Relationships: Speed Dating

[driedfruit]

I'm assuming they haven't made up their mind about what they're gonna do about her mother, otherwise giving no details about her, not even whether or not she's dead, seems excessive.

[peachmangosteen]

I agree. I have a theory that the writers are quite lazy and them not even having decided what to do about Iris' mom fits with that.

Edited March 24, 2015 by peachmangosteen

[Actionmage]

Fraiser.   Roseanne.  The Andy Griffith Show. Seinfeld.  Cagney & Lacey. Murder, She Wrote.  Backstrom. House.

 

Shows named for a lead character, yet the supporting casts were, largely, in the same fields as the lead.

 

If the classic Andy Griffith Show was only about Andy, Opie, Aunt Bea and Barney, I doubt it would have lasted close to as long as it did. Audiences felt like they could actually find Mayberry if they visited North Carolina.  Cops work in pairs/teams and their skill sets overlap, as do the diagnosticians of House, regardless of their actual specialty. Seinfeld was named for Jerry, but Elaine, George and Kramer became pretty popular/known. Jessica Fletcher, not too differently from Andy Griffith, had a town that was populated by regulars; as a mystery writer, the sheriff and local GP were more knowledgeable, but overlapped Jessica in various skills.

 

That Caitlin and Cisco overlap some areas with Barry, as does Wells, doesn't strike me as a reason the Flash Mob needs to go. Barry is the star and the reason we're here. That doesn't, imo, mean that Caitlin and Cisco are unnecessary. They don't think in the manner that Barry does due to their experiences.  Something could ping a thought chain in Cisco that leads to something cool. Barry looks at the end result and, in trying to understand in his mind, pings in a different way and a way that sticks with Barry easier/differently. 

 

That's what makes scenes like the Wells/Cisco/Joe "Big Science for Dummies" scene worked. Joe didn't have to have the minutae, but he got the bigger strokes.  Joe may suggest something down the line, which may be initially ignored, because he doesn't know what isn't possible. That's why the Flash Mob is good TV-- they are sounding boards as well as friends and colleagues. Otherwise, it's a non-comical Sheldon Cooper explaining everything for the audience. 

 

When the SyFy show Alphas had a speedster literally running between raindrops, I thought, " Now we can do The Flash."  I'm glad we have this show.

 

I am excited for tonight!

 

PS: Can S. Epatha Merkerson be Iris' mom? 

Edited March 24, 2015 by Actionmage

[CabotCove]

I wouldn't consider Flash an ensemble right now. If you compare how rich Laurel's, Diggs', Thea's, Moira's, etc. lives were even back in the first season of Arrow to how little consideration any of the secondaries over at Flash get, you'll see the difference.

 

I wouldnt say Arrow was that much ensemble-like in season 1, IMO Flash is doing just as much if not more with its supporting characters. Almost all the secondary characters have gotten  centric episode/s this early in its run. There is more interaction and a relationship between those who know Barry's secret (Joe, Team Flash) and those who dont (Iris, Eddie etc).

Edited March 25, 2015 by Conell

[In2You]

I wouldnt say Arrow was that much ensemble-like in season 1, IMO Flash is doing just as much if not more with its supporting characters. Almost all the secondary characters have gotten  centric episode/s this early in its run. There is more interaction and a relationship between those who know Barry's secret (Joe, Team Flash) and those who dont (Iris, Eddie etc).

Really what was Joe's centric episode? What was Iris's centric episode? What was Well's centric episode? 

[Shanna]

What was Caitlin's episode? Or are we counting stuff that was actually about Ronnie?

I don't care about characters being given their own episode, but I feel like the arrow jut felt more layered.

[Oscirus]

I guess technically, Iris's episode was the Flash is Born since she got to narrate that one and she was the person to put the finishing touches on Tony.  Even that's stretching it. But yea, nobody else other then Barry has had anything even remotely resembling a centric episode.

[FurryFury]

I don't care about characters being given their own episode, but I feel like the arrow jut felt more layered.

 

I'd say Arrow was overall better (at least in late s1/s2). Guggenheim and Kreisberg seem to be much better together than they are apart - instead of one good show we get two lackluster.

 

I wouldnt say Arrow was that much ensemble-like in season 1, IMO Flash is doing just as much if not more with its supporting characters.

 

That's just not true. Not only is the writing for The Flash cast worse (including Barry, imho), but even in terms of screentime, arcs and character development, Arrow s1 placed much more focus on its supporting characters.

Edited March 27, 2015 by FurryFury

[CabotCove]

Really what was Joe's centric episode? What was Iris's centric episode? What was Well's centric episode?

 

 

 

Thats why I said ALMOST, and yes Well has had a centric episode or two, one top of my head is when a metahuman broke into his house, Hartley I think. I cant remember much about Iris, could be the Simon Stagg episode.

 

That's just not true. Not only is the writing for The Flash cast worse (including Barry, imho), but even in terms of screentime, arcs and character development, Arrow s1 placed much more focus on its supporting characters.

 

I agree to disagree there.

 

I guess technically, Iris's episode was the Flash is Born since she got to narrate that one and she was the person to put the finishing touches on Tony.

 

 

Yeah likely that one

Edited March 28, 2015 by Conell

[In2You]

I wouldn't call the Pied Piper episode a Well's centric episode. A centric episode would be us seeing alot more of his pov and some flashes to his past.

 

Iris did not have a centric episode. That episode was mostly about Barry overcoming his childhood fear.

[Trini]

It was nice to get another Iris/Flash scene. I guess we better enjoy the flirtiness now, since that'll probably be gone once Iris knows (and she better know soon!).

"Sometimes, I don't know why I even wear a mask with you." -- Aww!

[Trini]

So now secrets and feeling are finally out in the open, how do you think they'll handle the Barry-Iris-Eddie triangle? At the moment, I'm most concerned about the Eddie side, since Eobard revealed the West-Allen marriage.

 

If Eddie believes him -- I think they can go two ways with this;1) Eddie breaks up with Iris, an easy out; or 2) Eddie realizes the future isn't set and fights for Iris. I might slightly prefer option #2, but these writers are horrible at romantic relationships (and women in general), so I'd rather they didn't try.

