Spoilers With Speculation

[SueB]

I find myself relieved at the clip.  Looks like he simply didn't remember the previous night's hookup.  And you don't slap someone for just drunk flirting and forgetting IMO.  As for the girl, I'd say just post-college or late college age.  And if he can draw them, well that's up to him.  Dean's always been upfront about 'just passing through'.  

As for the waffles. Meh.  Dean splurges on happy food when he wants to.  It's possible it's an age regression, based on the previous spoiler and the specific comment about age from Sam.  I suspect the episode will start with Dean waking up a mess, having dinner, and then having to reconstruct what happened to him while simultaneously losing his memory.  

[Diane]

I fine with it too, it's not like he's 80 and she is 12.  Two consenting adults.  I hope it stays light hearted, I could you a good MOTW episode.

[catrox14]

It was from a TV Line article.  It could just be my interpretation/extrapolation of the bolded part

18 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Did he say that? I thought the episode would basically just be a comedy filler with some drama moments. Personally, I`m very wary of any "lesson" episodes, they never turn out well for Dean. Let alone that they say something positive about the character these days. So if they just stay away from that, I`d prefer it. 

Quote

In Season 12, episode 11, speculation suggests that the episode will feature a de-aged Dean. The CW series’ executive producer, Andrew Dabb, told TVLine that Ackles’ character won’t be de-aging physically but mentally. “[He’s] trapped in a ‘Memento’-type loop, where he’s kind of losing his memory a little bit. For him, as someone who struggles with all the baggage from years and years of doing a very, very difficult job, it almost becomes freeing, in a way. So you’re going to see a Dean that is a lot more fun and childlike. Jensen [Ackles] does a great job.

Then it becomes a much more tragic story as he starts to forget Sam — and himself.”

[Aeryn13]

Ah, okay, I didn`t take that to mean he comes out of the spell having learned something or a deeper understanding of something, more that it is just a respite from the usual darkness. It`s probably akin to the Buffy ep "Tabula Rasa" where everyone loses their memories. Buffy was depressed before, then almost giddy during and doubly depressed after the memories came rushing back again.

Now I don`t see something as dire happening here because right now Dean isn`t in a very dark phase. He might have some stuff on his plate and he is surely disappointed about Mary - as am I - but it`s not like say Season 7 or 9 where he was really down in the dumps.

Maybe at the most he will say something like his experiences made him who he is and he wouldn`t change that now afterwards. At least I hope they keep it simple like that. 

[catrox14]

36 minutes ago, Diane said:

I fine with it too, it's not like he's 80 and she is 12.  Two consenting adults.  I hope it stays light hearted, I could you a good MOTW episode.

LOL I never said it was like he's 80 and she's 12. It's not me being all "oh noess age  differences" I've dated plenty of men younger than me  and I've dated men older a lot older than me. It's more of my frustration that for Dean, he progresses and regresses and is put back into boxes he's grown out of over the years, for plot. That's my issue.

Edited February 8, 2017 by catrox14

[catrox14]

ETA: 

If Dean has already begun forgetting things when he meets this chick, then maybe HE thinks he's actually in his 20's which is why he's riding a mechanical bull and hooking up with someone in her 20's.

[ILoveReading]

One thing, I've really liked this season is how Jensen is playing Dean.  He seems to have this confidence that he hasn't really had since season 1.  He was hurt when Mary left but he didn't self destruct or start drinking and he's coping well.  Plus, he's standing up for himself and others.

I hope this episode doesn't change that.  I don't want Dean to go back to s7 or s9 mental state because of this experience.

Quote

If Dean has already begun forgetting things when he meets this chick, then maybe HE thinks he's actually in his 20's which is why he's riding a mechanical bull and hooking up with someone in her 20's.

That's possible, plus Dean seems to be already hexed here, so its possible he hooked up with this girl afterward.  I can't see her coming up to him and asking if he remembered if she was involved in the spell.  I wonder exactly why Dean gets hexed.  Maybe she has a jealous boyfriend.

[bearcatfan]

27 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

ETA: 

If Dean has already begun forgetting things when he meets this chick, then maybe HE thinks he's actually in his 20's which is why he's riding a mechanical bull and hooking up with someone in her 20's.

That had occurred to me as well.

[catrox14]

Ruth Connell discusses this episode

http://tvline.com/2017/02/08/supernatural-spoilers-season-12-episode-11-dean-memory-loss/

[ILoveReading]

That interview makes this episode sound far more about Rowena rather than Dean.

