S06.E03: Jagged Little Tapestry

[Glorfindel]

It took me a while before I was able to write my thoughts about this episode, mainly because I not only found the episode bad in so many ways, but also cruel, malicious and irresponsible. About the only good thing about this episode was its songs imo.

 

Becky is just horrible. I don’t get what’s funny about a character who spews so much vitriol, constantly insults people that try to help her, slushies them, and throws a glass of milkshake on the floor in a restaurant. To have a character with Down Syndrom do that, without her being checked or called out by others, makes it even worse imo. Even a girl like Becky should know and be taught the difference between right and wrong, and that what’s she’s doing to people is awful. That’s what she wants, isn’t it? Being treated exactly the same as all other people. Her cruelty and disrespect is out of bounds. Her boyfriend shouldn’t reconsider dating her because of her having Down Syndrom but because she is just a vicious person and a bully. I will be glad if this was the last we’ve seen of her.

 

Although the Beiste storyline seems to get handled with some care, it seemed to me they were just ticking off all the boxes needed to tell yet another PSA, plus the whole issue has no proper grounding in Glee’s canon nor build up in Beiste’s characterisation. Not only were their multiple episodes in which Beiste wanted nothing more than to be seen as a woman, but by making her a transgender man now it destroys one of the few storylines and representations Glee did right, namely that of a muscular, butch woman struggling with her appearance and wanting to be seen for who she is.
It is clearly an Emmy grab and/or RIB trying to get media attention for their oh so groundbreaking LGBTQ storylines, and I just can’t get past that while watching this storyline, even though Dot-Marie and Jane Lynch are very good actresses who do the best they can with the material.

 

This week was another waste of the original cast, with no storylines for themselves but them being props for others, like Quinn and Tina (and of course their song got cut short, which was the upteenth dig at both girls). Puck said maybe 1 line in the entire episode and was lipsynching but not heard in the group song: I hope Mark Salling got paid nicely for coming back.

And speaking of coming back: Max Adler must be scratching his head now for passing up the opportunity to make a movie so he could film Glee season 6. They’re doing absolutely nothing with his character but use him as a roadblock for Klaine, and the way they have him act so cheerfully and constantly touching Blaine seems very OOC for Karofsky. Btw: that whole Blainofsky ship is shallow, undeveloped and 2-dimensional. And Blaine still having so many pictures of his ex on his phone while moving in with his ex’s bully is just creepy. But otoh the less screentime for Blaine the better, as far as I’m concerned.

 

To be honest: I love seeing the old characters and actors back, I even admit getting some sentimental feelings because of the old setting in McKinley (although I would have preferred all characters moving on from highschool to college and/or New York City), and that’s why I found season 6 to be more watchable than I expected so far. But the mindless, unnecessary cruelty of this episode, the malicious intended mockery of the same underdogs Glee was supposed to celebrate (and RIB prided themselves for), while at the same time pushing another Very Important PSA into our faces, almost made me walk away from the episode and never go back to Glee and its fandom again. It’s not defendable in any way imo.

It’s not going back to the sarcastic black comedy that Glee was in its first season, as the show (and the media) taking itself too seriously has made that impossible by now. It’s not clever, edgy writing, as the insults and digs at characters and actors have become too personal and serve no purpose in the narrative at all anymore. And repeatedly insulting and putting down the minority characters on the show while preaching and priding themselves about how Glee makes a difference and celebrates those same underdogs makes the writers look like hypocrites.

 

I’ll make a seperate post about the Kurtana issue.

[Coxfires]

And yes what Kurt did is despicable and horrendous.  Attacking people's proposals, interrupting weddings, making caustic remarks at funerals, etc. is not just being rude.   There are moments when behavior goes way beyond rude and Kurt's actions are one of those moments. 

 

No, it is according to you and you only. But hey, whatever floats your boat.

[Hana Chan]

While I thought that Kurt was dead wrong to rain all over Santana's proposal moment, that doesn't mean that I don't understand why he did. That does not meant that I'm defending him, any more than understanding why Finn lashed out in Kurt's basement back in Theatricality means that he was justified. You can understand the reasons behind a character's actions and still think that they were dead wrong.

 

Likewise, I understand why Santana was so angry with Kurt. But that still doesn't mean that she was justified in how she went after him and what she said. She would have been fully within rights to be upset that as a friend, he wasn't supporting her, that he spoiled a special moment between her and Brittany and that she was hurt and furious with him. She would have been very right to remind him that just because his relationship with Blaine was a fucked up mess and he's wandering around moping over someone that made him absolutely miserable (which speaks volumes about his self-esteem), that he shouldn't go projecting his issues on everyone else. Not to mock his appearance, his personal tastes in music, his personal interests and 99% of the other points that she was trying and failed to make. Santana totally ruined her justification for going after Kurt because she didn't focus on the reasons she was angry and just attacked everything about him as a human being.

 

And yeah... a lot of that rant did read like Brad Falchuk was trolling the LOL Kurt tag on Tumblr.

[fakeempress]

Actually several people have focused solely on Santana's rant and have stated they thought Kurt's comments were understandable.  Just on the prior page, Santana was blamed for Kurt's comments due to doing a public proposal (later editing to act as if okay Kurt maybe should not have said something when posts were pointed out).  And then there is the deciding that the rant is a personal attack on Chris Colfer. 

 

And yes what Kurt did is despicable and horrendous.  Attacking people's proposals, interrupting weddings, making caustic remarks at funerals, etc. is not just being rude.   There are moments when behavior goes way beyond rude and Kurt's actions are one of those moments. 

 

Umm, they are understandable. It means that I can understand why he did it and where he was coming from. Last I checked, the dictionary, Google and other authorities on semantics don't define 'understandable' as justified and excused. Santana being the wronged party at the proposal doesn't automatically nullify or excuse what she in turn did wrong, like the remark about proposing in public mainly to stick it to the single people in the room - it's there in the show, I'm not making it up. 

 

Aren't you familiar with the fact that "speak now or forever hold your peace" is still practiced at weddings, and technically people are invited to speak up so if they want to interrupt the proceedings, they can without the fear of being called despicable and horrendous? Or that we're not dealing with a Westboro Baptist Church hate action here.

