Spoilers With Speculation

[AwesomO4000]

Agreed with everything you said above, @catrox14.

[goldy]

Supernatural - Episode 12.10 - Lily Sunder Has Some Regrets - Press Release

http://www.spoilertv.com/2017/01/supernatural-episode-1210-lily-sunder.html

“Lily Sunder Has Some Regrets” — (8:00-9:00 p.m. ET) (TV-14, LV) (HDTV)

ANGELS AMONG US – Lily Sunder (guest star Alicia Witt) steeps herself in black magic, honing her powers for over a century, waiting to exact revenge on a band of angels that murdered her family. Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles) must work quickly to stop Castiel (Misha Collins) from becoming her next victim. Thomas J. Wright directed the episode written by Steve Yockey (#1210). Original airdate 2/2/2017.

[Demented Daisy]

Well, that makes no damn sense.  I thought that angels hadn't been on earth for hundreds, possibly thousands, of years.

Lemme guess -- a band of rogue angels?  I am so frustrated with the writing this year.  I know they have a crop of new writers, but has no one heard of the concept of research?

[ahrtee]

30 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

Well, that makes no damn sense.  I thought that angels hadn't been on earth for hundreds, possibly thousands, of years.

 

That's been bothering me for years.  When Cas was first introduced in s.4, he said that the impending apocalypse was the reason angels were "walking among" humans for the first time (in millennia?), but Anna had said that her garrison  had been away from home and homesick, watching humans silently for centuries. (And Uriel was around in The Song Remains the Same.) Then, of course, there was Henry Winchester, being so casual about needing an angel feather for his spell, and the BMoL recognizing what Cas was on sight, which wouldn't have been possible unless they'd seen angels before/possibly worked with them.  So maybe it was Cas's garrison (which did include Uriel) that killed her family, and maybe the angels worked with the MoL.

So many maybes, so little logic.  

[catrox14]

34 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

Well, that makes no damn sense.  I thought that angels hadn't been on earth for hundreds, possibly thousands, of years.

Yup. Castiel said 4.02 ,  angels came back to Earth after 2000 years because of the threat of Lucifer being freed from the cage.  The only way this can work is if Lily is holding a thousands of years old grudge. It also makes Cas a liar or that angels didnt leave `and Cas' memory was wiped. It also lessens the importance of WHY angels HAD to return. i hope its a poorly written summary.

[catrox14]

I suppose it could be a Grigori band of angels  like Tamiel who were supposed to protect humans but then he fed off humans.  Cas thought it was impossible for them to have been still been alive. He said they were destroyed but he was wrong

I don't get how  would a 100 year old witch know it was Cas in Jimmy's vessel unless someone told her. Rowena didn't know Cas was an angel until she was told. The psychic pinged Cas was different but didn't ID him as an angel. So Lily has to have some sources that direct her to Cas because she wouldn't know him as Jimmy's vessel unless she'd been stalking him for a long ass time. Mr. Ketchup likely had the dossier on Cas so I don't think he just pinged he was an angel just because. Lady WhyAreYouStillAlive knew Cas was an angel because she use D the banishing Sigil. So I guess that just means they didn't bother to tell the AMoL that angels existed or they did and the boys in the bunker never got that word. I dunno

[MysteryGuest]

I think I'm almost to the point where I can excuse their crapping all over the lore as long as they can write a good story.  They take poetic license all the time, but it's especially grating for me when it's wasted on a bad script.  This one at least sounds like it could be interesting...fingers crossed!

[ahrtee]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't get how  would a 100 year old witch know it was Cas in Jimmy's vessel unless someone told her. Rowena didn't know Cas was an angel until she was told. The psychic pinged Cas was different but didn't ID him as an angel. So Lily has to have some sources that direct her to Cas because she wouldn't know him as Jimmy's vessel unless she'd been stalking him for a long ass time. Mr. Ketchup likely had the dossier on Cas so I don't think he just pinged he was an angel just because. Lady WhyAreYouStillAlive knew Cas was an angel because she use D the banishing Sigil. So I guess that just means they didn't bother to tell the AMoL that angels existed or they did and the boys in the bunker never got that word. I dunno

 

Well, Rowena wasn't looking for angels. It's not like they have a little halo on their vessels.  I would think that a powerful witch who was specifically looking for angels (or a specific angel) could find 'em.  (And apparently it's taken her a long, long time...)