 

I actually think this is the kind of show where it wouldn't necessarily be a hindrance to just let Barry and Iris be together as a couple. You know, without all the on-and-off back and forth stuff, as hard as that seems to be for most TV writers to imagine. But they could easily work together as partners in some way, and be happy together and not necessarily be boring either.

 

I've just never believed that allowing a show's main couple to be together has to mean they're boring. If people like both characters on their own, there's no reason they wouldn't be likable together- now Iris and Eddie on the other hand? That's a boring couple, but that's because Eddie's name might as well be Cardboard Cutout Man, for how incredibly dull he is.

 

If Eddie is dull, it's because they've only allowed him to be a placeholder love interest for Iris, but everything else I agree. They clearly want to put Barry and Iris together, so just do it. I'd love to see a Lois & Clark-type dynamic on the show.

[FurryFury]

If Eddie believes him -- I think they can go two ways with this;1) Eddie breaks up with Iris, an easy out; or 2) Eddie realizes the future isn't set and fights for Iris. I might slightly prefer option #2, but these writers are horrible at romantic relationships (and women in general), so I'd rather they didn't try.

 

I'd rather they'd dropped all romances for good. WestAllen has been so forced this season it makes me want to drop the show. Seriously, even Lauriver had a smaller role (or maybe I've already forgotten). I mean geez, slow down, why make it so important? Why can't you give your characters room to breathe, to develop outside of it? I'm really wary of any romance getting the "OTP treatment" right out of the bat, in season 1. Daredevil got it and didn't force anything between Matt and Karen, and I really appreciated that. Arrow misfired with Laurel and only started to go down the Olicity road when it's become clear the majority of the audience bought it (I didn't, but was nowhere as bad as Barry/Iris).

 

And the worst victims of this story are Iris and Eddie. Iris, because she's thrust in the middle of a love triangle, which usually makes the central character look not good - plus, she's only defined by her role as Barry's love interest. Not as his best friend, as it should have been, or an inquisitive reporter, or anybody else. Just a love interest. As for Eddie, holy shit, they really are going to turn him into a villain! The role meant for Tommy on Arrow that they've thankfully decided against at the last minute. I do feel like Eddie's been treating her better than Barry (he didn't lie to her for as long, plus he really felt bad about it and partially fessed up after only 2 episodes), plus there's the whole "rooting for the underdog" thing, I can't help it. Mostly, Eddie is a background character so I can forgive it if his romance with Iris isn't developed. Barry isn't, but I see no real reason to root for them getting together. Actually, I don't see any reason to root for Barry getting together with anyone on this show.

[Sakura12]

I agree, I think they should stick to focusing on the friendships on this show. I would like to see Barry and Iris as real friends to each other, none of this forced meant to be crap. I want to see more Cisco/Caitlin bonding, see Barry actually be friends with Cisco/Caitlin and see a developing friendship between Iris and Caitlin/Cisco. 

[phoenics]

I'd rather they'd dropped all romances for good. WestAllen has been so forced this season it makes me want to drop the show. Seriously, even Lauriver had a smaller role (or maybe I've already forgotten). I mean geez, slow down, why make it so important? Why can't you give your characters room to breathe, to develop outside of it? I'm really wary of any romance getting the "OTP treatment" right out of the bat, in season 1. Daredevil got it and didn't force anything between Matt and Karen, and I really appreciated that. Arrow misfired with Laurel and only started to go down the Olicity road when it's become clear the majority of the audience bought it (I didn't, but was nowhere as bad as Barry/Iris).

 

And the worst victims of this story are Iris and Eddie. Iris, because she's thrust in the middle of a love triangle, which usually makes the central character look not good - plus, she's only defined by her role as Barry's love interest. Not as his best friend, as it should have been, or an inquisitive reporter, or anybody else. Just a love interest. As for Eddie, holy shit, they really are going to turn him into a villain! The role meant for Tommy on Arrow that they've thankfully decided against at the last minute. I do feel like Eddie's been treating her better than Barry (he didn't lie to her for as long, plus he really felt bad about it and partially fessed up after only 2 episodes), plus there's the whole "rooting for the underdog" thing, I can't help it. Mostly, Eddie is a background character so I can forgive it if his romance with Iris isn't developed. Barry isn't, but I see no real reason to root for them getting together. Actually, I don't see any reason to root for Barry getting together with anyone on this show.

 

 

I agree, I think they should stick to focusing on the friendships on this show. I would like to see Barry and Iris as real friends to each other, none of this forced meant to be crap. I want to see more Cisco/Caitlin bonding, see Barry actually be friends with Cisco/Caitlin and see a developing friendship between Iris and Caitlin/Cisco.

 

First, I totally agree that Iris could use more fleshing out (even though we've seen a lot early on, I'd like to see her reporting fleshed out more and her backstory with her mom).  So I'd love to see more of her.  I'd also like to see Eddie fleshed out too - I don't want him evil - I'm kinda hoping for an anti-hero story with him maybe?  I dunno... though he is kinda boring as a good guy... but man did I feel bad for him when Wells spilled all that tea about Iris and Barry.

 

I would love to see more friendships developing.  Especially between Iris and Barry, since that's been damaged. We've mostly seen Caitlin/Cisco/Barry bonding all freaking season - can we actually see the friendship between him and Iris that the show keeps telling me is there?  During all of the lies, I honestly lost track of it.  Still kinda angry about that.

 

Having said that, they can't drop the Barry-Iris dynamic from the show.  And there is an actual Flash Mythology reason why.  Barry and Iris are connected and their connection is WHY Flash is as powerful as he is.  Point blank period.  I've seen quite a few comments like this and some pleas for romance to be dropped, etc,.  While I understand the sentiment, the sentiment doesn't work for THIS show if you're going to tell a faithful rendition of The Flash.  There is no flash without his lightning rod, Iris.  Not really.

 

Also - the show has been trying to express that all season.  The episode where Wells is trying to understand how to make Flash faster and he thinks that Flash needs to just clinically do things to make himself faster and he needs to leave the emotional things behind?  The show is showing us that The Flash actually gets his powers from his emotions and from his need to protect the ones he loves.  And well, he loves Iris the most.  Hence she's the lightning rod for him and she actually makes him a better speedster.

