Relationships: Speed Dating

[nksarmi]

I am SO amused at how Flash fans view Olicity - good to know there is some variety of thought out there.  I actually love Felicity, but didn't not like the idea of her and Oliver together for a long, long time.  I kind of still think she's "too good for him." But sometimes people choose that and give someone a chance to be something other than what they once were.  That's what the "olicity" story is all about - her giving him a chance to be the man he wants to be rather than the man he was.

 

The funny thing is that I think that's what the original Laurel and Oliver story was going to be about, but where it's semi-believable with a "trusted friend who becomes a love interest" - it isn't believable that you can do that story with the man who cheater on the woman with her sister!  So I think the classic comic book pairing of Arrow was absolutely doomed from the first script - no matter what type of chemistry the actors had.

 

When they decided to bring Sara back in season two, they made it obvious they had no interest in pursuing that pairing again as far as I'm concerned.  I honestly had no idea that Black Canary equaled Dinah Laurel Lance (I knew the superhero - just not the name) so I was ready to buy into Sara as BC 100%.  That was an awful decision by the show runners if they always intended to kill Sara and make Laurel Black Canary.  Just bad decision making at its worse. 

 

Bringing this back around to topic, while the decision to make Barry and Iris foster siblings and then put Iris in a line of work that makes it harder for them to tie her into the overall story telling seem like bad choices - they aren't toxic, kill the ship choices like the ones made on Arrow.  So I honestly believe WestAllen has a chance, but I would appreciate them showing the friendship more - and more of those little scenes like when she jumps off the building and he races and catches her - so I can buy into the relationship more.  As of now, I like both characters but I have no reason to like them together.

[zannej]

IIRC, Oliver cheated on Dinah even in the comic books and I think they ended up getting married eventually.

 

As for the Iris/Barry thing, while I did like that Iris knew Barry needed his daddy, I also wish that Iris was still the one he needed to inspire him. The first time he fought Grodd, it was Iris who got him through it. She was the one who reached out to him and got him to fight off the mind invasion and saved his life. Now all of a sudden she is no longer that rock for him, and I find that sad. I can understand if she didn't feel as close to him anymore after lying to her like she was stupid for so long, but Barry not feeling that faith in her anymore doesn't seem right.

 

I do hope the thing with Patty is short and I would like to see Barry and Iris back to being good friends-- only actually showing us that they are close in a way that isn't one-sided.

[hogwash]

I'm not worried about Westallen not happening. None of the alternatives to Iris are popular enough to justify throwing away comic canon and the show didn't saddled them with a horrible backstory. Like many of you, I'm afraid they won't do it justice.

 

If Iris confessed to having feelings for Barry in the next episode, I wouldn't buy it. That needs to change. I don't want pining but I want some kind of indication that Iris is interested in Barry. We all know how Barry feels. She's the holdout. A couple of looks/glances or someone else guessing at how she feels or putting words in her mouth won't work for me. It has to be her own POV

[Ruby25]

I'm not worried about Westallen not happening. None of the alternatives to Iris are popular enough to justify throwing away comic canon and the show didn't saddled them with a horrible backstory. Like many of you, I'm afraid they won't do it justice.

 

If Iris confessed to having feelings for Barry in the next episode, I wouldn't buy it. That needs to change. I don't want pining but I want some kind of indication that Iris is interested in Barry. We all know how Barry feels. She's the holdout. A couple of looks/glances or someone else guessing at how she feels or putting words in her mouth won't work for me. It has to be her own POV

I agree. This is the number one thing that needs to happen. I just wonder how that would happen if she doesn't even care about the Patty thing. That seems like a writing error. Maybe they didn't want to have an overt love triangle going on, but we do have to see SOME indication of Iris's feelings for Barry at some point. If she has any at all, him dating somebody else should logically make her feel something..

[Actionmage]

and then put Iris in a line of work that makes it harder for them to tie her into the overall story telling

 

How is Iris being in the exact same profession as Lois Lane making it  harder for the writers to integrate Iris to the story? Like Lois, she could be an exposition fairy when needed. Iris could break important  info to Barry and Co. about sightings and rumors she's heard through her reporter's grapevine and sources. The only reason she isn't currently doing so is because the writers aren't allowing it to happen/ can't figure out what Superman writers for 70-odd years have managed to do with their reporter.

 

In fact, her reporting could have been a great conduit for the "Iris cares about Barry and not-just-as-a-friend!" stuff. A lingering gaze as Barry goes to find/fight a villain or both worrying about the other after Iris gives Barry a Killer Shark sighting.

 

I am not advocating a Lois clone, but there are plenty of nosy, investigative reporter tropes that haven't been touched.

 

I am also not against a Caitlin/Harry experiment.  They have a lovely warmth. Harry also has Eobard's gentlemanly formalness that feels like it is a joke between the characters.

[phoenics]

Iris being a reporter should have been the EASIEST solution to the "how do we integrate Iris into Team Flash more?" problem. The problem is, they gave that angle to Patty.

Really, really bad writing. And using CP to do interviews to build up and then placate fans isn't enough. Again - they wanted the glory of "DIVERSITY!" without actually backing it up. It's just tokenism.

If things don't significantly improve in the back half, I'm out. I already don't even watch live anymore.

[nksarmi]

Eh, if they didn't have Team Barry in the lab and the dynamic had been Forensic Investigator - Crime Reporter where Iris would go to Barry for the "scoop" her dad wouldn't give her and she occasionally got herself into trouble investigating a story that would led her to crossing paths with Flash - I think it all would have worked great.

