S10.E10: The Hunter Games

[SueB]

Over at Winchester Family Business, faraway eyes gave a nice review that centered around the 'monster vs humanity' dynamic as the unifying themes. This works for me. Claire got the most resolution about taming her inner monster IMO. For Crowley, his humanity is his weakness against his monsterous (and Supernatual) mother. Dean's struggle is the centerpiece.

On third watch, I really appreciate the actress playing Claire. I thought she sold her various emotions very well.

[catrox14]

I am so tired of the monster vs humanity stuff the way Carver handles it because it's just SO MANY ANVILS. Gods it's not clever it's annoying. It's lazy IMO.  I would rather spend 3 bottle episodes of demon!Dean vs Sam discussing whose the real monster than all other werewolves they bring back and the shapeshifters etc. We are smart enough to get it with just Dean fighting his own interntal monster with the MoC! and we got it when Sam was drinking the demon blood back in s4.

 

I don't want to revisit Mommy issues with Crowley because that just makes Crowley something to not really be feared anymore. I don't trust him at all still but don't show me that he's so messed up about his mother 300 years later. It takes away from Crowley's character as being the evil villain.  I just think it's a terrible idea personally. Crowley was fun because he was just evil because he wanted to rule Hell. I want that Crowley back and I don't want him battling his own mother. DO NOT CARE

 

It really bugs me that Cas is now having all this guilt when Jimmy VOLUNTEERED to be Cas' vessel. Jimmy is really the one that should be asking Claire's forgiveness not Cas.  How much better would it have been if they had made her stuff about her experience as  a vessel that messed her up. That she ran away from home because of that instead of her mother abandoning her which NO I DO NOT BELIEVE FOR TWO MINUTES would have happen. How great if Jimmy was still in there and then he apologizes via Cas and then finally really dies. I mean they brought Kevin back as a ghost. Did Jimmy just ceast to exist vs going to Heaven. Maybe Jimmy is in the veil somewhere.  I dunno.  I'm just really bored with Cas story this season.

 

But then we couldn't have parallel anvils on our heads about Crowley having issues because his witch mother abandoned him. And I really did not appreciate the line about her abandoning Fergis was tied to her being a career woman. UM WTF writers. Egads.

[Pete Martell]

I don't want to revisit Mommy issues with Crowley because that just makes Crowley something to not really be feared anymore. I don't trust him at all still but don't show me that he's so messed up about his mother 300 years later. It takes away from Crowley's character as being the evil villain.  I just think it's a terrible idea personally. Crowley was fun because he was just evil because he wanted to rule Hell. I want that Crowley back and I don't want him battling his own mother. DO NOT CARE

 

For me Crowley only works when he isn't entirely evil. He's always been a semi-ally, mostly out for himself, but not too much so. For whatever reason the show decided to try to make him a full villain in season 8, and I thought it was just unwatchable, because he did so many disgusting things (like torturing and mutilating Kevin, and murdering Sarah Blake), with zero repercussion. The tone was way off - oh he's mutilating Kevin and Samandriel, but he has a pinwheel! I think if a character goes that far, they should die. Even now I think Sam and Dean should kill him. Since Crowley is too popular for that, I guess it won't happen. I preferred last season's writing for Crowley (I thought they got the balance just right, locking him in the torture room for half the season being a great idea and the relationship with Dean also being strongly written), but I'll take Rowena over the bromance crap. 

It really bugs me that Cas is now having all this guilt when Jimmy VOLUNTEERED to be Cas' vessel. Jimmy is really the one that should be asking Claire's forgiveness not Cas.  How much better would it have been if they had made her stuff about her experience as  a vessel that messed her up. That she ran away from home because of that instead of her mother abandoning her which NO I DO NOT BELIEVE FOR TWO MINUTES would have happen. How great if Jimmy was still in there and then he apologizes via Cas and then finally really dies. I mean they brought Kevin back as a ghost. Did Jimmy just ceast to exist vs going to Heaven. Maybe Jimmy is in the veil somewhere.  I dunno.  I'm just really bored with Cas story this season.

 

Jimmy volunteered after weeks or months of psychological torture from the angels. They used him and gave no thought to his family. I think Cas realizing this helps give his character more depth. I do agree that I wish we'd seen Jimmy again at some point (I would have had him in Purgatory).

