S10.E11: There's No Place Like Home

[rue721]

Generally, I don't think it's terrible in terms of who Dean is as a character****, but it's weird to me onscreen. Why do they keep casting actors who are not only much older than the roles they're supposed to play, which I guess is a fairly ordinary thing to do, but casting actors who look/seem at least the same age as Dean is in particular, when the characters' relationship with Dean is based on *not* being the same age or at the same place in their lives as he is? Charlie makes more sense to me than Cole, because I get why Felicia Day in particular is in the part, but to have the same thing come up with both Charlie and Cole in just a handful of episodes or so is just bizarre/funny to me. I mean, Dean isn't and doesn't look like he's a kid, but I don't see him as a doddering old man either! In an episode like this, I'm like, "is Dean supposed to be in his mid-sixties? WTF is this?!" LOL.

 

****Well, I find it funny when he acts like such a grandma, or just like an old fart anyway. Like in this episode how he's all about trying to do a detox AS THE KIDS SAY but is going about it in such an out-of-touch way, like by eating a sandwich on white bread with a big leaf of raw kale. My favorite is still when that shifter baby was crying and he rubbed some whiskey onto his gums. That stuff just makes me laugh, I actually find that stuff endearing for the most part.

[Aeryn13]

 

Before good!Charlie shot the good!Wizard, she said she was sorry and he said, "I forgive you. We both do." Then in the end, Charlie told Dean that she wouldn't let what happened to her happen to him, I think trying to say she'd help him like the good!Wizard had helped her. I think that Dean saying he was sorry and Charlie saying she forgave him, was supposed to echo the good!Wizard/good!Charlie thing again.

 

Still consider that a big fail then. The good wizard is free to forgive Charlie for anything he wants, anything she did to him, that is. The beating Dean took from her is for Dean to forgive. The good wizard can`t do it, Charlie herself can`t do it, noone but Dean.

 

I think the scene was another manifestation of Thompson and his fetish with the character. He wants her to be a sparkly unicorn of goodness and light (but with the proper angsty backstory) but at the same time also the edgy badass, clad in leather who single-handedly wins wars in magical dimensions. That`s why the character was literally split in two people. I don`t know if anyone has ever tried to watch two pornos at once to get off twice as much? but that`s pretty much what the writer did here.

 

But in the end, she is still predomantly his sparkly unicorns so nothing bad sticks to her character. She beats someone up? It wasn`t her fault and needs no acknowledgment whatsoever. She kills someone? That never sticks to her either.

 

Dean on the other hand put this perfect sparkly unicorn in a PINK CAST. The deed was so dastardly, it doesn`t matter that he was defending himself to begin with. Context matters nothing, just think of the pink cast of trauma and sob for Charlie. But there is a silver lining, she forgives Dean from the clouds up on high so yippie, viewers can forgive him, too.     

Edited February 1, 2015 by Aeryn13

[DittyDotDot]

Personally, I didn't need Charlie to forgive Dean in order for me to forgive him. And Charlie asking Dean for forgiveness only tells me how Charlie feels about Charlie, which I don't really care much about either. The only thing that matters to me in that scene is how Dean feels about Dean, so I appreciated Dean's apology because it validated my already forgiving Dean.

 

However, I will say that it was nice that for once someone didn't hold a nonsensical grudge against either Winchester, so I didn't really mind Charlie saying she forgave Dean. If nothing else, I'm reassured that Charlie won't be gunning for Dean in a future episode now--unless she gets possessed, cursed or split in half again, that is. Which is always a possibility. Crap, I went an put my grubby hands all over my one bright shiny thing and now its sullied. Sigh.

[catrox14]

For me the entire problem is that I really don't think Dean did something that needed Charlie's or my forgiveness, just like him slaughtering the murdering rapists, or the murderer in THINMAN, because ALL of those killings were self-defense. 

 

I think it's in character for Dean to feel awful and thinks that he shouldn't be forgiven for hurting Charlie because he clearly cares deeply about Charlie  but Dean was defending himself against Charlie and it was Charlie because she considered bad!Charlie part of herself.  Upon rewatch he actually only hit Charlie a couple of more times beyond their big brawl.  bad!Charlie apparently had enough power and strength to win the war in Oz so even if she was down, that didn't mean she wouldn't get back up again. A broken arm doesn't  prevent one from standing up and hitting with the other hand or stabbing or shooting Dean especially when one is on an adrenline high and fighting to stay alive. So again, even with Dean hitting her when she was down was not THAT problematic for me.

 

The whole thing was so bizarre and a really bad attempt to mirror Dean but was ultimately completely inapt and inept. YMMV

[Julia]

I feel like I'm being dim, or missing the subtext, because what I saw Charlie saying was that he wasn't going to be able to reintegrate his personality unless he accepted id-Dean as part of himself, and unlike Sam she didn't insist on him beating himself up forever. Which is more or less where Captain Kirk ended up, so it's not groundbreaking stuff.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Julia

[catrox14]

I feel like I'm being dim, or missing the subtext, because what I saw Charlie saying was that he wasn't going to be able to reintegrate his personality unless he accepted id-Dean as part of himself, and unlike Sam she didn't insist on him beating himself up forever. Which is more or less where Captain Kirk ended up, so it's not groundbreaking stuff.

