Spoilers With Speculation

[Demented Daisy]

Interesting how Dean is at fault for everything. Last week there was a lot about it being Charlie`s choice and being a grown woman and plot stupidity and everything but apparently Dean being to blame overrides everything and every personal choice others made as well as the culpabiliity of the people who actually killed her.. 

 

 

Did I say that only Dean was at fault?  Nope, sure didn't.  But Dean is responsible -- as is Charlie, as is Sam, as is Cas, as are the Stynes.

 

Dean's hands are not clean in this mess, that's all I was saying.  And sooner or later, Dean is going to realize that and it's not going to be pretty.

[GirlyGeek]

I want to believe that Dean is pushing Sam away on purpose, because he knows something has flipped inside himself and knows where it's heading.

But that doesn't seem likely, lol.

Funnily enough, I don't see this as DemonDean at all. DemonDean wouldn't care enough, I don't think, to go out and seek revenge for Charlie. DemonDean didn't make plans like that from what we saw, he was kind of in the moment. Sure he went after Sam after Sam tried to cure him and locked him up, but he didn't seek him out.

Now maybe we just didn't see enough of DemonDean to know whether he would have made good on killing Cole if Cole had actually killed Sam...? Who knows

I also cannot stress enough how much I do not like this 'Dean is to blame for everything' crap. Cannot disagree more. Blame games are never ending and we could go all the way back to Mary and John (and further). It's pointless to do so. Every character makes choices.

Now my knee jerk reaction last week was to blame Sam for Charlie. That was emotional. But Charlie decided to help and Charlie decided to run off. The fault of her death lies with the Stynes. Dean and Sam may feel 'responsible' for her, and that's fine, but they aren't to blame.

Edited May 13, 2015 by GirlyGeek

[Aeryn13]

 

Did I say that only Dean was at fault?

 

You said Charlie`s death was on him. For me that is synonymous with he is the only one at fault, yes. Noone else. 

[Demented Daisy]

You said Charlie`s death was on him. For me that is synonymous with he is the only one at fault, yes. Noone else. 

 

That's your interpretation, but that's not what I said.  *shrug*  Regardless, I stand by what I did say.

 

I don't care who the audience blames -- I'm only pointing out that Dean will blame himself.  Maybe not tonight, maybe not next week, but it's part of Dean's character.  He blames himself for everything bad that happens.  I said it when Dean took on the Mark, I said it when Dean became a demon, I'm saying it again.

[DittyDotDot]

Funnily enough, I don't see this as DemonDean at all. DemonDean wouldn't care enough, I don't think, to go out and seek revenge for Charlie. DemonDean didn't make plans like that from what we saw, he was kind of in the moment. Sure he went after Sam after Sam tried to cure him and locked him up, but he didn't seek him out.

 

I don't see it as Demon Dean either. To me, this is how Dean reacts. I'm in no way saying Dean is nasty, but Dean often acts from an emotional place and then later, when he's had time to assess and calm down, he usually turns it around and takes it back. I in no way see this as sullying Dean, but showing that Dean's in a very bad place right now.

[GirlyGeek]

Oh Dean will definitely blame himself. In fact, it's almost out of character for him to blame Sam for anything, lol (much less say Sam should be the one dead... Yikes that's way off the reservation for Dean). Dean usually tries to absolve Sam of blame (and take it on himself) even when Sam is clearly to blame/responsible for something. The only time that I recall Dean not jumping in for Sam is beginning of Season 5, I think, after Sam killed Lillith and Bobby was railing on him about him ending the world. Dean just stood there.

What I do have a problem with, what I do blame Sam for a bit, is for the lying to Dean. IF Dean is so notDean or so dangerous, then Sam should have either clued him in to the fact that they needed to do drastic things to save Dean or else they'd lose him, OR Sam should have locked Dean up for his own good and the good of others and continued to try and save him in whatever way he was going to save him. But letting Dean continue on oblivious, and lying to him at every turn...? Not cool.

And that's where I still feel the little nudge of blame for Sam re: Charlie. Just a little. Because had Dean been let in on what everyone was doing, at least he could have opted in to help (or not) or be some extra muscle for the team (or not). Now, he's stuck with coulda shoulda woulda and never having the option to do anything. And feeling duped by everyone, which creates very powerful emotions of betrayal. The last thing you'd want is the MOC getting whiffs of betrayal.

[Aeryn13]

Well, for me absolute statements always mean absolute. I might have agreed with "Charlie`s death is ALSO on him" because in a way, everyone contributed.   

 

And I`m sure he will blame himself and be thouroughly blamed later on within the show. Right now, this is a set-up to me for some quality character-trashing later. Which is why I don`t particularly care for it. In itself, I would have no problem with the Mark making Dean go dark. That should be the point of such an arc and he hasn`t done anything even approaching true darkness until now. But this show can`t handle that.

