S05.E05: Episode Five

[Andorra]

 

What was the point of the scene where Tom pondered the knowledge that Bunting was leaving and then, hastily and dramatically, fled his office!  To....meet her and say goodbye?  Huh?  I mean, thank god he didn't go declare his undying love for her but that was just weird.

 

This scene wasn't in the UK version of the episode so I was surprised to see it in the PBS version. I don't know what this was all about either. Creating unnecessary suspense? Did Fellows really want us to believe that Tom would go and hold Sarah back?

 

I think the whole "romantic" turn in the last episodes was ridiculous. Tom never showed any feelings for her and she certainly never behaved as if she was in love with him. Would anyone be so rude to the family of someone you loved? I don't think so.

Also her "don't you despise them?" showed that she has no idea about him. How could she think that? She knows his wife was from this family and that his daughter is their grandchild and will always be connected with them. How could she think he would "despise" them? They gave him a job and a home after their daughter died, how could he despise them? It's ridiculous.

 

 

But imho, Bunting's departure will in fact leave Tom very lonely and isolated. Even though he's become sufficiently "domesticated" that he no longer keenly feels or reacts to the slights and condescension, I think, in fact, her being "driven from Downton" shows him just how badly he'd be treated if he failed to self-censor or took up a cause.

 

I don't think that's the case. Tom learned of course that the dinner table is not a place to fight or have loud arguments, but it is not as if he can't say what he thinks inside the family. We have seen Tom and Robert discuss politics on various occasions now and they are polite and even a bit humorous about it when it is just themselves in the family. And Tom always has the better points!

 

I really don't see where the Crawleys treat him badly or make him feel disrespected. In the contrary, they all tell him how fond they are of him and that they see him as a full  member of the family and that they don't want him to leave. They respect his views, they respect his work. What else would he wish? They even tried to be nice to Bunting, because they thought he would be happy about it! It wasn't their fault that she was such a cow. Robert behaved equally bad of course, but she provoked it in the first place and was worse than he was.

Edited February 3, 2015 by Andorra

[glasscaseofemotion]

Mr. Bricker told Cora in London how he felt about her.  She put him off at that point, and said she doubted they would see each other again.  She's also seen how her husband feels about the situation.  However, despite her knowing how Mr. Bricker and Robert feel, she's repeatedly invited Bricker back to Downton, where she and Bricker flirt and have moments.  She's now invited Bricker back to Downton for more flirting, etc. during a time when both she and Bricker know Robert will not be there. 

 

Cora has been shown to be an intelligent woman.  I can believe she might have not expected that Bricker would be as brash as he was with going to her room, but I don't believe for a moment that her interactions with Bricker were all about some innocent interest in art that he wildly misconstrued.  She wanted his flirtation, intelligent conversation and attention, but never really gave much thought to what her actions meant to him.  Obviously, she has the right to refuse Bricker (and no one has suggested otherwise), but it isn't as if she and Bricker came to that point through some kind of wacky misunderstanding.         

 

I don't doubt that Cora has enjoyed the attention shown by Bricker. It probably reminds her a bit of her youth and being doted upon by potential suitors. Robert seems to not value her opinion and/or takes her for granted. I myself am a married woman of a certain age and too would be flattered if a man told me how smart, pretty, funny, and interesting I am, so I understand that. But, I think Cora had been nothing but above board with her interactions with Bricker. I don't think she was leading him on when she said he could come back to Downton to photograph the della Francesca nor do I think she was thinking deliberately or having any machinations when his visit coincidentally coincided with Robert being away. She may have enjoyed the flirtation, intelligent conversation and attention, but all of that doesn't give him a pass to behave as he did. I'd say it was him being incredibly presumptuous and frankly, behaving like a potential rapist when he did, especially when he wouldn't leave. No means no, Mr. Bricker!

 

The only thing that would have made the tussle on the floor scene even better, though, would be if Isis had suddenly run in and bit Bricker in the backside. Because everyone knows there’s nothing more ill-bred than to steal the affection of another man’s dog!

[Portia]

I'm really rooting for Mary or Anna to be revealed as Green's murderer. That would be all kinds of awesome. If the latter were true, Anna might be afraid of passing on her own murderous tendencies to the children.

[glasscaseofemotion]

What was the point of the scene where Tom pondered the knowledge that Bunting was leaving and then, hastily and dramatically, fled his office!  To....meet her and say goodbye?  Huh?  I mean, thank god he didn't go declare his undying love for her but that was just weird.