 

I think that is what they were going for and it's a completely inapt parallel to Dean's issues IMO. 

 

Dean's problems are born of being essentially infected by bloodlust via a supernatural method by taking on the MoC.  The Mark last season was compelling him to kill and if he didn't kill he was getting sick and dying.  That has nothing to do with Dean's id.  What I keep thinking is that this story was really supposed to be about demon!Dean. I don't know how far ahead they plot and write and or start developing the seeds for an episode, but everything they tried to parallel with Charlie would have been completely appropriate for Dean fighting demon!Dean.   Who knows, maybe all of this is foreshadowing the return of demon!Dean but right now it makes ZERO sense why they are paralleling evil!Charlie with Moc!Dean because they seem to be purposefully not remembering that this is not a battle for Dean's id.

[Julia]

I guess that since the actual MOC was a mark the abrahamic god put on Cain to signal that anyone who killed him was going to get the full wrath of god treatment, I took their adjusted version to be code for the id. The liberties this show takes are a mystery to me sometimes.

[catrox14]

I guess that since the actual MOC was a mark the abrahamic god put on Cain to signal that anyone who killed him was going to get the full wrath of god treatment, I took their adjusted version to be code for the id. The liberties this show takes are a mystery to me sometimes.

 

 

Eh, I think that's giving the writers too much credit for thinking that deeply about the MoC and what it's doing to Dean.  But you never know. 

 

The only thing the show did say was that Dean assumed he was worthy of the Mark because he was a killer, never mind that Dean is was a killer of monsters not humans before taking on the Mark.  (I'll rant about that another time) .  And again, even if that is what they were going for, coding sexual behavior, drinking and unhealthy food as BAD things as they did is just problematic for myriad reasons. demon!Dean that was more like Dean's id run amok.

 

So I really hope they aren't going for ID=EVUL....cause....no the id is our basic instincts. Sex, food, survival - chaos. etc.  Are sex food and survival Bad? Because the dialogue out of Charlie's mouth implied more than a little bit that those things are, not  too mention Deans' 12 step involved the elimination of those things. 

 

It's just so ...ugh.  What were they thinking?

[DittyDotDot]

For me the entire problem is that I really don't think Dean did something that needed Charlie's or my forgiveness, just like him slaughtering the murdering rapists, or the murderer in THINMAN, because ALL of those killings were self-defense.

 

[...]

 

Upon rewatch he actually only hit Charlie a couple of more times beyond their big brawl. Upon rewatch he actually only hit Charlie a couple of more times beyond their big brawl.  bad!Charlie apparently had enough power and strength to win the war in Oz so even if she was down, that didn't mean she wouldn't get back up again. A broken arm doesn't  prevent one from standing up and hitting with the other hand or stabbing or shooting Dean especially when one is on an adrenline high and fighting to stay alive.

 

Well, if he only hit Charlie a couple of times after she was down...if it had been four for five though, then that would be a problem? Exactly how many times can Dean beat on someone that's already down before it becomes problematic? And, once Bad Charlie was down, there was no other option of how to restrain her so they could complete the actual mission? The only option was to continue to punch her to keep her under control? He couldn't have cuffed her or tied up or anything like that? Is that really self defense anymore or is it a bully sucker punching someone that's already down because he can and he wants to? Same with the rapey guys, was it really only self defense that he slaughtered them? Wouldn't regular recipe Dean have only subdued them and only killed them as a last resort? Was he really at the last resort stage?

 

However, I think you're missing the entire point of what I forgive Dean for. I think Dean's responsibility is in him continuing to put himself in the position to lose control, when he knows full well he doesn't have much right now. The rapey guys...eh, Dean didn't know how the Mark had that much control over him, so whatever. But, Marvatron--who I loathe--and BadCharlie--who I could really care less about--he knows he's not in control and still setting himself up for failure anyway. This isn't only a problem of Dean killing folks, but he's also jeopardizing the missions, too. These are Dean's choices, not the Mark and they are the things and what Dean can actually control right now, IMO. So, that's what I hold Dean responsible for. But, I also know he's trying to find a way to get control, and is under an abnormal amount of pressure, so I forgive his foolhardiness right now.

 

Are you under the impression that I actually feel bad for the rapey guys or for Marvatron or for BadCharlie and are angry at Dean for being mean to them. I do not. I'm concerned only about what this is doing to Dean--that it's turning Dean into a mean, angry man that hurts people because he wants to rather than helping them and saving them like he used to. And, I know this isn't what Dean wants for himself, so it's even more saddening. This isn't condemnation, just so you know.