 

I will say this is a new Dean for me. He isn`t angry, he is filled with hate. And that is not like him. Dean`s anger burns white-hot and fast, this is cold and dead. So, apparently, the Mark has unleashed something in him now. Even as a demon, he just wanted to be free and hedonistic, I don`t think he was driven by hatred. Now he is choking on it.   

Edited May 13, 2015 by Aeryn13

[rue721]

I don't see it as Demon Dean either. To me, this is how Dean reacts. I'm in no way saying Dean is nasty, but Dean often acts from an emotional place and then later, when he's had time to assess and calm down, he usually turns it around and takes it back. I in no way see this as sullying Dean, but showing that Dean's in a very bad place right now.

 

Funnily enough, I don't see this as DemonDean at all. DemonDean wouldn't care enough, I don't think, to go out and seek revenge for Charlie. DemonDean didn't make plans like that from what we saw, he was kind of in the moment. Sure he went after Sam after Sam tried to cure him and locked him up, but he didn't seek him out.

Now maybe we just didn't see enough of DemonDean to know whether he would have made good on killing Cole if Cole had actually killed Sam...? Who knows.

 

The reason it reminds me of what Demon Dean was saying to Sam in the bunker is because, when they were in the bunker, Demon Dean was trying to tear Sam down by blaming him for their parents' deaths, Dean's own life, etc.

 

It's not that I think that as a demon, Dean himself cared all that much. But I think he wanted to hit Sam where it would hurt the most. He was tormenting Sam.

 

I don't think he's as self-aware now, in this spoiler scene. But the impulse to lash out as cruelly as possible, to hurt him just to hurt him, is similar, to me.

 

Oh Dean will definitely blame himself. In fact, it's almost out of character for him to blame Sam for anything, lol (much less say Sam should be the one dead... Yikes that's way off the reservation for Dean). Dean usually tries to absolve Sam of blame (and take it on himself) even when Sam is clearly to blame/responsible for something.

 

I agree that it would be in-character for Dean to blame himself. He's a control freak in general imo, so I figure that he's going to tend to get all twisted up over how he could have done things better or how he "let" things fall apart.

 

But saying something like he should be burning Sam's corpse instead of Charlie's is *so* far out of the norm for him that I honestly don't know what's going on with his reactions. I don't feel like how he's reacted to things or felt in the past is predictive of how he's going to react or feel about things now, because now, he's so not himself.

 

I think that maybe now, what will be more predictive, is how Cain reacted to things or felt -- because the Mark is apparently driving the bus with Dean now, just like it was with Cain.

Edited May 13, 2015 by rue721

[oliverwendell]

 

I don't see it as Demon Dean either. To me, this is how Dean reacts.

 

I agree it's not Demon Dean, because Demon Dean would not give two shits about Charlie being dead or whose fault it was.  Jensen has said that that's how he sees Demon Dean:  as an entity that does not have a care in the world, and no emotional connection to anything.  

 

But I don't think it's consistent with Dean's character, either.  Yes, Dean has lashed out before when he's upset.  But almost always it's been because of something Sam did that Dean perceived as hurtful to Dean.  Sam trusting Ruby over him, or not looking for him in Purgatory, or what Sam said to him in the Purge, for example.  This is not such a case.  Dean is angry that Sam pulled Charlie into the Book of the Damned business, and that she died, in his mind, because of that.  But to take that anger to the extent that he wishes Sam and Charlie could switch places on the pyre?  I don't know.  That just seems way outside the lines of Dean's character to me.  So the writers are either mucking with his character (hopefully not) or it's the Mark poisoning his love for Sam in its mission to drive Dean to kill Sam (hopefully this).

[GirlyGeek]

The reason it reminds me of what Demon Dean was saying to Sam in the bunker is because, when they were in the bunker, Demon Dean was trying to tear Sam down by blaming him for their parents' deaths, Dean's own life, etc.

 

It's not that I think that as a demon, Dean himself cared all that much. But I think he wanted to hit Sam where it would hurt the most. He was tormenting Sam.

Ooh, good point! You're not wrong on that. I hadn't recalled how DemonDean was talking to Sam in the bunker. I just remembered him trying to kill him.

I'm thinking now about what JA said at the con about not being nice to Jared because of something he does in the finale, and wondering what the heck he could do that Dean doesn't kinda deserve after going all kill crazy and hateful. Maybe deserve is the wrong word, though. It seems logical that Sam will have to do something to stop Dean, but why would JA say fans should give JP a hard time about it?

I might be bored and reading too much into things, lol

[rue721]

Thinking about how Dean's behavior might become more like Cain's...

 

What if someone possesses Sam and Dean stabs him with the demon knife? Like how Abaddon got Cain to kill his wife?

 

What if the season ends with Dean teleporting (a la Cain)?

 

For most of the season, I've had this weird semi-hope that Dean will become King of Hell. And judging by what was going on with Crowley in the promo, maybe there *is* going to be a shakeup in Hell's hierarchy.

 

(I wonder who Rowena is hoping will take over as regent once she gets Crowley murdered? I would *think* that she'd be angling for the spot, but she doesn't really seem to be).