 

That was weird! And again, I think it reflects some of JF's weird writing for the characters lately. Didn't they already have an interaction, near his car? Even that one, I wasn't sure what the deal was, and honestly, kind of hoped that he would accidentally throw the car in reverse and run over her. And that would be the end of Bunting.

[glasscaseofemotion]

I'm really rooting for Mary or Anna to be revealed as Green's murderer. That would be all kinds of awesome. If the latter were true, Anna might be afraid of passing on her own murderous tendencies to the children.

 

Honestly, at this point, I'm so bored and it's taken so long, I can't even keep the facts of Green's murder together anymore. Something about a train ticket found in a coat, something about a bus, I think. And I guess Baxter spills something to the police in the next episode, but I don't even remember what she does or does not know.

 

Fellowes really needs to learn how to develop a plot line and then wrap it the f up!

[txhorns79]

She may have enjoyed the flirtation, intelligent conversation and attention, but all of that doesn't give him a pass to behave as he did.

 

I don't know if anyone has argued that Bricker deserves a pass for behaving as he did.  I certainly didn't.  My only point is that Cora wasn't an innocent party here, and Bricker's behavior towards her wasn't coming from nowhere. 

 

 

And I guess Baxter spills something to the police in the next episode, but I don't even remember what she does or does not know.

 

The way this investigation is going, she'll probably tell the police she has a terrible secret about what happened, but the police will wait another three episodes to ask her what she means. 

[ptuscadero]

I haven't been able to stop chuckling about this since yesterday, so I'm just requoting it for posterity. If I could like it a hundred times, I would. Heh heh. Again, not seeing romantic sparks with Mary. I half-expect her to opine in the next episode how (a la "Clueless"), "Charles has become one of my favorite shopping partners!"

No kidding. And then Tony will be all exasperated, like, "He's a disco-dancing, Oscar Wilde-reading, Streisand ticket-holding friend of Dorothy, for heaven's sakes!"

[glasscaseofemotion]

I don't know if anyone has argued that Bricker deserves a pass for behaving as he did.  I certainly didn't.  My only point is that Cora wasn't an innocent party here, and Bricker's behavior towards her wasn't coming from nowhere. 

 

The way this investigation is going, she'll probably tell the police she has a terrible secret about what happened, but the police will wait another three episodes to ask her what she means. 

 

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree about Cora's innocence around the situation. I think she saw it as nothing more than harmless flirting and Bricker saw it as an invitation to get busy. This is nothing new or confined only to the 1920s, though. So many times women are nice to men and then the guy takes it too far and the women ends up getting blamed for the then ensuing situation. "She was leading him on!" "She should have known where this was going." "She asked for it."

 

Needless to say, I think that Robert will hang this over Cora's head for quite sometime, even though it's not like she invited Bricker up to her room for sexy times.

 

At some point, I'm sure his mother will give him a verbal smackdown for his pouting and silent treatment of Cora and that is what I am mostly looking forward to - watching the dowager countess make mincemeat out of him.

Edited February 3, 2015 by glasscaseofemotion

[blackwing]

I don't think Cora ever expressed any romantic intent or flirting towards Bricker.  If nothing else, she has shown that she is almost always a gracious host.  She continually invited Miss Bunting to tea or dinner or whatnot because Bunting was Tom's friend.  So the invites were extended, even though Cora knew that Robert despised Bunting.  Bricker was introduced as a friend of a friend who was interested in their Della Francesca painting.  Cora has been nothing but nice to him, as befits a good hostess.  But I don't see that she ever encouraged him to make a pass at her.  She continually rebuffed him.  She even said to Robert that Bricker was writing a book, and if he included their Della Francesca in the book, that maybe it would increase the value.  I don't think she ever led him on at all.  She was very clear that there was nothing there.  He had no right to enter her bedroom uninvited and unannounced.

 

As for Edith... for all intents and purposes, Marigold is Mrs. Drewe's child.  The Drewes aren't temporarily watching Marigold while the real mother is away on holiday, or until she returns.  The way it was presented to the Mrs. Drewe was that the child was the child of a friend of Edith's who died, and Edith wanted Marigold to be raised in a loving home with other children.  It's not a temporary arrangement.  Mrs. Drewe took her in and is raising her as their own child.  They even told Edith that - "sometimes we forget she's not really one of our own".  Edith has no more maternal rights or claim over the child.  She gave up those rights twice now.  She now wants to renege, and to me it's "too bad, so sad".  

