Relationships: Speed Dating

[Grace19]

On 5/26/2017 at 4:06 PM, phoenics said:

So I completely agree with this... but man did I ship the hell out of Savitar and Iris in that scene. I mean - no one can claim GG and CP don't have chemistry after that.  I mean, I was in actualy PAIN watching that scene and how angsty and charged it was.  GG's Savitar just melted into a puddle when CP's Iris touched him and talked to him... and the way she walked over to him before that and he couldn't even look at her?

Good grief - that was so so powerful.

And a fic must happen.  

But I agree that it was whiplash because Savitar had tried to kill her - HER!  Honestly our theories that SAvitar just wanted Barry to think Iris was dead made MUCH more sense because seeing him absolutely melt like that in her hands makes it impossible to believe that he could ever kill her.

I wailed like a wounded animal after Iris told him they were gonna help him and then he said thank you and then they were interrupted but still seemed held together with some invisible string - good lord.

Whew.  

 

On 5/26/2017 at 8:30 PM, BkWurm1 said:

Again, it seems on some level wrong to conjure up a girlfriend for Savitar without the Iris having a say in it, but the fan fic writer could fix that by having the present Iris know deep down that she would want to connect to Savitar, therefore the time remnant could be of an Iris that would have already agreed.

 Or they could go the extra step and set it up that they bring forth an Iris and ask her and if she says, no, they could just return her to the time stream.

Originally I was going to say they could give her the option of just fading away (by not engaging the thing that would stabilize her remnant)  if she didn't want to mend his broken heart but that seemed too close to telling her to do it or die, lol.  

20 hours ago, phoenics said:

I like the idea of finding an Earth without a Barry...  and matching Savitar with that Iris...

You guys have some great ideas, please someone write this and send me the link, lol.

[johntfs]

On 5/26/2017 at 2:30 PM, BkWurm1 said:

Again, it seems on some level wrong to conjure up a girlfriend for Savitar without the Iris having a say in it, but the fan fic writer could fix that by having the present Iris know deep down that she would want to connect to Savitar, therefore the time remnant could be of an Iris that would have already agreed.

Or they could see about helping Savitar fix his face and he can go find his own damn girlfriend.  He can clearly travel through other dimensions (as witness him going to Earth 2).  There's presumably a lot of Irises in the infinite multiverse.

Or our Iris could just shoot him in the fucking head, which I'm completely fine with.

[tofutan]

Iris shooting Savitar reminded me so much of ... General Hospital of all things. Where they have like these mean, supposedly dangerous mobster characters, but they can next to never show them killing somebody on screen or else the fans would be upset. So they always have the "mob moll" characters come in and do the kill for them. 

[Xander]

There was some Cisco/Caitlin (KillerVibe) interest in Season 1 but when someone asked Carlos about it, he was like, "Ew, that would be like kissing his sister" or something along those lines. LOL. It kind of killed the ship. But there are still some shippers 

Edited May 28, 2017 by Xander

[BkWurm1]

21 hours ago, johntfs said:

Or they could see about helping Savitar fix his face and he can go find his own damn girlfriend.  He can clearly travel through other dimensions (as witness him going to Earth 2).  There's presumably a lot of Irises in the infinite multiverse.

Or our Iris could just shoot him in the fucking head, which I'm completely fine with.

If you fixed his face and just set him loose on the multiverse I would expect him to just take a shortcut and find some Barry he can "replace."  I liken the scarring to the words Petra on Jane the Virgin had tattooed on her twin sister's forehead after she tried to take over her life.  Without a clear NOT PETRA stamped on his face (ok, NOT YOUR BARRY) the temptation probably would prove to be too great.  

[johntfs]

3 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

If you fixed his face and just set him loose on the multiverse I would expect him to just take a shortcut and find some Barry he can "replace."  I liken the scarring to the words Petra on Jane the Virgin had tattooed on her twin sister's forehead after she tried to take over her life.  Without a clear NOT PETRA stamped on his face (ok, NOT YOUR BARRY) the temptation probably would prove to be too great.  

Which is why I much prefer the show's option of Iris shooting him in the fucking head.

