Spoilers With Speculation

[SueB]

29 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm not understanding why you would think this wasn't part of all the promo shooting when it's on the same stage in the same wardrobe? Chico was on set with them for all this. I don't think he was told specifically to phrase it that way, but I sure do think they were given guidelines about what to talk about which means reinforcing that Mary is there for both Sam and Dean not just Dean.

Since you were complaining about the writing, I thought you were insisting that Jensen was told to reframe it as Mary was a gift for both.  I think those are Jensens' words, not direction from EP's. 

[DittyDotDot]

52 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Here's something else I don't understand.  Ghost!Mary recognized both adult!Dean and adult!Sam in Home. Her soul recognized them. Am I now to believe that her soul doesn't remember seeing her adult children when she sacrificed herself to save them?

It's almost like Mary doesn't even know that she died that night nor that Sam died.

They've got a lot of splainin' to do.

Okay, I'll give you this one catrox, thinking on it more, if there's anyone she doesn't recognize it should be Sam...I mean, have you watched S1 lately? But, since Jensen doesn't age... . ;)

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, SueB said:

Since you were complaining about the writing, I thought you were insisting that Jensen was told to reframe it as Mary was a gift for both.  I think those are Jensens' words, not direction from EP's.

IMO he's either given an outline of story points he can talk about or he knows enough to talk about those story points.  Same with Jared. They aren't going to say something that doesn't support the ongoing story arc for a promo. That's my whole point.

Edited October 12, 2016 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

My guess was always that even though there was physical torture and sexual assault for Sam - that seemed clear from the things Hallucifer said* and the glimpses of hell memory we saw - there was maybe more psychological manipulation, because Lucifer seemed like that kind of guy, and Hallucifer seemed to play similar mind games and allude to similar kinds of mind games. I always assumed that Hallucifer was at least somewhat based on how Lucifer actually was and talked about things that Lucifer actually did. So my guess was always that there was torture at times, but also stretches of psychological stuff, including long periods of nothingness when Lucifer instead fought with Michael or amused himself in other ways and just left Sam alone in the dark silence with nothing but his own thoughts.

Because yes, as you say, Dean's torture had a purpose. Sam was used for Lucifer's likely sick and twisted amusement.

But like your musings - these are only guesses/musings on my part as well.

* There was a Hallucifer comment where he said something about them testing the limits of pain before and finding new levels.

[rue721]

3 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I'm hoping that since there is no real Big Bad this season, the focus of the episodes will be on both brothers this season, like it was last year.

S1 had more of a Big Mission than a Big Bad, too, and imo it would be cool if they went back to that set up again.

That's why I mentioned the idea of Mary wanting to look for John's soul, a la the S1 mission of Sam and Dean looking for John. Of course it could be something different than that particular mission. Tbh that mission didn't even work that well in S1, so something different would probably be better regardless. But I think that that would be a better structure (for the season arc to be "mission based"), now that they've gone so over the top with the Big Bads.

It's not even that they couldn't find a way to go even bigger with the Big Bads if they really tried, but imo with Amara they already crossed the line into threats that were too existential to actually be scary. Like, the "no existence" thing is just too much to wrap your head around.

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Here's something else I don't understand.  Ghost!Mary recognized both adult!Dean and adult!Sam in Home. Her soul recognized them. Am I now to believe that her soul doesn't remember seeing her adult children when she sacrificed herself to save them?

Or hell, maybe it was some kind of spiritual echo of Mary that was at the house and not Mary's actual soul. Personally, I'd be cool with them doing whatever handwave they need/want to do in order to get to the story they want to tell now. I just don't care that much about ghost!Mary, honestly. Of course YMMV.

Mostly, I hope they don't get hung up on where Mary has been. Doing that in S6 of Buffy was a mistake, imo, and hopefully the writers of SPN will take heed. (The reason I thought it was a mistake in Buffy is similar to why I thought Amara was a mistake as a storyline, and even some of the afterlife stuff in SPN has been a mistake. It's just too unrelatable and too abstract. Who can relate to being dead or being sorry that they're no longer dead?).

Well, I mean, the afterlife could be interesting and all. But how Mary and Sam and Dean all react to getting to know each other seems like it would be really fascinating, and I'm hoping that that storyline doesn't get short changed.

