Unpopular Opinions

[Eolivet]

Certainly more than Jessica Brown Findley - I've often wondered how she might feel about that

 

There are nasty rumors in the gossip circles that Brown Findlay was basically cast in that movie because Russell Crowe wanted sexual favors from her, she refused and that's why she hasn't gotten another Hollywood role since. Sybil was never my favorite, but I feel terrible for that poor actress and I can easily believe those rumors are true because: Hollywood.

 

But I don't think she regrets her decision to leave. I read a lovely interview with her several years ago that said Downton took a lot of her time and she wanted to spend more of it with her family. It's too bad -- and I hope it never happens to another Downton actress (or any actress, for that matter).

 

My unpopular opinion is knowing what we know now about Dockery's personal life, I think it's pretty fair to lay the blame at her feet for the lack of onscreen connection between Henry and Mary. If Goode was her friend, he must've tread carefully around her (which explains his performance). But though I liked the pairing, something definitely changed from the season 5 Christmas Special. Though I think Dockery is very talented and very professional, I have to say when I heard the news about her fiance, a lot of things fell into place about her performance this year. I wonder if casting a friend was ultimately a mistake in that regard -- if she would've kept up more of a facade to really sell the romance if playing against an actor she barely knew.

[TheGreenKnight]

Another unpopular opinion: I don’t find Lily James that good of an actress. I haven’t liked her in anything she’s been in (she’s easily the worst part of the new Cinderella), although she is very pretty. Of course, my general disinterest in Rose can’t all be laid at her feet, since the character’s rebellious rich girl problems probably wouldn’t have hooked me regardless. Still, I’m glad she was hastily written out, especially before the final season began.

[Roseanna]

Of course, my general disinterest in Rose can’t all be laid at her feet, since the character’s rebellious rich girl problems probably wouldn’t have hooked me regardless. Still, I’m glad she was hastily written out, especially before the final season began.

Actually Rose wasn't rich as her father lost his fortune. But undoubtedly she was a upper class girl who had nothing to do but have "scandalous" romances (which never become even seemingly dangerous, unlike the Paumuk affair) and finally to get married. I found all that rather boring.

In CS Robert said to Lord Sinderby that Rose would love him if he only let her, obviously meaning that she had a warm heart. But actually that wasn't shown f.ex. in the famous hair style scene where Rose was most of all concerned that her meeting with Atticus' parents wasn't delayed by Edith's grief over Gregson. Of course she hadn't even met Gregson, unlike Edith's family.

So I regard Rose a pretty girl who liked to have fun and who was usually nice towards others. But what kind of character she had in crisis, we were never shown, unlike that of Mary, Edith, Sybil, Matthew, Tom and Bertie.

[Andorra]

I actually don't think JBF is the type for Hollywood glamour anyway. She has a very "artistic" background, she detests public appearances in the limelight (parties etc) and has also said she doesn't want to leave London. I don't think it is possible to make a big Hollywood career if you're not ready to be seen on public events, glamorous parties and cover magazines. So I think her current career with a lot of theatre and a colorful mix of independet movies is just the thing for her. 

 

I'm not a huge fan of Lily James either. I thought her Cinderella was 100% the same person as Rose after her miraculous transformation into a Saint in season 5. I have yet to see if she is able to show more variety than being a pretty and cheerful dummy. 

Edited January 2, 2016 by Andorra

[Rainsodden]

 Maybe Fellowes couldn't get past Tom being Sybil's widower, although good lord, when I read up on the aristocracy, royalty, nobility in Europe and the upper society of the US, nothing is more common than someone's widow or widower marrying a sibling of the departed. But there could have been another nice guy introduced into the picture.

 

For what it's worth (and I came out of lurkerdom to mention this only because I've never seen it come up in any discussion of this) marrying your deceased spouse's sibling was actually illegal in England for a time. By the Downton era, it was legal again--marrying your deceased wife's sister was legal as of 1907, although it wasn't legal to marry your deceased brother's widow until 1921. However, individual clergy still had the right to refuse to perform these marriages, since marrying within these degrees of kinship was proscribed by the Book of Common Prayer. I'm not sure whether or not it would have been viewed as scandalous by society in general, but certainly there were some people who would have been disapproving. 

