Spoilers With Speculation

[pixelcat]

3 hours ago, Demented Daisy said:

On the Mary topic, I wouldn't be surprised if, at some point in the season, Mary realizes that life on earth is not for her.  The world has, to borrow a phrase from Stephen King, moved on.  She doesn't belong there.  

So, if they can get the requisite actors for the cameos, Chuck and John could show up to escort Mary to Heaven, where she and John can spend eternity together.  I can't imagine Sam and Dean objecting to that too strongly.  *shrug*

Just a thought.

I was thinking something along those lines as well, but put Billie in the role of Chuck.  I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Billie did track her down at some point, saying she doesn't belong here.  Maybe even saying that Mary's been lost, and Billie's been looking a long time for her.

It seems like no matter what they do, TPTB have put themselves in a corner by opening up this door.  None of the outcomes are really that great, even if in the short term we get a payoff.  You turn Mary into Kevin and send her off to Branson.  Or you have her die, either sacrificing herself (again) for her children or just having her decide, as Benny did, she no longer belongs in this life.

[companionenvy]

That's why I still think Mary is going to wind up raising Lady of Letters's kid (who may or may not also be a surprise!nextgen!Winchester). To me, the only thing that would justify Mary leaving was that she had to protect -- not train -- an actual child who needed her far more than her now adult sons did. It seems to me it would also be a coherent end to her (likely) arc on the show: she'll struggle to cope with missing out on Sam and Dean's childhoods, and then take on the responsibility of raising a kid looking for a mother. 

That would remove Mary from her boys' day-to-day life while leaving her available for occasional contact as the storyline permitted. 

[Demented Daisy]

50 minutes ago, pixelcat said:

I was thinking something along those lines as well, but put Billie in the role of Chuck.  I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Billie did track her down at some point, saying she doesn't belong here.  Maybe even saying that Mary's been lost, and Billie's been looking a long time for her.

Billie occurred to me (because Reapers are angels now *eye roll*), as did Castiel taking her to Heaven, but since it was Amara that brought Mary back to earth, I was thinking of the symmetry of Chuck taking her to Heaven.

[goldy]

Supernatural' Season 12: It's Time For A 'Hunter's Wake', Andrew Dabb Previews Episode 6

http://www.enstarz.com/articles/173143/20160911/supernatural-season-12-its-time-for-a-hunters-wake-andrew-dabb-previews-episode-6-video.htm

Hunting is a dangerous lifestyle and the Winchester bros will have to say goodbye to one of their own in season 12. 'Supernatural' showrunner teases the 'hunter season.'

Saying farewell to a fallen hunter involves more than just your typical salt and burn. From John to Bobby to Charlie, Supernatural's Sam and Dean have grieved on their own, finding solace around a blazing pyre in the middle of nowhere. In Season 12, however, the Winchester boys will join their fellow demon slayers at a hunters wake.

Set to take place in episode 6, the wake will introduce viewers to a few new faces. Hunters general find their origins in tragedy (or tooth fairies, if you're Garth), but newcomers Alicia and Max will come equipped with a unique past.

"[Pretty Little Liars' Kara] Royster will play Alicia, a fellow hunter who crosses paths with Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles) in episode six of the upcoming season," Variety teased. "Raised by a witch, Alicia and her brother Max now hunt the things that go bump in the night."

The wake will allow Supernatural to press pause on the worlds of heaven and hell to return to the series' roots.

"This is called more the hunter season. The last seasons have been very heavily angel/demon. [Season 12] the focus is on hunters - both American and British- [their] different approaches, what works, what does, how they get along," co-showrunner Andrew Dabb told EnStars at San Diego Comic-Con. "In episode 6 we're going to see something we've essentially never seen before, which is a hunter's wake. We're going to get some ideas in terms of how [Sam and Dean] are viewed by other hunters, how they view other hunters. Again, it's all about building on this world that we have talked about for many years and we explored at some points with the Roadhouse and things like that, but it's not something that we've dived heavily into for a while."

The Winchester brothers have certainly had issues with fellow hunters in the past. Gordon attempted to off Sammy in season 2, Walt and Roy actually did kill Sam and Dean in season 5's "Dark Side of the Moon" (what ever happened to those guys anyway?), and the boys were on shaky ground with their grandfather's crew in season 6. Other than their trusted confidants - Bobby, Jo, Ellen, Garth, etc. - you rarely see the Winchesters team up with anyone in their field. And yet, they always seem to have someone to call when they can't take a case.