I'm guessing it was Cas's garrison that did something, though (judging by past eps) it was probably something the angels thought was necessary (remember, Uriel was perfectly willing to destroy a whole townful of people to stop Samhain).  So I'd guess that Lily is specifically looking for members of that garrison, and Cas is probably the only one left.  (I could see him arguing with the other angels, and one of them calling him by name and being overheard, which was passed on...)  

The AMoL (per Henry W.) needed angel feathers for their spells, so they obviously knew about them (and how to get their feathers)...which...how?  We've never seen physical feathers, just the shadow and afterburn.  And Dean said they had some of Cas's feathers in the Impala--but Jimmy's vessel wouldn't have feathers...?  

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I think I'm almost to the point where I can excuse their crapping all over the lore as long as they can write a good story.  They take poetic license all the time, but it's especially grating for me when it's wasted on a bad script.  This one at least sounds like it could be interesting...fingers crossed!

For me, I'm already predisposed to not liking the episode because I dislike Alicia Witt. I'm  not down for another round of Cas gets captured and doped/duped by a redhead that wants to kill him. I don't want Cas' back story to include him exacting cruelty on a family. We already know what inadvertently happened to Jimmy as part of Cas trying to communicate with him and tests of faith. There is a difference between being a Badass Cas and just being bad/evil. He's already been reprogrammed twice and we know angels are dicks and Cas  was a dick and had since earned redemption. Ymmv

[DittyDotDot]

2 hours ago, ahrtee said:

That's been bothering me for years.  When Cas was first introduced in s.4, he said that the impending apocalypse was the reason angels were "walking among" humans for the first time (in millennia?), but Anna had said that her garrison  had been away from home and homesick, watching humans silently for centuries. (And Uriel was around in The Song Remains the Same.) Then, of course, there was Henry Winchester, being so casual about needing an angel feather for his spell, and the BMoL recognizing what Cas was on sight, which wouldn't have been possible unless they'd seen angels before/possibly worked with them.  So maybe it was Cas's garrison (which did include Uriel) that killed her family, and maybe the angels worked with the MoL.

So many maybes, so little logic.  

Cass did say angels hadn't walked the earth for thousands of years, but maybe he meant they didn't take hosts and interact with humans. When Uriel showed up in the past to help Anna, he said they were under strict orders not to take a vessel. Perhaps angels have been on earth--which does line up with Castiel saying he'd been watching humanity for thousands of years and it was boring--just not in human bodies? So not literally walking the earth, but hanging out in the shadows? I dunno.

But, by that logic, it could be the garrison--which I'm assuming is the "band" of angels she's been hunting for--didn't actually murder her family, but just stood by and did nothing when her family was murdered? Or, perhaps there was a band of fallen angels who the garrison was sent to capture and this Lily Saunders just got the murderers wrong? Or maybe they did something that propelled events that led up to her family's murder? There's actually a lot of possibilities here, I think.

Oh, and maybe this Lily Saunders is one of the special people who can hear angels in their natural form Cass talked about back in Lazarus Rising?

Edited January 14, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[DittyDotDot]

59 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

The AMoL (per Henry W.) needed angel feathers for their spells, so they obviously knew about them (and how to get their feathers)...which...how?  We've never seen physical feathers, just the shadow and afterburn.  And Dean said they had some of Cas's feathers in the Impala--but Jimmy's vessel wouldn't have feathers...?  

I still maintain this to be one the stupidest thing the show has ever tried to convince me of. Why do they feel the need to be so literal as of late?

[ahrtee]

7 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

But, by that logic, it could be the garrison--which I'm assuming is the "band" of angels she's been hunting for--didn't actually murder her family, but just stood by and did nothing when her family was murdered? Or, perhaps there was a band of fallen angels who the garrison was sent to capture and this Lily Saunders just got the murderers wrong? Or maybe they did something that propelled events that led up to her family's murder? There's actually a lot of possibilities here, I think.

I think those are all workable possibilities.  The main problem with that would mean that the angels *did* take vessels, or else Lily wouldn't have known who (or what) had killed her family--directly or not.  I don't think any human would jump to the conclusion that angels had murdered people without proof (though, yeah, a "rogue" band of angels probably wouldn't listen to the prohibition against taking vessels...)  Hey--maybe the MoL came into contact with the fallen angels/in vessels (hence the knowledge of angels and their feathers)?  That might also make the BMoL complicit in Lily's family's murder...so maybe she'll join the boys working against the BMoL (or at least show them that the BMoL aren't the good guys...?  Just wild spec, but I still believe the BMoL are this year's Big Bad.

10 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

When Uriel showed up in the past to help Anna, he said they were under strict orders not to take a vessel.