 

The way they are portraying Edith as this desperate birth mother longing to take back her child just doesn't resonate with me AT ALL and I think it is hugely disrespectful to all of the adoptive mothers in the world.  You can't just take away someone's child, and that's what Edith is doing here.  From the very start of this series, I have despised everything about this character, from her perpetual sad sack status to her trolllike appearance to her evil witch's crooked hook nose to her bitchiness with Mary to her loser old men.  I wish she would just up and die.  She should drown in pig mud or get crushed by the war memorial or fall over the railing.  Hate her!

[txhorns79]

I think she saw it as nothing more than harmless flirting and Bricker saw it as an invitation to get busy.  This is nothing new or confined only to the 1920s, though.  So many times women are nice to men and then the guy takes it too far and the women ends up getting blamed for then ensuing situation. "She was leading him on!" "She should have known where this was going." "She asked for it."

 

This type of comment keeps getting brought up.  If I repeatedly flirt with someone who has told me they have a romantic interest in me, how is that "harmless?"  I think Cora has some responsibility in that type of situation.  As I said before, it doesn't excuse Bricker, but I don't think Cora should be absolved of all responsibility either.  I'm happy to agree to disagree.       

 

She continually invited Miss Bunting to tea or dinner or whatnot because Bunting was Tom's friend.  So the invites were extended, even though Cora knew that Robert despised Bunting.

 

I honestly have no clue what Cora was thinking with that invite.  I just assumed she was pissed off at Robert for ignoring her and this was her revenge. 

Edited February 3, 2015 by txhorns79

[amensisterfriend]

to her evil witch's crooked hook nose to her bitchiness with Mary to her loser old men.  I wish she would just up and die.

 

Yes, those of us with imperfect noses, complex sibling relationships and bad luck with the opposite sex all deserve to die! ;) 

 

Seriously, I'd be squarely on Mrs. Drewe's side here if I still cared enough about this storyline to take sides at all. 

[zoey1996]

Well, we all know how it will turn out and I - personally - think it will be the best for child and mother. Marigold will be with her real mother who dotes on her, she will inherit her real father's and mother's money and she will have a good education and all advantages that come with wealth.

The only poor person in this whole thing is Mrs Drewe.

 

 

I don't know if I would go that far.  This isn't Mrs. Drewe's biological child, foster kid or even adopted child.  I would agree that Mrs. Drewe is an innocent party in all this, but I don't think of Marigold as Mrs. Drewe's child.  I view Mrs. Drewe's actions with Marigold as purely a reaction to Edith being overbearing and in the way.         

There may be no legal documents stating that Edith is giving up her parental rights and that the Drewes are legally adopting Marigold, but I think it's open to question, who is Marigold's real mother?  Edith, who gave birth, nursed and cared for, and then gave her to the Shroeders, then took her back and gave her to the Drewes?  Or Margie Drewe, who took Marigold in, and cares and loves her just as she does her biological children?  As an adopted child myself, and soon to be the grandmother of an adopted child, I think saying Marigold will be with her "real mother" is a slap in the face to Mrs. Drewe and to all foster and adoptive mothers to whom the biological heritage is no barrier to love for the children.

Having said that, something needs to soften Mrs. Drewes' hostility to Lady Edith.  If that can happen, Edith would be able to assist Marigold financially and provide her with education, introduction to others who might help her as she grows up and becomes an adult, and so forth.  Edith does need to start realizing that she needs to put Marigold first, and that she currently isn't doing that.  She might think she is, but she just isn't.

[SusanSunflower]

and what of Violet -- who entertained the Prince's courting and, I presume flitation, to the point of allowing him to suggest they run away together -- and accepted the fan -- which she felt the need to keep hidden from her husband -- testimony of how provocative her acceptance would appear. Violet at least was TEMPTED by the Prince's offer  . My goodness, I do not need to defend Cora's "honor" when I suggest she enjoyed Bricker's attention and company at least at first -- and did not banish him despite his repeatedly bringing up his ardor towards her and, in fact, continued to meet with him, even alone. All of which she had every right to do in the expectation that she could control Bricker and was not "in danger" from him -- a reasonable expectation. Unilke others, I don't think Bricker was "about to rape her." 

Robert punishing Cora indefinitely merely reinforces HIS disregard of her as a person.  Wasn't it let known in Season 1 maybe that Cora and Robert had an active and healthy sex life? Do they still? If Violet can entertain a Russian "suitor" why is it unthinkable that Cora might do so also ... she's not that old and Robert treats her like an inert placeholder, my wife, you remember her? No need to to listen when she speaks, much less resist the impulse to openly denigrate her opinion .. Is she now "sentenced" to exactly the privileged married life Violet wants Isobel to avoid in her second marriage, y'know as Violet suffered in her marriage? 