 

 

right now it makes ZERO sense why they are paralleling evil!Charlie with Moc!Dean because they seem to be purposefully not remembering that this is not a battle for Dean's id.

 

I think the parallels weren't with BadCharlie being like the MoC, per se, but the parallels were to how both GoodCharlie and Dean were both looking in the wrong places for a way to control their darker sides--they both were in denial about what they needed to do to find that balance. I'm not convinced it is a battle for Dean's id, but maybe it actually is.

[Julia]

Maybe not so much for it but over it? Because that's what the ego does, and neither Dean nor good Charlie seemed to have access to theirs.

Which puts Dean in a tough position, because as Dean without the goatee he can't defend himself, because clean-shaven Dean only judges (which is what he has Sam for...)

Edited February 1, 2015 by Julia

[DittyDotDot]

Maybe not so much for it but over it?

 

While I agree it should be, I'm just not convinced that's what the show is actually doing. But maybe I'm underestimating the show and they will pull this off in the end. Who knows?

[catrox14]

 

Well, if he only hit Charlie a couple of times after she was down...if it had been four for five though, then that would be a problem? Exactly how many times can Dean beat on someone that's already down before it becomes problematic? And, once Bad Charlie was down, there was no other option of how to restrain her so they could complete the actual mission? The only option was to continue to punch her to keep her under control? He couldn't

 

 

The complaint has been that Dean went too far and was endlessly pummeling poor, defenseless dark!Charlie when she had already shown herself to be quite an even match. She single handedly won the war in Oz. That's a pretty big deal and as much as Dean loves Charlie she was a threat to his life and others. 

 

I do think how far Dean went is something that is being measured on a scale hence my comment about how many more times he hit dark!Charlie. And the reasons for why Dean is fighting dark!Charlie and her power are mitigating factors for why I don't condemn Dean here.  How could he have known that Charlie was really subdued and no longer a threat?   If Dean hits anyone at all, does the bloodlust kick in and the next hit is solely because of the bloodlust?  How can we know unless we seen Dean's mark activated and red. I don't remember if Dean's mark was shown inflamed with dark!Charlie or not.

 

Having Dean be the one with dark!Charlie is a plot contrivance to remind us for the umpteenth time that Dean is "DANGEROUS". Sam allowing Dean to go after Dark!Charlie was as stupid as could be.  And yes I completely understand what they are trying to say about Dean right now.  I just fundamentally disagree with the premise because Dean cannot shoot his other side to stop the Mark like Oz could, because he's not a split person. And if that does surface and Dean does try to off the dark!Dean for the good!Dean then he'll resurrect as a demon, I would think. 

[DittyDotDot]

The complaint has been that Dean went too far and was endlessly pummeling poor, defenseless dark!Charlie when she had already shown herself to be quite an even match. She single handedly won the war in Oz. That's a pretty big deal and as much as Dean loves Charlie she was a threat to his life and others. 

 

I don't believe the complaints were that folks thought DarkCharlie was defenseless. Dean wasn't fighting with DarkCharlie anymore, but had lost himself to pummeling on her because he could and wanted to at that time. Not for the mission, and not because he needed to. He had totally lost himself and didn't even realize what he was doing until Sam yelled at him a couple times. That's not self defense any longer, IMO. I don't think anybody is suggesting that Dean was a big meanie here, but he was irresponsible, IMO. This needs to be a big wake up call for Dean to say he can't be putting himself out there for the time being because he's a liability right now.

[7kstar]

I don't believe the complaints were that folks thought DarkCharlie was defenseless. Dean wasn't fighting with DarkCharlie anymore, but had lost himself to pummeling on her because he could and wanted to at that time. Not for the mission, and not because he needed to. He had totally lost himself and didn't even realize what he was doing until Sam yelled at him a couple times. That's not self defense any longer, IMO. I don't think anybody is suggesting that Dean was a big meanie here, but he was irresponsible, IMO. This needs to be a big wake up call for Dean to say he can't be putting himself out there for the time being because he's a liability right now.

Because Dean is a liability right now, as when the mark takes over he looses control, is exactly the reason why they had Charlie say " I forgive you.  How's that working for you...then prove it."  It wasn't intended to be her denying her part in the issue, but that something needs to be done.  Her joining team help Dean was her way of apologizing at least for me.  It might lead to some danger, but she is willing to help because she knows how it feels to be helpless to stop her bad self. 

 

Dean thinks of Charlie like a little sister and he is protective of her, as she is his adopted sister.  Kiddo is his term of endearment and I don't have a problem with it.  She isn't some majorly younger than him, but Dean feels older because of what he has gone through.  Plus add the fact that he watched her die last season and this one he hurts her because he lost control.  So Dean beating himself up, is normal and it's is go to response anyway. 