It seems season 12 will finally reveal a few of those connections and the reasons why certain hunters have stayed loyal to the Winchesters despite their habit of kick-starting the end times.

[MysteryGuest]

I like the idea of delving more deeply into the hunter's world.  And I'm glad they recognize just how much they've pushed the heaven/hell theme the past few seasons and that it's time for something different.  Honestly, I'd be happy with mainly MOW episodes this season.  They could still work in Mary's return and the MOL sub plot, but have the boys doing what they do best while all of that is going on.  I'm definitely intrigued by what I've heard so far for this season and I just hope the writing is up to the task.

[Diane]

3 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I like the idea of delving more deeply into the hunter's world.  And I'm glad they recognize just how much they've pushed the heaven/hell theme the past few seasons and that it's time for something different.  Honestly, I'd be happy with mainly MOW episodes this season.  They could still work in Mary's return and the MOL sub plot, but have the boys doing what they do best while all of that is going on.  I'm definitely intrigued by what I've heard so far for this season and I just hope the writing is up to the task.

I feel the same way, personally I would be happy with almost all MOW episodes this year. They really did them so well last season, I enjoyed all of them.

[goldy]

There are some spoilers in this EW article. The writer of the article was on the set (I think she was there while they were filming episode 1204, the psychics episode) and she describes what she saw on set.

Some of the spoilry highlight from the article:

The episode EW was on set for involved a location shoot at a farm in Vancouver, as well as some scenes back on the stages. Between the two, here’s what we witnessed:

• Lots and lots of gum. As Jensen Ackles put it, “Myself and Jared [Padalecki] always have gum in our mouths when we’re working.”
• A horse-drawn buggy. (It has to do with the episode. Yes, Dean makes an “Amish paradise” joke.)
• Two police cars, an ambulance, a coroner’s van, and a woman yelling about the devil.
• A crew member wearing an “Always Keep Fighting” shirt.
• Smoke machines around every corner.
• Padalecki and Ackles joking with the crew/watching YouTube videos between takes.
• A tied-up Sam Winchester. Because #Supernatural.

 

There is also this picture, posted by Kim Rhodes (That plays Jody on the show), it looks like she's on set and filming a scene with Samantha Smith (Mary) - this is episode 1206, the hunters wake episode:

 

 

Edited September 13, 2016 by goldy

[ZennyKenny]

On 9/12/2016 at 4:12 AM, goldy said:

"In episode 6 we're going to see something we've essentially never seen before, which is a hunter's wake. We're going to get some ideas in terms of how [Sam and Dean] are viewed by other hunters, how they view other hunters."

Ok now THIS little tidbit is something that gets me truly excited for next season. And quite frankly it's the first spoiler to do so. Expanding the Hunter world just sounds exciting! Especially since we know it already exists. Even though part of me understands the risks with expanding the Universe of a show that's supposed to be about two brothers, it gets to the point to where the writers makes so little sense because they try to force two opposing themes. Ex: The boys always say "family first", but yet they leave their brother in Hell, even with the King of Hell on speed dial. Or how it was up to the boys to prevent the entire Universe from ceasing to exist, but also the British Men of Letters just sitting back and watching it happen as they kept tabs on the boys. Or how the Winchesters just continue to hunt small-time monsters and ignore the fact that they found out that there was an entire city with 4 families of monsters controlling it (or whatever the plot of that "backdoor" episode was, I can't be bothered to look for specifics).

[Boopsahoy]

17 hours ago, goldy said:

There is also this picture, posted by Kim Rhodes (That plays Jody on the show), it looks like she's on set and filming a scene with Samantha Smith

Now this is interesting.

[goldy]

[catrox14]

I was just coming here to post that. ?   so Lady McTortureLady annoys me a lot. And the only way I can see them getting the upper hand on Dean and Cas is if they gas them or something. And I'm never not going to be annoyed with misplacement of the words in the show's slogan. NOPE. I reject that completely,

Dean seems pretty weirded out and rightfully so.

