Spoilers With Speculation

[catrox14]

16 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Personally I think they have done really well with Mary.  I am pleased she is,a,fully realized character and neither a Mary Sue or Mommy.  I think it is brilliant rhat they are using her as,a,stepping off point for exploring Dean's,tragic flaw since her loss is undoubtedly the crux of its development.

Resurrected Mary is nothing like 1973 to 1979 Mary. That Mary was a badass and well crafted. Complex. Kind, tough, loving. And that is the Mary that Dean knew most recently. He didn't idealize, idolize, nor put her on a pedestal. It's one long strawman storyline. YMMV

[gonzosgirrl]

24 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Yeah, I think that had everything to do with it. He was blinded and didn't care about Dean and Sam. I mean he never knew them. They weren't anything to him.

And this is what they turned resurrected Mary into as well. She fakes caring about the sons she never knew (even to herself), blind to all but her own needs. She had more connection and concern about a child from her past than to her own flesh and blood. I could almost buy this version, if they just stuck with it and blamed it on being brought back from the dead 'wrong'. But Dabb doubled down and made her a woman who also lied to her husband, continued to hunt after her child was born and left them unprotected from a deal she knew she made. So yeah, my empathy for her is zero. And now she wants to stay in an alternate world because it's pure? Because she can be a hunter and nothing else? Or worse, be a hunter and care for who knows what other children in that world? Seriously, screw her.

And IMO, he IS painting the brothers, or at least Dean, as the 'bad guy' while poor Mary is just misunderstood.

[gonzosgirrl]

This was taken today in Vancouver. Would you say this is more scruff than usual for Dean? Are they filming the finale now? Could it be for whoever the 'new' character is?

[Myrelle]

35 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

This was taken today in Vancouver. Would you say this is more scruff than usual for Dean? Are they filming the finale now? Could it be for whoever the 'new' character is?

I don't think it looks like more than usual, but it IS *my* favorite look on him-a bit more than a five o'clock shadow. ;-)

[gonzosgirrl]

Yeah I don't know why it struck me as more, but I looked at some stills from 13x14 and it's like that. Sorry!

[Myrelle]

No need to apologize for bringing us such a lovely, lovely pic.

And his eyes say Archangel Michael, Scourge of Demonkind, Right Hand of God, and High Commander of the Heavenly Host to me.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

This was taken today in Vancouver. Would you say this is more scruff than usual for Dean? Are they filming the finale now? Could it be for whoever the 'new' character is?

I don't think it's more scruff than usual.

[Bobcatkitten]

He looks a bit tired. But still hot.

[ILoveReading]

 Sneak Peek. 

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

 Sneak Peek. 

Responding in the bitterness thread

[Wayward Son]

Yay for Sam and Cas working together scene <3 . 

 

Random question but is it just me or does Misha look especially small next to Jared? 

Edited April 11, 2018 by Wayward Son

[gonzosgirrl]

5 hours ago, scribe95 said:

He looks a bit tired. But still hot.

I was wondering if it was beer eyes, but hoping that maybe it was irritation from wearing coloured contacts all day - maybe yellow ones? Or black. Or do they even use contacts for that anymore or just CGI it? *grasping at straws*

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Yay for Sam and Cas working together scene <3 . 

 

Random question but is it just me or does Misha look especially small next to Jared? 

I swear Jared wears lifts sometimes. Because Misha is about 6'1, Jensen  is 6'2 IIRC. Why they make Jared look like a giant sometimes but not other times is baffling. I mean I get it's probably hard to get them both into frames but come on...

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

I was wondering if it was beer eyes, but hoping that maybe it was irritation from wearing coloured contacts all day - maybe yellow ones? Or black. Or do they even use contacts for that anymore or just CGI it? *grasping at straws*

That's what I was thinking LOL. Could just be allergy eyes

I think they CGI that these days.

[Aeryn13]

Jeez, everyone else handles torture like yesterday`s news on this show - remember Mary blankly wondering if torture gave her a mild headache - but archangel! Gabriel is literally rocking himself in a corner.  This is way too wimpy in context.

Can`t wait to learn how demigods sold him away. Lucifer slid through the lot of them like butter

Edited April 11, 2018 by Aeryn13

[ILoveReading]

5 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I was wondering if it was beer eyes, but hoping that maybe it was irritation from wearing coloured contacts all day - maybe yellow ones? Or black. Or do they even use contacts for that anymore or just CGI it? *grasping at straws*

I hope its not colored contacts.  I don't want Dean playing a yellow eyed demon, or stunt demon number 3.  I don't see how that fits the spoiler, Dean steps up. 

