Spoilers With Speculation

[AwesomO4000]

36 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

How about 'Thanks for supporting me even if you didn't believe in it, because I asked you to (and I've scorned you for not having any faith in me in the past)'. Does Dean deserve that?

Responding in the bitterness thread.

[MysteryGuest]

Dean did agree to work with the BMOL, but he only did it to appease Sam and Mary.  They both know he was against it from the beginning, and continues to be against having to report to them, based on his constant remarks every time he has to speak with Ketch, and pretty much even when he was dealing with Mick.  I don't think Sam would be groveling or debasing himself to acknowledge that Dean was right, and that he should have gone with his own first instincts about the BMOL.  I know it's something I would do with my siblings if I had tricked them into doing something they were on record not to want to do, and things went south in a big way.  

As usual, my issue is with the writing.  It would have been so much better to just have Sam talk to Dean on the way home from the BMOL headquarters that same night.  He could have said all the things he said to Dean when he was apologizing for lying, and the story could have played out exactly the same way.  Only they wouldn't have needed to make Sam lie.  I get that sometimes the characters are made to do things we don't agree with, just to further the plot, but there was no reason for that to even need to happen here.  

Regarding Mary, I don't need her to apologize for her distance from the boys, but she does owe them a serious apology for getting them involved with the BMOL, for lying about the Colt, for getting Wally killed and for almost getting Cas killed, along with the rest of them.  What we got was an "I screwed up, but...", which for me isn't really an apology, it's an attempt at justification.  Both Sam and Dean will forgive her instantly, in fact I think they already have, but it still needs to be said by Mary, IMO.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I don't think Sam would be groveling or debasing himself to acknowledge that Dean was right, and that he should have gone with his own first instincts about the BMOL.  I know it's something I would do with my siblings if I had tricked them into doing something they were on record not to want to do, and things went south in a big way.  

Again, moved to All Eps, since this ain't about Spoilers, really.  Imo.

[catrox14]

[Demented Daisy]

I wonder if he capitalized that D on purpose.  If you're not a Stephen King fan, you won't get the reference, but....

Meanwhile, I wonder what's he got behind his back?  Other than his hand, of course.  That's not a natural pose.  ;-)

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

Meanwhile, I wonder what's he got behind his back?  Other than his hand, of course.

::snort:: Way to ruin that set up for me, Demented One! ;)

[Demented Daisy]

See, I struggled, I really did.  Part of me said, "Leave the set up.  Let's see who knocks it down."  

But the bitch in me won in the end (as it often does) and said, instead, "Let's ruin all their fun!  Muahahahahahahaha!"  ;-)

[DittyDotDot]

5 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

See, I struggled, I really did.  Part of me said, "Leave the set up.  Let's see who knocks it down."  

But the bitch in me won in the end (as it often does) and said, instead, "Let's ruin all their fun!  Muahahahahahahaha!"  ;-)

Hee! Well, twirl your mustache some more--I'm not going to let you ruin any of my fun!!! ;)

ETA: He's probably got an arm and some fingers--with fingernails--behind his back! ;)

Edited May 11, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[gonzosgirrl]

58 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm betting he's got another Super!Sekrit!British!Men!Of!Letters weapon in his hand. Lordy, please let somebody stab this guy in the face before it's all said and done next week.

Sidenote: does anyone else giggle when they refer to themselves as the British Men of Letters? I mean, wouldn't they just be Men of Letters?

Edited May 11, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[AwesomO4000]

But the best villains are British, don't you know... They probably drive Jag-u-ires for sport. (It would be a Rolls Royce during business hours a la Lady LadyPenelopeCreighton-WardWannaBe). I'm sure - for them - the distinction is important. ; )

[catrox14]

45 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I'm betting he's got another Super!Sekrit!British!Men!Of!Letters weapon in his hand. Lordy, please let somebody stab this guy in the face before it's all said and done next week.

Sidenote: does anyone else giggle when they refer to themselves as the British Men of Letters? I mean, wouldn't they just be Men of Letters?

I listen to the Road So Far Podcast and they call them the Bletters which makes me laugh.