Edited January 19, 2015 by fakeempress

[SadieT]

Aren't you familiar with the fact that "speak now or forever hold your peace" is still practiced at weddings, and technically people are invited to speak up if they want to interrupt the proceedings, and they can without the fear of being called despicable and horrendous? 

 

Yeah but nobody actually does that because it's such a dick move. 

[Glorfindel]

Kurt was definitely very wrong to project and express his own issues with getting married young right after the proposal (although the ND kids butting in in personal matters and loudly telling their opinions is nothing new, and that definitely includes Santana) but he did not deserve that rant Santana gave him.

And to see that utter homophobic and effemiphobic garbage labelled and interpreted as "Santana slays" and "Kurt got what he deserved" is really showing the true face of not only the writers but also part of the Glee fandom, who think it's funny and even celebrate when one LGBTQ character thoroughly insults the sexuality and appearance of another LGBTQ character, all things the receiving character (and actor) can do nothing about, or not without hiding who he truly is.

But Glee and its fandom care so much about the underdogs and minorities, right?

 

Just to make this absolutely clear, again: what Kurt did was wrong, and Santana had a right to be pissed at him. But if Santana really thinks she’s mature enough to get married, then maybe she should keep her anger and lashing out focused on the issue at hand instead of attacking a person where it hurts the most, dehumanizing him with homophobic and effemiphobic remarks, especially when this person has taken you into his home for over a year and was the only one who comforted you after you were the one irrationaly and inconsiderately lashing out because you were hurting inside.

What a way to destroy a character and a friendship.

 

But besides the more severe implications that rant (should have) had on the characters involved there’s more at play here. It was imo a rant that crossed the line into actor bashing territory. It insulted not only Chris’ looks which he shares with Kurt (his teeth, calling his mouth a cat’s ass), but also:
- his voice (which Chris got severely bullied for in highschool),
- his sexuality (sexless, really?),
- his well-known love for old people (gerontophile, nursing home), when Kurt was only in a nursing home in 1 episode (the one Chris wrote!), but which has been ridiculed already twice this season (Sue in 6x01/02: "You smell like a nursing home). And btw: Kurt wasn't in that nursing home because he loves old people, but because it was an opportunity for him to perform.
- the things Chris loves and does, like musical songs, and his sai swords (so not batons twirling), which are also ironically the things that only made it into the show because the writers lazily took them from Chris’ real life, when Chris himself was very hesitant about them doing so (and thankfully was able to stop them from making Kurt a New York bestselling writer, FCS). Heck, Brad Falchuk was the one who insisted on the sai swords being used in 'The Greatest Star of All', when Chris didn't want to.

 

For people thinking this was just mocking Kurt’s traits, besides the obvious physical traits he shares with Chris, it was not. It’s unfortunate that because of the actor’s bleed Kurt and Chris share many traits, but what’s not a coincidence in this matter is that the writer attacked and ridiculed each and everyone of only those shared traits, while he left out and could have aimed his mocking at so many other traits of Kurt that have nothing to do with Chris.

Like Kurt’s fashion sense (which Chris has not), his Bruce pillow, or his obsession with skin products. Or God forbid something that actually makes sense in the narrative, like how Kurt still wants to go back to a guy who shags his ex-bully now, or how interrupting Brittana’s proposal was rude in the first place.

 

And on top of these too personal for comfort insults, all these traits that apply to both Kurt and Chris which they mocked on the show were used to say to Kurt that he wasn’t desirable, utterly intolerable and not worthy of love. JFC.

 

It was vicious, personal, came out of nowhere considering Kurt and Santana’s history together, and had no real context, relevance, justification (not in proportion to what Kurt did) or consequences in the episode whatsoever, and noone even mentioned it anymore after it happened. If that was not a writer’s issue being put on display on national television I don’t know what it was.
And even if it was just lazy writing, using the actor’s traits to make fun of his character, actor’s bleed, those were some really low blows either way, character or actor. It sure wasn’t funny, ‘deserved’, nor an appropriate response for what Kurt did.

 

And no, I’m not just saying this because I like Kurt/Chris, nor because I don’t like Santana/Naya (I actually mostly liked her till now). If this had been any other character/actor getting bashed like this by the show, by their own bosses, I’d feel the same. I really hated how they e.g. sometimes ripped into Cory, not only his looks, his singing and dancing, but also his past, and I despised how they put a fandom’s bullying insult into the show when they called Brody a donkey face.
I never liked it when they did it to any of the other actors, but otoh I also don’t think that because it also happened to those others it makes this incident less unprofessional, harmful or vile.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Glorfindel

[Myrna123]

For God's sake, I don't think it's Santana's fault that Kurt interrupted her proposal--I was being facetious. If you asked 10,000 random people on the street whether it's cool to interrupt a public marriage proposal with reasons why the couple shouldn't get married, exactly zero people would say it was cool. But it's not raping and eating a baby either.

Kurt was projecting his issues, but in that moment, do viewers think he really believed Santana and Brittany should get married and that instead of voicing that he lied and said he thought they were too young? Do they think that he just spitefully and maliciously interrupted because he doesn't want anyone to get married if he can't? Or did he really think he thought they were all too young to get married? It's fairly human to want your mistakes to be attributed to something universal rather than something personal. And most people, when they do something wrong, don't think it's wrong while they're doing it--otherwise they wouldn't do it at all (unless they're Sue or Becky I guess). Kurt wasn't trying to be cruel or unkind, he spoke out of turn and then apologized to Brittany who easily accepted it.

If your outrage meter is off the scale at this transgression, where do you go from here? It reminds me of the Louis ck bit where he overhears two guys talking and one says something like, "dude, I had a chicken sandwich," and the other guy says, "Dude! That's AMAZING!" It's really not.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Myrna123

[fakeempress]

Yeah but nobody actually does that because it's such a dick move. 

If it happens it would be a dick move,and that's a qualification I can get behind; unless someone just found out at a wedding that the groom, let's say, is a bigamist, things like that which nullify the legality. 

