Spoilers With Speculation

[catrox14]

33 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Hee! Did you know that Demon Dean didn't pretend to be someone else... .

Sorry, I couldn't resist with a set up like that!! ;)

LOL I figured.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

Hee! Did you know that Demon Dean didn't pretend to be someone else... .

Sorry, I couldn't resist with a set up like that!! ;)

Hey @catrox14 Demon Dean didn't pretend to be someone else. Just in case you didn't know.

-9

:P

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Hey @catrox14 Demon Dean didn't pretend to be someone else. Just in case you didn't know.

-9

:P

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF LOLOL

[ahrtee]

So by those standards, in The Slice Girls, when Dean was pretending to be a successful businessman who spoke Japanese, and his hookup was pretending to be a non-Amazon human being, who was being "raped" there?

I'm sorry, but I have a hard time with the way the term "rape" gets bandied about so casually here.  To me, it's a very particular and horrible kind of violation, and equating lesser actions, (even if they're morally wrong, such as "uninformed consent"), to rape is diluting the horror and the power of the term.   I understand YMMV, but this has been bothering me for quite a while here.  

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, ahrtee said:

So by those standards, in The Slice Girls, when Dean was pretending to be a successful businessman who spoke Japanese, and his hookup was pretending to be a non-Amazon human being, who was being "raped" there?

I'm sorry, but I have a hard time with the way the term "rape" gets bandied about so casually here.  To me, it's a very particular and horrible kind of violation, and equating lesser actions, (even if they're morally wrong, such as "uninformed consent"), to rape is diluting the horror and the power of the term.   I understand YMMV, but this has been bothering me for quite a while here.  

 

I'm not intending to upset anyone when I use that term and I don't use it lightly or for any kind of shock value nor am I intending to be insensitive or throwing it around casually.  I don't now how else to talk about it. Consent is part of the legal definition of rape, like if someone is drugged, or being deceived it is considered rape because they don't have the capacity to consent to that activity.  I wish there was a way to talk about these issues in the show without hurting anyone.  I don't know if it can be put under spoiler since we are already in the spoiler thread.

Maybe we can ask a mod for  thread that folks can talk about this and others difficult topics related to the show? Because I do think it is valuable discussion and it is pertinent to the show.  

[SueB]

Just finished watching two new special features that were released to iTunes.  IMO there was an interesting future foreshadowing when they talked about the lessons learned from the BMoL and where it stands.
 

Quote

Dabb: "In some ways the British Men of Letters have laid out this very interesting path, of a very active, engaged, always-on, almost police force style of hunter, which did not exist before they showed up.  Is some version of that going to live on? There are things that we learn from people like that, even if you don't like them."
*scene plays of Sam convincing Dean to give the BMoL a try*
Brad Buckner: "Sam and Dean can't go take out the entire organization^ and they don't want to."
*scene of Dean telling Sam to go 'show those sons of bitches who's boss.' (in Jody's living room in 12.22)*
Brad: "So, it's sort of a standoff."
*scene of Mary shooting Ketch*
Brad: "It's sort of detente at the end of the season."
*scene of Jody shooting Hess in the head and her sliding down the wall*

^referring to the British HQ as well as American contingent

Continues on with Robert Berens talking about the boys doing the right thing. There's a scene of Sam giving his speech. Misha speaks about Sam and Dean showing more compassion and being more humane. Then....

Quote

Singer: The way the British Men of Letters go about things could be improved. They could show a little more humanity in the way they do things. 

The featurette reaffirms the different philosophies and ends with Dean telling Mary they 'save the world'. 

Foreshadowing/potential spoilers in the bold/italic emphasis in quotes above.

First, I think we've seen this coming since the BMoL were introduced. But now we've got Dabb saying that some elements of the path the BMoL laid out COULD live on.  Personally, I think that's precisely where the story is going.  The 'new normal' for Sam and Dean will be them organizing the American Hunters in some sort of more closely tied coalition rather than a collection of individuals in the same sub-culture.  With Bob Singer saying the BMoL approach could be improved, I think he's also indicating future story line, not just commenting on the past.

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, SueB said:

First, I think we've seen this coming since the BMoL were introduced. But now we've got Dabb saying that some elements of the path the BMoL laid out COULD live on.  Personally, I think that's precisely where the story is going.  The 'new normal' for Sam and Dean will be them organizing the American Hunters in some sort of more closely tied coalition rather than a collection of individuals in the same sub-culture.  With Bob Singer saying the BMoL approach could be improved, I think he's also indicating future story line, not just commenting on the past.

Bleh. I really don't want this to happen. I love the Hunters sub culture and how they are not particularly allied all the time. Meh. This does not endear me at all.

[SueB]

12 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Bleh. I really don't want this to happen. I love the Hunters sub culture and how they are not particularly allied all the time. Meh. This does not endear me at all.

It may be boring to you but I think it's the right move.  And they certainly have laid the groundwork. 

