Relationships: Speed Dating

[tofutan]

Quote

This show is such a boys club.  The relationships between Barry and his father figures/mentor/best friends always seem to be directed on screen with more weight and omf.  

There's a lot of truth to that. I think you can even add some of villain stories to this. 

I don't really get the feeling that KF is in love with Savitar and that that is her main motivations either. I would consider that a pretty big betrayal of her character if they actually wrote it like that, for her to be that sappy. 

[johntfs]

59 minutes ago, tofutan said:

There's a lot of truth to that. I think you can even add some of villain stories to this. 

I don't really get the feeling that KF is in love with Savitar and that that is her main motivations either. I would consider that a pretty big betrayal of her character if they actually wrote it like that, for her to be that sappy. 

I think it's more that Killer Frost saw Barry as Savitar, realized that this is Barry from the future and recognized all the implications of that in terms "OMG I am going to have so much fun fucking with those guys now."  Of course, she hasn't realized the rest of those implications yet, either, ie, she'll be stuck in a cell for the rest of life because of this.

[Trini]

From the Lightning Rods thread:

19 hours ago, doram said:

I'm 105% convinced that if Spallen had been a degree better than the colossal flop that it was, that relationship would have stayed canon, and they'd have the comics to back it up. ...

2 hours ago, johntfs said:

Honestly I think the only reason they had Patty on the show was to provide conclusive proof to the viewers that Barry Allen was not, in fact, a virgin.  If the viewers had liked her/the situation better, the show might have kept Patty around a little longer, likely so that Zoom could murder her for extra drama. ...

1 hour ago, ruby24 said:

I agree, I always thought that was Patty's purpose as well. I would have bet money Barry was a virgin before her, to be honest. Sure seemed like it to me, the way they acted like he'd never dated or had a real girlfriend before in the first season. I think they didn't want people to think Iris was his first everything (which isn't a big deal in itself, I think that would have been sweet). ...

 

I always saw Patty as temporary. When I found out she was a love interest in the comics, I expected her to show up at some point. Mainly because it's TV, and I seen this already where they draw out putting the "end game" couple together by putting obstacles in their path. Also I don't think it had anything to do with Barry's virginity (or lack thereof) specifically, but more like they wanted to have Barry be on "equal footing"* with Iris in terms of having previous serious relationships.

*(in quotes because I don't think it was necessary or successful)

--------------

As for Savitar/Killer Frost, they haven't shown anything romantic between them, and I don't think they will. If anything, it shows that they only way Barry and Caitlin would get together is if they're the insane, murderous versions of themselves.

[phoenics]

On 5/7/2017 at 5:05 AM, Trini said:

 

As for Savitar/Killer Frost, they haven't shown anything romantic between them, and I don't think they will. If anything, it shows that they only way Barry and Caitlin would get together is if they're the insane, murderous versions of themselves.

This and that they'd only come together as murderous, insane versions of themselves that lost the loves of their lives.  Literally the definition of "die [Iris & Ronnie] for my ship".

The writers are trolling SB fans with this, honestly, and they don't even realize it.

Edited May 8, 2017 by phoenics

[Trini]

Plus, they're still trying to push Julian/Caitlin as a couple; even using "love" to describe Julian's feelings for her. (I think that was in a recent Kreisberg interview.)

[Katsullivan]

18 hours ago, phoenics said:

This and that they'd only come together as murderous, insane versions of themselves that lost the loves of their lives.  Literally the definition of "die [Iris & Ronnie] for my ship".

The writers are trolling SB fans with this, honestly, and they don't even realize it.

Maybe the writers should do less SB trolling, and more WA writing? 

This logic always amazes me. If the writers were really indifferent to SB, and invested in WA --- they'd just write more WA, won't they? For example: that scene in "Into the speedforce" where Caitlin is holding a baby that is staged so that for a few moments before Ronnie appears, it looks like Barry's... why? Ronnie could have made his point without the Creepy Singing Mom and Baby. Just the sight of normal, non-Ice-powered Caitlin, in the background with Ronnie should have been enough.   

If anybody should have been carrying the baby of a dead man in Barry Allen's nightmare, it should have been Iris carrying Eddie's and Eddie accusing Barry of stealing that family from him. That would have been a far more effective mind-fuck than a scene that was constructed simply to make the Snowbarry gif-makers jobs easier. 

On 5/7/2017 at 5:05 AM, Trini said:

I always saw Patty as temporary. When I found out she was a love interest in the comics, I expected her to show up at some point. Mainly because it's TV, and I seen this already where they draw out putting the "end game" couple together by putting obstacles in their path. Also I don't think it had anything to do with Barry's virginity (or lack thereof) specifically, but more like they wanted to have Barry be on "equal footing"* with Iris in terms of having previous serious relationships.

I personally believe that Patty was also meant to be temporary, but the writers would have found a way to keep her on permanently if there was enough interest in her. I think it constantly surprises and irritates them how much support Candice has, and they might have genuine concern that if they damage Iris/Westallen too much, they will lose their show's unprecedented ratings.

Sleepy Hollow is a cautionary tale to anyone who cares to learn. 

[phoenics]

7 hours ago, doram said:

Couldn't have put it better myself. Most of what Snowbarry define as "chemistry" between Barry and Caitlin is contrived situations like this one.

Exactly.  The thought that the writers were creating SB bait with that Cait-baby-Ronnie scene is a complete and utter stretch to me.  It was very clear that the baby was Cait's and Ronnie's - there is no show canon that would ever make that look like it was Barry's at all - that's a stretch.  I don't think the writers even thought about it that way at all - just like they surely didn't think folks would flip out over peeing in a cup.

And as far as Westallen being written - most of this season has been that - there has been a TON of westallen - it's dominated the entire season, so they have written it.  And yet still - the writers' trope of "take that!" still happened with Savitar and KF.  Trolling SBs.  

As far as the writers being surprised about Candice's popularity and WA's popularity - eh.  I don't think that's it.  I think they are fine with that and happy with that - but I do think they are befuddled by the hatred CP and Iris gets and so they continually write her as more and more docile, sweet, supportive and agreeable to try to write around the racist wrath of many fans.  Honestly they should just write Iris well and WA well and leave it at that.

