Relationships: Speed Dating

[ruby24]

Not sure why this is happening, but Candice and Grant's strange, closed mouth, tight-lipped kissing this season is continuing. I think it's Candice, actually. Ever since the season finale last year she's refusing to open her mouth or even move it at all when she kisses him and it's affecting the way the kisses look, especially the ones that are supposed to be a little longer. 

I wish a director would call them on this. They've got to open their mouths some to make the kisses look normal, they've just got to.

[quarks]

As someone who has been pretty vocal about being an Iris fan and not a Westallen shipper - and whose feelings remain the same on this right now - I just wanted to note that, Barry speeding out to get Iris a lovely breakfast in bed on her wedding day, with that note, was genuinely sweet/romantic, as was his look when she was walking up the aisle.

And Iris in her wedding gown was breathtaking. I'm usually eh on TV wedding dresses, but they managed to find something that gave her an elegant Disney princess look - that she could conceivably move in later even after Sara and Alex ended up ripping their dresses. Loved it.

[tofutan]

To be honest, I thought most of the kisses in the crossover looked pretty bad. Excluding the ones that were lit in a way where one couldn't see much like Snart's kisses. But Alex/Sara were very obviously not even close to each other's mouths and Kara and Oliver was also very clearly to the side. 

Oliver and Felicity weren't exactly slobering over each other either, even though we know they are capable of that, but it wouldn't have fit the mood. 

[Trini]

Well, at least they can't take the promo photos away from us:

http://nikascott.tumblr.com/post/167842101912

Even if it's offscreen, they better have a honeymoon!

[ruby24]

Or it could, you know, be onscreen. Like actually have a scene of them naked in bed together, like Alex and Sara just got. 

FFS. They are the most chaste couple in human history. How are they even going to conceive these future children?

[Trini]

I really liked both Barry and Iris' vows to each other; both drew on their long history and strong connection while emphasizing what they mean to each other in the present. Also that it was Iris' turn to tear up!

---------------

4 wedding ceremonies, here's hoping for a 5th that's uninterrupted and legal:

 

http://iriswestallns.tumblr.com/post/167997810631/welcome-to-the-westallen-wedding-s-i-get-to

[CabotCove]

^Beautiful pics

Their wedding might have got hijacked [twice] but nothing can take away the shear beauty of this couple and their pure love for each other?. 

Their history, their love story, their chemistry is the best of DCTV romance. Weddings are nice but the real work start with marriage, i have faith these two can make it.

Edited November 30, 2017 by HeroLeague

[ruby24]

Aside from the fact they're determined to make them completely asexual.

You know they're not going to show them in bed together next week either, no honeymoon or anything. They've avoided ever SINGLE chance to let them be intimate. Not when Barry returned after six months apart, not the bachelor party episode, not even post-wedding. Ridiculous. I think there's racism involved here. I can't imagine a white couple that's supposed to be this iconic and the standard bearer for its show never being allowed to be physical or passionate in any way whatsoever.

Edited November 29, 2017 by ruby24

[Trini]

Just wanted to note Barry & Iris' vows since they didn't happen on the show ::HARSH SIGH::

Quote

Barry: "My entire life has been marked by two things. The first one is change, from when I was a kid to when I was an adult, things were always changing.  But no matter how different things became, or what new challenges I had to face, I always had the other thing that my life was marked by - that's you. You've always been there as a friend, as a partner, as the love of my life. You're my home, Iris, and that's one thing that will never change."

Quote

Iris: "When I was nine years old I wanted to be a ballerina - remember? Even though I was not a very good dancer. And the day of the recital I froze. I couldn't move, and I wanted to die! Then I looked in the audience and saw you. And you got up, climbed on the stage, and you did that whole routine with me. And we killed it! I mean, we brought the house down. And from that moment, I knew that with you by my side anything was possible. The Flash may be the city's hero, but you, Barry Allen, you're my hero. And I am happy, excited, and honored to be your wife."

❤️?
They should actually show us more of these childhood flashbacks instead of just talking about them!

[ruby24]

I'd love that. Why not do a flashback with teen Barry and Iris?

[Trini]

I don't think they'll pair up Caitlin with Ralph - which would be a refereshing change of pace. BUT, would they give Killer Frost a love interest, or have her date anyone?

[Mellowyellow]

I always get weird vibes from Harry and Caitlin.

I don't think they mean for me to get weird vibes since he is a lot older but I always get weird vibes! 

[ruby24]

Me too. Ever since the first season. To be honest, he's the only person I've ever seen her have any chemistry with. I know it's unintentional, it's just an accidental thing with the actors, but it's there anyway.

[phoenics]

Me three!

[ruby24]

Since there was once again zero sexy times for the honeymoon, which was offscreen, the only thing I can hope if for a reunion when he gets out of prison? And if I'm right in predicting Iris will be pregnant by the season hopefully they can find it in them to give Barry and Iris at least one love scene before that happens.

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, Trini said:

would they give Killer Frost a love interest, or have her date anyone?

That would be cool.  And we know from the crossover that Mick is interested, at least.  Ralph is probably a little "hot" for her too.  Though he might consider watching this before he tries anything.

[Trini]

While I've liked seeing Cynthia as Cisco's girlfriend, they need to bring back awesome interdimensional bounty hunter Cynthia.

[SevenStars]

10 hours ago, ruby24 said:

Me too. Ever since the first season. To be honest, he's the only person I've ever seen her have any chemistry with. I know it's unintentional, it's just an accidental thing with the actors, but it's there anyway.

I agree it has been there since the first season. And I know it would never happen but it would be an interesting pairing.

[Trini]

Well, I'm glad Barry & Iris got a (offscreen) honeymoon, because they didn't even get one full episode of being happily married before they got separated AGAIN. (I mean superhero relationships always have drama, but they need a break!) Hopefully, TPTB are planning some type of commitment ceremony for them later on, since they clearly weren't as pleased with what happened in the crossover.