[MysteryGuest]

It's really difficult to even form an opinion on that scene with no context.  I couldn't care less if he hooked up with the woman, and my guess is they're playing that scene strictly for laughs, anyway.  I'm not sure his "hook-up" will have any more meaning than that.  I was hoping this would be a more serious episode, but it looks like it's going to be full of the almost slapstick humor I'm not always so keen on, with a few serious moments thrown in.  I hope I'm wrong, but the previews aren't really doing it for me, so far.

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I have been quite dismayed how in recent years the show tried to imply that Dean is somehow old`, has a "dad bod" and all that stuff that implies he can`t attract women anymore. The other CW shows that have "older" but still insanely attractive man never pull that crap. It is acknowledged that they are hot and get women. So if a woman notices Dean again, hallelujah.

Quote

I couldn't agree with this more.  I'm sorry, the man is gorgeous.  Attracting women would not be an issue for Dean, at all.

[bearcatfan]

14 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

That interview makes this episode sound far more about Rowena rather than Dean.

I wouldn't look too much into that as the interview was with Ruth. I'm sure she has more information (and interest) about her character than Dean.

[Geordiegirl1967]

29 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Ruth Connell discusses this episode

http://tvline.com/2017/02/08/supernatural-spoilers-season-12-episode-11-dean-memory-loss/

She does mention a '1 perfect tear' moment which sounds promising.

I'm not sure what to expect with this ep. It has the potential to be an emotional ep for Dean and Sam. But I'm concerned they're going to play it entirely for laughs. That's how the sneak peek makes it look anyway.

S12 has really under served the main characters of the show IMO. Dean and Sam have been wallpaper in many eps and haven't had much to sink their teeth into acting wise. It has also been pretty much a bro bond free zone in terms of scenes / moments that highlight their bond. The rescue of Sam was a huge disappointment. Sam thought Dean was dead. Dean has been frantically searching for Sam for days. Yet their reunion was a damp squib. Ditto when they were reunited after 6 weeks in solitary confinement. 

Sadly I think Dabb is more interested in Luci, Rowena, Crowley, Cas, BMOL and particularly Mary than in putting some writing effort into the central relationship in the show.

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Sadly I think Dabb is more interested in Luci, Rowena, Crowley, Cas, BMOL and particularly Mary than in putting some writing effort into the central relationship in the show.

I'm not entirely sure that Dabb is not interested in writing for the brothers but is more trying to accommodate J2 wanting more time off than before. Like I mentioned in the Lily Sunder thread, if the writers were a little better I think their absences would be less noticeable.

[Geordiegirl1967]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm not entirely sure that Dabb is not interested in writing for the brothers but is more trying to accommodate J2 wanting more time off than before. Like I mentioned in the Lily Sunder thread, if the writers were a little better I think their absences would be less noticeable.

I replied to you there on this topic. In short I agree. 

[MysteryGuest]

Well, I think we're all in agreement that we need better writing.  We knew this season might be a bit rocky with the influx of new writers, but I honestly wasn't expecting it to be this bad.  Admittedly, it might not seem as bad to me without the heavy focus on Lucifer.  I find that I simply don't watch when he's on the screen, and that absolutely takes me right out of those episodes.  And since he's been a good chunk of the storyline so far this season, I'm sure that's a big part of why this season feels so strange to me.  

As you stated, Geordiegirl1967, there are creative ways for the writers to work around Jensen and Jared's absences.  I wish that the secondary characters were strong enough to carry episodes on their own, but I'm not sure about that.  Maybe they can send Mary on a hunt with Jody and the girls.  That might be interesting.  

Edited February 9, 2017 by MysteryGuest

[Geordiegirl1967]

1 minute ago, MysteryGuest said:

 I wish that the secondary characters were strong enough to carry episodes on their own, but I'm not sure about that.  Maybe they can send Mary on a hunt with Jody and the girls.  That might be interesting.

I'm not sure about that. I think Mary and Jody could carry an ep but I wouldn't be particularly interested in watching it. I watch for Sam and Dean. Anything that isn't featuring them or about them is already losing my interest. Whole eps, no matter how good, focused on other characters isn't the solution I am looking for.

3 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

We knew this season might be a bit rocky with the influx of new writers, but I honestly wasn't expecting it to be this bad.

I wouldn't go as far as saying it is bad, but certainly it has been lacklustre and frustrating IMO. I was worried about the exodus of writers and other key crew members. Sadly my worries were justified. We desperately need to strengthen the writing team. What is Ben Edlund doing these days? Or Robbie Thompson?

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

As you stated, Geordiegirl1967, there are creative ways for the writers to work around Jensen and Jared's absences.  I wish that the secondary characters were strong enough to carry episodes on their own, but I'm not sure about that.  Maybe they can send Mary on a hunt with Jody and the girls.  That might be interesting.  