[phoenics]

I just went back and looked at scenes in S1 with respect to kissing/making out scenes.  I even (lord help me) looked at the HannibalBates and Caitlin kiss, along with Barry and Linda, etc..  Even S1 Barry and Iris definitely had a deeper kiss in episode 15.  Everyone kissed more deeply in S1.

It's night and day from how anyone kisses in S3.  I mean - NIGHT and DAY.  It's actually a bit frustrating that they won't let Barry/Iris let loose the way that they all did in S1 - or anyone.

I don't get it.  I don't think it's the actors - my only guess is that the direction is weak, and/or they keep being forced to tone it down because they know they have a huge kiddie audience and they didn't know they had that audience in S1?  I have a feeling that they thought they were going to have a much more mature show in S1 and then realized their kiddie audience later?

I really have half a mind to beg Zack Stentz for details on why we got steamier kisses in S1, but they couldn't do it in S3.

Even E1 Barry and E2 Iris had a more steamy kiss - on E2 Iris' end (since Barry was playing shocked)... in S2.  What the hell happened in S3?  It's not only affected Barry and Iris - everyone kisses like it's grade school.

It's really irritating.

[GHScorpiosRule]

All this talk of how this show is "kid-friendly" shown at 8:00 being the reason for the lack of passion being shown between Barry and Iris is just bullshit. There has been nothing kid or friendly since the second season.??

And hello! Arrow also airs at the same time, and though it is more violent, it still has wee ones who watch and are fans if any of the pictures from the Cons that I've seen. So Kreisberg and whoever else is using this as a "reason" can just SHUT IT.??

Edited May 30, 2017 by GHScorpiosRule

[Trini]

Anyone can look at what CW has aired in the recent past and they will know it's not the network or the timeslot itself that restricts any 'love scenes'. (I mean, Crazy Ex-Girlfriend  had a song with a sex montage for visuals, for smeg's sake!)

Somebody somewhere (apparently?) made the decision that those type of "hot" scenes don't fit the tone they want. But even if they don't want to do anything that explicit (for network TV), they can still do more and still stay within their "family friendly" zone -- they just don't.

Edited May 31, 2017 by Trini
added dropped word

[ruby24]

I wish they could up the sexiness and intimacy for Barry and Iris in Season 4.

[phoenics]

1 hour ago, ruby24 said:

I wish they could up the sexiness and intimacy for Barry and Iris in Season 4.

I do too.  It will make ZERO sense narratively for Barry to come back after being gone for months and not devour Iris where she stood.  At the very least we should get a really passionate, desperate kiss.

We need to lobby for this or something.

Also - when fans on twitter mentioned the exact same thing - that Arrow airs at 8 - the writers claimed that Flash skews much younger than Arrow in demographics.  I'm inclined to believe that - since Arrow is actually rated TV-14 and The Flash is rated TV-PG.  Supergirl is rated TV-PG, with some episodes rated as TV-14.  

And just to check - I looked up Roswell, which had the kind of chemistry I WANTED to see on The Flash and it's rated TV-14 as well.

It really is the rating folks.  Most soap operas get a TV-14 rating.  I suspect that's why we are seeing what we're seeing.  I just wish they'd give us SOME TV-14 episodes when they need to for Westallen.  We've earned it!

But even with that - they could slip us some tongue, right?  Or at least give Barry/Iris more "scene focus" in the romantic beats, and give them kisses that look more passionate, even without tongue.  A desperate clinch where you can hear the intake of breath reads as more romantic even if there is no tongue.  They really can do better, imo.  

[ruby24]

A naked under the covers, post-coital, pillow talk scene can play on a show with a TV-PG rating. Seriously, I've seen it hundreds of times, on shows that aired at 8pm, for decades. Sitcoms too. It's not a big deal.

They can up the sexual relationship factor with zero problem.

[phoenics]

18 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

A naked under the covers, post-coital, pillow talk scene can play on a show with a TV-PG rating. Seriously, I've seen it hundreds of times, on shows that aired at 8pm, for decades. Sitcoms too. It's not a big deal.

They can up the sexual relationship factor with zero problem.