I was there for Sleepy Hollow too - and I don't see the same thing happening here at all.  For one, we actually got canon Westallen... we never got canon Ichabbie and the writers were clearly dicks on Twitter to fans.  Not the same here - save one writer who isn't with the show anymore from what I can tell.

But time will tell.  Ever since SH broke my heart, I reserve the right to walk away from shows that mess up.

[Trini]

So with HR/Tracy, officially everyone has a love interest. Although, I think Tracy can do better -- mutual love of coffee is not enough to sustain a relationship, girl!

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Loved all the Barry/Iris scenes in the latest episode! Even amnesiac Barry only has eyes for Iris!  Pretty sure that line about them falling in love "that night" was for the haters and incest arguers.

---------

You don't want to be the guy in love with Caitlin/Killer Frost, Julian. I wanted to see more of the friend love with Caitlin and Cisco.

[phoenics]

7 hours ago, doram said:

IMO, the way Iris was sidelined in 2A was even worse than the way Abbie was treated during her worst treatment on the show. There was an episode where Iris uttered one line in the entirety of the show. Hopefully, whatever was going on around that time is firmly in the past. 

No, I actually meant the opposite - I was agreeing that the writers/direction was creating SB bait with that scene. With the blocking when Barry stood beside Caitlin and the baby, the way he never finishes the question, "is that " (Ronnie's / my baby)? Call it "trolling" or "baiting". It was a scene that was written/blocked with SB giffers in mind. As @Katsullivan said so eloquently: a more effective mind-fuck would have been Barry coming across Iris carrying a baby for Eddie.

Now that I think about it, in Barry's Speedforce mind-trip, Candice plays Iris sitting mutely in the background as Eddie rails on Barry, while DP gets to interact with Ronnie and Barry, hold a baby, move and sing. Like, come on, writers.

 

 

Ah well, experience has thought me, for one, to never place too many hopes on writers and showrunners where diversity is concerned.  If we could get more episodes like the 3x21, I would be the first person to sing their praises. Until then, I don't know... We'll see. 

I'm trying to have hope I guess.  With all of the stuff going on in politics, I need some hope.  Probably stupid to pin my hopes on writers from a tv show though, lol.

[Bats27]

Did anyone else that one Iris moment kinda icky!?  She says to Barry that the moment she truly fell in love with him (developed sexual feelings?) was when he was crying over his dead mother as a small boy and she hugs him to make him feel better.

Also the "I'm your brother" joke between Barry and Wally, while funny, does bring up how the show has made Barry/Iris unnecessarily "awkward" for many people.

[Karlophe]

9 hours ago, Trini said:

So with HR/Tracy, officially everyone has a love interest. Although, I think Tracy can do better -- mutual love of coffee is not enough to sustain a relationship, girl!

Aaaw, I really liked Tracy and HR. They are two such odd ducks, meeting people who truly like and "get" them is probably a rarity. I'd imagine all those silly quirks would be the thing to hold people like that together. Or maybe I just fall fast. But I like it, coffee beans and all. She's his lobster. 

[johntfs]

On 5/10/2017 at 9:55 AM, Bats27 said:

Did anyone else that one Iris moment kinda icky!?  She says to Barry that the moment she truly fell in love with him (developed sexual feelings?) was when he was crying over his dead mother as a small boy and she hugs him to make him feel better.

Also the "I'm your brother" joke between Barry and Wally, while funny, does bring up how the show has made Barry/Iris unnecessarily "awkward" for many people.

I was one of the ones who started out thinking it was more than a little weird for Barry to be wanting to date his "sister from another mister" or what have you, but I buy it.  There's more than one kind of love.  You have platonic love between friends, familial love and romantic/sexual love.  Barry and Iris have (or have had) all three.  To me, Iris wasn't saying that little her wanted to date or have sex with little him, she was saying that she loved him, that whatever that meant she bound herself to him whatever the future might hold.

Also, not for nothing, but our President apparently wants to bang his own daughter, so the Barry/Iris sibling stuff is way less awkward in the wake of that.

[Trini]

On 5/10/2017 at 0:27 PM, Karlophe said:

Aaaw, I really liked Tracy and HR. They are two such odd ducks, meeting people who truly like and "get" them is probably a rarity. I'd imagine all those silly quirks would be the thing to hold people like that together. Or maybe I just fall fast. But I like it, coffee beans and all. She's his lobster. 

I do think they're cute together, but I'm just SO OVER HR.

[Grace19]

Iris just meant that she realized they both needed each other more than before on the night Barry's mom died. Remember that at the time, Iris has already lost her mom too. And Iris is the one realizing it now, not the 11 years old Iris, some people are reading way too much into it like 11 years old Iris was the one having sexual feelings for Barry.

"I didn't realize it then, but that was the night we fell in love, that was the night we realized we needed each other". 

In my opinion, there was nothing sexual about that. Barry loosing his mom like Iris already lost hers brought them closer together and deepened their friendship and love for each other.

Edited May 15, 2017 by Grace19

[Trini]

4 hours ago, Grace19 said:

Iris just meant that she realized they both needed each other more than before on the night Barry's mom died. Remember that at the time, Iris has already lost her mom too. And Iris is the one realizing it now, not the 11 years old Iris, some people are reading way too much into it like 11 years old Iris was the one having sexual feelings for Barry.

"I didn't realize it then, but that was the night we fell in love, that was the night we realized we needed each other". 

In my opinion, there was nothing sexual about that. Barry loosing his mom like Iris already lost hers brought them closer together and deepened their friendship and love for each other.

This is not even something that you should have to explain; as if 'friends to lovers' and 'childhood sweethearts', or 'childhood crushes' are new tropes that this show invented.

There'll always be another something to "icky" to find by people who don't like Barry and Iris as a couple.

[BkWurm1]

8 hours ago, Grace19 said:

Iris just meant that she realized they both needed each other more than before on the night Barry's mom died. Remember that at the time, Iris has already lost her mom too. And Iris is the one realizing it now, not the 11 years old Iris, some people are reading way too much into it like 11 years old Iris was the one having sexual feelings for Barry.

