S01.E12: Crazy For You

[Actionmage]

there was a sign that said Level 600. Level 600!

 

I am thinking that it's just the sixth floor, but different labs are numbered from 600 and up.  I thought I saw a Level 900 once. Then again, wacky science pops up from time-to-time.. :D

[phoenics]

The strangest thing about the inhumanity of the cells is that there's no opposing voice. The only possible main character that could state opposition is Iris.

That has a surprising ring of truth to it... if Iris ever investigated Star Labs and stumbled across the cells with the metahumans in it... That actually sounds interesting.

[phoenics]

What a joke this episode was...it was like someone accidentally mixed up the script with someone's fanfic. Where did any of this come from? Are they really going to make Caitlin have a thing for Barry? What is Iris's purpose on this show? Is she really the female lead or was that the old bait and switch to get people like me watching? Did they really have her walk away from Barry like she couldn't give less a of shit about him after he showed up to help her? How is that the same girl who loved and adored him so much and was always so considerate of his feelings? Are they really only making her want him NOW because someone else does? Do they not want people to like her? What a mess. This doesn't feel like the same show I watched before the hiatus and I'm just....I never say this but...I can't even. I literally just can't even.

Right there with you. I honestly believe the show is doing a bait and switch. Every concern you have - I have and I bet we aren't alone.

Caitlin gets the "apartment" set and we still haven't seen where Iris lives with Eddie?

Either the writers don't want us to care about Iris (we do!) or this particular writer just doesn't like Iris - or the director doesn't. Iris got NO meaningful or focused emotional beats. The camera barely stayed on her during some scenes - we barely got time to see what her reaction was or wasn't. Trying to watch the show for emotional moments with Iris is like scrapping for water in the desert - the show just seems determined not to give us that - the direction last night was awful - the characters seemed OOC...

I hated this episode.

Barry and his "nice guy" tropeyness was awful. Caitlin being drunk was just excruciatingly bad and I didn't think Linda and Barry clicked at all. I was frustrated with the direction in this episode - just really frustrated. The tone was way off and it felt like the writers had decided to drop Iris/Barry and go with Caitlin/Barry. The fact that Caitlin gets her own apartment shown and not Iris seals it for me. I feel very badly for CP. It must suck to be the lead actress but get scraps in the episodes.

[Carrie Ann]

Caitlin gets the "apartment" set and we still haven't seen where Iris lives with Eddie?

 

Didn't they move into the apartment we saw them in when they were in bed together? I can't remember which episode that was...

[Actionmage]

I believe we saw Eddie's nice bedroom in "The Man in The Yellow Suit", Episode 9? It was the last one before the winter break.

[wayne67]

Didn't they move into the apartment we saw them in when they were in bed together? I can't remember which episode that was...

 

They could have moved to a new apartment together so they could make it theirs together. Who knows though, it's not like Iris gets much of an inner life. She hardly even gets meaningful screen time with her own father while Barry hogs her dad for emotional support while she doesn't get told there was a death threat against her.

 

Somehow I became an Iris supporter... weird.

[Oscirus]

I think it was not portrayed as Barry purposefully ditching Shanker, but rather Barry realizing that the purported robbery was potentially going on right that second

 

Putting the scene right after the father reveal  indicates that it was. I actually wouldn't care about that action if it wasn't from the same dude who was whining about Arrow torturing people.

 

I thought the meta humans were undead so don't need food, rest or maintenance.

 

Barry's a metahuman and he needs a lot more food then a regular human so what they're doing it worse.

She hardly even gets meaningful screen time with her own father while Barry hogs her dad for emotional support while she doesn't get told there was a death threat against her.

 

I was just thinking when Joe arranged for Barry to spend time with his father that maybe Joe can do the same for Iris if she ever visits the prison.

[Agent Dark]

Hmmm, nice to hear some Aussie alt-rock on the show.  The background music that was playing at the bar when Linda Park introduces herself to Barry was Somebody's Talking by The Preatures.

[Cirien]

Except Barry needs food and continual maintenance hence the Flash Gang.

 

Wells is always going on about how the metahumans and their powers have limits and all of them seem to be energy based as the human vessel they are in can only do so much before they need to recharge with food and or rest.

 

Even if we hand wave that somehow these metahumans don't need food or sleep. That still doesn't excuse the lack of entertainment options, they still have human psychological requirements; human interactions, sunlight, relief from endless tedium and exercise.

 

Also why did they need an elaborate mirrored cell, couldn't they just have just shoved her in a basement without windows?

 

And they had Pied Piper who is an actual human who definitely requires the normal food and rest and maintenance and it seemed like Cisco was taunting him by denying him the simple request of Thai Food and we saw his room and none it would make sense for basic maintenance of a human being.

Errrr food is a necessity but Thai food is a treat. The way that scene is set up is Cisco goes to him for help and Hartley is all "ohhhhh do I get a treat?!!!!! taunting Cisco 

[wayne67]

Errrr food is a necessity but Thai food is a treat. The way that scene is set up is Cisco goes to him for help and Hartley is all "ohhhhh do I get a treat?!!!!! taunting Cisco 

 

Well it's either they're ordering take away for their secret prisoners or they're cooking for them. I'd imagining ordering takeaway for your illegal kidnap victims isn't that much of an imposition.

 

Cisco was trying to pump his prisoner for information and he was providing no incentive to do so. Pied Piper asking for some sort of reward for something Cisco wants isn't entirely unreasonable.

 

Considering Pied Piper was a smug jerk when they started the project then got kicked off the project for citing a concern to the general public that Wells ignored and then went a little disgruntled employee on his former workplace... locking him in a cage isn't going to improve his general disposition.

 

Why should Pied Piper help these people ? They locked him in a cage without a trial and he's not allowed to be a bit snide about it ?

[Shanna]

They could have moved to a new apartment together so they could make it theirs together. Who knows though, it's not like Iris gets much of an inner life.

No Eddie gave her a key, so I think they were going to move into his place. Which we saw.

And before that iris lived at home. Which we saw.

I think they need to write more of what is going on in her head too but I don't think this particular criticism is valid.