[caracas1914]

To be fair to Kurt, he did say sorry.

 

 

I chuckle because obviously these writer troll the forums, one in particular, where the whining  lament is that Kurt is never wrong,  never has to apologize for his actions or shown as flawed.  Well, fuck, that claim has been blown out of the water.   He breaks up with Blaine and has to say he's sorry about things and that Blaine has every right to tell him to screw off.   He calls out Brittana's proposal and gets told off and says he's sorry to Brittany.   And Lastly he apologizes to Rachel for allowing his personal feelings to affect his choir duties.

 

LOL, it's almost like the writers are saying , " see?  We've made Kurt be in the wrong and apologize to others so STFU people!"

.

[Advance35]

ITA it's why I laugh hysterically when they talk about how Glee Club made them all friends.

 

 

This I can definitely agree with.   Whom in this story would willingly spend time with anyone else.   And maybe the characters have figured that out on one level or another.   I have to laugh that Kurt was the only one to show up at that street corner all those months later when everyone else had gotten on with their lives in one way or another.

 

As for Santana, I still maintain she has said MUCH worse and it's been at the expense and referenced other actors/actresses, if they can take it, so can Mr. Colfer.   I still laugh when I watch it.    And even though they are friends maybe that's really what she thinks of Kurt.    She's claimed to like/care about Rachel and she's said horrible things about her and her appearance.   Same with Finn.

[Ann Mack]

All of comments I have read about the Santana and Kurt situation thus far just further validates my own personal belief that the biggest BULLYS on Glee has always been the GLEE Writers!!

[fakeempress]

Santana has been written as (borderline) homophobic with her Lady Hummel jabs, for instance. In this episode, she referred to Kurt as Rachel's sad gay,which is depersonalising and demeaning at the very least. And she is supposed to be Kurt's friend. Not to speak of the homophobic insults in the rant. She has insulted many other people in the course of the show using all kinds of jabs. This doesn't make the fact of her homophobic and bullying remarks here go away, nor makes them funny to me. 

Edited January 19, 2015 by fakeempress

[Glorfindel]

Kurt spent the entire episode projecting his issues with Blaine on everyone else including 2 glee club members giving their first performance together.

He's truly stepping into Will's shoes and legacy then. But at least Kurt admitted he was wrong to do so.

And it's not like Rachel is not projecting her own issues on these kids, or Blaine for that matter, basking in his former Warbler glory to lick his wounds.

 

Bottom line is that all of them, including Sam, are too young and not properly educated to be teachers (and ironically it's Kurt who comes the closest to actually having some education to teach show choir). For a show that prides itself on preaching to us how important the Arts are in education they are doing a very piss-poor job.

 

Kurt got engaged on the swell of emotions but he still had the apprehension that it may not work out because they're young. It's not that hard to imagine that people sometimes don't do what they preach because they are emotionally involved. 

I don't think he sees the age issue as literally the age, but that they aren't mature enough for this commitment. Both couples were apart, got back together, got engaged, and Kurt's experience is about what happens afterwards, when people cannot adjust because they haven't matured or are incompatible. I'm outlining how I see his thought process on the basis of what the show wants to tell us, and I'll also say that it happens that people realise they don't work out when they become engaged. 

 

Obviously every couple is different. But Kurt knows Brittany and Santana have been on and off. Does this immediately scream they are now a steady healthy couple? As far as Kurt's view is concerned, he sees them on the path of making the same mistake he and Blaine did, of taking a step they may not be ready for. That's his projecting - again, what the show wants to present.

This is how I saw that remark as well. It was partly projecting, but also Kurt continuing an opinion he has had and voiced openly since season 3: that people still in or just a year or so out of highschool are not mature enough to marry.

Just because Kurt got swept up in the very public proposal of Blaine doesn't mean he is a hypocrite for voicing the flaws of a young engagement/marriage or that he didn't keep that thought in the back of his mind. Kurt wanted a long engagement himself, and them being too immature is even the reason why he broke it off with Blaine, despite still loving him.

 

Kurt is using Brittany and Santana's relationship to voice his own issues with his own relationship failures, and his concerns were not valid in any way, with regards to Brittany and Santana, specifically.

True, and I don't think anyone is denying that.

It still doesn't justify Santana's very hurtful and effemiphobic rant towards a friend who has been there for her multiple times, but when she is not there for him now he clearly needs some sympathy and understanding, the same way as he gave her leeway and comfort when she was ripping into Sue and even Finn himself after Finn died.

 

Also, how about all those times her fandom excused Santana's bitter rants and clear bullying directed at the other kids, because she was a closeted lesbian and having relationship issues herself? Would Kurt ripping into her as viciously as she ripped into him now be justified and celebrated then, when she was struggling? And she definitely rained on some parades too back then.

Santana is a bully, always has been, but at least in high school she had some mitigating circumstances to explain (not excuse) her malicious behavior. Now she doesn't have those circumstances anymore, but she's still just as much of a bully, if not even more of a bully, because by this time these people have become her friends and have actually proven their friendship to her, but she's still going for the really low blows.

 

As for Kurt's concerns not being valid, I disagree. We're still talking about a quite young couple here, of which one of them got lost in an airport for months and who still can't keep people (friends!) apart from one another, and of whom the other one is so smitten with her she thinks she is a genius who can go to college with her.

It's true Brittana has been together now for many months, but Klaine's engagement also lasted for about a year before Kurt broke it off, so in Kurt's view and current state of mind his concern could be valid.

Not that I begrudge Brittana's fandom their engagement. And they certainly don't deserve having another ship take over their ship's pinnacle moments.

 

Santana insults everybody (except Brittany) all the time. There is nobody else who does that among the group, I don't count Becky as part of the group. Santana is also this person who will dish it, but can't take it.

This is what she found highly amusing to say about Rachel a day or so before the proposal, in public, and in front of Rachel's students:

Where was Rachel's rant to Santana?

I don't believe that in real life these people would still be friends, especially with Santana. Nobody I know will tolerate their "friend" insulting them in this manner on a regular basis, and in turn treat them kindly and with respect.