 

eta: Of course the Prince was a prince ... and Bricker's merely an art expert, practically in trade ... times they are a changin'

Edited February 3, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[Llywela]

The way it was presented to the Mrs. Drewe was that the child was the child of a friend of Edith's who died, and Edith wanted Marigold to be raised in a loving home with other children

Not even that - that was the story Edith gave to Mr Drewe, who saw through it and realised the truth. Mrs Drewe was told that it was an old friend of her husband who had died leaving an orphan baby - and Edith agreed to that story, because she had no intention of acknowledging the child in any way, beyond hoping to see her from time to time. As far as Mrs Drewe knows, there is no connection to Edith whatsoever. She adopted an orphan (informally, perhaps, but no less an adoption for that) and is raising the child as her own, a lifetime commitment. From her point of view, the childless spinster lady of the manor came calling one day (not in itself an unusual thing - it was part of the regular routine of the ladies of the house to call on their tenants from time to time), saw the cute little newly arrived orphan, realised she was likely never going to have a family of her own, and became obsessed with this baby she can't have, disrupting the entire family in the process.

 

And it didn't have to be that way, it really didn't.

Edited February 3, 2015 by Llywela

[SoSueMe]

Well, we all know how it will turn out and I - personally - think it will be the best for child and mother. Marigold will be with her real mother who dotes on her, she will inherit her real father's and mother's money and she will have a good education and all advantages that come with wealth.

The only poor person in this whole thing is Mrs Drewe.

And then be sent away to boarding school.

[abbyzenn]

Edith herself doesn't want Mrs. Drewe to know that Marigold is hers.  In that scene from a previous episode when Mr. Drewe says something like Margie thinks you have a crush on me, Edith replies that that is better than the real reason she's so interested in Marigold.  To me this just shows how selfish Edith is.  At this point in the show Mrs. Drewe is Marigold's mother - she is the one raising her and raising her as one of her own. 

Last season when Edith was an the abortionist she talked to Rosamund about how she couldn't keep the baby and she herself even called the baby a bastard so she is well aware of the stigma of being illegitimate.

[ZoloftBlob]

I would be more sympathatic to Edith and her motherhood woes except for a couple reasons.

 

1. Edith wants a solution where she bears no social consequences for bearing a child out of wedlock. She wants Marigold to live with her and be her doll but she doesnt want to be Edith Crawley and her bastard child Marigold Crawley.

 

2. Edith won't make a decision and stick to it. Either she is giving the kid up or she isn't - there's no way she continues this dance with the Drewes, and my genuine concern, if this was a real world situation, is that Edith is currently all about the chase and how she feels as the wronged mother. Once she actually gets the kid, I would expect she'd have fun for a bit and then Marigold would be thrown to the nanny and would see Edith when Edith felt like it.

 

3. While I think we're all supposed to sympathize with Edith's angst, the character who comes off sympathetic here (if paranoid) is Mrs. Drewe. She's been asked to take in a child of a friend of her husband. Because Edith is a twit who sees no need to modify her behavior ever, Mrs. Drewe thinks Edith is chasing her husband and also looking to steal her daughter.

 

I don't subscribe to the view that women who have premarital sex deserve what they get, but all of this really revolves around Edith not wanting to lose  her status  - she wants to have her cake and eat it too.

[Andorra]

And then be sent away to boarding school.

 

That's just Violet's and Rosamund's idea. Edith is clearly against it.

[glasscaseofemotion]

This type of comment keeps getting brought up.  If I repeatedly flirt with someone who has told me they have a romantic interest in me, how is that "harmless?"  I think Cora has some responsibility in that type of situation.  As I said before, it doesn't excuse Bricker, but I don't think Cora should be absolved of all responsibility either.  I'm happy to agree to disagree.       

 

I honestly have no clue what Cora was thinking with that invite.  I just assumed she was pissed off at Robert for ignoring her and this was her revenge. 

 

What is Cora's "responsibility"? I'm genuinely curious and equally as stumped as to what you think it should be?

 

Bricker's only intention in sneaking into her room was to have sex. Why else would he be there? She asked him to leave, three times. Just because he has a romantic interest in her, her telling him to leave made it perfectly clear that was not what she wanted. He admitted as much when he told Robert he wasn't there at Cora's invitation. She could have been flirting with him all night, and as soon as she said "leave" that should have been the end of it.

 

This idea that Cora should have somehow known better or should have seen this coming is making me extremely uncomfortable as it sounds precisely like what is said to rape victims after they are attacked. It even has a name - victim blaming - and is why there are rape shield laws in place.