Cisco was trying to pump his prisoner for information and he was providing no incentive to do so. Pied Piper asking for some sort of reward for something Cisco wants isn't entirely unreasonable.

Snip...

Why should Pied Piper help these people ? They locked him in a cage without a trial and he's not allowed to be a bit snide about it ?

I don't think evil hp cared anything about Thai food he was just needling Cisco. (I also think he would have mentioned it if they were starving him To death or otherwise mistreating him so I'm sure the little things are being taken care of I'm jut not sure how). What he wanted was to be let out, which he accomplished quiet handily.

Also, he tried to kill the flash and threw people off bridges so I'm not exactly crying about him being put away. I'm not sure this weeks girl deserved it though and I would like to have seen some discussion.

Edited February 6, 2015 by Shanna

[wayne67]

No Eddie gave her a key, so I think they were going to move into his place. Which we saw.

And before that iris lived at home. Which we saw.

I think they need to write more of what is going on in her head too but I don't think this particular criticism is valid.

I don't think evil hp cared anything about Thai food he was just needling Cisco. (I also think he would have mentioned it if they were starving him To death or otherwise mistreating him so I'm sure the little things are being taken care of I'm jut not sure how). What he wanted was to be let out, which he accomplished quiet handily.

Also, he tried to kill the flash and threw people off bridges so I'm not exactly crying about him being put away. I'm not sure this weeks girl deserved it though and I would like to have seen some discussion.

 

As far as I remember we've seen Eddie's bedroom but not Iris's bedroom... I could be mistaken, perhaps we saw her bedroom filled with her personal effects and I didn't notice... Iris doesn't have her own friends, she doesn't get to spend any meaningful time with her father, her only hobby that we've seen is blogging about Flash and various other metahumans. We don't know what kind of music she likes, her hobbies, if she is ever going to respond to her foster brother confessing his feelings for her. I don't think the last episode would pass the Bechdel test as there are only 2 women on the show and they seldom interact but to talk about Barry.

 

And to be technically accurate Pied Piper didn't throw anyone off a bridge. He soniced those cars into the air and one could make the argument that Pied Piper was defending himself from the super powered human who theoretically punches with the force of a mach truck and had already previously kidnapped and imprisoned him.  Was Barry punching Peekaboo with the strength of an average man or at super speed? Who knows it's not like there's any real death to the endless fisticuffs.

At this point I'm still not clear as to why Barry loves Iris. Her gumption ? Because she rescued him from more dodgy foster homes? Hormones? He supposedly loved her since he hit puberty so hormones seem like the most coherent reason. At this point it seems like loving her is more of a habit. Unfortunately as a super hero love interest she doesn't get much focus so it makes it harder to understand his appreciation for her when he could use his fame as Flash to pursue other women. Then again it seems to be another one of those comic book cliches, superheroes can only obsess about one female love interest at a time even if he doesn't trust her enough to tell her that he's insert superhero name, rescuing her whenever she becomes a damsel. It's all so repetitive and dull. It's 2015 Flash give us a reason why Iris and Barry should be an endgame couple or go home.

Edited February 6, 2015 by wayne67

[Chicago Redshirt]

As far as I remember we've seen Eddie's bedroom but not Iris's bedroom... I could be mistaken, perhaps we saw her bedroom filled with her personal effects and I didn't notice... Iris doesn't have her own friends, she doesn't get to spend any meaningful time with her father, her only hobby that we've seen is blogging about Flash and various other metahumans. We don't know what kind of music she likes, her hobbies, if she is ever going to respond to her foster brother confessing his feelings for her. I don't think the last episode would pass the Bechdel test as there are only 2 women on the show and they seldom interact but to talk about Barry.

 

And to be technically accurate Pied Piper didn't throw anyone off a bridge. He soniced those cars into the air and one could make the argument that Pied Piper was defending himself from the super powered human who theoretically punches with the force of a mach truck and had already previously kidnapped and imprisoned him.  Was Barry punching Peekaboo with the strength of an average man or at super speed. Who knows it's not like there's any real death to the endless fisticuffs.

 

We saw them post-sex in somebody's bedroom. I am assuming that was Eddie's. 

 

We don't know what kind of music Barry likes or what hobbies he has besides science. We have not seen him with any friends outside of the leads. We've seen his previous bedroom I think once in a brief scene where he overslept and super-speedily got ready.

 

One couldn't make the argument that Pied Piper was defending himself. He was sonicing cars before Barry got there in order to draw him out. Hardly an act of self-defense.

[Sakura12]

The Pied Piper threw an Asian woman off the bridge in her car. We saw Barry race down to get her before it crashed into the ground and bring her back up on the bridge. I don't count that as self defense at all. He was purposely hurting people to draw Barry to him. I was on his side when he was just going after Wells, but once he started hurting innocent people for no reason he became just as bad as Wells. 

Edited February 6, 2015 by Sakura12

[wayne67]

We saw them post-sex in somebody's bedroom. I am assuming that was Eddie's. 

 

We don't know what kind of music Barry likes or what hobbies he has besides science. We have not seen him with any friends outside of the leads. We've seen his previous bedroom I think once in a brief scene where he overslept and super-speedily got ready.

 

One couldn't make the argument that Pied Piper was defending himself. He was sonicing cars before Barry got there in order to draw him out. Hardly an act of self-defense.

 

I'm fairly sure Cisco was playing Barry a playlist of songs off his facebook or whatever during the first episode but it was so long ago I have no idea.

 

As for Barry's hobbies, it's science experiments in the garage with Joe and in the CSI lab, investigating his fathers unfair imprisonment (which is ironic considering his third job as a prison warden) , watching Netflix, super speeding around saving people from car explosions and general niceness at super speed, being chronically late and underprepared for everything. That last one is probably more of a personality flaw than a hobby. He's also great at karaoke and terrible at fighting with a side order of good at running...

 

Iris lived at home for 20? years, indeterminate age, wanted to be a cop for some reason and was denied by her dad, blogging about metahumans because of Barry and his adolescent angst and is apparently a good reporter. Also goes to school for criminology and now wants to be a full time reporter who sidelines at a coffee shop? while going to school. Oh and dates Eddie her dad's partner.