Well we almost got that - Iris just had a bra on.  I don't actually care about whether she was naked under the sheets - I just wanted a passionate kiss that fades to implied lovemaking AFTER they've shown the kiss sufficiently.  

This is why I wish David Nutter was back.  I believe part of the issue is the rating and part of the issue is the writers.  Like the Star Wars writers, they simply don't seem to know HOW to do this right.  They give you all of the cinematic stuff, they just don't give any steam.  But David Nutter was behind some of the most romantic Max and Liz kisses on Roswell - one was when they peppered each other's faces with soft little kisses (all over) after declaring love to one another while they were on the run.  Just tiny little pecks everywhere - but it was done with such care and so WELL by the direction and actors, that it was just heart meltingly romantic.

If they don't want to get overtly steamy - they could EASILY do more like that - but they need David Nutter to come back.  For real.  That guy knows how to get it done.  I have half a mind to find him, write to him and BEG him to go back to THE Flash just for that.

Edited May 31, 2017 by phoenics

[GHScorpiosRule]

Oh so, showing Henry getting stabbed right through the back, wouldn't traumatized the kids? Or how about the never ending loop of showing Iris being murdered? Through the back with the blade protruding from her chest. Kreisberg is SUCH an asshole. And since he is the one in charge, I'm going to continue to blame him. Yes, I am that petty.?

[ruby24]

41 minutes ago, phoenics said:

Well we almost got that - Iris just had a bra on.  I don't actually care about whether she was naked under the sheets - I just wanted a passionate kiss that fades to implied lovemaking AFTER they've shown the kiss sufficiently.  

Neither of them were naked and it was in the middle of the night with both sleeping on separate sides of the bed- it wasn't immediately post-coital.

For that we need cuddling under the covers right afterwards, come on. That's a pretty standard post-coital bed scene for almost all TV couples and we haven't gotten even that.

[phoenics]

21 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

Neither of them were naked and it was in the middle of the night with both sleeping on separate sides of the bed- it wasn't immediately post-coital.

For that we need cuddling under the covers right afterwards, come on. That's a pretty standard post-coital bed scene for almost all TV couples and we haven't gotten even that.

I was talking about episode 10.  Iris was in a bra underneath the covers and Barry was shirtless.

Honestly - I took the scene in episode 22 to mean they were so preoccupied with death that they were just lost in their own thoughts.  I don't agree with the directing choice though - I thought it would have made more sense for them to be clinging to each other.  

40 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Oh so, showing Henry getting stabbed right through the back, wouldn't traumatized the kids? Or how about the never ending loop of showing Iris being murdered? Through the back with the blade protruding from her chest. Kreisberg is SUCH an asshole. And since he is the one in charge, I'm going to continue to blame him. Yes, I am that petty.?

I'm not disagreeing with you - I'm just looking for reasons based on the ratings.  If it was ONLY Barry/Iris who weren't allowed to do anything past peck kisses, I'd agree that this was totally racial (and I'm not 100% sure it's not), but ... 

They just need better writers/directors who KNOW how to bring out the romance.  I look at these comic writers the same way I look at the ones who wrote that Anakin-Padme crap - as just horrible at writing romance - like I said - bring David Nutter back.

21 minutes ago, doram said:

I can never understand this with US TV. I remember watching the episode where Henry is murdered with my kids and having to switch it off because watching them watch someone's dad be brutally murdered in front of them. 

Agreed.  It doesn't actually makes sense except we live in the most prudish society ever and "teh secks" is apparently worse than murder.

[ruby24]

13 minutes ago, phoenics said:

I was talking about episode 10.  Iris was in a bra underneath the covers and Barry was shirtless.

No, I was referring to that scene as well. They weren't snuggled together sleeping, and neither was implied to be naked. Iris was in a slip and Barry had sweatpants (and socks!) on. I guess for this show him being shirtless at all is supposed to imply sex has taken place, but most people don't sleep covered from head to foot. I'm saying that scene wasn't enough either. They weren't in an immediate post-coital position.

That other scene in 22, Iris was actually sleeping in a ROBE for some reason.