 

But Barry doesn't operate independently (not sure if he did in the comics or not) - he has "Team Barry" in the lab to provide him with leads on what crime/who to fight and support in the field.  And we don't really get to see Iris being a reporter.  And now as others have said, Patty has the co-worker plot that Lois had with Clark Kent.  So all in all - it just doesn't seem to work.

 

If they keep everything else the same, a different profession for Iris would probably work better.  Making her a criminal profiler would have rocked.

[zannej]

Eh, if they didn't have Team Barry in the lab and the dynamic had been Forensic Investigator - Crime Reporter where Iris would go to Barry for the "scoop" her dad wouldn't give her and she occasionally got herself into trouble investigating a story that would led her to crossing paths with Flash - I think it all would have worked great.

 

But Barry doesn't operate independently (not sure if he did in the comics or not) - he has "Team Barry" in the lab to provide him with leads on what crime/who to fight and support in the field.  And we don't really get to see Iris being a reporter.  And now as others have said, Patty has the co-worker plot that Lois had with Clark Kent.  So all in all - it just doesn't seem to work.

 

If they keep everything else the same, a different profession for Iris would probably work better.  Making her a criminal profiler would have rocked.

Having Iris be interested in science would have worked as well. If she'd been interested in reporting on technological innovations as well as metahumans and such, it would have been good. But, as it was, she was introduced as thinking journalism was "boring" and the only reason she got interested was because of "the streak".

 

It would be nice if maybe Iris walked in on Patty getting mad at Barry for keeping secrets and Iris could console Barry, but at the same time, let him know how she felt the same way when she realized he was keeping things from her. But maybe at some point in it, Barry could be made to realize that the reason he's not telling his secret to Patty is because, even though he likes her and is attracted to her, he's not in love with her and she is not the one he wants to be with. Now, that may sound silly, but for a show with metahumans, I think it could work.

[phoenics]

I think that having Team Flash messed up the Barry-Iris dynamic that exists in the comics. Iris and Barry in the comics were a pair - they worked on cases TOGETHER. And Barry was Team Flash (Cait and Cisco) BY HIMSELF. He was literally a forensic genius and didn't need the help he gets from Team Flash. Barry and Iris actually had a Lois & Clark dynamic - just imagine an even spunkier Lois and a brilliant Clark (like genius level).

So no - Iris doesn't need to be a scientist (why are we always trying to geekify comic women as if they aren't good enough just being women with non-science careers? And I say that as a bonafide PhD scientist) - they manage to integrate Patty into things with her bringing the metahuman knowledge. The PROBLEM is that they keep giving Iris source material from the comics to characters that HER story doesn't belong with.

Iris is the reporter. Metahumans are HER thing. Working on cases with Barry was HER thing.

On the show, they gave that to Cisco, Cait and now Patty.

And even the "best friend" thing, they've given to Joe.

The issue isn't Iris' job, her profession, or any of that. Making her a scientist means JACK if the writers just don't want to include her and that's the reality, imo, right now.

[phoenics]

I just realized now that the show claimed we would see Iris struggle with the whole brother thing with her dad... and poof. Nope. Next episode after the backdoor pilot (where Iris has ONE line),

she and Joe meet Wally.

Yeah - Iris held onto that forever - just like Joe. Not, lol. They barely held her look at the end of the last episode where she reacted to Joe waxing poetic about a son...

Ugh.

Edited November 24, 2015 by phoenics

[Ruby25]

I think that having Team Flash messed up the Barry-Iris dynamic that exists in the comics. Iris and Barry in the comics were a pair - they worked on cases TOGETHER. And Barry was Team Flash (Cait and Cisco) BY HIMSELF. He was literally a forensic genius and didn't need the help he gets from Team Flash. Barry and Iris actually had a Lois & Clark dynamic - just imagine an even spunkier Lois and a brilliant Clark (like genius level).

 

This is really unfortunate, because you're right. And I would have LOVED to see that dynamic on the actual screen, especially given how important it was to Flash comics. They kinda went in a completely different direction because of the Star Labs team. And when they decided to do that, they didn't bother to integrate Iris's character in a way so that she'd feel essential to the setup of the show itself.

[zannej]

To clarify, I wasn't saying that Iris had to be a scientist. I said that it would have helped if she was interested in science because Barry is interested in science and it would be a common interest for them. It wouldn't have to be her only interest, but instead of clueless Iris whining that she needed Barry to explain the boring science to her, it would have been nice if she actually found it interesting and liked discussing it with him, but her passion was really journalism. She could have liked science enough to write about new innovations, but might not have had the same level of knowledge as Barry, so he would be a good technical consultant for her.

 

But, you are right that unless they choose to include her, it won't matter what interests they give her.

[patchwork]

With Laurel getting significantly less plot/screen time in the last few seasons I've come to realise it's Katie's limitations as an actress that were the real problem for me not Laurel herself. I would love for Iris to have the individual screen time Laurel once had. We used to see Laurel working cases, going on dates and generally doing stuff that wasn't directly related to Oliver. She got to grieve in a very self destructive way about Tommy's death rather than this Mary Sunshine act we have with Iris. Obviously there was some serious missteps with Laurel but right now I would take that over a female lead who doesn't get any face time unless it's about the male lead. 

 

Annoyingly yes it would be easy to integrate Iris with Team Flash using the reporter connection and she doesn't need to be at Star Labs except for team meetings. She does the investigating getting the personal angle, on screen or off depending on the plot, Cisco builds a doodad and/or hacks the city cameras to help Barry out during a fight and Caitlin does medical stuff and offers pseudo scientific explanation for the meta of week's powers. Then Joe can do pep talks as required. In this scenario Barry does just remain the guy who can run really fast but he could have a side project like Gideon or something. 