SO many complain of 'nothing new'.  Well, this is new.  It may not be to everyone's liking, but the series shifting to Sam and Dean making the lives of hunters a little better, a little safer -- I think after 12 years it shows forward progress.  The world of monsters is never going to go away.  Sam and Dean have clearly saved the world, but in terms of 'legacy', I think this approach could reshape how hunting is done in America.  They are (IMO) NEVER going to tread on Hunter independence. But they can cherry pick some of the good elements (like improved cross-communication, getting more backup for dangerous jobs, passing on the unique lore they have access too, etc... ) and make Hunting something that you live long enough to really retire from (as opposed to ending up monster chow).  

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

So by those standards, in The Slice Girls, when Dean was pretending to be a successful businessman who spoke Japanese, and his hookup was pretending to be a non-Amazon human being, who was being "raped" there?

This is a good question actually. Dean gave his real name and lied about his job and she lied about being a monster who was seeking to procreate without telling her victim that is what she was doing. 

[catrox14]

What would be cool and new is if the show stopped killing off all the Winchesters friends, frienemies and family for shock value.

27 minutes ago, SueB said:

It may be boring to you but I think it's the right move.  And they certainly have laid the groundwork. 

SO many complain of 'nothing new'.  Well, this is ne

[ahrtee]

20 minutes ago, SueB said:

But they can cherry pick some of the good elements (like improved cross-communication, getting more backup for dangerous jobs, passing on the unique lore they have access too, etc... ) and make Hunting something that you live long enough to really retire from (as opposed to ending up monster chow).

Isn't that kind of what Bobby (and later Garth) did, at least to some extent?  They coordinated hunts and hunters, including finding hunters to provide backup and contacting hunters to take on "unclaimed" hunts, researched and passed along information about lore and ways to deal with the monsters they found, and provided alibis and cover for fake IDs.  It seemed like most hunters knew (and called) Bobby for help when needed.  So the only real difference I could see would be to make it more organized and involving the whole hunting community instead of just random calls for help.  

But then they'd have to avoid the sense that (like the BMOL) they were sitting in some HQ gathering all the intel and then acting as dispatch for hunters.  Otherwise, it would make hunters into something like contract employees.  

[catrox14]

21 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Isn't that kind of what Bobby (and later Garth) did, at least to some extent?  They coordinated hunts and hunters, including finding hunters to provide backup and contacting hunters to take on "unclaimed" hunts, researched and passed along information about lore and ways to deal with the monsters they found, and provided alibis and cover for fake IDs.  It seemed like most hunters knew (and called) Bobby for help when needed.  So the only real difference I could see would be to make it more organized and involving the whole hunting community instead of just random calls for help.  

But then they'd have to avoid the sense that (like the BMOL) they were sitting in some HQ gathering all the intel and then acting as dispatch for hunters.  Otherwise, it would make hunters into something like contract employees.  

It seems to me if they had an HQ that isn't an underground bunker, aren't they itting ducks for attack like the BMOL were?

Part of the security of loose network of hunters was that they were all out doing their stuff and getting  help when needed. Wasn't their independence part of what kept them safe from monsters and demons to the extent that they couldn't give up the names of other hunters to monsters and demons and the BMOL. 

I don't understand if the boys were going to take any pages from the BMOL, why did Sam permit the hunters to blow up the compound that was filled with books, computers, and weaponry?

[Jonesy]

2 hours ago, SueB said:

It may be boring to you but I think it's the right move.  And they certainly have laid the groundwork. 

SO many complain of 'nothing new'.  Well, this is new.  It may not be to everyone's liking, but the series shifting to Sam and Dean making the lives of hunters a little better, a little safer -- I think after 12 years it shows forward progress.  The world of monsters is never going to go away.  Sam and Dean have clearly saved the world, but in terms of 'legacy', I think this approach could reshape how hunting is done in America.  They are (IMO) NEVER going to tread on Hunter independence. But they can cherry pick some of the good elements (like improved cross-communication, getting more backup for dangerous jobs, passing on the unique lore they have access too, etc... ) and make Hunting something that you live long enough to really retire from (as opposed to ending up monster chow).  

I'm fine with Dean and Sam leading a humane version of an American Men of Letters--in fact it seems to me to be the next logical step for the boys and the legacy they talked to each other about this year.

Edited June 5, 2017 by Jakes

[Aeryn13]

For me that depends entirely on if it`s more of Dabb`s version of "the Winchesters" or actually the Winchesters. I have no desire whatsoever to see more scenes like in the penultimate episode in this regard.     

[DittyDotDot]

3 hours ago, Jakes said:

I'm fine with Dean and Sam leading a humane version of an American Men of Letters--in fact it seems to me to be the next logical step for the boys and the legacy they talked to each other about this year.

Yeah, I think that's clearly what this whole season has been leading to--blending the MoL knowledge and resources with the hunter community to make a new organization. I still think the MoL in general flies in the face of the show we once had, but I think it's the clear progression they've been working towards almost from the moment they introduced the MoL. It all depends on what they actually do with it on whether I'll be cool with it.

I think I can live with it if it's a true blending and not just them wanting to change the show into something more modern and high-tech. I'd like to see them incorporate more hunter solutions again and let them get some dirt under their fingernails once in a while. And, I want to meet these hunters they're organizing, not just hear about them off screen. I want them to be fully-fleshed characters, not just a bunch of red shirts who die in each episode.