[phoenics]

There's no question the show sucks at romance or steamy scenes.  The scene wasn't written to be post-coital (they were about to get it on when they were interrupted) - because Barry had a nightmare and then had to speed off.  I guess they could have not shown us what he was wearing, but part of the point of the scene was to show Barry distraught over Iris dying in the future.  The whole, sit on the side of the bed with head in hands was supposed to be that.  So in order to show that, they had to have Barry dressed.

I'm not disagreeing that we aren't getting what we want - I'm simply saying the show isn't making it a priority - Barry's manpain and angst and all of that IS the main priority - even that scene making out with Linda ended up being a ruse to show Barry vibrating as some kind of comedic gag.  

Plus, I do think the writers on this show aren't that good at real romantic stuff so they are overly challenged with this show in particular because of the rating - most of the writers appear to be men who are comic book writers like the ones in Star Wars the Clone Wars who sucked at this.  Basic chemistry stalwarts like holding a beat on the characters faces and giving them moments to really focus in on each other are missing here - my guess is because either it's cut out or they don't ever put the beats in.

Even in the finale - the leaked spoiler video footage of the Westallen goodbye was BETTER than it actually turned out to be onscreen.  It wasn't CP or GG there - they brought it in that video scene - it was how the scene was shot.  The way CP threw her arms around GG's face when they kiss, so much so that it almost knocked him off balance and then he came back with equal force... you can almost see that in the scene the way it was presented in the episode, but it's so close up you can't really... that's a problem with the direction and how they shot the scene.  

This is what I mean when I say they need David Nutter back - he understood the need to isolate your romance so that you fulfill that pact with the audience.  Nutter also helped with Smallville, btw.  I really, really wish he'd come back to The Flash.  Just to help with this and leave a freakin guide.

[ruby24]

They can very easily write a scene next season after Barry gets out of the speedforce, where they finally have an immediate post-coital (topless with sheets pulled up) bed scene, with cuddles and pillow talk about Barry missing "earthly pleasures" or something. It's so easy, it writes itself.

[Trini]

They could easily do a lot of things. They... just don't. ::SIGH::

[tofutan]

Quote

Also - when fans on twitter mentioned the exact same thing - that Arrow airs at 8 - the writers claimed that Flash skews much younger than Arrow in demographics.  I'm inclined to believe that - since Arrow is actually rated TV-14 and The Flash is rated TV-PG.  Supergirl is rated TV-PG, with some episodes rated as TV-14.  

Where can this be looked up? Is there a website for this? 

Can somebody link me this behind the scenes version of the reunion that apparently was more passionate? I haven't seen it, but everybody talking about it got me interested. 

[johntfs]

19 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Oh so, showing Henry getting stabbed right through the back, wouldn't traumatized the kids? Or how about the never ending loop of showing Iris being murdered? Through the back with the blade protruding from her chest. Kreisberg is SUCH an asshole. And since he is the one in charge, I'm going to continue to blame him. Yes, I am that petty.?

It's one of the more perverse aspects of American culture that acts which end life are considered to be less traumatizing/corrupting than acts which begin it (showing a girl getting stabbed is okay, showing her boobies is Bad).

Think about the Janet Jackson wardrobe malfunction.  Four hours plus of guys smashing into each other and causing a slow accretion of irreversible brain damage is fine.  One brown boob flashes onscreen for a microsecond?  "Ahhhh!!! Noooo!!! Not a titty!!!!  Think of the children!!!!"

[phoenics]

On 5/31/2017 at 1:58 PM, tofutan said:

Where can this be looked up? Is there a website for this? 

Can somebody link me this behind the scenes version of the reunion that apparently was more passionate? I haven't seen it, but everybody talking about it got me interested. 

I found the parental rating info on imdb.

[Karlophe]

On 5/31/2017 at 10:58 AM, tofutan said:

Can somebody link me this behind the scenes version of the reunion that apparently was more passionate? I haven't seen it, but everybody talking about it got me interested. 

I don't know if anyone's linked you yet, but just in case...

Spoiler

 

Their scene starts at 3:53, kiss at 4:24.

(Not sure if this should be in media, tagged to be safe.)