Edited February 3, 2015 by glasscaseofemotion

[Andorra]

IMO the problem was from the beginning, that Edith was shown no way out. It was either complete isolation and shame or giving the child up. There were no examples in her acquaintance where someone had an illegitimate child and still had friend's or family. There was just no hope for her in her situation, but it was clear from the start that she wanted the child and that it broke her heart to give it up. But it's not only about HER stigma, Marigold would be stigmatized, too, if the truth would come out.

Of course she couldn't imagine the feelings she would have for the child once she had it (and nursed it for 4 months!). That bond is deeper than she could have imagined.

 

And yes, Mrs Drewe bonded with the girl now, too, but there is no way that all parties involved are going to be happy and I still think Edith needs it more and has less to be happy about.

 

IMO Mr. Drewe made the big mistake not confiding in his wife. If he had told her right from the start that he suspected the child was Edith's and that she was paying for her care, things might nove have escalated as much. It wasn't Edith's fault that he didn't. HE was the one who had the idea with his dead friend, she had not asked him to keep her interest in the child a secret, even though she only said it was a friend's child.

 

I think this boarding school idea from Violet and Rosamund is going to be the final straw and Edith will be forced to react now.

[SusanSunflower]

To me, Cora looked in imminent danger of Bricker sitting down in that big armchair and demanding she listen to him about all the reasons she should leave Robert and come away with him ...

[SoSueMe]

That's just Violet's and Rosamund's idea. Edith is clearly against it.

I always thought that all the offspring of the upper classes went to boarding school.

[Andorra]

I always thought that all the offspring of the upper classes went to boarding school.

 

The boys did (poor little things, I think they went to boarding school from the age of 7!!). As far as I know the girls had governesses and - if the parents cared for their education - later went to grammar school.

[glasscaseofemotion]

Just to clarify, I don't assume that Bricker would have raped Cora. But, he had only one reason for having sneaked into her room and it wasn't to discuss paint strokes or the usage of bird motifs in 16th Century Italian paintings. And he most definitely crossed another line when he refused to leave.

 

What is bothering me with the idea that Cora should have seen this coming or not have innocently flirted with Bricker is because that is typically what happens to rape victims after they are assaulted. Their behavior and character is called into question during cross-examination on the witness stand or when they make a rape allegation. "So, what were you wearing that evening?" "Why did you continue to accept invitations to dinner if you knew you weren't interested in him romantically?" "Mr. Rapey says you invited him into your apartment after he dropped you off, why did you do that?" "Had you been drinking that evening" As if the woman's behavior excuses the rapist's actions.

Edited February 3, 2015 by glasscaseofemotion

[Hanahope]

Part of me doesn't understand though, why Mrs. Drewe is "convinced" Edith will give up doting on Marigold when some other shiny object takes her fancy.  Is there some evidence that Edith would be like this, willing to abandon someone whom she was previously interested in, just because?  Has some other local family experienced this that is Mrs. Drewe's proof that Edith will do the same and it will hurt Marigold?

 

I just don't see why Mrs. Drewe is so paranoid about Edith, I mean really, even assuming the whole story was true (about the child being a friend's daughter), would the earl's daughter really steal a pig farmer's child?  What would she do with it?  How could she take it home to family?  Why wouldn't Mrs. Drewe be happy that an orphaned child she is raising caught the eye of the earl's daughter, who's willing to give some time (and probably money down the road) to help her out?

[glasscaseofemotion]

Part of me doesn't understand though, why Mrs. Drewe is "convinced" Edith will give up doting on Marigold when some other shiny object takes her fancy.  Is there some evidence that Edith would be like this, willing to abandon someone whom she was previously interested in, just because?  Has some other local family experienced this that is Mrs. Drewe's proof that Edith will do the same and it will hurt Marigold?

 

I just don't see why Mrs. Drewe is so paranoid about Edith, I mean really, even assuming the whole story was true (about the child being a friend's daughter), would the earl's daughter really steal a pig farmer's child?  What would she do with it?  How could she take it home to family?  Why wouldn't Mrs. Drewe be happy that an orphaned child she is raising caught the eye of the earl's daughter, who's willing to give some time (and probably money down the road) to help her out?

 

I think Mrs. Drewe is just trying to make sense of Edith's extreme over-interest in Marigold (have I mentioned how much I dislike that name?). For her, Edith's behavior is coming way out of left field and I think she is worried that just as much as it started so suddenly, it will end just as abruptly, and I do think she does have the child's interest at heart. She is considering how awful it would be for Marigold to develop a connection to Edith and then be tossed aside.