All of this.

 

In the same way, I don't believe anyone will be pining over an ex like Blaine, especially when this ex hooks up with their ex-bully. This is total and complete BS.

Ugh. As much as I hated it, I'd take another dozen of Santana's rants to Kurt if it would open his eyes and set him finally free from Blaine. Maybe Santana should focus her 'tough love' on getting Kurt out of his funk and respecting himself enough to not want to go back to an abusive, or at least very one-sided relationship.

So how ironic is it that Santana's rant was yet another tool of the writers to force Kurt and Blaine back together again, by once again having her rant put the blame of their break up firmly on Kurt's shoulders and retconning why they even broke up in the first place.

 

That stuff is still part of Kurt's character though. Regardless of how these facets of Kurt's character was introduced, by his pen or the writers', they are still part of the character hence Santana's rant is still directed at Kurt and not at Chris. I think people are just reading into it as an attack on Chris. Baton-twirling is a talent he brought to his character on the show. Kurt in canon likes old people and was going to work with old people as part of his work study. It's part of the character of Kurt even though some of those characteristics apply to Chris as well. I think you're handicapping the majority of the show if you can't comment on things that apply to the actors in real-life. It's almost like saying characters on the show can't comment on Mr. Schue's terribly awkward rapping because Matt "Matty Fresh" likes hip-hop. Or commenting on Rachel's love of Barbra Streisand. Or Finn's awful dancing. There is actor/character bleed on this show. There's no getting around that.

Chris didn't bring 'baton swirling' (it's sais, for God's sake, and they're razor sharp) into the show, that was actually Brad Falchuk, who now conveniently takes a cheap shot at something he wanted for Kurt while Chris protested it.

 

As I said: I don't think the writers should take any digs at their actors' appearances or personal traits at all, as I'm sure actual decent writers could come up with much better and more funny ways to insult a character if there's the need for it in their show (although I also don't know any show that puts so many character/actor insults in their show for 'fun'). Some of the Glee cast are even on record for not liking it.

 

In the beginning I thought  when e.g. they were making fun of Matt's hiphop past it at least was meant in a friendly, teasing way (at least that's how I felt it). Later it was just lazy writing, actor's bleed indeed, with imo sometimes some mixed in personal resentment/favoritism of the writers (like Sue nor anyone else ever really mocking Blaine). Was that really Lea Michele loving Barbra or just Ryan Murphy using her as a Barbra clone because he idolizes Barbra? And though they mentioned Rachel's nose in the end she was happy with it and complimented for by her peers.

It's true that Cory's dancing was bad and therefore Finn's dancing was also (it was really not possible to hide that), but otoh there are several other actors who are not good dancers in rl either (Chord's even worse) but that doesn't reflect negatively on their characters, while other characters get ripped apart for the stupidest (physical!) things. It looks to me that the writers love to troll some lol tags.

 

I admit it's a thin line between what's acceptable and what not, and in principle none of it is really acceptable when bosses mock their employees' physical appearances in front of millions of people, even when they are actors who are used to having their physical appearance scrutinized.

But imo this particular rant went not just a tiny bit over that line, but a lot, passing into very personal territory. And although actor's bleed is definitely part of why this particular rant (and some others before it) has not only such an impact on the character but also reflects on his actor, that still doesn't excuse or justify it, not the actor's bleed in the first place, and certainly not the rant itself.

[SevenStars]

Santana has been written as (borderline) homophobic with her Lady Hummel jabs, for instance. In this episode, she referred to Kurt as Rachel's sad gay for no reason,which is depersonalising and demeaning at the very least. And she is supposed to be Kurt's friend. Not to speak of the homophobic insults in the rant. She has insulted many other people in the course of the show using all kinds of jabs. This doesn't make the fact of her homophobic remarks here go away, nor makes them funny to me. 

I think the writers and some in the audience don't see her remakes as homophobic because she is gay herself, so that gives her a free past to some.  

 

I like Santana but my biggest problem with her has always been that she is quick to dish it out hard-core but can't take it. That's why I like it when she goes up against characters who have no problem responding back to her. Unfortunately, those are the characters she usually don't insult  a lot or go hard-core in her insult against them.

 

Also, what Kurt did, is something that I can totally imagine Santana doing. Santana never had any problem on raining on any ones parade, when she feels like it. 

Edited January 19, 2015 by SevenStars

[SNeaker]

Quinn and Puck despite having nothing to do, really are oh so pretty standing and dancing around in the background with their one lines, stupid random plots that have nothing to do with them, and always wearing their dresses and uniforms.  I'd follow their spinoff, actually. 

 

I notice they haven't shared a word of dialogue since becoming a couple, which is probably because the writers are well aware they'd have absolutely nothing to say to each other that isn't basically terrible, and the characters have no rapport, imo. The only way to sell them as a couple is to just show them looking pretty in the background.

 

That said, there was really no reason for Puck to be in the episode at all, apparently, and it's especially glaring in an episode with a major Beiste plot. It would have been very easy to, ya know, not have him be there since of all the characters it makes the most sense that he'd have to take off. I mean, get dat money, Mark, but really, what the hell?

Edited January 19, 2015 by SNeaker

[tom87]

I notice they haven't shared a word of dialogue since becoming a couple, which is probably because the writers are well aware they'd have absolutely nothing to say to each other that isn't basically terrible and the characters have no rapport, imo. The only way to sell them as a couple is to just show them looking pretty in the background.

 

That said, there was really no reason for Puck to be in the episode at all, apparently, and it's especially glaring in an episode with a major Beiste plot. It would have been very easy to, ya know, not have him be there since of all the characters it makes the most sense that he'd have to take off. I mean, get dat money, Mark, but really, what the hell?

The incest twins looked like more of a couple than Quick. 

I think the writers and some in the audience don't see her remakes as homophobic because she is gay herself, so that gives her a free past to some.  

 

I like Santana but my biggest problem with her has always been that she is quick to dish it out hard-core but can't take it. That's why I like it when she goes up against characters who have no problem responding back to her. Unfortunately, those are the characters she usually don't insult  a lot or go hard-core in her insult against them.

