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S02.E03: XI

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Flint returns to Nassau and encounters a dilemma; Eleanor turns to an unlikely source for help; Rackham works to restore his reputation; Vane gets an unexpected prize.

 

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Holy Smokes!  That was a barn-burner.  So much to love:

  • Most awkward bro-hug ever. (I laughed.)
  • "Mr. Holmes doesn't work here anymore."  (I cheered.)
  • Ned Low's head.  (What goes around comes around ya sick Mofo.)
  • The tense scene between Vane and Low when Low brings him the bribe.
  • Eleanor & Vane having hot thank-you sex.  Da-yum!
  • The look on Max's face when she sees Jack at the door, topped only by the look on Jack's face when he realizes what Anne intends.  I like Jack.  I don't like Max.  So I LOVED that scene.
  • And the cliffhanger . . . wow this show has really sucked me in.
Edited by WatchrTina
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Wow Mr. Low we hardly knew you. But I am cool with you going. Surprised he was killed off so quick but he was too extreme to last too long.

 

Seriously Eleanor what are you thinking? Getting into bed with Vane figuratively and metaphorically is not a good thing. Vane shows you a woman locked in a dungeon and tells you he is going to try to ransom her off with a very powerful and dangerous person and all you can do is look at him like "Oh Vane you bad boy." Also Vane may have killed a psycho who was his enemy but Flint killed his best friend. Do you really want to cross Flint? It is almost painful to see how much she looks out of her depth this season as compared to last.

 

Vane has really played things well so far this season. First with how he has basically stayed out of things with Eleanor and the consortium so that they have no real muscle and appear weak. Now he gets to show his strength and has forced Eleanor to really have to need him. Now he played Low and killed him while getting his ship and crew and Lady Ash.

 

Yeah, Jack is getting his start at his captaincy. Also it seems that the triumvirate have finally reached an accord. Liked Jack's expression the whole time before joining Anne/Max. Man Anne's back looks bad. I'm sure we'll get the story. Judging by Jack's expression he is probably well aware of what happened.

 

Not much Silver and Flint together times this week but that's okay. Silver doesn't look happy with Flint's plan.

 

Next week looks intense.

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Gosh.  This didn't quite work as an episode.  First the good.  Thankfully they got rid of that cartoonish bad guy Low.  I was all but laughing at their attempt to make the bad characterization seem threatening.   He reminded me of Michael Rappaport on Justified last year.  All play acting and no substance to the performance.  He was never believable.   

 

Max continues her manipulations which is fun to watch.  If this was a male character, I wouldn't be shocked if this was the most loved character on the show.  Anne has turned into a deeply moving character.  And Jack is always fun to watch.  Hopefully the show is careful with where it goes from that last sequence.   There is a fine line between conveying a triangle where desires are mismatched and a Penthouse fantasy.  I will wait to see how that is handled.  John continues to be a more involving character with every show and Flint holds as being of steadfast interest despite a bit of a bland personality.  Eleanor is tied into the most problematic part of that show which is Vane.

 

Vane is so badly written and acted it has become an annoyance.  Zach McGowan is doing that same routine that Christian Bale did as Batman.  The attempt to do Clint Eastwood's macho voice comes across as phony.  McGowan was so good in Shameless.  He is a talented actor which is why his choice to play Vane in such a contrived manner is beyond me.  As with the character of Low, the character ends up coming across as an actor play acting.  In the case of Vane, this attempt at the mythic warrior whose only Achilles heel is his love for the woman he punched was already all but ripe for mockery. Add in McGowan's misjudged performance and it is Fabio territory.  When Eleanor and Vane have sex, it has all the sexual tension of one of those bad Cinemax late night shows.  I am not expecting Julie Christie and Donald Sutherland in Don't Look Now.  But I expect something that at least has some tension.  Max and Anne had a sequence earlier in the film and both actresses displayed an intensity and a depth (particularly Clara Paget).  Eleanor and Vane's sequence felt detached.  It felt designed with cynicism as if the only thing needed is for the people involved to be good looking.  It was as shallow as a Harlequin novel. 

Edited by dohe

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I kind of agree with you dohe. I think this show is meant to watch the way I watched last year: best to binge watch the show in one sitting.

I have never liked Vane. To me he seems like a joke; like one of those pirates on the cover of a romance novel, with the long hair, bare chest, ripped abs. Like he's just too damn fine, more Charles Vain to me.

Eleanor this season is coming across like a sixteen year old girl who is over her head. Last season she was more confident; but her father was around and she had Max, now she's off on her own so what does she do? She runs to Vane, how predictable.

Max continues her manipulations which is fun to watch. If this was a male character, I wouldn't be shocked if this was the most loved character on the show.