 

Mrs. Drewe's gut is telling her something is not quite copacetic - hence why she got so worried when she couldn't find Edith and Marigold - but she perhaps she's not the sharpest knife in the drawer to be able to put two and two together. 

[Stella MD]

If nothing else, it certainly doesn't make much sense that she's simultaneously worried that Edith only sees her as a plaything and will lose interest AND that she's so psychotic and overinvested that she's going to steal her. Which is it - she cares too much or too little?

[glasscaseofemotion]

Mrs. Drewe might be grasping at this point. Remember, she also thought that Edith was only doing this because she was interested in Mr. Drewe. She knows something is up, she just can't entirely get her finger on what it is.

[txhorns79]

What is Cora's "responsibility"? I'm genuinely curious and equally as stumped as to what you think it should be?

 

If a guy tells you he doesn't want to be friends and has a romantic interest in you (which Bricker specifically told Cora an episode or two ago), maybe stop flirting with and/or hanging out with him if you don't share that interest?  I didn't think this was a controversial suggestion.   

[Llywela]

I just don't see why Mrs. Drewe is so paranoid about Edith, I mean really, even assuming the whole story was true (about the child being a friend's daughter), would the earl's daughter really steal a pig farmer's child?  What would she do with it?  How could she take it home to family?  Why wouldn't Mrs. Drewe be happy that an orphaned child she is raising caught the eye of the earl's daughter, who's willing to give some time (and probably money down the road) to help her out?

Perhaps because it is creepy to have some woman so wholly unconnected take such a sudden and intense interest in the child. And because that interest is manifesting in the form of stalking, in effect. I think any woman would feel uncomfortable in Mrs Drewe's shoes, and it's worse because there is such a power imbalance between them.

 

If Edith had been able to restrain herself, her interest in the child probably would have been welcomed - a bit of money here and there to help out, weekly visits to see how she's getting on, etc. But that isn't what's been happening. She's been turning up at all hours of the day, on an almost daily basis, getting underfoot, disrupting both Marigold's routine and the daily business of the household, and not taking no for an answer. Edith lacks subtlety. If she could have held herself back even a little, things wouldn't have come to a head like this.

[persey]

The boys did (poor little things, I think they went to boarding school from the age of 7!!). As far as I know the girls had governesses and - if the parents cared for their education - later went to grammar school.

The upper classes didn't go to grammar school.  Grammar school was for the smart middle class and the very exceptional working class individual. 

[Packerbrewerbadger]

I don't think Cora was ever in danger of being raped ( which of course she didn't ask for or deserve and no means no) but I do think she was a Tease using Bricker to feed her ego or else very naive ( and with Shirley MacLaine as her mother that seems a little unlikely) and should not have been surprised that Bricker wanted to take their relationship further. I think he has real feelings for her and she was sending mixed messages saying nothing could happen but continuing to invite him to Downton.

[ZoloftBlob]

What is Cora's "responsibility"? I'm genuinely curious and equally as stumped as to what you think it should be?

 

There's a point where if you aren't interested in the guy and he continues to flirt, you need to lay down the law firmly that you're married and it's not going to happen.

 

Personally I think Bricker was being out of line going to her room. Cora isn't at fault for his actions but she could have been more firm about not being interested.

[glasscaseofemotion]

If a guy tells you he doesn't want to be friends and has a romantic interest in you (which Bricker specifically told Cora an episode or two ago), maybe stop flirting with and/or hanging out with him if you don't share that interest?  I didn't think this was a controversial suggestion.   

 

And if a guy decides to take it upon himself to go into a woman's bedroom, uninvited, and she asks him to leave - not once, not twice, but three times - perhaps he should listen to her and go.

 

I don't think that is a controversial suggestion either.

[txhorns79]

And if a guy decides to take it upon himself to go into a woman's bedroom, uninvited, and she asks him to leave - not once, not twice, but three times - perhaps he should listen to her and go.

 

Which is apropos of nothing, because the question was whether Cora bore any responsibility for why Bricker thought he could show up to her bedroom in the first place.  It doesn't excuse what happened later on, but the answer is "yes."   

[glasscaseofemotion]

There's a point where if you aren't interested in the guy and he continues to flirt, you need to lay down the law firmly that you're married and it's not going to happen.

 

Personally I think Bricker was being out of line going to her room. Cora isn't at fault for his actions but she could have been more firm about not being interested.