 

I think the show missed out by not having Caitlin and Iris grow closer over the hiatus. They could have explained Caitlin's decision to go back to Star Labs, Iris has a neutral third party to talk to about her mother and the fact Joe lied yet again, Caitlin could have worried she was falling for Jay on the rebound giving us a chance to check in with how Iris' grieving process is doing and that could have linked with WestAllen setting up how she felt about Batty.  

[phoenics]

To clarify, I wasn't saying that Iris had to be a scientist. I said that it would have helped if she was interested in science because Barry is interested in science and it would be a common interest for them. It wouldn't have to be her only interest, but instead of clueless Iris whining that she needed Barry to explain the boring science to her, it would have been nice if she actually found it interesting and liked discussing it with him, but her passion was really journalism. She could have liked science enough to write about new innovations, but might not have had the same level of knowledge as Barry, so he would be a good technical consultant for her.

 

But, you are right that unless they choose to include her, it won't matter what interests they give her.

Iris does discuss science with him - she went to nerdy events with him and she constantly supported his efforts. Iris was presented as being not all that interested in science, but she still went to Barry's events and listened to him talk about science, even if she didn't understand it all. Patty is the science geek and that's fine - but I think the point really is supposed to be that Iris doesn't have to love science for her and Barry to be it for one another - that too much "sameness" actually doesn't work. Patty on paper looks "perfect" for Barry, but I think he's going to realize at some point that she's not it for him. Science or not.

And the common interest of Barry and Iris has always been that she believed him and she believes in the impossible and did that before she ever had any proof of it. She even started a blog on it FOR Barry. And had the exact same voiceover that Barry did - the same words. They're in sync that way, so I just don't see this need to re=make Iris into someone she's not because ... science.

Didn't we learn this lesson already with super snob Caitlin thinking that the scientist guy was a better Firestorm option than regular dude who dropped out of college because his family couldn't afford it after he got hurt?

Iris doesn't have to be a scientist, understand all of the science, in order to have stuff in common with Barry. They already have that stuff in common - favorite bowling alley, all of their little quirks, Barry: "that was my favorite mug"; Iris later on sees the broken mug: "oh, that was Barry's favorite mug".

Honestly, when Barry was being mind controlled by Grodd - it wasn't "science" that saved him, it was his connection to Iris. She pulled him out of that - just like she does in the comics. And when Barry gets stuck in the speed force, it's not going to be "science" or even Patty who pulls him out - it's going to be Iris - because comic canonically she's his lightning rod.

I think Iris has proven she's there for Barry - I'm just sad to see the writers not letting Barry be supportive of Iris beyond a convo when he's blind. Otherwise - nothing. And the scenes in the beginning of the season he was always angry and seemed to turn that on her constantly.

Right now, Iris is too good for Barry honestly.

I wonder if the writers understand just how badly that cut scene between WA hurt this show and the fandom - many folks are jumping ship and if Sleepy Hollow is any indication, they won't come back. TPTB really have this storyline with Wally to clean it up. If Iris is window dressing in that story the way she's been in the story about her mom, then I really will quit this show and light up the #iriswestdeservesbetter hashtag on twitter.

[wingster55]

In the first season, she encouraged Oliver to date McKenna because they needed info from McKenna. Later, when Oliver talked about getting lunch with Laurel, she and Diggle both asked him if this was a good idea, given the complications.

 

She actually encouraged him to ask Mckenna in the same scene where she encouraged Diggle to go after Carly. 

And Laurel was complicated solely because of the Tommy issue. 

[Ruby25]

Something I don't understand about the Barry/Patty stuff is why any show still wants to waste so much time on storylines like "stalling romances" that they know no one will care about, because everybody already knows it's DOA.

 

Doesn't that prevent any interest in the whole story from the start? I know they know this, and yet they still want it to go on for months? It's such a waste of time, I just don't see the point of these things anymore. Especially on a show that's actually NOT meant to be something like Gossip Girl, where the only point is who's hooking up with who.

 

An action-adventure superhero show can maintain not having a pointless and doomed "other" relationship waste airtime just because they want to delay their main pairing. I mean, Eddie's death was enough of a reason, if they really needed one to exist. You'd probably have to show at least some of Iris's grief for it to be believable, but it could be there.

 

No one cares about the Barry/Patty thing, because why should they? If I was a writer, I wouldn't want to commit to a 15 episode (at least) storyline/relationship that I know has no chance of anyone caring about it. I'd suggest simply not doing it instead. If it's absolutely necessary that Barry be shown to have some experience (which is debatable anyway but likely one of the big reasons they're doing this at all) just let him have a slip with a one night stand or something- at least it wouldn't take so long, and then that could be over and done with and they don't have to waste a whole season on it.

 

Or maybe do this Patty thing in 3-5 episodes, not 15 (or the whole season god forbid, although I'm really hoping it doesn't last THAT long).

Edited November 25, 2015 by Ruby25

[phoenics]

You know what's bothering me the most now?

Now it really does feel like Barry was just being Iris' friend so she would date him. Right now, Iris clearly is fine with being friends and is working hard at being a good friend, but Barry just isn't there for her at all.

They really shouldn't have cut that scene if they didn't want Barry to look like a f*ckboy.