[Aeryn13]

They might signify Michael with the glowing blue angel eyes. I don`t know if that is a mixture of contacts and CGI or just CGI. 

[ILoveReading]

Just now, Aeryn13 said:

They might signify Michael with the glowing blue angel eyes. I don`t know if that is a mixture of contacts and CGI or just CGI. 

I hope its this.

[gonzosgirrl]

5 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I hope its not colored contacts.  I don't want Dean playing a yellow eyed demon, or stunt demon number 3.  I don't see how that fits the spoiler, Dean steps up. 

I don't think there's any way Jensen would agree to stunt demon number 3 - that's pushing it, even for Dabb & Co, lol.

I'm starting to think the 'stepping up' and the 'new' role are two separate things. Stepping up being him taking on going through the rift on his own - which will likely be done by the end of the episode, and the new role coming at the end of the season finale.

ETA: I almost added the blue eyes to my original list, but we don't really see them for more than a second or two on any angel, do we? Though I guess the same is true for yellow and black eyed demons - they only reveal them when they need to.

Edited April 11, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[SueB]

Poor Gabriel.  I love how gentle Sam and Cas are with him.  I want them to get him a warm blankey.  Rich does a great job selling the trauma.  I don't want to know what happened but I imagine that for an Archangel to go from all-powerful to 'powerless to stop the torture' is a real challenge.  He's never really had to develop survival skills like a normal human.  

[Myrelle]

13 hours ago, scribe95 said:

He looks a bit tired. But still hot.

 

7 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I was wondering if it was beer eyes

I totally think it's beer eyes. :-D

7 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

They might signify Michael with the glowing blue angel eyes. I don`t know if that is a mixture of contacts and CGI or just CGI. 

 

7 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I hope its this.

Ditto.

[ILoveReading]

A couple of episode stills.

I wish this whole ep was going to be in the AU, but I figure

A story- Sam, Cas and Gabe.

B story- Lucifer, Sister Jo.

C story- Dean, Ketch.

Jensen filmed about 3 days at most on this ep which means 10-15 minutes of screen time at maximum.

[ILoveReading]

Inside the episode

[gonzosgirrl]

Gabriel might have stood up to his brother in the end, but he was a complete POS to Dean and Sam prior to that, killing Dean for fun, torturing Sam with it. And killing how many before that as the Trickster? So yeah, not a lot of sympathy for him. Karma's a bitch. But please, lets have Sam coddle and cuddle him - I'm sure the Sabriel fans will lap it up.

[Bobcatkitten]

19 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Gabriel might have stood up to his brother in the end, but he was a complete POS to Dean and Sam prior to that, killing Dean for fun, torturing Sam with it. And killing how many before that as the Trickster? So yeah, not a lot of sympathy for him. Karma's a bitch. But please, lets have Sam coddle and cuddle him - I'm sure the Sabriel fans will lap it up.

What could they possibly "need" Gabriel for? 

[Jonesy]

Not into Sabriel--lol.  On  can easily like Gabriel  being back without that like.  He's a great character--though can't wait until he gets out of his funk...we obviously have seen pics of him where he looks to be doing better. 

[Myrelle]

I'm sorry. I thought that Sam/Gabriel scene was So. Friggin. Weird.

I'll hold off on judging the AU stuff until I see it all, though.

[Wayward Son]

I’m delighted that the episode will feature a Cas/Sam pairing! I always enjoy seeing them work together.

 

While I’m not quite as excited by the Ketch / Dean pairing I am looking forward to it also. Ackles and DHJ work well together :)

[SueB]

1 hour ago, Jakes said:

Not into Sabriel--lol.  On  can easily like Gabriel  being back without that like.  He's a great character--though can't wait until he gets out of his funk...we obviously have seen pics of him where he looks to be doing better. 

Me either.... I just liked to see Sam's compassion be on display and I like Gabriel. 

While I agree killing those dudes as the Trickster was bullshit and showed arrogance, I'm not sure, that this was a pattern of his life BEFORE that college town.  I've retconned (as the show has) that since he was always Gabriel, he just wanted to get a peek at the boys and so he drew their attention.  I think he knew they were important even if they (Sam, Dean, and maybe Gabriel) didn't know the whole story.  And then Gabriel came BACK and tortured Sam to give up his obsession with saving Dean.  Okay, not cool, but I think Gabriel thought he was helping in a weird way.  Apparently not, however, because when Dean died Sam still went off the rails and started listening to Ruby.  IDK.  I just think there's a story there that COULD be made about what Gabriel did and did not know and when he knew it.  And why he took an interest in the boys in the first place.  However, I feel 100% confident we won't be revisiting those days.  We'll, at best, pick up with the last interaction -- the bail out before the Apocalypse move. 