I totally agree with this. It seems to me that when women act the the way Max is acting they become "annoying." I really don't get it. Max can and does read people very well. She knew Vane's motivation to find out the prize Low had wasn't totally because he wanted to take that prize, but because Low threatened Eleanor. Oh, and I found the sex scene between Vane and Eleanor un-erotic and just plain silly and had no heat at all. Last season's sex scene between Flint and Mrs. Barlow, where she was into it, and he was lying there like, "whatever" was hotter than Vane and Eleanor. Or maybe it's because I want Flint to blow up the fort so I won't have to deal with Vane and his hair extensions.

ETA: One good thing about Vane was putting an end of Ned Low's reign of foolishness with one missing eye and one vacant eye. And that fight between them was pretty brutal, but done well.

Edited by Neurochick
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Hmmm.  I'm surprised by the negativity towards Zach McGowan.  I didn't much like Vane last season but I'm kinda loving him this season.  I love his gravely growl and I had assumed it was his normal speaking voice.  It was only recently that I saw a behind-the-scene's video and realized he's pitching his voice lower for the role.  I like it and I think it works. I also think Vane is a much more believable, multi-dimensional character this season, what with what we've learned of his past and what we've seen of his behavior towards and with regard to Eleanor.  Also I thought the sex scene was very nicely done (and by that I mean it was HOT). So I'm a fan.

 

Just watched the episode a second time and here are a few more things I liked:

  • Did you notice the drawing of a guy holding a severed head on the brochure Lord Hamilton is discussing in the first scene?  Nice little flash-back to the last episode and foreshadowing for the current episode.
  • I loved the exchange between John and the pirate who could not understand why they weren't going to just sail into the bay.  "We're flying the black.  Don't it identify us?"  "You mean behind the giant red crosses on the sails?" 
  • I liked that Max was so good at reading Vane's intentions.  I like that Max negotiated an arrangement that would put Jack and Anne in a position to be able to get back on the water.  She owed them that.  I still don't like Max.
  • Loved this exchange between Max and Vane:  "I found a  way to stop caring about her.  Would you like to know how?"  "No."
  • I also loved the way Vane handled Anne during that awkward conversation, ordering her to "Sit down" when she was reluctant, toasting one of the the guys she had murdered (I got the sense that Vane knows she was the architect of that episode), and then nonverbally signaling her to chill the fuck out when she reaches for her knife.
  • I loved, loved, loved the shot of Vane's crew crawling up the side of Low's ship.  So very creepy.
  • I loved Vane's little glance at the door before delivering that epic line "Mr. Holmes doesn't work here anymore."
  • I thought it was interesting to see the scars on Vane's back.  I don't think we've seen them before.  
  • I thought it was even more interesting to see the scars on Anne's back.  It's clear Max has not seen them before, though Jack has.

 

The show does leave a few unanswered questions.  For example:

  1. Why doesn't it bother Lord Hamilton that there are rumors about his wife's infidelities?  Is that true or did she lie?  If it's true, it makes me wonder again if he might be gay and thus willing to look the other way when his wife seeks her pleasure elsewhere.  Either way, it seems clear to me that Lady Hamilton is a big ole ho.
  2. Did John Silver actually win his way into the hearts and minds of the crew that quickly?  I'm still having trouble believing that becoming the ship's designated shit-stirrer guarantees him a place on the crew, but apparently it did.
  3. Flint tells his crew that the Nassau they knew is "gone"and that Vane and his crew of "barbarians" have created "chaos" on the island.  Let's assume for the moment that Flint's crew succeeds in ousting Vane from the fort.  Eventually they are going to get back onto that Nassau beach.  What are they going to think when they find out that Vane's takeover of the fort was actually just a minor coup that disrupted operations on the island hardly at all?  Aren't they going to get tired of being lied to all the time by Flint?  Or is he counting on the Urca's gold to smooth over any hard feelings on that point?
Edited by WatchrTina
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Vane shows you a woman locked in a dungeon and tells you he is going to try to ransom her off with a very powerful and dangerous person and all you can do is look at him like "Oh Vane you bad boy." Also Vane may have killed a psycho who was his enemy but Flint killed his best friend. Do you really want to cross Flint? It is almost painful to see how much she looks out of her depth this season as compared to last.

 

I think Vane is going to modify his plan. I have to give him more credit than I did over last season and episode 1 here. I don't doubt that's what he wants to do, but I think he will realize that it's not the best course of action. Vane seems more opportunistic. He knows, I think, that the island in Elanor's control is in everyone's best interests.

 

Max continues her manipulations which is fun to watch.  If this was a male character, I wouldn't be shocked if this was the most loved character on the show.

 

 

I don't have a problem with what Max is doing. I think she's more cocky than she should be, but it's no problem for me. 

 

I also think Vane is a much more believable, multi-dimensional character this season, what with what we've learned of his past and what we've seen of his behavior towards and with regard to Eleanor.