[CabotCove]

Having said that, I don't, unlike others here, think that the show has stopped teasing Barry/Iris or stopped giving them big moments - just last episode, Iris was the only character who immediately figured out what Barry needed emotionally and took steps to get that for Barry. They also had that huge, classic, hero saves the girl falling off a building moment earlier this season. I don't think we've seen anything in the show to say that Barry and Iris won't end up together - just that the show has chosen to pull back on Barry/Iris a bit for whatever reason this season

 

Exactly those little or big moments in every episode matter, every piece adds to the bigger puzzle . So no, WestAllen is not going to come from nowhere.

 

She got to grieve in a very self destructive way about Tommy's death rather than this Mary Sunshine act we have with Iris. Obviously there was some serious missteps with Laurel but right now I would take that over a female lead who doesn't get any face time unless it's about the male lead..

 

 

I wouldnt trade how Iris'  grief is handled for Laurel's, her reaction to Tommy was totally over the top and was character assassination IMO. She always wanted Oliver over him and she had experienced far much worse tragedies in her family to fall apart like that.  I buy Iris/Eddie more than Tommy/Laurel yet I wouldnt want Iris to self destruct and acting like its the end of the world. That being said, yeah she should have been shown grieving him, those two cared about each other a lot even thought they may not have been "the love of each other's life". 

 

Something I don't understand about the Barry/Patty stuff is why any show still wants to waste so much time on storylines like "stalling romances" that they know no one will care about, because everybody already knows it's DOA.

 

Likely because its  a multi episode, long running TV show not a movie, they have got to pad up that time somehow. New characters and new relationships allow for new stories, new dynamics, character growth etc. Everyone has their favorite characters and ships but a show cant afford to survive on servicing "fan favourites" alone. 

Edited November 25, 2015 by WildcardC

[phoenics]

Likely because its  a multi episode, long running TV show not a movie, they have got to pad up that time somehow. New characters and new relationships allow for new stories, new dynamics, character growth etc. Everyone has their favorite characters and ships but a show cant afford to survive on servicing "fan favourites" alone.

Um, when has Iris, the fan favorite of many, EVER been served on this show? I mean - honestly? When have we ever gotten a PoV for her?

I agree that the show plans to run for a long time... but that doesn't mean that they can't give Iris a PoV and integrate her more. Right now, she'd lift right out... and even with Wally I worry that she'd lift right out. In fact, I'm going to bet right here that the Wally story will be more about Joe and Barry than Iris.

[Ruby25]

 

Likely because its  a multi episode, long running TV show not a movie, they have got to pad up that time somehow. New characters and new relationships allow for new stories, new dynamics, character growth etc. Everyone has their favorite characters and ships but a show cant afford to survive on servicing "fan favourites" alone. 

This is not an excuse. Relationships are more interesting when a couple is together than when they are apart. They can mine many seasons' worth of material from Barry and Iris as the solid couple they are supposed to be.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Ruby25

[CabotCove]

Um, when has Iris, the fan favorite of many, EVER been served on this show? I mean - honestly? When have we ever gotten a PoV for her?

 

I was talking about "fan favourites" in reference to ships, I think WestAllen is the most preferred ship so far on The Flash hence a fan favourite. Then Snowbarry but the show chose to go with a new ship Batty (for now) likely for creative reasons. So the  Iris issue is totally a different topic, my post and the one I replied to was focused on ships, I believe.  Hope thats more clear.

 

Relationships are more interesting when a couple is together than when they are apart.

 

Yeah, I have come to find out that most couples can definately be more enjoyable when together than being in "the will they wont they "cycle. I just think from a writer's pov they tend to stick to what has always been the formula and they might be afraid that they will run out of things to write for the couple if the show was to last 7-10 years or so. I think by seeing more shows being successful with writing a couple together, new writers and shows will begin to see that its possible to write good couples that are together for the duration of the series.The moonlight curse is slowly but surely being dispelled over the years.  Maybe Flash will learn from Arrow and put WestAllen together a season earlier (season 3) without anymore ship stalls or breaking them up after a first date. 

Edited November 27, 2015 by WildcardC

[phoenics]

CP did an interview at one point over the summer which basically said that the producers meant the show to last a really long time and then she alluded to the will they/won't they lasting longer...

But the issue is, they seem to have dropped the will they/won't they part because no one seems to be pining for the other...

I will be so angry if they try to do them like Jack/Emily. Having Westallen finally come together in the series finale will not be enough (I won't be watching anyway if that's where they go with it).

[Trini]

I wonder if they would bother giving Iris another love interest, or show her dating before they pair her up with Barry? It just seems like the standard TV thing to do, especially since they still haven't acknowledged her (alleged) feelings for Barry.

 

I was thinking about it because Barry, Cisco, and Caitlyn have all gotten new love interests this season. (Obviously, some more serious than others.) If Joe gets a love interest too, we'll know there's a pattern.

[AyChihuahua]

Olicity goes against just about everything that is the Oliver Queen we were introduced to during the first two seasons of Arrow.  I'm not saying he had to end up with Laurel (at least not before the very end of the show's run), but he gives up being a serial polygamist just cause 'OLICITY FTW!!!'?? 

When was Oliver a "serial polygamist"? 

[zannej]

I wonder if the writers/producers are worried about ratings slipping once Barry and Iris actually do get together. I know some shows got a lot of attention because of the UST between characters on some shows. IIRC, "Moonlighting" sort of tanked after David and Maddie finally hooked up. I don't know if that was because there was no longer the thrill of hoping for something and then it was anticlimactic, or if it was because the writers didn't know how to make the stories interesting anymore. And now I need to see if I can find episodes of that show online because I have not watched it in decades...