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

In that little snippet we just got, it doesn't appear that she does know she died.  Dean tells her he was four when she died.  At least based on that clip, he doesn't exactly ease her into the news.  That's our boy!

LOL. That hadn't even occurred to me. That's hilarious.

49 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

IMO he's either given an outline of script with story points he can talk about. Same with Jared. They aren't going to say something that doesn't support the ongoing story arc for a promo.

They're probably given talking points. And for all we know, the talking point for Mary was something like "Getting to know Mom!" or whatever. I doubt it was all that specific.

Personally, I wouldn't read that much into the exact wording because I think it was probably just Jensen hitting his talking point (in his own words). And it doesn't shock me that he would go in the direction of "this is a big deal for Sam and Dean..." because that seems to be how he often frames things. He seems like a team player.

ETA:

I also think that Mary being in the picture will change Sam and Dean's relationship with each other. Imo that's actually one of the most interesting things about her being there.

So I don't think the situation is zero sum, and that Sam/Mary's relationship will be at the expense of Dean/Mary's (or vice versa). Instead, I expect that Sam/Mary's relationship will inform Sam/Dean's relationship which will inform Dean/Mary's which will inform Dean/Sam's which will inform Sam/Mary's, etc.

Edited October 12, 2016 by rue721
gratuitous use of scare quotes

[Aeryn13]

Quote

but I sure do think they were given guidelines about what to talk about which means reinforcing that Mary is there for both Sam and Dean not just Dean.

The writers phrased it like that as well in interviews. It`s par of the course for the show IMO. Season 11 is over so whatever might have been just for Dean, i.e. Amara`s gift, is now reinvented into being about both. It would be different in the reverse but this, I expected. 

I always thought bringing Mary back was a strange and iffy choice, it`s just too weird after three decades being dead and I`m not gonna wait around until they got their Mary Sue-ness out of the way. The character will be ruined by then already. All it takes is one or two episodes of the zero sum game and I believe those episodes will be the first two of the Season.

Other than that, we have the MOL who also come across like annoying Sues, only evil ones. I don`t care one whit for the "tortured and proctective" brother routine they have done a million times before. That leaves the Cas/Crowley/Lucifer plot maybe having the potential to be amusing? I don`t know. But since 98 % of my interest are tied up in what Dean does, I don`t expect much from the Premiere or ep 2. Previously, I was looking forward to badass scenes but since those go to Mary now, I guess not. He might have a nice dialogue scene with her? Possibly. Maybe.

[Bessie]

I'm more excited about this season opener than I have been in years! I'm kind of shocking myself, but the Mary storyline is very intriguing and I love how it can incorporate both brothers organically. And be used for character exploration, which is what I watch for. The British MoL can also be about both boys. It's a nice change up.

Edited October 12, 2016 by Bessie

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, Bessie said:

I'm more excited about this season opener than I have been in years! I'm kind of shocking myself, but the Mary storyline is very intriguing and I love how it can incorporate both brothers organically. And be used for character exploration, which is what I watch for. The British MoL can also be about both boys. It's a nice change up.

That's what I've been saying! Wait...are you me in a very convincing disguise? ;)

[Demented Daisy]

35 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Wait...are you me in a very convincing disguise? ;)

Hey!  That's my job!  ;-)

[goldy]

Supernatural EP Previews Complicated Winchester Family Reunion, 'Very Driven' Cas and More in Season 12

http://tvline.com/2016/10/12/supernatural-spoilers-season-12-mary-returns-british-men-of-letters/

[Diane]

41 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

That's what I've been saying! Wait...are you me in a very convincing disguise? ;)

I agree also, very excited to see where this all goes!

