Spoilers With Speculation

[Wayward Son]

6 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I seem to have lost track of when the hiatus is over.  Is there an episode tomorrow?  Is the episode with Donna supposed to be the spin off episode?  I feel like the show's been off forever.

1) The show returns next week - Thursday 18th 

 

2) Episode 10 (next week’s) is the back door pilot. It will feature the entire spin off cast + Sam and Dean. Episode 11 will then be the Donna episode and AFAIK won’t feature any of the other Wayward Cast members. 

[MysteryGuest]

Thank you, Wayward Son...hiatus' mess with my head!  So the backdoor pilot will be the Wayward women rescuing Sam and Dean, and then we get Donna's episode.  I'm glad they're not trying to cram it all into one episode. 

[SlightlyObsessed]

No, no, no...Please tell me I’m reading this wrong...Carver is back?! 

[DittyDotDot]

10 minutes ago, SlightlyObsessed said:

No, no, no...Please tell me I’m reading this wrong...Carver is back?! 

No, I don't think sho, he's been listed as an Executive Producer since he left. Not sure why though, I'd have thought he'd be a Consulting Producer at most by now.

[catrox14]

27 minutes ago, SlightlyObsessed said:

No, no, no...Please tell me I’m reading this wrong...Carver is back?! 

He's been listed as an EP since he left. Might be a contractual thing. Maybe he's still contributing behind the scenes. I, for one, would be perfectly fine with Carver coming back.

[gonzosgirrl]

It's weird that Dabb is not listed though. This isn't the first time this has happened - I think they just enjoy torturing me. Unless my curse actually worked? #WishfulThinking #Sad

[catrox14]

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

It's weird that Dabb is not listed though. This isn't the first time this has happened - I think they just enjoy torturing me. Unless my curse actually worked? #WishfulThinking #Sad

I remember this happened last season but I can't remember if it was Amanda's episode or not.

[gonzosgirrl]

36 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I remember this happened last season but I can't remember if it was Amanda's episode or not.

Found it in Jim Michaels' timeline. 12x15

[gonzosgirrl]

At least the took the 'once' out of the voiceover (they saved me once). It's still super cheesy and doesn't make me excited to watch.

No doubt in my mind they are looking to ride the wave of Kathryn's current popularity.

[bozodegama]

57 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

At least the took the 'once' out of the voiceover (they saved me once). It's still super cheesy and doesn't make me excited to watch.

No doubt in my mind they are looking to ride the wave of Kathryn's current popularity.

Seriously?????  Wtf.  So now the guys who've beaten like 4 apocalypses, killed so many demons, angels, reapers, Even Death, got rid of the Darkness need saving by 2 or 3 twenty year old girls with little to no experience as hunters. It's going to be a cringe worthy episode for me.  And i almost always like all the episodes.  But this is too much for me. I think they are just looking to hook the millennial viewers.  Screw everyone else.  Maybe they should trade Baby in for a new Prius, play some Drake music in the car and have Dean and Cass make out.  I feel kinda old and left out.  Just saying

[catrox14]

That was bad. Taking my critique to the Bitter Spoilers Thread

[Wayward Son]

Honestly, I think people are massively overreacting. Sam and Dean are trapped in another world, which seems to be pre-historic and thus presumably lacking in resources. They aren’t dimensional travelling experts. They’ve been to two that I recall, the first transported there by Balthazar and the second Jack accidentally opened. So them needing help out of that one? Not all that surprising. The Wayward girls in our world at least have access to bunker resources and lore.

 

at least they aren’t being rescued from vampire hunt 200. 

[gonzosgirrl]

6 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Honestly, I think people are massively overreacting. Sam and Dean are trapped in another world, which seems to be pre-historic and thus presumably lacking in resources. They aren’t dimensional travelling experts. They’ve been to two that I recall, the first transported there by Balthazar and the second Jack accidentally opened. So them needing help out of that one? Not all that surprising. The Wayward girls in our world at least have access to bunker resources and lore.

 

at least they aren’t being rescued from vampire hunt 200. 