 

But that's only a semi-hope and not a real hope because, as the Burning Charlie's Corpse scene reminded me, my one of my very favorite things about the show is the brotherly love and uh. Can we have that again, please? It's been so long.

 

So I guess what I'm saying is that I hope that either both the Winchesters are demons/afflicted or neither of them are. I don't want any more of this family schism bullshit.

[rue721]

what the heck he could do that Dean doesn't kinda deserve after going all kill crazy and hateful. Maybe deserve is the wrong word, though. It seems logical that Sam will have to do something to stop Dean, but why would JA say fans should give JP a hard time about it?

 

What got people upset at Dean originally was him having Sam possessed and manipulated without his consent. Maybe Sam is going to have someone possess Dean in order to cleanse him from the inside out?

 

Maybe Sam will exorcise Dean to send him to Hell and get him locked up that way? In order to do that, he might have to doublecross Rowena, and team up with Crowley instead of killing him like he promised to do. Which would probably win him some points with Crowley, and get him more access to whatever he might need in Hell, and might actually not be a terrible idea. Though on the other hand, Rowena is actually easier to work with than Crowley, from everything that we've seen, so maybe it wouldn't be such a great idea, either...

 

Is the Mark really just a curse, do you think? Or is that just how Rowena sees it because she's a witch (or is that just how she describes it because she's bullshitting)?

 

I wouldn't think it was a curse, because how could (and why would) Lucifer *curse* anyone? I thought that's just something that witches did. I would think that Lucifer would damn someone instead of cursing them. But who knows.

[oliverwendell]

I wonder: we know Death is in the finale and that Dean latinates in the finale also. Maybe Dean summons Death to force him (or bargain with him) to bring Charlie back?

[catrox14]

Yes, my comment early on about it being demon!Dean was coming from what he said to Sam in the bunker. As to demon!Dean not caring about Charlie, I don't think we can say for sure that he wouldn't have cared.  All we know is that demon!Dean liked to screw waitresses, beat up said waitresses ex boyfriend, kill other demons, feed the Mark with killing, get drunk and sing karoake.

 

But in Riechenbach, when he decided to kill Lester instead of Mindy, Crowley asked demon!Dean what the hell he was doing and demon!Dean's chilling response was, "Oh. Whatever I want".  IMO that meant that whatever inflamed, enticed, excited, annoyed, what have you, he'll take action of his own accord, just like he did when he decided to kill Lester.  He didn't kill Lester for any other reason than Lester pissed him off.  Charlie's death might just piss him off for whatever reasons.

 

IF the demon cure only cured him part of the way and he's been living with demon!Dean just under the surface, then IMO this kind of betrayal, as regular!Dean would see it, could be the thing that brings out the cruel demon part of himself.   I'd actually be quite relieved if that is the direction it goes. Since we spent the finale of s8 and much of s9 having Crowley try to cope with all human ":FEEELINGS" that made him lose his focus and inject human blood instead of being a badass King of Hell, now we might finally get some parallel with human/MoC!Dean trying to cope with the demon part of himself.

[AwesomO4000]

Oh Dean will definitely blame himself. In fact, it's almost out of character for him to blame Sam for anything, lol (much less say Sam should be the one dead... Yikes that's way off the reservation for Dean). Dean usually tries to absolve Sam of blame (and take it on himself) even when Sam is clearly to blame/responsible for something. The only time that I recall Dean not jumping in for Sam is beginning of Season 5, I think, after Sam killed Lillith and Bobby was railing on him about him ending the world. Dean just stood there.

 

I disagree with you a bit here. The only time that I really remember Dean accepting the blame for something Sam did was in "Shadow" when Dean stepped up to apologize for the Meg incident. I'm not really remembering a time when Dean took responsibility for something that was clearly Sam's fault or tried to say it wasn't Sam's fault. (I'm not saying that there isn't, so if you have an example, I'll accept that I'm wrong on that.) Dean's guilt is kind of strange and complicated (more about that later), and so is his blame response. For every (paraphrase) "My brother isn't evil. He was just high." we get a "Point of No Return" scenario and an end of season 8 statement. I really don't see Dean as not blaming Sam for stuff. It seemed to me in season 1 and 2 that Dean even blamed Sam almost entirely for the family rift, and for me, part of his acting out in anger towards Sam in early season 2 was a manifestation of that. For me, it wasn't until season 3 where Dean really started to come to terms with John and John's part in the family dynamic that he might've completely let go of the "Sam broke our family" thing, although the "you always did (leave)" did still come up again later even then. For me Dean sometimes disproportionately puts blame on himself (see also below), but he is also not one to shirk putting blame where it belongs either, and that includes Sam, Castiel, and eventually John.

 

What I do have a problem with, what I do blame Sam for a bit, is for the lying to Dean...

 

Yes to this and what you said about this, and I don't think any of that is going to be forgotten. There was way too much set up of everyone and his brother (pun intended) telling Sam "Don't do this." "The book is dangerous." "This plan reeks" "Should you be lying to your brother? That only ends badly," etc. etc. for that to just all go out the window now.