[ILoveReading]

https://www.tvinsider.com/191308/supernatural-david-haydn-jones-interview-arthur-ketch/

New interview with Ketch,

So it seems like they're going to brainwash Mary.  I'm guessing that is why they seem to be releasing her.  So she can get close enough and possibly attempt to kill Sam and Dean.

I really want to see Dean punch Ketch in the face.

[Diane]

[gonzosgirrl]

5 minutes ago, Diane said:

Ironic, because Dabb's Supernatural is making *me* die inside a little each week.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

18 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

So it seems like they're going to brainwash Mary.  I'm guessing that is why they seem to be releasing her.  So she can get close enough and possibly attempt to kill Sam and Dean.

That would be pretty interesting, I think.  If this is what happens, I would like to see that storyline carry over into more than one episode.  Seems like it should be something that would last longer than that.  

[Idahoforspn]

21 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

https://www.tvinsider.com/191308/supernatural-david-haydn-jones-interview-arthur-ketch/

 

I really want to see Dean punch Ketch in the face.

This! Please! This!

[gonzosgirrl]

24 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

https://www.tvinsider.com/191308/supernatural-david-haydn-jones-interview-arthur-ketch/

New interview with Ketch,

So it seems like they're going to brainwash Mary.  I'm guessing that is why they seem to be releasing her.  So she can get close enough and possibly attempt to kill Sam and Dean.

I really want to see Dean punch shoot Ketch in the face.

Fixed it for you :P

ETA: It could be interesting, but not so dissimilar to the myriad I-can't-be-held-responsible-for-this-because-reasons storylines we've had.

Edited May 11, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[Jonesy]

24 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

https://www.tvinsider.com/191308/supernatural-david-haydn-jones-interview-arthur-ketch/

New interview with Ketch,

So it seems like they're going to brainwash Mary.  I'm guessing that is why they seem to be releasing her.  So she can get close enough and possibly attempt to kill Sam and Dean.

I really want to see Dean punch Ketch in the face.

This is what I was predicting yesterday--that the BMOL try to turn Mary against the boys to kill them(which is why we got a script snippet of Dean thinking he's finally reaching Mary)...I thought either brainwashing or turning her into something bad.  My second part of my prediction is that this will lead to Mary's death...eventually.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

So it seems like they're going to brainwash Mary.  I'm guessing that is why they seem to be releasing her.  So she can get close enough and possibly attempt to kill Sam and Dean.

Sounds like it. Though honestly, seeing as we haven`t seen Mary all that warm and loving towards them, I wouldn`t see a scene like that as all that shocking. After so many cold scenes, one where she tries to kill them as a brainwashed BMOL puppet, meh. `Such a concept is a lot more effective if a character is usually all love and rainbows for another(s) and is suddenly trying to harm them. 

And if they do the "love lets character X overcome conditioning", they did this multiple times on this show. Heck, they even already did it with Mary herself.  

Guess we`ll see. 

Quote

I really want to see Dean punch Ketch in the face.

I don`t see that happening. The major confrontation DHJ mentions is probably the shoot-out we saw in the promo. Beyond that, Ketch is primarily a Mary-character so I could see him being saved for her to defeat.  

I hope Dean gets some good action pieces in the episode but low expectations. 

[SueB]

So Ketch DOES have a crush on Mary.  I thought so, but I also thought there had been an interview saying differently.  Glad I was wrong.  

Yes, he needs to die a painful horrible death.

And there goes ANY chance of redemption for Lady McTorture.  

I wonder if Sam realizes she's brainwashed because HE was.  That would be a nice call back.  Lady McTorture specializes in mental manipulation being mentioned by Sam.  I don't think he told anyone his experience (which, why would he -- it's very personal and he probably figures not relevant). 

[Jonesy]

I do think Dean gets Ketch(the time he spent with him gets a call back and period)--I expect it to be bloody.  He's going to take it out on him for how he treated Mom.  Sam to get Lady McTorture.   Probably both done in 22.

Edited May 11, 2017 by Jakes

[SueB]

Under the category of "it'll never happen"... I would sure like Mary to express guilt over "breaking" and have both Sam and Dean acknowledge the time they broke too. Sam while trapped in Lady Toni's spell, Dean in Hell.   For the specific purpose of Mary getting to know her boys better.  