Of course, if angels can talk to each other directly (either via angel radio or in their natural form) there was no reason for Uriel to take a vessel just to talk to Anna.... *sigh* That's what comes from expecting logic.  Or continuity.

[ahrtee]

27 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I still maintain this to be one the stupidest thing the show has ever tried to convince me of. Why do they feel the need to be so literal as of late?

Writers who have no sense of subtlety and assume the viewers won't understand anything not explicitly shown or stated.

[DittyDotDot]

33 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I think those are all workable possibilities.  The main problem with that would mean that the angels *did* take vessels, or else Lily wouldn't have known who (or what) had killed her family--directly or not.

Unless she is one of those special people I mentioned above who can see and hear angels in their natural state (or un-vessel-ed). Like Jimmy could apparently both see and hear Castiel when Castiel first appeared to him and tried to convince him to be his vessel. And, Castiel said he assumed Dean would be one of those people too. Perhaps those special people are generally viable angel vessels? 

I'm not sure it totally lines up, or if I have enough information yet, but it I think it could work. However, given the show's track record as of late, I won't be surprised if it doesn't make any sense at all. ;)

36 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

 Just wild spec, but I still believe the BMoL are this year's Big Bad.

I do too, but I've been wrong before on these things.

37 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Of course, if angels can talk to each other directly (either via angel radio or in their natural form) there was no reason for Uriel to take a vessel just to talk to Anna.... *sigh* That's what comes from expecting logic.  Or continuity.

She needed him to take a vessel to help her kill the Winchesters--to actually interact with them--not just to talk with her. I actually think they took great pains to make that one line up. I'm just not sure they take the same pains lately, though. 

[7kstar]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

For me, I'm already predisposed to not liking the episode because I dislike Alicia Witt.

I liked Alicia Witt in several of her earlier stuff, so as far as that goes, I'll wait to see.  Expecting them to use logic and fit the lore of the show...NOT. 

I think they write for binge watchers.  I have a friend that only watches after the season is over.  She is very satisfied and doesn't think about anything at all.  Just enjoys it and says it's very satisfying.  I know if I don't expect much I find more spots enjoyable but perhaps this is supposed to give Cas something.  I would like to see Cass as strong and more independent but lately that seems to be out of the question.  I can hope but don't expect it. 

[Demented Daisy]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

But, by that logic, it could be the garrison--which I'm assuming is the "band" of angels she's been hunting for--didn't actually murder her family, but just stood by and did nothing when her family was murdered? Or, perhaps there was a band of fallen angels who the garrison was sent to capture and this Lily Saunders just got the murderers wrong? Or maybe they did something that propelled events that led up to her family's murder? There's actually a lot of possibilities here, I think.

Or a group of monsters/demons/whatnot that said they were angels?  I mean, is the average human going to be able to tell the difference between a demon vessel, an angel vessel, a shifter, a skinwalker, a ghoul... ?

[DittyDotDot]

3 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

Or a group of monsters/demons/whatnot that said they were angels?  I mean, is the average human going to be able to tell the difference between a demon vessel, an angel vessel, a shifter, a skinwalker, a ghoul... ?

That's an excellent possibility too! 

[SueB]

Since 4.02 we've learned:
- Michael and a few of the top dog Angels were running their OWN game.  Which means a ton of shit could have been happening that Cas didn't know about
- Naomi's squad was something Cas didn't know about.  Reps from that group could have been running around violating what Cas thought was "the rules" all the time.
- Members of the garrison could have been called upon by higher-ups to do some dirty work and keep Cas out of the loop.  We had Bartholomew say that he went behind Cas' back during the Civil War because Cas didn't have the stomach to do what needed to be done.

All this combines, IMO, to say that some hit squad after a witch group could have been sent from the garrison behind Cas' back.  And Lily has been hunting down garrison members for a 100 years.

But... the angel feather in a spell -- well, that's just difficult to explain.  Sure, REQUIRING an Angel feather makes sense since Angels seem to be the only beings with enough "juice" to pull off time travel (per Azazel).  But how do they get them?  Lucifer had one of his in a crypt.  Seems like the Angels just don't molt from time to time.  NOW there should be a ton of feathers, what with the fallen angels and all.  BUT in the 1950's IDK.  That's a tough sell.  The only way it makes sense is if non-corporeal Angel feathers DO fall off from time to time and somehow those who are "in the know", can find them.  Pretty thin ice IMO.  BUT, if Anna remembers watching humans in non-corporeal form, maybe her wings are "present" and if one falls off, they become corporeal.  