 

 

The two times Rachel  fought back she was vilified for it.

[Coxfires]

That stuff is still part of Kurt's character though.  Regardless of how these facets of Kurt's character was introduced, by his pen or the writers', they are still part of the character hence Santana's rant is still directed at Kurt and not at Chris.

 

 

But the writers know that they were Chris' attributes to begin with, unless they are affected with a serious Alzheimer's case. they decided to let their actor's hobbies bleed into their character's. So, for them not to realize that disminishing it in the show equates dismininishing it in the actor's life is pretty appalling.

 

But hey, appalling is these writers' middle name, so...

[jaytee1812]

I think the writers and some in the audience don't see her remakes as homophobic because she is gay herself, so that gives her a free past to some.  

  

Glee is really bad for this, they'll put homophobic remarks in gay men or lesbians mouths or have minority characters make racist remarks. And they seem to the somehow this make it not homophobic or racist and that its okay. Nope, these remarks are still offensive, and it's not hard to see that this show is completely written by white men.

That said, there was really no reason for Puck to be in the episode at all, apparently, and it's especially glaring in an episode with a major Beiste plot. It would have been very easy to, ya know, not have him be there since of all the characters it makes the most sense that he'd have to take off. I mean, get dat money, Mark, but really, what the hell?

I kind of admire him, and to an extent Jenna and Dianna, for saying, "seriously, you're paying me for this?" And taking the pay check with both hands.

[SevenStars]

I notice they haven't shared a word of dialogue since becoming a couple, which is probably because the writers are well aware they'd have absolutely nothing to say to each other that isn't basically terrible, and the characters have no rapport, imo. The only way to sell them as a couple is to just show them looking pretty in the background.

 

That said, there was really no reason for Puck to be in the episode at all, apparently, and it's especially glaring in an episode with a major Beiste plot. It would have been very easy to, ya know, not have him be there since of all the characters it makes the most sense that he'd have to take off. I mean, get dat money, Mark, but really, what the hell?

 

Puck should totally have been part Bieste story-line. The writers are stupid for not making that happen.

[Ceeg]

I admit it's a thin line between what's acceptable and what not, and in principle none of it is really acceptable when bosses mock their employees' physical appearances in front of millions of people, even when they are actors who are used to having their physical appearance scrutinized.

But imo this particular rant went not just a tiny bit over that line, but a lot, passing into very personal territory. And although actor's bleed is definitely part of why this particular rant (and some others before it) has not only such an impact on the character but also reflects on his actor, that still doesn't excuse or justify it, not the actor's bleed in the first place, and certainly not the rant itself.

 

I do think it's kind of funny that everyone is raking the writers over the coals for personally attacking Kurt/Chris, but I don't remember reading much (any?) criticism of them making Naya perform a song by her ex-fiance and his current girlfriend.

 

I'm not trying to excuse Glee for their dumb meta or the way they love to attack personal attributes of their actors. But, that's what Glee does. They've done it for 6 years, and I'm not sure there's a single cast member that hasn't been attacked in some way or another (maybe Heather? Harry?).Nothing Santana said crossed any line that the show hadn't already crossed years ago.

[jaytee1812]

The incest twins looked like more of a couple than Quick.

Really, I thought Quick holding hands during the Brittana duet showed more romantic chemistry than Brittana. The only couple I've seen more chemistry is Tike.

But then Quick look like a couple in their early 20s, Santana always looks more like Brittany's carer.

[ComfySweater]

All of comments I have read about the Santana and Kurt situation thus far just further validates my own personal belief that the biggest BULLYS on Glee has always been the GLEE Writers!!

This. They're also not that great at writing when they keep trying to top themselves by going bigger and bigger. That rant dragged on forever and was such a disjointed ramble all over the map. It could have been incredibly biting about Kurt's current issues and inappropriate behavior, but instead they veered off track to go after his feminine traits and his teeth. The longer it went on the harder it was to remember what it was about in the first place. 

[Myrna123]

Reading the comments it's kind if funny how basically everyone is totally appalled about something in the episode (and the series, really), it's just that everyone is appalled by something different. Is it really possible to please absolutely nobody in so very many different ways? On the one hand it becomes a little more understandable how difficult it is to make an ensemble show that will please a majority (pleurality?) of viewers. On the other hand, shouldn't you at least be able to please a few? One? If Glee was a restaurant it would be serving rat feces and fish guts and the proprietors would be shocked--SHOCKED!--at all the customer complaints.

[SevenStars]

But the writers know that they were Chris' attributes to begin with, unless they are affected with a serious Alzheimer's case. they decided to let their actor's hobbies bleed into their character's. So, for them not to realize that disminishing it in the show equates dismininishing it in the actor's life is pretty appalling.

 

But hey, appalling is these writers' middle name, so...

 

Maybe the writers talked to Chris and let him know it wasn't personal, it is just them trying to be funny. Honestly, I'm not going to presume to know how the actors feel about this because they might just see it as the writers trying to get cheap laughs and nothing more.

 

So I'm not offended on their behalf. I'm offended on my behalf because that rant was just not funny. But then again most of Santana's rants have never been funny to me, not even when she is totally right. 

[tom87]

I do think it's kind of funny that everyone is raking the writers over the coals for personally attacking Kurt/Chris, but I don't remember reading much (any?) criticism of them making Naya perform a song by her ex-fiance and his current girlfriend.

 

I'm not trying to excuse Glee for their dumb meta or the way they love to attack personal attributes of their actors. But, that's what Glee does. They've done it for 6 years, and I'm not sure there's a single cast member that hasn't been attacked in some way or another (maybe Heather? Harry?).Nothing Santana said crossed any line that the show hadn't already crossed years ago.

So true, why now, why these insults?

 

Rachel was called a tranny  and RuPaul in the pilot by Quinn and Santana, both I would think fall under  homophobic rhetoric. (and yes I have seen people called Lea manly looking).