[legaleagle53]

On 12/6/2017 at 9:14 PM, ruby24 said:

Since there was once again zero sexy times for the honeymoon

Which Ralph rather stupidly interrupted when he accidentally set off an alarm at S.T.A.R. Labs, forcing Barry and Iris to cut their honeymoon short, according to a short (but very funny) deleted scene.  The if-looks-could-kill expressions on Barry and Iris's faces when Ralph tells them what happened are priceless -- to say nothing of IRIS going to kick Ralph's ass before Barry holds her back!

[CabotCove]

10 Best and 10 Worst Couples in the Arrowverse

https://lylesmoviefiles.com/2017/12/12/ranking-the-arrowverse-relationships/

 

Top 10 Best Couples

#1. Barry and Iris 

Throughout the Arrowverse, only one has captured the best elements of its comic book inspiration while carving out its own sensational lane. Despite Barry’s best efforts to screw things up occasionally, Iris is his lightning rod and he’ll always be drawn back to her. Iris helps make Barry better, not just as a superhero, but a person as well. And Barry has helped Iris have greater confidence in her abilities whether being a daring reporter or leading Team Flash.

Dealing with a speedster has also helped Iris’ patience, which is likely the only reason she didn’t clock Felicity after she hijacked their sweet, impromptu wedding. The Flash writers realized they could stretch the inevitable out, but with this kind of couple, the only recourse was to run with it.

Edited December 15, 2017 by HeroLeague

[legaleagle53]

Because Cecile's daughter was working that night as a stripper at the club that Ralph dragged the guys to for Barry's bachelor party -- only nobody knew it at the time. *see below*

4 hours ago, doram said:

Yes and yes to this. Throw in Felicity too, since per the crossover she and Iris are supposed to be such.good.friends. They've known each other since season 1 but the show never bothered creating a bond between the two women. If anything, they've had both Caitlin and Felicity acting covertly and overtly against Iris's interest throughout the series. To suddenly have them be Iris's choice for bridesmaids was horrifying. Almost as horrifying as Iris asking her future stepmother out on her hen night. (Why couldn't they have had Cecile's daughter in that party instead???)

Edited December 16, 2017 by legaleagle53

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, doram said:

Yes, I know that. I found that plot line offensive - and pointless. 

I was too busy laughing at the stupid to be offended.  Cecile's daughter is working in a job that objectifies and degrades women because of feminism?  What the fuck ever, Kreisberg, maybe your new lack of employment will give you the time to catch half a clue about women but I doubt it.

[Trini]

On 12/15/2017 at 2:32 PM, doram said:

And yes, I agree that that wedding where Iris was surrounded by all of Barry's friends and family and having no one to support her, was horrible.

I would have preferred Linda, and maybe (even if it was less than ideal) a couple never-before-seen family extended West family members; but Iris did have family and friends at the wedding. They could always do better, but I'd rather not ignore the things she does have.
 

On 12/15/2017 at 2:32 PM, doram said:

Second, E-2!HR/Caitlin could have developed over the past seasons, instead of this rotating door of love interests they keep bringing in to reassure viewers that DP is still regarded as an attractive woman even though she's not the leading lady. Instead of adding bloat like Tricia B and Draco Malfoy and potentially this Stretch guy, they could have been developing the interpersonal relationships between the existing cast more.

I think a Harry/Caitlin relationship has potential, but I doubt the show would actually go there because of the significant age difference. That's not a dealbreaker for most; it just that it's that it's the CW, and they'd try to pair her up with anyone else younger and hotter.

I agree they need to develop the relationships between the cast more. Although, I think outside of relationships involving Barry, Cisco/Caitlin and Cisco/Harry have had the best development.

[Trini]

I was just thinking about how everyone was paired up last season, and so far only 3 couples have (Barry/Iris, Joe/Cecile, and Cisco/Cynthia) have survived into Season 4. The show does like pairing characters up, but I think TPTB are pretty happy with the stable couples they have now, so I don't think there will be any more serious romantic relationships for now.

[johntfs]

I guess in my head I compare the relationship between Barry and Iris to the one with Chuck and Sarah in the show, Chuck.  Chuck and Sarah are also pretty clearly the endgame in that show.  While the two are attracted to each other, they do date other people and really don't start dating officially until the 14th episode of Season 3.  They get engaged in the 13th episode of season 4 and are married in the 24th episode of season 4. 

Consider as well Castle and Beckett in the show, Castle.  Despite years of flirting and dating other people, they don't fully come together until the 23rd episode of Season 4.  He asks her to marry him in the 24th episode of season 5, the season finale.  In the season premiere of season 6, she says yes.  They finally get married in the 6th episode of season 7.

Meanwhile, Barry and Iris really official start dating in Season two, episode 22 and that continues after he re-resets time as of the 2nd episode of Season 3.  Barry and Iris move in together by episode 10 of season 3.  He asks her to marry him in episode 14 and then after their breakup and makeup in episode 23 of season 3, the season finale.  As of the beginning of episode 9 of Season 4 (since they were actually married in episode 8 of Legends of Tomorrow which is a other set of complaints) Barry and Iris are Barry and Iris West-Allen.  Compared to the previous couples Barry and Iris went from dating to marriage in a flash.

Edited December 21, 2017 by johntfs

[ruby24]

I would agree that the timeline of them dating, moving in together, getting engaged and getting married actually happened really fast, once it started happening. I myself would have predicted a wedding at the end of Season 4 at the earliest, assuming they were going to get together in Season 3.

But I also kind of think that the show thinks they can do it like this with them, because they're thinking ahead to characters they want to bring on the show, like the Tornado Twins and Bart Allen (and perhaps others), and they maybe feel like Barry and Iris have to be married before they can launch into those stories involving speedster descendants from the future, that spring from their union.

Once Dawn Allen actually appeared at their wedding, I think this theory was confirmed. They want to move ahead to storylines involving future Allens at some point, and they need Barry and Iris married in order to do that.

Edited December 19, 2017 by ruby24

[Trini]

2 hours ago, johntfs said:

Barry and Iris are Barry and Iris West-Allen.  Compared to the previous couples Barry and Iris went from dating to marriage in a flash.