 

Phoenics, you made some very good points. I don't want or expect them to change Iris to be more interested in science, I just think it would have been cool if that had been a common interest-- maybe its a bit of projection because I like science and grew up in a family of people who like science. I relate more to the nerd characters on shows. I also think it might have given her a little more to discuss with the other characters so she wouldn't be so left out. I had forgotten that she went to events with Barry because she was basically supporting his interests. I wish that her support for him didn't seem so one-sided now. It's like Barry forgot about her and is focusing on Patty. Does Barry even know about Wally? I can't remember. It would be nice to see Barry reciprocating more with Iris.

 

I am hoping they don't keep dragging out the will they/won't they dynamic though.

[phoenics]

When was Oliver a "serial polygamist"?

I took that phrase to mean serial cheater and/or philanderer, lol. Which he was when the show began...

[AyChihuahua]

I took that phrase to mean serial cheater and/or philanderer, lol. Which he was when the show began...

He was a terrible ridiculous cheater in the flashbacks, five years prior to even the pilot.  I've never understood this idea that post-island Oliver was a manwhore.  He slept with: Huntress, McKenna, Laurel, Isabel, and Sara, in two years.  He's a late-20s super good looking dude...five sexual partners in two years is nothing.  Sure most of his specific choices in sexual partners were stupid, but sleeping with people you shouldn't doesn't make someone a whore, man or woman.

 

And yeah, I'm not directing this at you because you obviously know this, but that's not at all what "polygamist" means.

Edited November 25, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[phoenics]

Phoenics, you made some very good points. I don't want or expect them to change Iris to be more interested in science, I just think it would have been cool if that had been a common interest-- maybe its a bit of projection because I like science and grew up in a family of people who like science. I relate more to the nerd characters on shows. I also think it might have given her a little more to discuss with the other characters so she wouldn't be so left out. I had forgotten that she went to events with Barry because she was basically supporting his interests. I wish that her support for him didn't seem so one-sided now. It's like Barry forgot about her and is focusing on Patty. Does Barry even know about Wally? I can't remember. It would be nice to see Barry reciprocating more with Iris.

 

I am hoping they don't keep dragging out the will they/won't they dynamic though.

I understand the compulsion to want to make Iris into a "science geek" or something because we think that will make the writers integrate her more. I also understand the fandom is full of girls/women/guys who are geeks and nerds and look at the "geeky science kid" as the one who should "win" finally. And for many in the fandom, Iris represented the super hot girl that they hated in high school who got all the guys while they sat on the sidelines alone. Even though Iris was presented as a super sweet girl who wouldn't hurt a fly unless that fly threatened her, lol.

A lot of the hate at Iris stemmed from fanboys who sit alone in a basement of their mother's house and never got the girl, who see themselves as Barry. So Iris rejecting Barry hit them personally.

And a lot of fangirls who identify more with the geeky girl wanted Barry with someone they could self-insert themselves. It's why Felicity was so popular - initially she was 1000% fan service - and geeky, but in a hot body. So fangirls self inserted with her and fanboys self inserted with Oliver.

But if Oliver had been a geek - the pairing wouldn't have worked. You lose something when two people are THE SAME. That's why Chloe and Clark were a dud to me - you can't have two outcasts hooking up - where is the fun and conquest in that? The only times when two like people work together is Blair Waldorf and Chuck Bass - because it works when people are BAD and powerful, but with vulnerable traits, but not good. You have to have some variety and differences when they are good so you can root for the geeky guy or girl to get the "unattainable" girl or guy.

Relationships are partly about power too - so part of why I *thought* they were doing Batty was to get Iris to wake up to what she could lose if Batty gets serious and then we'd see HER pine and THEN she and Barry would even out and then come together as equals rather than with Iris having all the power because Barry loves her and idolizes her more. To me, that was the point of Batty - but it doesn't work if they just don't ever show us Iris' PoV and let us go on her journey with her.

I'm a scientist myself - I earned a PhD in Computer Science. I could take down Felicity without breaking a nail. So I understand wanting to see scientist characters "win" and to see myself through them. But even though I'm a scientist, I was never outcast for it. Plus I wasn't so geeky and nerdy that I was outcast. I was a cheerleader too and in student government. I had a lot of interests... so that's why I don't see the need to make Iris like Felicity in order to get her more story.

The real upshot is that if the writers wanted to have her be more incorporated, they would. Even if Iris was into science or a scientist on the show, she'd be shoved in the background because that's where these f#%k!Qg w^!t@^s want her.

And yeah, I'm not directing this at you because you obviously know this, but that's not at all what "polygamist" means.

Hahahha!!! OMGoodness - for some reason I skipped right over the meaning of that word, lol. I stared at it, but my brain would not let go of "oh obviously they meant cheater!" and not "takes multiple wives!"

Edited November 25, 2015 by phoenics

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

When was Oliver a "serial polygamist"? 

 

Ok, wrong term coined.  But the point is if a woman showed interest, he didn't exactly discourage her motivations or attentions (& intentions).  So yes, cheater is what I meant.  But if the women were fine with it, I'm thinking he'd have had no problem 'dating' different women at the same time.

[Actionmage]

I think by seeing more shows being successful with writing a couple together, new writers and shows will begin to see that its possible to write good couples that are together for the duration of the series.