"I didn't realize it then, but that was the night we fell in love, that was the night we realized we needed each other". 

In my opinion, there was nothing sexual about that. Barry loosing his mom like Iris already lost hers brought them closer together and deepened their friendship and love for each other.

It would have been perfectly clear that there was nothing but two kids becoming much closer in that scene except grown up Iris had to make it into something it was not.  They in fact did NOT fall in love that night. That's the problem with the statement.  They became closer and their friendship and innocent love deepened but they did not fall in love.   That means something else.  Their connection didn't have to be more than it was to be special.  The show trying too hard just made it weird.  

Edited May 16, 2017 by BkWurm1

[statsgirl]

If Iris and Barry "fell in love" that night, someone mindwiped Iris  later because there was absolutely nothing of that kind of feeling in her towards Barry in season 1.  It's why I roll my eyes at the constant retcons.

[Trini]

2 hours ago, statsgirl said:

If Iris and Barry "fell in love" that night, someone mindwiped Iris  later because there was absolutely nothing of that kind of feeling in her towards Barry in season 1.  It's why I roll my eyes at the constant retcons.

What did they retcon? Season 1 did establish that she had feelings for him that she didn't/couldn't acknowledge. I don't think that anything in the last episode contradicted anything previous. I thought Iris' point of view on their relationship (rare!) tied in nicely with her words to Barry in 1.20.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I would imagine anyone who finds Barry and Iris being sweet on each other as kids, "icky," would also find kids in movies and commercials who were/are much younger, like six or seven, icky as well, right? That Lifesaver commercial from years ago comes to mind, where a six year old asks his neighbor? Classmate? to marry him and that they could live with his mom until  they're older. I thought that commercial was all kinds of adorable. If the answer is no, then it's as you stated, @Trini-it's just Barry and Iris that's a problem for them. They were tweens. It's show cannon that Barry has liked and then been in love with Iris for over half his life. Many a romance novel has plots that are very similar. I don't understand it. Especially since there's no biological tie between them and Joe never adopted Barry. The only thing is that Joe considers him and treats him like a son, and Barry considers Joe his second dad.

Edited May 17, 2017 by GHScorpiosRule

[BkWurm1]

35 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I would imagine anyone who finds Barry and Iris being sweet on each other as kids, "icky," would also find kids in movies and commercials who were/are much younger, like six or seven, icky as well, right? That Lifesaver commercial from years ago comes to mind, where a six year old asks his neighbor? Classmate? to marry him and that they could live with his mom unto they're older. I thought that commercial was all kinds of adorable. If the answer is no, then it's as you stated, @Trini-it's just Barry and Iris that's a problem for them. They were tweens. It's show cannon that Barry has liked and then bee in love with Iris for over half his life. Many a romance novel has plots that are very similar. I don't understand it. Especially since there's no biological tie between them and Joe never adopted Barry. The only thing is that Joe considers him and treats him like a son, and Barry considers Joe his second dad.

Kids that age can love other kids and even have an innocent version of romantic feelings but it's not the same as falling in love as an adult and until Iris pulled this memory out of thin air, it had been Barry only that had had feelings something like that for Iris all his life.  So I agree that it is a retcon.  And an awkward one.  

And again, why wasn't him being her best friend all her life until she grew up and realized she loved him special enough?  Why force something?

 They could have couched it in different terms and talked about a connection that destined them to fall in love  cemented right in that moment or something like that, but saying that a pair of 8 year-olds totes fell in love based on one needing comfort and the other giving it, isn't that actually hugely one sided and imbalanced anyway?  Is that why Iris is treated like she has no importance beyond being there for Barry?  Has the show actually explained why Iris isn't allowed a PoV?  Is it because she's grown up thinking that to be in love with Barry equals comforting HIM?  Being there for HIM?  Yes, I'm being a bit absurd but so is the show. 

Quote

Many a romance novel has plots that are very similar. I don't understand it.

I have read more than my share of romance novels and while a spark might start in childhood, no one really falls in real love until they reconnect as adults or at least after puberty has hit.  And more often than not, the relationship since childhood makes it HARDER for them to come to terms with having feelings for this person.  At least in my experience.  

I don't think Iris and Barry having some kind of crush on each other at that age is icky, but it's waaaaaay too heavy handed to claim they fell in love then.  Do we really think Barry was even thinking of anything in that moment but his dead mother and his falsely accused father?  I am a huge romantic, but I just don't buy the narrative.  Too many plot holes.  

What I will believe is that Iris has spent time looking back on their child hood and now that they are in love, has retconned her own memories to have greater meaning than they had in the moment.  And really, that's fine.  Not accurate, but fine.   

Edited May 16, 2017 by BkWurm1

[Trini]

So they're undone by semantics. It's always something. (Well, these are the same people who gave us "I swear on my parents' lives...")

[LolaRuns]

I don't think that the "childhood friends" trope is the same as the "grew up like siblings" trope. I'm pretty sure I read studies that a lot of people don't feel attracted to the people they grow up with regardless of whether there is a blood relation or not (from what I remember the study was on children who grew up together in a Kibutz). Of course it happens. But percentagewise, you are more likely not to feel attracted them (that's why it's also not so rare, at least in books to have it be childhood friends who were then seperated and then meet again and then fall in love). So I think it makes some sense if some people just can't connect to that (while of course to others it's actually part of the kink, though I think I have seen it more in versions where they initially think they are siblings and then find out that they aren't and can finally be together).

I don't think that with the way it was done in Westallen is enough to make it fair to call it gross even if people are less into it because of this background. 

The writers needed to come up with obstacles and things to make Westallen more unique and that's what they picked. There's certainly worse things you can pick (like: he was running off with my sister before being presumed dead for many years). The writers have made it clear that they think it's sweet and romantic (as opposed to something that is meant to blow up in their face later on) and it's their show, so I go with what they say. 