 

This is the first season where I agree with those who say Cas is still just there because Misha is popular. The Claire stuff worked for me in a way Cas/Hannah and TFW didn't, but it's still really not enough. I just wish they'd get some focus for this character.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Pete Martell

[catrox14]

 

Jimmy volunteered after weeks or months of psychological torture from the angels. They used him and gave no thought to his family. I think Cas realizing this helps give his character more depth. I do agree that I wish we'd seen Jimmy again at some point (I would have had him in Purgatory).

 

I don't remember any psychological torment. Jimmy was a devout and praying man. Castiel was trying to talk to Jimmy like he was trying to talk to Dean in Lazarus Rising. Jimmy was  beginning to think he was delusional and he was taking meds because he was seeing and hearing things. But I don't remember Castiel doing anything like what Zachariah did to Dean or Lucifer did to Sam to get their consent to be vessels. Jimmy put his own hand in boiling water to prove that the angels were protecting him from harm and then he consented as long as his family was safe which is what Castiel had promised.

 

Claire might have a beef because she was so young and could she really give consent? I think that would have been the better way to go, but did they even mention that Claire had been Cas' vessel for 10 minutes?

Edited January 26, 2015 by catrox14

[Pete Martell]

I don't remember any psychological torment. Jimmy was a devout and praying man. Castiel was trying to talk to Jimmy like he was trying to talk to Dean in Lazarus Rising. Jimmy was  beginning to think he was delusional and he was taking meds because he was seeing and hearing things. But I don't remember Castiel doing anything like what Zachariah did to Dean or Lucifer did to Sam to get their consent to be vessels. Jimmy put his own hand in boiling water to prove that the angels were protecting him from harm and then he consented as long as his family was safe which is what Castiel had promised.

 

Everything with Jimmy holding his ears and screaming in pain at what was coming through the TV, putting his hand in the boiling water because he was told to do so, etc. felt like conditioning to me. It always made me very uneasy. 

[7kstar]

I think most of Metatron's appearances have been fairly logical by this show's standards. I didn't believe he would have fooled Cas so easily in season 8, but otherwise, he's mostly only appeared a few times a season, and has always been written as a desperately insecure lunatic who gets away with a lot of things because of being underestimated. Now he doesn't have any real power, but his role of pure malevolence on a show drowning in ambiguity still provides good drama. 

 

I didn't have a big problem with them going to him before looking for Cain either. They have no idea where Cain is. They knew where Metatron was. 

 

I don't really think we were supposed to think of Dean as a brilliant strategic mind in that scene. I think he was just supposed to be seething and the mark was taking over, and Metatron was a deserving target.

 

The show always gives out mixed signals about torture, depending on who is doing it, but generally I don't think they say torture is sexy or the right way to go.

 

I also don't know how many people are saying, "It's so hot to see Dean carving somebody open." I think people are talking about Jensen's charisma and strength in the scenes, body language, etc. not all that with Metatron being cut open and yowling.

I would be fine if Metatron never showed up again.  Armstrong is acting isn't the problem...I'm just not that interested in the character.

 

I don't fine Dean hot when he tortures, period.  Never have.  I would rather see him using his knowledge to get information and see the mark interfering with it if that is the direction they wanted to go, but the gore on this show is out of control and I rather liked it when it was less.

 

However Jensen is looking hotter this season to me and there are some photos of Dean's character that is really hot this season and last.  But do I like the violence or think I want to see him loosing control, Nope not at all. 

 

So on one hand I can understand Sam's horror and now that the shoe is on the other foot, I hope he will show some understanding of Dean's past treatment.  Sam isn't handling that well, but his one speech to Dean to find the control from him was the only part I liked.  I still have to watch the entire ep...due to situation's beyond my control I haven't had time to watch it all.  But so far I really don't like what they have done with Claire.

[catrox14]

The same thing happened to Dean though with having to cover his ears etc. It wasn't purposeful torture to make Dean break. It was Castiel not realizing that Dean was not someone who could hear him. I don't think it was conditioning at all with Jimmy. I think Cas just kept  trying because Jimmy was a devout man and  I think Jimmy had a hard time because he was struggling with believing an angel was communicating with him but his family didn't so he went on meds. 

Edited January 26, 2015 by catrox14

[SueB]

 

And I really did not appreciate the line about her abandoning Fergis was tied to her being a career woman. UM WTF writers. Egads.