 

I know the writers aren't picking this show apart.  They have moved on to the new problem.  They have 8 days to work on this, so knowing what I know about trying to get kids to act and even adults...I can get why they don't see the issues we see.  We have the time to invest in rethinking through the plot and storyline while we have to wait for the next one...I think is is why when you binge watch you don't catch the same problems because your not looking at all the issues you are just moving on.

 

The actors have stated many times "What was that ep about?"  So although I do nitpick some parts, I also shrug my shoulders and just enjoy the moments I do.  Very seldom is their an ep that I hate the entire show. 

 

This show reminds me so much of the original Star Trek with Kirk split in two so maybe that is why I enjoyed it more than some.  JMV  :)

[catrox14]

I think if they were going for the Star Trek episode they should have just made it about Dean, showing Dean's split sides if that is precisely what they wanted. Especially when you have an actor of Jensen's caliber to do the heavy lifting.   Don't weaksauce it with Charlie just to give Felicia Day an episode. And IMO Felicia Day does not have the chops for this.

[Wynne88]

Assuming they actually DO put thought into this stuff - I'm not too sure they don't leave that ambiguity in the episodes on purpose.  Yes, Dean kept beating bad-Charlie up when he didn't have to, but she was 'bad'.  He wasn't picking on some innocent bystander.  It's like when he killed the rapist and his crew.  Maybe he didn't have to . . . but they were 'bad' too.  Even when they have Dean go too far, they're pulling their punches.

[catrox14]

 

Because Dean is a liability right now, as when the mark takes over he looses control, is exactly the reason why they had Charlie say " I forgive you.  How's that working for you...then prove it."  It wasn't intended to be her denying her part in the issue, but that something needs to be done.  Her joining team help Dean was her way of apologizing at least for me.  It might lead to some danger, but she is willing to help because she knows how it feels to be helpless to stop her bad self.

 

So he's going to prove that he's sorry by never hunting again or protecting someone's life for fear of the Mark?  What happens when Sam's life is put in danger as it is bound to be?  Will Dean be forced to not defend Sam for fear the Mark will take over?  Bah....

Assuming they actually DO put thought into this stuff - I'm not too sure they don't leave that ambiguity in the episodes on purpose.  Yes, Dean kept beating bad-Charlie up when he didn't have to, but she was 'bad'.  He wasn't picking on some innocent bystander.  It's like when he killed the rapist and his crew.  Maybe he didn't have to . . . but they were 'bad' too.  Even when they have Dean go too far, they're pulling their punches.

 

I understand why they don't because maybe they can't pull him back but it's muddying the waters and I don't understand what they are trying to have me understand about Dean right now.  So whatever "bad" things he did is mitigated yet it's being treated by Sam,Cas and Charlie as some kind of failing in Dean's character.   Charlie joining team Dean doesn't seem like forgiveness. And really again it's positioning it to me that Dean is fully in the wrong here, and that Charlie is being magnimous by forgiving him, when her actions caused him to go against her in the first place. 

[rue721]

Charlie telling Dean she forgave him wasn't a problem for me, I didn't see any subtext of guilt tripping or castigation there. I think it's natural for Dean to feel bad about breaking Charlie's arm and hitting her, regardless of how "justified" any particular punch or whatever was. Who wouldn't feel terrible about playing ANY kind of part in a friend getting hurt? It sucks enough just to see a friend get hurt and not be able to stop it -- playing any kind of active role in them getting hurt is going to rip a person to shreds. It made sense to me that he would feel like shit, she would want him to stop beating himself up...so their goodbye made sense to me.

 

Plus, as soon as bad!Charlie got reintegrated into good!Charlie, Charlie started hugging Sam and sobbing. I felt terrible for her! And I don't even like her particularly! So I figure that had to have been tough for Dean to see. I mean, he'd just beaten this close friend who was now lying on the ground, bloody and sobbing her heart out. Dean's not a terrible person, obviously that's going to be a knife in the heart for him, he's going to wonder if he could have done something more to have avoided hurting her. (And the answer, because this script is stupid, is YES, good!Charlie could have just taken some Ambien and let Sam and Dean sort out the key thing. But wtvr). It would be grotesque to me if instead of focusing on Charlie getting hurt, Dean wanted an apology from her for her hitting him, too, and was coming up with reasons why him punching her was justified. I don't think that stuff is salient to Dean at all in the context, he's obviously not looking for ways he was done wrong. But in general, I don't see any of the characters trying to pronounce judgment on Dean, they all seem like they're either worried or in denial or both to me, so YMMV.

 

Maybe not so much for it but over it? Because that's what the ego does, and neither Dean nor good Charlie seemed to have access to theirs.

 

But what's wrong with Dean's Id? If his Id is making him want fatty food, booze, and sex, that's completely healthy and ordinary, isn't it?