They've moved pretty quick with them even in Season 1 (the love declaration, the first kiss, etc.). Because they aren't a 'will-they-won't-they' couple, they're the 'always-meant-to-be' couple. The drama for them is how will they stay together through all the difficulties. Not every couple has to go back and forth. [ETA: Barry & Iris are somewhat similar to Lois & Clark(the TV show) that way.]
 

1 hour ago, doram said:

Even Barry's "she's not Iris".... compare that to Ross's "she's not Rachel." In the latter, it was an impetus for Ross to end the relationship with Jenny - the marker that yeah, no matter how perfect Jenny was, she just couldn't compare... With the former, it was an impetus for Barry to try to find love elsewhere.

I don't know about Friends, but the other interpretation is that Barry was settling for Patty because he couldn't be with Iris.
 

Quote

And to all intents and purposes, Barry was happy with Patty. There's no indication that he was ever anything less than 100% satisfied with the relationship and it's telling that it's her actions that end the relationship, not his own. 

Well, they weren't going to have the lead be the 'bad guy' when they were going to put him together with his true love soon thereafter. On the other hand, in the end, Barry couldn't be fully honest with her, so that caused the break-up.

Edited December 19, 2017 by Trini

[ruby24]

3 hours ago, doram said:

 Yes, this is what I mean about the half hearted of Westallen. If the writers were interested in their story, they'd have tied Barry's inability to confide with Patty to his feelings for Iris and they'd have done it plainly. It won't have been subtext. It'd be text. That was their last chance to swing back to "she's not Iris" and they missed it.

I would agree with that. I thought so at the time as well. I was always very confused as to how strangely handled that was. Maybe they didn't want to have Iris jealous if she was supposed to be grieving Eddie (which they also never showed), but they also didn't want Barry to be only half-heartedly into Patty because that would have been a direct repeat of Linda. 

Even so, despite the fact that they didn't tie it to Iris, I never got the idea that he was that into Patty. Certainly not the way he was with Iris. Especially given the way the relationship ended. He didn't try at all to make her stay, he never really wanted to tell her he was the Flash, etc.

[BaggythePanther]

15 hours ago, ruby24 said:

I would agree that the timeline of them dating, moving in together, getting engaged and getting married actually happened really fast, once it started happening. I myself would have predicted a wedding at the end of Season 4 at the earliest, assuming they were going to get together in Season 3.

But I also kind of think that the show thinks they can do it like this with them, because they're thinking ahead to characters they want to bring on the show, like the Tornado Twins and Bart Allen (and perhaps others), and they maybe feel like Barry and Iris have to be married before they can launch into those stories involving speedster descendants from the future, that spring from their union.

Once Dawn Allen actually appeared at their wedding, I think this theory was confirmed. They want to move ahead to storylines involving future Allens at some point, and they need Barry and Iris married in order to do that.

 

14 hours ago, Trini said:

They've moved pretty quick with them even in Season 1 (the love declaration, the first kiss, etc.). Because they aren't a 'will-they-won't-they' couple, they're the 'always-meant-to-be' couple. The drama for them is how will they stay together through all the difficulties. Not every couple has to go back and forth. [ETA: Barry & Iris are somewhat similar to Lois & Clark(the TV show) that way.]

 

I agree with @doram that the writers don’t seem that interested in writing WestAllen but I think the posts I quoted above are the reasons why. The couple is ‘destined to be together’ and everyone watching knows it, so there’s no reason to “turn the show into a soap opera” and drag out the conclusion. I think the writers real interest in getting Barry and Iris together is so the show can introduce their speedster descendants.

Edited December 19, 2017 by BaggythePanther

[BaggythePanther]

From the “Don’t Run” thread:

Quote

And I do like that they aren't sacrificing the romance but are also not letting the romance cannibalize the show.  We are getting a nice amount of Barry/Iris that deepens their relationship but it isn't at the expense of the bigger plot.

I feel like the writers are setting up Clifford and his wife as a villainous contrast to Barry and Iris. I’m sure that the final fight will come down to Barry and Clifford. But I think along the way they’re going to attempt to show how both men need their wives’ support. That’s why Iris has repeatedly said “we’re the Flash” and Clifford has said that he couldn’t complete his master plan without his wife’s help.

 

If that is the plan I hope the writers can pull it off while still letting the women keep their agency.

[tofutan]

Quote

I haven't watched any of those shows so I can't comment, but weren't they all launched a decade ago? TV plots these days have a much faster pac. In more recent TV on TheCW network - Elena and Stefan got together in season 1 of TVD, before the Winter break; Jane and Raphael got together, and broke up in the first season of JaneTheVirgin; Elijah and Hayley got together in season 1 Originals (while she was still pregnant with his brother's child!); Karamel happened within episodes of season 2 after Mon-El's arrival, etc. Despite the confusion of Olicity and Laurel-hate, Oliver and Laurel fell into bed together in the season 1 finale. 

1.) Not all shows are going to follow the same formula. Maybe Flash is intentionally opting for a very classic formula. 

2.) I would also second guess that those shows are necessarily  comparable. 

Starting with: Stefan and Elena did not end up together. He "ended up" with Caroline and she ended up with Damon, both couples that took considerably longer to sleep together (or to cite another show, on Lost Kate and Sawyer slept together much earlier than Kate and Jack, yet Kate/Jack was the endgame). And Elijah and Hayley might or might not be endgame, but they were also arguably not the main couple, because Klaus is the main character, they are more comparable to Cisco/Gypsy (I think the show was trying to make Klaus/Camille their core couple, but eventually could not defeat the shadow of Klaus/Caroline and gave up on it). I find it generally hard to compare Flash's situation with shows that are still ongoing because we don't know whether those couples will be endgame. We don't know whether Karamel will be endgame, they could be testing Kara/Brainiac 5 or it could end up with Kara/nobody or new writers might come and introduce yet another completely new character and it should be noted that Karamel were also thrown a major curveball with him being mostly off screen this season and returning with a wife (and that is still 100% from Kreisberg). That's why people bring up old shows that have already conlcuded like Smallville or Friends or Bones because on those shows we know who ended up with whom. 