 

I agree that it would be in-character for Dean to blame himself. He's a control freak in general imo, so I figure that he's going to tend to get all twisted up over how he could have done things better or how he "let" things fall apart.

 

I agree and this is why Dean's blaming himself is sort of strange sometimes for me. It's often caught up in things he couldn't control but wished he could have controlled, * but on the other hand we don't always see Dean blaming things on himself that he conceivably could have if he really wanted to twist things around and blame himself, but that he either had control of or "wouldn't change". For example, we don't see Dean blaming himself for Sam falling apart and taking up with Ruby in season 4, although it would have been conceivable for Dean to do that with a "I never should've made that deal and left you alone to fall apart like that." (And I'm not saying that what happened with Sam should be blamed on Dean, or that Dean should blame himself. I'm just saying that he could twist it that way if he really wanted to.) And even though he did blame himself for Kevin, he didn't blame himself enough to want to change what happened.

 

But Charlie is a severe case of Dean being left out of the loop, but Dean eventually likely feeling he could've done something if only he'd known, and should he have known? Should he have pushed Sam sooner, followed his hunch that Sam was lying to him and maybe followed him etc. So yes, I can see Dean feeling guilty here eventually because of this even though there was little to nothing he could have done based on the info he had.

 

* Although that doesn't always happen, because Dean was very quick and decisive not to blame himself for Castiel's bad choices even when Castiel tried to blame him some for it. But maybe Dean knew in that case that all the bad happened before he would've even had a chance to know (maybe unlike Charlie where Dean might be able to twist it into "he should've known.") As I said Dean's guilt/blame stuff is kind of complicated - like Dean sometimes - and appears to be situation dependent.

 

 

I'm thinking now about what JA said at the con about not being nice to Jared because of something he does in the finale, and wondering what the heck he could do that Dean doesn't kinda deserve after going all kill crazy and hateful. Maybe deserve is the wrong word, though. It seems logical that Sam will have to do something to stop Dean, but why would JA say fans should give JP a hard time about it?

 

As I mentioned I think before, If something happens to Castiel either because of something Rowens does and/or Sam has to kill Castiel to save Dean, that might qualify. I think rue721's scenarios are equally as upsetting. If Sam somehow sends Dean to hell again, I don't think that would go over very well at all.

[rue721]

Hey, if Dean is acting out of control, would they be able to put him on a kind of lockdown by having someone possess him and control his body in his place?

 

Like if Cas possessed Dean, for example, could he put Dean in a kind of "loop" to keep him from controlling his body, and have Cas take control Dean's body instead?

 

That would be really messed up and sick, but it uh...It might keep Dean from committing any more massacres.

 

ETA:

That plan would maybe match up pretty well with the title, "The Prisoner."

Edited May 13, 2015 by rue721

[oliverwendell]

 

But Charlie is a severe case of Dean being left out of the loop, but Dean eventually likely feeling he could've done something if only he'd known, and should he have known? Should he have pushed Sam sooner, followed his hunch that Sam was lying to him and maybe followed him etc. So yes, I can see Dean feeling guilty here eventually because of this even though there was little to nothing he could have done based on the info he had.

 

My hope is that Dean's eventual big-ass fit of remorse comes from his realizing that none of this would have happened if he hadn't recklessly taken on the Mark of Cain, because that is 100% the truth, in my opinion.  But I don't think that's going to be the case.    

 

AwesomeO4000, your scenario where Sam kills Cas makes terrible sense.  I've been expecting Cas to die in the finale for a while, and if Sam does something that Jensen thinks is going to piss the fandom off, that might well be it.  

[Aeryn13]

 

Like if Cas possessed Dean, for example

 

Dean would have to say yes to this or any other angelic possession. And they would have a hard time wrangling or even tricking that out of him presently. Consent would not be required for demonic possession but that would be a) counter-productive right now and b) noone knows if it`s even possible with the Mark.

 

 

[catrox14]

 

My hope is that Dean's eventual big-ass fit of remorse comes from his realizing that none of this would have happened if he hadn't recklessly taken on the Mark of Cain, because that is 100% the truth, in my opinion.  But I don't think that's going to be the case.

 

Dean has taken responsibility for the problems from taking on the Mark. He said it back in the Executioner's Song. He said he kicked up trouble about the Blade which is why Cain started killing again. He apologized to Charlie after beating up dark!Charlie because of the Mark. He begged Cas to burn it off or cut it  off, smite him or send him to the sun if he had too.  I'm not sure how that isn't Dean accepting his culpability about the Mark. He's even suggested that Sam lock him up if need be. 

Dean would have to say yes to this or any other angelic possession. And they would have a hard time wrangling or even tricking that out of him presently. Consent would not be required for demonic possession but that would be a) counter-productive right now and b) noone knows if it`s even possible with the Mark.