Edited January 19, 2015 by tom87

[fakeempress]

I do think it's kind of funny that everyone is raking the writers over the coals for personally attacking Kurt/Chris, but I don't remember reading much (any?) criticism of them making Naya perform a song by her ex-fiance and his current girlfriend.

 

I'm not trying to excuse Glee for their dumb meta or the way they love to attack personal attributes of their actors. But, that's what Glee does. They've done it for 6 years, and I'm not sure there's a single cast member that hasn't been attacked in some way or another (maybe Heather? Harry?).Nothing Santana said crossed any line that the show hadn't already crossed years ago.

Check page 1 of the dual premiere thread. or Page 7 of the People in Charge thread.  

[SevenStars]

I do think it's kind of funny that everyone is raking the writers over the coals for personally attacking Kurt/Chris, but I don't remember reading much (any?) criticism of them making Naya perform a song by her ex-fiance and his current girlfriend.

 

This is totally different to me because that was a business decision since the song was a hit. Glee have always made it clear that if a song is a hit, they will used it, even if it doesn't at all fit the story-line they are writing.

 

Also, the writers might have just done it so that Naya can show that she dgaf about Sean anymore. Either way, to me, I don't think people can compare this.

[ComfySweater]

Maybe the writers talked to Chris and let him know it wasn't personal, it is just them trying to be funny. Honestly, I'm not going to presume to know how the actors feel about this because they might just see it as the writers trying to get cheap laughs and nothing more.

I'm fairly sure at least Cory and Chord talked openly about how insecure all the physical comments made them.  They don't seem the sensitive types in general or we wouldn't have gotten another fat joke at Jenna's expense

and have another ugly one coming up in a  Sue monologue next week about Karofsky. Worse, Max has openly spoken about body issues almost to eating disorder levels.

. So I'm not going to assume they got some special permission free pass from the actors. Even if they did, actors can't really say no without it hurting their reputation for being a team player. It's an awkward position to put them in that only serves to make the writer feel less guilty. 

[Ceeg]

Check page 1 of the dual premiere thread. or Page 7 of the People in Charge thread.  

 

I said "much". Which, one or two sentences acknowledging it is not quite at the level of outrage aimed at Brad on Chris' behalf.

 

 

This is totally different to me because that was a business decision since the song was a hit. Glee have always made it clear that if a song is a hit, they will used it, even if it doesn't at all fit the story-line they are writing.

 

 

There are tons and tons and tons of hit songs out there. Ariana Grande is not the only person who is making popular music. But they chose that one, and it had nothing to do with storyline. I could name a crapload of upbeat hit songs that would have worked in the exact same way. 

When I saw the spoilers about Naya having to perform Problem, I rolled my eyes and said Ugh Glee, and then I moved on. Because it's typical Glee. They pull that kind of shit all the time. So, this whole being enraged on Chris' behalf is just weird to me, when most of the people railing against the writers have let other things go, or not made AS BIG of a deal out of it.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Ceeg

[SevenStars]

I'm fairly sure at least Cory and Chord talked openly about how insecure all the physical comments made them.  They don't seem the sensitive types in general or we wouldn't have gotten another fat joke at Jenna's expense

and have another ugly one coming up in a  Sue monologue next week about Karofsky. Worse, Max has openly spoken about body issues almost to eating disorder levels.

. So I'm not going to assume they got some special permission free pass from the actors. Even if they did, actors can't really say no without it hurting their reputation for being a team player. It's an awkward position to put them in that only serves to make the writer feel less guilty. 

 

You right, I just assume that the writers had enough decency to not do something they know would hurt the actors. But they might just be one of those people that think that someone who is hurt by something they say or do, is just being too insensitive, because their intention was not to hurt but to be funny.

 

But either way, you are right the actors are in no position to say or do anything about it without backlash.   

[fakeempress]

I said "much". Which, one or two sentences acknowledging it is not quite at the level of outrage aimed at Brad on Chris' behalf.

 

 

You also wrote "any?". You are also welcome to voice that complaint the way you think it deserves, it's not the onus on the rest of us to do that for you. And not everyone will note every single thing. But it so happens that the Ariana connection was noted, and not once either. 

Edited January 19, 2015 by fakeempress

[SevenStars]

I said "much". Which, one or two sentences acknowledging it is not quite at the level of outrage aimed at Brad on Chris' behalf.

There are tons and tons and tons of hit songs out there. Ariana Grande is not the only person who is making popular music. But they chose that one, and it had nothing to do with storyline. I could name a crapload of upbeat hit songs that would have worked in the exact same way. 

I didn't say they couldn't find something else for her to sing and I never said this song fit her story-line, in fact, I said the opposite.

 

But I still think Naya singing a song that her ex and his current gf sang is different from the writers insulting Chris looks and diminishing things that can be attributed to him. 

 

Either way, I saw a lot of outrage on Naya's behalf when it was revealed that she was going to sing this song months ago. That might be why you are not seeing so much in the episode's thread because people had already stated their outrage on this actions months ago when they knew about it. People had already dealt with it and move on. Just like they will do with this rant in a few weeks/months, when it is not fresh.

[Ceeg]

You also wrote "any?". You are also welcome to voice that complaint the way you think it deserves, it's not the onus on the rest of us to do that for you. And not everyone will note every single thing. But it so happens that the Ariana connection was noted, and not once either. 

My point is that it's interesting and suspect what specific situations warrant an "Oh, Glee" and "that was mean...moving on", and which ones warrant extended periods of fandom outrage, long diatribes explaining and breaking down every single sentence and inflection, and paragraphs of harsh criticism against the writers for their lack of sensitivity and mean-spiritedness. 

[fakeempress]

My point is that it's interesting and suspect what specific situations warrant an "Oh, Glee" and "that was mean...moving on", and which ones warrant extended periods of fandom outrage, long diatribes explaining and breaking down every single sentence and inflection, and paragraphs of harsh criticism against the writers for their lack of sensitivity and mean-spiritedness. 

Can I ask, did you yourself raise the issue about the Ariana song in this forum before now? 

[jaytee1812]

So true, why now, why these insults?