With that in mind, I could see why Fellowes might decide to avoid it on the grounds of being a bit of a minefield, although it sounds like story fodder to me! 

[Andorra]

The thing is: Allen Leech said in an interview between season 3 and season 4, that Julian Fellows told them, that it actually happened very often to that time, especially in the aristocracy. Allen joked about the idea saying "oh, too bad she's dead... (looking over to the sister) ok, you'll do.You look good in black!"

[Featherhat]

It would still be considered somewhat "eyebrow worthy" in many parts of the UK today. The BCP has been mentioned but would the Catholic Church also not have co sanguinity rules (not to mention marrying an Anglican?). Add in the fact that Tom was a scandalous choice for Sybil anyway and you've got a lot of complications before you consider the emotional ones.

I suspect that unless there was a pressing need, pregnancy, securing money, securing children already born etc then a lot of people finding themselves in that position would simply have had an affair for years.

Tom and Mary could have worked, but I'm glad Fellows never went their since I'm not sure he would have explored any of the meaty areas.

[Tetraneutron]

Actually Rose wasn't rich as her father lost his fortune. But undoubtedly she was a upper class girl who had nothing to do but have "scandalous" romances (which never become even seemingly dangerous, unlike the Paumuk affair) and finally to get married. I found all that rather boring.

In CS Robert said to Lord Sinderby that Rose would love him if he only let her, obviously meaning that she had a warm heart. But actually that wasn't shown f.ex. in the famous hair style scene where Rose was most of all concerned that her meeting with Atticus' parents wasn't delayed by Edith's grief over Gregson. Of course she hadn't even met Gregson, unlike Edith's family.

So I regard Rose a pretty girl who liked to have fun and who was usually nice towards others. But what kind of character she had in crisis, we were never shown, unlike that of Mary, Edith, Sybil, Matthew, Tom and Bertie.

 

We've seen Rose in a crisis plenty of times and she always comes out well. When her father-in-law is about to have his mistress and illegitimate child revealed to everyone, she saves him. When her friend is being blackmailed and is about to ruin the Prince, she gets the Crawleys involved and they all handle it. When her fiancé is framed to look like he cheated on her, she keeps her head, believes him instantly, and deals with it. 

 

In many ways Rose is more of a natural lead character. I wish Fellowes had done more with the Jazz Age and that whole scene because it was yet another way Society Is Changing . But since Fellowes actually likes the old aristocracy, he gently touches up on modernity every time, then runs away screaming. Like how he couldn't keep up Sybil's and Tom's political beliefs, or the desires of the servants to leave service. 

[DianeDobbler]

I don't care if an actor shows variety. I don't think that's a test of an actor. I think believability is, and emotional range, when called upon, not range of characterization. 

 

I can never read about the nobility, artistocracy, royalty and plain old rich of the Downton era without crashing up against this widower marrying his deceased wife's sister. All the time. And vice versa. Even over in America Elizabeth Morrow Morgan's widower married Elizabeth's sister, Constance, after Elizabeth's death (the Morrow sisters were the older and younger sister of Anne Morrow Lindbergh) That generation of Morrow's was fairly contemporaneous with the Downton girls'. I think it must have become scandalous in the second half of the 20th century, because it's all over the place in the 19th century and the first half of the 20th.

Edited January 4, 2016 by DianeDobbler

[staveDarsky]

Recasting is something that used to be done in US shows, but it hasn't happened for decades (outside incredibly minor characters). Like in season one there might be a guest star on one episode and then they might recast the part when they make her a regular character in season 8. For main characters? Never. It's seen as cheesy and soapy. 

 

Unfortunately, once an actor decides to leave, I think killing the character is your only option. 

I can think of only a few cases where they actually recast the character, and in all cases the replacement was never liked as much as the original (Darren Stevens on Bewitched; Miss Ellie on Dallas; Becky Connor on Roseanne). More often than not, shows did what Downton did with Sybil/Rose -- wrote out the original and brought in the new one. They managed to replace two of the characters on M*A*S*H without killing off the original (Trapper John & Frank Burns).