 

As for Pied Piper if your archnemesis is Wells and Barry is in the way, the easiest way to solve the problem of his defense is to kill Barry. I'm not saying it's a particularly moral choice but it's either that or get locked up by your old boss and coworkers who you probably didn't like much the first time around indefinitely. Of course the only reason he staged the showdown at a bridge is pure plot contrivance. He could have set it up somewhere where he pre prepared an audio trap like his home but no that would mean Barry would lose and stay down and that can't happen.

Edited February 6, 2015 by wayne67

[Shanna]

As far as I remember we've seen Eddie's bedroom but not Iris's bedroom... I could be mistaken, perhaps we saw her bedroom filled with her personal effects and I didn't notice... .

I am assuming she will share eddies bedroom since that's what usually happens when you move in with your bf. I want to say we saw her in her room blogging at joes house a time or two but I can't go back and check.

As far as friends, Barry is her BFF. Joe is her dad. Eddie is her bf. we need to see what's in Iris's head, but that doesn't mean I need to lean er musical tastes and meet everyone she knows.

And I'm sorry but Harry potter was not defending himself. He set up a confrontation at the bridge so he could cause carnage and kill Barry. He's not a good guy.

Edited February 6, 2015 by Shanna

[wayne67]

And I'm sorry but Harry potter was not defending himself. He set up a confrontation and the bridge so he could cause carnage and kill Barry. He's not a good guy.

 

I never said Pied Piper was a good guy. I said one could make the argument that it was self defense. You know if he got a trial for his crimes, he could claim that Flash held him in a super collider prison and he was fearful of his life so he set up a trap to capture his kidnapper and things went out of hand. Since The Flash is technically a criminal he wouldn't be able to show up at court for testimony. Once his weapons were broken he could blame everything on The Flash and Wells which is the real reason he was locked up in their prison instead of a normal one. So he couldn't reveal their secrets. Of course he won't because Plot Contrivance.

 

How exactly did Barry save someone from a falling car ? I must have missed that part... Did he develop the power to fly or super strength while I wasn't looking ?

[Shanna]

It wasn't self defense at all - he called Barry to come to the bridge and started throwing people off the bridge! You can't set up a trap and cry self defense. And last week he hadn't been locked up yet had he?

He got free this week and is still roaming.

Edited February 6, 2015 by Shanna

[wayne67]

It wasn't self defense at all - he called Barry to come to the bridge and started throwing people off the bridge! You can't set up a trap and cry self defense. And last week he hadn't been locked up yet had he?

He got free this week and is still roaming.

 

I'm guessing you forgot that his original appearance was to make himself a trojan horse so he could get inside the Star Labs for a reason I've now forgotten.

 

By the time the bridge happened he had already escaped their custody once. Thereby making them guilty of kidnap and false imprisonment against him. If he had been captured by the police or taken to police custody he wouldn't have much of a case. However since he was locked up at least once by that point if he had a good lawyer he could of at least argued it....

 

Their excellent wardenship allowed him loose on the world again so he knows about their secret prison and could leak it to the media at any point and none of them seem overly concerned which is why it's hard to root for these guys. Noone seems concerned about cause and effect and it doesn't feel like there is much of a continuity.

[Chicago Redshirt]

He got locked up on purpose for a hot second so he could steal the files about Barry's molecular composition, set his sonic devices to "kill Barry" and then lure him into the aforementioned trap. 

 

It ceases to be false imprisonment and kidnapping (if it ever was) when he wanted to be Trojan Horsed inside.

[wayne67]

He got locked up on purpose for a hot second so he could steal the files about Barry's molecular composition, set his sonic devices to "kill Barry" and then lure him into the aforementioned trap. 

 

It ceases to be false imprisonment and kidnapping (if it ever was) when he wanted to be Trojan Horsed inside.

 

If he didn't provide consent and they have no authority to hold people that means it's false imprisonment and kidnapping as they can't prove his intentions because the question would be who are all these other people you have locked in your secret prison/illegal human experimentation facility.

From Wikipedia

Claim of false imprisonment

To prevail under a false imprisonment claim, a plaintiff must prove: (1) willful detention; (2) without consent; and (3) without authority of law.(Restatement of the Law, Second, Torts)

Kidnapping

First, the nature of the offence is an attack on, and infringement of, the personal liberty of an individual. Secondly, the offence contains four ingredients as follows: (1) the taking or carrying away of one person by another; (2) by force or fraud; (3) without the consent of the person so taken or carried away; and (4) without lawful excuse.[2]

 

I don't think claiming that Pied Piper wanted to have his civil liberties taken away by the Flash Gang would go over very well in court.

Edited February 6, 2015 by wayne67

[bluebonnet]

I think regardless of the Pied Piper's crimes, the pipeline prison is a really terrible thing.  Even a crappy lawyer could get the murdery metahumans released by pointing out that the police department was complicit in falsely imprisoning them in inhumane conditions and without a trial.  Like, this prison is bad news no matter who the criminal is or what he's done.  

[wayne67]

I think regardless of the Pied Piper's crimes, the pipeline prison is a really terrible thing.  Even a crappy lawyer could get the murdery metahumans released by pointing out that the police department was complicit in falsely imprisoning them in inhumane conditions and without a trial.  Like, this prison is bad news no matter who the criminal is or what he's done.  

 

You think when they were working with Red Flash to capture Yellow Flash they had a look around the super secret prison and ignored it? I mean they would have to scout the location to make sure all the entrances were covered with motion detectors or something first.

 

There's so many gaps in the storytelling of this show, despite having Joe, Barry and Eddie as conduits to the police department we have little knowledge of what the police think about all these metahumans and random humans with super weapons wandering about. Eddie wanted to start a task force to detain and question The Flash and then for some reason lost interest in that idea and never followed it up with a MetaHuman and SuperVillainy department.

[bluebonnet]

You think when they were working with Red Flash to capture Yellow Flash they had a look around the super secret prison and ignored it? I mean they would have to scout the location to make sure all the entrances were covered with motion detectors or something first.