 

I don't actually think it's his Id driving him to kill or putting him in that disassociated violent trance he goes into nowadays, though. I didn't think that previous to getting the Mark, Dean was secretly sadistic and got off on other people's pain, which is how he seemed to behave when he locked himself in with Metatron in the previous episode and was relishing the idea of torturing him. I think that sadism is coming from the MoC, I don't think that's Dean's Id? And he's had that thing of sort of zoning out when violence starts for years -- like in Adventures in Babysitting, when he and Krissy finally showed up at the confrontation, he froze for a second and had trouble getting his head in the game. But when he would zone out like that before he had the MoC, he would freeze or otherwise *not* get violent, he wouldn't get into a "beating or hacking someone to death" trance like he apparently does now. Idk, I never felt like Dean just ~relishes~ causing pain or violence, even in the sense that Sam used to back when Sam had a bad temper and was driven by his own revenge fantasies because of Jessica's death. That just doesn't seem like his personality.

 

YMMV, I just don't get the sense that Dean is an especially angry person, not previously and honestly not even now. It's not like he was *angry* at bad!Charlie or *wanted* to beat bad!Charlie especially, at least as far as I could tell -- it's that once he started getting violent, he "zoned out" somehow and couldn't stop. But then as soon as Sam got his attention and stopped him, he also didn't seem at all angry or like he wished he could keep going at bad!Charlie or anything, and he wasn't angry with Charlie later. There's barely any heat-up period before Dean goes berzerk, but what I think makes it seem like it's just not about his emotions at all is that there's no cool-down period after one of those fits of violence, either.

[Aeryn13]

 

It would be grotesque to me if instead of focusing on Charlie getting hurt, Dean wanted an apology from her for her hitting him, too

 

This has never been about Dean for me. Of course he wouldn`t even think of it in terms of Charlie baring any kind of responsibility. And even if he did, he`d never in a million years want or expect an apology.

 

However, I, as a viewer, am not Dean. And I wanted such an apology because I would expect it as a sign of common decency as well as being an adult about taking responsibility from Charlie. Also I expected this to give a little more context to the writing and be inclusive from Robbie Thompson. It is clear that this was too high an expectation. But that means that, unrelated from Dean, I see no reason to much respect either the character of Charlie nor her sugar daddy writer for that scene. 

[catrox14]

Charlie has always been a direct person with Dean. She's never minced words.  She condemned Dean for faking the text to Amelia. She had no reticence to tell Dean she loved him in Pac Man Fever. She feels free to call him "bitch" in a fond way. She seemed to always be clear on her foibles.  So why now if she truly thought she had done something wrong herself, would she not apologize to Dean even on behalf of bad!Charlie.  So for me the lack of those words out of Charlies' mouth seem to white washing her role and shifting the onus of the events onto Dean.

 

I sat there during that entire scene fully expecting that when Dean walked over to her in shame, and put his arm around her and said "I'm so sorry" that she was going to say "I'm sorry, too" .

 

But instead we get, "Prove it". So there is no apology from Charlie but then Dean has to prove to her and everyone how sorry he was for being taken over by the bloodlust caused by the Mark. I didn't see her helping Dean as an apology at all.  To me it was being shown as her being so magnanimous with forgiveness and not once to me, does it really acknowledge how she hurt Dean. 

 

So that leaves me with the impression that Dean does not deserve an apology from Charlie and that rankles.

Edited February 2, 2015 by catrox14

[rue721]

But instead we get, "Prove it". So there is no apology from Charlie but then Dean has to prove to her and everyone how sorry he was for being taken over by the bloodlust caused by the Mark. I didn't see her helping Dean as an apology at all.  To me it was being shown as her being so magnanimous with forgiveness and not once to me, does it really acknowledge how she hurt Dean. 

 

I thought her "Prove it" (which I also found irritating, though not for the same reasons I guess) was her attempt at a pep talk. First she does a pep talk attempt with "you're a Winchester" (blech) and then she does a pep talk attempt with "Prove it." Personally, I liked that Dean rolled his eyes at the first and right after the second, when Sam asked if he was OK, said "NO!" YMMV.

[catrox14]

I thought her "Prove it" (which I also found irritating, though not for the same reasons I guess) was her attempt at a pep talk. First she does a pep talk attempt with "you're a Winchester" (blech) and then she does a pep talk attempt with "Prove it." Personally, I liked that Dean rolled his eyes at the first and right after the second, when Sam asked if he was OK, said "NO!" YMMV.

 

I agree it was an attempt at a pep talk but it was still problematic for me in context of everything else. I totally agree with the "You're a Winchester" . WTF? I mean does she even really know anything about what being a Winchester really means? How much pain and suffering and being cursed being a Winchester meant? LOL. Good grief. I hated that line.  I get they were trying to be all "Winchesters YAY!" but no. That's probably not going to help them right now.

[millennium]

I must be immune to Felicia Day's awesomeness because I don't get why she keeps popping up when her acting skills are nil and her relevance to the show weighs in at about the same.

 

Boring.

[Dobian]

Still hating on the Oz lore.