 

I may be older than the current writers on this show, but I grew up watching happy, functional, loving couples on my TV shows. MacMillan & Wife, Hart To Hart, Hill Street Blues, The Bob Newhart Show, The Waltons, Get Smart and plenty of others. A lot of these shows were considered successful and were on for more than a couple of seasons. Some I cringe at now, due to how long ago they were written, but? The couples, while happy and loving, weren't always 100% sunshine and trips to the South of France. The couples would argue with each other over points of view, not all the time, but when it made sense for their characters.  Bob and Emily Hartley were on for 6 seasons and there were dust-ups between them, but you knew they loved each other even if they didn't agree with the other.  The Harts and MacMillans had differing takes on cases and often pursued cases following their preferred leads and theories. I don't see why it should be some revelation that fictional couples can be functional and loving, yet still disagree over some things.

 

 

IIRC, "Moonlighting" sort of tanked after David and Maddie finally hooked up.

 

If I never hear the hoary "excuse" of the supposed "Moonlighting Curse" it will still be too soon. It was an excuse for lazy and/or crappy couple writing that came after that show, based on various things, but not just because the characters were allowed to have sex.

 

While I appreciate the bond between Barry and Joe and Barry and the team, I would appreciate Iris being able to be shown bonding with Linda. (They have started to bond, but Linda being shuttled out-of-town for her safety isn't helping.) Also, the most egregious ball-drop, as stated before somewhere, was not having Iris and Caitlin bonded over concern for Barry.  Even if they weren't BFFs, concern for Barry and nine months of waiting would tend to lend itself to small talk and familiarity, I would think.

 

While I like the different flavor of Harry and Cisco, as opposed to Thawne and Cisco, I like the kind of same-iness of Caitlin and Harry and Eobard.  I just wish that Jay was more integrated. It makes the hero look petty and small when he refuses to help a group of heroic folks because they don't agree with his plan or PoV.  Very Cartman's "Screw you guys...". I don't mind my heroes having human moments and times of being stressed to the point of breaking, but to be absent from the lab when Barry was so publicly humiliated seems off for someone who is supposed to be a hero. I hope the pay-off is worth  the absence.

 

I also think that Joe/Iris is skewed in a wrong way.  Joe seems to be 99.99% certain that Iris is going to have his back, and she tends to have it. That's cool and expected of good daughters. Yet, Iris can't depend on Joe, except to depend that he will lie to her, attempt to micromanage her and freeze her out if she disagrees hard or long enough. Then, Joe expects, and is given!,  seemingly complete and total forgiveness. At least, about the Francine/ her mother storyline. There were a couple of times Iris was allowed to get good and mad at Joe, but it blew over pretty quickly. I don't want half a season of peeved Wests, but there should be some way to balance the Iris/Joe scale, right? Joe is still cheerleads for lying, but I am hoping really hard that Joe doesn't get all self-righteous on Iris for not immediately turning over info that she learned about Francine. Especially since Joe made it clear he was done with Francine and Iris doesn't know Joe tried to pay Francine off.

[zannej]

Phoenics, again, you have interesting points. I will say that I never understood why people would hate the super hot or super popular girls (or guys) in school just because they were attractive and/or popular. I could understand disliking those people if they were total jerks, but I really didn't have any like that in my schools (I moved around a lot). There were some snobby rude kids, but they were not popular and I found them to be rather pathetic and amusing (the more I laughed at their rudeness the angrier they got). I also never got the whole self-insertion as a love interest thing. I mean, I understand the psychology behind it, but I've never felt that way. I guess the closest I can come to it is that characters with certain traits remind me of friends or family members that I like and relate to.

 

I don't think Iris being interested in science would make too much sameness because they still have their differences. But I guess they needed some non-sciencey people on the show to appeal to the viewers who aren't interested in science. I just wish that it didn't mean they were failing to write stories for Iris because she doesn't fit into the mold. I watch another show where its sort of the opposite-- the characters who are NOT nerdy get all the focus and the one nerd character is treated like crap and the writers have no idea how to write for him. They mistake being able to memorize things and spout random crap from the wikipedia as "genius". They even have this whole nerd-shaming thing going on. If another character says something intelligent, nobody bats an eye. This character shows his knowledge and they look at him like he's a space alien and/or roll their eyes at him.

 

Actionmage, I'm not saying that the Moonlighting curse is a legitimate excuse, but that I have heard it used numerous times as an excuse by writers to explain their laziness or lack of creativity. I personally enjoyed that program a lot, but I have not watched the reruns so I barely remember much about it. There are other shows where once the couple gets together, the writers just don't know what to do with them, or it just sucks. The show Bones jumped the shark when they had Bones and Booth hook up (although, I had a hard time watching that show because I can't stand the main character, but I liked the squints) and start having babies.

 

I got the impression that Caitlin didn't like Iris very much. Her comment about Iris was something like "She talks a LOT" as if she found her annoying. Maybe Caitlin is a bit of a snob or maybe its that she's uptight. Cisco's first impression of her was that she seemed nice, but I thought she was rude (yeah, I get she didn't like Hartley and he was being a dick to Cisco, but she could have been more diplomatic about it in front of a new co-worker).

 

I do wonder what the hell Jay is doing while he's laying low and if he's sitting around trying to figure out how to get his powers back on his own or if he's trying to figure out how to take down Zoom. Although, I admit I don't find his character all that interesting. Maybe if they had cast a different actor with more charisma, I might care.