They can write Cas/Crowley/Rowena/Mary et al with a story tied to the boys  They had the chance to start building that with the boys being sent to prison. They could have extended that for 2 episodes and extended the boys time in prison to like 6 months and show them really starting to lose their marbles in solitary. Show maybe Cas/Mary really trying to hunt beyond Cas' one try. Give Crowley and Rowena reasons to help them find the boys. Like Hell is fucked if they don't find them.  So many ways to set it up that the boys are the story without being on screen for 35 minutes of the 42.

3 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

What is Ben Edlund doing these days? Or Robbie Thompson?

Ben is working on Gotham and Robbie Thompson is doing some Marvel comics last I knew.

[MysteryGuest]

As much as I love Misha and Cas, they need to give him back his balls if they're going to want him to carry an episode.  I thought the Cas/Mary scenes were the weakest in that storyline.  I hated them having Cas be so pathetic at hunting that he'd just give up and allow the monsters to go on killing people.  Even when Mary offered to go back with him, he opted out.  Something has to give with him, and soon.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, MysteryGuest said:

As much as I love Misha and Cas, they need to give him back his balls if they're going to want him to carry an episode.  I thought the Cas/Mary scenes were the weakest in that storyline.  I hated them having Cas be so pathetic at hunting that he'd just give up and allow the monsters to go on killing people.  Even when Mary offered to go back with him, he opted out.  Something has to give with him, and soon.

Personally I don't mind  Cas centric episodes. The Rapture, The Man Who Would Be King, the human Cas eps in s9 were all great performances by Misha IMO.  Misha is a good enough actor but they need to weave the story to be attached to the Winchesters in some way to keep those who watch for the brothers to remain invested. 

[Geordiegirl1967]

15 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

They can write Cas/Crowley/Rowena/Mary et al with a story tied to the boys  They had the chance to start building that with the boys being sent to prison. They could have extended that for 2 episodes and extended the boys time in prison to like 6 months and show them really starting to lose their marbles in solitary. Show maybe Cas/Mary really trying to hunt beyond Cas' one try. Give Crowley and Rowena reasons to help them find the boys. Like Hell is fucked if they don't find them.  So many ways to set it up that the boys are the story without being on screen for 35 minutes of the 42

I wouldn't have wanted that. 6 months in jail and S&D off the board for that long? No.

I know everyone has their own preferences / reasons for watching, but for me and (I believe) many like me, Sam and Dean and their bond are the main attractions. So at least 1 of them has to be onscreen for me to be interested, and what they are doing has to be about or in concert with the other. So I am not interested in Cas / Mary / Jody / Rowena / Crowley et al on their own or in combination with each other. That's just my preference.

Shame that we have lost so many good writers. We need quality and knowledge of / passion for the show. There must be some previous writers who would come back? However so long as the show performs well in the ratings, which it is, the network doesn't think anything needs fixing.

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

I wouldn't have wanted that. 6 months in jail and S&D off the board for that long? No.

? It would be 6 month jump in the show over 2 episodes.  They jumped 6 weeks here and 4 months for Dean in Hell and an entire year for Dean when Sam was in the Cage. Why not 6 months in solitary to make me believe it was worse than Dean's 40 years in Hell and Sam's year in the Cage? 

Intersperse Dean and Sam's mind set...flashbacks to memories. Hell, make it a clip show of memories or even cheesy voice overs that keep them in the episode.  Every hunt that Cas or Mary go on, brings up memories of hunts for Dean and Sam and how they are losing their lives. Showing how important the boys are to the universe, like Chuck implied.

To me that would be a good way to keep  the boys in the story and give J2 what they want to even keep the show going.  But that's just me. YMMV

Edited February 9, 2017 by catrox14

[MysteryGuest]

I'm sure they got some of these new writers for a bargain compared to some of the ones we lost, so I don't see the network doing much of anything to fix that, sadly.  As you said, the ratings are holding pretty well, so why bother?  Even if the ratings slipped, I don't see them doing much.  I think they'd just let the show die .  They'll keep it going as long as the built-in fan base is there, and as long as Jensen and Jared are onboard, but I just don't see them putting much money into it at this point.

I guess I'm not crazy about Cas centric episodes.  I like him best when he's interacting with Dean and Sam.  I think the only real secondary character stand-alone episode I really enjoyed was Weekend at Bobby's.  I enjoyed seeing how he worked with the network of hunters behind the scenes, and I loved him and Rufus together.  Throw in a little Crowley, and it made a pretty good episode, I think.