[Trini]

Came across a gifset of WestAllen first kisses (debatable, 2 of those I wouldn't count) and it reminded me that there have been a bunch of first kisses this season alone. They seem to like writing these moments even though the writing overall for the couples could be better. Anyway, pics!:

They decided to start all these couples, I just wonder how well they'll end by the season finale. Kinda dreading the inevitable finale tragedy and/or cliffhanger -- one (or more!) of these couples is NOT going to make it.

Edited May 17, 2017 by Trini

[statsgirl]

21 hours ago, Trini said:

What did they retcon? Season 1 did establish that she had feelings for him that she didn't/couldn't acknowledge. I don't think that anything in the last episode contradicted anything previous. I thought Iris' point of view on their relationship (rare!) tied in nicely with her words to Barry in 1.20.

I saw nothing from Iris beyond sibling affection until Barry told her that he had feelings for her as she was about to move in with Eddie and so messed with her mind.  And after that, even with the message from the future that she was supposed to marry Barry, she still chose Eddie in the end.

15 hours ago, doram said:

Semantics?  It's Canon that Iris has always had unacknowledged romantic feelings for Barry. It's the reason why Joe refused to give Eddie his blessings, why Eddie himself broke up with her, why Iris needed Barry to be in a coma for 9 months before she could have her first boyfriend. It's why she apparently had a streak of being weird about his girlfriends. It's why she was willing to leave Eddie for him in 1x15.

Nothing about her statement was a retcon - it was an affirmation of what the show has always portrayed. For anyone without an agenda, it made perfect sense what she meant.

From Wuthering Heights to Harry Potter, the concept of finding your soulmate before you hit puberty is universal. Yet when it applies to Westallen, it becomes an 'icky' retcon.

Let's face it - it's racism. There'll always be an investment in thinking the worst about Westallen regardless of how it's portrayed.

I came into the show knowing nothing at all about The Flash other than I liked GG's Barry when he appeared on Arrow.  I have no agenda other than what I've seen in the episodes of this TV show.

It may be comic book canon that Iris has always had unacknowledged feelings for Barry but I saw none of that on the show other than Iris feeling squicked out at Barry telling her he has feelings for as soon as she committed to another man.  That's rather immature.  Joe refused to give Eddie his blessing because he is one of the worst TV fathers when it comes to a girl-child, worse even the Sonny Corinthos on General Hospital. Joe only cares about his male children, Barry and Wally, and telling Eddie he didn't have his blessing was IMO not about wanting to save Iris for Barry, which is revolting medieval in itself, but about not wanting to let Iris grow up.

I got my first boyfriend when I was 26 after casually dating a number of guys. Maybe like me, Iris was waiting for a man instead of a boy.

Wuthering Heights one of the examples I use for teens to show them what a dysfunctional relationship looks like. 

[phoenics]

2 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

It may be comic book canon that Iris has always had unacknowledged feelings for Barry but I saw none of that on the show other than Iris feeling squicked out at Barry telling her he has feelings for as soon as she committed to another man. 

Season 1, Episode 15.  Iris confesses her feelings to Barry.  That's canon on the SHOW.

Also - Joe's actual words when he told Barry why he didn't give permission to Eddie to marry Iris was "She has feelings for YOU Barry. She might not realize them yet, but they are there."  That too, is canon on the show.

Also - Iris didn't look squicked out by Barry's confession - she just looked sad.  Later she told Joe that Barry had been too late - so I imagine the look she had was actually some form of regret that he didn't tell her sooner before she dated Eddie.  Which ties in specifically to what Joe said about Iris having feelings for Barry when he turned Eddie's proposal away.  That's not Joe not wanting Iris to grow up (it might be partly that) but clearly the show was painting Joe as knowing his daughter so well that he KNEW she loved Barry THAT WAY and while she might not be aware (we could argue that the idea is a bit sexist for Joe to know her mind but she doesn't but eh...), he knew and thus he was trying to save her from herself and from a situation where she married Eddie and then suddenly "woke up" to the reality that she was in love with Barry.

That's what aired in terms of dialogue and that's what I took away from what the show aired.

[Katsullivan]

15 hours ago, Trini said:

Came across a gifset of WestAllen first kisses (debatable, 2 of those I wouldn't count) and it reminded me that there have been a bunch of first kisses this season alone. They seem to like writing these moments even though the writing overall for the couples could be better. Anyway, pics!:

It's nice to see some black love on prime-time TV so go Joe/Cecily. Give that man a life outside his kids. But the only couple that really interest me are Wally/Jessie. The dynamics of two speedsters getting it on - (Recovery time, anyone?) - should be explored in greater detail. For science. 

The show needs to stop giving Caitlin LIs that DP is not interested in selling. 

 

12 hours ago, phoenics said:

Season 1, Episode 15.  Iris confesses her feelings to Barry.  That's canon on the SHOW.

Also - Joe's actual words when he told Barry why he didn't give permission to Eddie to marry Iris was "She has feelings for YOU Barry. She might not realize them yet, but they are there."  That too, is canon on the show.

Also - Iris didn't look squicked out by Barry's confession - she just looked sad.  Later she told Joe that Barry had been too late - so I imagine the look she had was actually some form of regret that he didn't tell her sooner before she dated Eddie.  Which ties in specifically to what Joe said about Iris having feelings for Barry when he turned Eddie's proposal away.  That's not Joe not wanting Iris to grow up (it might be partly that) but clearly the show was painting Joe as knowing his daughter so well that he KNEW she loved Barry THAT WAY and while she might not be aware (we could argue that the idea is a bit sexist for Joe to know her mind but she doesn't but eh...), he knew and thus he was trying to save her from herself and from a situation where she married Eddie and then suddenly "woke up" to the reality that she was in love with Barry.

That's what aired in terms of dialogue and that's what I took away from what the show aired.

Throw in this part of Iris's confrontation with Joe in 1x21:

Quote

 

Iris: Dad, it's not just about Barry being The Flash. You knew how he felt about me for God knows how long, and you didn't tell me that either.

Joe: That wasn't for me to tell, Iris.

Iris: Well, you know what, if any of you had been honest with me, maybe Eddie would still be here. He wouldn't have gotten involved in all of this if I hadn't been dating him.