With the spoiler that Gabriel is seeking revenge on the demigods who gave him up, I think Gabriel IS our Gabriel (not Michael in a Gabriel suit).  Which means he DITCHED the boys and left them on their own for the Apocalypse.  He confront Lucifer and used that as a way of doing another 'peace out' to witness protection. He did help but not at the risk of his own skin.   

I wonder if the boys are going to bust his chops about that?  

Regardless, I think they will first heal him up and then verbally bust his chops.  And ultimately, he is their best hope for an Archangel ally.  They know it and will react accordingly (I believe).  

Edited April 12, 2018 by SueB
Bail spelling - because bale involves hay

[SueB]

Onto the preview- Ah, it's a FLESH WOUND, I tell ya, a FLESH WOUND!  Actually, IDK how Dean is going to handle getting shot but it looked left shoulder area.  So long as he's not bleeding out, he can limp along?

Which suggests to me that he'll have to rely on Ketch and that through the episode he will decide Ketch is desperate enough for redemption that he can trust him to find Mary/Jack while Dean goes back to rally the troops.  I mean, it seems evident the episode ends with Dean back in our universe and Ketch in the AU.  This may provide the path for them to work together enough that Dean decides Ketch is on the level.  It's a stretch.  But Dean foreshadowed it when he said he was rooting for Ketch to get killed.  So it's a twist that Dean is the one in physical jeopardy.  I suspect there will be a shit ton of insults along the way. Ketch deserves that and more.  But it won't be the first time Dean just has to play the cards he's been dealt, whether he likes it or not.  This is like the opposite of working with Scooby Doo. This is like working with his worst enemy (IS Ketch his worst enemy?  Is that Lucifer?  Exactly WHO is the last person he wants to work with?  I think Lucifer is lower than Ketch -- both are psychopaths -- but I think he knows twisted Ketch cares for Mary).  

Sam telling Gabriel that he has to come back for family, for Jack, for the world, and finally for Sam.  Well, I'm not a Sabriel shipper but that looks like a shout-out to me!  Not that this is the direction they are going to go in.  But maybe Sam WILL bring up what the boys did for the universe while he went into hiding.  Gabriel's sense of justice means Sam can play on the idea that Gabriel owes the brothers for saving the world (which he did like) while Gabriel took a powder.  So, that's works for me.

[gonzosgirrl]

Who wants to bet that Dean comes back through the rift wounded so that Cas can lecture him a little before healing him, whilst Sam sighs in consternation?

I'm sure Singer is giggling with glee at taking Dean down a peg. Again. And some more.

[ILoveReading]

I figure Ketch is either going to die saving Mary and Jack, or he'll stay in the AU and fight.

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Who wants to bet that Dean comes back through the rift wounded so that Cas can lecture him a little before healing him, whilst Sam sighs in consternation?

Watching the short promo I'm trying to see where Dean is injured, but I don't see any blood or even ripped clothing.

[catrox14]

37 minutes ago, SueB said:

Regardless, I think they will first heal him up and then verbally bust his chops.  And ultimately, he is their best hope for an Archangel ally.  They know it and will react accordingly (I believe).  

Well, if Lucifer is the example of busting chops, it will be milquetoast at best but likely non existent.

Maybe I'll get lucky and Dean will kill him. That would be cool by me.

Just now, ILoveReading said:

I figure Ketch is either going to die saving Mary and Jack, or he'll stay in the AU and fight.

Watching the short promo I'm trying to see where Dean is injured, but I don't see any blood or even ripped clothing.

Oh maybe Demon Dean is lurking and is self healing. That would be fun. And also not going to happen. LOL

[Myrelle]

Nevermind.

Edited April 12, 2018 by Myrelle

[gonzosgirrl]

8 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I figure Ketch is either going to die saving Mary and Jack, or he'll stay in the AU and fight.

Watching the short promo I'm trying to see where Dean is injured, but I don't see any blood or even ripped clothing.

He goes down pretty hard after being shot at. Unless it hit the backpack and just knocked him down? Dunno, but it looks like he got winged at least.

In other news - why would they not have at least cleaned up Gabriel's face by now? If Cas can't heal him, for... reasons, then how about a wet face cloth? I guess the bloody face adds to the Drama!!!

[catrox14]

24 minutes ago, SueB said:

Gabriel's sense of justice means Sam can play on the idea that Gabriel owes the brothers for saving the world (which he did like) while Gabriel took a powder.