I also doubt that you can really compare Flash, a more action-adventure type show with a clear main character in Barry to more "soap" type shows like Jane the Virgin, Gossip Girl or even The Originals and TVD. Or even to other action adventure shows like Gifted or Runaways who don't have this same structure of everything revolving about the one lead character. 

Arrow I think was intentionally set up as a contrast (darker! more sexual!) to Smallville, while Flash was following the Smallville mold a bit more. 

I think a lot of writers like writing the main guy pining for the girl, like Barry in s1, like Ollie in s1. But when a male writer writes this from the male character's point of view, they often also have a counter reaction about how sad and cruel that is for the main character to have to wait, so he gets to have a girl for himself as "revenge" (like Patty for Barry and Sara for Oliver). But that doesn't mean that the original girl wasn't planned to be the main girl.  And that usually isn't part of the in show characterization that this is for revenge, because they write from the point of view of lead character and they want them to be blameless. So of course the character is not actually doing it out of revenge, even if that is the motivation of the writer (yes even if they set up the pining situation themselves)

FWIW: I think Supergirl is most comparable to Once Upon A Time. Female lead. Familial relationships play a huge role. And the original OTP (Neal/Bealfire) got replaced by a guy who joined the show at a later date (Hook). Or course Neal actually died rather than being demoted but sticking around like James. Then again, a nicer guy being replaced by a "more interesting" edgier guy isn't really an exclusively white on black issue, as we can see with Damon "winning" Elena over Stefan, or Logan "winning" Veronica Mars over Duncan.

Edited December 29, 2017 by tofutan

[ruby24]

I would argue that even Smallville was more sexual than The Flash. There WERE sex scenes on that show eventually and Clark/Lana and Clark/Lois always got plenty of passionate kissing in a way that's just not depicted on this show. Not even for its main couple.

[tofutan]

I agree that Smallville had more sex scenes. But the point was about couples getting together quickly. Smallville's chosen couples took a long time till they were in bed together with each other, but when it happened then Smallville delivered. 

But the argument we started off with was whether Westallen is a fast or a slow couple, with some people saying them being married by season 4 already seems fast and others saying that the fact that Mon-El and Kara had sex within half a season of their story starting showed that the writers were not dedicated to Westallen, because if they were then they would have had sex earlier. I disagree, again, consider that one of couples in support of this concept, Stefan and Elena actually both had them end up with other people on the long run. 

The writers dragging things out and throwing interloper and time pass relationships in their way to me is not an indicator they don't like the couple. Again using Lana and Clark as an example. The writers were clearly all over that couple but they didn't have actual sex till season 5. IMO couples getting together quickly can just as frequently be a really bad sign. Yes Clark and Lana also didn't end up together, but that could only happen after the original creators had to leave the show. Otherwise Clois might never have been done or done in the way it was done in the end. 

Kara and Mon-El also haven't had a proper love scene either, though we have seen them in bed together/the show is very clear of them sleeping in one bed, it has never been shown in a sexual manner either. In their post coital scene Mon-El was alone in her bed. And the scene where they were both in bed together they were fully dressed (and it was a dream sequence).

I don't see why that is supposed to be superior to what Westallen got here, as Barry here is shirtless and what Iris wears can much more easily be interpreted as sexy night clothing (and neither couple is heading for sex in their scene): 

Edited December 29, 2017 by tofutan

[ruby24]

Supergirl acknowledged Kara and Mon-el's first time though, which The Flash, stunningly, did not for Barry and Iris. That was a shocking oversight that no other show would have done for its MAIN couple. I couldn't believe it and still can't.

[tofutan]

I agree it's weird. But I do think that it is still worth noting that this is not so much a question of graphicality (and it should be noted the placement at the end of the season, combined with the Arroverse shows' tendency to always do timejumps probably contributed). The makeout that preceeded things (fully clothed on the couch) did not exceed what we have seen Barry and Iris do. The acknowledgement came in the form of Mon-El waking up alone in bed and Kara and Mon-El acknowledging verbally that they had a good time. 

I want to mention it because I see people here talking explicitly about "bed scenes" or Barry and Iris not being shown in bed together. When they have been. When it is noted that it wasn't necessarily in a sexual context, so neither was the one time Kara and Mon-El were shown in bed together. 

By comparison, Alex and Maggie on Supergirl have had both a scene where the kiss in bed: 

And one where they lie together presumably post coital (though ... still kind of dressed) and talk about how good it was: 

 

And of course their first time was acknowledged in a similar way from Kara and Mon-El, by them talking about it (outside of bed) and joking about skipping work: 

 

Does that mean that Alex and Maggie were oversexualized? Clearly not I would say if you look at those scenes. Or that Kara and Mon-El are being held back romantically just because they haven't gotten similar "post coital together" scenes? No, because they've been different kind of scenes, because their "thing" is usually more jokey stuff or melodramatic goodbyes. IMO the writers gave Alex and Maggie those scenes because they wanted to give the fans something nice because bad times were ahead for them. So there was a context to those scenes. 

Granted, I could be wrong and Kara and Mon-El or Mon-El and Imra or Kara and somebody else might eventually get a more traditional love scene (more comparable to Smallville's Clark and Lana or Clark and Lois), after all, Kara and Mon-El have only had 1,5 years compared to Westallen's 3,5 years of storylines., but so far the explicitness of what is shown on screen by the directors strikes me as being comparable. Which is to say both are less explicit than Arrow or even Smallville where their main pairings  are concerned. 

Edited December 29, 2017 by tofutan

[Trini]

11 hours ago, tofutan said:

...

I think a lot of writers like writing the main guy pining for the girl, like Barry in s1, like Ollie in s1. But when a male writer writes this from the male character's point of view, they often also have a counter reaction about how sad and cruel that is for the main character to have to wait, so he gets to have a girl for himself as "revenge" (like Patty for Barry and Sara for Oliver). But that doesn't mean that the original girl wasn't planned to be the main girl.  And that usually isn't part of the in show characterization that this is for revenge, because they write from the point of view of lead character and they want them to be blameless. So of course the character is not actually doing it out of revenge, even if that is the motivation of the writer (yes even if they set up the pining situation themselves)

...