[Llywela]

I can never read about the nobility, artistocracy, royalty and plain old rich of the Downton era without crashing up against this widower marrying his deceased wife's sister. All the time. And vice versa. Even over in America Elizabeth Morrow Morgan's widower married Elizabeth's sister, Constance, after Elizabeth's death (the Morrow sisters were the older and younger sister of Anne Morrow Lindbergh) That generation of Morrow's was fairly contemporaneous with the Downton girls'. I think it must have become scandalous in the second half of the 20th century, because it's all over the place in the 19th century and the first half of the 20th.

My grandfather married his deceased wife's sister in the 1970s, and so did one of my great-uncles. It isn't as uncommon or as scandalous as many people like to think.

[Andorra]

 

I don't care if an actor shows variety. I don't think that's a test of an actor. I think believability is, and emotional range, when called upon, not range of characterization.

 

 

And that's what I don't see in Lily James so far. For me she has only one expression, but the reason could be, that she has been given only one type of character so far. Maybe her Natascha in "War and Peace" will be different. Did someone watch the premiere last night?

[Llywela]

And that's what I don't see in Lily James so far. For me she has only one expression, but the reason could be, that she has been given only one type of character so far. Maybe her Natascha in "War and Peace" will be different. Did someone watch the premiere last night?

I did - a bewildering array of characters to get to know, and none that I found engaging enough to root for! So far Natasha comes across much like the previous characters I've seen Lily James play: a bright, bubbly young thing. I don't know the story but am told the meat of Natasha's story is still to come, so will wait before offering any verdict.

[Greta]

I have learned from this thread that there are people who both coined and employed the term "Chelsie" to describe the Carson/Mrs. Hughes relationship.  My unpopular opinion is that electroshock therapy gets a bad rap; these Tumblrites would thank us for righting their brains after a few zaps.

[Llywela]

I have learned from this thread that there are people who both coined and employed the term "Chelsie" to describe the Carson/Mrs. Hughes relationship.  My unpopular opinion is that electroshock therapy gets a bad rap; these Tumblrites would thank us for righting their brains after a few zaps.

Portmanteau 'ship' names have been around a hell of a lot longer than Tumblr.

[AllyB]

I did - a bewildering array of characters to get to know, and none that I found engaging enough to root for! So far Natasha comes across much like the previous characters I've seen Lily James play: a bright, bubbly young thing. I don't know the story but am told the meat of Natasha's story is still to come, so will wait before offering any verdict.

At this point in the story Natasha is only 13 which isn't clear at all to the viewer as Lily James looks like a woman in her 20s, sporting an unflattering hair style and huge eyebrows. The only clue to the audience that Natasha is a lot younger than the actor playing her is when Prince Boris comments that he is too old for her despite both actors clearly being contemporaries (Boris is played by a man not 2 years older than James). It makes Natasha come across as a somewhat odd simpleton as the immature sexual curiosity she displays is normal for a 13 year old but just weird for a grown woman. War and Peace spans 15 years, so in later episodes Natasha will be closer in age to Lily James, so it's better to wait and judge her performance when she is an adult playing an adult because she is unconvincing as a young teenager.

[amensisterfriend]

After just rewatching, I'm kind of shocking myself by agreeing with the poster who really liked S5. I have a weird fondness for Phyllis Baxter (don't ask!), and this season had some really good stuff for her and Molesley and Carson/Hughes. I found myself liking the stuff with Violet and the Russian prince far more than expected (I am getting so sentimental in my old age!), and even the storyline with Cora and Robert and her would be flirtation with Simon Bricker was more engaging---or at least less awful---than I had recalled. Plus, I really like Rose/Atticus and find Rose a million times more likable this season than I did in S4. And the ultimate UO within this pro-S5 UO is that I found the Edith/Marigold stuff fairly interesting this time around. I do agree that Mary/Gillingham---Mary/anyone really---is dreadful, but that's actually the only part of the season I outright disliked, and there's a whole lot more I did like than expected. But then I'm one of those very few DA fans who still loves a lot about the show overall despite totally getting the criticism :) 

[Greta]

Portmanteau 'ship' names have been around a hell of a lot longer than Tumblr.

Yep, the struggle is real. I have always hated portmanteaus*, but this one just jumped out at me as particularly egregious and cutesy.

 

*except derogatory ones- those can be wonderfully snarky and fun, particularly on soaps.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Greta

[AndySmith]

Is it unpopular to say I prefer Mary over Edith?

[Andorra]

I think it's unpopular, but I share your preference!