 

Let me list some examples for those who (mistakenly, imo) believe that this is forced:

• Barry achieves supersonic punch baby yeah because he's trying to save Iris
• Barry gets his powers back because he's 1) trying to save Wells, and 2) trying to save Iris and Joe
• Barry kisses Iris and freaking reverses time
• Barry is able to escape Grodd's control because of Iris and focusing on Iris and his feelings for her.

This isn't forced - the show has been dropping this all along for those paying attention.  The show is extremely clear on this:  Barry's power comes from emotion and using that emotion to access the speed force.  "Friendship" alone isn't enough to get him to the next level.  His love for Iris simply is.

 

Dropping that would mean dropping half of the Flash mythos they've been building all season and that is the crux of the power coming from the speedsters.  Iris is actually the reason why Barry is the most powerful and fastest speedster.

 

I mean - the show could drop all of this though and just do a run of the mill Flash show that doesn't delve into time travel and the speed force, but obviously they haven't chosen to do that since they've already done time travel.  Thus, I guess we have a choice (well, not really):  either we accept time travel and everything that comes with it (the speed force AND Iris West as the lightning rod), or we don't have any of that and get the failed ABC Flash show that barely made it one season.

 

Like it or not, the lightning rod concept as being absolutely necessary to pull speedsters out of the Flash force is a part of the Flash mythology.  And the lightning rod has to be an extreme grounding force in terms of emotion - the only person who fits that bill for Barry is Iris.  That's why (imo) the show brought back David Nutter to do the last 2 episodes - this is one of his specialties - he did a similar concept of "connection" between characters on Roswell (Max and Liz) and he's damn good at it.

 

There is a comic for the Wally West Flash where he's actually afraid to use the speed force (this is the only way to do time travel for speedsters) because he doesn't have a lightning rod to pull himself back.  He actually laments this and envies Barry for having Iris as that grounding force.

 

Now, I am sure there are those who just don't like romance and that it isn't just that some don't like Iris for Barry (I'm sure they exist, but I'm trying to steer clear of that in this discussion and only speak to the idea of romance on this show), but when the show decided to go the Speed Force route and decided to try to do a really close and faithful adaptation of The Flash, romance became part of the package.

 

I guess when they do a Batman show, they could totally do it without "long term" romance, because Bats doesn't really have that.  The Flash?  Not so much.

Edited May 8, 2015 by phoenics

[FurryFury]

Now, I am sure there are those who just don't like romance and that it isn't just that some don't like Iris for Barry

 

I like romance in theory. I don't mind shipping. I just feel like in this show, it's written really, really badly.

Also: I don't mind Iris for Barry, I mind Barry for Iris. She can do better.

 

Never read the comics, don't care about faithful adaptation or no. The show should stand alone. Maybe in the comics, the romance is written better, but what I see on-screen is not. And I can't even ignore it because there's been SO MUCH of it lately.

Edited May 7, 2015 by FurryFury

[Sakura12]

I don't mind romance on shows. I'm no longer an obsessive shipper, but I do like certain ships (Jo/Henry on Forever, LivWell (iZombie), DylEmma (Bates Motel) to name a few). They have to be written well and give me a reason to root for them. Because a comic book I haven't read says so is not a reason. 

 

Barry has treated Iris like crap all season. I don't want her to be stuck with him just because he's the hero. She can be his lightening rod as his best friend. They do have great friendship/sibling chemistry. I just don't buy them as great loves from what I've seen on screen. Since Arrow's basically a faithful retelling of Batman I don't expect the Flash to copy the comic book verbatim either. 

[phoenics]

I like romance in theory. I don't mind shipping. I just feel like in this show, it's written really, really badly.

Also: I don't mind Iris for Barry, I mind Barry for Iris. She can do better.

 

Never read the comics, don't care about faithful adaptation or no. The show should stand alone. Maybe in the comics, the romance is written better, but what I see on-screen is not. And I can't even ignore it because there's been SO MUCH of it lately.

 

Then maybe the answer is for them to write it better - because as it is, they cannot drop it. They've already laid the groundwork in the show as it is for it being a necessity. That was the whole point of my post.  They've already established that in the "mythology bible" on the show, as evidenced by the episode where Barry lost his powers and then the time travel (there are others - see my post above for more examples).

 

So I can agree that it could be written better - but honestly I think it's been better than most - my only major issue with it has been that Iris hasn't been given enough of a PoV. One episode doesn't make up for that, so I agree they could do more - hopefully they will.

[phoenics]

I don't mind romance on shows. I'm no longer an obsessive shipper, but I do like certain ships (Jo/Henry on Forever, LivWell (iZombie), DylEmma (Bates Motel) to name a few). They have to be written well and give me a reason to root for them. Because a comic book I haven't read says so is not a reason.

I think you miss my point. I'm saying the show has already started dipping into the lightning rod and flash mythology. They've been doing it all season - so it's not a "do it cause it's in the comics!" reasoning. It's simply that they've already done it - some just haven't noticed or think it's only about romance when its not.

I think - hope - that the show is going to finally be more explicit about this - but given that they were explicit in the episode where Harrison is telling Gideon that the key to Barry's speed is actually in his relationships, well...

The show has been doing this - maybe it needs to spell it out for fans who don't know. Like in the episode where Harrison talks BArrry through the speed force - that's not the first time Barry has accessed it - it's just the first time the show has explicitly stated that's what it was. Just like now with Iris - Barry broke the time barrier because of his love for her and his heart swelling three sizes (lol), and now they just showed Iris being the lightning rod with Grodd... maybe they need to completely spell that out with Harrison for some fans to "get it".

 

Barry has treated Iris like crap all season. I don't want her to be stuck with him just because he's the hero.

Now this is reasonable and I agree that he's not been the best - although I do NOT agree that he's been treating her like crap all season... that's a stretch. I do wish he hadn't lied to her though. That's crappy.

 

She can be his lightening rod as his best friend.

No she can't. Otherwise, anyone would do and that's NOT the concept of the lightning rod. Otherwise, Wally West wouldn't have been lamenting (pre-Linda) that he didn't have one and being afraid to access the speed force for a dangerous mission that needed to happen to save the world.