I am really trying to reserve judgement on the episode until I've seen it. But the promo with its cheesy voice over is just not good. Kathryn (as Claire) just doesn't have the gravitas or the credibility to pull off that kind of speech, not to anyone who's ever watched an episode of the show with her in it. It would have been at least acceptable coming from Jody.

Edited January 11, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[ILoveReading]

My biggest issue isn't that Sam and Dean need help.  It's that Jody and Donna seem to be reaching out for help from teenagers who have never hunted before.  It feels like they're making the girls uber hunters too fast. 

[catrox14]

My problem is the entire setup putting them in that universe had them acting in ways they don't normally behave and throw away normal routines like banishing sigils to put them in a place they can't get out of without them being saved by the WS. If they did all the things they normally do, fine whatever, but they didn't.

The boys DO have plenty of experience with both time and interdimensional travel since Heaven, Hell and Purgatory are all different dimensions. They know of portals. They should be looking for a way out themselves.

Why would WS have access to the bunker? AFAIK, none of them have ever been there. I don't even think they know where it is.  Other BMOL know but didn't they kill them all and they don't know that Ketch is alive unless Ketch decides to go after Jody for ...reasons.

Maybe Sam and Jody scavenged that info and Jody has heretofore unknown access to a tablet that Sam gave her and a password or they will find it in John's journal in their bags that were conveniently left behind because Dean and Sam didn't have them in the AU.  Or they break into the Impala and a key and a map to the bunker are in the trunk...If there is a key and a map to the bunker Dean and Sam better just stop hunting now. That would be ridiculous. 

Regardless why would they need access to the bunker when Kaia already knows where they went. But Claire doesn't know of Kaia. So is Kaia just going to tell the cops about her adventures with Dean and Sam and Jack? Shouldn't she already be on the radar for breaking out of the rehab place? Is she going to overhear Claire and Alex talk about Sam and Dean and be like BTW...I think I know where they are?

[DittyDotDot]

59 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Honestly, I think people are massively overreacting. Sam and Dean are trapped in another world, which seems to be pre-historic and thus presumably lacking in resources. They aren’t dimensional travelling experts. They’ve been to two that I recall, the first transported there by Balthazar and the second Jack accidentally opened. So them needing help out of that one? Not all that surprising. The Wayward girls in our world at least have access to bunker resources and lore.

 

at least they aren’t being rescued from vampire hunt 200. 

Yeah, I don't think they will SAVE the Winchesters as much as find out where they are and open a doorway so they can get home. I imagine Sam and Dean will save themselves from those creatures, not the girls.

[SueB]

I'm so excited! http://www.thetvaddict.com/2018/01/11/the-cw-teasers-a-witch-returns-on-supernatural-a-face-off-on-arrow-and-more/

 

Quote

Thursday, February 1

SUPERNATURAL 13.13 “Various & Sundry Villains”: Dean (Jensen Ackles) falls victim to a couple of witches, sisters Jamie (guest star Jordan Clair Robbins) and Jennie Plum (guest star Elise Gatien), who manage to steal a powerful book of spells from the Winchester brothers. When Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean go after the book, they get help from a powerful and surprising ally when Rowena (guest star Ruth Connell), back from the dead, intervenes to assist them. Amanda Tapping directed the episode written by Steve Yockey.

Rowena is back!  Of course I hate that the boys lose a powerful book of spells but hopefully it was one they had with them and not somehow that they witches got in the bunker.

[catrox14]

10 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

At least the took the 'once' out of the voiceover (they saved me once). It's still super cheesy and doesn't make me excited to watch.

No doubt in my mind they are looking to ride the wave of Kathryn's current popularity.

Huh. They deleted that promo from their twitter. But it's still on youtube.

Edited January 12, 2018 by catrox14

[gonzosgirrl]

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Huh. They deleted that promo from their twitter. But it's still on youtube.

Did you notice is there was any negative reaction to it on the actual tweet? I didn't even respond this time as there is generally no point.

[ILoveReading]

31 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Did you notice is there was any negative reaction to it on the actual tweet? I didn't even respond this time as there is generally no point.