I wouldn't say it's something completely new, it is basically what Bobby did, but it's something neither Sam or Dean have ever done. They've always stood outside the hunter community in many ways and I think this is an opportunity for them to become a part of that community and explore more of their Campbell history too. 

So, all-in-all, it could work, it all depends on what they do with it.

[Jonesy]

31 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

For me that depends entirely on if it`s more of Dabb`s version of "the Winchesters" or actually the Winchesters. I have no desire whatsoever to see more scenes like in the penultimate episode in this regard.     

What they need to do is make sure BOTH Dean and Sam are the generals and not just Sam.  I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and they just wanted Dean to focus on Mary that episode. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

This is a good question actually. Dean gave his real name and lied about his job and she lied about being a monster who was seeking to procreate without telling her victim that is what she was doing. 

Moved to the Sexuality thread.

[Pondlass1]

That old adage 'united we stand, divided we fall' doesn't work for me in this instance.  I want the Winchesters free agents, rebels riding the open road, using their own wits - because it's sexy and exciting.  Nothing slows action like organization and management.  They've always hinted at an underground belly of hunters, kind of sharing - but not too much.  So there's that.  And that should be all.

The scenes of a handful of hunters raiding the BMOL secret headquarters were laugh out loud lame. I don't want more. If this is what the PTB have in mind for season 13, then they're making a mistake (IMO of course). 

Dean and Sam work alone and unsupervised. Dean would never behave anyway...

Edited June 5, 2017 by Pondlass1

[Jonesy]

2 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

That old adage 'united we stand, divided we fall' doesn't work for me in this instance.  I want the Winchesters free agents, rebels riding the open road, using their own wits - because it's sexy and exciting.  Nothing slows action like organization and management.  They've always hinted at an underground belly of hunters, kind of sharing - but not too much.  So there's that.  And that should be all.

The scenes of a handful of hunters raiding the BMOL secret headquarters were laugh out loud lame. I don't want more. If this is what the PTB have in mind for season 13, then they're making a mistake (IMO of course). 

Dean and Sam work alone and unsupervised. Dean would never behave anyway...

I anticipate if they do this--that Dean and Sam will still be free and loose own their own missions, they'd just also get everyone else ready for whatever comes...and I think they'll do this in a loose, democratic way--not bureaucratic at all.

[ILoveReading]

7 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Dean and Sam work alone and unsupervised. Dean would never behave anyway...

 

Season 1-11 Dean wouldn't, but s12 Dean just does what he's told.  (Unless someone found and threw away his valium.)

[Pondlass1]

5 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Unless someone found and threw away his valium.)

I know that's a joke, but it made me so sad.  Valium Dean - an apt description of the watered down Dean we got last season - when he was actually on screen. ::sob::

It's sad enough that angels and demons walk about in business suits.  I don't think the word 'organized hunters' belongs anywhere in this series. I hope they don't move in this direction.  

[DittyDotDot]

38 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

That old adage 'united we stand, divided we fall' doesn't work for me in this instance.  I want the Winchesters free agents, rebels riding the open road, using their own wits - because it's sexy and exciting.  Nothing slows action like organization and management.  They've always hinted at an underground belly of hunters, kind of sharing - but not too much.  So there's that.  And that should be all.

The scenes of a handful of hunters raiding the BMOL secret headquarters were laugh out loud lame. I don't want more. If this is what the PTB have in mind for season 13, then they're making a mistake (IMO of course). 

Dean and Sam work alone and unsupervised. Dean would never behave anyway...

Except, we haven't been watching that show for years now. I loved that show and I'd love to see it again. But, I also think this could be a way to get back to this show. It seems to me killing Crowley and Cass [or changing Cass] is and is an attempt to remove Hell and Heaven from the equation and get the boys back to hunting. No more never ending angelic civil wars and no more demons vying for control of Hell. I think the whole season was a transition from the larger world problems to the more human problems again. Or, at least that's my hope.

So, I'm not using the word organization in the corporate sense, but just that they have a network of humans they bring together and work with. They haven't really had that ever. They started to do it some in S2, but then literally burned it down with the Roadhouse--which, I cheered, BTW.  On occasion they've worked with other hunters, but they were never the binding force to their network. Sam and Dean have usually been on the periphery of the hunter community but never really a part of it like Bobby and Garth were. 

Basically, I'm envisioning more Celebrating the life of Asa Fox/Stuck in the Middle with You stuff and less Somewhere Between Heaven and Hell. Which seems to be pretty much what everyone has been asking them to do for years now.

[Jonesy]

4 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Except, we haven't been watching that show for years now. I loved that show and I'd love to see it again. But, I also think this could be a way to get back to this show. It seems to me killing Crowley and Cass [or changing Cass] is and is an attempt to remove Hell and Heaven from the equation and get the boys back to hunting. No more never ending angelic civil wars and no more demons vying for control of Hell. I think the whole season was a transition from the larger world problems to the more human problems again. Or, at least that's my hope.