 

They do have great friendship/sibling chemistry. I just don't buy them as great loves from what I've seen on screen.

Just because you don't doesn't mean others don't see it. I've seen here and on the Grodd thread some say they don't see chemistry or they only saw it just now or they only saw it with Flash/Iris and I've always thought that this was done on purpose. I said it some number of threads back, but I think the show deliberately had Iris/Barry have different chemistry as 1) best friends 2) Flash/Iris and then now as Barry/Iris after the truth is out.

That's because Barry can't fully be who he is and as awesome as he can be as The Flash without Iris and without there being nothing but the truth between them. Even lately, Barry seems to have gotten far more confident the surer he is about Iris' feelings - the guy on the roof at the end of 1x21 is not the same as the guy in the West living room earlier in the season. The first guy assumed she didn't feel the same way and bolted before she could respond. The second guy knows she feels something for him and so he's much more bold with her now than he has been in the past... he also seemed more mature too.

I'm not saying they should jump each others' bones, but I am saying that I think the different levels of chemistry was done on purpose by the show.

 

Since Arrow's basically a faithful retelling of Batman I don't expect the Flash to copy the comic book verbatim either.

Except the Flash is working pretty hard to be a really faithful adaptation. Also, Geoff Johns (who writes The Flash comics) said that this tv show would be the most faithful adaptation of the Flash. So - I think that's exactly what it will be.

Edited May 7, 2015 by phoenics

[Sakura12]

I never said everyone doesn't see the chemistry. I don't, and that's what matters to me for shipping a couple. I know Barry and Iris will be together because they are hitting me over the head with it. So I didn't miss anything and I don't want it spelled out even more. There is enough of it going on right now. I get they are the comic canon couple. It's just not working for me on this show, the actors are not bringing the grand romance chemistry in my eyes. Candice is trying really hard, I see that but it's Grant that is just not meeting her imo. I'm not going force myself to ship them because the comic books says they are together, I need to see it on screen with the actors. 

 

Having said that I don't care if they get together I just don't want other characters ruined so they can get together. 

[Trini]

 

Let me list some examples for those who (mistakenly, imo) believe that this is forced:

 

But besides that, I don't think Barry/Iris is "forced" because I think the two actors do have chemistry and both characters can work as a couple; However, I do think that the writers have been going at it wrong most of the time. So yeah, we need better writing here. (Which I think most of us have been saying from the start.)

[phoenics]

But besides that, I don't think Barry/Iris is "forced" because I think the two actors do have chemistry and both characters can work as a couple; However, I do think that the writers have been going at it wrong most of the time. So yeah, we need better writing here. (Which I think most of us have been saying from the start.)

I agree that we need better writing.

I also think that Barry/Iris have wonderful chemistry - we just haven't seen it coming from both of them except when Barry is The Flash and even then, he's holding back a little.

[FurryFury]

BTW, I don't understand why these examples prove this romance isn't forced. In fact they prove the opposite. The show has beaten us over the head with Iris/Barry way too many times. It's off-putting. Why is it so hard to be more subtle?

Edited May 7, 2015 by FurryFury

[phoenics]

BTW, I don't understand why these examples prove this romance isn't forced. In fact they prove the opposite. The show has beaten us over the head with Iris/Barry way too many times. It's off-putting. Why is it so hard to be more subtle?

I think the "forced" "subtle" thing is in the eye of the beholder.

Also - I think we were talking about two different things - I was speaking of all of the Iris/lightning rod/speed force/Barry stuff as not being forced, as it's been in the writing since day one.

But even with the romance part of that, I just don't agree that it's forced, while you believe that it is. I think that maybe you were looking for a different love story than the one you got and that's fair - but it doesn't mean everyone feels that way.

I've seen forced pairings and I just don't see Barry/Iris that way. In fact, I'd say they've been the opposite. Lois and Clark was forced then, because Clark was pining for Lois from day one and that was sometimes painful to watch (talking about Lois & Clark the tv show, not Lois and Clark on Smallville). It actually got much better after his feelings were out in the open and then it was more organic (but that was season 2).

Honestly - not every romance has to be written like Olicity (slow burn apparently if you buy that) to be a valid couple that isn't "forced". Iris and Barry are a different situation - I think it's an interesting study on why fandoms so easily accept pairings where the girl pines for the guy than vice versa.

Edited May 8, 2015 by phoenics

[Grace19]

I think there is a reason the show is going hard with this, I think I came across a quote by one of the actors or producers, who said that they dont want to waste too much time on getting the couple together so the story can move on to other things, maybe they will do that as early as season 2 or 3. If they do that, then I'll applaud them because they would have broken a lot of tropes about comic related tv shows. they let the love interest find out in season 1, the love interest is not a damsel in distress, she is tough and helps save herself every time, she joins the team in the first season, so if they add this by not wasting time to get Barry and iris together and focus on other stories it will be great imho.

[FurryFury]

I think that maybe you were looking for a different love story than the one you got and that's fair - but it doesn't mean everyone feels that way.

 

I never said everyone does or should. I wasn't really looking for any love stories here - but the one I see feel very overemphasized to me, especially considering that it's not a romance genre show and it was never sold as one. Too much, too fast, too soon. And too badly written.

 

Iris and Barry are a different situation - I think it's an interesting study on why fandoms so easily accept pairings where the girl pines for the guy than vice versa.

 

I can't stand pining in general, but if I had to choose, I'd choose a guy pining over girl. I didn't mind the set-up here (other than I'm not sure why it was necessary to make them adopted siblings, it doesn't squick me, but I know many people have a problem with it), I mind the realization. That the supposed friendship was all tell and no show, that he lied her for a whole season, that they simply don't have a dynamic and chemistry that can compensate for the failures of the writing...