[MyAimIsTrue]

I hope Edith finds happiness but I also prefer Mary, ice cold bitch queen attitude and all.

[Crs97]

I prefer Mary.

[mightycrone]

I wish Fellowes had done more with the Jazz Age and that whole scene because it was yet another way Society Is Changing . But since Fellowes actually likes the old aristocracy, he gently touches up on modernity every time, then runs away screaming. Like how he couldn't keep up Sybil's and Tom's political beliefs, or the desires of the servants to leave service. 

 

Yes, yes!  And Edith could have written about it!   When it looked like she was to become a serious writer, I thought that was perfect both for her character (as something of an outsider), and for the time period, but . . . Marigold.  

[Andorra]

My unpopular opinion is, that I really, really can't stand Edith any more. I used to like her (even though I always found her slightly pathetic), but by now she can't utter a single word without me rolling my eyes. This whiny voice, the always sad doe eyes, urgh. I'm so in sync with Mary when it comes to Edith, I think I would kill her if I had to live with her all the time. I like Bertie, but he has my sympathies. She will make his life a living hell with her constant whining. 

[Crs97]

Thank you, Andorra, I thought I was the onlyn one! And to see the show and the articles and comments completely rewrite history to try to prop her up is really making this last season unpleasant for me.

[abbyzenn]

I agree Andorra, I hate Edith.  I don't have a lick of sympathy for her and I'm tired of her constant whinning, woe is me attitude.  Bertie was definitely too nice for her.  Although I do think he was like Edith in being a somewhat misfit, he wasn't a woe is me type of person.

 

My other contrary opinion is that Lily James is a lousy actress with exaggerated mannerisms and facial expressions.  I have to laugh whenever I see her walk - there's a scene in early season 5 when she goes to see Tom at his office - the exaggerated walk cracks me up.

 

During the first season I was taken with Bates and his backstory.  But I certainly lost all interest in  him in season 2.

 

I never really thought about Sybil until I rewatched Season 1 and when I saw the scene where the other half of the cheerful Charlies comes to get money from Carson and Sybil walks into the room in her blue riding outfit and I thought WOW What  a beauty!  I don't get why that whole season was about Mary the great beauty because I don't think she was that but I think it was more because of the hairstyle.  In Season 1 the only one with usually pretty hair was Sybil.

[Roseanna]

My unpopular opinion is that I don't dislike Daisy.

 

I must confess that when I was younger I couldn't understand people like her at all. Since then I have learned that all people haven't the same resources and therefore one can't demand them much.

 

On the basis of Daisy's behavior her basic needs weren't fulfilled as a baby. Not only love, maybe she didn't even got enough food. Probably she wasn't treated fairly.

 

Daisy is right that the system that is unjust. Only she is completely unable to see that her methods only backfire. Instead of attacking individual landowners or asking for their charity she should have either become politically active or better her situation like Gwen.

 

Although Daisy can act stupidly, she had never done anything evil except being not nice to Ivy.

 

Considering her background, she has achieved much more one could expect: she has a profession (cook) and she makes a school exam. She has abilities and only lack courage and initiative, unlike Ivy.

[mightycrone]

I don't understand all the panting over Matthew Goode.  Now, the actor who plays Rose's FIL?  Different story.

[SusanSunflower]

The costume department is doing him no favors -- he's pretty amazingly gorgeous in Death Comes to Pemberley and distractingly attractive in The Imitation Game ... but he's not a big man and next to the padded girth of Robert, Tom and Carson, he looks like a stick figure, particularly since we're used to seeing those other men in the same room with Mary, he looks tiny next to Mary ... Remember how Dan Stevens bulked up  over his run?  ... Much as Julian Overton at 5'10" looked "short" next to Tom Cullen, who I think may be around 6' 5" ... most folks look short next to someone 6'5" ... Cullen also has Tommy Tune legs that go all the way up to his navel ... 

Edited January 28, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[Andorra]

mightycrone,

I'm with you on that. I don't think Matthew Goode particularly attractive and I don't like the way he talks. He slurrs everything he says in such a "I want to be sexy" kind of way that is getting on my nerves.I don't find it sexy at all, just annoying. 