Edited May 11, 2017 by SueB

[Idahoforspn]

20 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

 

I hope Dean gets some good action pieces in the episode but low expectations. 

Their track record for Dean is pretty bad this season.IMO

[ILoveReading]

17 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Sounds like it. Though honestly, seeing as we haven`t seen Mary all that warm and loving towards them, I wouldn`t see a scene like that as all that shocking. After so many cold scenes, one where she tries to kill them as a brainwashed BMOL puppet, meh. `Such a concept is a lot more effective if a character is usually all love and rainbows for another(s) and is suddenly trying to harm them. 

And if they do the "love lets character X overcome conditioning", they did this multiple times on this show. Heck, they even already did it with Mary herself.  

Guess we`ll see. 

I don`t see that happening. The major confrontation DHJ mentions is probably the shoot-out we saw in the promo. Beyond that, Ketch is primarily a Mary-character so I could see him being saved for her to defeat.  

I hope Dean gets some good action pieces in the episode but low expectations. 

I'll be disappointed if Dean's confrontation with Mary is him trying to talk her out of killing him rather than just a moment between them that should have happened at the beginning of this season.   But the writers love repeating themselves and using this trope. 

But its what I expect to happen.  Because then it would explain why Sam and Dean only have each other in a dangerous situation, if Mary is after them. 

I'm not really excepting Dean to be the one who gets to take out Ketch, I figure it will be Mary or Sam.

[Idahoforspn]

Pure speculation...could the young Dean flashbacks happen to Mary when Lady-not-really -a-lady does a dream spell like she did with Sam? Probably not but maybe possible.

[Aeryn13]

Are the flashbacks and the Dean-talks-to-Mary (script snippet) scenes in this episode? I thought they were gonna be in episode 22? I reckon Mary is out of captivity by then, probably in this one already.  

[Jonesy]

4 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Are the flashbacks and the Dean-talks-to-Mary (script snippet) scenes in this episode? I thought they were gonna be in episode 22? I reckon Mary is out of captivity by then, probably in this one already.  

Yes I believe it is 22 and where I think we get some major Mary fireworks.

[Idahoforspn]

5 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Are the flashbacks and the Dean-talks-to-Mary (script snippet) scenes in this episode? I thought they were gonna be in episode 22? I reckon Mary is out of captivity by then, probably in this one already.  

I have no idea. Sorry!

2 minutes ago, Jakes said:

Yes I believe it is 22 and where I think we get some major Mary fireworks.

Ok. Thanks! I don't keep up on the details with the spoiler stuff.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Ironic, because Dabb's Supernatural is making *me* die inside a little each week.

Hmm sadly, I couldn't help but think of Dean in this situation. That something inside him has been dying a little each week since Mary came back.

 

35 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I'll be disappointed if Dean's confrontation with Mary is him trying to talk her out of killing him rather than just a moment between them that should have happened at the beginning of this season.   But the writers love repeating themselves and using this trope. 

But its what I expect to happen.  Because then it would explain why Sam and Dean only have each other in a dangerous situation, if Mary is after them. 

I'm not really excepting Dean to be the one who gets to take out Ketch, I figure it will be Mary or Sam.

I don't think this will be Dean doing it because he already had that beat in the Foundry when possessed!Mary was trying to kill him, by  freezing his heart....no symbolism there whatsoever. Interestingly, IMO, Dean's heart is under attack in many episodes see Faith, Love Hurts, and The Foundry, and I think a few other episodes that are escaping my memory right now.

I think Sam will be the one to talk Mary out of killing them or whatever other shenanigans they put her up to.

As to the dangerous situation in which they can only rely on one another, I thought that was 12.20? But I could be confusing things.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

39 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Hmm sadly, I couldn't help but think of Dean in this situation.

I thought of Mary - but after reading that interview, it could fit Ketch as well.  I don't think there's anything left inside Lady Deathbyelectrocutionistoogoodforher to die.  