 

I wasn't impressed with him in S2E1, but I buy that he's looking at a more big picture. He knows he needs a ship, so he went and got one. He's knows Jack isn't an idiot, so he opened detente there. Obviously, having the fort is useful. 

 

I thought it was interesting to see the scars on Vane's back.  I don't think we've seen them before. 

I thought it was even more interesting to see the scars on Anne's back.  It's clear Max has not seen them before, though Jack has.

 

 

I think the timing of us seeing those was deliberate, though I don't know why. 

 

You know why I know Rackham is legit smart? Because when his girlfriend indicates she wants a threesome, he stfu, and closes the door.

 

We all agree that Vane, Flint, Eleanor, and Anne and Rackham are going to join forces, right? It's going to be the season ender. 

 

Or is he counting on the Urca's gold to smooth over any hard feelings on that point?

 

I think this is the case. Because they've actually seen the gold and are crewing a warship. So, we can go get the gold, but we can't bring it back here. We need to deal with that. I forgot why Flint thought he should deal with this now, then I was like, oh, he has a legit warship. I assume either Elanor will intervene and talk about the hostage and they'll all work together. Because destroying the fortress isn't a good long term plan.

 

I *loved* the flashbacks. Lady Hamilton, I do declare.

 

Hello, I'm Lady Hamilton, I'm here to fuck you. Let's go to the museum first though.

Uh, I don't think that's a good idea because you're married to a prominent officer who is my boss and can ruin my life.

Yes, but I'm Lady Hamilton, and we're going to fuck.

I told the carriage driver to take you back home because it's clearly a bad idea for us to go to the museum because you're married. 

So, we should just fuck in this carriage.

Ok. 

 

I don't know if you all get the idea of 'sex on a stick', but she's knocking on the door of Flint's tiny apartment, and it's like, so obvious. I love it because last season Mrs. Barlowe came off as kind of a kept woman. 

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I could handle ZM pitching his voice lower if he didn't also seem to become allergic to consonants at the same time.  While I can usually understand him enough to know what's going on, the words just blend together in this mumbly mush of gravel.  It's not a pleasant rumble either, I'm around vocal performers all day and the way he pitches his voice for this show just sounds painful.  Like poor Vane just needs the worlds biggest cup of honey lemon tea.

 

As for the character himself, he occasionally does individual actions I like, such as murdering Lowe who I didn't want to keep having to watch as he made me feel physically ill.  But overall, meh.  I just find his relationship with Eleanor creepy.  Also, he gave Max to his crew to rape.  I don't care what the time period is, once you're involved with rape you are on my shit list permanently.  He's gross.  His backstory is no excuse for his reprehensible personality.  And it's not like anyone on this show is a saint, but Vane is just a level of ick that I can't get past.  I'm really disappointed in seeing Eleanor put all her plans in jeopardy for him this season.  He is so not worth it, and aside from killing Lowe, which Flint also probably could have taken care of for her if Vane hadn't, he's done nothing but treat her like shit.  Unless she's playing him, which it doesn't seem like she is going by the actress's choices, it's a real step down for Eleanor's character.

 

I'm really digging Max though.  I've never hated her, but I hated the writing for her last season.  It was so egregiously bad it was one of those cases where I couldn't even hate the character for it, all my ire was reserved for the writers because wow there was just such little effort put towards making her an actual character with believable motivations.  I'm loving getting to see the way her mind works this season.  I think ultimately she's still out for herself first and foremost, but I think she knows she has a good thing going with Anne and Jack at the moment.  Especially if they can make this triad situation work so that Jack doesn't feel left out and bitter.  I think if the right situation came along she could be talked into betraying them, but I actually don't think Jack was right that she wants to drive a wedge between the other two.  It wouldn't serve her any purpose, at least not right now.  We'll see how things develop in the future.

 

I'm normally a scruff lover, but oddly enough Flint in present day does nothing for me while cleaned up past Flint is all kinds of hot.  I'm actually surprised how much I've enjoyed the flashbacks.  Considering how many of them there have been it would be easy for them to feel like they were dragging things down.  And maybe others feel that way, but I've actually found them oddly refreshing.  It's not like Flint was ever a flat character, but seeing who he used to be and just how much he's changed (and how much he hasn't in some ways) is just adding even more depth.

 

I find myself myself wanting more John Silver.  I think I appreciate him because he's just so honest about what a self serving bastard he is.  For a show about pirates there are an awful lot of characters who like to, in one way or another, get self righteous and high and mighty.  And then there's John in the corner going "OK, but really, just give me my gold and I'll get out of everyone's hair...no?  OK, fine.  *deep sigh*  What lies am I selling now and to whom and how does this help me personally."  He's the kind of asshole I can like in a character.