So, I'm not using the word organization in the corporate sense, but just that they have a network of humans they bring together and work with. They haven't really had that ever. They started to do it some in S2, but then literally burned it down with the Roadhouse--which, I cheered, BTW.  On occasion they've worked with other hunters, but they were never the binding force to their network. Sam and Dean have usually been on the periphery of the hunter community but never really a part of it like Bobby and Garth were. 

Basically, I'm envisioning more Celebrating the life of Asa Fox/Stuck in the Middle with You stuff and less Somewhere Between Heaven and Hell. Which seems to be pretty much what everyone has been asking them to do for years now.

Yes its not a big organization most likely the boys will run--it will be an off shoot of their casual personality.  Don't think it would change the show drastically at all if they do it that way.

[gonzosgirrl]

10 hours ago, ahrtee said:

So by those standards, in The Slice Girls, when Dean was pretending to be a successful businessman who spoke Japanese, and his hookup was pretending to be a non-Amazon human being, who was being "raped" there?

I'm sorry, but I have a hard time with the way the term "rape" gets bandied about so casually here.  To me, it's a very particular and horrible kind of violation, and equating lesser actions, (even if they're morally wrong, such as "uninformed consent"), to rape is diluting the horror and the power of the term.   I understand YMMV, but this has been bothering me for quite a while here.  

Your mileage doesn't vary from mine. I agree with you completely.

9 hours ago, SueB said:

Just finished watching two new special features that were released to iTunes.  IMO there was an interesting future foreshadowing when they talked about the lessons learned from the BMoL and where it stands.
 

Continues on with Robert Berens talking about the boys doing the right thing. There's a scene of Sam giving his speech. Misha speaks about Sam and Dean showing more compassion and being more humane. Then....

The featurette reaffirms the different philosophies and ends with Dean telling Mary they 'save the world'. 

Foreshadowing/potential spoilers in the bold/italic emphasis in quotes above.

First, I think we've seen this coming since the BMoL were introduced. But now we've got Dabb saying that some elements of the path the BMoL laid out COULD live on.  Personally, I think that's precisely where the story is going.  The 'new normal' for Sam and Dean will be them organizing the American Hunters in some sort of more closely tied coalition rather than a collection of individuals in the same sub-culture.  With Bob Singer saying the BMoL approach could be improved, I think he's also indicating future story line, not just commenting on the past.

For me, and I'm sure my mileage definitely varies here, stuff like this only reaffirms my sense that Dabb is writing/plotting towards a spinoff, if not an end to the series as we know it. I've felt all through S12, both on the screen and through Dabb's comments/interviews that he doesn't care much about the Winchesters per se, certainly not Dean, and to a lesser extent, Sam.

Edited June 5, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[SueB]

For me, Sam and Dean hunting alone is a not just unrealistic but a disservice to the characters after 12 years of saving the world.  They know more, can do more, and effect more than any 12 hunters combined.  That's not arrogance, that's history.  It's what the "Hunters" featurette was saying as well.

When they talked about their legacies and carved their name into the table -- that's telling me right there that the characters want MORE than to have just fought the good fight, left the world in a better place, and die bloody.  They need to pass on what they know.  Help other hunters have a higher survival rate.  They are NOT going to have families and children as a legacy.  But they can have a hunting community who is more capable, more mutually supportive (as desired).  

Examples of "good":
- Without Cas to cure massive bleeding and cirrhosis of the liver, maybe they can find some spells that can sustain a hunter in an emergency until he can get treatment.
- Perhaps they can pass the Vampire cure and the Werewolf cure around and save more victims.  There's no need for those to be 'secrets'.
- I've said for years they need therapist.  Maybe they can recruit a network of doctors and therapists who are 'in the know' and willing to help out.
- Maybe they can set up some safe houses for hunters that they can go to for a respite.
- Maybe someone else can set-up some more roadhouses where people can gather.

There's TONS of directions to go that don't require 'bureaucracy' or 'obedience'.  Now, I suspect that they will still run into the Gordon Walkers of the world and some limitations will be set. Hunters have reputations, and anyone who's known to be more about the killing than the saving... well, they may not share too much with them.  Not a "code" but an ethos where the bumper sticker of "saving people, hunting things" is the VOLUNTARY 'price' of admission.  

 

And IF this is the direction of the show, and people don't like it.  Well, then it dies.  And IF it's the direction of the show and many people like it but some do not, those some can ALWAYS binge watch at the end of the season and cherry pick what they watch.  With DVRs, CW apps, Netflix, iTunes, and DVDs, the platforms for watching are really flexible.  With Twitter, Tumblr, and forums... the 'gist' of episodes is known shortly after airing.  People can pick and choose what they want to watch.  And leave the rest behind.

Gone are the days of 3 + PBS stations where there are few shows and only one opportunity to see a show.  There are so many ways to tailor this to what you want (within the limitations of what the show is willing to produce).  It seems to me the viewers have a ton of choices in response to show direction (depending on if they like it or not).  