 

I would wonder if Dean could even be possessed since he had been a demon. I think it would be "funny" if Crowley tried to possess Dean only to find demon!Dean is taking up all the space. 

Edited May 13, 2015 by catrox14

[7kstar]

So will they kill Crowley?

[kimrey]

Ok, so some finale thoughts after seeing the preview.

We know from the episode description Dean will make a decision has an effect on his AND Sam's lives. The description specifically threw that Sam part in there. We know Dean is talking to Death and Death tells him he wants something from him so I'm thinking whatever it is has to do with Sam. Now, I don't know why Death would want Dean to kill Sam or do something to Sam.

Then we have those pictures of Sam and Dean with the impala in a ditch. From what we saw with how this episode ended, I don't know how Sam and Dean get back together in the car. But maybe Dean goes to find Sam for whatever Death wants.

Or maybe that scene happens after Dean has made whatever deal with Death and we think everything is good. But then BAM, imapala in a ditch!

I just don't knowww. I'm so confused about how this is going to go.

Edited May 14, 2015 by kimrey

[catrox14]

Maybe Death is going to give Dean a chance to undo not letting Sam die in s9?  That Dean will have to choose to let Sam die to make everything right? Like a Death do-over?

[7kstar]

Okay this might be out there, but what if Killing Cain has done more than releasing the Mark.  What if Dean is slowly being turned into Cain?  The line Dean said about the boy was almost word for word what Cain said when he intended to kill the boy that the brother's saved, even though we thought we saw Cain's death.  What if Cain is the one taking over Dean.

 

It also would make sense on Cain taking down Cas easily with Charlie's death being the catalyst to bring Cain to the forefront. 

 

I just wish the finale won't divide the fandom in half?  I just wanna have fun...sigh

Edited May 14, 2015 by 7kstar

[companionenvy]

The first thought that comes to my mind is some version of the initial deal Cain made: Dean damns himself in one way or another (assuming the throne of Hell?) in return for Sam in Heaven. So, we might think everything was OK because Sam has successfully cured Dean, only for Death to come to collect on the still operative deal. The season would end with both brothers dead, one in heaven and one in hell. Cas remaining on Earth would add some irony.

 

Of course, I'm always wrong on these things...

[SueB]

I couldn't find 10x23 pics.  Are they out?

 

Thoughts:

- First thing I thought was Death was offering Dean a chance to take his job -- again.

- I think the idea that he has to kill Sam is a more likely option.  Especially with Dean saying he thought Sam deserved to be on that pyre.  Kinda obvious foreshadowing.

 

Of course I could also see Dean being handed Death's Scythe but not told how to use it.  Also, wouldn't Death's Scythe also be something that could reap Dean?  I mean if Death says he could reap God, then Dean should be easy.  And remember Crowley said the Scythe could kill Death.  But I'm thinking you can't actually KILL Death, because then no one dies.  So... THAT would really throw the natural order out of balance.

 

So... I'm back to, Dean's punishment for taking on the Mark is to kill Sam to restore the natural order.  Because he and Sam (IMO) kinda were messing with the natural order when they took on the Trials in the first place.  So.... IDK... I could see this being Carver's 3 year plan. 

 

Of course it won't work out that way. 

[Altered Reality]

 

First thing I thought was Death was offering Dean a chance to take his job -- again.

SueB  get out of my head!  Seriously, it's for your own good ;D

 

This was exactly my thought.  And my second thought was to wonder if Death wasn't auditioning Dean for this very role back in Season 6.  As in Death would like to make this change in personnel permanent.  

 

Other (whacked out, bizzaro) thoughts, Death has decided it's time for God to die, but decides to outsource the job.  No idea why, but eh, why not?  Or maybe Crowley's pissed Death off somehow and now Death wants Dean to take Crowley out. 

 

I never even considered Sam, as why would Dean need Death's scythe for that? But this is Supernatural and they have a book of powerful curses, so, maybe?

[Demented Daisy]

Distressed Dean makes bad decisions.  Dean took on the Mark after Kevin died; what is he going to do when the reality of what he's done (and he cares again) comes crashing down on him?

[kimrey]

The title "Brother's Keeper" along with the episode desription specifically saying Dean's decision will have an effect on Sam's life as well definitely leads me to believe whatever Dean does with Death has to do with Sam. I think the reaper theory is a good one, but they already did that? I read a theory that he has to reap Sam. I don't even know. Nothing makes sense!

As for the promo pictures for next week, they're not out yet, but I would expect to see them any time now. Probably even today!

[catrox14]

So... I'm back to, Dean's punishment for taking on the Mark is to kill Sam to restore the natural order.  Because he and Sam (IMO) kinda were messing with the natural order when they took on the Trials in the first place.  So.... IDK... I could see this being Carver's 3 year plan.

 

 

Go back even further to when Dean died in Faith. Dean thought he was violating the natural order of things by being alive. Dean reiterated that after John exchanged his life for Dean's and saddled Dean with the prime directive of "Save Sammy or Kill Sammy" in 'Children Shouldn't Play with Dead Things" and Dean's mantra of "The dead should stay dead".  Dean said 'There's always something eating at me" and IMO that is because deep down he doesn't think he should have been alive this long. Dean thought in s8 that he would die and that he was okay with that.  