Joe: Are you saying if you had known how Barry felt- 

Iris: What I am saying is that what happened to Eddie is your fault.

 

 

Jeez, I wonder why Iris was so upset about not knowing how Barry felt about her. I wonder why she associated knowing that Barry loved her with her not starting a relationship with Eddie. I wonder, as @doram pointed out, why Barry had to be in a coma for 9 months before his best friend, a 25-year-old woman, could have her first real boyfriend. I wonder what the writers meant when they had Iris tell Eddie that she never needed a boyfriend before (before what, exactly?) because her life was so full with her father, and Barry and work. 

I will be the first person to admit that the show short-changes Iris's PoV. That we don't get many one-on-one conversations between Iris and a confidant that lets us into her head, the same way - just as a random example - we got so many perspectives into Caitlin's thoughts on her dead fiance, then her not-dead fiance, then her reunited fiance, etc. 

But from what little we have been given... Anyone who watched season 1 and really left with the impression that Iris never had anything other than sibling/platonic feelings for Barry all her life - was watching with an agenda.

Funny enough, I was just coming from a discussion about how the "they're like siblings!" description has been popping up more and more these days. I've seen it used to describe Richonne from Walking Dead, Waurel from HTGAWM, Finn & Rey from Star Wars movie (where Rey is supposedly more compatible with someone who is probably her first cousin - yet somehow that doesn't stop the shippers from shipping lololol), and it's been leveled against Westallen from the start, of course. Now could there be a pattern in this?

Correlation is not causation, I know, but I guess "But they're like siblings!" is the new "But they're interracial!"

[GHScorpiosRule]

I don't know. Maybe it's just me and the fact that despite being an introvert in real life, when it came to the two guys I had feelings for in high school and then college, I was able to tell them how I felt. And maybe that's influencing my opinion-but WHY couldn't Iris tell Barry she had feelings for him before Eddie? Why is the onus on Barry or even Joe to 'clue her in' or outright tell her? 

And I wanted to go back to last week's episode-the casting director really screwed up when he cast both the kid Iris and kid Barry. They were supposed to be 11 years old-not six. But it's all moot now.

[Katsullivan]

19 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

WHY couldn't Iris tell Barry she had feelings for him before Eddie? Why is the onus on Barry or even Joe to 'clue her in' or outright tell her? 

Whether Iris had feelings for Barry or not, Barry was lying by omission by hiding his feelings for his best friend and pretending he was supportive of her relationship with Eddie. 

Joe wasn't obligated to tell Iris anything - he couldn't violate Barry's trust or privacy that way. Iris's words at him were out of anger and frustration of the whole situation, including the part where Joe was obligated not to lie/gaslight her about Barry being the Flash and he did.

Maybe gendered roles play into this, but the main reason why Iris couldn't tell Barry about her feelings was that she herself had never admitted them to herself in the first place. While Barry had a full-on crush on Iris West long before he moved into her house, Iris's own feelings for him developed after that, specifically on a night that was already filled with a lot of trauma, and generated emotions of sympathy, pain, protectiveness etc towards him. For this and any number of reasons, she was one step behind Barry emotionally. 

It was Barry's Christmas confession and everything else that followed that made her 'wake up' to how she felt about him. And by then, she was in a committed, loving relationship with another man. What is important is that after mourning Eddie, and Iris 'opened her heart' again to love, she realized that she still had feelings for Barry and she acted on them by telling him about them, even without the reassurance of whether he still felt the same way about her. 

Edited May 17, 2017 by Katsullivan

[GHScorpiosRule]

So not coming forth and telling someone you're in love with them is being dishonest and lying to him or her? I don't agree. It doesn't matter if they're your best friend-some, a lot don't do it because of the fear it will change the relationship or rejection or both. Granted, Barry's timing to tell Iris sucked. But I didn't see his support for Iris and Eddie's relationship as him pretending. But we all see what we want to see, I guess.

I just don't see Barry as this bad guy, jerk, asshole, that others do. And maybe that's just my bias.

[Katsullivan]

2 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

So not coming forth and telling someone you're in love with them is being dishonest and lying to him or her? I don't agree. It doesn't matter if they're your best friend-some, a lot don't do it because of the fear it will change the relationship or rejection or both. Granted, Barry's timing to tell Iris sucked. But I didn't see his support for Iris and Eddie's relationship as him pretending. But we all see what we want to see, I guess.

I just don't see Barry as this bad guy, jerk, asshole, that others do. And maybe that's just my bias.

OK, just to get this out of the way - I don't think Barry is a jerk or asshole or a bad guy. I think he's flawed and imperfect, and he ought to be. That's what makes him an interesting character. I enjoy his character for these reasons. If you're looking at his actions through the lenses that everything he does is pure and beyond reproach, then that's as much a bias as what you're assuming I'm doing.

It is a sad by-product of the toxicity in fandom that flaws in characters tend to be exaggerated and used as reasons to hate these characters. (Iris, anyone?) But flaws are not intrinsically bad and pointing out that a character is flawed does not mean that I hate that character.

 

Quote

It doesn't matter if they're your best friend-some, a lot don't do it because of the fear it will change the relationship or rejection or both.

 

Barry himself admits that he was lying to Iris. When he confessed his feelings to her on Christmas Day, these are his exact words: "I can't lie to you anymore."  It does matter that she was his best friend. It'd be totally different if she was just a casual friend or someone who wasn't particularly close to him but Barry was the closest person to Iris beside her father. When Iris comes to Barry for advice on her love life and relationships, she is coming to him because she assumes he is an objective listener - and that is a lie. 

Barry had good reasons for not telling her but that didn't make it any less a lie of omission.
 

But come on - Barry did not support Iris and Eddie. He was predisposed to dislike Eddie before he even got to know him simply because Iris was dating him. He showed up at Jitters as the Flash and flirted the hell with Iris knowing that it was damaging her relationship with Eddie, and still going ahead to do so. Even when Caitlin called him out for doing so - "don't be the one responsible for their breakup" - Barry didn't care. The fact that Iris's relationship with Eddie was going forward was one of the reasons why he decided to drop that bomb on Iris. 