I didn't read the comments but I did see one person complaining about the negativity to the promo.   How much there was I don't know. 

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

I didn't read the comments but I did see one person complaining about the negativity to the promo.   How much there was I don't know. 

I generally make my opinion known to them. I try to be respectful, but I don't think it does any good to blow smoke up their skirts - and I don't know how many times I've been trolled for being anything less than glowing to the (awful) @cw_spn twitter account. This time I knew I wouldn't be able to be civil about how bad that promo is, so I didn't respond at all. It really makes me wonder who, among TPTB, listens to something like that and says, Yes! Do it!!

[ILoveReading]

 

The article contains a clip.

This looks....not good. 

Edited January 12, 2018 by ILoveReading

[ILoveReading]

New Shaving people hunting things video

[Casseiopeia]

38 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

This looks....not good.

This looks... in any way shape or form...not good.   The promo I mean.  What are they thinking!!!

Edited January 12, 2018 by Casseiopeia

[catrox14]

Here is the youtube version of the Shaving People, Punting Things.

Siamo Tornati translates via Google to We're Back

There is some trippy shit in here.

-- Cas does not look like Cas at fucking ALL in this. He looks like Casifer again. Or the Empty Creature. That does not look like Cas' reactions. Nope.

-- Dean punches Sam WTF.

--Dean does indeed knock the gun from Sam's hand. Something ain't right.
-- "Shows over?" Who is Dean saying that to?
--Something is on fire in the bunker.
--Jack is freaking out and scared and calling for Sam and Dean draped in red light which might e the bunker going on lock down again with the red lights
--Claire shoots someone through a box.
-- I repeat. Cas does not look like Cas and Dean punches Sam GTFO 

Edited January 12, 2018 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

54 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

 

The article contains a clip.

This looks....not good. 

Oh, I don't know, I don't think it doesn't look good as much as it doesn't really tell us anything about the show...but hey, good thing they featured Kathryn Newton again, otherwise, I wouldn't know that she was in it. Sigh.

20 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

New Shaving people hunting things video

Now, that's a decent promo.

[Boopsahoy]

17 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Here is the youtube version of the Shaving People, Punting Things.

Siamo Tornati translates via Google to We're Back

There is some trippy shit in here.

-- Cas does not look like Cas at fucking ALL in this. He looks like Casifer again. Or the Empty Creature. That does not look like Cas' reactions. Nope.

-- Dean punches Sam WTF.

--Dean does indeed knock the gun from Sam's hand. Something ain't right.
-- "Shows over?" Who is Dean saying that to?
--Something is on fire in the bunker.
--Jack is freaking out and scared and calling for Sam and Dean draped in red light which might e the bunker going on lock down again with the red lights
--Claire shoots someone through a box.
-- I repeat. Cas does not look like Cas and Dean punches Sam GTFO 

 

Oh that is definitely not our Cas in the promo!

[catrox14]

Just now, Boopsahoy said:

Oh that is definitely not our Cas in the promo!

THANK YOU! I have never seen our Cas have that kind of evil expression. Not even Crazy!God!Cas

I'm thinking body swap with Cas and Lucifer? Also, Lucifer seems to have some kind of power back.

I was wondering who was going to be revealed in that cell with all the stringy long hair. I had a crazy thought it might be Adam.

Sam is also freaking out about something.

[Boopsahoy]

Just now, catrox14 said:

THANK YOU! I have never seen our Cas have that kind of evil expression. Not even Crazy!God!Cas

I'm thinking body swap with Cas and Lucifer? Also, Lucifer seems to have some kind of power back.

I was wondering who was going to be revealed in that cell with all the stringy long hair. I had a crazy thought it might be Adam.

Sam is also freaking out about something.

Maybe Lucifer convinced Cas the 2 of them in one body would be stronger than them as separate beings? Or its the Cas from the empty??? Remember the tie discrepancy>!

[catrox14]

More things.

--That looks like Rowena in a stilleto approaching a hex bag that is next to I presume, Dean. But I can't tell exactly.

--THAT IS NOT CAS DAMMIT.

--Close up of AU Bobby's eyes.