[MysteryGuest]

If this brainwashing of Mary makes is so that one of her sons eventually has to kill her, I'm going to be pissed.  I would hope they wouldn't go there, but they do so love to fuck with Sam and Dean.  

[catrox14]

32 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

If this brainwashing of Mary makes is so that one of her sons eventually has to kill her, I'm going to be pissed.  I would hope they wouldn't go there, but they do so love to fuck with Sam and Dean.  

What might be even worse is if Cas kills her. I don't know what that would do to Sam and Dean, especially, given Dean was certain Cas was not himself. He might forgive him, or he might think Cas is a lost cause or just kills Cas out of anger. That would be the worst thing IMO.

[MysteryGuest]

I wonder if Cas is even going to be around for their showdown with the BMOL.  I know he's onboard for the Lucifer battle, but was he in the previews for this week?

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I wonder if Cas is even going to be around for their showdown with the BMOL.  I know he's onboard for the Lucifer battle, but was he in the previews for this week?

I didn't see him in the previews, but he might still have something to do.  It's 50/50 LOL

[MysteryGuest]

Well, I agree with you.  I don't want Cas having to kill Mary any more than I want Sam or Dean to have to do it.  It would suck all the way around.

[Wayward Son]

22 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I wonder if Cas is even going to be around for their showdown with the BMOL.  I know he's onboard for the Lucifer battle, but was he in the previews for this week?

I'm fairly certain Cas isn't due to appear until 12x23. He isn't included in the 12x22 synopsis or any of the stills released. I'm also fairly certain Misha was in LA while they were filming this ep, although I'm not 100% sure of that. 

 

ETA: Beyond that, from a storytelling purpose Id be surprised if they inserted him into 12x22. Bar a handful of minor interactions with the British Man of Letters, Castiel (and Crowley) have been pretty much MIA when it comes to the BMoL storylines. IMO this storyline is intended to be solely for the brothers and focused on the Winchesters. While Cas and Crowley got the main roles for the Lucifer and nepilihm storyline with the brothers playing supporting roles to them on that front. 

Edited May 11, 2017 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

5 hours ago, SueB said:

 I don't think he told anyone his experience (which, why would he -- it's very personal and he probably figures not relevant). 

See, I kind of don't understand this. Dean's Hell time and Sam's Satan visions were only relevant to each of them, thus keeping it to themselves I can understand, despite them each encouraging the other to talk about it. But this is relevant information as to how the BMOL operate. I'm still on the train that Sam doesn't remember that part of his torture because I just can't see him not disclosing this was part of their repertoire of evil deeds.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

If this brainwashing of Mary makes is so that one of her sons eventually has to kill her, I'm going to be pissed.  

Youch!  I didn't even think of that.

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

See, I kind of don't understand this. Dean's Hell time and Sam's Satan visions were only relevant to each of them, thus keeping it to themselves I can understand, despite them each encouraging the other to talk about it. But this is relevant information as to how the BMOL operate. I'm still on the train that Sam doesn't remember that part of his torture because I just can't see him not disclosing this was part of their repertoire of evil deeds.

While the information that she hocus-pocused Sam is relevant to how the BMoL operate, I don't think the details of that element of his interrogation are.  So, I could understand if he told Dean that she used some sort of combination spell/hallucinogenic drug during his torture that made him think Lady IwishIweremoreeloquentatcursingwhenitcomestoher was friendly and not the enemy, but not everything that he saw and thought happened to him.  That part is/was personal.  

I think Sam does remember.  At least he seemed to remember as soon as he came out it. 

[SueB]

So I did the slow-mo thing on the preview. Clearly it features bits from both episodes. The place that is not-Purgatory is cool. It reminds me of the Phantom Zone on Smallville. I wonder if this is where Cas is hiding Kelly Kline?  
They get out of the bunker pretty quickly.  But I'm not sure if Lady Toni makes it.

I liked all the hunters assaulting the BMoL headquarters. DIE HESS DIE!

[auntvi]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

 

While the information that she hocus-pocused Sam is relevant to how the BMoL operate, I don't think the details of that element of his interrogation are.  So, I could understand if he told Dean that she used some sort of combination spell/hallucinogenic drug during his torture that made him think Lady IwishIweremoreeloquentatcursingwhenitcomestoher was friendly and not the enemy, but not everything that he saw and thought happened to him.  That part is/was personal.  