[Artymouse]

Not sure how unpopular this is, but for the most part I hate the way Americans are represented on DA. For the most part, I don't mind Cora, but that "I'm an American, have gun will travel" response to Robert's losing all her money was just nuts. I appreciate that she didn't fly off the handle and start beating him over the head or something, but that blithe response just made her, in my opinion, look like a moron. 

 

And Shirley MacLaine as Cora's mother just grated on my nerves and made me want to hurl things at the TV. She was such the stereotypical ugly American on steroids -- rude and ill-mannered and such a bitch with her "I'm American, I'm all about the future. You British idiots are stuck in the past and it will be your downfall. I can't wait to see the walls crash down around your heads. Nanny nanny boo boo" nonsense..Obviously, I'm paraphrasing.

 

Was it in MacLaine's contract that Martha had to press the point that she was a forward-thinking person in every single scene? As much as I love "Downton," I find Martha the most grating and obnoxious character; I may even dislike her more than Edna Braithwaite, who I wanted to zing with spitballs every time she appeared on screen. 

 

I didn't mind Paul Giamatti's character all that much, but the script still went out of its way to show him as the loud, socially inept guy who tries to introduce himself to the Prince of Wales.

 

Possibly unpopular opinion, not related to Americans: I liked Tony Gillingham a lot in the beginning. I thought he was kind of a tool by the end of last season, but at first I thought he was handsome and had real potential.

[Roseanna]

I liked Tony Gillingham a lot in the beginning. I thought he was kind of a tool by the end of last season, but at first I thought he was handsome and had real potential.

 

I liked Blake better, but even Gillingham was better than Talbot. At least Mary spoke openly with him.

 

But also Gillingham was a victim of a stupid plot. He comes to Downton almost engaged with Mabel, falls at once for Mary, proposes her and when he rejects her, he says that he will never love anyone as he loves her (after meeting her a couple of times - how stupid can a man be?), becomes engaged with Mabel, fires his valet because Mary ask him, breaks his engagement with Mabel because he wants Mary. Etc.

 

Now, what kind of love story this is? There is simply no suspense, if a man becomes at once a woman's slave and there is no real obstacle. Well, in the audience's mind there was the strongest obstacle, namely the memory of Matthew, the perfect match with Mary.  What on earth Fellowes thought when he let Mary start dating so soon?

 

Also, Gillingham has difficulties to decide what he wants (Mabel - Mary - Mabel - Mary - Mabel), or rather what kind of wife he needs, ​for once we see Mabel, it's clear that she is quite right in saying that she and he can be happy together. 

[skyways]

but at first I thought he was handsome and had real potential

 

 

He was handsome and had potential. Unfortunately the writing didn't do him or any of the suitors, even down to Talbot any favors.

[Clanstarling]

I think most of Mary's would-be suitors look alike. If they were side by side in the same room, I know I would be able to distinguish between them. But in my mind they all blur into the same sort of cookie-cutter guy. I can't keep them straight. I guess they're just not my type. Then again, I'm more a downstairs gal than an upstairs one. I like my men less polished and posh.

[Roseanna]

I think most of Mary's would-be suitors look alike. If they were side by side in the same room, I know I would be able to distinguish between them. But in my mind they all blur into the same sort of cookie-cutter guy. I can't keep them straight. I guess they're just not my type. Then again, I'm more a downstairs gal than an upstairs one. I like my men less polished and posh.

 

It's also due to casting. They are all dark. 

 

Also, when Blake was going to inherit a title, there was no more a great difference (and Mary's POV an obstacle) between him Gillingham.  

[tenativelyyours]

Possibly unpopular opinion, not related to Americans: I liked Tony Gillingham a lot in the beginning. I thought he was kind of a tool by the end of last season, but at first I thought he was handsome and had real potential.

 

Yeah I would have liked to see Gillingham be the one to go off and seem to be the one who got away.  Have him go seek his fortune and then bring him back in the way they brought Talbot back this season.  I'm not sure what Fellowes would have done without the interminable what will Mary do with a man plot that dragged for how many episodes.  But I thought that when Gillingham was introduced he and Mary had a nice spark that was believable.  This was a man that she would see differently and find attractive after being with Matthew.  In my mind before her life with Matthew, she would have perhaps felt scorn for a fellow noble down on his luck and getting caught in the whirlwind of change.  After she saw things a bit differently.  With a bit more empathy.  Well for the character of Mary. 