So, IMO, Lily having been previously attacked by Angels doesn't bother me because the higher ups were pretty shifty for quite some time.  Angel feathers laying around pre-Fall seems much more far-fetched. 

[Demented Daisy]

2 hours ago, SueB said:

Since 4.02 we've learned:
- Michael and a few of the top dog Angels were running their OWN game.  Which means a ton of shit could have been happening that Cas didn't know about

The only way this works for me is if Michael sent an angel hit squad after her family because they were interfering with the Winchester/Campbell family lines.  No way he endangers "Dad's plan" for Sam and Dean decades before they are born by going after some random family.

 

Quote

All this combines, IMO, to say that some hit squad after a witch group could have been sent from the garrison behind Cas' back.

  But if they were sent behind Castiel's back, why does she think he's one of them?

 

Quote

And Lily has been hunting down garrison members for a 100 years.

No, she's been honing her skills for 100 years.  IMO, she only recently started on her revenge scheme.

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

 IMO, she only recently started on her revenge scheme.

that's impression I got as well

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

 IMO, she only recently started on her revenge scheme.

that's impression I got as well

[DittyDotDot]

35 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

The only way this works for me is if Michael sent an angel hit squad after her family because they were interfering with the Winchester/Campbell family lines.  No way he endangers "Dad's plan" for Sam and Dean decades before they are born by going after some random family.

I'm wondering if the garrison was sent to clean up a bunch of fallen angels and this girl's family either got caught in the crossfire or they were the fallen angels. Maybe they found some witness protection by possessing the girl's family after she was born? Perhaps she didn't know they were angels and figured the garrison murdered them? 

This actually might make a lot of sense of why they're doing this storyline now. I've always wondered what happened to angels who followed Lucifer after he was locked up? I mean, there had to be a few angels who were loyal to him and agreed with his view of humanity, right? Maybe these were some of those angels and they fell to escape Heaven after Lucifer was defeated and locked in Hell?

35 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

No, she's been honing her skills for 100 years.  IMO, she only recently started on her revenge scheme.

Yeah, I'm thinking she may not have known what it was that killed her family until there were angels among us. Either back when they saved Dean from Hell or after the angels fell. I'm thinking she became a witch as a means to protect herself after her family was slaughtered. 

I want to know if she knows Rowena?

Edited January 15, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Demented Daisy]

10 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

This actually might make a lot of sense of why they're doing this storyline now. I've always wondered what happened to angels who followed Lucifer after he was locked up? I mean, there had to be a few angels who were loyal to him and agreed with his view of humanity, right? Maybe these were some of those angels and they fell to escape Heaven after Lucifer was defeated and locked in Hell?

This is one place that Kripke diverged from his Dogma influence.  In Dogma, all the angels who rebelled with Lucifer were sent down with him, making them the first demons.

You know, I always wondered how Lucifer "made" Lilith into a demon if he was locked in the cage.  I mean, if he essentially had all of his powers (other than having a meat suit), then what's the point of locking him in the cage?  Especially if he can just create minions to do his bidding.  Kind of makes his job easier, in a way.  Management supervises while the lackeys do all the work.

[DittyDotDot]

2 hours ago, Demented Daisy said:

You know, I always wondered how Lucifer "made" Lilith into a demon if he was locked in the cage.  I mean, if he essentially had all of his powers (other than having a meat suit), then what's the point of locking him in the cage?  Especially if he can just create minions to do his bidding.  Kind of makes his job easier, in a way.  Management supervises while the lackeys do all the work.

I assumed he "made" Lilith before he was locked in Hell. In fact, I've always thought making that first demon is what made God finally see Lucifer had went too far and was the tipping point that got him locked in Hell--in the show's universe, that is. I just figured Lilith took over Lucifer's work after he got locked away. 

[catrox14]

It seems to me Lucifer wasn't locked in the Cage initially. I think Michael cast him into Hell per God's command but he left him free range in Hell withthe idea that Lucifer would eventually see the error of his ways and come around to God's side. Instead he started making Demons out of humans and he could go topside and make deals  given the deal he made with Cain to take the Mark. Unless he

I thought the Cage was made later because of Lucifer making demons. The cage kept him from influencing humans even via thought given him saying that once the Cage cracked after the Darkness was released that he could send a message to Sam when he couldn't before.

[AwesomO4000]

On 1/14/2017 at 0:03 PM, ahrtee said:

We've never seen physical feathers, just the shadow and afterburn.  And Dean said they had some of Cas's feathers in the Impala--but Jimmy's vessel wouldn't have feathers...?  