The unintentionally funny thing about this episode is when Sam laid Good Charlie next to Dark Charlie and placed the keys on her chest and they both started glowing, I should have realized that they were obviously fusing them back together, but I got it into my head that they were just sending the two beat-to-a-pulp Charlies unceremoniously back to Oz.  Guess they'd be crawling down the yellow brick road.  LOL.

Edited September 15, 2016 by Dobian

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I'm getting really slack if Dobian is ahead of me now!  :)

Okay, I can deal with Charlie in small doses - so double the Charlie is definitely not double the fun for me.  I think the story itself was a decent concept, but somewhere the execution just fell flat.  As per usual, some random observations:

• I was so confused when they laid out Good Charlie next to Dark Charlie and let put something in Good Charlie's hand while they were both out cold.  Then I figured that was the Inner Oz Key or whatever it was called.  Shouldn't there have been some incantation or something though?  I think Good and Dark (sounds like a candy bar, heh) should have at least been holding hands or something.  
• If bad half Charlie was Dark Charlie, shouldn't good half Charlie be Light Charlie?  Why Good and Dark?  (That makes me laugh just typing that...)  The non-symmetry of their nicknames bothers me.  It should have either been Good and Bad or Light and Dark.  
• Sam was looking particularly fetching in the scene at the bar with LC.  
• How did the Key to Oz get broken?  Was it ever said?  Or was it an "oops, the key is broken so I can't get back to reabsorb my dark half now." type thing.  And hey - wasn't this an episode of Star Trek?  Or was it one of the movies?  I'm pretty sure Captain Kirk had to deal with Dark Kirk at one point.  I'm pretty sure Kirk did the story line better than Good and Dark Charlie too.  
• And so now the Wizard of Oz is the Dark Wizard of Oz....not the harmless balloonist from Kansas we all thought.  Ya know, if Dark Wiz really wanted to make sure Light Clive stayed alive, all he had to do was lock him up in Oz somewhere.  Why send him home at all?  Those Dark Villains - never really thinking things through, huh?
• Hunter Dorothy couldn't tell that the Wiz was Dark?  I'm disappointed in her now.  Thought she was smarter than that.
• So Dark Charlie won the Oz War (what was this war about?  Who were the sides?) all by herself.  Of course she did.  Because whole Charlie is already awesomeness cubed with hand-whipped cream on top.  Therefore, Dark Charlie must by necessity be bad-ass quintupled.  Even MOC Deanmon couldn't win a war all by himself.  (Oh, damn, I think my eyes are stuck in the back of my head from rolling them so hard.  give me a sec....)
• The biggest WTF moment of the episode (I even had to pause and go back to make sure I was seeing this right) was when Dean apologized to Charlie for beating up Dark Charlie (who would have killed Dean, btw, given half a shot) but Charlie never apologized to Dean for her bad-ass dark self beating on him.  WTF?
• The latest book of lore that could possibly help is in Tuscany, so what a convenient excuse to get rid of Charlie again.  Not that I'm complaining about that.  But I am disappointed that the guys aren't going to Italy.  Love that area myself.  It's beautiful. And I'd like to see them digging around some ancient ruins.  And see some Italian girls flirt with them.  (Spoken as an descendant of Italian immigrants.)  :)

On 9/15/2016 at 4:00 PM, Dobian said:

I got it into my head that they were just sending the two beat-to-a-pulp Charlies unceremoniously back to Oz.

If only!

[sarthaz]

I didn't remember caring one way or the other about this episode, but after a rewatch, I see it's one of the worst in the run, starting with the classic writer's trap where a male writer doesn't know how to write a strong female, so he writes all the men she encounters as total morons instead.  Star Trek: Voyager did this for 7 seasons.

And the whole Charlie thing is just too damn much. She's a brilliant hacker with a unique spark that Leviathans can't duplicate?  I can buy that.  Dorklord LARPers think she's hot?  OK, sure.  Hot fairy wants her too?  Erm ... no ...  Her dark side wins the war in Oz?  Wait, what?  And she bests Dean in a physical confrontation? Uh ...

I like the idea of Charlie, but she's a little too Chuck Norris.  In the right context, it works, but here's the thing: Felicia Day isn't a good actress.  That's just a reality.  She was awful in both Buffy and Dollhouse.  She's competent enough to play a version of herself (nerdy hacker/gamer/LARPer), but when you start giving her all those heavy guilt scenes in Pac-Man Fever and then all this Dark Charlie stuff, it's way beyond her skill-set, especially when you pair her against Jensen who does guilt and dark as well as anyone who's ever pretended for a living.

I also like the idea of the Oz mythology, but it never comes together properly.  Didn't the Wizard bring a belt-full of keys with him?  Wasn't paying that close attention.