I thought it was funny because it was so obvious that's she's a flim-flam artist and grabbing onto a 20th century construct of career woman to explain her 17th century abandonment of Crowley is absurd.  She's so obviously slippery.

 

I also laughed at "Not a thing you evil bitch, mother." Normally I tsk & sigh at "bitch" but she made the line work.  Don't get me wrong, I don't want anything good for her. I'm Team Crowley (I think him running Hell is a heckuva lot better than some raving lunatic like Abbadon).  And I feel for his abandonment issues (because I always feel for woobies...don't judge me). 

 

 

I think Cas just kept  trying because Jimmy was a devout man and  I think Jimmy had a hard time because he was struggling with believing an angel was communicating with him but his family didn't so he went on meds.

On the first "consent", I believe Cas was sincere and thought he was doing the right thing. I think Jimmy DID think it was an honor and thought he was helping out the world.  After Jimmy came to realize how horrific it was, his second consent was coercion by Cas (Jimmy said yes to save Claire). So regarding Jimmy's culpability, I'd say he was altruistic and naive for the first "yes" and noble for the second yes.  So I don't really feel like he has to apologize to Claire for what he would later think of as a mistake (the first yes).  Cas, OTOH, thought he was doing the right thing sincerely with the first "yes". With the second "yes", he was back from re-indoctrination to angel-duties and didn't care about the impact to human Jimmy.  So, Cas IMO is more culpable than Jimmy. But I hold him less culpable for the first "yes" because Cas didn't really know better. 

[DittyDotDot]

I thought it was funny because it was so obvious that's she's a flim-flam artist and grabbing onto a 20th century construct of career woman to explain her 17th century abandonment of Crowley is absurd.  She's so obviously slippery.

 

I also laughed at "Not a thing you evil bitch, mother." Normally I tsk & sigh at "bitch" but she made the line work.  Don't get me wrong, I don't want anything good for her. I'm Team Crowley (I think him running Hell is a heckuva lot better than some raving lunatic like Abbadon).  And I feel for his abandonment issues (because I always feel for woobies...don't judge me). 

 

Heh, judgement free zone! 

 

Actually loved the "career woman" line. I'm generally amused when this show finds the oddest little absurdities to interject, mostly because the show itself is an odd little absurdity. It's nice when they don't take themselves too seriously, IMO.

[rue721]

I thought it was funny because it was so obvious that's she's a flim-flam artist and grabbing onto a 20th century construct of career woman to explain her 17th century abandonment of Crowley is absurd.  She's so obviously slippery.

 

I also laughed at "Not a thing you evil bitch, mother." Normally I tsk & sigh at "bitch" but she made the line work.  Don't get me wrong, I don't want anything good for her. I'm Team Crowley (I think him running Hell is a heckuva lot better than some raving lunatic like Abbadon).  And I feel for his abandonment issues (because I always feel for woobies...don't judge me).

 

Yeah, I'm actually fine with the storyline as a concept. It doesn't seem strange to me that Crowley would want his mother around. He's always been bizarrely/endearingly proud of having "made it" as a demon, so of course he's going to want to show off in front of her. If nothing else, I'd expect him to be pissed and trying to rub her nose in his success imo. And it makes sense to me that his success has made him arrogant enough to think he can "handle her," too. (Which is sort of ironic, I guess, since he's always had such a chip on his shoulder about other people underestimating him -- here he is overestimating himself and underestimating her).

 

Something that I like about Crowley is that he seems to genuinely care about being "respectable," as absurd as that is for a demon. He cares about keeping his word and loves this King of Hell title like no other. Basically, he seems like he (consciously) wants to be NOTHING LIKE his mother. That's hilarious to me just in general, let alone with Rowena right there in the same room as him being exactly what/who he would never want to be (and yet just like him!).

 

I think that what Crowley likes about Dean in particular is that he thinks he's very trustworthy and stalwart, too, which cracks me up. Especially since it's *Crowley* who has actively used and corrupted Dean (via the Mark). Always gonna hurt the one you love, huh, Crowley? :P

 

I do feel bad for Crowley though, because Rowena is just straight up NOT respectable, and everybody's going to know he's trash, too, by the time she's done.

 

I've got a soft spot for that kind of SL, and I actually think that Mark Sheppard has been nailing it, too. But the storyline itself is just so shoddily constructed/poorly written that it's excruciating to watch anyway imo. Too bad, I feel like it has/had potential.