[Myrelle]

6 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Other than that, we have the MOL who also come across like annoying Sues, only evil ones. I don`t care one whit for the "tortured and proctective" brother routine they have done a million times before

I don't care about it either, mainly because when they've gone that route in the past, that's all they've given to Jensen as far as a role in the myth-arc was concerned. I've loved seeing Dean at the center of the myth-arc since mid-season 9, so the big question for me isn't about whether Mary's resurrection is going to involve both brothers because she's mother to them both(even though she was undeniably Amara's gift to Dean, alone, in the S11 finale IMO, too-Jensen's comment notwithstanding-but Mary's resurrection being her gift to Dean alone was likely written that way because the Amara character was All About Dean since she came on the scene, and thankfully they never changed that and what a nice change that was!) But I never felt that Mary's resurrection was going to be Dean's story alone. It doesn't even sound like they're trying to pawn it off on us that way any longer-or at least Jensen's not. I'm expecting very little from the first two episodes. They sound cut-and-paste to me and it also sounds and looks as if Mary Susan Winchester will certainly make an appearance as part of said cut-and-paste writing to me. Sadly, that element of the writing is also to be expected at this point from the writers of this show, IMO. It's why I'm DVRing the first two, at least.

rThe more important question for me is will they have the MOLs sl be about both brothers also-because they're both MOLs, too!-or will that one become  just another SpecialSam storyline. We could find out in the premiere when we find out why they're torturing Sam. This-along with the fear that they will take the hunting leadership role from Dean and hand it over to Mary-is my greatest concern for what's coming up for Dean/JA(the only reason that I'm still watching this show) in S12. The brothers are finally on somewhat of an equal footing as far as Chosen One status is concerned and AFAIC. Hopefully, the writers will keep it that way. But if they try to take Dean's leadership role away, as far as the hunts go, only to give it over to SuperHunterMary, then they can stuff that and her return because that is the kind of stuff that will ruin the character and the storyline for me. I don't want Dean reduced to just and only emo again. That is an insult to Jensen Ackles' range as an actor, IMO. We should at least get ActionDean back after his being MIA for most of S11, but I can't trust Dabb and Singer at all in that regard after S11.

Most of the Deanfans that I know long ago became accustomed to not expecting too much for the character out of the writers on this show. All we can hope for at this point is surprises. The only hopeful thing that I've heard come out of any interviews this summer was Jensen saying that the reveal of the Big Bad is very slow and drawn out, but he's very excited about it. It's not a whole lot to go on, though, so given the givens, so far, guarded caution still seems to be the best that I can muster up for S12. I'm always up for a surprise like the MOC storyline, though. Always.

Edited October 12, 2016 by Myrelle

[Bessie]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

That's what I've been saying! Wait...are you me in a very convincing disguise? ;)

I think I might be! (As an aside, when I'm responding to you or Demented Daisy, I always have this urge to refer to you guys as D3 and D2. Because I'm lazy that way)

My enthusiasm for the direction the show appears to be going, based on these spoilers, is a bit frightening.

Edited October 12, 2016 by Bessie

[trxr4kids]

5 hours ago, Bessie said:

I think I might be! (As an aside, when I'm responding to you or Demented Daisy, I always have this urge to refer to you guys as D3 and D2.)

OMG can I use that, I love it!

Anyways @catrox14 I agree Mary should recognize Dean and the clips so far all seem like awkward exposition for new viewers or possibly because the writers think we need as many reminders of cannon as they do. It makes no sense to me at least. Speaking of cannon, will Satan Springfield be swilling demon blood, because IIRC he should be since even his perfect vessel had to. I realize Cas didn't but he had been rebuilt by Guck 2 times at least which I figured made him an extra super duper special vessel.

Edited October 12, 2016 by trxr4kids

[Diane]

http://tvline.com/2016/10/12/supernatural-spoilers-season-12-mary-returns-british-men-of-letters/

TVLine spoke with executive producer Andrew Dabb about Mama Winchester’s homecoming, Dean and Sam’s two-front war, Castiel’s new ‘tude and more.

TVLINE | How do Dean and Sam each feel about Mary’s return? 
They’re happy and conflicted. It’s like a miracle. But the Mary who’s coming back is someone who had walked away from hunting but now walks in a world where her sons are hunters. That’s the last thing she ever wanted. She’s been in Heaven for [33] years. That’s obviously changed her. So Sam and Dean are happy to have her back, but they’re worried [about] how she’ll adjust [to] not only the modern world and technology and that kind of stuff but [also] to them and their lives, and [wondering] if she will be what they have become.

FYI, since we were discussing this yesterday.

[trxr4kids]

Oh, she's been in heaven for 33 years, I must have been watching a different show and just got confused because I thought she was haunting her old house,(huge eye roll) weird. They seriously need to hire someone to check their own damn cannon before they produce a final script. It's like they're all, well yeah but that was so 8 seasons ago.