 

I think the only reason Dean could live with himself being outside the natural order of things was/is 'Save Sammy'. As long as Sam's okay then Dean being alive is okay.  But this last go round, 'Save Sammy' resulted in Kevin and Charlie's murders and Dean becoming a mass murderer even if they were bad guys. Dean's soul, whatever was left of it, is even further tainted by this.

 

Dean IMO will decide that he needs to end his own life rather than continue to kill but he can't without unleashing demon!Dean. I think Dean is summoning Death to kill him so that it restores the natural order of things.

 

AFAIK, Death has nothing he wants or needs from the Winchesters. In s6 he told Dean that if Dean ever summons him again he will kill him before he knows what's happening so I don't see Dean becoming Death again. I think the only way Dean will be able to die is by Sam's hand and Death is giving the Scythe to Sam to kill Dean. 

 

SWERVE: What if Death brings John to the proceedings and to set the natural order John has to be the one that kills Dean. Or separately Sam goes back to the psychic to summon John to try and save Dean.  What if JOHN takes on the Mark because of a loophole with the Father saving the Son.

Edited May 14, 2015 by catrox14

[SueB]

SueB  get out of my head!  Seriously, it's for your own good ;D

 

mmpppfff....WTH??! Where AM I? Oh, Damn.  Sorry, on a bit of a bender after last night's episode...kinda don't remember how I got here *stumbles out, knocking over a lamp*

 

 

Distressed Dean makes bad decisions. 

 

Kinda his go-to.  I'm pretty sure the plot of Supernatural depends on it.

 

With no pictures (yet):

- Did you notice the DEAD BODY next to the work table and bowl full of blood Rowena is talking into???  Misha said TFW were awful people at the end of this year.     I'm sure Cas wouldn't support killing a person but I could see somehow Rowena killing someone without Cas or Sam there and draining them of blood.  I think Rowena is going to remind us she MUST DIE.  At this point, she's gotten most of what she wants ... she's read the entire book now.  She's too dangerous to live.  So.. I don't see her getting out alive. Note: Dead body had jeans on I think.  I'm thinking pizza guy or something.  Not Crowley. 

- Interesting enough, though, we have Sam and Cas arguing over the table about needing to use the book. But WHERE'S ROWENA?  In the powder room?  And why is Sam trying to read it, or do a translation?  I just wonder if somehow this is towards the very end and Rowena is dead and now Sam is taking over.

- But we KNOW: Sam and Dean fight (I think in the bunker) and Cas gets between a Rowena/Crowley battle (per the write-up) and gets the blood eyes (per gag reel footage snapshot from wrap party).  So...I'm all screwed up on timeline right now.

 

What if Dean makes a Deal with Death that rids him of the Mark -- and the consequence of Sam doing a spell out of the Book of the Damned is to kill Death.  That would be a "Fan Favorite" character (per Jensen).  And fandom would be pissed at Sam if he did it (sorry AwesomeO).  And just to make it worse, it would be some situation where Dean looked like he had a solution and Sam ... working apart from him (symbology!)... screws it up by casting a spell**.  I could see a sigh of relief (when Death fixes Dean) followed immediately by some huge Biblical consequence from Sam's de-cursing spell.  I think poor AwesomeO may be right...Sam is being set up for a reverse Dean plot: first Charlie is killed (aka Kevin equivalent) and then Sam does a desperate act to save Dean (against his expressed wishes) and shit gets worse.  And it's compounded because Dean found the solution with Death (that probably involved some horrific immortal consequence for Dean that he was okay paying but that Sam would not be....oh look, another 'possession' parallel).

 

**Note: I say Sam screws it up by casting a spell in direct opposition to what Dean wants ... but we just had Dean cross a moral event horizon for many fans ... I'm pretty sure Sam sees it the same way and as justification to do what he has to. And it's a defensible position IMO.

 

Which, if this speculation (and it's JUST SPECULATION!) is right...

- I owe Dark Chocolate Chip cookies to AwesomeO

- I'm going to personally give shit to Mr. Ackles if I get a chance to at MinnCon for saying he liked the finale.  Because that would be AWFUL for Sam. 

[Altered Reality]

mmpppfff....WTH??! Where AM I? Oh, Damn.  Sorry, on a bit of a bender after last night's episode...kinda don't remember how I got here *stumbles out, knocking over a lamp*

Oh, right, sorry about the mess.  It's the maid's life off ;D

 

As for the rest of your post?  I've put my fingers in my ears and I'm lalalalalaing for all I'm worth.  :D

 

Mostly because I can totally see things going that way and I don't want them to.

[Aeryn13]

I`d still be more than okay with Jensen liking a Finale if it was good for Dean for once. Noone behind-the-scenes that I ever saw ever gave a crap when the show was suck-ass for Dean and by extension Jensen. 