 

I disagree that other love interests are brought in for "revenge". I think it's a typical plot device draw out the tension/story longer; standard triangle stuff. Plus, it always seems like writers want the male lead to have options before settling down, so I wasn't surprised or worried (...much) when they introduced Patty.

[tofutan]

Quote

Even before the sex, Clana was being written by the Smallville writers in a way that Westallen was not. 

I totally disagree. Westallen had plenty of OTP markers in the sense of Iris being the one able to reach him, encourage him, them dating even in other world (note how Kara is with Oliver in a parallel universe, not Mon-El,, while with Westallen it is them or it is left undefined, Supergirl is an interesting case because both Mon-El and James had to share their OTP marker moments with Alex, which is why to me Kara and James were already being undercut by the writing as an OTP long before Mon-El joined the show, he just happened to be undercut in favor of Alex,. Flash has some of that too with Barry and Joe, but I would argue that it is done not quite as aggressively as it was on Supergirl. If the show had actually bothered to write proper OTP markers for James in season 1 then it wouldn't have been quite so easy for Mon-El to break into the mold in season 1. To me Kara/James were treated quite shabbily in season 1 in regards to OTP moment, and that one I blame at least as much on Ali Adler in my eyes intentionally wanting the female relationships to outshine James and not just Kreisberg being a dick. People were blinded by Lucy not being an obstacle, they overlook how often James was passed over for true larger than life OTP moments, how Kara and James was clearly being handled as being inferior and lightweight compared to Kara/Alex).

I was neither a Clana fan nor a Clana hater, but the writing was way more cruel to them at times in regards to for example how the secret situation was handled or how Lana dating other people was handled. 

To me, Westallen feels like an improved version of Clana or many of those will they-won't they couples in many ways, precisely because it is stilll a slower moving ship, but it actually was allowed to get together in what I consider a reasonable pace, get married and be supportive married on screen. 

And I think the show has actually worked quite hard to undercut Barry and Caitlin from having OTP markers and underplaying their scenes. Like Barry showing a lack of jealousy or not showing that much concern when bad things happen to her, while his worry over Iris drove all of season 3. Whether Kara and Mon-El or Westallen have better OTP markers (I think mileage likely varies a lot on that one) to me doesn't really change that nobody else's OTP markers come close on Flash. Just because Caitlin being allowed to stick around and get stories irks Westallen fans doesn't really change that Caitlin and Barry don't really have comparable OTP markers. 

That's why I don't buy the conspiracy theory that Iris was set up for failure. To me the OTP markers were there and the writers signalled early where the story was going with the whole Iris West-Allen headline,with it always being treated like something terrible and motivating when that headline changed. 

Quote

 Plus, it always seems like writers want the male lead to have options before settling down, so I wasn't surprised or worried (...much) when they introduced Patty.

I wasn't worried either, but I can see how some love interests can annoy shippers with how much they get given. Oliver and Sara being a core example of it being written in a style that actually lowered Laurel. I don't think that it is that unusual though that there are more forgettable side pieces (like the basically non-existant Mon-El and Eve or Barry and Linda) and more sizable ones that are supposed to create larger angst. 

I do think that on occasion some side stories have an undertone of revenge by the writer, or at the least in the form of balance. Like, okay Iris had one, now Barry gets one or else he'll look needy. Okay so Mon-El pined for Kara for a season while Kara acted less emotionally available, now Kara will cry over him for a season while he acts less emotionally available. 

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 TVD was show-ran by Kevin Williamson for the first 3 seasons before he handed over the reigns to Julie Plec.

The first markers for Delena started before season 4. (just so you know, I hate Delena and I stopped watching because of them, but I stopped watching before season 4 because the writing on the wall was there before already. Stelena also had its own problems outside of Damon particularly in regards to how Katherine was handled. People ignored it just like people ignored Kara/Alex because they didn't perceive it as a threat, but to me that too did its own thing in undercutting the main relationship) 

Even if Kevin preferred Stelena, he obviously didn't love them enough to stay on the show for them or to give them their happy end, no matter the fallout (that you can reverse tons of build up for other couples in one episode: look no farther than How I Met Your Mother). 

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It's not a question of if Karamel get back together but when and how.

Considering that Supergirl is getting a new headwriter, that seems rather unsure to me. Since it is not unsual for a new headwriter to bring in their own OTP. At the same time, I have exactly zero worry that Kreisberg's exit will lead to major change in the status of Westallen. Maybe the tone of Westallen might shift, for the better or the worse, but to me Flash has done a much better job es establishing Westallen as a true fixture than Supergirl (and not just because of marriage and children). Chris Wood/Mon-El said back in the day that he was originally pitched a 2 year arc, so the story could still very easily end with him leaving and them being torn apart for good and Kara "finding love again". Because Mon-El isn't really firmly interlaced with any other characters than Kara he can exit very easily. 

Edited December 30, 2017 by tofutan

[tofutan]

Quote

I agree with the first paragraph, not the second. I think there might be some need for "balance", as you said - not revenge. But the most important role the "hypothenus" role is to prop the main OTP. Eddie (first half of season 1) is a very good example of this. He reaffirms that Iris is, well, a catch. i.e. she's objectively desirable by most men, not just Barry. By his own admission, Eddie is threatened by Barry (and the Flash separately) - indicating that there are 2 things to be threatened about: 1, that Barry is, despite his dorkiness, also a "catch" and that 2, Barry and Iris have a relationship/connection that would be threatening to Iris's boyfriend. 

Whether there is need for revenge or not doesn't change that some writers are petty and still write it that way. 

Also, there is the common theory that there are two types of interlopers, at the end of the day completely unimportant ones that are only there to be trampled on and the slightly more meaningful ones, usually around to teach the hero a lesson. I remember Chuck from Gossip Girl having a bunch of those and that other blonde that Logan from Veronica Mars dated for a significant amount of time (I wanna say Meg? I'm not sure) strike me as being like this. 