I mean the whole show was centered around the death of Mary, it's a pretty big deal to screw with her story, worse IMO than the purgatory entrance fiasco and the reaper mess.

Edited October 12, 2016 by trxr4kids
random thoughts about cannon

[Aeryn13]

Quote

We should at least get ActionDean back after his being MIA for most of S11

Yeah, Season 11 was so incredibly disappointing in that regard. I mean, those were the flattest, let-downiest standalones for the character in the history of ever. And okay some of the most offensive writers are gone but in their place are some very, very green newbies. And Dabb most certainly can`t deliver if I go by last Season. Yikes.  

Quote

Oh, she's been in heaven for 33 years, I must have been watching a different show and just got confused because I thought she was haunting her old house,(huge eye roll)

Hey, if they retconned Home out of existance, does that mean that loathsome Misery never existed either? Because, hey, I`d take that.

In all seriousness, I think the current writers work in three stages:  stage a) they can not remember a single thing from before they individually joined the show, stage b) they can barely remember anything from their own years that wasn`t  written by them specifically and stage c) they might remember stuff from their own episodes. But nothing is guaranteed. 

I guess I can`t fault that interview for not giving me anything interesting because none of the questions asked is anything I wanted to know. Yawn.

[Diane]

2 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Yeah, Season 11 was so incredibly disappointing in that regard. I mean, those were the flattest, let-downiest standalones for the character in the history of ever. And okay some of the most offensive writers are gone but in their place are some very, very green newbies. And Dabb most certainly can`t deliver if I go by last Season. Yikes.  

Hey, if they retconned Home out of existance, does that mean that loathsome Misery never existed either? Because, hey, I`d take that.

In all seriousness, I think the current writers work in three stages:  stage a) they can not remember a single thing from before they individually joined the show, stage b) they can barely remember anything from their own years that wasn`t  written by them specifically and stage c) they might remember stuff from their own episodes. But nothing is guaranteed. 

I guess I can`t fault that interview for not giving me anything interesting because none of the questions asked is anything I wanted to know. Yawn.

Really going to have to disagree or big YMMV.  The stand alone or MOW episodes of season 11 I think were some of the best in a long time.  Into the Mystic, Just My Imagination, Baby, Plush, Thin Lizzie, Don't You Forget About Me, Beyond the Mat and The Chitters.  they were entertaining and some even moved the myth arc along a little without being overwhelming.  But hey that is just me.  I even loved The Vessel, I know some didn't.

[trxr4kids]

9 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

In all seriousness, I think the current writers work in three stages:  stage a) they can not remember a single thing from before they individually joined the show, stage b) they can barely remember anything from their own years that wasn`t  written by them specifically and stage c) they might remember stuff from their own episodes. But nothing is guaranteed.

Wow, it's like you read my mind because I've been thinking that for quite awhile. I also think as long as Singer and Buck-Lemming are still a huge part of the show this will continue.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, Myrelle said:

The more important question for me is will they have the MOLs sl be about both brothers also-because they're both MOLs, too!-or will that one become  just another SpecialSam storyline

No SpecialSam...or DarlingDean...story-line here:

From the link posted above: http://tvline.com/2016/10/12/supernatural-spoilers-season-12-mary-returns-british-men-of-letters/  (emphasis mine)

TVLINE | Is the Men of Letters’ British chapter the biggest threat to Dean and Sam in Season 12?
They’re a threat. Lady Toni Bevell has got it in for our boys.

Call me crazy, but I interpret "our boys" to mean both brothers.

1 hour ago, Myrelle said:

This-along with the fear that they will take the hunting leadership role from Dean and hand it over to Mary-is my greatest concern for what's coming up for Dean

Pfft.  Please.  That ain't gonna happen.

[catrox14]

49 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

The only hopeful thing that I've heard come out of any interviews this summer was Jensen saying that the reveal of the Big Bad is very slow and drawn out, but he's very excited about it

I'm trying to figure who the Big Bad will be if it's not EVMoL. 