 

Somehow the promo seems to give away what Death wants so this is probably not it. If it is just all about Sam, I give up. They did this entire badly-written storyline with Dean where they had no qualms about dirtying the character but in the end, not only does nothing happen with it but we`d be back to "it`s all about Sam". In that case, what even was the point? Dean might as well just have remained the cook at the bunker. So I do hope there is more to it.

 

And I do hope we`ll be getting into the redemption/build-up part of the story in the near future. I`ll probably never get the world-saving moment for Dean ever but at least something approaching it would be nice.. 

 

 

[Wynterwolf]

Go back even further to when Dean died in Faith. Dean thought he was violating the natural order of things by being alive. Dean reiterated that after John exchanged his life for Dean's and saddled Dean with the prime directive of "Save Sammy or Kill Sammy" in 'Children Shouldn't Play with Dead Things" and Dean's mantra of "The dead should stay dead".  Dean said 'There's always something eating at me" and IMO that is because deep down he doesn't think he should have been alive this long. Dean thought in s8 that he would die and that he was okay with that.  

 

That was my thought too, that this could actually goes all the way back to the beginning and even ties into what Cas said to Dean way back when, about not believing he deserved to be saved.  And to be honest, that would actually makes me more okay with how this has gone.  They've been wracking up a lot of debt on the ledger all these years, payback is a bitch.  And it's almost like TPTB have a BURN IT AAAALL DOWN mentality, but it does make me more curious about how they plan to move forward after this.  I am assuming Cas will either be dead or "human", and so it could just be Winchesters and Death at the end, which I guess is kinda fitting.  And I found it interesting that Kevin Parks also made a tweet last night implying that Charlie's death wouldn't necessarily be the end of her, similar to what Jim Michaels posted the night of her death.  Oh Show, you do weave a complicated web!! 

Edited May 16, 2015 by Wynterwolf

[catrox14]

Here's something else I noticed.

 

Charlie said that her biggest gripe was Rowena saying that the last good year for music was 1723 which is the same year that Gavin was snatched out of by Abaddon. Why drop that specific year twice?

 

I keep circling back to Sam saying that if you change ONE thing everything is affected. How can you introduce that concept unless you wanted it in your back pocket to undo something?  I'm convinced Gavin is the person on that piece of paper.  I think Crowley might have been thinking that if he sends Gavin back to his own time (1723) he can send Rowena with him.  But I'm also thinking...maybe Dean is going to opt in for demon!Dean and become the King of Hell. And Crowley suspects this will be a big problem. So if he gets Gavin back to his time then it can reset things back before he lead Dean down the path to demon!Dean. He can't go back farther than when it changed. 

 

SWERVE:  Rowena interferes with Crowley's attempts to send Gavin back to 1723 and ALL OF THEM end up in 1723 at the end of the episode.  s11 becomes Supernatural: 1723 and the quest to get back home.

[Altered Reality]

 

SWERVE:  Rowena interferes with Crowley's attempts to send Gavin back to 1723 and ALL OF THEM end up in 1723 at the end of the episode.  s11 becomes Supernatural: 1723 and the quest to get back home.

I would totally watch that!  For several seasons even :D

[catrox14]

I would totally watch that!  For several seasons even :D

 

We haven't had a good time travel episode since what Time after Time? I will laugh my ass off if that happens.  That big blast in the promo.....that's when it will happen.  :)

[Altered Reality]

We haven't had a good time travel episode since what Time after Time? I will laugh my ass off if that happens.  That big blast in the promo.....that's when it will happen.  :)

We can only hope.  I'm an evil soul and I'd love to see the boys deal with the technological limits of that time.  Oh and I want to see Dean on a horse.  Just because.

[Omegamom]

Death was *really* pissed the last time they summoned him and bound him. There were no loopholes in his threat. Of course, maybe summoning but *not* binding is okay, but why would Death even bother to come without being bound? And he despises being used to clean up the boys' messes. Hmmm.

I love Death as a character, but it feels like he is being used as a Deus ex Machina.

Maybe he wants Metadouche killed. Or Lucifer. After all, he is rather protective of God's position being usurped, even though God has left the building.

And why is he using the big scythe, rather than the little one we saw him with previously? Or will they hand wave it as "it changes form"?

[Wynterwolf]

SWERVE:  Rowena interferes with Crowley's attempts to send Gavin back to 1723 and ALL OF THEM end up in 1723 at the end of the episode.  s11 becomes Supernatural: 1723 and the quest to get back home.

 

And Jensen does love to dress up!  :-D

[Demented Daisy]

And I do hope we`ll be getting into the redemption/build-up part of the story in the near future. I`ll probably never get the world-saving moment for Dean ever but at least something approaching it would be nice.. 

 

I think taking out the Stynes was his big world-saving moment.  I think any questionable acts will be completely glossed over when he comes to terms with what he did.  I think it'll be "They tortured the world for centuries.  You did what you had to do and the world is better for it."