Edited June 4, 2017 by Karlophe

[Katsullivan]

So I've been rewatching my old fave misfits and it's clear to me what is 'off' about the way Westallen is portrayed on screen - they don't navigate around each other like a couple. There was an otp on misfits that where one half has X-men Rogue-esque powers so can't make physical skin-to-skin contact with anybody. But despite this, there are plenty of non-verbal cues that these people are a couple. They walk together, they stand close, they hook elbows through clothes. They 'gaze'. The camera gives them room to gaze. 

This is a couple that literally cannot make physical body contact. Yet the show manages to give them more tension and energy and visual cues that they are a couple than what we get from Westallen. Don't tell me that this is not deliberate.

[ruby24]

47 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

So I've been rewatching my old fave misfits and it's clear to me what is 'off' about the way Westallen is portrayed on screen - they don't navigate around each other like a couple.

I get what you mean by that and I do think that kind of comfortable, casual physicality around each other is something that can very easily be demonstrated by the actors, no direction needed. It's an instinct that comes from playing a couple, usually. That's part of why I wonder if there's just a very formal, non closeness with these two that prevents them from doing that instinctually. Are they too stiff around each other?

[johntfs]

2 hours ago, doram said:

There's something inherently wrong with the way Westallen is portrayed on the screen & it's not a question of tongue-kisses & top-less makeout scenes.

It feels like an 8 year old kid from the 1950s was directed to write their relationship cues.

On a slightly different topic, I have nothing at all to back this up.  I don't follow social media, nothing.  But Candice Patton seems like she would be a fairly tactile person.  Like, if you're around her in any kind of informal setting, you're going to get back pats, shoulder touches, one-armed hugs, all of that.  I have no idea if this is true and I suspect that I'm completely full of shit on that idea.

[phoenics]

On 6/8/2017 at 10:26 AM, Katsullivan said:

So I've been rewatching my old fave misfits and it's clear to me what is 'off' about the way Westallen is portrayed on screen - they don't navigate around each other like a couple. There was an otp on misfits that where one half has X-men Rogue-esque powers so can't make physical skin-to-skin contact with anybody. But despite this, there are plenty of non-verbal cues that these people are a couple. They walk together, they stand close, they hook elbows through clothes. They 'gaze'. The camera gives them room to gaze. 

This is a couple that literally cannot make physical body contact. Yet the show manages to give them more tension and energy and visual cues that they are a couple than what we get from Westallen. Don't tell me that this is not deliberate.

But this is untrue.  There are several moments between Westallen that do show these kinds of moments.  From the two of them sitting with the same posture and response to another character and mirroring each other, to Iris squeezing Barry's shoulder, to Barry's hand on Iris' ass in the Christmas episode, to Barry protecting Iris in moments he thinks there is danger, to other small touches.  I mean - the tumblr westallen tag has a million examples honestly.

Is it on the level of Max/Liz S1 from Roswell?  No - but again - that was DAVID NUTTER.  Direction has a lot to do with many of these things - some actors know to add more in and others don't.

I feel like we're now picking this pairing apart in an unfair way - and ignoring evidence that points to the contrary - to make a point I don't even understand anymore - especially when we aren't doing the same to the other Flash couplings.

[phoenics]

On 6/8/2017 at 11:17 AM, ruby24 said:

I get what you mean by that and I do think that kind of comfortable, casual physicality around each other is something that can very easily be demonstrated by the actors, no direction needed. It's an instinct that comes from playing a couple, usually. That's part of why I wonder if there's just a very formal, non closeness with these two that prevents them from doing that instinctually. Are they too stiff around each other?

I actually think direction has a lot to do with even these things that fans think is "instinct".  GG/CP have been very natural with one another - especially in S1.  I remember a story about Roswell's Max/Liz pairing where it was very much direction the very little things fans focused on - even how MUCH the actors opened their mouths for kisses (they were directed to open their mouths much more).  I think we as fans would be surprised on many of these shows just how much direction happens that way.

I think in cases where the direction is sparse - in very rare instances you have some actors who "get it" and who can add more stuff - but sometimes they don't get it.  Especially if the show doesn't even push that very much.

Hell  - if any of ya'll are friends with CP, maybe mention it to her?  Otherwise this just starts to feel like a dogpile onto CP/GG which feels unfair.  It's also inviting some speculation about whether they like each other?  Are we picking this apart too much?  It feels like it to me.