-- There is a glimpse of I think Danneel as sister jo but she looks kind of evil TBH

5 minutes ago, Boopsahoy said:

Maybe Lucifer convinced Cas the 2 of them in one body would be stronger than them as separate beings? Or its the Cas from the empty??? Remember the tie discrepancy>!

I've been saying all along that Cas isn't Cas

Do you mean the person in that cell who looks like he's all messed up?

Or do mean that maybe the Empty Creature came down too? Sorry I don't now what you mean LOL

Hmm but now that I think about it. Lucifer wasn't supposed to be able to get out of his meatsuit anymore. Hmmm this is peculiar.

OHHH maybe it's Asmodeus shifting into looking like Castiel.

Edited January 12, 2018 by catrox14

[gonzosgirrl]

Guessing the stiletto/hexbag/Rowena is 13x13. If Dean is punching Sam, one or the other of them is hexed/whammied - guessing it's Dean since we already know the witch sisters do something. The promo is exciting-looking on its face - I just keep getting this pit in my gut over Dean. Sigh. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if greasy-hair is Adam.

That WS promo... just... no. I hope for their sake Kathryn has as many fans as they think she does.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

That WS promo... just... no. I hope for their sake Kathryn has as many fans as they think she does.

I can't even get that promo to play. LOL. I think I'm happy about that.

[ILoveReading]

6 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Guessing the stiletto/hexbag/Rowena is 13x13. If Dean is punching Sam, one or the other of them is hexed/whammied - guessing it's Dean since we already know the witch sisters do something. The promo is exciting-looking on its face - I just keep getting this pit in my gut over Dean. Sigh. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if greasy-hair is Adam.

That WS promo... just... no. I hope for their sake Kathryn has as many fans as they think she does.

Adam/Original Michael was my first thought too.  I really hope it isn't.  Because it would just give the show more reasons to ignore Dean's connection.

I wonder if something bad happened to Dean at then end of episode 12, since Danneel's character is supposed to be a faith healer.

[AwesomO4000]

17 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

OHHH maybe it's Asmodeus shifting into looking like Castiel.

That makes sense since Asmodeus can do that kind of thing apparently. However I don't think he'd be able to fool angels or other demons who should be able to see through his disguise, right? Interesting that apparently Jack couldn't though, so maybe Asmodeus is even more powerful than I thought.

[Wayward Son]

I’m going to go with IMO the simplist (but not necessarily the correct) explanation and assume not!Cas is Asdemous shapeshifter into Cas’ form.

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I’m going to go with IMO the simplist (but not necessarily the correct) explanation and assume not!Cas is Asdemous shapeshifter into Cas’ form.

That was my thought, as well.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I wonder if something bad happened to Dean at then end of episode 12, since Danneel's character is supposed to be a faith healer.

I don't think her being a faith healer will have anything do with Dean or Sam. I think her faith his going to be Satanism or something else, and she's going to be there to heal Lucifer and give him back his powers. Or she's just a big ole fraud LOL. It almost looks like Castiel is lurking in the background behind her.

[ILoveReading]

Hopefully with Donna saying don't lie to God, that person in the cell might be Chuck

[catrox14]

Even though I also, came to that conclusion as well, as I noted, it does beg the question of why Asmodeu didn't shift into Cas from the get go? Why play around with the ruse over the phone? Did he have to somehow practice being Castiel. Polish his performance or something LOL? Gather his DNA to duplicate him? I mean he could have met up with them at any point. Other than the obvious answer of Misha wasn't available to be on screen in those episodes what is the in story reason for him to have not already done so. Why kidnap them and claim it's leverage against Sam and Dean?

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

Hopefully with Donna saying don't lie to God, that person in the cell might be Chuck

Wait, what about Gabriel?

[MysteryGuest]

I didn't really have a problem with the Wayward promo.  It was a bit clunky, but I think it will be in the beginning as they introduce all of the new characters to each other.  My only issue is that they need Claire to lose the attitude.  I thought she had turned things around a bit after wolfing out?  Apparently not.  The teenage brat routine's going to grow old fast...not to mention she's not really a teenager anymore.  She needs to grow up fast.