But Castiel used to go flitting off all the time - taking vessel Jimmy with him - so the wings gotta come out somehow so he can fly away, so then maybe...

20 hours ago, SueB said:

 BUT, if Anna remembers watching humans in non-corporeal form, maybe her wings are "present" and if one falls off, they become corporeal.  

And most people just think they are some sort of bird feathers? (If they aren't invisible still afterwards - I don't remember if they were or not.) Or if they are invisible, maybe the feathers can only be seen via spell by someone who knows what they are looking for or by those "special people."

And for me, if angels do have actual wings, that feathers would be around even back in the 50's isn't that far of a reach, because we know of at least one group of angels that are flitting around on earth all the time doing God's or the higher ups' bidding in getting certain bloodlines together: the cupids. The more far-fetched part for me is that cupids would easily lose their feathers and that they would be visible and/or findable. Though as we've also seen in this verse, much of the lore turns out to be correct - as per Dean - or not - as per Castiel - so the idea of cupids being little, fat, mostly naked angels flitting around with wings might've somehow had some basis in fact in that someone somewhere might've seen them and hence the "description". (This is based on SPN-verse lore, of course, since I don't think the depiction we have of angels means that someone here actually saw one ; ) ).

17 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I'm wondering if the garrison was sent to clean up a bunch of fallen angels and this girl's family either got caught in the crossfire or they were the fallen angels. Maybe they found some witness protection by possessing the girl's family after she was born? Perhaps she didn't know they were angels and figured the garrison murdered them? 

Or maybe one of her parents was a fallen angel - remember Anna didn't remember that she was a fallen angel - and maybe the witch inherited the ability to see angels, and so when the angels finally figured out one of her parents was a fallen angel and killed him/her - as was their usual M.O. - she saw this happen? Her other parent might've been killed trying to save the fallen angel parent. But to her (the witch), it would've just looked like supernatural beings killing her family that she would the have to late consult someone to find out what they were.

How interesting - or coincidental to this discussion - if the how she found out they were angels was because one of them lost a feather and she could see it and then used that to help discover that it was angels and exactly which group of angels killed her family.

Another maybe less likely scenario might be an accident. When Michael talked with Zachariah he just casually accidentally killed two people who were also in the bar. There were a bunch of angel killed demon hosts in season 4 also. An incident like that could explain a family death. The weird part would be the timing, since apparently this woman is from some time in the past, and in this scenario, I couldn't explain why angels would be there then. Unless she became a witch more recently and did some dimensional something to get more time to practice witchcraft - but that wouldn't make much sense to me.

Of course the above is all speculation and it could be something else entirely, but for me, this could all still make sense within the universe as long as the writers are careful. There are a few ways they could fit this in.

[AwesomO4000]

Not sure how the double post happened.

Please ignore.

Edited January 16, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[Goldmoon]

I used to be able to follow this thread.  Now, though .... Hoping Show gets cancelled soon.  I will stay with it until the end of this season, but this and last year's episodes were just BAD.

[catrox14]

14 hours ago, Goldmoon said:

I used to be able to follow this thread.  Now, though .... Hoping Show gets cancelled soon.  I will stay with it until the end of this season, but this and last year's episodes were just BAD.

It was just renewed for S13.

[ahrtee]

14 hours ago, Goldmoon said:

I used to be able to follow this thread.  Now, though .... Hoping Show gets cancelled soon.  I will stay with it until the end of this season, but this and last year's episodes were just BAD.

Others are apparently still watching and enjoying.  Anyone who dislikes it can stop watching at any time and without any need to justify their decision,  but understand that others may still be enjoying it and want it to continue, even if it sometimes goes off the rails.  

[MysteryGuest]

Yes, as much as I complain about the writing, I still feel that there's plenty of story left to tell about these two brothers and all things that go bump in the night.  I remain hopeful that they'll get back to telling those stories soon.

[AwesomO4000]

And sometimes the show still surprises me.

Even though some might disagree - and some wholeheartedly - season 11 surprised me in that there were quite a few episodes for me that ended up on my best of list for whatever reason, but sometimes due to characters. Characters have always been my thing, and season 11 had some good ones for me, even if they were sometimes one offs.