Eddie had been kidnapped by Eobard and Barry was throwing Iris's suppressed feelings for him (Barry) at her face, and later on asking her if she would consider changing her mind after Eddie was found. As someone who ships Westallen, I actually like that Barry was so ruthless about his regard for Eddie. As the saying goes, all is fair in Love and War so let's not pretend that he played the role of Supportive Best Friend to her where Eddie was concerned. 


 

Edited May 17, 2017 by Katsullivan

[GHScorpiosRule]

Well Eddie didn't have to listen to Barry. He could have told him to sod off and tell Iris anyway. He could have avoided the tension and Iris moving out.

It's all beyond stupid because Kreisberg, in his maggoty brain, suddenly decided that Barry should compete with Oliver in the angst, drama, gloom and doom, instead of sticking to Barry being the lighter, sweeter, funnier hero that we saw in his backdoor pilot and the first half of the first season.

And now I'm going to shut up, since I'm just repeating myself.

[tennisgurl]

My biggest problem with WestAllen? They keep putting up these angsty walls in front of them and their love! I adore WestAllen when they're just hanging out being cute, but they just depress me when they keep screwing them up to add "drama" to the show. Damn it writers, just let them have a dinner party and take walks and get a dog! Is there not enough drama in them trying to save their city from evil every other day?

As for the race issues? I don't think everyone who doesn't like WestAllen has a racial issue with it, some people really are weirded out by the fact that Barry and Iris were basically raised in the same house and they both consider Joe their dad and Wally their brother, people who just aren't interested in romance on the show, and other people are racist assholes about it. To me, its easy to tell who is who. Personally, I originally thought the sort of siblings vibe was a little weird, but it doesn't bother me know. They're basically a classic Childhood Romance, and I'm alright with it. Yeah its a bit weird when Joe calls them both his kids, but its not like they were raised as brother and sister for their whole lives, and they don't have any blood ties. They have so much chemistry, it works.

[Trini]

52 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

My biggest problem with WestAllen? They keep putting up these angsty walls in front of them and their love! I adore WestAllen when they're just hanging out being cute, but they just depress me when they keep screwing them up to add "drama" to the show. Damn it writers, just let them have a dinner party and take walks and get a dog! Is there not enough drama in them trying to save their city from evil every other day?

After this whole Savitar mess, I need them to have a spectacular honeymoon* -- let them go to Atlantis; it can be Season 4's Earth-2 episode.

*(I'm just going to assume that the wedding doesn't go off smoothly, because... TV writers)

[tennisgurl]

7 minutes ago, Trini said:

After this whole Savitar mess, I need them to have a spectacular honeymoon

As long as Snart isn't stuck at the singles table :)

[Grace19]

12 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

As for the race issues? I don't think everyone who doesn't like WestAllen has a racial issue with it, some people really are weirded out by the fact that Barry and Iris were basically raised in the same house and they both consider Joe their dad and Wally their brother, people who just aren't interested in romance on the show, and other people are racist assholes about it. To me, its easy to tell who is who. Personally, I originally thought the sort of siblings vibe was a little weird, but it doesn't bother me know. They're basically a classic Childhood Romance, and I'm alright with it. Yeah its a bit weird when Joe calls them both his kids, but its not like they were raised as brother and sister for their whole lives, and they don't have any blood ties. They have so much chemistry, it works.

I agree with all of this except that it never bothered me that they grow up together.

The thing I love about this pair is that apart from racist trolls and some people who want iris gone so that their ship can happen (snowbarry and patty/Barry), most people who don't ship westallen still love iris and want the show to do better for her. This is has nothing to do with the writers, in fact sometimes I feel like they hate the character. This is all Candice, with everything stacked against her, she still made iris charming and easy to love, it also helps that she is a good actress that shines with any little opportunity she's given.

I just hope the writing for her will improve. And please writers just let westallen be happy next season, they've paid their dues this season.

[scarynikki12]

Everyone, take a step back.  No one is required to agree on the show or the relationships within.  Disagreement and debate are welcome but fighting stalls discussion.  Also, do not attack your fellow posters and do not engage when this happens.  Report the post to the Mods and we will handle it.  Posts have been hidden as a result of fighting.  Accept that posters have different points of view and move on.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Just to clarify, incest involves when the two people involved are biologically related. So no, Clueless didn't involve actual incest.

[BkWurm1]

Quote

It's just unfortunate that, like you, I suspect that some of the writers hate her character and would rather write for Caitlin/Snowbarry than for Iris/Westallen.

Snowbarry hasn't IMO had a bone tossed its way since that time a meta put on Barry's face and kissed Caitlin. (Was that late Season one?)  Are there specific other writing instances you feel the writers have slipped in Snowbarry stuff that I've overlooked or are you addressing more of a feeling that the writers would like to be writing that relationship if only given free reign?   

5 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Just to clarify, incest involves when the two people involved are biologically related. So no, Clueless didn't involve actual incest.

My bigger issue with that relationship was the age.   Statutory rape anyone, lol.  Naw, I'm sure they were innocent as kittens until she was eighteen.  ;p

[Trini]

Speaking of Snow Barry, What do we make of this bit of dialog from 3.22:

Quote

Killer Frost: "We're a team, right? Barry and Caitlin, at it again."
Savitar: "You're not Caitlin. And I'm not Barry."

Mixed message? Because to me it seemed like it was both 'shipbait-y AND dismissive of the 'ship. It also wasn't really related to what they were discussing before or after these lines.

I mean, if they really wanted to dismiss it, they would have had Savitar finish the statement -- "...And we were never a team." And it seems bait-y because why even have these lines at all? (At WHAT again??)

[johntfs]

11 hours ago, Grace19 said:

The thing I love about this pair is that apart from racist trolls and some people who want iris gone so that their ship can happen (snowbarry and patty/Barry), most people who don't ship westallen still love iris and want the show to do better for her. This is has nothing to do with the writers, in fact sometimes I feel like they hate the character. This is all Candice, with everything stacked against her, she still made iris charming and easy to love, it also helps that she is a good actress that shines with any little opportunity she's given.