[DittyDotDot]

The best thing about this episode is the commentary with Phil Scriggia, Robbie Thompson and Felicia Day. They were completely fun, entertaining and informative. Especially when they discussed Sam's hair for at least a minute. ;)

[bettername2come]

I'm so amused by how Dean calls Dark Charlie a dick and a son of a bitch, instead of using female insults. Guess he doesn't feel right applying them to his not-quite little sis, even if she is evil. I'm also far more amused than I should be that Sam said "by whom?" when talking to the good wizard. Look at my boy using proper grammar in a non-academic setting. Dammit, show, stop choking Sam! Dark Charlie was kind of fun for a change of pace. I liked her outfit. I also really enjoyed Sam hugging and comforting regular Charlie. I think they focus more heavily on the Dean/Charlie relationship so much that it's nice seeing them be close too. Plus Sam is a giant who gives amazing hugs. I do think Felicia and Jensen have more chemistry, but I feel like most of the characters who are supposed to be friends to both boys tend closer to Dean than Sam.

On 11/10/2016 at 5:43 PM, DittyDotDot said:

The best thing about this episode is the commentary with Phil Scriggia, Robbie Thompson and Felicia Day. They were completely fun, entertaining and informative. Especially when they discussed Sam's hair for at least a minute. ;)

I must find this commentary. 

[Hanahope]

Felicia Day doesn't do "dark" great, but it was serviceable for this episode, imo.  Sortof hard to believe that Dark Charlie could win a war by herself, when she's in Oz, as she's never been known as a fighter.  I'm sure she learned some techniques in Oz, but I couldn't believe she could really fight toe to toe with Dean.  And for Dean to really believe Charlie that she would just talk to the bank prez, get a confession and turn him over to the police?  Really Dean?  Since when are you that naive?

I also thought that the dark wizard looked like a young Dean, that took me aback for a moment.  So what would have happened if the light wizard died of old age?  Certainly he would at some point?  And then what would dark wizard do?  

And it took them this long to think about sending Cas to find Cain for more info about the Mark and maybe how to remove it?  That said, why would they think Cain knows anything more about how to remove it, other than transferring it to another person, just like Cain did.  Don't you think that if Cain knew how to remove it otherewise, he would have already done so?

[The Companion]

On 1/27/2015 at 9:51 PM, TrininisaScorp said:

I'm fairly meh about Charlie,  but I just love the scenes Felicia has with Jensen.  They are just sweet together.  **Cuddles**

I agree with the sentiment that the difference for Dean is going to be the people in his corner with Sam (of course), Cas and now Charlie.  I love Team Winchester and their loveable strays.  I just hope they get the win.

I think Felicia and Jensen are incredibly watchable together. I specifically love the way that the show has built the Dean and Charlie relationship. I have waxed poetic on why I think Charlie is a great character (I know I am an outlier) but one of the best things for me is watching those two together. 

I also love the expansion of the group. Again, I know that this gets mixed reviews from the fans, but I like the brothers when they have a team/network. They guys have felt so isolated at times. I also think that bringing in someone like Charlie allows for a different perspective to be voiced. 

On 1/28/2015 at 7:55 AM, Pete Martell said:

I'll be in the minority and say I actually sort of liked her work as "bad" Charlie. Not so much at first, but as it went along, I liked her detached demeanor and how she passed this off as just being truthful. I could see why Dean fell for it (the first time anyway). I thought Felicia Day and Jensen Ackles had a good rapport in these scenes. It also showed me why he and Charlie are so close - because he can connect to both sides of her. I'm glad they didn't have her as being wild and slutty, or even worse, trying to seduce Dean. I just wish they'd done more with "good" Charlie so it wouldn't have blurred together.

I agree. I know that Felicia Day is very polarizing and try to remember that I am a fangirl and may see things with rose colored glasses, but I loved that both Charlies were Charlie, if that makes sense. I didn't want some moustache twirling villain Charlie. Both felt like different aspects of the same person. They were supposed to feel like the same person, because they were, at their core. 

If they ever retcon Charlie's sexuality to have her hit on Dean, I may burn everything down. 

 

On 1/28/2015 at 10:39 AM, Demented Daisy said:

It's rare that I say this, but Sam needs to take a firmer hand with Dean.  Some tough love, I think.  He can't keep letting Dean do what Dean says he can do and/or handle.  Because Dean obviously does not have a handle on things.

I disagree with this. I actually like that Sam isn't making decisions that are "best" for Dean or trying to tell Dean what to do here. 

On 1/28/2015 at 3:04 PM, Latverian Diplomat said:

Random stray thought engendered by the writeup:

It occurs to me that Dean's diet might be the most unrealistic portrayal of living on junk food since Jared Padalecki's previous partner in crime, Rory Gilmore.

That amuses me, perhaps more than it should.

Ha! Rory and Lorelai had a lot of unrealistic and enviable fantasy characteristics, but the ability to eat all the junk food and still be skinny was definitely the most enviable. I will say that I have a friend like this in real life. She is a size zero and she eats like second and third breakfastes. 