 

Why is it Cora's responsibility to remind Bricker that she is married? He's met her husband. The man invited him into his home. Bricker saw him leaving just a few hours previous to him sneaking into Cora's bedroom. In reality, he was entirely taking advantage of the situation of Robert being absent. Bricker would have never tried his b.s. if he were there. Bricker knew precisely what he was doing.

 

OMG, did someone on this thread just call Cora a "tease"? I keep looking at the calendar to make sure I've not time traveled to the 1950s. Holy hell, I'm 45, and I cannot remember the last time someone alluded to a women being a "tease" and for having led a man on! What year is it? 

Which is apropos of nothing, because the question was whether Cora bore any responsibility for why Bricker thought he could show up to her bedroom in the first place.  It doesn't excuse what happened later on, but the answer is "yes."   

 

It seems you've forgotten that Granthams own a rare and valuable painting by della Francesca. Cora hoped to have it included in Bricker's book. Sounds like a reasonable explanation to have invited an art historian into your home.

 

Somewhere in there, though, she was a tease and fully expected him to come into her bedroom that night. I guess I missed that part.

[txhorns79]

Why is it Cora's responsibility to remind Bricker that she is married?

 

Here's the question then, specifically for glasscase.  In your viewing, is there anything at all that Cora did during her interactions with Bricker that may have given him the impression that she had a romantic interest in him?

 

 

It seems you've forgotten that Granthams own a rare and valuable painting by della Francesca. Cora hoped to have it included in Bricker's book. Sounds like a reasonable explanation to have invited an art historian into your home.

 

I haven't forgotten that.  That a legitimate excuse existed to have Bricker back to Downton again is neither here nor there to what I was talking about.     

Edited February 3, 2015 by txhorns79

[SusanSunflower]

And I've found myself wondering who was supposed to be taking that precious photograph and when -- I don't remember seeing a camera or hearing that Bricker was an accomplished photographer (such photos require a lot of very controlled and careful lighting and heavy large-frame cameras) . 

Bricker may have had other happy alliances with other lonely wives over the years -- or -- he may just be a horndog (I really didn't see it) or Cora may have reminded him of his first love -- or -- the sight of her living her life on the shelf may have genuinely grieved him (see the Prince with Violet). 

I don't think Bricker is/was a terrible person but then "Room with a View" is one of my favorite movies. 

Edited February 3, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[ZoloftBlob]

Why is it Cora's responsibility to remind Bricker that she is married?

 

Because if she doesn't want to have an affair, she has to say so. And she was a bit a tease in that she wasn't rebuffing him firmly and continuing to invite him to her home without firmly stating she has no intention of accepting any of his not terribley suble proposals.

[fishcakes]

Which is apropos of nothing, because the question was whether Cora bore any responsibility for why Bricker thought he could show up to her bedroom in the first place.  It doesn't excuse what happened later on, but the answer is "yes."   

 

Whereas I would say the answer is clearly no. At worst, all Cora did was not discourage Bricker very hard, although she did discourage him. He asked if they could have dinner again sometime and she smilingly said, "I doubt it," which I think most sensible people would hear as a polite no. I wouldn't even characterize what she did as flirting with him; it seems to me that he flirted and she allowed it, but she didn't really reciprocate. But even if she had been flirting with him, does that give him the right to creep around in the hall until her maid leaves and then walk into her bedroom uninvited, wearing his robe and slippers? No. I don't even see how this is an issue. No.

[glasscaseofemotion]

Here's the question then, specifically for glasscase.  In your viewing, is there anything at all that Cora did during her interactions with Bricker that may have given him the impression that she had a romantic interest in him? 

 

Honestly, I personally am of the opinion that it is a moot point whether or not Cora gave Bricker the impression that she had a romantic interest in him. I don't think a woman can be a "tease". She showed an interest in a man's opinions , has similar interests, and shows excitement or a gives off a sense of being interested in something that he is also interested in? Perhaps she just wants to genuinely get to know him, enjoys his company and likes the attention (in a non-sexual way) and enjoys their conversation. Remember, it's just an impression. There's lots of ambiguity behind what might be driving Cora's interest and Bricker made a lot of assumptions. Short of her saying "come to my bedroom tonight for sexy times, hot stuff", he was totally wrong.

[txhorns79]

But even if she had been flirting with him, does that give him the right to creep around in the hall until her maid leaves and then walk into her bedroom uninvited, wearing his robe and slippers? No. I don't even see how this is an issue. No.

 

I don't think anyone has suggested that he had the right to walk into her bedroom uninvited. 