Edited September 14, 2016 by catrox14

[Aeryn13]

Quote

And the only way I can see them getting the upper hand on Dean and Cas is if they gas them or something.

Back at Comic Con, the BritMOL already got the description of how they haven`t had a supernatural death in their territory in 50 or so years. Back then I knew they were Mega Mary Sues. So yup, they will easily beat Dean and even a powered up angel with little brass knuckles because the awesomness shoots just that much out of their asses.

And Dean is chained up at the end. Let me guess, Mary will come in and save him. Since we are supposed to see what a great hunter she is. Maybe she can do backflips into the bad guy`s lair and then drop-kick fifty men at once whereas Dean gets taken down like the rankest amateur ever at various points in the episode. Just to really make a point as this show is wont to do.

I don`t know why they all likened Dean to Liam Neeson in Taken at Comic Con. Liam Nesson actually got to be a badass in those movies. HE was the one who managed to taken down the bad guys. Right now it looks more like Mary gets his role. 

[goldy]

Looks like Lady Toni will get hurt at some point during the Sam rescue operation 

 

And in this scene it looks like Cas is helping/protecting Mary while Dean is fighting that woman that was torturing Sam "

 

[goldy]

Will we see Castiel more this season on Supernatural? —Amy

http://tvline.com/2016/09/14/supernatural-season-12-spoilers-castiel/

It sure sounds like it. Showrunner Andrew Dabb told Vlada Gelman the goal for Season 12 was “to tell some stories that were a little bit more personal with Castiel, both in terms of his relationship with Sam and Dean and digging into his past a bit.” The angel will also hit it off with another Winchester. “He and Mary have a connection. It’s not a romantic one, but they have a lot in common. They’re both strangers in a strange land, in a way.” And following some very grand celestial plots, “We wanted to focus [Cas] down a bit more,” Dabb explains. “He feels responsible for Lucifer getting out of the cage, although as we’ll learn, pretty much everyone else on our show feels responsible for that, too. Obviously, as threats to Sam and Dean come up, he will be there to stand by our boys’ side.”

[catrox14]

Well I'm glad Dabb spelled out right away that there will be no romantic connection between Cas and Mary. 

[Demented Daisy]

Will God and Amara appear in season 12?

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Demented Daisy said:

Will God and Amara appear in season 12?

Quote

“We’re not going to play it heavily in season 12,” showrunner Andrew Dabb says of God and Amara’s story. “I wouldn’t say conclusively that their story is over, but I would say that their story is happening off-screen. God, in a lot of ways, trusts Sam and Dean more than he trusts himself. God has made mistakes. God has caused more destruction with the Amara thing, with the apocalypse and leaving the angels in charge, than Sam and Dean have. They have saved more people than he has, basically. He puts all his trust in them, or a lot of his trust in them, so I think he feels very comfortable stepping away.”

So instead of Chuck not telling the boys his making them do his dirty work, Chuck tells Dean the world is in good hands and that the Winchesters are now solely responsible for the fate of mankind? Did Dean exactly understand that before Chuck swanned off with Amara?  Am I reading that right?

[goldy]

This was posted on twitter - I'm guessing this guy is gonna play one of the hunters in the hunters wake episode.

 

[goldy]

Samantha Smith posted this on her twitter. I wonder if that's an old image from back when they were filming the first season (she does look younger there) or is this for S12? they might be shooting some kind of flashback episode.

Also; is that Jensen and Jared in the background?

[Myrelle]

She is so adorable. I really hope that they won't ruin her character for me this season.

[catrox14]

It could be BTS from Home maybe.

[AwesomO4000]

10 hours ago, goldy said:

This was posted on twitter - I'm guessing this guy is gonna play one of the hunters in the hunters wake episode.

Oh, man, that second picture. I love perogies so, so much, and they are hard to find in this area. I have to settle for the Mrs Ts frozen variety - when I can even find them. Now I want perogies...

P.S. I'm tired. My current schedule is going to end me for sure.

[DittyDotDot]

3 hours ago, goldy said:

Samantha Smith posted this on her twitter. I wonder if that's an old image from back when they were filming the first season (she does look younger there) or is this for S12? they might be shooting some kind of flashback episode.