The Shaving Things preview looks great, as they always do.  It goes by much too fast for me to be able to figure out exactly what's going on.  It does look like we're in for some interesting stuff, though.  

Yay about Rowena!!  I'm very glad she's back, and still semi on the Winchester's side.  I'm sort of side-eyeing the idea that Dean gets duped by the two witch sisters.  I hope they don't have him getting drunk and inviting them both back to the bunker for some fun times.  But I can't imagine how else they get a hold of the book of spells.  It's not like they carry that book around with them.  

[catrox14]

Finally saw that promo. It's not awful but it's not great. I legit don't get the writing there though. If Jody calls Claire to say "Sam and Dean are on a hunting trip and they haven't been home in a few days. You need to come home" why is Claire saying "Surprise!" when she comes back. I thought maybe it was a flashback or something but Patience is there.  Does she come back here, then fights with Jody, Alex and Patience because Patience is wearing her shirt so she takes off again and THEN Jody calls her? It's weird.

[catrox14]

47 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I hope they don't have him getting drunk and inviting them both back to the bunker for some fun times.  But I can't imagine how else they get a hold of the book of spells.  It's not like they carry that book around with them.  

 I posted somewhere in this thread and in the bitter spoilers thread, a BTS video of Dean bringing the grimoire to them and Sam points a gun at them. It seems like they get Dean to bring it to them.

It's possible that Rowena is behind the whole thing. She knows they have it. I'm thinking maybe that's why Dean punches Sam. That maybe he's trying to stop Dean and the spell is compelling Dean to deliver it to them at all costs.  I dunno.

[MysteryGuest]

12 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 I posted somewhere in this thread and in the bitter spoilers thread, a BTS video of Dean bringing the grimoire to them and Sam points a gun at them. It seems like they get Dean to bring it to them.

It's possible that Rowena is behind the whole thing. She knows they have it. I'm thinking maybe that's why Dean punches Sam. That maybe he's trying to stop Dean and the spell is compelling Dean to deliver it to them at all costs.  I dunno.

That's a relief.  I didn't want Dean to screw up so badly by actually bringing them to the bunker.

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

That's a relief.  I didn't want Dean to screw up so badly by actually bringing them to the bunker.

I mean it's possible your scenario does happen but if it does, then I am giving up on Steve Yockey too. LOL

[bozodegama]

That’s a busy promo.  Cass looks like the empty Cass.  Same crazy look and smile.  So Donna’s now a bad ass and has lost her accent.  And Kaia’s good with guns.  Did the wayward girls take a 2 week hunter intensive course?  I hope that’s not Chuck.  They really need to use him sparingly or it will get foolish.  I do think that’s Adam/Michael at the end.  Maybe Lucifer let him out of the cage to help him kill au Michael or the opposite..  There’s so many characters now.  It looks exciting though.  I just hope there’s enough Sam and Dean (and Cass) screen time.

[catrox14]

Just now, bozodegama said:

Cass looks like the empty Cass.  Same crazy look and smile.

That was my first thought as well. I don't know though he kind of looked a bit like smug Casifer.

I was looking at whoever is behind Danneel/Sister Jo and I think now, it's actually Lucifer. The coat is too short to be Cas and I don't think it's Sam or Dean. Lucifer is wearing a similar colored coat, so I'm sticking with my original spec from way back that she's there to try and heal Lucifer. Unless in a swerve it's all a ruse and her power will be to send him back to Hell. But that would just be a repeat of Rowena's thing which is not to say they wouldn't do a redux but that would be kind of boring too.

[DittyDotDot]

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Even though I also, came to that conclusion as well, as I noted, it does beg the question of why Asmodeu didn't shift into Cas from the get go? Why play around with the ruse over the phone? Did he have to somehow practice being Castiel. Polish his performance or something LOL? Gather his DNA to duplicate him? I mean he could have met up with them at any point. Other than the obvious answer of Misha wasn't available to be on screen in those episodes what is the in story reason for him to have not already done so. Why kidnap them and claim it's leverage against Sam and Dean?

Probably because he didn't need to look like Castiel before?