What sense of justice? I'm not being snarky? Why would Gabriel, how apparently has been dragged back into something he wanted out of and was supposedly dead, going to do anything for the Winchesters? 

I'm pretty sure Sam is thinking of his own time in Hell so he's again identifying with someone like himself.

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

He goes down pretty hard after being shot at. Unless it hit the backpack and just knocked him down? Dunno, but it looks like he got winged at least.

In other news - why would they not have at least cleaned up Gabriel's face by now? If Cas can't heal him, for... reasons, then how about a wet face cloth? I guess the bloody face adds to the Drama!!!

I'm assuming it's because Gabriel doesn't want to be touched. But they could give him his own washcloth to allow him to clean up. Since they've already pinged the stupid Sabriel fanon, I'm fully expecting that Sam will take him down to the showers and well the rest just writes itself.

And from the preview it looks like Cas is weirdly not healing him. Have we seen Cas heal anyone since he's been back from the Empty? I can't remember.

[ILoveReading]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

In other news - why would they not have at least cleaned up Gabriel's face by now? If Cas can't heal him, for... reasons, then how about a wet face cloth? I guess the bloody face adds to the Drama!!!

This is actually one thing that doesn't bother me.  With someone as traumatized as Gabe is, coming near him could be dangerous for Sam or Cas, because even though its just water, Gabe doesn't know that or that they don't have any intentions of hurting him further.

Gabe could react violently or it could send him into a deeper catatonic state.

He has to kind of set the pace in regards to being touched.

Edited April 12, 2018 by ILoveReading

[gonzosgirrl]

Just now, ILoveReading said:

This is actually one thing that doesn't bother me.  With someone as traumatized as Gabe is, coming near him could be dangerous for Sam or Cas, because even though its just water, Gabe doesn't know that or that they don't have any intentions of hurting him further.

He has to kind of set the pace in regards to being touched.

But he let him cut away the stitches, why not clean it then? And he let Sam help him up onto the bed. And all Cas has to do is touch him to heal/clean him up.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

But he let him cut away the stitches, why not clean it then? And he let Sam help him up onto the bed. And all Cas has to do is touch him to heal/clean him up.

Yup.  I agree that he doesn't want to be touched but it is inconsistent with them cutting off his stitches. And really, didn't they have a smaller pair of scissors?

[Bergamot]

1 hour ago, scribe95 said:

What could they possibly "need" Gabriel for? 

This is an excellent question! I can't think of anything. Especially considering what a poor job they have done developing the stories of the characters they already have this season -- why introduce another one at this point, and specifically why this one? I guess it's because the fans who go to cons think the actor is such a cool guy? I'm sure he is, but that's not a good enough reason for me.

And if they were determined to have the actor back, it's a shame they couldn't have done something else with him. Gabriel was not a good guy, but he did redeem himself in the end by sacrificing himself by standing up to Lucifer. Bringing him back now, and having him heal up and get back to his old perky self, just cheapens that whole storyline. For Gabriel, "nothing in his life became him like the leaving of it" -- but that's spoiled now.

The other thing is, it is one thing to give a redemption story to a bad guy, but it is another to turn him into a complete woobie and demand that we sympathize with him and pretend that he never was a bad guy. It's just irritating to me.

Edited April 12, 2018 by Bergamot

[Wayward Son]

25 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Who wants to bet that Dean comes back through the rift wounded so that Cas can lecture him a little before healing him, whilst Sam sighs in consternation?

I hadn’t thought of that as a possible outcome, but now I  hope it happens like that. 

[ILoveReading]

5 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

But he let him cut away the stitches, why not clean it then? And he let Sam help him up onto the bed. And all Cas has to do is touch him to heal/clean him up.

This is how little impression Gabriel has made on me that I completely he let Sam cut the stitches. 

I

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I hadn’t thought of that as a possible outcome, but now I  hope it happens like that. 

But to what end though? He's done this before. He'll do it again. He's protecting his loved ones this way.That's obvious from his words to Sam. That he doesn't care if Ketch dies, but he does care if Sam and IMO also Cas dies. And he needs them here in case something goes wrong. I mean other than just some satisfaction you'll have out of Dean being flogged again, it isn't likely to change anythig

[Wayward Son]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

But to what end though? He's done this before. He'll do it again. He's protecting his loved ones this way.That's obvious from his words to Sam. That he doesn't care if Ketch dies, but he does care if Sam and IMO also Cas dies. And he needs them here in case something goes wrong. I mean other than just some satisfaction you'll have out of Dean being flogged again, it isn't likely to change anythig

It mightn’t change anything, but I’ll take the personal satisfaction of the others acknowledging Dean was wrong. 