I would guess, given the location, it's probably something from this season. Her stuff in Home was shot inside the house and I assume on stage. What Is And What Should Never Be she didn't wear the nightgown. All Hell Breaks Loose I, again, inside and presumably on stage. Same with Dark Side of the Moon (plus the night gown was all bloody in that one). Mommy Dearest, she wasn't wearing the nightgown. Is that all of her previous appearances?

My only conclusion is, this is from wherever Dean finds Mary after being resurrected. The scenery looks like that would fit. Perhaps it's something she took when they were filming the first episode this season or the finale last season and is just now getting around to posting it?

Edited September 15, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

Sam Smith posted it with the hashtag #TBT (Throwback Thursday) which implies its a picture that was actually taken in the past. Maybe last season for the finale.

[goldy]

46 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

My only conclusion is, this is from wherever Dean finds Mary after being resurrected. The scenery looks like that would fit. Perhaps it's something she took when they were filming the first episode this season or the finale last season and is just now getting around to posting it?

Giving her respond to this poster, I'm guessing you're right. As this is the scene where we know that she is going to wrestle Dean to the ground.
 

[catrox14]

I don't know where to put this but I'll put it here and y'all can tell me if ti's spoilery or not.  Someone had a set visit and got some BTS stuff about the history of Baby. 

http://ibelieveinthelittletreetopper.tumblr.com/post/150319088618/a-few-bits-about-baby-so-two-weeks-ago-i-got

Quote

 

A few bits about Baby….

So. Two weeks ago I got to see this girl in person, and yesterday I got to get in a replica and talk to Jeff Budnick, the picture car coordinator for the show. He also did a panel at RCCC. I wanted to share some cool stuff I learned.

-There are eight Impalas owned by the show. Jeff owns a few more of his own though (he owns about 150 cars that are used on a variety of shows in Vancouver).

-There are three Hero cars. Only Hero 1 has the Big Block engine that was put in during Baby’s break in season 7. You can hear that car coming blocks away. The pictures above are of Hero 2 which I think has been in the most episodes.

-There are three stunt cars. Stunt 3 has steel plates on the bottom to prevent damage to the undercarriage on roughy terrain. That was also the car they dropped into the bunker from pretty high.

-Hero 1 weighs about…4,700 pounds.

- There is also a car they can take apart (like for the overhead shot in “Baby”$ and the wrecked one from the season 1 finale.

-There are always two Babys on set in case there’s an issue with one. They travel in the big black trailer that you can see in the first few pics. The days I was there they used hero 1 and so we got to say hi to hero 2 while she was on standby.

-Baby had big speakers in the rear! But on hero 1 they are actually heat vents that help clear the rear window to shoot through.

-The person responsible for the most damage to the car is Jared. There actually not much leg room in these cars so Jared puts his feet on the dash and breaks vents. They also go through about 20 steering wheel caps a season because people, especially Jared mess with them. Jared is…not the preferred driver and has run Baby into a few fences etc. Jim Michaels dress giving him the keys according to Jeff. On the other hand Jeff said Jensen Could be a stunt driver. They also had to remove the hydraulics from the Pimpmobile cause Jared broke them.

-Production calls the continental the Pimpmobile just like us. There are now two of them and they live with the other impalas and Bobby’s Chevelle.

-The monster truck for Route 666 was custome built from a pre-existing truck in less that 4 days.

-After the EW cover shoot the hood of hero 1 had to be repainted cause they boys scratched her up!

-Baby is gonna take some damage early this season and be “broadsided” but she’ll make it through.

ADDED! The impala in the pilot was used as a police car in another show which is why it had the spot lights. Kim Manner hated how the spot lights messed up shots so he took them off at a certain point. The pilot impala is still one of the stunt cars.

 

[catrox14]

http://www.ew.com/article/2016/09/15/supernatural-mark-sheppard-misha-collins-season-12?xid=entertainment-weekly_socialflow_twitter

From the article:

I don't know how I feel about this.

Quote

“Castiel and Crowley have kind of teamed up in season 12 and are working together,” Misha Collins tells EW. And according to both Collins and Mark Sheppard, fans can expect a sort of ’70s sitcom/’80s buddy cop comedy when the duo takes on the once-favorite son of God.

[Demented Daisy]

Yeah, because teaming up with Crowley worked so well for Cas last time.