On 1/28/2015 at 3:52 PM, Latverian Diplomat said:

I would argue that while a very active person can eat more cheeseburgers than average and still be OK, that would be on top of a healthy diet, not in place of it.  And while one would think that Sam and Dean spend a lot of time working out, what we see on the show is actually very sedentary, lots of long car trips and long hours in the library or hotel rooms doing research.

Sigh. My husband is Dean. He literally eats almost exclusively junk food. He has a job where he is moving around a lot, but it also involves a lot of driving and he eats fast food and convenience store food while pounding full sugar sodas and energy drinks and the man HAS ABS. When he does drag himself to the gym, the trainer doesn't believe that he doesn't work out secretly at home. His cholesterol and other bloodwork is infuriatingly perfect. It's a good thing I love him too much to hate him. 

On 1/31/2015 at 7:35 AM, catrox14 said:

And another thing. I really did not like them implying that a healthy libido and being attracted to someone is a"bad" thing by having Charlie's good side not try to flirt with the bartender. Holy crap that is a terrible message.

THANK YOU. This was my only complaint about this episode and it was a huge one. 

On 1/31/2015 at 9:39 AM, Aeryn13 said:

 

Yeah, like "good people don`t enjoy sex, burgers and never drink a drop of alcohol". Gee, seriously? I`m not a health nut food-wise and I don`t think that is a sign of evildom. Like, I enjoy "unheatlhy" wood as well as fruit and salad but I will absolutely not eat that tastes like garbage to me just for the "it is good for you" reason. Yeah, you know what, I`m sure I can find food in the "good for you" group that I like. 

 

First of all, I have the maturity of a middle schooler but I can't stop giggling at the typo here. You should probably make him wrap the unhealthy wood. 😂

But also, I think it is a dangerous and infuriating thing that we treat foods as inherently "good" or "bad" and it contributes to a lot of unnecessary shame. I do think some of the message was about control, rather than evillness, but the message was somewhat lost if that was the case.

On 1/31/2015 at 11:19 AM, rue721 said:

Libido isn't a bad thing, but treating the bartender like she's a sex object there for their personal titillation is. That's entitled as hell. Personally, I didn't like how they were talking about her anyway -- as though ~obviously~ it's open season on harassing her while she's trying to work, that's what she's there for, but because of this health/goody-two-shoes kick, they're laying off "bad" stuff like hamburgers and service workers for now. Blech. Which is why I liked that she seemed so over them the entire episode, lol.

Yes. Flirting with the bartender to see if she is interested and harassing her are two very different things, and I can't imagine GoodCharlie was indicating that she would be harassing the bartender if only she had BadCharlie integration. From what we have see of Charlie, she is completely comfortable openly flirting and going after what she wants, but she isn't predatory. However, Good Charlie treating the bartender like something she is abstaining from was gross to me. Don't forget, as well, that GoodCharlie said she just wanted to PAY FOR COLLEGE FOR THE BARTENDER. Like being a bartender can't possibly be a job someone does because they enjoy it. Like this woman is not respectable. 

On 1/31/2015 at 11:57 AM, Aeryn13 said:

 

I don`t think trying to hit on someone or flirting with them is being a bad person but obviously since Good!Charlie was so good she couldn`t commit such "henious" acts, it was supposed to be. That made me roll my eyes so hard. That always gives me the message that they consider especially women as such delicate, dainty flowers, that it hits them to their very core. As a woman, that just train of thought just annoys me.

 

This. She said she couldn't even flirt and she was stuck drinking club soda. One of the things I like best about Charlie is that she is so comfortable with sex and so sex positive. To put that aspect into DarkCharlie clearly means it was relegated to bad/dark.

I know this show has a weird relationship with sex, so I guess we should just be happy DarkCharlie wasn't hitting on a dog, but the implication that consensual sex would be bad really bothered me. It was a miss in an episode that I otherwise very much enjoyed.

I did love the Wizard being a darker version of his counterpart. I thought it was an interesting take. I loved the duplicate Charlie reveal and thought the episode was fairly enjoyable overall. I agree that DarkCharlie wasn't a perfect metaphor for what Dean is dealing with. This show sometimes has a miss when it comes to its anvils hitting the target. But, I thought it opened some interesting lines of thinking/analysis and overall managed to still stay enjoyable, unlike some "parallel" episodes in the past. 

[Katy M]

On 9/12/2017 at 10:02 AM, Hanahope said:

Sortof hard to believe that Dark Charlie could win a war by herself, when she's in Oz, as she's never been known as a fighter.  I'm sure she learned some techniques in Oz, but I couldn't believe she could really fight toe to toe with Dean.

Don't be ridiculous.  Charlie is just superperfect at everything, so I'm sure that transferred to Dark Charlie as well.

[Theman5440]

Anyone else notice that the house they first run into Charlie in is the same exact house from S8 E18 where the kids are being trained to hunt.