 

And then there is all the silliness that spilled over from the Gillingham tryst. 

 

It was actually a kind of lost opportunity to build Mary's next lasting relationship with a man over more than one season and as Mary gets to know him so do the fans.   I never found the relationship with Blake very credible and it seemed written like one of those Hallmark movies they air every weekend.  Overly contrived effort to have a meet cute semblance and then make him the one who can finesse everything even as he riled Mary.  Just found it a bit tiresome and lacked any real energy. 

[Roseanna]

Yeah I would have liked to see Gillingham be the one to go off and seem to be the one who got away.  Have him go seek his fortune and then bring him back in the way they brought Talbot back this season. 

 

What you mean with "seek his fortune"? Gillingham had no need to seek anything, nor had he a character to do it. He had inherited a title and fortune and now it was his duty to find a wife in order to beget an heir.

 

One can't do anything interesting with that kind of a premise. Therefore he was given a almost-bride whom he treated very badly, unlike Matthew.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Roseanna

[Crs97]

I thought Tony was the first aristocrat we heard have money problems. The estate was being turned into a school (?) due to the estate taxes. He wasn't dirt poor, but I recall him as the first hint things were about to change for the upper crust.

[SusanSunflower]

 

Therefore he was given a almost-bride whom he treated very badly, unlike Matthew.

yes, that was gratuitous ... he really treated mabel shabbily, even if she came back for more and "forgave him" (I guess that's what "true love" looks like to Julian, or something) 

I assumed Gillingham was the end-game and Blake as the necessary "competition" and also ran, so there would be no question but Mary got the "pick of the litter" ... 

but I preferred Blake, who had a career and appeared to have actually learned something during his schooling, and was competent enough to be tasked to visit estates and write reports ... I just prefer smart characters regardless of their relative attractiveness, height or wealth. 

[Andorra]

It's true, that Tony leased out his house to a girl's school, but I actually thought that was a very practical solution. He said they had to lease the house but kept the estate. With the costs for the house gone, he must have been pretty rich. 

[moonb]

      Is it unpopular to say I prefer Mary over Edith?

 

I find both Mary and Edith pretty equally likable/dislikable at this point, but my (maybe) unpopular opinion is that I enjoy it, and even more, I think Mary and Edith's relationship is probably the most realistic, compelling relationship JF has ever written on this show. I agree with all the complaints that he's dropped the ball with various characters, rushed romances, and made silly historical references and so on. But I love the fact that not only are both sisters deeply flawed, they're cruel and/or thoughtless to other people in similar ways, although with different motivations. Mary's haughtiness keeps her from really empathizing with anyone who isn't an intimate of hers - she's really only tuned in to Anna, Carson, Tom and possibly her parents, at least at times. It's not that everyone else isn't a person, per se, but they're not worth her equal attention and consideration. It's not necessarily cruelty in any given situation, just blindness (see: Mrs. Hughes and the wedding plans). Edith has this same blindness, except that it's fed by her family position as the unfavorite.  Instead of developing empathy due to her past ill-treatment, she's gotten blinder to her bad treatment of other people (the Drewes).  That's pretty true-to-life imo; self-pitying people can be the cruelest precisely because they think of themselves as second best, and develop a sense of entitlement due to that.  

 

To add to that, I like the fact that they've grown beyond their constant adolescent meanness and sniping to adult sniping and the occasional detente, like in tonight's episode, without ever becoming close. I'm related to a couple pairs of Marys and Ediths who bring out the worst in each other and always will, and I think the idea that people don't always like or understand their siblings, or their families, is probably the one single thing that JF has gotten right.

Edited February 1, 2016 by moonb

[Andorra]

 

I think the idea that people don't always like or understand their siblings, or their families, is probably the one single thing that JF has gotten right.

 

He wrote that after his own life. He and one of his brothers obviously couldn't stand each other, too. He said once that they're civil now, but still not on good terms. 