[Aeryn13]

Killing the Stynes was not remotely presented as anything world-saving IMO. It was a more violent (and on-screen) version of taking out a vampire nest. Nor do I believe for a second that "juggernaut of a family" or whatever term Eldon used consisted of a handful of people in one location. I`m pretty sure there remain oodles of Stynes to torture the world another day.

 

Taking out Dick Roman comes closer than that and that still falls very short of the Mark, pardon the pun. The best "epic" moment Dean has gotten was the Azazel-kill. But that wasn`t so much a global threat either. Nope, I still want the full works, in the final episode and not anyone before that, with a menace clearly said up as an apocalyptic threat and Dean taking them out. For redemption purposes, he kinda has to sacrifice himself, otherwise, it`s not much of making up for past deeds.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Aeryn13

[Demented Daisy]

*shrug*  Never said it was a good story.  But it wouldn't surprise me if that's the direction the show went.

 

And I've been saying for weeks that Dean would sacrifice himself.  Death's scythe will destroy the Mark without killing Dean, but Dean won't know that.

 

Just like Harry walked to his death; Voldemort used the Avada Kedavra curse to kill Harry.  Neither knew that by doing so, it destroyed the horcrux in Harry's head instead of killing him.

 

I saw the parallels to Harry Potter, but I never really thought they would be so blatant.  Of course, I have no proof that's what will happen next week, of course.

[Aeryn13]

 

And I've been saying for weeks that Dean would sacrifice himself.  Death's scythe will destroy the Mark without killing Dean, but Dean won't know that.

 

 

Would that even be a sacrifice? I think Dean would consider being actual kill-killed right now a great thing for everyone, himself included. A sacrifice should entail giving something up you care about, up to and including your life. Right now, I don`t think Dean cares very much. I do think he summons Death in the hopes Death can kill him permantly, without the demonization later. . 

[Demented Daisy]

Would that even be a sacrifice? I think Dean would consider being actual kill-killed right now a great thing for everyone, himself included. A sacrifice should entail giving something up you care about, up to and including your life. Right now, I don`t think Dean cares very much. I do think he summons Death in the hopes Death can kill him permantly, without the demonization later. . 

 

 

Yes.  He would be giving up his life in order to protect his friends, his family, and the world at large.  That would be his intent.  The fact that it didn't "work" doesn't minimize the sacrifice, IMO.

 

Now, if they really wanted to rip off Harry Potter, Dean would have a brief scene with Chuck immediately after Death "kills" him.  ;-)

[catrox14]

But Dean can't sacrifice himself. What would he give up. He can't die or he'll be a demon. If he becomes a demon even then he might not die because we saw him heal himself so he might just live on as an immortal demon.  He'd have to be put through the blood ritual again. 

 

And I'm not even convinced this really is a curse. I mean they are taking Rowena's word which is meaningless that it is a curse that can be removed.  I still hope it comes down to Lucifer since Lucifer gave Cain the Mark in the first place.

 

I really feel like is the only solution I'll find satisfactory.

[catrox14]

Yes.  He would be giving up his life in order to protect his friends, his family, and the world at large.  That would be his intent.  The fact that it didn't "work" doesn't minimize the sacrifice, IMO.

 

Now, if they really wanted to rip off Harry Potter, Dean would have a brief scene with Chuck immediately after Death "kills" him.  ;-)

 

Oh if only they hadn't killed Cain.

 

Which leads me to this: 

 

Did Death ever try to reap Cain?  Would Death have tried to reap Cain? Did Death try to reap Dean when he died and before he woke up a demon? Would Crowley have interfered with Death trying to reap Dean? 

 

Ironically, Death will probably "save" Dean's "life" by killing him for real.  I know the show has another season, but do we know for sure that the boys both will back for s11?  Has that been confirmed. 

[Demented Daisy]

But Dean can't sacrifice himself. What would he give up. He can't die or he'll be a demon. If he becomes a demon even then he might not die because we saw him heal himself so he might just live on as an immortal demon.  He'd have to be put through the blood ritual again. 

 

The only way that the Mark could resurrect Dean as a demon is if it's stronger than Death.

 

Does anyone believe that the Mark is stronger than Death?  

Edited May 14, 2015 by Demented Daisy

[catrox14]

The only way that the Mark could resurrect Dean as a demon is if it's stronger than Death.

 

Does anyone believe that the Mark is stronger than Death?  

 

 

Does Death reap souls that have been demons before? I've never even thought about it until now. 

 

Does Death intervene in these situations? Is that all in Crowley's realm? The death and life of demons? Is there a demon reaper? I

[Demented Daisy]

I think Death intervenes only in VIP cases.  His reapers deal with everyone else -- and by that, I mean human souls.  I don't think Death or his reapers deal with monsters, demons, etc.

 

But it's never been explicitly stated, no.

[catrox14]

So if Dean was a human when he died in 9.23 which he was AFAIK, then shouldn't a reaper have been lurking?  If so what happened? AHHH I really need to know this now!