 

 

He asked if they could have dinner again sometime and she smilingly said, "I doubt it," which I think most sensible people would hear as a polite no

 

Followed by her inviting him to her house for dinner and overnight stays under the guise of it all being about the painting and art talk.  I think many people would read that as sending mixed signals. 

[glasscaseofemotion]

Because if she doesn't want to have an affair, she has to say so. And she was a bit a tease in that she wasn't rebuffing him firmly and continuing to invite him to her home without firmly stating she has no intention of accepting any of his not terribley suble proposals.

 

Point taken. The next time I have a conversation with a man who shows a mutual interest in something that I like and I've invited him into my home for a discussion of said mutual interest, or perhaps, say to see said mutual interest (maybe said mutual interest is that my neighbor and I both like dogs and I've asked said neighbor over to meet my dog) I will ensure that before he enters our premises, I will state emphatically "I do not want to have an affair!".  Just so we're all clear.

I don't think anyone has suggested that he had the right to walk into her bedroom uninvited. 

 

Followed by her inviting him to her house for dinner and overnight stays under the guise of it all being about the painting and art talk.  I think many people would read that as sending mixed signals. 

 

You keep saying that, txhorns79, but if that is not what you are suggesting, what are you?

[dramachick]

Why is it Cora's responsibility to remind Bricker that she is married? He's met her husband. The man invited him into his home. Bricker saw him leaving just a few hours previous to him sneaking into Cora's bedroom. In reality, he was entirely taking advantage of the situation of Robert being absent. Bricker would have never tried his b.s. if he were there. Bricker knew precisely what he was doing.

 

OMG, did someone on this thread just call Cora a "tease"? I keep looking at the calendar to make sure I've not time traveled to the 1950s. Holy hell, I'm 45, and I cannot remember the last time someone alluded to a women being a "tease" and for having led a man on! What year is it? 

Isn't it crazy? LOL! Cora was only responsible for her own actions, and she didn't do anything improper. She enjoyed Bricker's company and the compliments he paid to her, but she never told him that there was anything more to their relationship than a friendship forged from their mutual love of art. She never caressed him, never kissed him, and never asked him to come to her bedroom. Cora told him to leave, and that's when he revealed himself to be a real jerk.

 

In my personal experience, men will sometimes "go for it," without any encouragement other than a kind word or smile, on the off chance that they might be successful. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't.  Lucky for Bricker in that situation, he lived to go for it another day.

[glasscaseofemotion]

I don't think anyone has suggested that he had the right to walk into her bedroom uninvited. 

 

Followed by her inviting him to her house for dinner and overnight stays under the guise of it all being about the painting and art talk.  I think many people would read that as sending mixed signals. 

 

You are making a huge assumption that Cora was inviting Bricker back into their home "under the guise of it being all about the painting and art talk". She herself said that being included in Bricker's book could increase the value of their painting tremendously.

 

Why not take Cora at her word? If she wanted to be surreptitious, she could have easily not even told Robert that Bricker was coming. Robert was to be away and would have been none the wiser.

[tapplum]

Because if she doesn't want to have an affair, she has to say so.

I believe it's the other way around, actually.

[SusanSunflower]

Mixed signals -- I thought Bricker might well have gotten mixed signals from Robert about his wife's availability until the next afternoon when Robert returned ... People, even high class people, even long married people were sometimes promiscuous, sometimes had affairs ... and discretion ("Behave") was to avoid the servants' prying eyes and gossip ... 

[fishcakes]

For the record and so there are no hard feelings later, I don't want to have an affair with any of you. I just think you're nice.

Edited February 3, 2015 by fishcakes

[Hanahope]

Perhaps because it is creepy to have some woman so wholly unconnected take such a sudden and intense interest in the child. And because that interest is manifesting in the form of stalking, in effect. I think any woman would feel uncomfortable in Mrs Drewe's shoes, and it's worse because there is such a power imbalance between them.

 

I was under the impression that sometimes the gentry did take an interest in a particular child and that usually such interest is welcomed.  Edith became a stalker because Mrs. Drewe was turning her away.

 

I do agree that Edith should have shown a bit more restraint, more regular/set time for visits, and not overstaying her welcome.  We really weren't shown much, but I suppose it is easy to assume that Edith was being a little too obsessive with Marigold, which made Mrs. Drewe uncomfortable.

[Packerbrewerbadger]

I stand by my use of the word "tease" because if the shoe fits....... ( or is that expression too 50's). She knew he was romantically interested and continued to invite him for overnight visits " as long as he behaved himself ". Again if tease isn't the right word , then "using Him " to make her feel better about herself.