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

It would be 6 month jump in the show over 2 episodes.  They jumped 6 weeks here and 4 months for Dean in Hell and an entire year for Dean when Sam was in the Cage. Why not 6 months in solitary to make me believe it was worse than Dean's 40 years in Hell and Sam's year in the Cage? 

Intersperse Dean and Sam's mind set...flashbacks to memories. Hell, make it a clip show of memories or even cheesy voice overs that keep them in the episode.  Every hunt that Cas or Mary go on, brings up memories of hunts for Dean and Sam and how they are losing their lives. Showing how important the boys are to the universe, like Chuck implied.

To me that would be a good way to keep  the boys in the story and give J2 what they want to even keep the show going.  But that's just me. YMMV

I could see that working.  But again, it takes good writers to come up with these ideas...or dedicated fans!

[ILoveReading]

I think Steve Yockey (Asa Fox, Lily Sunder) is one of the stronger writers we've had in awhile.  His Dean characterization in Asa Fox made it my favorite episode since The Prisoner.   I thought he had a really good handle on the dynamics of the Dean/Cas/Sam relationship last episode. 

I can overlook the story being a little weak in both cases as along as Dean is well written.

I think it would also help compensate for JA and JP's time off if they could get out of this mindset the the brothers cant be separated for more than an episode.  The boys in solitary is a good example.  I'd have like to see more the psychological effect this was having on Dean, as he's such a people person.   There are ways to show case Sam and Dean's connection without the brothers being attached at the hip. (Unusual Suspects is a good example of this). 

There are ways to compensate if one or the other isn't physically there.   A good example of this is In The Beginning.  I've always felt that depsite Jared not being in much of the episode, it was very Sam centric as it answered the big question of Why Sam.  His presence was strong through the ep.

Or have a case where Sam is paired with Jody and Dean with Donna for example.  That way if they are filming only 20 minutes (for example), most of the ep shows one or there other.  Pairing them with other characters can also open up new dynamics.  Dean's and Gordon in Blood Lust is a good example.  We got Dean opening up about John's death.  That's stuff he would never say in front of Sam. 

There is also some interesting side characters.  I liked Bucky from Asa Fox.  He wasn't evil, just a bit of a coward.  Imagine a case where Sam or Dean goes missing and for...reasons is the only hunter available to help.   

I'm not saying this needs to be every episode, but a few isn't going to hurt the show.   You give a chance to develop another character and mix up the dynamics a little.  Plus it was interesting to see how others view Sam and Dean. 

We should have seen Mary's journey of self-discovery.  Do a wee chester flashback ep while Mary is reading the diary and show us some major events, like the Stanford fight, Sam running away in Flagstaff.   As it is now, I don't believe Mary sees these two as her sons other than in name.  There is no emotional connection.

Have a case set at Stanford and have Sam got back to the campus.  Introduce a character from the four years when Sam was in Stanford and let us know what Dean was up too.  I for one would really like to know how Dean is so familiar with how 72 hour holds are like. 

There is a lot of new material to mine rather than Sam, Dean who up to hunt a vampire or werewolf and we get 20 minutes random guest stars who have no connection other then some forced parallel. 

The show has gotten to comfortable in its routine.  .  There is lots of ideas, the show just needs to get out of the rut the writers have fallen into

[Geordiegirl1967]

36 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

It would be 6 month jump in the show over 2 episodes.  They jumped 6 weeks here and 4 months for Dean in Hell and an entire year for Dean when Sam was in the Cage. Why not 6 months in solitary to make me believe it was worse than Dean's 40 years in Hell and Sam's year in the Cage?

One of my absolute pet hates are time jumps. I LOATHE them. To me they are a cheap writers trick that cheat the viewer. I have hated every one they have done in SPN and in other shows. That's just me though. I know they don't bother everyone. 

I do agree though that Dean claiming 6 weeks (or even if it had been 6 months) in solitary confinement with a bed and 3 square meals a day was worse that hell stretched credibility to breaking point. He'd risk dying or losing his brother after just 6 weeks? I didn't buy that at all. The Billy solution was a nuclear option that he wouldn't have resorted to so quickly IMO.

34 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I guess I'm not crazy about Cas centric episodes.  I like him best when he's interacting with Dean and Sam

I agree.

[catrox14]

It's kind of weird when I watch S4 and S5 Sam & Dean were separated but I was hella invested in their mutual stories because the were connected even if at odds. Same with s2, s9 and s10. I guess to me I prefer the longer mytharcs spritzed in the MoTW stuff. I don't mind when the boys are paired with other characters in various stories.

"Inside Man" is one of my fav eps from s10 and of the whole series and the boys were separated the whole time other than the beginning and the ending yet their stories were completely intertwined.