[sark1624]

My unpopular opionion is that i dont despise Daisy so much like the rest, i fell sorry for her. I mean, all her life in the kitchen since she was a girl of 13 o 14 yrs, ovbiously you cannot expect that she behaves herself like normal adult person. Those girls only went out of the house when they go to the church and maybe an 1 hr  every day, nothing more. At least Anna, Baxter, Molesley, and the rest of the staff go upstairs, they move inside the house, they heard another persons, they heard conversations about another topics when they are with their employers, etc. Once i read a column about Daisy, and in that column they talk about a book that women wrote in the 40´s o 50´s and she had the same age that Daisy, and she explained how sad was the life downstairs, cleaning all day, sometimes they must go and help the maids and when they entered to the ladys room, those rooms were a disaster; the young ladys left the room full of spilled talc, shoes everywhere, dresses in the floor, etc (we must remember that they changed a lot of times in the day) and people like Daisy or the maids they must clean the room several times on the day.

 

I think that Mary and Edith are the products of their upbringing, sadly the parents treated Mary for too long as the princess of the house, and any child would like to be treated like that, and ovbiously is going to behave in that way. Clearly for wathever reason Mary was the priority for her parents for a long time, mostly of Mary´s life, but the doing that they did a lot of damage to her. As a result of all those  years of favouritism Mary behaved accordingly to that, who doesnt? in some ways she was converted in a spoiled bratt with all the consequences that entails something like that (snobbery, being selfcentered, arrogance, etc). Ovbiously she is a good person, she can be very kind to a lot of people, but in the end her worse traits are explained for her parents education. Tom was right when he told her that she wasnt a princess, in that moment Mary changed and  realized that and stoped with the snobbery, the snipping towards Edith, etc.

 

With Edith is similar, she was always overlooked, and neglected most of her life for her parents, again, only in season 6 they stick up for her more (when they discover all about her and Marigold and the things that she did to keep her daughter close). For that reason in Edith case they made a person insecure and if any person show a little kindness or attention to her she could be easily manipulated, but more important that created a lot of jelaousy towards Mary that motivated the letter to the turkish embassy. Like the poster said above, those person also can be very self centered and selfish but for anothers reasons. 

[Roseanna]

I think that Mary and Edith are the products of their upbringing, sadly the parents treated Mary for too long as the princess of the house, and any child would like to be treated like that, and ovbiously is going to behave in that way. Clearly for wathever reason Mary was the priority for her parents for a long time, mostly of Mary´s life, but the doing that they did a lot of damage to her. As a result of all those  years of favouritism Mary behaved accordingly to that, who doesnt? in some ways she was converted in a spoiled bratt with all the consequences that entails something like that (snobbery, being selfcentered, arrogance, etc). Ovbiously she is a good person, she can be very kind to a lot of people, but in the end her worse traits are explained for her parents education. Tom was right when he told her that she wasnt a princess, in that moment Mary changed and  realized that and stoped with the snobbery, the snipping towards Edith, etc.

 

I agree with most of it. However, Mary wasn't exactly treated as a "daddy's little princess" by Robert but only by Carson to whom she is above others can't do anything wrong. It's always somebody else (Matthew, Gilliangham) who isn't blame and/or isn't worthy of her.

 

Actually Mary was treated as princesses were treated before the WWW1: that her duty was to secure the succession. As Robert and Cora had no son, they evidently persuaded Mary to marry the heir's son, Patrick, in order that Patrick and Mary's son would be Robert's grandson, regardless that she didn't love Patrick. After Patrick died, she was expected to make a brilliant match and that was what she herself also wanted, but she wanted also to choose her husband herself. The only time she rebelled was with Pamuk, although she couldn't of course expect that flirtation with him would lead him to come to her bed uninvited. The experience was a shock who tamed her to accept the society's rules for good. 

 

All in all, I suspect that Mary hadn't experienced unconditional love from her parents, either (maybe only Sybil had). She was loved and admired by them for her beauty and other outer attractive qualities and for the future glory she could bring to her family, but not simply because she was their child.        

[SusanSunflower]

Mary seems to have become "Daddy's Little Girl"  once Robert accepted that no son was likely ... possibly after Sybil was born.  No evidence that Robert had particular concern about any of the girls beyond their marrying well. Eldest children often get more attention. Beyond her marriage to Patrick and producing the eventual heir, it was Matthew's role in "saving Downton financially" that then elevated Mary's position when Matthew declined to be a "silent partner" and wanted a hand in managing Downton ... 