23 hours ago, johntfs said:

It feels like an 8 year old kid from the 1950s was directed to write their relationship cues.

On a slightly different topic, I have nothing at all to back this up.  I don't follow social media, nothing.  But Candice Patton seems like she would be a fairly tactile person.  Like, if you're around her in any kind of informal setting, you're going to get back pats, shoulder touches, one-armed hugs, all of that.  I have no idea if this is true and I suspect that I'm completely full of shit on that idea.

Well she did a lot more of that in S1.

[Katsullivan]

On 6/9/2017 at 9:26 PM, phoenics said:

But this is untrue.  There are several moments between Westallen that do show these kinds of moments.  From the two of them sitting with the same posture and response to another character and mirroring each other, to Iris squeezing Barry's shoulder, to Barry's hand on Iris' ass in the Christmas episode, to Barry protecting Iris in moments he thinks there is danger, to other small touches.  I mean - the tumblr westallen tag has a million examples honestly.

Is it on the level of Max/Liz S1 from Roswell?  No - but again - that was DAVID NUTTER.  Direction has a lot to do with many of these things - some actors know to add more in and others don't.

In my opinion & observation, Westallen were best at navigating around each other in season 1. It was more natural, it was more co-ordinated and seamless. Since then, other than a few stand-out episodes like "Runaway Dragon", their interactions have been "off", as I mentioned. Even the moments you've mentioned, they seem more ... I really am not being articulate right now, but once again I'll point to my Rogue/Alisha example. Characters don't even need to 'touch' to indicate intimacy. One person touching someone's shoulder or standing protectively near another person doesn't necessarily indicate intimacy, and this is what I got out of Westallen after season 1. Which is remarkable because in season 1, they weren't in an intimate relationship, yet they still managed to exude the potential for intimacy far more than they've done since they've got together. 

There are stand-out moments, like Barry being completely indifferent to Iris after he returned from the future in "Once and Future Flash", but there are also smaller, "silenter" signs. 

And I blame direction on this, not the actors, for the record. I think the actors can definitely bring in the intimacy, the heat, the indications that they are two characters who have deep levels of emotional, mental and sexual connection to one another. I saw that in season 1 so I know it's there - but the direction and the writing seems determined to down-play that and ... it might be possible that GG and CP have given up. 

[Trini]

Thought this was cute: Barry, Cisco, and Joe with their tiny girlfriends

----

With the EPs emphasis on Season 4 being "lighter", I hope we can have multiple happy, stable couples on the show this year!

[ruby24]

I hope so too! Since I'm nearing absolute certainty that Barry and Iris's wedding will probably be in the crossover. I'm now looking ahead to wondering how the show handles them as a married couple, for presumably the rest of the series.

It will be interesting, since even though I love the idea, I can't think of too many long-running shows that have actually done that. Still, I think they have plenty of material involving bringing in their kids from the future (they could have the Tornado Twins, and Bart, who I think will be their son in this universe). 

[Trini]

On 8/4/2017 at 8:18 PM, ruby24 said:

... I'm now looking ahead to wondering how the show handles them as a married couple, for presumably the rest of the series.

It will be interesting, since even though I love the idea, I can't think of too many long-running shows that have actually done that....

Off the top of my head, I can only think of 3: Bones had at least two of its couples get married and stay married; Chuck had its main couple marry at the end of its 4th season (out of 5); and of course Lois & Clark (but with complications). I'm sure there's more, but it doesn't seem to be common, especially if the show itself doesn't revolve around the relationship, or relationships in general.

-------

 

Posting this here because it's specifically about the Barry/Iris relationship: ‘The Flash’ and Westallen’s Many Virtues

Quote

A line may stick in our minds, a narrative may capture our imagination, but it is the moments shared by our ship that steal our hearts. These moments show us what we can be and allow us to imagine the remarkable things love makes us capable of doing. At its best, love brings out our greatest virtues, and it is in the moments when both sides of a ship become their best selves that love stories become truly epic. Below are a few of the best virtues Westallen embodies and some of our favorite moments – moments that have made it one of the greatest love stories on television today.