4 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Hopefully with Donna saying don't lie to God, that person in the cell might be Chuck

I'm guessing it's our universe Micheal. And, I'm now retracting my statement that A Most Holy Man might be Lucifer-centric, could be Micheal-centric?

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Finally saw that promo. It's not awful but it's not great. I legit don't get the writing there though. If Jody calls Claire to say "Sam and Dean are on a hunting trip and they haven't been home in a few days. You need to come home" why is Claire saying "Surprise!" when she comes back. I thought maybe it was a flashback or something but Patience is there.  Does she come back here, then fights with Jody, Alex and Patience because Patience is wearing her shirt so she takes off again and THEN Jody calls her? It's weird.

Maybe Jodi calls Claire, tells her they need her help and she says she's busy, but later decides to come home and help out after all?

[catrox14]

17 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Probably because he didn't need to look like Castiel before?

I'm guessing it's our universe Micheal. And, I'm now retracting my statement that A Most Holy Man might be Lucifer-centric, could be Micheal-centric?

Maybe Jodi calls Claire, tells her they need her help and she says she's busy, but later decides to come home and help out after all?

re Cas:  Sure but why story wise  would he need to look like him now if not before when he needed to find Jack. Seems to me if Cas was supposed to be his leverage to finding Jack, then wouldn't he be better off just showing up as Cas long before now?

re: Claire : Maybe so. The "Surprise" and her behaving in such a contrite manner, implies she wasn't planning on going which would be contrary to what her voiceover was supposed to imply that she was going to really get right on that and save those boys. Which wouldn't surprise me with the promo monkeys being so off base with that voiceover.

[DittyDotDot]

10 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Sure but why story wise  would he need to look like him now if not before when he needed to find Jack. Seems to me if Cas was supposed to be his leverage to finding Jack, then wouldn't he be better off just showing up as Cas long before now?

He hasn't been in Sam and Dean's presence since he kidnapped Cass, so he hasn't needed to put up that charade. But, for whatever reason--which I'm thinking the boys are starting to get suspicious--he is now and has to don the disguise. What would be the point of him showing up as Cass before now? It's not like the boys know anything he doesn't know and it's more likely he would get caught out if he tried to impersonate Cass for too long. The phone calls are already risky enough. And I suspect Jack would be able to see the difference between Asemodeus and Cass so it would do him no good to do it in Jack's presence.

[catrox14]

4 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

He hasn't been in Sam and Dean's presence since he kidnapped Cass, so he hasn't needed to put up that charade. But, for whatever reason--which I'm thinking the boys are starting to get suspicious--he is now and has to don the disguise. What would be the point of him showing up as Cass before now? It's not like the boys know anything he doesn't know and it's more likely he would get caught out if he tried to impersonate Cass for too long. The phone calls are already risky enough. And I suspect Jack would be able to see the difference between Asemodeus and Cass so it would do him no good to do it in Jack's presence.

I'm saying that his reasons for not shifting into Castiel at the bar  knowing that Dean and Sam were going to go there, doesn't make a lot of sense.  He didn't capture Cas until after Jack disappeared. So my point is that he could have benefited from being near Dean and Sam to get intel on them and Jack. They were doing their own research anyway.

Why has he been pretending to be him over the phone instead of saying right away give me Jack or I kill Castiel? Isn't that what kidnappers do? Isn't that the point of leverage in this case? other than RL reasons that the show needed Cas off the board to set up the Wayward Sisters stuff and limited Misha episodes.

All that said, I think there could be an in story reason and that is that Asmodeus can't shift quickly into someone else or maybe in the case of Cas. it  might take him some time to actually change or change significantly enough to fool Dean. He would need Cas' memories etc to do it well and since it seems like when he shifted into being Donatello and the bartender, he was just wearing their faces and mannerisms and not actually possessing them which why wouldn't he have just done that is a whole other question other than avoiding exorcism I guess. IMO, he's limiting his contact because he has to do more work on becoming Castiel.

Anyway,  we're probably going in circles at this point so we can agree to disagree :)

Edited January 13, 2018 by catrox14