I just hope the writing for her will improve. And please writers just let westallen be happy next season, they've paid their dues this season.

While I didn't exactly "'ship" Caitlin and Barry, during a good it of the first season I kind of expected them to end up together.  I thought Barry yearning for a person who was kind of his older sister was a little off and hoped he'd grow the fuck out of it. Every time Barry pined for Iris, I kept seeing this scene from Robot Chicken with a skit mocking The Brady Bunch:

"Robot Chicken: Suck It (#2.1)" (2006)
Greg Brady: No, we wouldn't go to Hell, because she's not really our sister.
Peter Brady: So, these feelings are natural?

I could almost hear some version of that conversation between Barry and Cisco.  I honestly expected Barry and Iris to eventually develop a relationship similar to the one between Alex and Kara on Supergirl, with Iris playing the savvier older sister looking out for her dorky superhero younger brother, Barry.  I figured Iris would end up in the know pretty quickly and help Barry hide his identity from Joe and Eddie.  I also expected Iris to be the one who'd tip to Wells/Thawne having a secret, dark agenda.

One thing that's really struck me as odd is the utter lack of a relationship between Iris and Caitlin.  They're not friends, they're not enemies, they're not rivals for Barry.  They're not "sisters from other misters."  One of the things I liked most about Grimm before it turned to shit in Season Four was the way that the characters of Juliette and Rosalee became really good friends within the show.  I wanted that for Iris and Caitlin.  I still do, really.  I want Iris to talk with Julian(or whoever the next guy is if Tom Felton leaves) and say something like "Caitlin's had a really tough time.  I think you could be really good for her.  Of course, if you use her or hurt her, my boyfriend is a CSI and Cisco can travel to other worlds.  I guarantee you that no one will every find even a little bit of your corpse."  I want Caitlin to be the maiden/matron of honor at Iris and Barry's wedding.  Stuff like that.  I want Iris and Caitlin to have a relationship similar to the one that Barry and Cisco have. 

Right now it's hard to believe they'd even bother to wave to each at the grocery store, despite both being big parts of Barry's life.

Edited May 19, 2017 by johntfs

[Mellowyellow]

I don't understand SnowBarry and never saw it on the show! In fact when they introduced the new BC and Olicity were broken up I used to run around the Arrow forum saying "I hope the new BC only has a Caitlin/Barry relationship with Oliver" because to me it was a good friends/colleagues relationship, nothing more. 

Granted I am completely neutral when it comes to shipping on Flash so maybe I don't read as much into things.

I always thought that Iris was set up as his great childhood romance and I grew up on this stuff with the Chinese/Korean series that I watch so it didn't ever occur to me that they were anything but endgame even if I didn't ship them. Plus she ends up with him in the comics. 

[BkWurm1]

1 hour ago, Trini said:

Speaking of Snow Barry, What do we make of this bit of dialog from 3.22:

Mixed message? Because to me it seemed like it was both 'shipbait-y AND dismissive of the 'ship. It also wasn't really related to what they were discussing before or after these lines.

I mean, if they really wanted to dismiss it, they would have had Savitar finish the statement -- "...And we were never a team." And it seems bait-y because why even have these lines at all? (At WHAT again??)

I thought it was suppose to show that Caitlin was still in there, longing for a connection back to her old life and her old life was part of Team Barry.  It's not like it was ever just Barry and Caitlin on a team.  Cisco and Wells were there from the start as well.  

[BkWurm1]

2 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

I don't understand SnowBarry and never saw it on the show! In fact when they introduced the new BC and Olicity were broken up I used to run around the Arrow forum saying "I hope the new BC only has a Caitlin/Barry relationship with Oliver" because to me it was a good friends/colleagues relationship, nothing more. 

Granted I am completely neutral when it comes to shipping on Flash so maybe I don't read as much into things.

I always thought that Iris was set up as his great childhood romance and I grew up on this stuff with the Chinese/Korean series that I watch so it didn't ever occur to me that they were anything but endgame even if I didn't ship them. Plus she ends up with him in the comics. 

There was a possibility of something IMO in the early episodes since Caitlin was in the know about his secret and she and Barry had scenes designed to get to know each other and connect on an emotional level.  There was a lot of talk before the show aired that they'd messed up and created another Felicity vs Laurel situation since the preview clips and the first episode that ether got released early or pirated (I can't remember) showed better Caitlin/Barry scenes than Barry/Iris scenes, but within a few episodes it seemed clear the show wasn't going that direction after all.  I mean Felicity showed up in episode 4 and blew any chemistry he had with Caitlin out of the water, lol.  (And I much prefer Barry and Felicity as friends)

[Mellowyellow]

Haha that's probably why I didn't see anything @BkWurm1

I was watching Flash calmly, enjoying it very much, completely neutral until I saw Felicity and went ballistic "Who is that freaking adorable blonde girl who just appeared? I need to chase her down in her show!"

[BkWurm1]

4 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Haha that's probably why I didn't see anything @BkWurm1

I was watching Flash calmly, enjoying it very much, completely neutral until I saw Felicity and went ballistic "Who is that freaking adorable blonde girl who just appeared? I need to chase her down in her show!"

Hee!

I loved her in that appearance.  And not just for the fun of the episode on Flash. (And it's still very watchable) That was about a month into Arrow's season three and it had already been a very rough month with Sara's death, Olicity literally blowing up, her being shipped to Palmer Island (yes, I know you liked it, lol) and Felicity not allowed to give the audience a hint of her feelings for Oliver all that time.  Then she pops over to the Flash like she was hoping to see if there was anything between her and Barry (or at least that is what that dress made me think, lol)  and we got that incredibly lovely scene at the end between them on the train as they mutually pined for the love of their lives.  

Did more to get me on the Iris/Barry train than anything before that.  I bought their friendship and fondness for each other so I really bought into them each having inescapable feelings for that other person.   

Of course this was also the episode where I was reminded that Barry is kind of a selfish jerk.  Who doesn't at least call the girl that repeatedly visited you while you were in a coma after you wake up from a coma?  Ass.  Lol.  

