is doing.

 

Just as a sidenote, I think it's kind of funny/strange that the show keeps doing these very heavy-handed, pretty explicitly stated parallels between Dean and teenage girls (Claire, now the redhead). I get that a big portion of the audience is teenage girls, so it makes sense for them to do that. Maybe this is the show's way of compromising -- not bringing in a teenage character or another female character as a regular, but still giving that demographic a visible presence onscreen regularly?

 

My point: it's not just a single writer, and hits and misses can come from a ton of inputs.  

So... in the creation of one episode

 

What's strange with this show is that it actually *doesn't* seem as collaborative as other shows (in terms of its writing). I mean, you can usually tell right away who wrote a specific script. Also, I feel like one script/writer will frequently have very different strengths and weaknesses than any other script/writer, and those strengths/weaknesses will be clear even in the final product/the episode -- that makes the show feel less cohesive, imo. The strengths and weaknesses of any given episode are all over the map, as is the tone of the episode, the characterization, everything. Usually the showrunner would take the edge off of those inconsistencies and polish every script into a show- (rather than writer-) specific voice, but that's not happening here. (I don't know why?)

 

I mean, we just had a good character episode from Adam Glass last week. Then this week, it's a complete muddle. The tone last week was strong imo, even the jokes were pretty good, but the tone this week was very off, and the humor was terrible (and in general, I think that I know that this pair of writers is bad with tone/humor/characterization, though they have tended to go too broad for the most part, which is probably why they got this particular episode). Ross-Leming and Bruckner are going to be shit at finding good ways to get the episode's plot from Point A to Point B, but meanwhile, Thompson is good at that. It makes it seem like the writers really aren't working together, they're all sort of doing their own thing. Because they definitely don't seem to be working as a team to fill in each others' weaknesses or lend their strengths to any given episode, at least not after the outline stage.

 

I'm curious about what goes on in their writers' room because it almost feels like there *isn't* one. But obviously there must be. Maybe Carver (or Singer?) is too absent or not giving enough leadership and nobody else is stepping up to take the lead? Maybe for some reason the writers have poor communication with each other and/or with the showrunners (i.e., they don't have enough meetings or face time or something)? Idk. Also, this show seems like the production is genuinely pretty close. I mean, something like Fan Fiction seemed to me like it was as much an homage to the production team/crew as to the fans imo, what with that scene at the end showing all the people in the audience (who I assume are crew and/or producers), etc. So why aren't any of the writers on the same page, when it seems like everyone else is? That's a very unusual dynamic, I think -- to have the production's (relative) top brass a disorganized/inconsistent mess but for the actual production to be well-run.

 

I don't think that this writing staff is fundamentally any weaker than any other given writing staff (I mean compared to other shows), so I don't think it's an issue of "they just need better writers." There are lots of good ideas, and even the basic bones of the scripts seem pretty good for the most part -- but the scripts almost always seem like rough drafts to me, or mayyyybe second drafts? You could tell that Glass put a lot of thought/care into About a Boy, and props to him for that, but one reason you could tell was that it was in such contrast to something like The Hunters' Games, which seemed like it really was the writers' rough draft that we were seeing on screen. And this episode seemed like it *had* been polished somewhat, since the first half was weirdly toned down and the second half weirdly mealy-mouthed, so the script seemed like it was in some kind of transition stage in terms of editing, imo -- but it needed *at least* one more draft to get it feeling more like a finished product imo and it definitely didn't seem like it had been punched up. Since (imo) this is fundamentally an editing problem (w/r/t the scripts in general), that seems like a managerial issue to me. But on the other hand, I thought that when Gamble was showrunner, too. Though I liked S6 and S7, they were also muddled (and imo it's gotten worse under Carver). So I'm not trying to lay all the blame at Carver's feet. I'm just very curious about what's going on that this is such an issue. It's also frustrating to see, for me, because it seems so *fixable.* It seems like something a good showrunner should be able to fix. Though of course, how would I know? I can't even really tell what's going wrong, let alone how to right it!