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

One of my absolute pet hates are time jumps. I LOATHE them. To me they are a cheap writers trick that cheat the viewer. I have hated every one they have done in SPN and in other shows. That's just me though. I know they don't bother everyon

I gotcha. I'm the opposite if they do it well and it takes the story in a new direction.

[rue721]

19 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Or have a case where Sam is paired with Jody and Dean with Donna for example.  That way if they are filming only 20 minutes (for example), most of the ep shows one or there other.  Pairing them with other characters can also open up new dynamics.  Dean's and Gordon in Blood Lust is a good example.  We got Dean opening up about John's death.  That's stuff he would never say in front of Sam. 

There is also some interesting side characters.  I liked Bucky from Asa Fox.  He wasn't evil, just a bit of a coward.  Imagine a case where Sam or Dean goes missing and for...reasons is the only hunter available to help.   

I'm not saying this needs to be every episode, but a few isn't going to hurt the show.   You give a chance to develop another character and mix up the dynamics a little.  Plus it was interesting to see how others view Sam and Dean. 

We should have seen Mary's journey of self-discovery.  Do a wee chester flashback ep while Mary is reading the diary and show us some major events, like the Stanford fight, Sam running away in Flagstaff.   As it is now, I don't believe Mary sees these two as her sons other than in name.  There is no emotional connection.

Have a case set at Stanford and have Sam got back to the campus.  Introduce a character from the four years when Sam was in Stanford and let us know what Dean was up too.  I for one would really like to know how Dean is so familiar with how 72 hour holds are like. 

There is a lot of new material to mine rather than Sam, Dean who up to hunt a vampire or werewolf and we get 20 minutes random guest stars who have no connection other then some forced parallel. 

The show has gotten to comfortable in its routine.  .  There is lots of ideas, the show just needs to get out of the rut the writers have fallen into

I love all these ideas!!

[SueB]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

Well, I think we're all in agreement that we need better writing.  We knew this season might be a bit rocky with the influx of new writers, but I honestly wasn't expecting it to be this bad.  Admittedly, it might not seem as bad to me without the heavy focus on Lucifer.  I find that I simply don't watch when he's on the screen, and that absolutely takes me right out of those episodes.  And since he's been a good chunk of the storyline so far this season, I'm sure that's a big part of why this season feels so strange to me.  

As you stated, Geordiegirl1967, there are creative ways for the writers to work around Jensen and Jared's absences.  I wish that the secondary characters were strong enough to carry episodes on their own, but I'm not sure about that.  Maybe they can send Mary on a hunt with Jody and the girls.  That might be interesting.  

Not me.  

Have there been some clunky bits?  You bet.  But in context, I think it's been a great character season.  I love the boys being 100% in synch.  I love sassy Cas.  I love Mary being back -- although I'm really starting to worry that she is not going to bond with her boys again.  I'll admit the Hitler story was a little OTT.  I'll give that one to Dabb -- I suspect this was a fantasy idea he's had for a while (see the mythology special video on S8 DVD).  

But for me, I see a CLEAR plot line running through the season. It's that the good guys are able to navigate the "grey" and do the right thing while the bad guys can't even understand the conversation.  Yes, they've covered this ground before but it's much more sophisticated.  In that past they'd not blink twice and killing the spawn of Satan.  Now, they're struggling with what they are going to do and they've given us a sufficient build-up to appreciate that struggle.  

[MysteryGuest]

18 minutes ago, SueB said:

Not me.  

Sorry, I shouldn't have spoken for everyone.  I personally find the writing to be lacking this season.  I get the story arc and what they're trying to achieve, but I find the plots to be very loosely held together with too many implausible actions just to get the writers from point A to point B.  I think there are better ways they could get there without sacrificing the credibility of the characters or stomping all over the canon.  Again, just my opinion.

[catrox14]

26 minutes ago, SueB said:

Not me.  

Have there been some clunky bits?  You bet.  But in context, I think it's been a great character season.  I love the boys being 100% in synch.  I love sassy Cas.  I love Mary being back -- although I'm really starting to worry that she is not going to bond with her boys again.  I'll admit the Hitler story was a little OTT.  I'll give that one to Dabb -- I suspect this was a fantasy idea he's had for a while (see the mythology special video on S8 DVD).  

But for me, I see a CLEAR plot line running through the season. It's that the good guys are able to navigate the "grey" and do the right thing while the bad guys can't even understand the conversation.  Yes, they've covered this ground before but it's much more sophisticated.  In that past they'd not blink twice and killing the spawn of Satan.  Now, they're struggling with what they are going to do and they've given us a sufficient build-up to appreciate that struggle.  