 

There's so many gaps in the storytelling of this show, despite having Joe, Barry and Eddie as conduits to the police department we have little knowledge of what the police think about all these metahumans and random humans with super weapons wandering about. Eddie wanted to start a task force to detain and question The Flash and then for some reason lost interest in that idea and never followed it up with a MetaHuman and SuperVillainy department.

Ignorance is never a viable defense.  Joe definitely knows that Star Labs is imprisoning these people.  It doesn't matter that his boss is ignorant about it or that Joe is ignorant about the conditions.  The criminals can still lodge a successful suit pointing out that the police department was complicit.  To give a comparable example, if one single police offices screws up with a search warrant, the criminal can walk away from paying the price even though everyone knows he or she did it.  Doesn't matter what the police chief knew or didn't know about the warrant.  

 

ETA: Let's also not forget that even all the way in Starling City they know that the Central City police works with the Flash.  Everyone watched the police stand aside while the Flash took on Captain Cold and Heat Wave.  

Edited February 6, 2015 by bluebonnet

[wayne67]

Ignorance is never a viable defense.  Joe definitely knows that Star Labs is imprisoning these people.  It doesn't matter that his boss is ignorant about it or that Joe is ignorant about the conditions.  The criminals can still lodge a successful suit pointing out that the police department was complicit.  To give a comparable example, if one single police offices screws up with a search warrant, the criminal can walk away from paying the price even though everyone knows he or she did it.  Doesn't matter what the police chief knew or didn't know about the warrant.  

 

ETA: Let's also not forget that even all the way in Starling City they know that the Central City police works with the Flash.  Everyone watched the police stand aside while the Flash took on Captain Cold and Heat Wave.  

You know what would create great tension is if Iris comes to visit Barry or Caitlin at Star Labs while they're sciencing and notices the security cam to the secret prisons and then they have to figure out how to stop Iris from reporting it. I mean Iris now has the Flash's photo which is just weird with an iPhone that she managed to take a picture of his face somehow without him noticing.  It would have made more sense for her to get security footage from when he was loitering around after the car explosion getting thanked by that random civilian.

 

I want some real stakes! What will they do when they have a problem that Flash's fists of incompetence can't lock in a secret prison? If Iris becomes a threat to Star Labs will Wells reveal his hand to protect Barry's future will it shake up the relationship between Joe and Barry, Joe and Iris, Eddie and Iris. Iris finding out that Wells has a secret prison would be a MAJOR SCOOP and would gain her the respect she suddenly craves from her reporting job. It would be awesomely ironic as it might have been diverted if the Flash had told her real identity and she'd be torn about it but revealing that The Flash takes criminals into his secret prison would be... dramatic. Would reveal the dark underbelly of secret vigilantism where noone is held accountable.

Edited February 6, 2015 by wayne67

[Chicago Redshirt]

Ignorance is never a viable defense.  Joe definitely knows that Star Labs is imprisoning these people.  It doesn't matter that his boss is ignorant about it or that Joe is ignorant about the conditions.  The criminals can still lodge a successful suit pointing out that the police department was complicit.  To give a comparable example, if one single police offices screws up with a search warrant, the criminal can walk away from paying the price even though everyone knows he or she did it.  Doesn't matter what the police chief knew or didn't know about the warrant.  

 

ETA: Let's also not forget that even all the way in Starling City they know that the Central City police works with the Flash.  Everyone watched the police stand aside while the Flash took on Captain Cold and Heat Wave.  

Not to go too deep in trying to apply real-world law to comic-book universe situations, but there would be little chance that the people who are being held could sue Central City or its police department based on what we've seen.

 

Let's agree that Joe knows about the Pipeline and the criminals being held there. To hold the city liable, there would be a couple obstacles and I don't think you could overcome any of them. First, is Joe acting in the scope of his employment in knowing about the Pipeline and not doing anything? Second, does Joe have a duty to investigate the alleged crime of the Flash Mob in holding these people? Third, can it be said that the City/CCPD deputized the Flash Mob in any way to hold these people?

 

I think the answer to each of these questions is no. 

 

As for the police working with Flash, we aren't yet at that stage. Yes, the police cleared the area of Flash's showdown with Cold and Heat Wave. That doesn't signify that they are working together. It signifies that they recognize Flash could show up and then people could get caught in the cross-fire. 

 

We haven't seen a single scene where Flash makes himself known to any cop but Joe in order to work with them. The cops don't yet have a means to contact Flash, nor has he attempted to contact them. In fact, as far as we know, Eddie's anti-Flash task force still exists. It may have been powered down now that Reverse Flash has revealed himself to be a real threat, but still...

As for kidnapping/false imprisonment, as presented to us in the show, Piper plotted to get into Star Labs so he could get access to Barry's bio-info and tune his weapon to kill him. That makes it very difficult IMO to argue that there was no consent. Almost by definition, when you are employing a Trojan Horse strategy like Piper, you are wanting to be taken as part of your strategy. 

[wayne67]

Not to go too deep in trying to apply real-world law to comic-book universe situations, but there would be little chance that the people who are being held could sue Central City or its police department based on what we've seen.

 

Let's agree that Joe knows about the Pipeline and the criminals being held there. To hold the city liable, there would be a couple obstacles and I don't think you could overcome any of them. First, is Joe acting in the scope of his employment in knowing about the Pipeline and not doing anything? Second, does Joe have a duty to investigate the alleged crime of the Flash Mob in holding these people? Third, can it be said that the City/CCPD deputized the Flash Mob in any way to hold these people?

 

I think the answer to each of these questions is no. 

 

As for the police working with Flash, we aren't yet at that stage. Yes, the police cleared the area of Flash's showdown with Cold and Heat Wave. That doesn't signify that they are working together. It signifies that they recognize Flash could show up and then people could get caught in the cross-fire. 

 

We haven't seen a single scene where Flash makes himself known to any cop but Joe in order to work with them. The cops don't yet have a means to contact Flash, nor has he attempted to contact them. In fact, as far as we know, Eddie's anti-Flash task force still exists. It may have been powered down now that Reverse Flash has revealed himself to be a real threat, but still...