I think Sam does remember.  At least he seemed to remember as soon as he came out it. 

My head canon is that he's ashamed that she was able to bewitch him into having sex. 

Edit: pretend sex

Edited May 12, 2017 by auntvi

[catrox14]

Just now, auntvi said:

My head canon is that he's ashamed that she was able to bewitch him into having sex. 

I guess I figured Sam would himself understand that was not in his control. I dunno, that's plot point that irritates me to no end. I don't like that he's not discussing because it's obviously, the way the show can avoid having to address the horribleness that is mind rape. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't like that he's not discussing because it's obviously, the way the show can avoid having to address the horribleness that is mind rape. 

I understand what you are saying, but I don't particularly want to see Sam talking about it either.  

[auntvi]

14 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I guess I figured Sam would himself understand that was not in his control.

I didn't say it made sense, it's because he's so screwed up.

9 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I understand what you are saying, but I don't particularly want to see Sam talking about it either.  

Agreed!!

[catrox14]

That's a problem though. They introduce the topic, show Sam being mind raped, and then drop it forever. I don't think Sam has to go into all the detail about but IMO, they should have him at least acknowledge it happened. I would appreciate one minor exchange between Dean and Sam where Sam says..something like "She did things to me. Made me feel things about her that I did not feel nor want to feel.".  Dean looks at Sam knowingly, thinking about how Amara controlled him, and says, "I get it, Sam. If you want to talk, you know where I am".  Just a simple thing that acknowledges what she did to him and that it's not being ignored by the narrative.

1 minute ago, auntvi said:

I didn't say it made sense, it's because he's so screwed up.

The problem is they haven't portrayed Sam as being all that screwed up. Not very clearly IMO. I've headcanon'd that he's TOO ZEN but the show itself is not explicitly and I don't know if Jared's acting is really making that clear.

Maybe the next episode it will come up in some way for Sam to get some payback or acknowledgment that a REALLY BIG THING was done to Sam. That's what I would like to see. I think it's important to the narrative myself for it to be at least cursorily discussed.

[Wynne88]

The previews show them in the bunker with all the lights on and everything.  Looks like they are still using it as home base, but maybe that's after the BMoL are killed off?  Who was the older man attacking Dame Whaterface?  I don't remember seeing him before.

[gonzosgirrl]

3 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

I'm fairly certain Cas isn't due to appear until 12x23. He isn't included in the 12x22 synopsis or any of the stills released. I'm also fairly certain Misha was in LA while they were filming this ep, although I'm not 100% sure of that. 

ETA: Beyond that, from a storytelling purpose Id be surprised if they inserted him into 12x22. Bar a handful of minor interactions with the British Man of Letters, Castiel (and Crowley) have been pretty much MIA when it comes to the BMoL storylines. IMO this storyline is intended to be solely for the brothers and focused on the Winchesters. While Cas and Crowley got the main roles for the Lucifer and nepilihm storyline with the brothers playing supporting roles to them on that front. 

And yet tonight, they reveal that he's had a longstanding agreement with the British douchebags. I just can't with this show right now.

[Wayward Son]

56 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And yet tonight, they reveal that he's had a longstanding agreement with the British douchebags. I just can't with this show right now.

Who has had this agreement Crowley or Cas? I haven't seen the episode yet!

Speaking of Crowley, Mark Shepherd was seen filming with Misha for the finale so Crowley is definitely not dead. 

[catrox14]

'm wondering about this other universe.

I see these weird pillars that look metallic and all the dead bodies. I think it's some other hell dimension.

[Wayward Son]

I'm not sure if it's a Hell dimension! Based on Lucifer's words I assume this is the place Cas took Kelly to. I can't imagine him taking her to a Hell dimension. I think it might just be a more neutral parallel dimension. 

Edited May 12, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Boopsahoy]

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

'm wondering about this other universe.

I see these weird pillars that look metallic and all the dead bodies. I think it's some other hell dimension.

Is it weird I find if sexy to watch Dean with a machine gun?