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I could handle ZM pitching his voice lower if he didn't also seem to become allergic to consonants at the same time.  While I can usually understand him enough to know what's going on, the words just blend together in this mumbly mush of gravel.  It's not a pleasant rumble either, I'm around vocal performers all day and the way he pitches his voice for this show just sounds painful.  Like poor Vane just needs the worlds biggest cup of honey lemon tea.

 

As for the character himself, he occasionally does individual actions I like, such as murdering Lowe who I didn't want to keep having to watch as he made me feel physically ill.  But overall, meh.  I just find his relationship with Eleanor creepy.  Also, he gave Max to his crew to rape.  I don't care what the time period is, once you're involved with rape you are on my shit list permanently.  He's gross.  His backstory is no excuse for his reprehensible personality.  And it's not like anyone on this show is a saint, but Vane is just a level of ick that I can't get past.  I'm really disappointed in seeing Eleanor put all her plans in jeopardy for him this season.  He is so not worth it, and aside from killing Lowe, which Flint also probably could have taken care of for her if Vane hadn't, he's done nothing but treat her like shit.  Unless she's playing him, which it doesn't seem like she is going by the actress's choices, it's a real step down for Eleanor's character.

 

I'm really digging Max though.  I've never hated her, but I hated the writing for her last season.  It was so egregiously bad it was one of those cases where I couldn't even hate the character for it, all my ire was reserved for the writers because wow there was just such little effort put towards making her an actual character with believable motivations.  I'm loving getting to see the way her mind works this season.  I think ultimately she's still out for herself first and foremost, but I think she knows she has a good thing going with Anne and Jack at the moment.  Especially if they can make this triad situation work so that Jack doesn't feel left out and bitter.  I think if the right situation came along she could be talked into betraying them, but I actually don't think Jack was right that she wants to drive a wedge between the other two.  It wouldn't serve her any purpose, at least not right now.  We'll see how things develop in the future.

 

I'm normally a scruff lover, but oddly enough Flint in present day does nothing for me while cleaned up past Flint is all kinds of hot.  I'm actually surprised how much I've enjoyed the flashbacks.  Considering how many of them there have been it would be easy for them to feel like they were dragging things down.  And maybe others feel that way, but I've actually found them oddly refreshing.  It's not like Flint was ever a flat character, but seeing who he used to be and just how much he's changed (and how much he hasn't in some ways) is just adding even more depth.

 

I find myself myself wanting more John Silver.  I think I appreciate him because he's just so honest about what a self serving bastard he is.  For a show about pirates there are an awful lot of characters who like to, in one way or another, get self righteous and high and mighty.  And then there's John in the corner going "OK, but really, just give me my gold and I'll get out of everyone's hair...no?  OK, fine.  *deep sigh*  What lies am I selling now and to whom and how does this help me personally."  He's the kind of asshole I can like in a character.

CatMack, I agree with pretty much everything.  I do feel the writing has radically improved for Max, that Flint looks better without the "scruff", and that more John Silver is needed.  The show does not use him anywhere near enough.  The guy is intriguing and pulls you in. 

 

Moving past the complete lack of chemistry between them, the Vane and Eleanor romance is pretty disgusting.  There is something inside me that finds the characterization of Vane insulting.  It is as if they think we will present the super warrior with his shirt off and treating women sternly - the stuff with Anne really bugged me - and that is sexy.   Everything seems so affected.   Neurochick nailed it when she said he looks like "one of those pirates on the cover of a romance novel."  He doesn't seem like a character that is supposed to feel real as much as he feels like a character that is supposed to make people swoon. 

 

As far as the gravelly voice, I could not agree more.  It detracts even more from what is already a poorly written, badly acted cartoon of a character.  What is odd is that is acting 101.  If the focus never leaves how contrived your voice sounds, than you may want to rethink how much you are trying to change your voice.  Everytime "Charles Vain"* talks, I find myself stifling laughs.   

 

Eleanor has shown chemistry with Flint and Max and would no doubt show it with John or Jack or Anne.  With Vane there is a void.  

Edited by dohe

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Hmmm.  I'm surprised by the negativity towards Zach McGowan.  I didn't much like Vane last season but I'm kinda loving him this season.  I love his gravely growl and I had assumed it was his normal speaking voice.  It was only recently that I saw a behind-the-scene's video and realized he's pitching his voice lower for the role.  I like it and I think it works. I also think Vane is a much more believable, multi-dimensional character this season, what with what we've learned of his past and what we've seen of his behavior towards and with regard to Eleanor.  Also I thought the sex scene was very nicely done (and by that I mean it was HOT). So I'm a fan.