Edited January 26, 2015 by rue721

[Commando Cody]

I tried to watch this episode again. First with Rowena and then Jimmy's stupid daughter, I ended up fast forwarding through most of it.  Dean wiped out a room full of men - violently.  Clair thought two stoners she met in a bar could take care of him? 

 

I don't really like MetaMarv either, but I liked Dean in those scenes.  Maybe I just like his dark side.  

 

In general, this is a cringe worthy episode.  

[Dobian]

I really hope the Bad Hair Claire storyline in really done.  Seriously, if I want to watch a bad Lifetime movie I'll turn on Lifetime and watch a bad movie.

Similarly, Rowena and her horrific Irish accent can't go soon enough.

That's about all I've got on this one, though I could watch Boogertron sass Dean all day while getting beat up.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Dobian said:

.

Similarly, Rowena and her horrific Irish accent can't 

 Rowena is Scottish and Ruth Connell is Scottish as in from Scotland. Maybe that's why her Irish accent was so bad ;)

[DittyDotDot]

2 hours ago, Dobian said:

I really hope the Bad Hair Claire storyline in really done.  Seriously, if I want to watch a bad Lifetime movie I'll turn on Lifetime and watch a bad movie.

If you really want to know:

Spoiler

Nope. There's more Claire and her bad hair yet to come. Her hair does improve...but not this season.

 

2 hours ago, Dobian said:

Similarly, Rowena and her horrific Irish accent can't go soon enough.

It's actually the actress' natural Scottish accent. Personally, I don't mind her accent, but it did take a few episodes for me to warm up to her. I think she's kinda a fun character now, but these first few episodes really felt like Ruth Connell was trying too hard.

Edited September 14, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[Dobian]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

 Rowena is Scottish and Ruth Connell is Scottish as in from Scotland. Maybe that's why her Irish accent was so bad ;)

Ha!  This is still the season of bad accents.  On top of this we've had the return of Fargo.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

This was a real Unbelievable ep for me.  For example: 

• Can't believe "The King of Hell" Crowley is getting taken for a ride by a witch, even if it's his mother.  Come on.  "The King" should be smarter than that.  Bad Irish accent notwithstanding.  ;)  Tbh, I was a little bored with that story line, even if it was slightly interesting seeing a new witchy-sight power.  
• Can't believe Cas just drove off leaving an underage girl to hitch a ride to Chuck-knows-where.  I guess because the angel thing maybe he doesn't understand the danger?  But then, with the Super Spy Informational Download last season, he should know better.  That's how women end up raped and murdered or in forced prostitution.  Bad Show.
• Can't believe I had to see boogertron again.  I was not happy about that.  But as long as he was there, I could have used a little more Dean inflicted torture.  Wouldn't have bothered me one bit.  I was actually waiting (rooting!) for the head screws to come out.  Marv'd have talked then.  I'd be happy if I knew that was the last I'd see of him, but...alas.
• Can't believe the guys didn't get the whole story about how to remove the Mark in the first place.  WTH?  As soon as booger said, First Blade, I would have been like "and then what?"  They hear FB and just run off to collect it without knowing the rest?  Seems pretty stupid.  
• Can't believe those two that Claire hooked up with weren't demons.  I thought for sure they would be.  It was kind of neat that they weren't.  

[DittyDotDot]

So, "the river ends at the source," hu? It all takes on a different meaning to me after S12. I'm sure that wasn't an intentional through line, though. It is the Carver years, after all.

BTW, I listened to the commentary on this episode and found Curtis Armstrong to be a very complimentary and personable guest. I did laugh ever so hard at him saying he didn't know what "the river ends at the source" meant and didn't know what to do with it. So, he called Jeremy Carver, and--surprise, surprise--Carver was evasive and never answered his question. Yeah, I saw the answer to that coming a mile away. 

Anyhoo, wonder if Claire looks in the mirror and is as horrified and distracted by her hair and makeup as I am? ;)

[bettername2come]

I think I like the Claire actress a little bit more in this one. I thought she did a good job playing that fear went after her new violent friends. 

[Hanahope]

I hope we are done with Claire, really tired of that story line.