I think that's why I enjoyed season 7 more than most, because even though the storylines were sometimes depressing, for me there were a lot of characters introduced that I found really enjoyable - Frank, Dick Roman, Chet, Kevin, sometimes Charlie, Leviathan Sam and Dean, several of the psychics in Lilydale, Ranger Rick, even Joyce and her henpecked assistant whose name I can never seem to remember even though I remember some great quotes from him. And the hunter / owner of the thrift shop's son from that episode. And more. A lot of the one off characters were enjoyable for me whereas later on - until recently - the one off characters seemed more throwaway. I have a hard time remembering many of the one offs from season 8, 9, and much of 10 for example (There were exceptions: Marie and Maeve and Dash from "Ask Jeeves," but Cole... no). Metatron was an exception, but he mostly came into his own for me in season 11.

That's what's missing for me so far. Season 12 doesn't have as many interesting characters for me so far as season 11 did. I hope that will pick up as the season progresses and we get more into the one off episodes.

[mertensia]

George! Joyce's henpecked assistant was George. 

[ahrtee]

For those who were still wondering who the "unexpected" source of help the Winchesters turn to in the upcoming episode:

http://wegotthiscovered.com/tv/david-haydn-jones-joins-supernatural-season-12-key-role/

Deadline has confirmed tonight that David Hadyn-Jones has joined the cast of Supernatural as the mysterious Mr. Ketch. We actually met the character for the first time in the midseason premiere, but his appearance has been teased for months now. An associate of the British Men of Letters, he’s presented himself as an ally to Sam and Dean, but can he be trusted? While it seems like he wants to help them, Ketch also has a reputation for being extremely dangerous, so it’s every bit as likely that he’s arrived in America to take out the Winchesters.

That dangerous side is something that the official character description teases as well, as it’s said that this member of the shadowy organization of monster hunters operating in the UK is suave, handsome, totally competent and a sociopath. That’s definitely bad news, and something which is sure to come into play as Sam and Dean seek his help when Supernatural returns. After all, the last time we saw them, they had been arrested for the attempted assassination of President of the United States (who was possessed by Lucifer at the time).

[ZennyKenny]

My dream scene involving the "unlikely source" breaking Sam & Dean out:

"Dammit how did those Winchester boys get out from under our thumbs? We had them on lockdown-"

*cellphone rings*

"Hello? Who is this? What you do mean I've been Garthed? What the hell- hello? HELLO??"

[Demented Daisy]

Quote

That’s definitely bad news, and something which is sure to come into play as Sam and Dean seek his help when Supernatural returns.

Shocker.

I'm still waiting for an episode like Good God, Y'all or Abandon All Hope -- every recurring character (or close to) in an "all hands on deck" situation.  But if they did that, then Sam and Dean would have to explain to Jodi why they're working with the demon that tried to kill her.

Seriously, Crowley needs to die.  Then Rowena can become the Queen of Hell.  ;-)

[catrox14]

How much you wanna bet Sam ends up saving Lady McTortureLady from Mr.  Ketch given her fear of him. it would match with the ongoing fuckery of Sam having to help and even rescue his former tormentors for the sake of mankind.

[DittyDotDot]

Quote

That dangerous side is something that the official character description teases as well, as it’s said that this member of the shadowy organization of monster hunters operating in the UK is suave, handsome, totally competent and a sociopath.

Was there any doubt Mr. Ketch wasn't a sociopath? Seriously?

5 hours ago, ZennyKenny said:

"Hello? Who is this? What you do mean I've been Garthed? What the hell- hello? HELLO??"

BWAH HA HA HA!! You know, Garth is hit and miss with me, but this would be AWESOME!!! So, you know that's not gonna happen. 

1 hour ago, Demented Daisy said:

Seriously, Crowley needs to die.  Then Rowena can become the Queen of Hell.  ;-)

Hee!! 

[Demented Daisy]

19 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Was there any doubt Mr. Ketch wasn't a sociopath? Seriously?

If so, it should have disappeared as soon as he killed that psychic girl.

[goldy]

Supernatural showrunner talks Sam and Dean's future in (or out of) hunting

http://ew.com/tv/2017/01/19/supernatural-showrunner-sam-dean-future-season-12/?xid=entertainment-weekly_socialflow_twitter

When you enter the hunting lifestyle, there’s really only one way it ends, and it’s not great. At least, that’s how Dean views his future. But what about Sam? In Supernatural‘s early seasons, Sam pondered getting out of the game, settling down, and starting a family. Jump forward a few years and both brothers have tried that, only to be pulled right back into the Impala.