I feel like this season has no direction thus far. I see no mytharc that is intriguing to me. I have no interest in the BMoL. Mary story with the boys is going nowhere that is satisfying for me. Dean has alternately been badass and getting his ass kicked in ways I find absurd. Sam being tortured and mind raped was not cool and that has been totally dropped.  And the idiocy of the Lucifer nephilim is still out there and I dread it.  And this isn't bitterness either. It's disappointing. I'm just  kind of  riding it out because I'm invested in what happens to Dean, Sam and Cas.

[AwesomO4000]

57 minutes ago, SueB said:

But in context, I think it's been a great character season.  I love the boys being 100% in synch.

I agree. I think about season 8 and all of the plot - and there was a bunch of it - but because of the characterizations, I pretty much hated all of it. Lots of things were happening, but the characterization was often sacrificed in order for it all to happen. First we had lots of Dean story and Sam's characterization was thrown under the bus, then we swung the other way to compensate. Sam had story and Dean's characterization (for some anyway) was thrown under the bus. The manufactured angst was off the charts and I was so happy when it was all over. Season 9 suffered from some of the same things - except there they didn't even bother to give Sam much of an arc. First he was Gadreel and then he was just pissed off (which isn't an arc in my opinion, never mind it wasn't how Sam generally acted pre-season 8 anyway). So despite the abundance of story, again, I wasn't entirely invested (though it was a little better than 8, for me anyway.)

This season not all of the stories have hit for me, but I am enjoying the hell out of the character interactions and characterizations. I am enjoying a season where it's not a situation where either Dean or Sam has somehow messed up and has to somehow make it up to the other brother... I think it's been since season 7 in fact that we've had that. As much I enjoyed season 11, we still had the cloud of "Sam messed up" hanging a little over the season. I'm guessing it was Dabb's influence later on that made that not as bad as it had been in the previous seasons. And I'm enjoying a continuation of that very much.

I'm hoping that eventually these new writers will get a handle on the show and its mytharcs and canon - not everyone knows the show as well as we do ; ) - and those sorts of details can improve. Characterization is something a showrunner either wants or brushes aside in favor of plot. I am enjoying that presently characterization isn't being sacrificed on that altar.

Edited February 9, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[auntvi]

8 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I am enjoying a season where it's not a situation where either Dean or Sam has somehow messed up and has to somehow make it up to the other brother...

Yes! Now if they'd cut some of the Sam torture porn, I'd be much happier.

 

1 hour ago, SueB said:

But for me, I see a CLEAR plot line running through the season. It's that the good guys are able to navigate the "grey" and do the right thing while the bad guys can't even understand the conversation.

Thank  you. I have to admit that I'm not a sophisticated viewer, don't know much about lit crit, and it really helps that you shared this. It makes a lot of sense to me.

[DittyDotDot]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Ben is working on Gotham and Robbie Thompson is doing some Marvel comics last I knew.

Actually, Ben hasn't worked on Gotham since their first season--almost two years ago--and only wrote two episodes that season. He did a new pilot for The Tick on Amazon last year--which I thought was pretty decent and showed a lot of promise--but I'm not sure if it got picked up. Keep forgetting to check in on that one. Last I heard, he was working on a show called Powers which is a Playstation Original. Haven't seen it, so can't tell you what it's about or anything.

I heard somewhere that Robbie Thompson was working on adapting his comic Silk for television, but can't remember the details exactly right now.

[catrox14]

Just now, DittyDotDot said:

Actually, Ben hasn't worked on Gotham since their first season--almost two years ago--and only wrote two episodes that season.

Actually, I haven't watched Gotham since s1 so I didn't know he left. I thought he was still EP. Thanks!

[rue721]

30 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

He did a new pilot for The Tick on Amazon last year--which I thought was pretty decent and showed a lot of promise--but I'm not sure if it got picked up.

Yup, it did. I've been watching Amazon Prime, and apparently the algorithm wants me to watch it.

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Yup, it did. I've been watching Amazon Prime, and apparently the algorithm wants me to watch it.

I went and looked it up after I posted that, it did get picked up, but hasn't premiered yet. It's supposed to premiere sometime in 2017, though. What they're probably wanting you to watch is the pilot episode. They put it up back in August with a couple other pilots and asked viewers to vote on which should be their next show. I loved the original show back in the '90s, so I felt I had to check it out. Apparently it did well enough they ordered a 10-episode season.

So, I would assume Edlund isn't working on Powers anymore?

[SueB]

37 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Yup, it did. I've been watching Amazon Prime, and apparently the algorithm wants me to watch it.