[Grace19]

I dont think they are forced too, In my opinion those two actors sold their connection flawlessly from episode one. Its hard to full off best friends on screen when the audience didnt see the origin of the friendship, but Grant and Candice were able to do it in their first sceen together. whether people wanted to see them as a couple or not, in the first 9 episodes I saw a lot of people buy them as friends until the writers started messing up by not giving Iris a pov. but I am optimistic they want to rectify that now. I do agree that the relationship between Iris and Barry needs repairing and the both of them need more growing up to do, but thats what life is all about, we fight , grow apart and come back together better than before. I hope season 2 will be about them repairing their friendship and 3 about them getting together romantically, come on writers dont waste the beautiful chemistry between these two.

[phoenics]

I never said everyone does or should. I wasn't really looking for any love stories here - but the one I see feel very overemphasized to me, especially considering that it's not a romance genre show and it was never sold as one. Too much, too fast, too soon. And too badly written.

I think we agree that there are things that could be written better - but I disagree that this isn't a romance genre show. Comics - most of them - do focus on romance - that was part of an effort to grow beyond just a male base of buyers. Plus, the show has been playing up the Barry/Iris thing since before the show even aired - so clearly they were billing the Westallen romance as a big part of the show.

I can't stand pining in general, but if I had to choose, I'd choose a guy pining over girl. I didn't mind the set-up here (other than I'm not sure why it was necessary to make them adopted siblings, it doesn't squick me, but I know many people have a problem with it), I mind the realization. That the supposed friendship was all tell and no show, that he lied her for a whole season, that they simply don't have a dynamic and chemistry that can compensate for the failures of the writing...

Disagree with everything except that he lied to her for a whole season.

The first 10-12 episodes of the season had Barry and Iris doing something together as friends - no tell, it was all show. Nearly every episode. Iris taking Barry to the particle accelerator thing. Iris and Barry at the movies. Iris and Barry bonding over coffee. Iris and Barry talking about her blog. Iris and Barry flashbacks. Iris and Barry at the Stagg thing. Joe breaking Barry's mug and Barry going, "Hey - I loved that mug" and then Iris coming in after Barry was gone and going, "Oh Barry loved that mug!". Iris giving almost the EXACT same narration as Barry gave about "believe in the impossible". Iris having her blog BECAUSE she believed in Barry when no one else would and she wanted to show him he was right - and then that growing into being something she did to help other people. Barry and Iris both loving that bowling alley.

In my opinion, the show has been about showing their friendship in the first half of the season... and then the second half has been about showing how damaging Barry's lie was to their friendship... I think the examples I provided above prove this.

And about their chemistry - when they are just Barry and Iris (before he told her about his feelings), clearly Barry loved her but she was oblivious. Then when he was The Flash and she was Iris - man that chemistry was off the charts and I got goosebumps from that rooftop scene. NOW that she knows EVERYTHING? That chemistry is definitely ramping up - I expect it to be full force soon once she stops being in denial about her feelings. So - just disagree with you there. But chemistry is in the eye of the beholder anyway.

[Trini]

I can see how a pairing can be seen as "forced"* if it's one the writers are interested in, but the viewer isn't. (Just thinking about another show I watch where two supporting characters keep getting these flirty scenes, but I think most viewers couldn't care less if they got together or not.) That's how I feel the 'SnowBarry' teasing.

 

 

*not really the word I'd use

[ruby24]

I'd love to see a Lois and Clark type dynamic! That's actually a very good example, because on that show once they got together, they were together, and she knew everything, and they were still a great couple.

 

I think these guys do have chemistry btw, they're both adorable and I could very easily see them a happy couple, and the show goes on to other stories, using them as the permanent anchor. I would not mind seeing that at all, because it would be different from the typical, predictable, on and off stuff we've seen way too many times on every other show.

[bettername2come]

I think Barry and Iris have great chemistry, and I'm not opposed to "meant to be" pairings as long as they back it up with chemistry and story. I think now that everything's out in the open, they'll be better, because the weak writing point for me has always been the forced angst. It's unnecessary and feels that way. I think once they're able to move on from the lie, there won't be anything to stop them. I don't think they should keep them apart for long. When they leave them alone and just let them be, they play it well. When they were having friendshippy scenes without the pining, they were adorable. When Barry actively flirted with her as The Flash, their chemistry sizzled. Pull her into the story, let them become a couple and combine both those aspects, and I think they'll make a great couple and a great team.

[ruby24]

Another thing I should mention is that the reason I SO love the Joe/Barry relationship is because it went in the complete opposite direction of what I expected in the beginning. They decided to have Joe as his father figure, be supportive and encouraging of his superpower, and actually work with him on everything, so that their relationship is actually one of the healthiest and most loving on the show. It's awesome, and such a change from all the angst about keeping secrets from people (thinking of Arrow), etc. that I was expecting.

 

They could easily do that with Iris once they got together. I think it would be great, maybe even work out better than what they're thinking (if in fact, what they're thinking is that having the main couple together would be boring- I assume that's probably the case, but hopefully not, because that doesn't have to be true).

Edited May 7, 2015 by ruby24

[Xander]

I think there is a reason the show is going hard with this, I think I came across a quote by one of the actors or producers, who said that they dont want to waste too much time on getting the couple together so the story can move on to other things, maybe they will do that as early as season 2 or 3. If they do that, then I'll applaud them because they would have broken a lot of tropes about comic related tv shows. they let the love interest find out in season 1, the love interest is not a damsel in distress, she is tough and helps save herself every time, she joins the team in the first season, so if they add this by not wasting time to get Barry and iris together and focus on other stories it will be great imho.

I'm not opposed to them getting them together early. They could have written them much better if they planned to get them together early. And the love triangle is not even fun. 

Edited May 7, 2015 by Xander

[ruby24]

The love triangle sucks because Eddie is such a bland non-entity that it's very obvious he exists only to slow the inevitable Barry-Iris pairing. And I think it's been slowed enough, a whole season of this is plenty. Put them together and make them adorable partners.

 

Seriously, do we know a single thing about Eddie besides the fact that his name is Eddie? And he's a cop? I mean, even Tommy in the first season of Arrow was more of a person than this guy.

[phoenics]

I think the show could do a much better job with character development...

[Iamsweetdee]

The love triangle sucks because Eddie is such a bland non-entity that it's very obvious he exists only to slow the inevitable Barry-Iris pairing. And I think it's been slowed enough, a whole season of this is plenty. Put them together and make them adorable partners.