And yet, the “what comes next” question is one Sam and Dean are still debating, even in season 12. “It’s an ongoing theme,” showrunner Andrew Dabb tells EW. “You see that divide between Sam and Dean dating certainly back to season 3 and probably even before that. The question of, ‘What is Sam and Dean’s future?’ For a long time, their futures were based on each other. Would Sam stay a hunter, would he go back out of the life? Would Dean take a step back and retire or leave hunting? That was a question of, ‘Is this the life you want?’ It’s been something they’ve gone back and forth on. We’re now living in a reality where this is their life, this is what they’re going to do. I don’t think either one of them realistically looks at a world where they step away from this. That time has passed to a large degree.”

However, that’s not to say that the question has gone away. Rather, it’s evolved. “The question then becomes, ‘Okay if this is our life, how is it going to work out? How are we going to make this the best life we can?’ For Dean, the best life he can imagine is one where he fights until he dies. You never stop trying to make the world a better place,” Dabb says. “I think Sam agrees with that and Sam doesn’t want to stop making the world a better place, [but] Sam hopes they can get to the point where the world is such a good place that maybe they can take a step back from hunting, maybe they can either hand off the reins or be able to have a little bit more time [to] themselves.”

And believe it or not, this matter also applies to Castiel, whose future as an angel might seem more predictable — but then again, nothing’s ever really predictable in the Supernatural world. “For a long time, Cas has been in a little bit of a liminal place,” Dabb says. “He’s not part of heaven’s bureaucracy and hasn’t been for quite a while, that has been made very clear to him and will be made very clear in an episode this season how heaven views him. That’s caused a lot of problems for Cas, because he’s really felt like a man without a country for a while. Yes, Sam and Dean are his family and he’s extremely bonded with them, but the connection Sam and Dean have is not a connection that Cas can have with either of them because they’re brothers, they grew up together.”

At the end of the day, Dabb says the idea of everyone looking for their place and furthermore, how to make it their own once they find it, is central to this season. As he puts it, “That has become a real focal point for us in this season: Everybody looking for their place, looking for the way to do what they think is best in a world where it’s far, far too easy to do your worst.”

Edited January 19, 2017 by goldy

[ahrtee]

45 minutes ago, goldy said:

Dabb says. “I think Sam agrees with that and Sam doesn’t want to stop making the world a better place, [but] Sam hopes they can get to the point where the world is such a good place that maybe they can take a step back from hunting, maybe they can either hand off the reins or be able to have a little bit more time [to] themselves.”

So Sam wants to work with the BMoL in the hope that they can rid America of monsters (like they did England) so the boys can retire?  ...

Let's see...so Dean still doesn't trust them and doesn't want to work with them and they'll fight about it, and Sam will turn out to be wrong, because the BMoL really are the badguys themselves (at least, with their questionable methods). *sigh*  

And Cas will go back to heaven so he won't be available as the third amigo/Cas ex machina every time, but can still show up as a guest star to save their lives when necessary.

[catrox14]

So.., Dabb, is  not saying anything new about Sam and Dean nor Cas.

[catrox14]

I just noticed on this Tweet from Jim Michaels  that was posted upthread  Singer is listed as Executive Consultant vs EP and Jeremy Carver is EP on the Ep and no mention of Dabb. That seems peculiar

 

 

And Pellegrino replied so I guess that means he's back as Lucifer?

Edited January 19, 2017 by catrox14

[Demented Daisy]

That is troubling.  Here's a reminder of 14:

 

I'm going to assume that Frequency is effectively cancelled.

[catrox14]

Carver was still listed as EP all season so maybe they always left the door open for Carver if Frequency wasn't renewed. 

Maybe Dabb is finding showrunner  something more daunting than he prefers and he doesn't want to do it OR maybe a spinoff is in the works and Dabb will helm the spinoff. Just some musings. 

Hmmm I just checked imdb and Dabb is listed as EP through 12.10

But they also don't have much detail beyond director and cast for the eps after that.
 

Quote

Supernatural (TV Series) (co-executive producer - 52 episodes, 2013 - 2016) (executive producer - 24 episodes, 2014 - 2017) (producer - 24 episodes, 2011 - 2014) (supervising producer - 17 episodes, 2012 - 2013)

 

- Lily Sunder Has Some Regrets (2017) ... (executive producer)

- First Blood (2017) ... (executive producer)

- LOTUS (2016) ... (executive producer)

- Rock Never Dies (2016) ... (executive producer)

- Celebrating the Life of Asa Fox (2016) ... (executive producer)

 

Edited January 19, 2017 by catrox14

[Demented Daisy]

Well, if Carver is back *sigh*, it would explain why the DRAH-MA in Dabb's interview (above) sounds so familiar.