 

Rachel was called a tranny  and RuPaul in the pilot by Quinn and Santana, both I would think fall under  homophobic rhetoric. (and yes I have seen people called Lea manly looking).

 

Surely the point in the pilot was that Quinn and Santana were bullies. Kurt and Santana are suppose to be friends (same with Rachel in 100)

 

You right, I just assume that the writers had enough decency to not do something they know would hurt the actors. But they might just be one of those people that think that someone who is hurt by something they say or do, is just being too insensitive, because their intention was not to hurt but to be funny.

 

But either way, you are right the actors are in no position to say or do anything about it without backlash.

I see no evidence these writers give a crap what the actors can take about their appearance, race, sexual orientation etc etc.

Also, in what freakin universe in Jenna Ushkowitz fat? If I had a body like hers I would barely wear clothes. And her body shape didn't stop glee putting her in a costume with a bare midriff.

[ComfySweater]

 Also, in what freakin universe in Jenna Ushkowitz fat? If I had a body like hers I would barely wear clothes. And her body shape didn't stop glee putting her in a costume with a bare midriff.

Hollywood. I'll guarantee you she's constantly advised to lose ten pounds. I agree she's in fantastic shape and looks great, but the pressure for actresses to be a size 0 is ridiculous.  Becca Tobin has actually written on the topic, and it's well worth a read if you haven't already seen it. It's almost unfathomable Becca would feel pressure about her size, but she does.

[Glorfindel]

I do think it's kind of funny that everyone is raking the writers over the coals for personally attacking Kurt/Chris, but I don't remember reading much (any?) criticism of them making Naya perform a song by her ex-fiance and his current girlfriend.

I did, and I saw many others here and elsewhere who also saw the irony and intended dig in that. It was quite a big thing when that spoiler first broke, but that was quite a while ago, so by the time it aired people were already used to it and had done most of the complaining.

 

Still doesn't mean that what was said now in this episode, and what has been commented on now so it became this whole debate, gets somehow devaluated because of previous incidents, nor does it become less unprofessional and spiteful when it's not the first time it happened.

And I do believe RIB want to outdo themselves each time, becoming louder and more vicious with every new episode.

 

Maybe the writers talked to Chris and let him know it wasn't personal, it is just them trying to be funny. Honestly, I'm not going to presume to know how the actors feel about this because they might just see it as the writers trying to get cheap laughs and nothing more.

I'm fairly sure at least Cory and Chord talked openly about how insecure all the physical comments made them. They don't seem the sensitive types in general or we wouldn't have gotten another fat joke at Jenna's expense

and have another ugly one coming up in a Sue monologue next week about Karofsky. Worse, Max has openly spoken about body issues almost to eating disorder levels.

. So I'm not going to assume they got some special permission free pass from the actors. Even if they did, actors can't really say no without it hurting their reputation for being a team player. It's an awkward position to put them in that only serves to make the writer feel less guilty.

Several actors have expressed their discomfort with the writers attacking their personal features. Besides the ones mentioned above I know Amber has as well, and also Matt.

Chris has been on record for having these specific insecurities about his body (teeth, voice) and still being bullied for them by part of the Glee fandom (just look at the 'funny' pic of him that people were eagerly re-posting after Santana mentioned his teeth), that's why he never googles himself. Chris has also been on record for not wanting nor liking too much of himself bleed into Kurt, like his sais and the fact that he's a writer. And yet that's exactly what Brad decided to aim at this episode.

 

At the end of the day the Glee cast are still at the mercy of RIB and Fox, their bosses who can make or break the characters they play. There have been enough rumored incidents of some of the Glee actors e.g. protesting what was written for their characters and then being consequently 'punished' for it on the show.

 

And how is it not personal when a writer ridicules your looks and sexuality? Like: "Sorry Chris, we're going to mention in the show that you took out your upper dentures because your teeth indeed look ridiculous, and your voice is so shrill it's hilarious. And oh: we're going to call your character sexless too, but hey: don't take it personal."

Edited January 19, 2015 by Glorfindel

[tom87]

 

Surely the point in the pilot was that Quinn and Santana were bullies. Kurt and Santana are suppose to be friends (same with Rachel in 100)

 

I see no evidence these writers give a crap what the actors can take about their appearance, race, sexual orientation etc etc.

Also, in what freakin universe in Jenna Ushkowitz fat? If I had a body like hers I would barely wear clothes. And her body shape didn't stop glee putting her in a costume with a bare midriff.

So what if the point was that they were bullies,  isn't the point of the outrage that they are/were insulting the actors?

 

Same with Rachel in 100?  Same with Rachel in this episode Before Santana's rant on Kurt  she called Rachel unibrow and Rachel actually supported her.

 

The writers have called Rachel fat as well.   Santana  said she was a chunky monkey, once a fatty always a fatty.  Again no outrage for Lea for  that one.

Edited January 19, 2015 by tom87

[jaytee1812]

Hollywood. I'll guarantee you she's constantly advised to lose ten pounds. I agree she's in fantastic shape and looks great, but the pressure for actresses to be a size 0 is ridiculous.  Becca Tobin has actually written on the topic, and it's well worth a read if you haven't already seen it. It's almost unfathomable Becca would feel pressure about her size, but she does.

I had read that piece by Becca and thought I'd been transferred to a parallel universe where she's not stunningly gorgeous, as is Jenna I hope neither of them give into that pressure to lose weight. Although I Stan pretty hard for both of them, and find their friendship adorable. And I wish they'd brought that friendship to their characters.

I have to add there no female actress among the 'kids' that I wouldn't put in the category of gorgeous, although some of them dial it down for their characters.

[ComfySweater]

The tranny slurs did get them a lot of blowback and they eventually even apologized for those. 

 

I also recall at least fan outrage at the fat comments aimed at Rachel. That stuff's never gone down well in some quarters.

[fakeempress]

So what if the point was that they were bullies,  isn't the point of the outrage that they are/were insulting the actors?

 

Same with Rachel in 100?  Same with Rachel in this episode Before Santana's rant on Kurt  she called Rachel unibrow and Rachel actually supported her.