 

Seriously, do we know a single thing about Eddie besides the fact that his name is Eddie? And he's a cop? I mean, even Tommy in the first season of Arrow was more of a person than this guy.

Unlike Tommy, Eddie exists for more than a triangle, the show makes it quite obvious, IMO.

[phoenics]

Unlike Tommy, Eddie exists for more than a triangle, the show makes it quite obvious, IMO.

There are two directions they could go in with Eddie - one evil, one good... so I guess we'll see. I've heard a couple of theories that I think are cool.. one of them was really cool and didn't involve him becoming evil... but with these writers, I do think that's where they'll be going.

That kinda sucks.

Is it that hard to write a compelling character who is "good", yet not the hero?

Edited May 8, 2015 by phoenics

[SevenStars]

The love triangle sucks because Eddie is such a bland non-entity that it's very obvious he exists only to slow the inevitable Barry-Iris pairing. And I think it's been slowed enough, a whole season of this is plenty. Put them together and make them adorable partners.

 

Seriously, do we know a single thing about Eddie besides the fact that his name is Eddie? And he's a cop? I mean, even Tommy in the first season of Arrow was more of a person than this guy.

 

I think Eddie is not the main problem in the triangle. I think what makes the triangle bad is because we don't have Iris pov. It is through Iris that we should be learning about Eddie and seeing the reason as to why she stayed with him after Barry confessed his feelings for her. It is through her that we should have some emotional connection to that relationship that makes us want to root for it and understand why Iris is willing to move in with Eddie despite being conflicted or at least having some feelings for Barry. 

 

The writers not giving Iris a pov, not only short-change the West-Allen relationship but also Iris and Eddie's relationship. A triangle can't really be entertaining or interesting if only one character get a pov and the other two get nothing.

 

As for the Iris/Barry romance being blame for the characters being underdeveloped I disagree, the problem is not the romance.  The problem is the writers thinking that Iris purpose on the show is to be LI to Barry, therefore, they don't spend time on her character as a full character.  They are only interested in writing for Iris when it comes to West-Allen but not when it comes time for them to show us Iris outside of the relationship.

 

So the problem is not the romance, but the writers laziness in developing these characters because just like Iris, the writers are not really writing for Caitlin unless it has something to do with Ronnie (romance). They don't write for Joe unless it is somehow connected to Barry. Wells is okay in development because the writers seems to be slowly revealing/developing the character on-screen.  Cisco is the only one who seems to get some development outside of Barry or romance. 

 

Dropping the romance won't suddenly make the characters better develop because the romance is not what is stopping the show from developing the characters better since most of the characters are not being develop despite the fact that West-Allen have nothing to do with them. 

 

Just because some don't like the romance doesn't mean the romance is the problem. The problem comes from the writers being too lazy to develop the characters, which means that if the romance is drop, they will just add more actions and more cross-over to the show. So we will be left with shallow-under-develop characters fighting the villain of the week, without the romance. I wouldn't want that because I enjoy the little things the romance reveal about the characters.

 

I actually looked forward to West-Allen interacting because it seems like that is the only time that we learn something about Iris or Joe or even Eddie. It's not a lot but since the writers seems to not be willing to do much development of these characters or really give us an idea of them outside of Barry, I'm willing to take it for now.  I say for now because I know if this is the way the writers continue to do it, I will start resenting West-Allen relationship, it will be irrational but I can't help it. Just like JoexBarry were my OTP on this show from the first episode but now I'm starting to resent them because the writers are giving me nothing with JoexIris to balance it against. 

Edited May 8, 2015 by SevenStars

[Oscirus]

Seriously, even Lauriver had a smaller role (or maybe I've already forgotten).

 

That's basically because Lauriver was all about lust.

 

I do feel like Eddie's been treating her better than Barry (he didn't lie to her for as long, plus he really felt bad about it and partially fessed up after only 2 episodes), plus there's the whole "rooting for the underdog" thing, I can't help it.

 

I'm pretty much with you on this. I don't think the writers get that if everybody on the show is rooting for one couple and the other person involved is not despicable then it becomes easy to root for that person to get the girl.

 

 

although I do NOT agree that he's been treating her like crap all season... that's a stretch. I do wish he hadn't lied to her though. That's crappy.

 

Lying to her, using his secret identity persona to try to break up her relationship and spy on her to Joe. The fact that she can barely tell Barry anything without his trying to turn the conversation into something about either their relationship or her messed up relationship with Eddie. The fact that he admitted to doing nice things for her to try to get into a relationship with her.  If you were to change the names in this story and remove the superpowers, this would be a story about a girl and her stalker.

 

The biggest problem with the romantic part of this show is that this show is so busy doing crossovers with Arrow/ trying to set up the new show that they tend to ignore the relationship building due to time constraints. So all we're left with is a half-assed love triangle coupled with a main couple who have barely been built up as friends.  Every once in a while they'll knock it out of the park but for the most part, eh.

 

While for the most part, I was fine with last night's episode, holy crap did the ending of that first speech to Joe threaten to derail Iris's righteousness. Thankfully, Candice pulled that scene back from the precipice but wow...

[SevenStars]

 

Lying to her, using his secret identity persona to try to break up her relationship and spy on her to Joe. The fact that she can barely tell Barry anything without his trying to turn the conversation into something about either their relationship or her messed up relationship with Eddie. The fact that he admitted to doing nice things for her to try to get into a relationship with her.  If you were to change the names in this story and remove the superpowers, this would be a story about a girl and her stalker.

 

 

 

But I can also point out the times when he tried to support Iris relationship with Eddie because he believed it made her happy despite how painful it was for him. The time he denied his feelings to Iris because he wanted to keep her as his friend and not make it uncomfortable or awkward for her.  The times that he has try to be a good friend to her.  Him questioning/telling Joe that he was wrong not to go Eddie his blessing, despite how he feels about the situation. So it's not all just Barry being crapping to Iris.

 

Because of secrets ( being in love with her and being the flash), I think Barry did things that were crapping to Iris and because Barry is not perfect, there are times when he does things that are questionable in regard to Iris. 