As for kidnapping/false imprisonment, as presented to us in the show, Piper plotted to get into Star Labs so he could get access to Barry's bio-info and tune his weapon to kill him. That makes it very difficult IMO to argue that there was no consent. Almost by definition, when you are employing a Trojan Horse strategy like Piper, you are wanting to be taken as part of your strategy. 

 

 

Firstly the original Trojan Horse was a GIFT... Piper just showed up at a place caused chaos waited for the Flash to show up and was snatched off the streets in plain view of the cops... Consent has to be verbal. At no point did Piper agree to be captured dragged miles away and locked in a secret prison. So consent is absent. The fact that he planned on being captured doesn't negate that The Flash has no legal basis for transporting him by force to a prison cell of his making.

 

As for the cops, they have worked with The Flash in the past, he was part of the plan to capture Yellow Flash which means they know that The Flash can be contacted either through Star Labs or Joe. Which makes them complicit in his actions because they have shown no interest in curbing his activities.

 

Barry works for the police as does Joe. 2 members of the police force colluding to illegally capture and restrain super criminals without any regard for the constitution would give grounds for a civil suit against those cops and most likely the police force that hired them. '

 

Joe is a police officer, he has a duty to report crimes. Also he would have a duty for reporting information about active cases to his partner/boss and his failure to do so would be under the grounds of his employment. Pied Piper attacked cops ... in broad daylight, there is no way that the police wouldn't be looking for him, Joe is complicit in concealing his location from his boss, partner and the police force. As is Barry, though as a CSI agent I'm not sure how much the onus to share information on an active ongoing case would be. Joe however would get fired and be held accountable and accessory to the ongoing kidnapping and imprisonments. Not to mention that no one seems to care about the disposal of the Corpses of Metal Man and Lightning man. (I can't remember their names) Do they not have families that might want their loved ones returned post mortem for a funeral ?

[Shanna]

I'm guessing you forgot that his original appearance was to make himself a trojan horse so he could get inside the Star Labs for a reason I've now forgotten

Oh yeah, I did forget that. It still wasn't self defense, though. You cannot set up a 'trap' and cry self defense. There was actually a case where a guy did that this year.

(None of this secret prison stuff is legal, IMO, but I don't really care if it fits my moral view in this kind of a show. I only had a problem this week because the villain was not too villainous)

Ugh, this show! I was looking at him in his little cell thinking 'hey Harry potter'. I like the actor but it's hard to take him seriously. I hated that they made Cisco smart and dumb this episode.

Edited February 6, 2015 by Shanna

[wayne67]

Oh yeah, I did forget that. It still wasn't self defense, though. You cannot set up a 'trap' and cry self defense. There was actually a case where a guy did that this year.

Ugh, this show! I was looking at him in his little cell thinking 'hey Harry potter'. I like the actor but it's hard to take him seriously. I hated that they made Cisco smart and dumb this episode.

 

I guess it's a matter of perspective. When Kevin in Home Alone set up traps in his home to stop the Burglars breaking in to his home, was that not an act of self defense? That too was technically a trap...

 

I'm not saying it was self defense. I'm saying a lawyer could argue self defense on the grounds that evil HP is a relatively weak human up against a super fast vigilante who had already locked him in a cage once. They could also claim temporary insanity, diminished capacity or a whole bunch of other things if he had a trial.

 

The problem becomes their vigilante justice is self serving and incompetent as Pied Piper escaped their custody and the other 3 geniuses didn't even notice his absence on the security cams or wonder where Cisco was. If they were concerned that Pied Piper was an actual menance to society than they should have been investigating possible places he could be instead of detailing Peekaboo's mirror prison. Not only does he know their security protocols and prison layout, he could reveal them to the press and the cops and achieve his stated goals of revenge on Wells but he wont because PLOT ARMOR and Contrivance.

Edited February 6, 2015 by wayne67

[Chicago Redshirt]

Firstly the original Trojan Horse was a GIFT... Piper just showed up at a place caused chaos waited for the Flash to show up and was snatched off the streets in plain view of the cops... Consent has to be verbal. At no point did Piper agree to be captured dragged miles away and locked in a secret prison. So consent is absent. The fact that he planned on being captured doesn't negate that The Flash has no legal basis for transporting him by force to a prison cell of his making.

 

As for the cops, they have worked with The Flash in the past, he was part of the plan to capture Yellow Flash which means they know that The Flash can be contacted either through Star Labs or Joe. Which makes them complicit in his actions because they have shown no interest in curbing his activities.

 

Barry works for the police as does Joe. 2 members of the police force colluding to illegally capture and restrain super criminals without any regard for the constitution would give grounds for a civil suit against those cops and most likely the police force that hired them. '

 

Joe is a police officer, he has a duty to report crimes. Also he would have a duty for reporting information about active cases to his partner/boss and his failure to do so would be under the grounds of his employment. Pied Piper attacked cops ... in broad daylight, there is no way that the police wouldn't be looking for him, Joe is complicit in concealing his location from his boss, partner and the police force. As is Barry, though as a CSI agent I'm not sure how much the onus to share information on an active ongoing case would be. Joe however would get fired and be held accountable and accessory to the ongoing kidnapping and imprisonments. Not to mention that no one seems to care about the disposal of the Corpses of Metal Man and Lightning man. (I can't remember their names) Do they not have families that might want their loved ones returned post mortem for a funeral ?

I think we're getting to the point where we have to agree to disagree.

 

But before I call it quits, there's absolutely nothing in the law that says consent has to be verbal.

 

In terms of the plan to capture Reverse Flash, I'm pretty sure that the cops had no idea that the Flash was involved. That was purely a plan between Star Labs and the police. The plan was for Reverse Flash to be captured in the magnetic bubble thingy by Star Labs. Flash only showed up after Reverse Flash busted out of it.

 

The fact that Flash showed up at Star Labs does not logically mean that Flash works at Star Labs, any more than the fact that Flash has shown up at Iron Heights Prison, Stang Industries (or whatever his company was called), or any number of places means that Flash works at those places or can be contacted by those places. 

 

Joe has a moral duty to report crimes. However, as a legal matter, he is not under the same duty. 

 

Generally governments give themselves immunity for failing to solve, investigate or act on crimes. Because otherwise any time a crime was committed and the cops did not get the person who committed it, they could be sued.