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

For me, and I'm sure my mileage definitely varies here, stuff like this only reaffirms my sense that Dabb is writing/plotting towards a spinoff, if not an end to the series as we know it. I've felt all through S12, both on the screen and through Dabb's comments/interviews that he doesn't care much about the Winchesters per se, certainly not Dean, and to a lesser extent, Sam.

I think he's morphing the show to a more sustainable future.  And if some set of hunters (likely skewing younger) catch 'fire' from a fandom perspective, they'll spin-off.  But Dabb is IMO putting the Winchesters and their legacy as the focal point of the series.  I don't think he's ignoring them at all. YMMV.

[Pondlass1]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Dabb is writing/plotting towards a spinof

This is my sense too.  Actually I thought it blatantly obvious and one of the reasons season 12 was so bland. The show is in its December, and Dabb has been tasked with finding another hit.  Let's face it, Season 12 wasn't even about the Winchesters most of the time.  

 

9 hours ago, SueB said:

police force style of hunter

If this ^ is what Dabb has in mind for the spin-off, I hope he doesn't incorporate the idea or it'll be the death of season 13.  Remember Buffy and the Potentials season 7?

[gonzosgirrl]

2 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

This is my sense too.  Actually I thought it blatantly obvious and one of the reasons season 12 was so bland. The show is in its December, and Dabb has been tasked with finding another hit.  Let's face it, Season 12 wasn't even about the Winchesters most of the time.  

 

If this ^ is what Dabb has in mind for the spin-off, I hope he doesn't incorporate the idea or it'll be the death of season 13.  Remember Buffy and the Potentials season 7?

I personally feel like every sound Dabb makes is a death-knell for Supernatural, at least for the show I want to watch.

[Pondlass1]

10 minutes ago, SueB said:

Without Cas to cure massive bleeding and cirrhosis of the liver

lol

 

12 minutes ago, SueB said:

Help other hunters have a higher survival rate.

I think it would be boring to watch. But that's just me.  I'm the one that wants the bunker blown to bits.

[Jonesy]

Don't see Dabb as obviously writing for a spinoff and don't see him not caring about Dean or Sam...they are still obviously the center of the show.  The J's want more time off and the show is working with them.  And also as a big Dean fan--do NOT see the show watering down Dean this year.  What Dabb did do was mature Dean and Sam in having more tolerance for mistakes among the brothers and Cas...which is good.

2 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

lol

 

I think it would be boring to watch. But that's just me.  I'm the one that wants the bunker blown to bits.

I love the bunker!

[Pondlass1]

1 minute ago, Jakes said:

which is good.

I'm glad you are enjoying the show Jakes.  I hate that I feel this jaded and cynical about a show I once loved.  I've always defended Supernatural.  I've been a rabid fan since 2012.  But seasons 11 and 12 were the worst.  I blame the uninspired writing with SLs that blast onto the screen and then fizzle and go nowhere.

[SueB]

6 minutes ago, Jakes said:

Don't see Dabb as obviously writing for a spinoff and don't see him not caring about Dean or Sam...they are still obviously the center of the show.  The J's want more time off and the show is working with them.  And also as a big Dean fan--do NOT see the show watering down Dean this year.  What Dabb did do was mature Dean and Sam in having more tolerance for mistakes among the brothers and Cas...which is good.

Well stated.  I don't want grudge-holding Dean.  

[gonzosgirrl]

8 minutes ago, Jakes said:

Don't see Dabb as obviously writing for a spinoff and don't see him not caring about Dean or Sam...they are still obviously the center of the show.  The J's want more time off and the show is working with them.  And also as a big Dean fan--do NOT see the show watering down Dean this year.  What Dabb did do was mature Dean and Sam in having more tolerance for mistakes among the brothers and Cas...which is good.

I don't disagree that Dean has grown as a character, but I absolutely saw him being watered down when it came to any and all big kills, excluding of course "Hitler" which was reduced to a running joke even as it was happening. Sam didn't fare a lot better growth-wise, but Dabb's love for him as the big bad hero certainly made up for it. (I know, I know, Bitch v Jerk).  I do want to see some new characters and I'm happy to see most of the surviving friends they do have back, but I want them with Dean and Sam, not instead of, and that's how Dabb & Co. make me see them.

ETA: I don't want grudge holding Dean either (who does?), or manufactured brother-angst, but there is a world of possibility between that and a show where they are reduced to being the "Bobby".

Edited June 5, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[bozodegama]

Hey what exactly happened to the "cosmic consequences" of killing Billy.  It wasn't a nephilim being born because Kelly was pregnant before that.  Could it be something in season 13 or is it just a plot twist that they forgot about?  This season's ending was confusing and disjointed for me.  I do think they're going to end supernatural after next season (or season 14 at the latest).  The ratings are going down, the writing is getting worse and they are running out of plot lines to create.  If they are going to do a spinoff, they definitely need younger, better looking actors/actresses than the current motley band of hunters they have now.  

[ILoveReading]

I think a large problem with the whole organizing other hunters plot would end up with  the same thing that plagued souless Sam.  Inconsistency.  No writer was on the same page about what it meant to be souless.   They don't work together and I feel like 'organizing' would turn out far more like 'making a bigger mess' because each writer would put their own spin on what exactly "organizing mean.