Quote

TVLINE | What does Lucifer get up to with his rock-star vessel?
At first, he’s bouncing from vessel to vessel. He’s wounded in the final fight with Amara. When he finally finds someplace to stop, he looks around, and he’s like, “God’s gone. I have a free playing field here. I could go take over Heaven or Hell, but is that what I really want?” What he discovers is that, in some ways, God had the right idea — worship is fun. Unfortunately, there’s a lot of baggage with the name Lucifer. So for him, popping into someone like the rock star Vince Vincente allows him experience that almost God-like worship in another body.

Say what? I don't understand why they are taking Lucifer down this path. It's completely uninteresting to me and such a cliche. It makes no sense to the Lucifer that's always been.

Lucifer already knows what being worshiped is like. He was worshiped by demons FFS, HELLO RUBY.  He was THEIR GOD! Lucifer didn't want to be worshiped by humanity at all. He loathes humanity. That's why he created Lilith in the first place which in turn got him cast into Hell by Michael at God's behest. The whole point of raising Lucifer from the cage was so he could ceate the freaking Apocalypse resulting in the complete destruction of humanity. He never cared about humanity worshiping him.  They are beneath him.

If they try to turn this into Lucifer just really wanted to be loved by humans all along and he was just misunderstood...nope. I am 100% not interested in any further de-fanging of the biggest bad this show has ever had nor Lucifer having a redemption arc of some kind.

The only way this notion of Lucifer enjoying being worshiped by humanity is if he is is going to use it against humanity to restart Apocalypse 2.0. To try and finish what he started when the damn Winchesters fucked it up for him. 

As to the Big Bad for the season, if it's not really the EVMoL, I hope it's Death coming back and being a real threat now that God/Amara have skipped town. But even more  I REALLY hope the show starts  working towards the return of  Jesse as the Anti-Christ since he is really the biggest bad left on the board that they have never played. I would 100% be down for Jesse to be the final big bad for the Winchesters to face as an end to show.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Lucifer already knows what being worshiped is like. He was worshiped by demons FFS, HELLO RUBY.  He was THEIR GOD!

Yeah but he really seemed to hate them. I think he wanted to be worshipped either by angels or at least by humans. Demons just weren`t cutting it for him. I don`t know. They seem to go the goofy Crowley route with Lucifer and well, the original character they did that with is still on the show so it`s just...I don`t know.   

[RulerofallIsurvey]

30 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm trying to figure who the Big Bad will be if it's not EVMoL. 

Sounds like there's not neccessarily going to be a Big Bad.  Or at least one Big Bad:

"TVLINE | Coming off a season where you have a Big Bad as grand as The Darkness and God as a character, is the idea to introduce not necessarily smaller but more down-to-Earth villains and threats for the Winchesters?
I think so. For us, it’s a chance to explore…"

30 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Lucifer already knows what being worshiped is like. He was worshiped by demons FFS, HELLO RUBY.  He was THEIR GOD! Lucifer didn't want to be worshiped by humanity at all. He loathes humanity. That's why he created Lilith in the first place which in turn got him cast into Hell by Michael at God's behest. The whole point of raising Lucifer from the cage was so he could ceate the freaking Apocalypse resulting in the complete destruction of humanity. He never cared about humanity worshiping him.  They are beneath him.

If they try to turn this into Lucifer just really wanted to be loved by humans all along and he was just misunderstood...nope. I am 100% not interested in any further de-fanging of the biggest bad this show has ever had nor Lucifer having a redemption arc of some kind.

One small nit: I thought Lucifer twisted Lillith's soul to make her evil.  I didn't think he created her, did he?

Anyway...Agree with you about the de-fanging and redemption of the Devil.  I don't want it.  Don't want to see it.  Not yet at least.  (Although there is apparently an old Jewish tradition in which Lucifer repents and is forgiven of his sins and reinstated to his rightful place in Heaven...but I digress.)  

Maybe the 'worship' Lucifer realizes he likes so much, is that worship from humans.  Not being loved, the way God/Guck wants to be loved.  But being worshiped in the same twisted way that he was worshiped by demons, except now by humans - possibly because he's not getting that worship from demons any longer.  So, no I don't think Lucifer would want to be loved by humans - but just to use them to his own ends, and to prop his own ego and turn them away from Guck.  (which is a conventional interpretation of him.)