[AwesomO4000]

Definitely not what I would want. It's generally worse in that we generally know how the DRAH-MA is going to play out. Dean's going to read the people and situation correctly and Sam is going to be overly hopeful / overly-pessimistic (depending on the situation) and read the situation incorrectly. That was pretty much the pattern over and over during season 8-10.

I agree with @ahrtee on this one. We can pretty much know how a character is going to turn out based on how Dean reacts to him/her.

[ahrtee]

4 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I agree with @ahrtee on this one. We can pretty much know how a character is going to turn out based on how Dean reacts to him/her.

Well, TBH, I wasn't thinking that it was based on how Dean reacts.  I was thinking that they're sticking with the "Sam always wants to trust/give the benefit of the doubt and Dean never trusts anyone."  It's just unfortunate that they usually have "can't be trusted" as the right answer.  (OK, Benny was the exception to that pattern, but, honestly, it took a year for Dean to trust him, and they were forced to work together and get to know each other.  Sam didn't have that luxury...plus, for some very stupid reason, he was jealous...?)  

Besides, Dean was against Lenore and the Pishtaco and pretty much everyone in American Nightmare, and it seems Sam was right those times...(I'm sure there are more, but those are the only ones I can think of offhand.)

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

Besides, Dean was against Lenore and the Pishtaco and pretty much everyone in American Nightmare, and it seems Sam was right those times...(I'm sure there are more, but those are the only ones I can think of offhand.)

You're right that Dean isn't always right, but for me, the variation is less applicable to the Carver years*. I think it's telling that two of your 3 examples above are from either before or after Carver's tenure. And Carver took care of Sam being right about the Pishtaco by having Sam spout a whole bunch of stuff Sam - and we the viewers - knew was wrong concerning Dean at the end of that episode, plus make the "No, I wouldn't" declaration that set up that whole DRAH-MA situation where Carver ended up making Sam wrong about that in the end ("I lied"). So give Sam a little, take away a whole bunch in that episode. (Sidebar - I hate that episode.)

And there was ultimately Chuck/God, who did turn out to help in the end as Sam hoped, but I'm guessing that that was less Carver at that point and more Dabb's influence, since the beginning of season 11 was more typical with Sam being wrong about the visions.

* I should've made that distinction in my original declaration and prefaced it with "During the Carver seasons, we (or at least I) can pretty much know how a character is going to turn out...." My oversight there. Typically when I'm complaining it's about the Carver years - I have little problem with the previous seasons except a little bit season 4 - so sometimes I forget that it's not obvious that when I'm complaining, I'm usually referring to season 8-9 and a little bit 10. Since in my head, of course, it's a given. ; )

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

I was thinking that they're sticking with the "Sam always wants to trust/give the benefit of the doubt and Dean never trusts anyone."  It's just unfortunate that they usually have "can't be trusted" as the right answer.  (OK, Benny was the exception to that pattern, but, honestly, it took a year for Dean to trust him, and they were forced to work together and get to know each other.  Sam didn't have that luxury...plus, for some very stupid reason, he was jealous...?)

But it's not just Benny. Somehow Crowley - who Sam wanted to kill from the moment he met him* - became a useful frenemy, mostly because of his association with Dean. And that mostly happened in the Carver years. Or at least the WTFery part of that did - since after the end of season 8, there should've been no way in hell they ever trusted Crowley again.  Admittedly that started in season 7ish, but it kind of had to, because of Castiel and the Leviathan problem... and at the end of season 7, it turned out still that Crowley was for himself - he took Kevin and the tablet after all. Nowadays, though, and especially starting season 9, Crowley's becoming less "enemy" and more helpful.

And there was Meg, too, who also turned out to be reliable when Dean thought she would be and ended up being helpful and even sacrificed herself to save Sam and Dean during the Carver seasons. Though admittedly that trend started in season 7 also when Sam questioned leaving Castiel with Meg while Dean trusted her to watch Cas and of course Dean turned out to be - somehow - right. Carver just took it even further with Meg sacrificing herself.

And yes, the Sam hates Benny on sight plot was entirely stupid.

* I kind of actually love that running gag that Sam is always trying to kill Crowley, because I agree with Sam on that one. Crowley entirely deserves to die... after being covered in spiders.

Of course I should be more optimistic, maybe if Carver comes back he will have learned to reduce the DRAH-MA and vary the results a little... (And then hell froze over. ; ) )

Edited January 20, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[mertensia]

Crowley's still alive because he's a survivor and (mostly) can play the boys like fiddles. Also because Sterling never loses. No, wait. Sorry. Wrong show. Ahem. Anyhow.