 

Quote

-do NOT see the show watering down Dean this year. 

Will respond in Bitch/Jerk because I know my answer will go there.

Edited June 5, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Pondlass1]

2 minutes ago, bozodegama said:

they definitely need younger, better looking actors

I am aghast!  I need a cup of tea...

[Jonesy]

11 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I'm glad you are enjoying the show Jakes.  I hate that I feel this jaded and cynical about a show I once loved.  I've always defended Supernatural.  I've been a rabid fan since 2012.  But seasons 11 and 12 were the worst.  I blame the uninspired writing with SLs that blast onto the screen and then fizzle and go nowhere.

Don't get me wrong--it's not perfect and not up to seasons 1 thru 5 but yes I still much enjoy the show and cast and subject matter.  Not always strong writing but still the show has many pluses for me.

9 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't disagree that Dean has grown as a character, but I absolutely saw him being watered down when it came to any and all big kills, excluding of course "Hitler" which was reduced to a running joke even as it was happening. Sam didn't fare a lot better growth-wise, but Dabb's love for him as the big bad hero certainly made up for it. (I know, I know, Bitch v Jerk).  I do want to see some new characters and I'm happy to see most of the surviving friends they do have back, but I want them with Dean and Sam, not instead of, and that's how Dabb & Co. make me see them.

I don't know,  personally I didn't see Dean as watered down but that's my take.  I do think the writing could be better for all the characters(though not horrible by any means at all) but I wouldn't go as far as watered down imo. 

Edited June 5, 2017 by Jakes

[catrox14]

I never wanted them, but especially Dean to be the new Bobby or Garth. I never wanted them to run the Winchester Hunter Network in any kind of organized fashion.

I loved that other hunters talked about them in the Asa Fox episode as folk heroes. They have even more legacy than word of mouth, what with Chuck's books still being in Crowley's Cache of Crap and those that are still out on the interwebz.  Their legacy is in the people they saved according to Sam. They have a legacy in Heaven and Hell as those pain in the ass denim wrapped ( and occasionally really well dressed) nightmares.

But then I also want the boys to go out in a blaze of glory in an angst filled, sob fest, heroic save the world moment. And/or the end Jensen said he dreamed that Sam had died (presumably when he and Dean were saving the world) and he got out of the car, traded it for someone's motorcycle and took off into parts and a life unknown. My addition to Jensen's ending is that Dean is seen putting a few things in a back pack or saddle bags: his and Sam's gun, the demon knife, Cas' angel blade either because Cas has died or he's gone back to Heaven and he's given it to Dean, a flask filled with holy water and another filled with whiskey, John's journal, Sam's iPad of Lore, an EMF detector, some fake IDs, family pictures, sunscreen and a pair of flip flops. Maybe he takes a vacation and then decides to keep hunting, alone, like when we met him in the pilot or he throws all of it into the ocean. Either way the final scene is him driving down a back road in the opposite direction of a sign that reads "Welcome to Lawrence, KS".

[ahrtee]

10 minutes ago, bozodegama said:

If they are going to do a spinoff, they definitely need younger, better looking actors/actresses than the current motley band of hunters they have now.  

That's the problem with all current (CW) shows (at least):  too many young, beautiful actors and not enough "character".  They always seem more careful not to ruin their hair/makeup and get their good angles (and that goes for the men as well as the women) than getting dirty while saving the world.  

I know I'm old and cranky, but I'd go with Rufus, Bobby, Jody, Wally and most of the hunters (other than Walt and Roy) over any of the young and beautiful people (and that includes the Banes twins).  But I know that TPTB are aiming for a younger demographic these days.  (It's hard being obsolete!)  

[DittyDotDot]

9 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

That's the problem with all current (CW) shows (at least):  too many young, beautiful actors and not enough "character".  They always seem more careful not to ruin their hair/makeup and get their good angles (and that goes for the men as well as the women) than getting dirty while saving the world.  

I know I'm old and cranky, but I'd go with Rufus, Bobby, Jody, Wally and most of the hunters (other than Walt and Roy) over any of the young and beautiful people (and that includes the Banes twins).  But I know that TPTB are aiming for a younger demographic these days.  (It's hard being obsolete!)  

Old farts UNITE!!! ;)

[ILoveReading]

I think a spin off will be Wayward Daughters. 

[bozodegama]

I'm a 55 year old guy but I'm sure that there can't be a spinoff with any of those hunters that were sitting on the couch in Jody's house or any of the hunters currently shown.  Some of those dudes looked way older than me.  Even Bobby, who i love, is looking a little long in the tooth and has a pretty big pot belly.  If they found Jared and Jensen, they can find other men/women who are attractive and rugged enough to do a spinoff.  I'm still pissed that they killed off the hunter Wally who I thought had great potential as a wise-ass hunter but they neutered him in the next episode.  They probably need millenial age actors/actresses in their 20's unfortunately for a spinoff to get a wide audience.  

[SueB]

29 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I never wanted them, but especially Dean to be the new Bobby or Garth. I never wanted them to run the Winchester Hunter Network in any kind of organized fashion.