[MysteryGuest]

I guess it does sort of make sense that Cas and Crowley would team up to take down Lucifer.  They both have major axes to grind with him.  I normally enjoy the Cas/Crowley scenes, but hope they don't go overboard.  What works in the occasional 2 minute scene might get old fast if done too much.

[DittyDotDot]

2 hours ago, Demented Daisy said:

Yeah, because teaming up with Crowley worked so well for Cas last time.

That was my first thought, but I'm hoping they find a new twist on it this time. Cass isn't quite the same nube he was back in S6, so hopefully Crowley won't be able to "sell" Cass like he did in S6. Plus, I'm assuming he won't be hiding it from the boys this time, or underhandedly using them either.

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

I guess it does sort of make sense that Cas and Crowley would team up to take down Lucifer.  They both have major axes to grind with him.  I normally enjoy the Cas/Crowley scenes, but hope they don't go overboard.  What works in the occasional 2 minute scene might get old fast if done too much.

After recently watching the S8 finale, it could be they're doing it like they did with Cass and Marvatron in Sacrifice? I really liked that dynamic. Cass was looking through personal ads and asking really personal questions of the bartender, not actually understanding a thing he was doing, while Marvatron couldn't believe Cass could be so completely clueless to humanity. Despite Cass's time as a human and then his pop culture download later, he's still pretty naive when it comes to humans and Crowley understands humans like no other (that's what makes him a good salesman), so it could actually be quite compelling and funny.

But it's a fine line here, so, like you said, I too hope they tread lightly.

Edited September 16, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[Diane]

24 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

That was my first thought, but I'm hoping they find a new twist on it this time. Cass isn't quite the same nube he was back in S6, so hopefully Crowley won't be able to "sell" Cass like he did in S6. Plus, I'm assuming he won't be hiding it from the boys this time, or underhandedly using them either.

After recently watching the S8 finale, it could be they're doing it like they did with Cass and Marvatron in Sacrifice? I really liked that dynamic. Cass was looking through personal ads and asking really personal questions of the bartender, not actually understanding a thing he was doing, while Marvatron couldn't believe Cass could be so completely clueless to humanity. Despite Cass's time as a human and then his pop culture download later, he's still pretty naive when it comes to humans and Crowley understands humans like no other (that's what makes him a good salesman), so it could actually be quite compelling and funny.

But it's a fine line here, so, like you said, I too hope they tread lightly.

I am hoping for comedy gold. Please let it be played funny.  I like the light hearted stuff and I believe it could be really good, if played that way.

[Demented Daisy]

59 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

That was my first thought, but I'm hoping they find a new twist on it this time. Cass isn't quite the same nube he was back in S6, *snip*

Ah, yes, but who is more powerful this time?  Especially if Castiel's wings are still clipped.  If Crowley runs roughshod over Castiel, will Cas be able to stop him?

Full disclosure -- I'm probably annoyed with this story because it's one more reason to keep Castiel separated from Sam and Dean.  

[catrox14]

What bothers me about making this a buddy comedy is that it mitigates the truly serious aspect of Cas' characterization last season.

What is Cas hoping to accomplish? He can't defeat Lucifer because Lucifer AFAIK is still a fully power archangel. Lucifer could teleport and Cas couldn't.  Does Cas think he can actually get close enough to kill him with an angel blade? Lucifer is smarter than that.  Does he plan to capture Lucifer and put him in Heaven's jail?

Whilst I love Mark Sheppard as Crowley, I loathe Crowley. He's the POS who started the process of turning Dean into a demon.  He knew what COULD happen to Dean he just didn't have proof until it DID happen. So for me, Crowley is in the POS category forever. He will never be out of it.   I don't care if he survives anymore.

Wasn't Lucifer's goal always to subjugate humans on Earth; to make Earth his domain? He's not interested in actually running Hell on a day to day basis AFAIR, which was Crowley's interest. Now Lucifer is hiding in a rock star's meatsuit on Earth,  so how much interest does he have in ruling Hell? I'm thinking very little, so what motive does Crowley have to go after Lucifer? Does he think if he kills Lucifer that Hell's minions will be happy to have him back as the King of Hell full time? Is it solely vengeance for making him lick the floor?  I don't see how he can kill Lucifer either. The colt couldn't kill him.  The Hand of God was already depleted, which BTW I still cannot understand how Crowley could even absorb that and not be killed..but I digress. 