 

If only someone would point out it should have been Sam who went seeing as he never gave up on Mary or Jack while Dean started the season all “eh, she’s dead so just leave it “

[ILoveReading]

3 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

If only someone would point out it should have been Sam who went seeing as he never gave up on Mary or Jack while Dean started the season all “eh, she’s dead so just leave it “

Didn't Sam lose hope just as he learned that everything he believed in was true and he was moping in bed all day because they didn't have a plan. 

If things go wrong, Sam agreed to the plan, and if Cas feels so strongly the rift is right there.  If he choses not to go in neither he nor Sam have a right to lecture Dean on how wrong he was. 

Edited April 12, 2018 by ILoveReading

[gonzosgirrl]

6 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Didn't Sam lose hope just as he learned that everything he believed in was true and he was moping in bed all day because they didn't have a plan. 

If things go wrong, Sam agreed to the plan, and if Cas feels so strongly the rift is right there.  If he choses not to go in neither he nor Sam have a right to lecture Dean on how wrong he was. 

Especially considering how many times Cas has completely ignored or circumvented Dean's wishes, or 'orders' if you want to call it that, in the past. Nope, neither of them have any grounds to lecture this time, but we all know that ain't gonna stop them.

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

It mightn’t change anything, but I’ll take the personal satisfaction of the others acknowledging Dean was wrong. 

 

If only someone would point out it should have been Sam who went seeing as he never gave up on Mary or Jack while Dean started the season all “eh, she’s dead so just leave it “

Except Sam did give up after they came back from the Bad Place. That's what all the angst was about a few episodes ago and Dean saying "I have faith" when Sam no longer did.

[gonzosgirrl]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Except Sam did give up after they came back from the Bad Place. That's what all the angst was about a few episodes ago and Dean saying "I have faith" when Sam no longer did.

Yup. And Sam had to stay behind to comfort and console his 'family', Gabriel, as only Sam can. Cuz he's the kind, empathetic one. Dean probably woulda just kicked him while he's down.

[SueB]

48 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

What sense of justice? I'm not being snarky? Why would Gabriel, how apparently has been dragged back into something he wanted out of and was supposedly dead, going to do anything for the Winchesters? 

I'm pretty sure Sam is thinking of his own time in Hell so he's again identifying with someone like himself.

I think he played the part of the Trickster because he doesn't like hypocrites or dicks (personality wise, gender can vary).  When he ditched the boys he got to save the girl and be the dead hero. But in reality he snuck off into his own witness protection and let Sam and Dean do the hard work.  So, he owes Sam & Dean because I think he recognizes ditching them was a dick move.   JMO YMMV.

I have no problem if Cas yells at Dean (and heals him).  Sam at least got 20 seconds to protest. I don't think Dean getting shot indicates Dean was stupid.  They get shot and abused fairly routinely.  He took a risk.  Cas should yell at him for not calling him, not for getting shot.  But I don't know if Cas will do that.  But IMO Dean owes Cas an explanation.  Cas is part of the team.    

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, SueB said:

have no problem if Cas yells at Dean (and heals him).  Sam at least got 20 seconds to protest. I don't think Dean getting shot indicates Dean was stupid.  They get shot and abused fairly routinely.  He took a risk.  Cas should yell at him for not calling him, not for getting shot.  But I don't know if Cas will do that.  But IMO Dean owes Cas an explanation.  Cas is part of the team.    

Dean is not required to clear his plans with Cas.  Nor does he need Cas's permission.  Which is exactly how this will come across to me if it happens on screen.

Cas told Dean he ditched him in purgatory because he was like a beacon that drew the bad things to him.  I'm guessing that Dean might feel like the same thing might happen here.  It's an educated guess.  As we saw Michael and the angels were drawn to Jack's powers.  So its likely Cas can't use his powers.

Plus, I think there is a part of Dean that is worried about losing Cas again.

IMO, if Cas has an opportunity to go into AW after Dean but choses to stay in the bunker he's making a choice and agreeing with Dean's plan.  This give Cas zero rights to yell at Dean for anything.

[companionenvy]

8 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Dean is not required to clear his plans with Cas.  Nor does he need Cas's permission.  Which is exactly how this will come across to me if it happens on screen.

 

He's not required to clear his plans with Cas, but I'd be slightly miffed if I'd been working with someone on a major project and they didn't bother to check in with me before completing the final step, even though they easily could have. Although yeah, it would be hypocritical of Cas or Sam to object, given their respective histories of doing similar things.