I loved that other hunters talked about them in the Asa Fox episode as folk heroes. They have even more legacy than word of mouth, what with Chuck's books still being in Crowley's Cache of Crap and those that are still out on the interwebz.  Their legacy is in the people they saved according to Sam. They have a legacy in Heaven and Hell as those pain in the ass denim wrapped ( and occasionally really well dressed) nightmares.

But then I also want the boys to go out in a blaze of glory in an angst filled, sob fest, heroic save the world moment. And/or the end Jensen said he dreamed that Sam had died (presumably when he and Dean were saving the world) and he got out of the car, traded it for someone's motorcycle and took off into parts and a life unknown. My addition to Jensen's ending is that Dean is seen putting a few things in a back pack or saddle bags: his and Sam's gun, the demon knife, Cas' angel blade either because Cas has died or he's gone back to Heaven and he's given it to Dean, a flask filled with holy water and another filled with whiskey, John's journal, Sam's iPad of Lore, an EMF detector, some fake IDs, family pictures, sunscreen and a pair of flip flops. Maybe he takes a vacation and then decides to keep hunting, alone, like when we met him in the pilot or he throws all of it into the ocean. Either way the final scene is him driving down a back road in the opposite direction of a sign that reads "Welcome to Lawrence, KS".

I don't think they are simply going to be the new Bobby.  Now Mary may fill that roll, but I don't see them manning the phones or doing someone else's research while others hunt.  

As for the way the series ends, I wonder if them having the 'blaze of glory' conversation was a Meta nod to that type of ending. With Dean getting to use the grenade launcher.  And because they survived (yet again), their actual 'end' will be something different.  The fart cloud in 11.20 was also very Butch and Sundance prior to Chuck's intervention.  Just seems like they've already 'done that' and it didn't stick. I expect something more cosmic now. 

Edited June 5, 2017 by SueB

[companionenvy]

I feel like the ship on a spin-off has sailed. SPN just doesn't have enough of a built-in viewer base anymore, IMO, to make selling a new show as a spin-off of it a plus, especially given that calling something a spinoff of another show is going to scare away potential viewers who say "Well, I didn't watch SPN, so guess I can't watch Wayward Daughters either." You'd have to be really confident in getting a bunch of SPN viewers to follow you to counteract that.

[ahrtee]

Just now, SueB said:

I don't think they are simply going to be the new Bobby.  Now Mary may fill that roll, but I don't see them manning the phones or doing someone else's research while others hunt.  

As for the way the series ends, I wonder if them having the 'blaze of glory' conversation was. Meta nod to that type of ending. With Dean getting to use the grenade launcher.  And because they survived (yet again), their actual 'end' will be something different.  The fart cloud in 11.20 was also very Butch and Sundance prior to Chuck's intervention.  Just seems like they've already 'done that' and it didn't stick. I expect something more cosmic now. 

I actually can't see them manning phones and doing support. I could see them setting up the bunker for HQ, though, with a crew of people to do the stay-at-home stuff (if Charlie were still around, she'd be the Research Geek).  Sam and Dean would be the nominal leaders (the ones to make the decisions) but would go hunt whenever they get bored/are needed.  And while Sam might be happy researching, I can't see Dean, at least, being willing to sit behind a desk and coordinate things, and I can't see Sam watching Dean go off hunting without him.  

About the "blaze of glory" ending...not only don't I want it (too cliched by now) but it also would kind of negate the "AKF" message they've been pushing--as well as the "find another way" and "just keep grinding" ones.  I don't think they'd want to glorify death even in a good cause (though I suppose they could use it effectively to show the damage it does to the ones left behind...)  (Maybe that's why, even though the body count has been ratcheted way up lately, the deaths themselves have been made more pointless?)

[Aeryn13]

Quote

That's the problem with all current (CW) shows (at least):  too many young, beautiful actors and not enough "character". 

I don`t think young and beautiful is necessarily the problem. I`m not in the target demo for CW anymore but I still watch a lot of its shows because I like genre. And while the network average of youngish and exceptionally beautiful might be higher than the other networks, that doesn`t mean all are bad shows with badly written characters. Some shows have a mix of youngers/more mature actors and for me it works.

IMO the problem with Supernatural is that the guys aren`t yet at the old, wise mentor-age. That`s why I don`t like any notion of "Dean is proud Sam grew up into such a hero and steps back", like in the penultimate episode. Sure, the old mentor (who had his adventures in his own time and prime) is a staple of the hero journey. But that`s a role that is meant to fade from the story and not have an equal presence. It`s not something for a co-lead of equally young age. Like, WTF?

Same with them "leading" US hunters. What? Is Sam gonna give more speeches and proclaim he wants them to follow him? On what grounds? And if Dean is included, I don`t think he would give such a speech in the first place. Being chosen as a leader or stepping up when the situation arises is much different than basically crowning yourself king of something. 

I don`t care what kind of legacy or reputation they have, the impetus for such an organization can`t come from the Winchesters themselves. So far, noone died and made them king.   