[Trini]

4 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

It's not like it was ever just Barry and Caitlin on a team.

That's why it's weird to me; because KF was only talking about the both of them.

-------------

35 minutes ago, johntfs said:

One thing that's really struck me as odd is the utter lack of a relationship between Iris and Caitlin.  They're not friends, they're not enemies, they're not rivals for Barry.  They're not "sisters from other misters."  One of the things I liked most about Grimm before it turned to shit in Season Four was the way that the characters of Juliette and Rosalee became really good friends within the show.  I wanted that for Iris and Caitlin.  I still do, really.  I want Iris to talk with Julian(or whoever the next guy is if Tom Felton leaves) and say something like "Caitlin's had a really tough time.  I think you could be really good for her.  Of course, if you use her or hurt her, my boyfriend is a CSI and Cisco can travel to other worlds.  I guarantee you that no one will every find even a little bit of your corpse."  I want Caitlin to be the maiden/matron of honor at Iris and Barry's wedding.  Stuff like that.  I want Iris and Caitlin to have a relationship similar to the one that Barry and Cisco have. 

Right now it's hard to believe they'd even bother to wave to each at the grocery store, despite both being big parts of Barry's life.

I'd rather Linda be the maid of honor than Caitlin (especially now), but otherwise I agree. It is odd; and this season they've barely interacted, so much so that I suspect they're actually avoiding putting them together. Why? No idea. But then again, the women on the show almost never get to interact with other women.

In season 2, they had the opportunity for Iris and Caitlin to bond/support each other  over the deaths of Eddie and Ronnie; but nooooo.

[BkWurm1]

41 minutes ago, doram said:

I was watching the original show promo, and I realized how little of Iris is in it - one scene of her staring at a TV screen, no dialogue, no interaction with Barry, no definition of her relationship with him; on the contrast, Caitlin and scenes of Snowbarry permeate the trailer; and I am strongly suspect that the producers were deliberately trying to create the same Felicity vs Laurel theory that had accidentally happened on Arrow. Basically, they were setting Iris as a Decoy Love Interest to make way for eventual Snowbarry

I do remember vividly how the fandom initially reacted and there was a lot of people that were ready to get on board Snowbarry because of those early trailers and I was one of them since i knew and liked DP from other stuff she'd done.  I didn't care about the Flash's history so I was all for it.  Only, I really felt that the writing for the show shut down the idea of Iris being anything but the actual end game within the first few episodes.  And the interviews coming from Kreisberg and Co also seemed to really shut that down hard even before the series started.  Which was one of the reasons the odd "practically" sister/brother line was so heavily mocked in the beginning because it was like they were trying to make this harder than it needed to be even though there was every indication that they'd learned what not to do in introducing the love interest after the disaster that was Laurel Lance and the sister swapping set up. 

I guess my comment is I don't think there was real intent to do a love Decoy thing, but it just kind of ended up maybe seeming like that.  I used to think maybe there was an early intent to have Caitlin be a failed early love interest stall before they made her go evil but then recently i heard initially Caitlin was supposed to be cast as a woman many years older than Barry so I went back to thinking that any Snowbarry stuff was an accident of the writing and not actual intent.  At least at first. 

The karaoke scene was totally shipper bait but even then I didnt' really take it seriously as anything but something done for fun.  I wish the show would send the team to karaoke more often. The show needs more down time scenes this year.  Or rather more downtime without Iris about to die hanging over their heads.  Next year better be way more fun than this year. 

Edited May 19, 2017 by BkWurm1

[Trini]

49 minutes ago, doram said:

Basically, they were setting Iris as a Decoy Love Interest to make way for eventual Snowbarry. 

I completely disagree. My impression is that they saw what happened with Arrow, did NOT want the same situation, and that's one of the reasons why they gave Barry and Iris a stronger, familial connection and backstory starting from the pilot.

They definitely did some 'ship baiting in Season 1, though. But they dropped that to pair up Caitlin/Jay and Barry/Patty. Then of course they finally went forward with Barry and Iris late Season 2.

[phoenics]

Yeah - the PR department was hellbent on promoting DP and DP was hellbent on promoting herself and SB.  CP be damned.  I've side-eyed DP ever since - she clearly wanted to be the lead actress and was angling for that hard before the show even aired.  I wouldn't be surprised at all if the reason we don't see CP/DP scenes is because of her actions in S1 and S2 - CP used to always advocate for more interaction with DP/Caitlin, while DP only advocated to be the "only girl in the room".  At this point if CP demanded that she be kept away from DP I wouldn't be surprised.  DP spent two seasons trying to steal her spot.

That bish can choke on her own saliva as far as I'm concerned.  Plus she can't act her way out of a paper bag.

Edited May 19, 2017 by phoenics

[phoenics]

Just now, doram said:

Seriously. For someone who's supposed to be a veteran, she has absolutely no control over her face.

Even recently, she gave an interview where she said that Snowbarry had a "connection",  and that Barry is only interested in Iris "for now". I don't know whether she even knows the show she's starring in.

She is such a GD menace.  I mean - *racepalm*  No.  She doesn't know what show she's on - she thinks she's EBR.  Notice in S1 she was trying to act just like Felicity.  And honestly - one of those is enough.  So glad we didn't have her crossover umpteen times this season - stay in your lane FeFe.

Usually people like her target people like CP to take over their stuff because they believe their "privilege" will always win out in the end.  I've had this happen to me at work - where a coworker just CANNOT believe I'm the head honcho, the boss, the founder, the golden child and literally throw tantrums that they aren't in charge when 1) they haven't earned it 2) they didn't create it 3) they haven't achieved as much as I have and 4) they suck at it!

And you know where those folks are now?  Fired.

DP needs to worry about her own d@mn self.  If the show goes down that road it would have to twist itself into a pretzel to make it work (because how could Iris or Cait EVER be in the same room again after some foolishness like that?) and likely have plot holes everywhere and all kind of nonsense.  Doing it earlier would have made more sense - but it's clear that's not where the show is headed.  

Bring Bart Allen onboard now please.