Here's the language from Illinois' version of such a law:

"Sec. 4-102. Neither a local public entity nor a public employee is liable for failure to establish a police department or otherwise provide police protection service or, if police protection service is provided, for failure to provide adequate police protection or service, failure to prevent the commission of crimes, failure to detect or solve crimes, and failure to identify or apprehend criminals. This immunity is not waived by a contract for private security service, but cannot be transferred to any non-public entity or employee."

http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs4.asp?DocName=074500100HArt%2E+IV&ActID=2062&ChapterID=58&SeqStart=5800000&SeqEnd=6600000

 

As for the fact that Barry and Joe work for the police department, I would again say that there are the precursors to liability that I listed above. Anybody can sue anybody, but I don't see how a hypothetical suit would show that either Joe or Barry were acting in the scope of their employment.

[Shanna]

I guess it's a matter of perspective. When Kevin in Home Alone set up traps in his home to stop the Burglars breaking in to his home, was that not an act of self defense? That too was technically a trap...

I'm not saying it was self defense. .

You said "one could make the argument that Pied Piper was defending himself from the super powered human who theoretically punches with the force of a mach truck". He wasn't defending himself: he set a trap to kill Barry, he called him to get him to come and could have killed a bunch of people of Barry hadn't saved them. I could get into the hairy details of self defense law but that doesn't fly for lots of reasons. Pretty sure "one could argue" any damn thing you want but that wouldn't make it legal in any Courtroom.

As to whether home alone was legal, that's probably off topic for this thread and I haven't seen it in a while so I may not be down on the finer points. Likely Kevin would get off based on castle doctrine and being an eight year old (or whatever) child though.

Edited February 6, 2015 by Shanna

[wayne67]

I think we're getting to the point where we have to agree to disagree.

 

But before I call it quits, there's absolutely nothing in the law that says consent has to be verbal.

 

The problem with your argument is that Barry has never been shown to care about whether people want to be super speeded around or not. Barry thought he had disabled Pied Piper and super speeded him to the prison. He didn't ask or look for consent for transporting Pied Piper to his secret prison. Pied Piper is just another in a long list of people that Barry has super speeded into the super collider prison. The fact that Pied Piper expected to be trapped in the secret prison doesn't retroactively give The Flash consent to move Pied Piper around like an inanimate object to a location of his choosing.

 

That said I do feel like this argument has lasted way too long and we're just going around in circles.

 

Ignoring all of that . How did Pied Piper know their secret prison was a retrofitted particle collider ? I mean it's an odd choice to hold people. You'd think it'd be easier to sedate them all and just shove them in a cryo chamber or something.

 

I mean if I was going to build a super secret prison I wouldn't build it in my workplace where other people might have access. Presuming there are other employees at that building and the police wont want to sniff around for clues for the stolen Tachion device.

Edited February 7, 2015 by wayne67

[MDKNIGHT]

 

 

 

 

 

How comfortable would you be working above a ton of super-powered people who you knew were being isolated against their will directly below you and going crazier by the second?I

I agree.  There have been fictional treatments of guards/soldiers getting PTSD from participating in torturing or otherwise dehumanizing prisoners in war situations which are based on facts.  A good person can get pretty messed up participating in heinous acts even if the acts are against enemies/bad guys/terrorists.  While I don't expect my heroes to cry over jailing bad guys what they are doing here is not normal jailing and I WOULD expect heroes or even just not-evil-people to have a problem with it.  There was a short lived show called Pain Killer Jane and Jane who had super healing powers and other stuff i can't remember spent the first part of the series collecting  super-humans (don't remember thier term for the abnormals but think X-men mutants, metahumans, whatever)  secretly for the government and sending them to a secret prison.  No thought to right or wrong.  Late in the series she sees that (a) the people she's collected are being cruelly experimented on (b) a whole lot of them never DID anything.  She thought they'd all used thier powers to kill and or commit other crimes.  Turns out if the goverment found out you had powers they just kidnapped you and sent you to the secret prison.  It was only in the last few eps that she finally realized what she was doing was wrong and IIRC staged a prison break.  I feel if they'd  had the central characters at least CONSIDERING the possibility that they might not be 100% right the characters wouldn't have come accross so unlikeable and the show would have lasted longer.  By the time the characters started being more than Stormtroopers following orders in my opinion it was too late.  This show has more things to keep us entertained so I don't think it will be the ruination of the show but it DOES bug.   

 

ETA

"Not to go too deep in trying to apply real-world law to comic-book universe situations, but there would be little chance that the people who are being held could sue Central City or its police department based on what we've seen."

 

I agree that they would have little chance of suing the police dept.  The police dept didn't enprison them without trial.  If cops saw the prisoners during the trap situation and didn't do anything those cops would be up on charges of deriliction of duty.  Joe is definately breaking the law.  He could lose his job and his pension and he could be open to civil charges although the main culprits facing jail time would be the Flash gang for kidnapping unlawful emprisonment etc.  The criminals would skip on any charges for lack of evidence AND probably sue star Labs for thier mental anguish.  Pretty much any good the Flash Gang has done in emprissoning these guys would be undone if anybody finds out about it.  Good point about what would they do if Iris found out and wanted to tell.  Dr Whatsis/Reverse Flash would definately KILL her.  I would thing Snow and Cisco would be scared of going to jail but are incapable of out and out murdering anybody.  I would suspect they'd try to flee but it would be moot because Reverse Flash like I said would murder her and they'd continue thier activities. 

Edited February 7, 2015 by MDKNIGHT

[bluebonnet]

I have to laugh because if the set designers had only included a damn cardboard toilet we'd all probably be happily ignoring the fact that these meta humans haven't received a trial.  All bets are off when you forget to include a toilet.  

[quarks]

What's cracking me up is that you've all now convinced me that right now Oliver Queen is more law abiding than Barry. At least in this season Oliver turned over most of his criminals to the police. (And then after he sorta didn't exactly die, they escaped and swarmed around for three episodes, like, thanks, Oliver, that was very effective, but that rant belongs on the other forum.)