 

Now that the secret is out, I'm going to see how it changes their dynamic and interaction with each other. I hope it means better writing but I don't want the writers to make this relationship perfect because it would be boring to me. I want them to keep it messy in a way that doesn't have the characters disrespecting each other or making me question their love for each other. So far the writers have not make me question their love for each other but they need to work on the respect part and not have Barry following Joe's lead in the regard to Iris. Joe is so over-protective of Iris that his actions to protect her border on/is disrespectful towards her. I hope the writers don't/stop going that route with Barry now that secret is out. 

Edited May 8, 2015 by SevenStars

[FurryFury]

At this point I just stay dump them together and focus on the stuff that's better written and enjoyable and doesn't make any of the characters look bad. I'm just so over romantic angst on this show. And overall, I want it to focus more on the supporting cast - flesh out Caitlin beyond Ronnie, give Cisco more to do because he's great and the actor seems pretty capable, develop Iris/Caitlin and Iris/Cisco (I think the latter could be an interesting friendship), bring in some recurring characters. Just grow beyond Barry's relationships with his family circle, I'm a bit tired of it all.

[SevenStars]

At this point I just stay dump them together and focus on the stuff that's better written and enjoyable and doesn't make any of the characters look bad. I'm just so over romantic angst on this show. And overall, I want it to focus more on the supporting cast - flesh out Caitlin beyond Ronnie, give Cisco more to do because he's great and the actor seems pretty capable, develop Iris/Caitlin and Iris/Cisco (I think the latter could be an interesting friendship), bring in some recurring characters. Just grow beyond Barry's relationships with his family circle, I'm a bit tired of it all.

 

I agree with almost everything you said except the bold parts:

 

 I find West-Allen relationship interesting and I don't really think that it makes the characters look bad. I think there are times when it reveal the flaws that the characters have, and also time when it reveals the goodness of the characters. Just like most story arc, it's not all perfect but it is also not all bad. So I don't want the writers to just put them together and be done with it. I want the characters to earn it, even if it means that I won't like or agree with everything they do in the process of earning their HEA.

 

 With that said, if you don't like West-Allen or don't think they have the chemistry to pull off this story, I can understand why you would want them to just put them together and be done with it. But it wouldn't help the characters look less bad or better develop, at least not to me, because I actually see West-Allen or any romantic relationship as part of developing a character because you learn things about characters base on their romantic interactions, that you might not have know without the romantic aspect of these characters. Whether it is good or bad, I don't really care as long as it gives me an idea of who the characters are by showing their flaws and perfection in that situation.

 

As for moving Barry beyond the family dynamic, I think one of the main problem with the characters not seeming to be develop like Joe/Iris and even Barry to a certain extend is because the writers have not really develop the relationship within Barry's family circle. We just get repetitive scenes/dialogues especially with Barry and Joe, no real development beyond that.  So I would want the writers to not move on from it but develop this dynamic and relationships so that they become less repetitive and more interesting. 

 

I really, really want the writers to develop and give Iris/Joe relationship focus because I think this could be an interesting arc for both Iris and Joe. I think that would be a great way to start developing these characters.

[FurryFury]

think there are times when it reveal the flaws that the characters have, and also time when it reveals the goodness of the characters.

 

The problem is these flaws aren't truly acknowledged and explored. Yes, Barry admitted he was wrong in keeping his secret, but he suffered almost not repercussions for it. And his behavior towards Iris really bugs me, I wouldn't go as far as to call him a stalker, but there's definitely an unhealthy element to it. Plus I really hated how he and Joe forced Eddie to lie to her, and this moment was glossed over.

Meanwhile, I'm really afraid that Eddie, a stand-up guy by all appearances, will become a villain simply because of this romance. It's really upsetting to me because he's by far the most likable person in this whole mess, even if his character hasn't been explored at all.

[Grace19]

I think the writers need to work on all the relationships in the show. With Iris' dialogue in the last episode echoing most of what we discuss on this board, I think the whey are taking corrections and they will all be written better in the following seasons, I hope.

I think the writers need to work on all the relationships in the show. With Iris dialogue in the last episode echoing most of what we discuss on this board, I think the they are taking corrections and they will all be written better in the following seasons, I hope.

Edited May 8, 2015 by Grace19

[SevenStars]

The problem is these flaws aren't truly acknowledged and explored. Yes, Barry admitted he was wrong in keeping his secret, but he suffered almost not repercussions for it. And his behavior towards Iris really bugs me, I wouldn't go as far as to call him a stalker, but there's definitely an unhealthy element to it. Plus I really hated how he and Joe forced Eddie to lie to her, and this moment was glossed over it.

 

 

I agree with you, I wish the writers wouldn't gloss over these things,but acknowledge and explored these things, because I think it would actually make the characters more interesting and add layers to them. But it's not the romance that is causing them not to do that because Barry/Joe/Team Flash have done a lot of things that the writers shouldn't gloss over but they act like it is nothing. I think the problem is because the writers want to put in questionable scenes and actions that require them taking those things seriously but they don't want to take them seriously because it would mean adding a darker layer to the show that they don't seems to want. They seems to be doing their best to keep things light even when they introduce dark themes in certain story-line or episode.  Some people are okay with it like that but like you, I wish they wouldn't introduce those themes if they are not willing to acknowledge and explore the consequence of those themes. 

 

As for them forcing Eddie to lie to Iris being gloss over, I'm not going to agree or disagree because until Eddie comes back we won't know exactly how they will deal with that aspect of the story. They couldn't really do that in the last episode because Eddie was not there to tell Iris that he knew the secret but keeping it from her was not his idea. That he was on the side that believe that she needed and deserved to know the answer. 

 

Meanwhile, I'm really afraid that Eddie, a stand-up guy by all appearances, will become a villain simply because of this romance. It's really upsetting to me because he's by far the most likable person in this whole mess, even if his character hasn't been explored at all.

 

 

Like you, I like Eddie, I don't like him more than Iris or Barry because the writers have not show me enough for me to truly be interesting in him. That is probably why he is like-able because unlike Barry, we are not exploring his flaws, and seeing so much of his character. Unlike Barry, he was willing to question Joe's desire to keep the secret from Iris because he doesn't have the type of loyalty, love and believe for Joe, like Barry. 