[catrox14]

In s8 the cliffhanger of Dean going to Purgatory was resolved in the first episode. But the mytharc wasn't Purgatory it was the race for the demon tablet to be read leading to the trials mytharc which lasted essentially the last half of s8 give or take and  didn't end until Kevin's death in s9. Everything that happened to Sam was a result of the mytharc of the tablets  and the consequence of not finishing the trials and even Dean's decision to let Sam be possessed was tied to the tablet mytharc.

 

A new mytharc was introduced midway of s9 with Dean taking on the MoC and that's still there.  The only mytharc they deconstructed immediately was demon!Dean which is the one mytharc that should have lasted at least 5 to 10 episodes.  But I might even argue that the MoC and demon!Dean are actually still part of the tablet mytharc. But that's just me.

 

 

Rue721, I get what you mean.  I don't understand why there are such swings in character writing for the two leads who have been playing these characters with such skill and care and talent for 10 seasons.  It makes no sense to me why we go from something like About a Boy to Halt and Catch Fire and Dean is two completely different people and neither of them have black eyes to explain the variation. 

 

And Jensen can do his best to find the variations but even he couldn't save the mess of Halt and Catch Fire.  I can imagine him trying to make sense of the shit dialogue in the closing speech and just giving up and playing it as it's written.  Typically the times we know he and Jared have asked for changes the changes they made were for the best and I can't imagine him thinking this was good characterization for regular!Dean.  JMO

Edited February 14, 2015 by catrox14

[SueB]

 

neither of them have black eyes to explain the variation.

hee. 

[DittyDotDot]

Moving writers discussion to TPTB thread...

[millennium]

Quite possibly giving the show too much credit, but I thought all of this was hinting that Dean is still having problems with self control that are emerging in other ways. Like trying to squeeze part of a balloon, and having the rest of it expand to compensate. So he keeps a lid on wrath for once, but lust and gluttony get out of control. The fact that it was so blatant and so out of character that Sam noticed it seemed like a signal to me that we, the audience, were also supposed to notice it.

 

Good insight.

 

Hozier, ugh.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I know, I know.  Weird, trivial stuff bugs me.  Probably more than it should.  :)  Probably more than the main "points" of the story.  lol.  Whatever.  I'm a simple kinda gal.

• Why did the guys call going to Iowa "the Midwest"?  Last time I checked, Kansas was "the Midwest" also.  
• Until more than half way through this ep, I thought maybe they were at an all girls college.  Then I finally saw a guy walk by in the back ground.  Oh...kay...
• I wasn't sure what was with all Dean's comments re: the college girls.  If it was supposed to be cute and funny, it wasn't.  He's a little old for them and it came off as skeevy.  If the older women (who were barely 10 years older than Sam) hitting on Sam in the Ask Jeeves ep were supposed to be seen as creepy and pathetic, then Dean drooling over women more than 10 years younger than him is creepy and pathetic also.  I know male writers probably don't see it as such, but they should.  Sauce for the goose, fellas.  
• Furthermore, I don't usually see Dean as creepy and pathetic so I don't like feeling as if I should, even if it was unintentional.  
• Whoa, Dean was eating a LOT this ep.  Dean normally eats a lot, but he was chowing down even more than usual.  And I know Dean is not usual because MOC, but compared to last ep - pendulum swing, much?  
• The " nothing ever really gets deleted from the internet." is not entirely, technically true.  It's only mostly true.  Wipe a  few servers, and one could easily delete things from the internet.  I'm not saying it would be easy.  I'm just saying it's possible...  :)
• No Sam.  We're not just a bunch of electrical impulses.  There is actually a good bit of scientific evidence that 'souls' have matter/weight.  
• The 'ghost in the machine" was a nice concept, in a way, but poorly explained.  Andrew was electrocuted near a cell tower so became a wi-fi ghost?  Not buying it.  
• WTF was with the college chick's derogatory remark about Gen X?  'scuse me, bitch?  Imma write that off as she was just a stupid bimbo.  Cause I know plenty of people her age who would still get the Steven King reference.   And for all of her alleged technological savvy-ness - she's still have to go to someone else (probably a Gen Xer) to fix her Mac.  
• Those tower speakers in Kyles room were wireless?  No freakin' way.