[wayne67]

What's cracking me up is that you've all now convinced me that right now Oliver Queen is more law abiding than Barry. At least in this season Oliver turned over most of his criminals to the police. (And then after he sorta didn't exactly die, they escaped and swarmed around for three episodes, like, thanks, Oliver, that was very effective, but that rant belongs on the other forum.)

 

The problem is more that having all your supercriminals in one place makes it super easy for the next super criminal to break them all free at the end of the season.

 

As for the Flash Gang super prison, they've had 3 break ins to Star Labs (Electric guy, Reverse Flash, Captain Cold before he had a super weapon), 1 break out from Pied Piper due to lack of proper induction security protocols, 1 failure to restrain a prisoner during transport(Pied Piper), 2 deaths (Metal Man and Electric Man). Star Labs security is awful and keeping all those super criminals around without 24/7 security is ridiculous. I'm just hoping the season finale pays off in a big way when Grood or whichever super criminal breaks them all free.

 

The police failed to keep custody over Clock guy, Captain Cold and Heat ray guy.

 

So far there are 3 super criminals on the loose due in part to the Flash Gang; Pied Piper, Captain Cold and Heat Ray guy. Noone seems concerned about that or that Reverse Flash is still about. How much of a threat are they really when the good guys aren't even looking for any of those 4...

Edited February 7, 2015 by wayne67

[Oscirus]

Yea, when Cisco told them about Pied Piper escaping and they were still concentrating on catching the Peekaboo cuz she's a thief, I could only shake my head. As so many in this thread have pointed out, Piper's  psychotic enough to throw people off of bridges, Peek a Boo's stealing money. Who should be the priority here.

 

As for those who last week said that Piper was in the prison meant solely for metahumans due to the fact that he knew stuff that they didn't want to get out, tell me why now that he's free that they're not even looking for him.  Regardless of the defense for said actions, this show has some serious consistency problems.

 

have to laugh because if the set designers had only included a damn cardboard toilet we'd all probably be happily ignoring the fact that these meta humans haven't received a trial.  All bets are off when you forget to include a toilet

 

They're probably kicking themselves for making Mist their first captured bad guy thereby making toilets and feeding an impossible task.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Yay, it was great to see Malese Jow again. She was a pretty girl on TVD but she looks so grown up now (I mean that in the least creepy way possible - I just mean that she doesn't look like a teenager anymore). Hopefully they give her more to do next week.

 

Also fun to see Remy from Ravenswood again too. I don't know if moving from ABC Family to the CW is considered an upgrade.

 

Along with Iris being told she's a good reporter repeatedly by Barry. Um no reporting would require her to investigate and report something rather than regurgitating information she's given by The Flash or random citizens. If they want me to buy Iris as a reporter she would have pulled out a notepad and a pen during the standoff with Flash and Captain Cold and Fire guy or at least pulled out her iPhone and taken photos or something.

ITA - as much as Iris was offended by her coworker's blog comment last week, he wasn't wrong. Her journalism experience consists of one college class and writing a blog about a mysterious flash of light based mostly on the people saying, "I saw this red flash go by!" or the Flash showing up at the coffee shop to tell her things. I mean, the level of investigation she has done up until now is about the level of a gossip blog since she is just repeating what other people have told her. I get Barry being a supportive friend but Iris needs to try writing a story that requires actual effort on her part.

 

There is so much potential for Iris as a character and for her to have interesting storylines, but we are stuck with her love triangle and her lame cub reporter plot. I'd rather have Barry get over his feelings for her so he can stop being the Nice Guy and they can be best friends without the underlying "secretly in love/confessed my love/hiding my love/jealousy" crap.

[Actionmage]

So far there are 3 super criminals on the loose due in part to the Flash Gang; Pied Piper, Captain Cold and Heat Ray guy.

 

 

Only one is on the FlashMob, and that is Piper. Captain Cold and Heat Wave were sprung from a prison transfer by Cold's sister. Leonard (Cold) and Mick (Heat) were considered safe enough to jail in a regular prison. Not on our guys. Yeah, they are sketchy about some stuff, but not Captain Cold and Heat Wave.

 

 

Bad Guy Scorecard! Can't tell you're prisoners without a scorecard!

 

*Weather Wizard -- unsure; ultimate custody not mentioned (Pilot)

*Multiplex--thought to be dead; not imprisoned at STARLabs; a multiple could have survived?(Episode2; not prisoner)

*The Mist--captured; imprisoned at STARLabs (Episode 3)

*Captain Cold--at large; never imprisoned at STARLabs (Episodes 4 & 10)

*Plastique-- considered a criminal; thought dead; never imprisoned at STARLabs (Episode 5)

*Girder-- thought to be dead/body at STARLabs; was imprisoned (Episode 6; died Episode7?)

*Clock King--imprisoned in Iron Heights (?), not STARLabs (Episode 7)

*Blackout-- imprisoned at STARLabs; killed at STARLabs (Episode 7)

*Roy G. Bivolo-- unsure, as capture wasn't shown; possibly imprisoned at STARLabs (Episode 8)

*Reverse Flash--at large; stole tachyon device; never imprisoned at STARLabs (Episode 9)

*Heat Wave--at large; imprisoned in regular prison previously (Episode 10)

*Pied Piper--at large; considered a criminal; was imprisoned in STARLabs (Episode 11)

*Peek-a-Boo--imprisoned at STARLabs; considered a petty criminal (Episode 12)

 

Current prisoners: 4- 6, depending on Weather Wizard and Bivolo.

Mist controls his body on a molecular level. Girder is supposedly dead and Wells mentioned doing experiments. Blackout needs bioenergy to survive. Bivolo can control folks' emotions. Piper uses sound wave gadgets. Peek-a-Boo is a line-of-sight transporter.

 

We need Eiling back to cause a ruckus; STARLabs  might could ask for funding and make their prison a legit one. Maybe even with oversight, which would be delicious because Wells acting shifty is a delight.

 

I hope we get Grodd soon, or at least another glimpse. Too bad we don't have Michael Clarke Duncan and that beautiful voice to give Grodd some gravitas. Maybe Ving Rhames?

[Oscirus]

Weather wizard got shot up by Joe so he's likely dead.