ETA: and kinda what @Aeryn13 said above.  :)

30 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

As to the Big Bad for the season, if it's not really the EVMoL, I hope it's Death coming back and being a real threat now that God/Amara have skipped town. But even more  I REALLY hope the show starts  working towards the return of  Jesse as the Anti-Christ since he is really the biggest bad left on the board that they have never played. I would 100% be down for Jesse to be the final big bad for the Winchesters to face as an end to show.

As much as I'd love to see Death back (and only on this show would that sound anything other than crazy) I don't want to see Death as a BigBad.  

Jesse the Anti-Christ as the final villian the brothers have to defeat is an interesting idea though.  So long as it's a grown up (not child!) and full on evil Anti-Christ Jesse.

Edited October 12, 2016 by RulerofallIsurvey

[catrox14]

40 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Yeah but he really seemed to hate them. I think he wanted to be worshipped either by angels or at least by humans. Demons just weren`t cutting it for him. I don`t know. They seem to go the goofy Crowley route with Lucifer and well, the original character they did that with is still on the show so it`s just...I don`t know.

It's always seemed to me Lucifer thought humans and demons were both beneath him since he only believed that angels were of value. Regardless, it doesn't matter whether he likes or hates demons for them to worship him or for him to use them. He was angry with God for casting him out so he created the first demon, Lilith to destroy God's most beloved creation, humanity. I don't know when it was implied in show that Lucifer just wanted to be loved by the things he thinks are lesser beings. He wanted God to not require him to love humans more than he loved God. I don't think that ever changed.

35 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

One small nit: I thought Lucifer twisted Lillith's soul to make her evil.  I didn't think he created her, did he

He created Lilith, the first demon, by twisting her human soul. Not sure where the discrepancy lies.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

s much as I'd love to see Death back (and only on this show would that sound anything other than crazy) I don't want to see Death as a BigBad.  

Even though Death isn't evil or motivated by anything other than keeping the Natural Order of life and death, he's still a Horseman right along with War, Pestilence, and Famine. So to my mind he is still a big bad/villain even though I like him. He didn't smite Dean in s5 because he wanted to be unbound from Lucifer who was controlling Death to destroy humanity. He's tolerated Dean because he likes him but I think after Dean killed him/presumed to kill him,never mind the whole Darkness being released thing, I think Dean and Sam are no longer on Death's list of amoeba he tolerates.He's a great character and one of the last remaining real threats to the Winchesters.

Edited October 12, 2016 by catrox14

[RulerofallIsurvey]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

He created Lilith, the first demon, by twisting her human soul. Not sure where the discrepancy lies.

Thought you meant he created Lilith herself, vessel and soul and all - out of nothing - (as in the creation of the world).  That's all.  Just a difference in interpretation/use of the word create.  

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, Diane said:

She’s been in Heaven for [33] years.

So that was Misha given the company line. That is ridiculous. LOL Sigh.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

12 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Even though Death isn't evil or motivated by anything other than keeping the Natural Order of life and death, he's still a Horseman right along with War, Pestilence, and Famine.

Interestingly, according the the bible anyway, Death (and Hades or Hell, depending on the translation) actually also has some authority over Pestilence and Famine: Revelations 6:7-8 7 "When he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature call out, “Come!” 8 I looked and there was a pale green horse! Its rider’s name was Death, and Hades followed with him; they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, famine, and pestilence, and by the wild animals of the earth.

Just thought that was cool as I'd never noticed it before.  That's all.

15 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

So to my mind he is still a big bad/villain even though I like him.

IMO, the only reason the horsemen were BigBadVillain in the first place was because the angels and demons were manipulating them into continuing the Apocalypse so that Lucifer and Michael could have their big showdown.  Otherwise, seems to me, they are perfectly happy hanging out doing whatever they normally do.  So the only reason the Winchesters would have to fight them again would be if they - again - went off the reservation.  And since as you said above, Death just want to keep the Natural Order, that doesn't translate as BigBadVillain to me.  Besides...

21 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

He's a great character and one of the last remaining real threats to the Winchesters.

Heh.  I guess you could say Death is a real threat to us all.  Depending on how one looks at it, of course.  I tend to think of the line from  The Mummy: "Death is only the beginning."