 

As for him becoming a villain, that will just be part of his character development if it happens, because good characters become villain in stories all the time for different reasons. Sometime it is because they lost the girl, sometime it is because their parents love someone more than they love them, sometime it is because they lost a promotion they believe they deserve. Just because Eddie might become bad as result of losing Iris doesn't make it a bad story telling or the fault of West-Allen relationship. Just like in real life, people we consider to be good all their lives turn bad because of something that happened and greatly impacted their thinking and feelings.

 

For Eddie, that might be because of the lose of the woman he loves and wanted to spend the rest of his life with, deciding to be with a man he calls friend, instead of him.  Or maybe he will turn bad because of Wells, by trying not to be as insignificant as Wells claim he was by being good. Instead to try to be someone important in the family line, he will start doing questionable things to be more significant until he can no longer see the line between good and evil like before. Either way, it will be actions having consequences  and since this is what think it means when telling a good story, I don't mind. 

 

I want this story to change the characters, either for good or bad, I want to see that their actions and interaction with each other have consequences. 

[FurryFury]

I love character development, but I love for it to be organic. Eddie becoming a villain because Iris chooses Barry over him would not only feel cliched (how many villains driven by failed romances to do we need, Flarrow?) but also having no set-up at all. If they wanted him to go down this road, they should have planted some hints and explored him a little bit more. As it is, his only purpose is being the 3rd wheel in a love triangle, which is frustrating on its own, but if he also gets motivated by a sudden bout of jealousy, that would really be too much.

[Grace19]

I want eddie to go down the villain path because it will make the character more interesting than being a typical good guy the writers have no intention of exploring. In the first episode, Iris said he keeps a scorecard, later he spoke to Barry about kids being mean to him in school, two episodes ago he assumed that the whole revers flash thing was about him that wells laughed at him and last episode he was really hurt when wells called his career uneventful and told him he didn't get the girl.Along with having mentioned to Barry that his relationship with Iris intimidates him. I believe they've been setting him up to be the villain and have been planting the seeds. he's last name is Thorne, and they have to show us how the centuries old rival started between the Thornes and the Allens. I think when he eventually go down this part, most of it will not be about loosing Iris, but about proving how relevant he is and how much he envies Barry. I think that will be interesting to watch.

[SevenStars]

I love character development, but I love for it to be organic. Eddie becoming a villain because Iris chooses Barry over him would not only feel cliched (how many villains driven by failed romances to do we need, Flarrow?) but also having no set-up at all. If they wanted him to go down this road, they should have planted some hints and explored him a little bit more. As it is, his only purpose is being the 3rd wheel in a love triangle, which is frustrating on its own, but if he also gets motivated by a sudden bout of jealousy, that would really be too much.

 

I agree that it is cliched which is why it is not something I want to happen but I think it wouldn't less organic. Most villains become villains without any real set-up, except that writers have something happen to them that suddenly motive them into going down a dark road.

 

I think so far there have not been any reason for Eddie to be show hints of turning a villain as result of losing Iris because the writers have not giving us a situation for that to be shown. The only hint we had that Eddie is not as controlling and perfect as we think, is when he punched Barry after finding out that Barry confessed his feelings to Iris. Or when Barry and Iris were flirty too much during their double dates,  he let Iris knows that he was not okay with their actions.

 

Eddie and Iris relationship have not really been challenge by an outsider for us to really know how Eddie would truly react if he believes that he was losing Iris. We the audience have seen that Barry is a real challenge to that relationship but Eddie doesn't know that. So he continues to be the perfect boyfriend because there is no reason for him not to be this perfect. This is why I can't yet assume that Eddie is just going to suddenly become a villain without the writers building some type of set-up for it.

 

Now that Wells have show Eddie the newspaper from the future and might have convinced Eddie that he is in danger of losing Iris, we might started seeing what type of person Eddie is when face with a challenge like this. Is he the type to fight fair and square to keep Iris or the type to do whatever it takes, fight as dirty as he can to keep her and make sure the future that Wells show him doesn't come to pass. That will be the hints and set-up for when/if he becomes a villain after losing Iris or not.  

[FurryFury]

Most villains become villains without any real set-up, except that writers have something happen to them that suddenly motive them into going down a dark road.

 

This is not how it should be. This is just bad writing. I don't like to expect bad writing when I watch something, but I know now to expect it here, unfortunately.

 

The only hint we had that Eddie is not as controlling and perfect as we think, is when he punched Barry after finding out that Barry confessed his feelings to Iris.

 

A perfectly natural reaction, I think. I actually liked it, because it showed us Eddie was a real person, not an automaton.

 

My problem is that I find the writing for this whole situation so bad and uninspired that I'll probably root for Eddie were he to become a villain just on principle. 

[SevenStars]

I want eddie to go down the villain path because it will make the character more interesting than being a typical good guy the writers have no intention of exploring. In the first episode, Iris said he keeps a scorecard, later he spoke to Barry about kids being mean to him in school, two episodes ago he assumed that the whole revers flash thing was about him that wells laughed at him and last episode he was really hurt when wells called his career uneventful and told him he didn't get the girl.Along with having mentioned to Barry that his relationship with Iris intimidates him. I believe they've been setting him up to be the villain and have been planting the seeds. he's last name is Thorne, and they have to show us how the centuries old rival started between the Thornes and the Allens. I think when he eventually go down this part, most of it will not be about loosing Iris, but about proving how relevant he is and how much he envies Barry. I think that will be interesting to watch.

 

I agree with everything you stated, especially the bold. I think if Eddie becomes a villain it won't be only about losing Iris but because of everything Wells told him about be insignificant that no one really remembers him, he is just a pawn in the fight between Barry and Wells and he loses the girl. 

 

Basically, Eddie won't want to go down in history as an insignificant loser compare to Barry and the future Thawnes, that will mean changing some things about himself right now and doing things that will make people notice him in the past and future.

 

So to me, Eddie becoming evil really will be Wells doing. Wells is the one that set the wheel in motion for that. Barry and Iris will just be part of the tools that Wells use to help change Eddie. 

Edited May 8, 2015 by SevenStars