[DearEvette]

On 8/4/2017 at 8:18 PM, ruby24 said:

It will be interesting, since even though I love the idea, I can't think of too many long-running shows that have actually done that. Still, I think they have plenty of material involving bringing in their kids from the future (they could have the Tornado Twins, and Bart, who I think will be their son in this universe). 

If the show were smart, they wouldn't change anything too much right off the bat.  Barry and Iris are already in love and living together.  There is just enough of their romance to satisfy for character development, but not so much to overwhelm the show.  It is still a superhero show, not a romance.  Marrying them off just makes it official.  If anything were to change it should be their dynamic with Joe.  If they were smart, the show would make it clear in subtle ways that their first thoughts when it comes to family is each other first.  Whereas in the past, they seemed to revolve around Joe and then each other.

[tofutan]

Okay it's a comedy show but Penny and Leonard got married on Big Bang theory beginning of season 9 I think and they are on season 12 now. And on Friends Chandler and Monica of course got married somewhere in the middle. Brooklyn 99 also seemed to do a decent job of putting their main couple into a relationship and continuing as before (even though they didn't get married). 

[statsgirl]

On 5/17/2017 at 11:44 AM, Katsullivan said:

Maybe gendered roles play into this, but the main reason why Iris couldn't tell Barry about her feelings was that she herself had never admitted them to herself in the first place. While Barry had a full-on crush on Iris West long before he moved into her house, Iris's own feelings for him developed after that, specifically on a night that was already filled with a lot of trauma, and generated emotions of sympathy, pain, protectiveness etc towards him. For this and any number of reasons, she was one step behind Barry emotionally. 

It was Barry's Christmas confession and everything else that followed that made her 'wake up' to how she felt about him. And by then, she was in a committed, loving relationship with another man. What is important is that after mourning Eddie, and Iris 'opened her heart' again to love, she realized that she still had feelings for Barry and she acted on them by telling him about them, even without the reassurance of whether he still felt the same way about her.

If she "opened her heart again to love", that implies that she loved Eddie.  In fact she loved Eddie so much that even after Barry told her that he had feelings for her, even after Iris saw the paper from the future that told her that she was going to marry Barry, she still opted to get engaged to Eddie instead.

The only way to make Iris and Barry be twue love forever is if 1) Joe knows Iris better than she knows herself and 2) Iris for some never-shown reason loved Barry but couldn't admit it to herself.  That's infantilizing Iris so that the men in her life can know her better than she knows herself. It's not the Iris I saw on my screen.

My problem with the WestAllen ship is not that Iris was "one step behind Barry emotionally" but that for three seasons Iris was so far ahead of Barry emotionally, she couldn't see him in her dust.  Barry had a crush on Iris that he didn't tell her and then did when she had committed to Eddie (super immature) while Iris had an adult relationship with Eddie.  The fact that Iris didn't dump Eddie as soon as she knew that Barry had feelings for her tells me that her feelings for Eddie were stronger.  If she cared more for Barry, she would have told Eddie she had decided not to move in with him after all.

On 5/16/2017 at 9:47 PM, doram said:

@statsgirl Yeah, we are definitely watching different shows. The only thing I recognise in your post are the names of the characters of the show. In my experience, discussions about race and fandom that take this direction end up being utterly pointless so I'm bowing out early.

I don't understand how race keeps coming into the conversation.  I shipped Iris with Eddie rather than with Barry because Eddie was a grownup and thought about Iris' feelings, not just his own.  He was also mature enough to be willing to sacrifice himself to the greater good rather than Barry who was always trying to re-write history to make himself feel better. 

Sorry for the late reply -- I haven't checked this thread in a while.

Edited October 9, 2017 by statsgirl

[Trini]

26 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

If she "opened her heart again to love", that implies that she loved Eddie.  In fact she loved Eddie so much that even after Barry told her that he had feelings for her, even after Iris saw the paper from the future that told her that she was going to marry Barry, she still opted to get engaged to Eddie instead.

The only way to make Iris and Barry be twue love forever is if 1) Joe knows Iris better than she knows herself and 2) Iris for some never-shown reason loved Barry but couldn't admit it to herself.  That's infantilizing Iris so that the men in her life can know her better than she knows herself. It's not the Iris I saw on my screen.