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

hought you meant he created Lilith herself, vessel and soul and all - out of nothing - (as in the creation of the world).  That's all.  Just a difference in interpretation/use of the word create.  

I gotcha.  I think 'create' has a much broader interpretation. In this case, Lucifer created a new entity, by purposefully destroying God's creation from the inside out. Humans are no longer humans after Lucifer burns away their humanity through all manner of pain and torture.

[goldy]

Here's another promo, this time an Australian Promo, with slightly more scenes than the US one:

http://www.spoilertv.com/2016/09/supernatural-season-12-promo.html?utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter

 

 

Edited October 12, 2016 by goldy

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Just now, catrox14 said:

I gotcha.  I think 'create' has a much broader interpretation. In this case, Lucifer created a new entity, by purposefully destroying God's creation from the inside out. Humans are no longer humans after Lucifer burns away their humanity through all manner of pain and torture.

Okay, I see where you're going with that, but I disagree.  I don't think create confers the right connotation in this instance.  In that case, one could say that Crowley 'created' Dean when he put the First Blade in his hand so that he would come back as a demon, and I really don't want to go there.  Or would it be that Lucifer 'created' DemonDean, by your interpretation (since he created demons)?  Eh.  I don't like or agree with either one.  But like I said, just a difference in usage is all.  

[catrox14]

Essentially to my mind, the vast majority of demons are created at the hands of someone else. 

Alastair was tormenting Dean until he finally broke and shed blood. I think Dean didn't become a demon because Cas saved him and his purpose was already served by breaking in Hell and shedding blood, but eventually he would have become a demon in the  conventional manner. As an aside, I shudder to think it, but there is a good chance that during the 10 years Dean tortured others in Hell, he created one or more demons. :(:( (That would actually be one hell of a plot line to have a demon he made come back and find Dean to get retribution but I'm sure that will never happen).

Cain was different because he made a deal to save Abel, and was given the Mark by Lucifer in that deal and became a Knight of Hell and in turn made other Knights of Hell. What is unclear to me is if those were already demons and they just got an upgrade on skills or if they were humans that he passed the Mark and then killed so they would resurrect as Knights of Hell or what. Apparently Dean was also a Knight of Hell even though we never saw him in action as such.  (SO DAMN MUCH POTENTIAL WITH DEMON DEAN. So many bittercakes on my table. LOL)

Even though Crowley himself was not the entity or force that actually twisted Dean's soul which turns out to be the Darkness via the Mark, he did facilitate that eventuality. He was the sous chef, if you will. He prepared the ingredients, led him Dean to Cain's table and then finally put the knife in Dean's hand to ensure the outcome he was hoping would happen.

I suppose it could be argued that God created demons in the sense of 'gave rise to' because he locked away the Darkness which corrupted Lucifer.  Of course, now the question for me is did Lucifer think of making Lilith into a demon all of his own accord, or was it really the Darkness that told him to do that specific act?  At what point is it Lucifer acting of his own accord. Same thing with MoC!Dean.  But then Lucifer was an archangel and Dean and Cain were merely humans so how they would be influenced would likely be even worse than the affect on an archangel.

[auntvi]

20 hours ago, rue721 said:

I also think that Mary being in the picture will change Sam and Dean's relationship with each other. Imo that's actually one of the most interesting things about her being there.

You all have already moved on, but just want to say this could be very interesting and I hope they (the big, vague "they") take advantage of this opportunity to tinker a bit with Sam & Dean's relationship. Not a huge change, not a change in the character arcs, just a little different.

[DittyDotDot]

22 hours ago, Bessie said:

I think I might be! (As an aside, when I'm responding to you or Demented Daisy, I always have this urge to refer to you guys as D3 and D2. Because I'm lazy that way)

My enthusiasm for the direction the show appears to be going, based on these spoilers, is a bit frightening.

You can call me anything you like!! ;)

21 hours ago, Diane said:

http://tvline.com/2016/10/12/supernatural-spoilers-season-12-mary-returns-british-men-of-letters/

TVLine spoke with executive producer Andrew Dabb about Mama Winchester’s homecoming, Dean and Sam’s two-front war, Castiel’s new ‘tude and more.