 

On one hand, I see your point about the Joe/Iris dynamic, but sometimes that is how it goes in families. Some family members give while others take. Sometimes its the parents who let their kids walk all over them or the kids who let their parents control them or treat them unfairly but still respect their wishes and make compromises to appease them. It can be because they don't know how to stand up for themselves, or just out of love. There is a concept of the five love languages proposed by Gary Chapman. While I don't agree with his religious beliefs or all of his ideas, he makes some valid points. Certain people need specific things to feel loved and learning what those are can really help in a relationship. It also helps to know how to pick your battles-- know when you should compromise or when you should hold your ground. You have to decide if its worth hurting or upsetting the other person to act in a certain way. I think with Iris and Joe, Iris has found that it is just easier for her to cave because she always has and she loves him. He's found that she usually caves so he has gotten used to it. It maybe one-sided, but that is not an abnormal dynamic. It might not make it suck any less for Iris, but it is what it is.

 

I wish that I could bring myself to care about the whole Francine thing, but I can't. I wonder if she's going to die soon and if that is why Wally shows up.

[CabotCove]

WestAllen  maybe on hold but the support is not slowing down.

 

Best Couple - Semi-Finalists

http://canadagraphs.weebly.com/polls-and-awards-blog/best-of-tv-awards-2015-round-1-best-non-human-character-or-prop-couple-results

 

Barry Allen & Iris West "The Flash" 9267

Whoa I did not expect that many votes, WestAllen is a new force to reckon with (They even beat canon Olicity!). And Snowbarry is nowhere to be found. I hope the writers are taking notes.  They got a potential "epic" couple if done right.

Edited November 27, 2015 by WildcardC

[Ruby25]

Yeah, I really hope they're paying attention too. There IS a strong base out there that wants this comics canon couple no matter what, and it's not at all like the reaction to Oliver/Laurel, so they need to take note of that, if they're even considering tossing it.

[CabotCove]

Yeah WestAllen certainly seems like a success story, why fix what aint broken, there is  no reason to not stick with the original plan so far IMO. So I  dont really believe they have tossed them aside for good. If WA support is like this when they have been put on hold, I can only imagine it will grow stronger when they start moving  strongly towards that direction. 

 

 

There IS a strong base out there that wants this comics canon couple no matter what

 

True but a comic fanbase alone would  not be enough, the ship must have found strong support from the general TV viewership. 

Edited November 27, 2015 by WildcardC

[driedfruit]

I wonder if the writers/producers are worried about ratings slipping once Barry and Iris actually do get together. I know some shows got a lot of attention because of the UST between characters on some shows. IIRC, "Moonlighting" sort of tanked after David and Maddie finally hooked up. I don't know if that was because there was no longer the thrill of hoping for something and then it was anticlimactic, or if it was because the writers didn't know how to make the stories interesting anymore. And now I need to see if I can find episodes of that show online because I have not watched it in decades...

 

I doubt the producers are worried about Iris and Barry affecting the ratings one way or other. With how little promotion their relationship gets (and Iris for that matter) it's clear they play a very small part in marketing schemes.

 

I think the issue is the opposite actually. The writers are more than likely never going to shake up the STAR team dynamic or the father/son relationship, so the only thing left to play with is Barry's love life. Out of Barry's relationships, they must assume the one with Iris is the least significant to how well the show does and so the one that can be sacrificed in the meantime for the sake of mixing it up from one season to the next. 

 

Unfortunately for me, the STAR team and the father/son dynamics are the aspects I would've wanted to see shaken up and the Iris/Barry relationship as the rock.   

[Trini]

Unfortunately for me, the STAR team and the father/son dynamics are the aspects I would've wanted to see shaken up and the Iris/Barry relationship as the rock.   

 

Well, with Henry out of prison now, I thought they would have explored that change in dynamic -- but no. I remember that some of us speculated that they wouldn't know what to do with Henry if he got out, and it looks like we were right. And Jay Garrick as a mentor to Barry has been a bit of a letdown too. They did have him be helpful in the first few episodes but now he's disappeared too, now that Wells is here.

[Ruby25]

You know, I think if the show wanted to forget that Barry/Iris were ever a thing, as seems to be the case right now, they should have gone further with it in 1x15, and had them actually sleep together before time was erased.

 

Storywise, it'd be even more tragic for Barry and it could also explain his attitude towards her now- like it's just too painful for him to be around her or close to her or something.

 

Plus, even with zero hints on the screen this season, having something that big looming over them would be a more assured guarantee that they'd have to go back to it eventually, so I could forgive the big fat nothing we're getting at the moment.

[theacostov]

Since these are the same people who wrote season two arrow, I wouldn't be surprised if at some point he has to make a life or death decision between Patty and Iris and he picks Iris because that's who he truly loves. And they're trying to fool the general audience into thinking it will be Patty hence the lack of Westallen so that it's a *shock* when he picks Iris. Seems like something they would do as plot>character.

[driedfruit]

Are you talking about Shado/Sara being held at gunpoint? I don't remember that as Oliver choosing Sara, but more him freaking out thinking she was going to be killed in the second before the fake out. Maybe he'd have had the same reaction if the fake out was directed towards Shado.

 

Either way I hope not, I hate those scenarios. The Gotham take on it last season made Gordon look like a douche, even though I prefer him with Lee anyway. And on this show it seems like they've endeared Patty to a lot of people (though she annoys others) and having Barry choose Iris to Patty's detriment would direct a lot of hatred towards Iris, which is something the writers seem to want to avoid. 

[theacostov]

More a combo of Sara/Shado (in that a choice had to be made) and the whole 'one you love the most' thing with felicity that made him realise he loved her.