IMO, most of the moves in Westallen make a lot more sense if you stop reading it as Iris story and read it primarily as Barry's story. From a Barry's journey POV it makes sense that he would get to bang other women and allowed for it to be guilt free, so the show rearranges things in order for Barry to have maximum freedom. Just like from a Barry point of view it's no problem that Caitlin is still running around, it's only if you look at the show through Iris glasses that it feels insulting that Iris sort of competitor is still allowed to run around, having her own independent storylines rather than just being around to prop Iris (kind of like James is allowed to still run around, but he is used to prop Karamel). But to me that doesn't mean that the writers ever had any doubt about Iris being "crown jewel number one/the end goal" just because they also wanted Barry to play the field a bit.

I think the case for this conspiracy theory is rather weak. As many people noted, early Westallen was of high dedicated quality and by season 2 it was very clear that that's where they were heading. The argument about how Caitlin was featured in promotion to me doesn't hold water because promotion is a CW topic, not a show topic and from the writing I think it is very clear that the writers very deftly put a lid on it very quickly. even aside from it not really fitting the typical relationship template that particularly male writers prefer, where the man is the chaser from the start.  

Yes, Barry dated Patty. Yes Iris disappeared during this for a while. But to me this can just as well be explained by the writers seeing Barry as their golden boy. Doesn't mean that they didn't always have every intention to get back to Westallen eventually. They just happen to value Iris a lot less than they value Barry. This is not atypical. Oliver was also valued more highly than the women he dated and Kara was also valued more highly than James when they dated in season 1. Yes it is sad for the fans of Iris or just of fans who want a more equal relationship, but that doesn't mean that there is a conspiracy against the couple. It just means that a lot of writers are pretty shitty. You can't force writers to "feel" a couple or feel them precisely the same way you do. 

As I said in the Lightning Rod topic, I do think (with the caveat that I don't think that the difference in what is shown is that big between Westallen and Karamel at this point) that how the writers see Westallen might very likely be influenced by race, that they might be putting Iris into a box that say both "main love interest" but also "1950s style love interest". Where the writers are behind her, but still missing the point at the same time too, by not getting the nuances right. 

For what it's worth: I don't think that Barry's non reaction is a sign of shippyness. The point of shippyness is emotion. Barry being totally beside himself and it being a huge issue and there being a huge storyline all about how she has to personally and directly win back his trust weighs much more in the context of shippyness. 

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Which has been my point all along. That when a writer "feels" a ship, they really don't care what came beforehand, or what source material canon dictates or whether it's been "built up" enough. 

I still think some things are a lot harder to erease than others. You said yourself, Julie had to do some pretty extreme things to get Delena together. Even though Gough and Millar didn't want Clois, they still didn't manage to write Lois completely disrepectfully compared to how they wrote others (for example, the way Lois was dating Oliver, a fairly high value male character). I don't buy that Marc Guggenheim liked Laurel at all and he was likely the instigator behind writing her off (since Kreisberg had already moved on to Flash at this point), but even in his universe Laurel shows up for the 100th episode and Lauriver were still some sort of couple in Black Sirens universe. Some couples are inherently more flimsy and easy to dismantel than others, even if the writer intention is there. 

Edited December 30, 2017 by tofutan

[Kate45]

Hi all,

I am new around here, but I'm excited to jump into this conversation about the handling of relationships. This is one of my favorite tv shows!

15 hours ago, doram said:

The problem with Barry/Patty in 2A was that there were only 2 people in that relationship: Barry and Patty. No Iris. She had no dynamic in it. Apart from the throwaway "she's not Iris", the entire relationship exists purely for Barry and Patty. And there is absolutely no way that if the writers felt a smidgen of enthusiasm for Westallen, that they'd have written Barry/Patty this way. 

Similarly, it's also telling that there's never been any other props since the writers ticked the checklist of getting Westallen together.

This is a fantastic point, but I think this was done by design. Think back to the season 1 critics of Iris. So many of them complained that she "broke-up Linda and Barry". Even though Barry behaved in similar ways with Eddie/Iris, Barry was largely given a pass. As a WestAllen shipper, I am glad that Iris was not inserted in anyway in the Patty/Barry relationship, so that she can't be blamed for their breakup. It's also important to keep in mind that a different show runner was at the helm from episodes 2.01 - 2.09. 

 

15 hours ago, doram said:

Oh I definitely think that by 2B, the writers had resigned themselves to Westallen. But they had no enthusiasm for it. Their "slower moving ship" is not by design, but by accident, the consequence of the uncertainty/reluctance of committing to Westallen from about mid-way of Season 1 to mid-way of Season 2, basically a whole season's length of the show being undecided about their OTP. 

I already said earlier that the Flash writers are not going to jeopardise Westallen now. They might not be happy about it, but they are intelligent and professional enough to see that it obviously works. 

Umm, I have never sen it from this perspective. I actually think that the writers generally love WestAllen, and they have said as much in several interviews. In fact, Berlanti was one of the writers for the Flashpoint (3x01) episode that helped to further confirm that Barry and Iris always find each other in any earth or timeline. I think they like the relationship.  

I just don't think they intended to have them start dating as quickly as they did. I remember listening to a podcast from one of the writers on the Trajectory episode (I think it was 2.16?), and she mentioned that she had written several other scenes of Barry and Iris flirting outside of the club scene, but that AJK kiboshed those scenes because they weren't doing WestAllen just yet. I actually think the change of gears in episode 2.20 and 2.21 came because they started planning to season 3, and the story wouldn't work very well if they weren't in a relationship. 

 

On 12/19/2017 at 0:49 AM, Trini said:

On 12/18/2017 at 10:46 PM, johntfs said:

Barry and Iris are Barry and Iris West-Allen.  Compared to the previous couples Barry and Iris went from dating to marriage in a flash.

They've moved pretty quick with them even in Season 1 (the love declaration, the first kiss, etc.). Because they aren't a 'will-they-won't-they' couple, they're the 'always-meant-to-be' couple. The drama for them is how will they stay together through all the difficulties. Not every couple has to go back and forth. [ETA: Barry & Iris are somewhat similar to Lois & Clark(the TV show) that way.]