Um...so something good, cause I feel like I griped about this ep a lot:

• I liked that Dean was at least familiar with the country song about driving the deceased truck in their memory.  
• Dean and Delilah had some nice moments together.  
• The woman who played the widow, Corey, did a good job.  I felt very sorry for her, basically losing her husband twice.  

I'm not worried about Dean saying he's giving up looking for a cure, 'cause I know that will only last one or two eps at most.  

[AwesomO4000]

On 9/18/2016 at 9:16 PM, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Why did the guys call going to Iowa "the Midwest"?  Last time I checked, Kansas was "the Midwest" also.  

But Iowa is only up one state and over one state... pretty much in the same area even if it's a little East of that and somewhat stretching the definition of "West." Maybe it's midwest-ish? ; )

[DittyDotDot]

13 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

But Iowa is only up one state and over one state... pretty much in the same area even if it's a little East of that and somewhat stretching the definition of "West." Maybe it's midwest-ish? ; )

I think @RulerofallIsurvey was commenting on how they were already in the mid-west (because they were in Kansas), but then they said they were going to the mid-west; as though they weren't already in the mid-west. Doh!

[AwesomO4000]

3 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think @RulerofallIsurvey was commenting on how they were already in the mid-west (because they were in Kansas), but then they said they were going to the mid-west; as though they weren't already in the mid-west. Doh!

Ohhh - I forgot that they were in Kansas still at the bunker... unless the Winchesters are some of those people that consider Kansas "West." Usually those people are Easterners though. For some of them, anything east of like Mississippi is "West."

[bettername2come]

I like how polite the ghost is telling Janet to get out of the car. Most ghosts don't seem that worried about collateral damage. Agents Grohl and Cobain makes me so happy. I had to look up the country song Dean referenced because it sounded familiar, but I wasn't sure of it. "I Drive Your Truck" by Lee Brice. I hate the chick who said "I look like such a hag. I look twenty-five." I like that the widow knew what was up and handled it appropriately when the time came. They need more helpful civilians like that.  

[Jeddah]

On 9/3/2017 at 11:28 PM, bettername2come said:

 Agents Grohl and Cobain makes me so happy.

And the girl's last name was Novoselic! How do they never get called on these names?! I'd definitely comment on it if I met two guys named Grohl and Cobain.

I know the guy in "Scarecrow" commented on the name John Bonham. I can't think of another time anyone's noticed.

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, Jeddah said:

And the girl's last name was Novoselic! How do they never get called on these names?! I'd definitely comment on it if I met two guys named Grohl and Cobain.

I know the guy in "Scarecrow" commented on the name John Bonham. I can't think of another time anyone's noticed.

I can't remember what aliases they were using, but the cop in Repo Man called them the Drummer boys because, presumably they were using drummer aliases.

[Jeddah]

5 hours ago, Katy M said:

I can't remember what aliases they were using, but the cop in Repo Man called them the Drummer boys because, presumably they were using drummer aliases.

You're right! I looked it up, and they were Agents Bonham and Watts. For some reason people always know John Bonham.

[Hanahope]

I'm not reading all of these prior posts, so forgive me if I ask a question that's already been answered.

So, I get that wifi can go through the computers, phones and the gps, but how does it operate a truck?  Yeah, I know, super ghost powers.

We're seeing this from Dean's point of view, right?  So we have no idea what "Trina" is, other than apparently some substitute generic gps system, since I'd never heard of it before.  But yeah, we know who/what "Christine" is.  I did chuckle at the millenial v. gen x bit.

I can understand Dean's desire to just stop with all the research.  Frankly, I question how they can really do 'research', since the MoC was on one person, Cain, who killed a bunch of demons/knight demons, then went into isolation.  So how could there really be "research" or information on the MoC?  its not like some old lore known by many people. And, it was only ever passed onto one person, Dean.  So how could there be "research" on how to remove it?  it just makes no sense.  it would seem that the only possible source of "research" would have to be demons, angels, tablets, god.