Do algorithms dream?  Sorry, just had to go there. #Asimov

[Demented Daisy]

7 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

So, I would assume Edlund isn't working on Powers anymore?

Cancelled.  He hasn't tweeted since October, so perhaps he's too busy working on The Tick?

[RulerofallIsurvey]

11 hours ago, SueB said:

But in context, I think it's been a great character season.  I love the boys being 100% in synch.

 

10 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

This season not all of the stories have hit for me, but I am enjoying the hell out of the character interactions and characterizations. I am enjoying a season where it's not a situation where either Dean or Sam has somehow messed up and has to somehow make it up to the other brother.

Amen and Hallelujah.  

I'm still tired of the angst and brother vs. brother of S8-S10.  Even some of the earlier seasons had that dynamic also.  I don't like it.  That's not what drew me into the show.  I like the guys working together.  And I really don't care about some great big mytharc, or if one seems to be missing this season.  I mean, you can't really top God.  I always liked the smaller stories anyway - the MotW eps; even the ones that didn't have actual monsters but human psychos running around killing people.  I think there's a lot of story out there to explore without having to go big or go home.  And I think, as @SueB alluded, the BMoL is going to play into this.

[goldy]

[DittyDotDot]

11 minutes ago, goldy said:

I think that requires a musical assist, Dabb! ;)

[Geordiegirl1967]

32 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I'm still tired of the angst and brother vs. brother of S8-S10.  Even some of the earlier seasons had that dynamic also.  I don't like it.  That's not what drew me into the show.  I like the guys working together.

This! I hated all the manufactured bro conflict of s8-10. I nearly gave up on the show after the ludicrous and out of character decision in s8 to have Sam not look for Dean. Shudder!

Although I am finding this season a bit lacklustre I would rather have this than early s8 or late s9 ANY day of the week. So I am trying to take the positives out of it.

[MysteryGuest]

I agree...the one real positive from the past few seasons is having the brothers working together, and not constantly lying to each other.  That has definitely been a welcome change over the earlier years.  

[catrox14]

Whilst Carver had his failures re Canon and I think he mishandled Sam not looking for Dean and Kevin , I really think there was no more angst under Carver era than Kripke or Gamble. . Every season under Kripke had a crapton of angst and division.

  Looking back, from the get go the   brothers were at odds in some way, shape or form from the pilot onward even if they were sitting by side by side. The basic premise was that  Sam did not want to hunt and resented being dragged back into hunting to look for John. Sam did not intend to keep hunting and only joined Dean after Jessica was murdered to get vengeance which sets up the angst between them over vengeance vs Dean's mission of saving people, hunting things.

Sam tried to kill Dean halfway through s1 due to the shrink messing with his head. Shapeshifter! Dean tried to kill Sam.  Dean was upset when he learned Sam wanted  to go back to Stanford once they killed YED. They butted heads over John. They came to understandings but they were never in lock step agreement. They were kind of dicks to each other a lot in s1.

In  s2 Dean was sidled with Johns'  secret of Sam Sammy or Kill Sammy and Sam was freaked out over  being one of Azalels children and Dean angst of dealing with Johns death, John trading his life for Deans and being freaked out over Sam being a special child. S3 was them being on the same side mostly but the angst was because was going to Hell and Sam trying to stop it.

S4 was probably the most divided the boys have ever been over a single season.  Sam and Dean were at odds from the get go and never really reconciled until the season finale. And they were not on the same page until the final moments of s4.  The boys beat the shit out of each other. Yes,  I know supernatural influence battles but  the point  being that Kripke s writing /storyline still put them  on opposite sides and angst was at Defcon 1 going g into s5.

But that's just my humble opinion.

[goldy]

[ILoveReading]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Whilst Carver had his failures re Canon and I think he mishandled Sam not looking for Dean and Kevin , I really think there was no more angst under Carver era than Kripke or Gamble. . Every season under Kripke had a crapton of angst and division.

  Looking back, from the get go the   brothers were at odds in some way, shape or form from the pilot onward even if they were sitting by side by side. The basic premise was that  Sam did not want to hunt and resented being dragged back into hunting to look for John. Sam did not intend to keep hunting and only joined Dean after Jessica was murdered to get vengeance which sets up the angst between them over vengeance vs Dean's mission of saving people, hunting things.

Sam tried to kill Dean halfway through s1 due to the shrink messing with his head. Shapeshifter! Dean tried to kill Sam.  Dean was upset when he learned Sam wanted  to go back to Stanford once they killed YED. They butted heads over John. They came to understandings but they were never in lock step agreement. They were kind of dicks to each other a lot in s1.