I think the quick fashion of their romantic relationship makes sense, especially since they have know each other for 2 decades. Also, in the original timeline, the one from before Eobard killed Barry's mom, Barry and Iris get married at a younger age. But, we now we know that the plan was for Barry and Iris to get married in this most recent crossover since November 2016. So, while the storyline dictated it, I still think it makes sense. 

Also, think about the other relationships on this show. They move at a stupid fast-pace! Jesse/Wally, Cisco/Cynthia, Caitlin/Jay, Caitlin/Julian, Patty/Barry, and Joe/Cecile. They all moved very quickly, almost to the point that it's not believable. 

20 hours ago, tofutan said:

That's why I don't buy the conspiracy theory that Iris was set up for failure. To me the OTP markers were there and the writers signalled early where the story was going with the whole Iris West-Allen headline,with it always being treated like something terrible and motivating when that headline changed. 

I completely agree with this. Going back to season 1, nearly (if not all) major breakthroughs with Barry's powers are connected to a situation with Iris. In 1x05, he does the SuperSonic punch to save her from Girder, Iris is the one who introduces the Flash to Central City, in 1x15 after kissing Iris, he time travels for the first time, and she broke his Grodd mental hold in 1x21. In season 2, it's the first time that show that Iris is his Lightning Rod. They even created an entire episode about him no longer being the Flash because she dies. 

20 hours ago, tofutan said:

And I think the show has actually worked quite hard to undercut Barry and Caitlin from having OTP markers and underplaying their scenes. Like Barry showing a lack of jealousy or not showing that much concern when bad things happen to her, while his worry over Iris drove all of season 3. Whether Kara and Mon-El or Westallen have better OTP markers (I think mileage likely varies a lot on that one) to me doesn't really change that nobody else's OTP markers come close on Flash. Just because Caitlin being allowed to stick around and get stories irks Westallen fans doesn't really change that Caitlin and Barry don't really have comparable OTP markers. 

That's why I don't buy the conspiracy theory that Iris was set up for failure. To me the OTP markers were there and the writers signalled early where the story was going with the whole Iris West-Allen headline,with it always being treated like something terrible and motivating when that headline changed. 

 

15 hours ago, doram said:

Barry's non-reactions to Caitlin's several betrayals in season 3 - keeping a piece of the Stone/Rock thingy... joining Savitar and helping him - are actually subtle, maybe even subconscious ways that the writers made clear which woman they prioritised over the other.

I don't think the handling of Caitlin with kid gloves has anything to do with shipping at all. In general, this show tends to have any mistakes done by Iris or Caitlin as near non-factors, again starting with season 1. When Caitlin was wanting to go to Wells with Barry's suspicions, he didn't have much to say to her. When she lied about creating that Velocity-9 for Jay, she was again let off the hook. In season 3 , Caitlin had the stone, and it was a non-reaction. Heck, Killer Frost tried to kill Barry, Cisco, thought she helped kill Iris, actually helped kill HR, and they begged her to come back to the team.  Even in this season, Caitlin didn't tell the team about Killer Frost not being under control. They didn't hold it against her. At this point, the whole team knows that both Caitlin and Killer Frost worked for a human trafficking ring. Have they said one word to her? 

When Iris kept the secret about Wally, no one said anything to her, same thing for when the team didn't tell Joe about Iris' impending death. For some reason, Barry got the brunt of Joe's anger. 

Now contrast those reactions with the times that Cisco and Wally have made mistakes. Both of them were berated by Barry and the team. It is especially evident in 3x15, when Wally was practically thrown off the team for not saying that he was seeing Savitar, but Caitlin was hardly given any blowback. 

Edited December 31, 2017 by Kate45

[BkWurm1]

On 12/11/2017 at 9:08 PM, legaleagle53 said:

Which Ralph rather stupidly interrupted when he accidentally set off an alarm at S.T.A.R. Labs, forcing Barry and Iris to cut their honeymoon short, according to a short (but very funny) deleted scene.  The if-looks-could-kill expressions on Barry and Iris's faces when Ralph tells them what happened are priceless -- to say nothing of IRIS going to kick Ralph's ass before Barry holds her back!

I don't understand why Barry didn't just zip them back to their honeymoon.  

On 12/29/2017 at 6:16 AM, ruby24 said:

Supergirl acknowledged Kara and Mon-el's first time though, which The Flash, stunningly, did not for Barry and Iris. That was a shocking oversight that no other show would have done for its MAIN couple. I couldn't believe it and still can't.

I can think of two examples that had it worse.  X-Files and Bones.  In both cases the audience didn't know they'd slept together until after they found out they were pregnant!  

[legaleagle53]

11 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I don't understand why Barry didn't just zip them back to their honeymoon.  

Do you know how hard it is to run in flip-flops?

[BkWurm1]

He has other shoes, lol.  

[tofutan]

Quote

But this actually proves the point, doesn't it? For one thing, Caitlin and Iris do not have - or more accurately, should not have the same narrative structure. That they're being written the same way in the first place, been given equal narrative "leniency" is already a sign that the writers are either elevating Caitlin above Iris or they are demeaning Iris. 

But the whole point is that "leniency" is not necessarily a compliment. Because Barry, their main character who they love gets stories about fallout (as does Oliver on Arrow). Fallout is a compliment, ignoring the actions of a character is the disservice. It's the writers signalling that the character is not important enough to have characters take their actions seriously. 

It doesn't show that the show considers both Iris and Caitlin so high that they don't get called out for behavior that might upset other characters, it shows that both, as women and side characters, are valued so low that the show is not interested in doing a big story about people reacting to what they did and the fallout from it. The reason why they let Caitlin do these things is because they want to keep using her as a plot machine, to bring on new badguy type situations. And it should be noted that a decent amount of times, the opportunities she brings are used to show off Cisco, not Barry. So she is being kept around to make Cisco look good more than to make Barry look good, because the writers don't actually value Barry and Caitlin as any sort of consistent relationship, neither romantic nor platonic (on the platonic side: I think Joe and Barry are valued, as are Cisco and Caitlin). 