I don't see any reason why Cas and Crowley should be working together other than Crowley knows whose meatsuit Lucifer is wearing and takes that to Cas and proposes a deal, which if Cas accepts that deal then Cas is being foolish again. They really should be trying to kill each other at this point.

I hope this is just a setup for Team Free Will to join forces again and they kill Crowley at long last. 

[DittyDotDot]

20 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

Ah, yes, but who is more powerful this time?  Especially if Castiel's wings are still clipped.  If Crowley runs roughshod over Castiel, will Cas be able to stop him?

Full disclosure -- I'm probably annoyed with this story because it's one more reason to keep Castiel separated from Sam and Dean.  

The reasons for Cass's separation are, IMO, mostly due to fandom and I don't think that's gonna change this year. I'd like it to change, but I've already set too many expectations the show probably won't live up to, I can't set another one. So, I don't fault the storyline, I fault TPTB for not rising above all the shouting. I'm trying to look at it as an opportunity to give Cass something actually interesting--and possibly relevant--to do while he is separated. At least it's not yet another angel civil war he's getting mixed up in, again.

 As to the power thing, I'm not worried about it. Grace and wings aren't the only way to be powerful. If Cass is indeed more Cass than he's been in years, then I think they'll manage just fine together. Cass, for all his naivety of humans, is still smarter than Crowley.

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

What is Cas hoping to accomplish? He can't defeat Lucifer because Lucifer AFAIK is still a fully power archangel. Lucifer could teleport and Cas couldn't.  Does Cas think he can actually get close enough to kill him with an angel blade? Lucifer is smarter than that.  Does he plan to capture Lucifer and put him in Heaven's jail?

I'm suspecting Lucifer isn't full powered anymore. Otherwise, why is hiding out and jumping bodies? I wonder if Amara didn't do something to him when she blasted him last season?

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't see any reason why Cas and Crowley should be working together other than Crowley knows whose meatsuit Lucifer is wearing and takes that to Cas and proposes a deal, which if Cas accepts that deal then Cas is being foolish again. They really should be trying to kill each other at this point.

I actually think this could make a lot of sense. Of course the show might totally fuck it up, but Crowley needs to get rid of Lucifer, in whatever manner, to regain his control of Hell and Cass should want to get him at least back in his box to clean up his mess of letting him out. Together they might be able to accomplish that goal and figure they can go back to trying to kill each other afterwards.

[Aeryn13]

I think it`s simply done to give both the characters of Cas and Crowley something to do in one fell swoop. For Cas especially his thing this year to keep him on the show but not with the brothers. Somehow, they just can`t or won`t try that. It only ever happened when he had an organic place in the storyline for Dean in Season 4. Since then it`s "meanwhile in Cas-land".  

And they will probably wring a lot of comic relief from it, with Crowley being a very snarky character and Cas still being played mostly as earnest and overly literal. At the same time Lucifer has, by necessity been downgraded to snarky comic relief as well, one who is slightly scary when the writers want it. Which is exactly what Crowley has beome for years. So in effect, you have Crowley against Crowley. Throwing Cas into the mix adds a little a different flavour to one side. Will a lot of it be cringeworthy and unfunny? Likely. This show misses a lot more than it hits with comedy.  

Though, to be honest, their adventures at least sound like the characters have some purpose. It is more than I can say for the Winchesters right now. Would be bearable if the standalone quality was back to Season 1-2-ish levels.

[DittyDotDot]

48 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Wasn't Lucifer's goal always to subjugate humans on Earth; to make Earth his domain? He's not interested in actually running Hell on a day to day basis AFAIR, which was Crowley's interest. Now Lucifer is hiding in a rock star's meatsuit on Earth,  so how much interest does he have in ruling Hell? I'm thinking very little, so what motive does Crowley have to go after Lucifer? Does he think if he kills Lucifer that Hell's minions will be happy to have him back as the King of Hell full time? Is it solely vengeance for making him lick the floor?

Well, vengeance and he needs to do something big to regain control over his minions. He was brought low by Lucifer, Crowley now needs to show them he's worthy of their fear. I suspect Hell isn't being ruled at all right now.