TVLINE | How do Dean and Sam each feel about Mary’s return? 
They’re happy and conflicted. It’s like a miracle. But the Mary who’s coming back is someone who had walked away from hunting but now walks in a world where her sons are hunters. That’s the last thing she ever wanted. She’s been in Heaven for [33] years. That’s obviously changed her. So Sam and Dean are happy to have her back, but they’re worried [about] how she’ll adjust [to] not only the modern world and technology and that kind of stuff but [also] to them and their lives, and [wondering] if she will be what they have become.

FYI, since we were discussing this yesterday.

Actually, that 33 is in brackets. Meaning that was not part of Dabb's quote, but someone inserted it later thinking they needed to clarify. I'm not convinced Dabb was actually saying she's been in heaven for 33 years. He might have meant what he originally said, "Years.".

Which BTW, why they inserted all the extra words into Dabb's quote is a mystery to me. It was perfectly understandable without them and ruins the flow of the quote. 

Edited October 13, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[SueB]

Excellent point about the brackets

[Binns]

Aside: super sad we don't get to use Sam's "It's Wednesday!" anymore for episode air days. :(

[trxr4kids]

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Actually, that 33 is in brackets. Meaning that was not part of Dabb's quote, but someone inserted it later thinking they needed to clarify. I'm not convinced Dabb was actually saying she's been in heaven for 33 years. He might have meant what he originally said, "Years.".

Thanks @DittyDotDot, I was so irritated I didn't notice that. I've come to expect them to screw up cannon and it's hard to feel optimistic. But hey it's a new season and at least Carver is gone, it'd be hard for Dabb to do worse, so yeah. I think my optimism needs work.

[SueB]

7 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

Thanks @DittyDotDot, I was so irritated I didn't notice that. I've come to expect them to screw up cannon and it's hard to feel optimistic. But hey it's a new season and at least Carver is gone, it'd be hard for Dabb to do worse, so yeah. I think my optimism needs work.

 

Baby steps. Baby steps.  See the first two episodes, then re-evaluate.  I, of course, will remain TEAM SHOW ALMOST ALWAYS OPTIMISTIC (in all caps so you can hear me bubble about).  BTW, I also sing "Good Morning" from Singing In the Rain to my family members when they are tired and cranky.  It's the little things, innit?  

[goldy]

[companionenvy]

Quote

BTW, I also sing "Good Morning" from Singing In the Rain to my family members when they are tired and cranky.  It's the little things, innit?  

Haha, Sue B -- for me, it is the main "Singing in the Rain" song whenever I'm caught out in the rain with someone, complete with umbrella and swinging around lampposts when available :)

And yeah, I'm really feeling pumped about this season!

[catrox14]

41 minutes ago, Binns said:

Aside: super sad we don't get to use Sam's "It's Wednesday!" anymore for episode air days. :(

 

 

 I can't even post  The Thursday Teddy Bear GIF in the episode thread because it's locked now until  just before the episode airs :(.

Which makes me want to post this instead

[Diane]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 

 

 I can't even post  The Thursday Teddy Bear GIF in the episode thread because it's locked now until  just before the episode airs :(.

Which makes me want to post this instead

Thank you I missed it!

[Demented Daisy]

Hard to believe, episode 250.

[Diane]

So according to Jason Fischer they were on ep 248 yesterday, looks like they are shooting out of order. His tweet picture from yesterday.

 

 

[goldy]

2 hours ago, Diane said:

So according to Jason Fischer they were on ep 248 yesterday, looks like they are shooting out of order. His tweet picture from yesterday.

He just posted this:

[Demented Daisy]

So, what do we think?  Big fanfare for 250 or just another episode?

[goldy]

11 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

So, what do we think?  Big fanfare for 250 or just another episode?

Its episode 1209 so its the first one that they'll air after the mid season break so it got to be a big one IMO. 

[Demented Daisy]

Ah, that must be the reason for the early mid-season break we were talking about a couple of weeks ago....

[goldy]

1 minute ago, Demented Daisy said:

Ah, that must be the reason for the early mid-season break we were talking about a couple of weeks ago....

Maybe... we got absolutely no spoilers on it or on episode 1208. I suspect that those would be the episodes where they'll finally catch Lucifer.

[catrox14]

I'm still unclear about how many episodes we get this season. Was that ever 100% cleared up?