 

 

 I have a LOT of issues with Vane and I think CatMack nailed them.   I can't see how Eleanor can sleep with Vane, knowing that last season, he had Max in a shack, naked and tied up for his crew to rape and how Vane stood by and did nothing when Max was gang raped by his crew.  It was Eleanor who actually did something.  

 

Now I know a part of my distaste of Vane is that I'm watching this show in the 21st century; but to me, Eleanor seems shallow just to have sex with a guy who had her ex girlfriend raped.  

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I think this show is meant to watch the way I watched last year: best to binge watch the show in one sitting.

I binge watched last year which was a great way to watch; this year I find I don't want to wait and watch the next day (I rarely watch anything live).  I am really enjoying this season.

 

The only interesting part of the flashbacks for me are Flint's dealings with Lord Hamilton; I'm a sucker for those kinds of conversations and would like to know what turned Flint - I hope it was not just the magical Lady Hamilton.  I cannot stand Lady H, or rather that type of character, the woman that men give up their lives and careers for! priests want to screw her!  Maybe she will be more interesting this season.

 

All the various goings on are interesting and I think overall the actors are doing a decent job in that I'm not sure of everyone's motivations:

 

Max wanting Vane to lift the "black mark" on Jack & Anne - why?  Did she think Jack would go away without Anne?  Max obviously (to me) is using Anne for her own purposes - what exactly?  Max wants money and whatever she views as power but is she planning anything at all?  I even question her telling Vane she still feels for Eleanor; she could be playing that as well.

 

Eleanor - she does seem to running around a bit like a chicken with its head cut off but that could sort of be expected when she has the obvious threat of Lowe and her consortium is grumbling as well.  She needs power backers (hence going to Barlow/Hamilton) and is floundering a bit with a serious threat to her life; no one had been as dangerous as Lowe about challenging her since she put her group together.  Flint's anger that she "let" Vane take over the fort surprised her and I think that's why she went to Vane.  I think she is playing Vane (maybe the way she thinks she should have in the first place).  She goes to him after her former ?assistant tells her she needs to figure out who she can trust and what she wants.  She can't possibly trust Vane; I think she trusts Flint and his vision  Flint admits he killed Gates because of the gold so she KNOWS how far he will go.  How far is she willing to go for this vision of his?  Which leads me to

 

what is the relationship with Flint & Eleanor?  It's almost sibling like to me.  They are an odd kind of partnership and I wonder if there is something in their back stories to explain that.  Why do they trust each other so much?  

 

Vane - he does have feelings for Eleanor but I don't think he would let that interfere with his own ambitions.  Getting rid of Lowe got him a valuable prize and got rid of a threat to the island setup.  He had to realize that Lowe would always be unstable and couldn't really be trusted.  Vane isn't all the way stable either but was more so than Lowe.

 

 

Max being raped but from that crewman's swagger and the words he says to Vane (something like "She's all your now") it seems clear that she has been raped, possibly more than once.  But I don't think it was ever Vane's intention to chain Max to a wall and let his crew have at her.  I think the crew found out about her and they knew she was involved in the disappearance of their money (those pearls were from the ship's account, your realize) so they took their revenge on her.

This is how I remember it.  Vane didn't act like a big damn hero but then he isn't one.  

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Max wanting Vane to lift the "black mark" on Jack & Anne - why?  Did she think Jack would go away without Anne?

I'd like to think that Max was trying to pay Anne and Jack back for "rescuing" (for lack of a better word) her from captivity by Vane's crew by undoing the banishment they had received in punishment.  I think Max is ultimately self-serving and keeping her new partners happy is in her own best interest, but Anne & Jack benefit as well, so that's nice.

 

 

what is the relationship with Flint & Eleanor?  It's almost sibling like to me.  They are an odd kind of partnership and I wonder if there is something in their back stories to explain that.  Why do they trust each other so much?

I interpret it as their having a shared vision that few others seem to share.  They both see the ultimate threat of Spain or Great Britain putting an end to their "Republic of Pirates" and they are trying to put things in place to prevent that from happening.  They want to preserve their power in an independent Nassau -- one that, in the end, is not dependent on Piracy as a way of life.

Edited by WatchrTina
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That's true WatchrTina about Eleanor & Flint; to me it seemed they had a pretty strong bond before the Urca situation came around.  Maybe I'm reading too much into it.  They have an interesting not lovers-sort of friends-need each other for business but seem to like and respect each other relationship.

 

 

Most awkward bro-hug ever. (I laughed.)

 Ha!  So did I.  This season is killing it IMO.

 

 

Did John Silver actually win his way into the hearts and minds of the crew that quickly?  I'm still having trouble believing that becoming the ship's designated shit-stirrer guarantees him a place on the crew, but apparently it did.

I think Flint being Captain again helps, plus Silver was the one who went with Flint to take the warship, which may have earned him some respect.  Gossip is universal and I think they eventually looked at it as entertainment.  There may be legit announcements in with all the gossip too.