[MysteryGuest]

I think revenge is all the motivation Crowley needs to go after Lucifer.  That, and potentially getting him back in the cage where he belongs so he can't cause anymore trouble.  

I'm not getting the sense that Cas will be separate from the boys this season.  I'm sure he won't be with them constantly, but he does seem to be around at least at the beginning to help with saving Sam, dealing with Mary, etc.  I think the goal is to just give him more to do, period.  His character has been almost irrelevant lately, and it's been sort of boring.  If they intend to keep these characters around till the end of the show, they do need to give them something interesting to do, IMO.

[SueB]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

The reasons for Cass's separation are, IMO, mostly due to fandom and I don't think that's gonna change this year. I'd like it to change, but I've already set too many expectations the show probably won't live up to, I can't set another one. So, I don't fault the storyline, I fault TPTB for not rising above all the shouting. 

I blame the shouters.  I realize that'll piss people off but I think the show has made it abundantly clear that it's a brotherly relationship they intend to have for Dean and Cas and a very loud group of fans are still making every look a romantic moment. I have zero problem with the interpretation. I have problems with the continued cry of queer baiting.  I totally agree they DID queer bait for years but they stopped most of that after S8 IMO. And now they've changed the story to avoid the appearance of queer baiting.  I do agree they occasionally have scenes that imply a future they have said doesn't exist (specifically the Dean-phone in Cas' heart from the end of last year).  But by and large they keep Cas AWAY from Sam and Dean and it's to avoid bitter complaining from fans.  Well, I'm bitter they keep Cas away from the boys.  

In short - after Fan Fiction and Alpha and Omega I think the show has made overt 'Dean and Cas are like brothers' declarations to overcome the shouting.  Those shouting are just not interested in listening.

Now let me also add, the Cas/Crowley team-up also helps with a break for a Jensen around Nov/Dec.  That makes sense to me and I'm okay with it. 

Edited September 16, 2016 by SueB

[DittyDotDot]

38 minutes ago, SueB said:

Well, I'm bitter they keep Cas away from the boys.  

Yeah, I'm bitter about it too, but baby steps, right. First give Cass a relevant storyline and then maybe it will lead back to bringing Cass back into the fold. I do find it ironic that the shouters have only serviced to force the show to make a hard line here and send Cass to storyline Siberia. 

38 minutes ago, SueB said:

I have problems with the continued cry of queer baiting.  I totally agree they DID queer bait for years but they stopped most of that after S8 IMO. And now they've changed the story to avoid the appearance of queer baiting.  I do agree they occasionally have scenes that imply as future they have said doesn't exist (specifically the Dean-phone in Cas' heart from the end of last year).

IMO, the show has never queer baited, but personally, I find the overreaction to the shouting in S8 to be almost worse than queer baiting. I think it was smarter of the show to just allow everyone to have their own interpretation of it and not engage in the discussion at all. With their isolating Cass it seems to send the message there can be no other interpretation anymore, which just makes the shouters shout louder.

You can't talk to a shouting crowd, they can't hear you unless you shout too, which just means everyone is shouting. IMO, it's best to just carry on and let them shout themselves out. 

Edited September 16, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[Bessie]

I think there is an element of "shouty" fans playing into this development, but I dont think it's solely responsible.  I don't believe the show ever intended to drop its original premise of two brothers battling the Supernatural regardless of the fans. Sure, they'll bring in other characters, but no one was going to be in the backseat of the impala or living in the bunker on a permanent basis. The other variable is that J2 need time off, so having a couple of recurring characters with their own (or related) storylines made sense. 

The problem, as Aeryn13 notes, is that the writers have trouble integrating these characters organically into the main storyline. My belief is that they brought lucifer back and are keeping him alive to give Crowley and Castiel something to do. I think both of them are stale characters with little reason, story wise, to still be on the show. My wish is for both of them to have reduced roles (cause I do like them) and for the show to bring in new recurring characters who can be integrated more organically into the main story.

Although, Cas and Crowley road tripping together has tons of comedic potential! It's entirely possible that I'll end up loving them as a duo.  I'm just so relieved that the angel politics angle seems to be over.