I don't think that Iris loving Eddie and Iris loving Barry are mutually exclusive. Eddie as a temp love interest doesn't discount Barry/Iris' love. It's a pretty standard love triangle trope.

Edited October 9, 2017 by Trini

[tofutan]

Quote

The only way to make Iris and Barry be twue love forever is if 1) Joe knows Iris better than she knows herself and 2) Iris for some never-shown reason loved Barry but couldn't admit it to herself.  That's infantilizing Iris so that the men in her life can know her better

That wouldn't exactly be out of character of the show. I think the way the show sees Barry and Joe we are supposed to respect Joe's judgement of the situation. 

I understand why that might not convince some people that a ship is worth shipping (after all it is tell, don't show), but that doesn't change that it it likely that as far as the show was concerned, yes, Iris was supposed to have had buried feelings for Barry even though she might have claimed otherwise. 

And just because her commitment to Eddie was strong doesn't meant that there was nothing there for Barry. 

Hawkman/Hawkgirl/Ray on Legends also comes to mind. Kendra struggled with destiny, but in the end she did go for Carter after all.

[johntfs]

12 hours ago, Trini said:

I don't think that Iris loving Eddie and Iris loving Barry are mutually exclusive. Eddie as a temp love interest doesn't discount Barry/Iris' love. It's a pretty standard love triangle trope.

Figure the only reason Eddie was a "temporary" love interest was that he killed himself to save Iris and everyone else.  The idea that Iris has grieved and ultimately came to return Barry's feelings still works fine.

[tofutan]

I'm happy to report that I had no kiss complaints whatsoever in the premiere. 

[ruby24]

Still waiting on that sex scene. Or post-coital naked cuddling. Come on, people.

[CabotCove]

Quote

Figure the only reason Eddie was a "temporary" love interest was that he killed himself to save Iris and everyone else.   

or rather he was killed off because he was only supposed to be a temporary love interest. 

Quote

 

I don't understand how race keeps coming into the conversation. 

 

Perhaps because one of the two characters is African American and WA is an interracial relationship, and how we still live in a prejudiced world.

Edited October 11, 2017 by HeroLeague

[Trini]

MY HEART --

Bridal carry!

And this loveliness:

 

She brought him back, and he saved her -- *Power Couple*

[Trini]

In non-WestAllen news:
So with Cecile moving into the West home, that's another location for her, besides CCPD. I don't know how much we'll actually be seeing of her (she's not a regular), but it's a positive sign that we will be seeing her around a little more.

[SevenStars]

5 hours ago, Trini said:

In non-WestAllen news:
So with Cecile moving into the West home, that's another location for her, besides CCPD. I don't know how much we'll actually be seeing of her (she's not a regular), but it's a positive sign that we will be seeing her around a little more.

I like Cecile and I hope we do get to see more of her, in relation to not only Joe but Iris, Barry and Wally.

[KirkB]

I like Cecile too, and I'm happy for Joe, but one question bugs me. Because I'm not sure if it was brought up last season and I missed it. Does Cecile know about Barry and Wally? Their powers, I mean?

[GHScorpiosRule]

12 minutes ago, KirkB said:

I like Cecile too, and I'm happy for Joe, but one question bugs me. Because I'm not sure if it was brought up last season and I missed it. Does Cecile know about Barry and Wally? Their powers, I mean?

Yes. Barry told Joe to tell Cecile everything, and he did. It was just off-screen. Well, he started to tell her and the screen either faded to commercial or cut away to something else. But yeah, she knows.

[johntfs]

7 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Yes. Barry told Joe to tell Cecile everything, and he did. It was just off-screen. Well, he started to tell her and the screen either faded to commercial or cut away to something else. But yeah, she knows.

I remember it being onscreen last season during the episode where Barry got amnesia.

[KirkB]

Thanks. I got so bored with Savitar I think I blanked on some details.

[Trini]

4 hours ago, johntfs said:

I remember it being onscreen last season during the episode where Barry got amnesia.

Close; in the episode before that - 3.20