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Vane isn't nearly as smart as he thinks he is, but he's probably a smidge or two smarter than Flint thinks he is. I think he's worth the trouble keeping him around, and I don't think Flint assaulting the fortress is the best use of their resources at this time. The best course is some kind of detente. 

 

I'm interested in how Rackham will factor into this, because he knows Vane better than anyone there. 

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This season is quite a bit better than last; better structured, better paced.

 

Sadly the same can't be said of Hannah New. She's managed to rank herself right with Elizabeth Rohm in terms of one-note, single-expression work. The good news is she's only one part of the puzzle this time around.

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I find Vane quite intriguing as a character. No, he's definitely not a "good guy" but he's interesting to me. He's shrewd and plays the game well, just ask Low. Low was a blunt instrument, lots of brutality but no real brains. Vane has both which makes him dangerous. He played it perfectly in first  finding out what prize Low held and then convincing his crew to take it from Low without ever making it about Eleanor. (And I got no complaints about ZM being a nice looking man. It's Hollywood, what do you expect if not attractive actors?)

 

I don't care much for Max, to be honest. It's not that she's manipulative, everyone on this show is. It's more her "I'll use sex to get everything I want" and that we're to believe she's so good at this that otherwise intelligent people can't use their brain afterwards to think for themselves. That's a stretch on the believabilty level to me. Just once, i'd like to see her relate to someone and keep her clothes on while doing it.

 

It always baffles me when Vane gets all of the blame for what happened to Max. He deserves his share, yes, but he wasn't alone in what happened. It was Anne who captured Max and brought her to the crew to begin with. It was crew members who made the heinous decision to beat and rape her, they were hardly told to do it. They did it on their own. Vane did try to have her sent away but the crew stopped it. If we've learned one thing from the show it's that the captain is not a dictator to the crew. The crew can out vote what the captin wants which is why he tried to have her sent off secretly, which Jack failed at. Then Max's own pride kept her from accepting Eleanor's help. It was quite a few elements that led to Max's suffering last season.

 

And that's not even mentioning that she threw in with Silver to start with. Max is not a stupid person, she knows the world that she lives in. She knows the brutality of it and that these are often not nice men. It's like the time Eleanor punched Vane in front of his crew and all of Nassau. Did she really not expect a response to that? Now, please, don't mistake me. I'm NOT advocating violence against women in any regard. I'm just saying that this is the world these characters live in and the writers are staying true to it. It wasn't a happy, pretty place full of chivalrous gentlemen and women's rights. If you lived it in, you knew the rules and knew there would be a price to may for crossing someone.

 

Anyhow, I'm also enjoying the flashbacks. I also usually like scruff but I find clean-shaven Flint way more attractive. He's quite the cutie without the beard. Love his smile.

 

I hope we get Billy back and soon. I've missed him the most. I'd be fine with less Silver, too. He's too much of a weasel. Next week should also be interesting in the showdown between Vane and Flint. I figure Eleanor will side with Flint in the long run. She's wishy-washy that way.

Edited by Garnett7
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So why did Flint write "I'm sorry" on the book he was giving Mrs. Barlowe ?  Did I miss anything ?

 

- Watching Eleanor vs Barlowe was like watching high school student vs seasoned teacher, ie. no contest at all

- Lol at the looks on Max and Rackham's faces before the threesome.

- So John's plan to be part of the crew via becoming the gossip reader worked

- More Flint and Silver please.  I liked the look Silver gave Flint before he left to visit Barlowe

- My money is on no fighting next episode.  The warship and the fort are in a virtual stalemate.

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So why did Flint write "I'm sorry" on the book he was giving Mrs. Barlowe ?  Did I miss anything ?

My thinking is that the "I'm sorry" was for how they left things before he took off in search of the gold - but it could also be for the affair & whatever happened to cause them to move & change their names & what has happened since - I'm really thinking it's an "I'm sorry" for everything especially if you watch his face when Eleanor mentions that she saw her & that she asked about him.

 

Really loved this episode - loved how everything stopped when Flint walked in the doorway of the bar - I did find it interesting when Eleanor was talking to Mrs. Barlowe & she called Flint James that Eleanor didn't seem to know who she was talking about - did she really not know what his first name was?

 

I also love the dynamic between Flint & Silver - we need lots more of these two.

 

Very surprised that Ned is already dead - figured he'd be around for most of the season.   Not surprised that Eleanor went to Vane though- she's going to regret that decision

 

On a shallow note - I for one prefer Flint with scruff than without - for me the way he is now is a heck of a lot sexier than when he was younger (although I do like younger Flint as well)

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Quick question for everyone...am I missing something because I didn't see Max get raped at all during this episode so why are we discussing it here?

 

Moving all the posts about Max specifically to her thread.