[catrox14]

T

54 minutes ago, bozodegama said:

 If they are going to do a spinoff, they definitely need younger, better looking actors/actresses than the current motley band of hunters they have no

The main reason I ever stuck with SPN beyond Jensen's acting and the pretty that is Dean and Sam, the show itself had far more normal looking yet attractive people and characters who felt real to me.  I mean for me that was part of the problem with stupid Bloodlines. It was all about young pretty people who were cookie cutter and boring.  It was trying too hard to be young and hip.

Sure they have to bring in attractive people because it's TV but not everyone in the world is beautiful and young. One thing I have always appreciated about this show is that they have had people of all kinds in the show, older,young, pretty, okay looking, unconventional characters. I wish they did better with PoC and more women like Jody and Donna.  Mary was uninteresting to me because someone thought just by making her a badass the moment she was resurrected that would be AWESOME. Well for me that was stupid.  Give her like 3 episodes before she had to kill someone to show that she was really messed up from being resurrected. More time on that and less time on Mary encouraging Cas to torture someone.  But I digress.

I loved  the hunter funeral because it was such a mish mash of eccentric characters and those are the kind of people that would be hunters IMO. 

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, SueB said:

I don't think they are simply going to be the new Bobby.  Now Mary may fill that roll, but I don't see them manning the phones or doing someone else's research while others hunt.  

Yeah, I don't get the sense either Sam or Dean will be the new Bobby. That's not who Sam and Dean are and not at all what I feel like they've set up--they kick ass and save the world, ya know? ;)

Personally, I think probably why they had Sam take a more leadership role at the end of the season was to put him on a more even footing with Dean so they can both be leading the network of hunters next season together. People naturally follow Dean, I thin this was an attempt to put Sam's past breaking the world behind them and move forward now. That was my sense of all the nonsense anyway.

35 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

I feel like the ship on a spin-off has sailed. SPN just doesn't have enough of a built-in viewer base anymore, IMO, to make selling a new show as a spin-off of it a plus, especially given that calling something a spinoff of another show is going to scare away potential viewers who say "Well, I didn't watch SPN, so guess I can't watch Wayward Daughters either." You'd have to be really confident in getting a bunch of SPN viewers to follow you to counteract that.

I think SPN still has a built in viewer base to support a spin off, but I just don't think there's enough story left to tell in a real and true spin off. I think they've shrunk the universe too much over the last few years. However, if they really do organize the hunter community, I think that could lead to a possible spin off.

Regardless, I don't think Dabb has been writing for a spin off. He already did that and it failed. I think he's very focused on Sam and Dean and the current show he has to work with, myself.

[MysteryGuest]

I don't see Sam and Dean turning into nothing but mentors and dispatchers for other hunters.  They enjoy the action too much.  I can see them utilizing the Bunker to its full potential, however, and sharing the wealth of supernatural knowledge that's stored there with other hunters.  I'd be fine with the occasional joint hunt, but I don't want it to turn into BMOL II.  

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

It seems to me killing Crowley and Cass [or changing Cass] is and is an attempt to remove Hell and Heaven from the equation and get the boys back to hunting. No more never ending angelic civil wars and no more demons vying for control of Hell. I think the whole season was a transition from the larger world problems to the more human problems again. Or, at least that's my hope.

This would be my hope too, and I'd agree with you except for the ever-present Lucifer.  If they truly wanted to get away from Heaven/Hell conflict, then why keep him around and double down with Lucifer, Jr.?  I'm not at all happy that Crowley is gone, because I genuinely enjoyed him.  But I could accept losing Crowley if they'd allowed him to clean up his mess and get rid of Lucifer for good.  But they didn't do that, so now we're stuck with boring Lucifer, and have lost fun Crowley.  It seems like a piss poor trade off to me.

I think the show could go on for a few more years with decent writers and a show runner who actually likes the concept of Supernatural.  If the writing remains sub par, and the storyline changes too much, then I agree that it will be gone soon.  

[DittyDotDot]

17 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

This would be my hope too, and I'd agree with you except for the ever-present Lucifer.

Or did they just lock Lucifer away again? I'm not convinced we'll see much--or any--of Lucifer again. At first I thought they'd do the alternative universe in concert with our universe and then bridge it all back together around mid-season, but the more I think about it, the more I wonder if that was it for Mary and Lucifer? I mean, they really can't sustain the amount of visual effects it takes to make the alternate universe for many episodes and, it just seems to me they were basically saying that Sam and Dean had gotten closure on Mary and now it's time for them to move forward.

I really don't know. I will say, this is the first season in forever where there are a lot of possibilities and no clear sign of where it's all going. TBH, I found the finale quite underwhelming when watching it, but the more I think about it, I think it might be one of their better ones in a while. Just depends on how they move forward, I guess?

Edited June 5, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[ahrtee]

2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I mean, they really can't sustain the amount of visual effects it takes to make the alternate universe for many episodes and, it just seems to me they were basically saying that Sam and Dean had gotten closure on Mary and now it's time for them to move forward.

I don't think they can just shrug off leaving Mary in the AU after all the fuss about Sam not looking for Dean in Purgatory.  They would have to at least try.  Besides, isn't MP still in the cast?