 

The writers have called Rachel fat as well.   Santana  said she was a chunky monkey, once a fatty always a fatty.  Again no outrage for Lea for  that one.

Maybe on some level we're decensitised to the one-off comments like that, because she uses them all the time. I didn't really took notice of the jab at Rachel's hair or Kurt being just "sad gay" before I rewatched it (clearly I'm a masochist), or the unibrow comment. Like the many times Santana has called Kurt "Lady Hummel", it's like "how are you" coming from her.  But the rant in this episode was a page long and was made a focal point, it went on and on about the character's /actor's features. The piling on was what made people took more notice and react. It's also clear that people remember her previous rants towards other characters, and are still incensed about them. 

Edited January 19, 2015 by fakeempress

[Myrna123]

I remember back in the TWOP days watching an episode and knowing without fail which usernames would be up in arms because of what was said to or about a particular character. Vocal outrage--at a character, writer, director, actor or creator has been an integral part of Glee since egotistical, pushy Rachel set her sights on sweet, pressured Quinn. (Oops, better make that lonely, misguided Rachel and devious, scheming Quinn).

[tom87]

And the same can be said here.

Maybe on some level we're decensitised to the one-off comments like that, because she uses them all the time. I didn't really took notice of the jab at Rachel's hair or Kurt being just "sad gay" before I rewatched it (clearly I'm a masochist), or the unibrow comment. Like the many times Santana has called Kurt "Lady Hummel", it's like "how are you" coming from her.  But the rant in this episode was a page long and was made a focal point, it went on and on about the character's /actor's features. The piling on was what made people took more notice and react. It's also clear that people remember her previous rants towards other characters, and are still incensed about them. 

Santana has piled on Rachel before and there was not  huge sense of moral outrage that some of the points she attacked Rachel with can be attributed to Lea Michele.

 

Hey I agree the rant was was over that top. 

 

But part of me has to wonder if  it is more  because it was against Kurt then anyhting else.    If Santana had that same kind of rant against Blaine (using Darren references)  I do not think around here  it would get much outraged  and certainly not  for 6 pages.

Edited January 19, 2015 by tom87

[SevenStars]

Maybe on some level we're decensitised to the one-off comments like that, because she uses them all the time. I didn't really took notice of the jab at Rachel's hair or Kurt being just "sad gay" before I rewatched it (clearly I'm a masochist), or the unibrow comment. Like the many times Santana has called Kurt "Lady Hummel", it's like "how are you" coming from her.  But the rant in this episode was a page long and was made a focal point, it went on and on about the character's /actor's features. The piling on was what made people took more notice and react. It's also clear that people remember her previous rants towards other characters, and are still incensed about them. 

 

Yeah, I agree. I think it's the length that Santana want on that is causing people to not let it go like they have in the past and why it is one of the most popular video no tumblr right now. I think most people have gotten used to Santana's one-line insults or little rants. So people either laughed at them or ignored them. But this one went on and on and on like it would never end and what made it worst, is that Kurt didn't get to say ANYTHING during that rant.

 

Usually when Santana rant like this, the character get to say something back or at least have people try to comfort them during that rant. Kurt got none of that, which really showcase how much of a bully Santana was being in that moment. 

[fakeempress]

And the same can be said here.

Santana has piled on Rachel before and there was not  huge sense of moral outrage that some of the points she attacked Rachel with can be attributed to Lea Michele.

 

Hey I agree the rant was was over that top. 

 

But part of me has to wonder if  it is more  because it was against Kurt then anyhting else.    If Santana had that same kind of rant against Blaine (using Darren references)  I do not think around here  it would get much outraged  and certainly not  for 6 pages.

I wouldn't be so sure. I'm not a Darren fan but I have spoken up when people on the forum (I think mainly when it was twop) used his so-called "bald spot" to take digs at him or his character. Let's talk when Santana delivers a similar page long rant against Blaine using his size, his hair, his chin, and I don't know how many more features. And I believe people were appropriately outraged when Santana ranted at Finn, etc. - when these episodes were on the air and discussed. 

Edited January 19, 2015 by fakeempress

[tom87]

I wouldn't be so sure. I'm not a Darren fan but I have spoken up when people on the forum (I think mainly when it was twop) used "bald spot" to take digs at him or his character. 

Again as with other examples,  yes the topic maybe be broached but not debated in detail like this has been for the past 3 or 4 pages.

[Cranberry]

I've never enjoyed the mean jabs at physical appearance. I also don't care about any of the Glee actors enough to "stan" for them or favor one over another, and I'm equally put off by insults aimed at Michele or Colfer or whoever else.

I agree that this issue is likely being discussed so much because of the sheer length of the rant.

[fakeempress]

Again as with other examples,  yes the topic maybe be broached but not debated in detail like this has been for the past 3 or 4 pages.

Are you sure? Sadly, the twop archives are gone. This forum is nothing for pages long discussion of one single thing, compared to what it was then. 

Edited January 19, 2015 by fakeempress

[tom87]

Are you sure? Sadly, the twop archives are gone. This forum is nothing for pages long discussion of one single thing, compared to what it was then. 

I am just stating an opinion based on my observations around here,  And  I do not think the outrage would be as strong for  an anti Blaine rant with similar circumstances.

 

I do remember much debate about the Finn rant but then  it go countered with the outing and how the writers made Santana go over board to push Finn yada, yada.  

 

For me I think the rant was overboard but I also think the conspiracy theories about the writers  are overboard too.

[CleoCaesar]

Maybe the writers talked to Chris and let him know it wasn't personal, it is just them trying to be funny. Honestly, I'm not going to presume to know how the actors feel about this because they might just see it as the writers trying to get cheap laughs and nothing more.

 

Seems like the past 6 pages have been people being offended on Chris's behalf...What if it's unnecessary outrage? He might not be offended at all, knowing that it's just for cheap laughs.

 

And maybe it's just me, but if I got paid per episode what Chris gets, I'd be willing to have an entire episode centered around characters insulting my physical flaws. He's not a Hollywood newbie. He's a professional and may be as blase about the whole thing as Kurt appeared to be during the rant.