And yes, Barry or other characters clearly get let off the hook and barred from longterm consequences too, sometimes because the writers seem to genuinely not understand why the audience even considers something a bad thing, sometimes because they think the nature of the disapproval could hurt the character. But they also sometimes get their actions be used for big drama and angst scenes. Usually when it can be mined for other characters being mad unfairly or for the motivation to be some sort of big reveal (or on Arrow: if they want guilt as an excuse for broody scenes or if they want Oliver to do certain things). 

Edited December 31, 2017 by tofutan

[Proteus]

On December 6, 2017 at 10:28 PM, Trini said:

I don't think they'll pair up Caitlin with Ralph - which would be a refereshing change of pace. BUT, would they give Killer Frost a love interest, or have her date anyone?

That would be interesting. I'd have loved KF & Mick.

On December 6, 2017 at 11:00 PM, Mellowyellow said:

I always get weird vibes from Harry and Caitlin.

I don't think they mean for me to get weird vibes since he is a lot older but I always get weird vibes! 

At Jitters when Harry told Caitlin that she's special, I picked up major vibes.

[tofutan]

I remember reading some interesting discussions about whether it would be creepy though if KF shacked up with somebody like Mick who Caitlin doesn't like, if that wouldn't be kind of mind-rapey. But it could be an interesting dynamic if somebody started liking and romancing KF and Caitlin only slowly comes around the idea of accepting that person as a suitor. 

[Kate45]

18 minutes ago, Proteus said:

At Jitters when Harry told Caitlin that she's special, I picked up major vibes.

I did, too! It's interesting because the first iteration of the Caitlin character was supposed to be possible love interest for Wells. How old is Caitlin? I'm thinking at least mid-30s? It would be easier to know if the writers would decide exactly what her specialization is!

 

43 minutes ago, tofutan said:

 

Quote

But this actually proves the point, doesn't it? For one thing, Caitlin and Iris do not have - or more accurately, should not have the same narrative structure. That they're being written the same way in the first place, been given equal narrative "leniency" is already a sign that the writers are either elevating Caitlin above Iris or they are demeaning Iris. 

But the whole point is that "leniency" is not a necessarily compliment. Because Barry, their main character who they love gets stories about fallout (as does Oliver on Arrow). Fallout is a compliment, ignoring the actions of a character is the disservice. It's the writers signalling that the character is not important enough to have characters take their actions seriously. 

It doesn't show that the show considers both Iris and Caitlin so high that they don't get called out for behavior that might upset other characters, it shows that both, as women and side characters, are valued so low that the show is not interested in doing a big story about people reacting to what they did and the fallout from it. The reason why they let Caitlin do these things is because they want to keep using her as a plot machine, to bring on new badguy type situations. And it should be noted that a decent amount of times, the opportunities she brings are used to show off Cisco, not Barry. So she is being kept around to make Cisco look good more than to make Barry look good, because the writers don't actually value Barry and Caitlin as any sort of consistent relationship, neither romantic nor platonic (on the platonic side: I think Joe and Barry are valued, as are Cisco and Caitlin). 

 

 

Right. It's like they don't even want to build the story. They do use Caitlin as a plot machine, from the Jay romance to  Killer Frost. Take her specialization and training as an example. When we first met Caitlin she was a biochemist and a geneticist. She was said to have two doctorates in those areas. Somewhere in season 3, they started trying to change her training. Now in season 4 in the mid season finale, she's an MD. It was for the Amunet plot. They don't care enough to be accurate with even her training. I say this as a person who likes Caitlin and Iris. 

They even had Caitlin give Dominic an MRI and then showed the picture of an x-ray. It doesn't make sense.

 

I get that that Iris and Caitlin shouldn't have the same weight in the narrative, and perhaps that will change since AJK is gone. But, the difference between the treatment of the female and male characters is ridiculous.

[Proteus]

48 minutes ago, tofutan said:

I remember reading some interesting discussions about whether it would be creepy though if KF shacked up with somebody like Mick who Caitlin doesn't like, if that wouldn't be kind of mind-rapey. But it could be an interesting dynamic if somebody started liking and romancing KF and Caitlin only slowly comes around the idea of accepting that person as a suitor. 

Anyone whose ever watched a soap opera will know this issue has happened multiple times when a character has had D.I.D. It's a slippery slope. It really depends on if the alternate personality is seen as a symptom or a real being in their own right.

18 minutes ago, Kate45 said:

I did, too! It's interesting because the first iteration of the Caitlin character was supposed to be possible love interest for Wells. How old is Caitlin? I'm thinking at least mid-30s? It would be easier to know if the writers would decide exactly what her specialization is!

Caitlin's in her mid to late 20s. DP is 30. There's a lot of support out there for "Snowells". At this point they might as well just go there.

Edited December 31, 2017 by Proteus

[ruby24]

1 hour ago, Proteus said:

Caitlin's in her mid to late 20s. DP is 30. There's a lot of support out there for "Snowells". At this point they might as well just go there.

I agree. I know it's a big age difference and the CW doesn't do age differences, but let's be honest, it's not like it never happens in real life. Especially with older men and younger women. I don't normally like it for the sleaze factor, but once the younger person is into their thirties, I actually think this becomes less of an issue, depending on the connection between the two people. I could buy Caitlin and Wells. She's always had chemistry with him, strangely enough. They have things in common and there's a real tenderness there. 

They'll never do it, but I honestly believe it's a pairing that could work.

Edited December 31, 2017 by ruby24

[Kate45]

1 hour ago, Proteus said:

Caitlin's in her mid to late 20s. DP is 30. There's a lot of support out there for "Snowells". At this point they might as well just go there.

I love the idea of SnoWells. I think they have nice chemistry, too. They have fanfics and everything. 

As for Caitlin's age, she must be older than that. I know that Danielle is 30, but that doesn't mean Caitlin is as well. 

 

Barry is 28 at this point. Since the writers now have Caitlin as an MD, she should be older than the other characters like Iris, Wally, and Cisco. If she has an MD, she should be at least 5 years older than the rest of the group. That would put her a little closer to Harry's age. Of course, the writers are very inconsistent with her training so there's no way to know how old she is. Either way, I'm on board for a SnoWells romance!