 

Mary may have been Robert's pride and joy for her equestrian skill and eager participation in the hunt ... but if she had just married Patrick and gone off to live "that" life,  if Downton's financials had not failed, if Matthew had not saved Downton ... etc.  Would she and Patrick lived their married life at Downton, admittedly, it's bit late to wonder... but it does factor in Edith's relationship with both Mary and her parents. 

Edited February 1, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[Roseanna]

Jessica Fellowe says in her book that Mary grew up feeling guilty that she wasn't a boy. Because of that she became tougher than usual and she wants to act for the good of the estate. This means finding a rich and influential husband with whom she would get an influential position.  

 

I suspect this explanation. Of course Robert and Cora were disappointed when they didn't got a son who alone could inherit the title and the estate, but why would they be most disappointed with their first daughter? It would make more sense that they would have more disappointed when the second daughter was born and even more when the third daughter was born.

 

As for to act for the good of estate, that would have meant for marrying Matthew, but Mary wasn't ready to it without love. And her marrying another titled and wealthy man wouldn't have helped the estate at all, although it would have been good for the family to have relatives of that kind.

 

As for having an influential position through marriage, that was indeed an aristocratic woman's only career, but when Mary was married with Matthew, she never showed any interest by getting influence even locally by doing charity work for the hospital or school, not speak of becoming a political hostess.       

[Andorra]

I actually doubt it is just Cora's and Robert's fault that Mary has always been the princess of the family. Since they only saw her for an hour every day, most of her upbringing was done by Nannies and governesses. And THEY probably treated the eldest as the princess.

[amensisterfriend]

I have a bunch of recently formed UOs, so please be gentle :) 

 

Most stem from the umbrella UO that I'm really loving this season. Granted, there's plenty I don't enjoy about it: the hospital storyline is tedious and endlessly drawn out at this point, and I don't like that it's resulted in far less Isobel/Violet bonding. Tom returning from America for no apparent reason after *finally* making good on his promise to 'start a new life there' is kind of clunky, and his continued inexplicable transformation from alleged radical into the tamed, chubby housepet who's all "woo hoo, I love aristocratic estates! I want to dedicate my life to living there among the upper classes and making sure it's even more profitable!' is pretty glaring even to someone like me, who was never a huge fan of his. (Still, at least he's pleasant enough, which is more than we can say for a few others.) I don't like Henry Talbot much and don't think he's among the (admittedly few!) characters who makes Mary more likable and relatable to me. Daisy continues to irk me. Edith and Mary's mutual animosity has grown tiresome by now. And..well, yeah, suffice it to say that I understand the criticisms :) 

 

But there's also so much that I love! Thomas' evolution feels believable and touching to me (I realize that's a UO in and of itself), I absolutely ADORE Bertie/Edith (that may be a UO as well...?!), Anna/Bates, while not favorites of mine, are more likable for me this season than they've been since back in S1, I really like all things Baxter/Molesley, Cora/Robert are working for me this season both as individuals and a couple, I love that Carson and Hughes got married, and the grandchildren are ridiculously adorable. 

 

And perhaps the most UO of all: I kind of enjoy Denker and Spratt! 

 

Oh, and a random and shallow UO: I thought Mary looked by far the best with her earlier seasons hair. I actually don't like the much praised bob...and I swear I'm not saying that purely because I also like Mary herself a lot less these past few seasons :) 

[SusanSunflower]

Tom's conversation and role aux-host was "interesting" but would it have been possible, would everyone have been so charmed, if he had not lost any trace (whatsoever) of his Irish accent (not that the Tom we have ever seen was credibly Irish, except by declaration -- unless Tom was raised in England as part of some backstory I've forgotten ... ) etc. 

Would Chamberlain have engaged in small talk with Tom if he'd been sporting an Irish brogue ... even as some vague Crawley son-in-law? 

Edited February 1, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[Roseanna]

I actually doubt it is just Cora's and Robert's fault that Mary has always been the princess of the family. Since they only saw her for an hour every day, most of her upbringing was done by Nannies and governesses. And THEY probably treated the eldest as the princess.

 

That is likely.

 

However, everything doesn't depend on time spent together. I understand that Winston Churchill was ignored by his parents, but he still admired his father and adored her mother. Plus his family background gave him confidence although he didn't succeed in school.