I just expect them to go for a big dramatic moment where there's a declaration of love either verbal or through an action for either Iris or Barry.

I do agree that I hope they don't do a Sara/Shado scenario though. But I don't trust these writers and like to be prepared and it does seem like Patty might die.

[driedfruit]

If they go there, I'd rather the choice is Joe vs. Patty.  

 

I really don't want Patty to die though, the comparisons to Gwen are annoying as is.

Edited November 29, 2015 by driedfruit

[phoenics]

This show has seen enough death - I don't think they need to kill Patty. She can just leave town for a better job.

I cannot handle anymore Barry manpain. I just can't. This is supposed to be the happy show! I know Arrow is trying to lighten up a bit, but sorry - that show chose the Dark Knight path, for better or worse. Stay dark. The Flash is meant to be sweetness and light! Please don't let them kill Patty - I cannot stand it.

Besides - it doesn't move the story at all if Barry shockingly "chooses" Iris in some moment of desperation. Because we still wouldn't have an Iris PoV. Even though I'm pretty sure this is a hopeless hope, I keep hoping and wishing that when Wally comes onboard, eventually he will be the one to notice Iris' feelings for Barry and needle her on that so we can finally get a PoV. And we can hopefully see Iris trying to bury how she feels because Barry is "happy". And then eventually some resolution there. But no - having Patty die and any of that blame go to Iris is a non-starter. Actually having Patty die so we can get more Barry manpain is a non-starter.

Iris PoV first.

[zannej]

I don't think it would ever be shocking for Barry to choose Iris over Patty in a life or death situation. He's known Iris a lot longer and Joe would kill him if he let Iris die. So, it wouldn't be just his feelings on the line. Plus, Barry is so fast that it would be very difficult for them to put him in a situation where he wouldn't have time to save them both. The whole having to choose thing is overplayed anyway.

 

I'm hoping that Patty either finds someone else or she decides she doesn't need to put up with the lies from Barry and moves on.

 

While it would be nice to get some PoV from Iris, I don't know if it will be happening. I think the attitude of the writers is that she's just supporting cast while Barry is the lead.

[Trini]

Well, Iris is supporting (everyone else is, too) and Barry is the lead; HOWEVER, that in itself shouldn't be detrimental to Iris as a character, or the Iris/Barry relationship. I've seen "one true pairings" on the other shows handle the buildup of the main romantic relationship much better, even when the supporting half of the couple was much less important (or even less present) to the lead and to the show in general.

 

But yes, we still need to know Iris' feelings towards Barry. (From her own mouth, thank you!) We know she does care for him deeply as a friend, at least; and she chose Eddie over him twice. Too bad they completely erased that timeline where she did confess her feelings of love(?); and now feel no need to bring them up again.

 

...  And we can hopefully see Iris trying to bury how she feels because Barry is "happy". And then eventually some resolution there....

 

She could confide in Caitlyn, Linda, Joe, maybe even her mother if they had actually let them have a relationship. It's actually weird that we haven't heard her comment on Barry and Patty; we knew how she felt about Felicity and Linda (and Becky Coooper) last season.

[SevenStars]

The believe that the lead should be the only character to get a pov is what I've seen lead to the down fall of many shows.

A lot people don't watch a show because of the lead, they watch for the supporting characters. When they get nothing for the supporting character, they get frustrated and stop watching.

Also, only having the lead pov get tiresome and boring because there are only so many ways the writers can write the same pov over and over again in a 22-24 season. For example, I used to love Barry/Joe's emotional scenes. I viewed them as a special treat. Now, I have to stop myself from FF because they have shown them so many times.

So imo, the lead should always get a pov but giving the supporting characters pov is a great and easy way for the writes to keep things interesting.

Edited November 29, 2015 by SevenStars

[phoenics]

We know Barry is the lead of this show. But CP/Iris is actually the lead actress - and she shouldn't be shoved to the side and sidelined, marginalized and muted with no PoV. That's literally a crime.

[zannej]

Oh, I agree that just because Barry is the lead and Iris is a supporting character is not an excuse for sidelining her. and yeah, she is a lead actress, but I get the impression that since she isn't the title character, the writers may feel justified in doing so. I would love to know how she feels about the Barry and Patty dynamic (and not just what she says to placate Barry because she may feel its unfair to interfere after she told him to back off last season). I would also like to know how Barry feels about her, because we really haven't been getting much on that lately. Maybe he can see someone flirting with her and realize he doesn't like it and that he's still interested in her. At least they did have her do some useful things instead of just having her completely in the background (which is what another show did with my favorite character on an ensemble where there isn't supposed to be one main character).

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

So, if I was interpreting what was shown tonight right, Patty still does not know that Barry is the Flash and everyone is playing her for the fool.  Not only that, but her not knowing, makes her an unwitting target for Zoom, and she won't have the slightest clue why.

 

And of course, show-reasoning states that Caitlin almost spills the beans but can't go all out because of situation. 

 

But makes sense to not clue Patty in - the woman he supposedly is nearly in love with - when everyone else in CC and SC knows his secret.  *eye-rolling facepalm*

[Trini]

I don't mind that Patty doesn't know. I can understand if Barry doesn't want to reveal that info quickly. I actually like that there's someone who doesn't know -- because soooo many people know. I just have a feeling that if she does find out they might literally kill her off, and I'd rather they didn't.

[phoenics]

I will be so mad if they kill her off.

I'd rather she just left town once she found out the truth. Or if they do kill her off, I hope it goes the way of Mason on Lois & Clark - minimal man-pain.

I'm so disappointed in this show this season.