I just can't believe the king of hell is hanging out in some sort of dark and dingy warehouse or something, in a chair that's just 'meh.'  Why isn't he actually "in hell?"  Or if not, in some swanky penthouse somewhere?  It just makes no sense.  Not to mention why he's suddenly believing the mother who never cared for him one whit.  Nice to know that other demons know where the king keep his bones.

Did they really think that Meta would just give up the MoC info out of the goodness of his heart?  Really?

And the stairway to heaven is still in some playground?  And no one notices a kid and a punk girl constantly hanging out there?

[DittyDotDot]

5 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

I just can't believe the king of hell is hanging out in some sort of dark and dingy warehouse or something, in a chair that's just 'meh.'  Why isn't he actually "in hell?"  Or if not, in some swanky penthouse somewhere?  It just makes no sense.  Not to mention why he's suddenly believing the mother who never cared for him one whit.  Nice to know that other demons know where the king keep his bones.

Yeah, this is the point where I think it's obvious the show didn't know what to do with Crowley any more, but didn't want to lose Mark Sheppard.

8 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

And the stairway to heaven is still in some playground?  And no one notices a kid and a punk girl constantly hanging out there?

Heh, you'd think some parent would've wondered why so many "adults" kept showing up to play in the sandbox, too. ;)

[hypnotoad]

Continuing my Season 10 watch and all I have to say about this episode is that I didn't like Claire, I find it terribly hard to believe Crowley is falling for the quite obvious Rowena and when I saw Metatron again I actually said 'NOOOOOOOOOO' in a very anguished voice. Please please please Supernatural let that be the last of Metatron (of course I doubt I will get my way because I don't get nice things from this show like losing all the angel stuff and going back to simpler times of HUNTING bad things).

[The Companion]

 

On 1/20/2015 at 9:32 PM, catrox14 said:

I was actively rooting for Dean to torture every fucking cell of that POS Marvatron. I wanted him to torment him forever and ever.

 

I really didn't need him back so soon (binge watching may have made this even more noticeable).

On 1/21/2015 at 11:02 AM, Demented Daisy said:

I'm starting to like Rowena, so she'll be dead by the end of the season.

 

Unpopular opinion, but I like her as a foil to Crowley. 

On 1/21/2015 at 8:47 PM, Pete Martell said:

 

The murderous couple were just ridiculous, pathetically written characters. Buckner and Ross-Lemming didn't even try. They had no characterization, no motivation - they just showed up and wanted to kill people.

Yes! I kept waiting for demon eyes or for them to talk her into consenting to.be a vessel because it was the only way or for some other motivation to come up. She is telling them about multiple murders and they are like: "Haha. Which murderer is this?" Then they are willing to kill for a stranger. How does this make even a modicum of sense?

On 1/22/2015 at 1:54 AM, rue721 said:

 

It just kind of grates that she shows up to be basically The Poor Little Match Girl, only important or interesting in terms of how others have abused her, and then conveniently disappears once Cas has (apparently?) "grown" or whatever and Dean has been "revealed" (by the massacre and also by Claire as a mirror). That's a problem with the concept itself, imo -- I think that if the writers had put in *any* more effort than the bare minimum, they might have had enough fun with the character to make her more likeable or hint at more interesting things about her, but her role in the story seems as though it was constructed fundamentally in order for her to be a prop.

I agree. After all this time waiting for some payoff/consequences, this is what we get? She is given no personality beyond what is required for Castiel's growth and as a damsel/set up for Dean? And once she has served her purpose, she is sent off without so much as a ride to the bus stop and some cash? At freaking least have Castiel assure her he will be listening? She is a minor, and one who has been abused. 

This one wasn't a total loss for me, but I thought it was a bit of a mess. In the end, I am happy to have closure on Jimmy but feel like they really screwed up with Claire. 

[Katy M]

9 hours ago, The Companion said:

Then they are willing to kill for a stranger. How does this make even a modicum of sense?

I didn't think it made that much sense, either.  But to be fair, it's not like they wanted to kill to do her a favor. All those glances over her head, it was pretty clear that they wanted to do this to get control over her.

[The Companion]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

I didn't think it made that much sense, either.  But to be fair, it's not like they wanted to kill to do her a favor. All those glances over her head, it was pretty clear that they wanted to do this to get control over her.

Definitely. It was bizarre to set up some sort of secret secondary motive and not actually have it revealed. Maybe a scene was cut? For a show that sometimes over-explains everything, I was surprised it was left so ambiguous.