In  s2 Dean was sidled with Johns'  secret of Sam Sammy or Kill Sammy and Sam was freaked out over  being one of Azalels children and Dean angst of dealing with Johns death, John trading his life for Deans and being freaked out over Sam being a special child. S3 was them being on the same side mostly but the angst was because was going to Hell and Sam trying to stop it.

S4 was probably the most divided the boys have ever been over a single season.  Sam and Dean were at odds from the get go and never really reconciled until the season finale. And they were not on the same page until the final moments of s4.  The boys beat the shit out of each other. Yes,  I know supernatural influence battles but  the point  being that Kripke s writing /storyline still put them  on opposite sides and angst was at Defcon 1 going g into s5.

But that's just my humble opinion.

I agree Catrox.  I also think tthere was a fair amount of conflict last season it was just a little more subdued.  As someone said, Sam and Dean might have been on the same page but they were reading different book.   Just because your not actively fighting or at odds doesn't mean your in sync.  While it was more subdued we had the whole Sam thinking God was talking to him/ Dean disagreeing. 

Dean pointed out some very rational arguments as to why it wasn't God.  The strongest being the point about God never saying that God helps those who help themselves.  That was from Aesop.  Yet Sam didn't listen.  He was convinced he was God's chosen and nothing was going to deter him.  After Sully told Sam that it was something only he could do, it was the deciding factor for Sam.  Yet he never stopped to ask a question that should have been obvious.  Why would Lucifer help?  It appeared, even if it wasn't the writers intention that Sam valued Sully's words over Dean's. 

Dean was never on board with the plan but helped and made Sam promise to wait for him.   It didn't take Rowena long to goad Sam into going alone and breaking his promise to Dean.   Ending with Sam getting stuck and needed a rescue.  Something that might have been avoided if Sam had listened to Dean in the first place.  Sam did continue to work behind Dean's back.   He didn't tell Dean about his conversation with God about him carrying the mark.  So we have a lie by omission.   Something Sam continued on this season when he contacted the British Men of Letters. 

Even if the brothers are getting along better, there is still that element of angst. 

[Icarus]

Whilst Carver had his failures re Canon and I think he mishandled Sam not looking for Dean and Kevin , I really think there was no more angst under Carver era than Kripke or Gamble. . Every season under Kripke had a crapton of angst and division.

  Looking back, from the get go the   brothers were at odds in some way, shape or form from the pilot onward even if they were sitting by side by side. The basic premise was that  Sam did not want to hunt and resented being dragged back into hunting to look for John. Sam did not intend to keep hunting and only joined Dean after Jessica was murdered to get vengeance which sets up the angst between them over vengeance vs Dean's mission of saving people, hunting things.

Sam tried to kill Dean halfway through s1 due to the shrink messing with his head. Shapeshifter! Dean tried to kill Sam.  Dean was upset when he learned Sam wanted  to go back to Stanford once they killed YED. They butted heads over John. They came to understandings but they were never in lock step agreement. They were kind of dicks to each other a lot in s1.

In  s2 Dean was sidled with Johns'  secret of Sam Sammy or Kill Sammy and Sam was freaked out over  being one of Azalels children and Dean angst of dealing with Johns death, John trading his life for Deans and being freaked out over Sam being a special child. S3 was them being on the same side mostly but the angst was because was going to Hell and Sam trying to stop it.

S4 was probably the most divided the boys have ever been over a single season.  Sam and Dean were at odds from the get go and never really reconciled until the season finale. And they were not on the same page until the final moments of s4.  The boys beat the shit out of each other. Yes,  I know supernatural influence battles but  the point  being that Kripke s writing /storyline still put them  on opposite sides and angst was at Defcon 1 going g into s5.

 

I also agree with this but I want them now to be on the same page or not be hiding things, lying etc with each other. I think they have played that story line far too much and I think most of us would be happy if they didn't make it a main storyline again. A little bit of angsting okay but IMO the writers have used it as a lazy storyline. I much prefer the drama to come from the MOTW or the mytharc and I think that the writers have more they can do with these than setting up Sam and Dean against each other again.

[MysteryGuest]

10 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Even if the brothers are getting along better, there is still that element of angst. 

I think they're getting along much better than in earlier years, but they are still two separate people with different opinions and ideas, so I don't expect them to agree on everything 100% of the time.  That would be boring, IMO.  

The writers do have Sam make some unfortunate decisions sometimes just to further the plot along, and if I were a Sam fan, it would annoy the hell out of me.  Actually, I am a Sam fan, and it does annoy the hell out of me.  I may be a bigger Dean fan, but I absolutely have issues with how the writers tend to screw with Sam's character. 

[Diane]