Bivolo was shown to be imprisoned at the end of the episode

Blackout was killed but never imprisoned. Unless dead bodies count.

[wayne67]

Weather wizard got shot up by Joe so he's likely dead.

Bivolo was shown to be imprisoned at the end of the episode

Blackout was killed but never imprisoned. Unless dead bodies count.

 

Blackout was the lightning guy? I'm fairly sure Wells probably has the body in a special body bag taking samples to try and replicate Blackout stealing The Flash's powers. Though I have trouble retaining information about this show in the long term so I might be wrong.

Edited February 8, 2015 by wayne67

[benteen]

I understand them being locked up in the superhuman cell, especially if they're murderers but what is the end game?  Keep them in there forever?  Cure them?

 

There's also the issue of Hartley.  The police might not know who he is but they saw him attack a building in that episode.  Then he disappears after a fight with the Flash.  Are you going to tell me that nobody notices that and tries to find out what happened?  It doesn't work like that.

Edited February 9, 2015 by benteen

[bettername2come]

There's also the issue of Harrison Wells.

 

I think you meet Hartley Rathaway.

[AD35]

 

The strangest thing about the inhumanity of the cells is that there's no opposing voice. The only possible main character that could state opposition is Iris.

 

 

I understand them being locked up in the superhuman cell, especially if they're murderers but what is the end game?  Keep them in there forever?  Cure them?

 

While binge watching several eps this past weekend, I saw that Caitlin did indeed state that she wasn't too happy about the idea of working above a prison for super-powered humans, and she's definitely a main character.  Wells also mentioned that the prison (Cisco's idea) was only a temporary measure,  only to hold them til a way was found to take away their powers (another moral question right there).  And on that point I doubt if Wells is in any hurry to do that.

Edited February 9, 2015 by AD35

[wayne67]

While binge watching several eps this past weekend, I saw that Caitlin did indeed state that she wasn't too happy about the idea of working above a prison for super-powered humans, and she's definitely a main character.  Wells also mentioned that the prison (Cisco's idea) was only a temporary measure,  only to hold them til a way was found to take away their powers (another moral question right there).  And on that point I doubt if Wells is in any hurry to do that.

 

Do you remember which episode it was that Caitlin mentioned her concern?

 

Have they been shown to be working on a Cure for Metahumans at all ? Also wouldn't that involve testing it out on the metahumans they already have prisoner which would just bring up a whole bunch of moral and ethical issues. Even if they developed a cure for metahumans what about people like Captain Cold and Pied Piper ? Are intelligent people going to get lobotomised so they wont pose a risk to the public. 

 

I need to stop thinking about the logic gaps of this show.

[AD35]

 

Do you remember which episode it was that Caitlin mentioned her concern?

 

The episode was "Things You Can't Outrun".  In that episode the first person to be imprisoned was Kyle Nimbus (as in nimbus cloud) aka The Mist.  He was on death row and about to be executed when he was transformed. After his transformation he was able to escape and killed several people involved in his conviction including the presiding judge.

 

 

Have they been shown to be working on a Cure for Metahumans at all ? Also wouldn't that involve testing it out on the metahumans they already have prisoner which would just bring up a whole bunch of moral and ethical issues.

 

The closest effort for a reversal that I can remember was at the end of the "Power Outage" episode where Wells takes a blood sample from the body of Farooq Gibran, to find out how he was able to drain Barry's power.  So far no other example or mention of any work by Wells to find a cure.

Edited February 9, 2015 by AD35

[KirkB]

It's one of those lazy writing techniques you often see on TV. Either there will be a future episode where Wells (or Cisco or Caitlin) comes up with a potential cure they need to try on one of the prisoners, indicating they have indeed been working on it the entire time like they said, or else something bad will happen and they will hang a lampshade on the fact they really should have been working on one but weren't.

[bettername2come]

While binge watching several eps this past weekend, I saw that Caitlin did indeed state that she wasn't too happy about the idea of working above a prison for super-powered humans, and she's definitely a main character.  Wells also mentioned that the prison (Cisco's idea) was only a temporary measure,  only to hold them til a way was found to take away their powers (another moral question right there).  And on that point I doubt if Wells is in any hurry to do that.

I noticed watching this ep that Joe is the one that says "Unless we're planning on executing every supercriminal we stop, you geniuses are gonna have to come up with someplace else to hold them."

 

If the team really were looking for a cure, I would think at this point that Wells is doing something to delay them. This is the same team that had a Mirakuru cure in three episodes.

[millennium]

While I do admit that Peekaboo committed crimes, there should be some examination of her motivations and extenuating circumstances before the Flash Gang sentence her to solitary life imprisonment which is usually reserved for death sentence prisoners...

 

It's becoming more than a little uncomfortable that Team Flash is acting as judge, jury and jailer.   Even more disturbing, the biggest thing these meta-humans have going for them by way of a defense is the fact that Dr. Wells, the same person who condemned them to a life of solitary confinement, fucked them up on a molecular level.  

 

I know villains have been warehoused on Arrow too, but at least it's in the hands of shadowy government outfit Argus, so maybe there's an official power authorizing it.   On Flash, it's just Dr. Wells making it up as he goes along.   And none of them, not even Barry, question it.

 

ETA: I guess I should have read a few posts ahead because some of you guys have already voiced what I was wondering.

Edited February 13, 2015 by millennium

[phoenics]

It's becoming more than a little uncomfortable that Team Flash is acting as judge, jury and jailer.   Even more disturbing, the biggest thing these meta-humans have going for them by way of a defense is the fact that Dr. Wells, the same person who condemned them to a life of solitary confinement, fucked them up on a molecular level.  

 

I know villains have been warehoused on Arrow too, but at least it's in the hands of shadowy government outfit Argus, so maybe there's an official power authorizing it.   On Flash, it's just Dr. Wells making it up as he goes along.   And none of them, not even Barry, question it.

 

ETA: I guess I should have read a few posts ahead because some of you guys have already voiced what I was wondering.

I do wonder if Iris might uncover this

as part of her upcoming investigation of Star Labs. Of course, the writers might just stay true to form and make it just about another conflict between her and Barry and it all boil down to "He's The Flash"

.