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So why did Flint write "I'm sorry" on the book he was giving Mrs. Barlowe ?

I wondered about that as well but now I think it may have to do with his having thrown a monkey wrench in her plans to get him pardoned in Boston.  She was looking for way for the two of them to get off the island and get back to a more civilized way of life.  He pretty much put an end to that plan.

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Very surprised that Ned is already dead - figured he'd be around for most of the season.

 

I think this was a good choice on TPTBs part. Lowe wasn't useful to anyone and largely an annoyance. Keeping around as a fly in the ointment isn't necessary because there's so much else going on. 

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Quick question for everyone...am I missing something because I didn't see Max get raped at all during this episode so why are we discussing it here?
Moving all the posts about Max specifically to her thread.

Lol true, I've written a response to the ongoing discussion here in Max's thread. 

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This season is quite a bit better than last; better structured, better paced.

 

Sadly the same can't be said of Hannah New. She's managed to rank herself right with Elizabeth Rohm in terms of one-note, single-expression work. The good news is she's only one part of the puzzle this time around.

 

Agree with both points. I think the Black Sails writers took the off-season to do an honest accounting of what worked, what didn't and adjusted accordingly. Things are flowing a lot better this season. 

 

And Hannah New really does suck as an actress. Which is a shame because Eleanor feels like she could be the break-out character, but New can't really handle the material at all. In comparison, I feel like Clara Paget, Jessica Parker Kennedy, and Louise Barnes have done a lot with a little, and makes me wish that one of them had gotten the chance to play Eleanor. Okay, maybe Kennedy wouldn't worked for obvious reasons.  

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Flint in present day does nothing for me while cleaned up past Flint is all kinds of hot.

Oh my, yes!  I liked the character Flint in S1, but S2 Flashback Flint is all kinds of must see TV for me.  I think he will be my new TV boyfriend since Timothy Olyphant & Justified are ending soon.

 

I don't get where Eleanor is coming from with her flip-flopping.  If Nassau and the control of trade are so important and if she's supposed to be smart enough to see the long game, are we to believe she just sold out all those plans for some sex with Vane? I agree there is very little chemistry between the two even though they obviously have "history". 

 

Do we know what happened to Lord Hamilton in the current time yet?  I wonder if he is somehow supposed to be related to the real life Sir Wm. Hamilton.  RL Hamilton's notorious wife Emma became Horatio Nelson's mistress and their story kind of echoes the Flint/Hamilton-Barlowe story.

 

Still don't like Max.  I like getting to Anne's story a little more this season. The actress playing Anne sometimes looks like Gwenyth Paltrow in a red wig, so it takes me out of the moment occasionally,

Edited by BusyOctober

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Do we know what happened to Lord Hamilton in the current time yet?

Eleanor's father said something last season.  While he was being held captive at Mrs. Barlow's house he snuck around and found a portrait of Lord and Lady Hamilton and put two and two together.  He revealed his knowledge to Mrs. Barlow saying that the story he heard was that Lady Hamilton had had an affair with Lord Hamilton's best friend and then Lord Hamilton had gone mad (and died i presumed) of a broken heart.

 

The thing is, people don't often go mad or die of a broken heart so I feel certain that the story Mr. Guthrie has heard has become warped in the telling.  I remain open to the possibility that Lord Hamilton is alive.  If he were not alive, I assume Flint would have married Mrs. Barlow so as to give her greater security and status on the island.  I don't think neighborhood children would throw rocks at the wife of one of the more notable local captains nor would her living alone most of the time seem so odd and earn her the label of "witch" if it were known that she was the wife of a sea captain.

 

I've just had a thought.  In the most recent episode Lady Hamilton says that her husband knew there were infidelity rumors circulating about her and did not care.  I had originally thought that must mean he was gay.  But what if he has Syphillis?  The French Pox was rampant at this time.  Maybe that's why he doesn't mind his wife getting some on the side -- he abstains from sex with her to avoid giving it to her and maybe THAT's why he went mad (madness is a symptom).  Pure speculation of course.

Edited by WatchrTina

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Maybe he is impotent. What do you think ?

 

I suppose that is also a possibility but he looks young and healthy so that would surprise me.  Poor Lord Hamilton.  He's only appeared in two episodes and we are already speculating that he is either gay, syphilitic, or impotent.  Maybe he and his lady wife are just 18th century swingers.

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That may be fine for real life, Neurochick, but this is Pirate TV! It's gotta be pretty soapy, right? I want a big dramatic, wig-ripping-off reveal! ;)

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That may be fine for real life, Neurochick, but this is Pirate TV! It's gotta be pretty soapy, right? I want a big dramatic, wig-ripping-off reveal! ;)

 

Okay, here's a theory.  Maybe Lord Hamilton and his wife are into voyeurism.  Maybe he likes to watch while she gets it on with another man.  The issues comes when Lady Hamilton sneaks out to have private sex with the good captain and Lord Hamilton just can't accept that and goes insane.

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Maybe Lord Hamilton and his wife are into voyeurism.  Maybe he likes to watch while she gets it on with another man.

 

Well, hello. How you doin?

 

I assume we have to see Hamilton in present-day show at some point. The flashbacks are regularly occurring, and they cast a pretty 'name' guy for the part. Story wise, both the plots would have to meet at some point. 

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He revealed his knowledge to Mrs. Barlow saying that the story he heard was that Lady Hamilton had had an affair with Lord Hamilton's best friend and then Lord Hamilton had gone mad (and died i presumed) of a broken heart.

 

I might have read that scene wrong but I thought Guthrie implied that Hamiliton killed himself after being put in an asylum. Didn't he say something about how even the asylum couldn't stop Hamilition from hurting himself.

 

There's certainly way more to the story than the rumors Guthrie heard. We know via the flashbacks that Flint was sent especially to keep an eye on Hamilition and report back. It was asked of him if Hamiliton was "mad". From the story Billy was told last season, we know Flint once used his crew and ship to hunt down some English lord and lady just to kill them. I suspect Hamiliton was double-crossed by his peers somehow and he, Flint and Miranda all suffered the fall out..

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I am generally very happy with season 2 so far but I do have a nit to pick.  Why is the Governor's daughter unconscious?  Did the pirates drug her (do they have drugs like that?)  Or was she unconscious when Ned Low's crew took that ship in the first scene of the first episode of the season?  If they found her unconscious, why is she still unconscious?  It's been days since they took that prize.  They needed time to sail back to Nassau, unload the ship, get into a dispute with Eleanor over the condition of the containers, threaten Eleanor, kill the quartermaster, bribe Vane and then, finally, be killed by Vane's men. It doesn't make sense to me that she's still unconscious.  

 

Assuming there is a good reason for it, and assuming that they expect her to wake up -- it's seems extraordinarily cruel to put her in a cell with no windows and no light (the room looked completely dark with Vane entered with the torch.)  If they have any concerns for her well-being (purely from the perspective of protecting her value as a kidnap victim and future source of ransom) then they might not want to subject her to the terrifying ordeal of waking of in a strange place in the pitch black.

 

I get the feeling the writers just didn't want to give her lines yet so they knocked her out.  I'm hoping a better rationale will be revealed.

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I suppose that is also a possibility but he looks young and healthy so that would surprise me.  Poor Lord Hamilton.  He's only appeared in two episodes and we are already speculating that he is either gay, syphilitic, or impotent.  Maybe he and his lady wife are just 18th century swingers.

Lord Hamilton was probably Sheldon Cooper of his time (ie. purely intellectual, without any need for intimacy) and just let his wife do whatever she wanted.

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The late (and not lamented) Ned Low was played by Tadhg Murphy who also played Arne on Vikings (The History Channel).  The funny thing is that Arne, like Ned, has taken an blow to the face and has a blind right eye.  He actually wears an eye-patch as Arne (I'll bet the Black Sails show-runners said "no eye-patches, no parrots on the shoulder, nobody with a hook for a hand" when setting the ground-rules for the show.)  Now I'm wondering if Tadhg actually is blind in his right eye and both show-runners thought,"Hey, I can use that."  If not, that's a really odd coincidence.

Edited by WatchrTina

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Actually, he really is blind in his right eye.

(article mentioning it)

 

I'm so relieved Ned Low is gone, I skipped episode 2 because I couldn't stand him and then binge watched when I read in here he was dead.

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On 2/7/2015 at 10:26 PM, dohe said:

It was as shallow as a Harlequin novel.

 

On 2/7/2015 at 10:57 PM, Neurochick said:

To me he seems like a joke; like one of those pirates on the cover of a romance novel, with the long hair, bare chest, ripped abs. Like he's just too damn fine, more Charles Vain to me.

Having grown up on gothic romance novels, these are the things that I love about this show. The only thing missing so far is the Lusty Female Pirate Captain who is actually a virgin until she's captured and falls in love with a British/Spanish/American Navel Officer. Oh, and she's only a pirate because she needs to raise money to save her father who is being held hostage by some mean guy. She and the Navel Officer will eventually rid the carribean of pirates and save the father and live happily ever after on a plantation in the Carolinas.

I just discovered this show on StarzEncore and am glad I tried it. I'm always trying to find things Mr. AngelKitty and I can watch together.  (He doesn't like my vampire and zombie shows. Speaking of which, now I understand why everyone was surprised to see Vane in The Walking Dead for only a couple of episodes.)

I wasn't going to post since this thread is so old, but then I figured "What the heck?"

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