Edited September 16, 2016 by Bessie

[catrox14]

I don't think the show keeps Dean and Cas away from each other because of Destiel shippers. Obviously  TPTB are aware of ALL the shipping in the fandom, from Destiel shippers to Wincesters considering the direct mentions of both in Fan Fiction. I don't blame the shouters or the quiet shippers. I don't like the charges of queerbaiting but I'm not in the demographic that can speak to whether they are or not. The show just needs to write what it wants to write regardless and they generally do. I mean look at Demon!Dean. I highly doubt most viewers wanted that to happen, but it happened anyway. I liked it in the end but I never wanted it.

Being actual brothers doesn't stop the Wincesters. Cas being declared a brother by Dean, kind of doesn't matter because he's not family by blood so if TPTB want to go with Destiel they can, but I don't think TPTB will ever go there.  I think Dean's declaration was intended to say that Dean loves Cas like family (and family can mean many things). So for me Cas being brotherzoned can always be changed IF the show wanted to do that and I don't think they do. 

I think Cas being away from Dean and Sam has more to do with them nerfing a powerful being so he's not their Cas ex machina which he still can be to a degree minus teleporting.

Edited September 16, 2016 by catrox14

[goldy]

Any crazy meta episodes planned for season 12 of Supernatural? — Tammy

If you’re hoping for the next “Fan Fiction” or “Baby,” you might have to wait a bit. But this is Supernatural, so there’s always a few creative ideas on the table. “You never want to do something conceptual that you’re not going to knock out of the park,” showrunner Andrew Dabb says. “That being said, we have some things that are totally different. We’re working on [an episode] right now that is a little Reservoir Dogs-y. [It’s a] non-linear, interesting approach to a story we’ve never done before.”

 

http://www.ew.com/article/2016/09/16/spoiler-room-once-upon-time-greys-anatomy

[DittyDotDot]

33 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't think the show keeps Dean and Cas away from each other because of Destiel shippers. Obviously  TPTB are aware of ALL the shipping in the fandom, from Destiel shippers to Wincesters considering the direct mentions of both in Fan Fiction. I don't blame the shouters or the quiet shippers.

Just to be clear, I don't blame shippers, I have no problem with shipping as long as the shippers understand the show isn't obligated to fulfill their ship. I blame those people who were bullying the writers back in S8. Not all of them were shippers, by the way. Some people just aren't Cass fans. Which again is totally cool as long as they don't think the show has any obligation to get rid of Cass.

It all started with some Destiel folks asking the writers to write a Destiel story that turned into demands and bullying of the writers. And then the Castiel haters started bullying the writers to kill off Cass. And to add on top, Jensen and Misha were constantly being asked, and giving the same answer, over and over again about Destiel and when the show was going to make it canon and such. It wasn't too long after the kerfuffle Cass seemed to be shipped off on his own, and I think it's mostly due to the show overreacting to the kerfuffle, myself. 

Sure, Misha is only a regular, so he's not going to be in every episode, but that didn't isolate him in the past. And yes, Castiel is an powerful being, but that's never stopped them from depowering him by whatever means in the past. So, yeah, it's not the only reason, but I think it's a big reason of many reasons Cass has been isolated since mid-S8.

However, I do have hope the tide is changing on this by the way they handled Cass at the end of S11. I don't expect him to fully be back in the fold right away, but I do think he's going to be more relevant to the main storyline. Or that's how it appears to me right now.

[catrox14]

More BTS from fan set visits.  Holy cats. Jensen threaded that gap with that big-ass car. Damn. This is my happy place. Watching Jensen drive Baby like a boss

Edited September 16, 2016 by catrox14

[catrox14]

Edited September 16, 2016 by catrox14

[catrox14]

[catrox14]

[AwesomO4000]

9 hours ago, Demented Daisy said:

Yeah, because teaming up with Crowley worked so well for Cas last time.

Hee. Though actually one could argue in a way that it did work out fairly well for Castiel. Sure he maybe shouldn't have listened to Crowley in the first place - though Cas was sort of in a Sam in season 4 tough spot in that almost all of his options sucked - but as for the "partnership," Castiel pretty much got what he wanted. He got the soul power he needed to fight Raphael and gather a following,* he got all of the purgatory souls by pulling one over on Crowley, and then Crowley brought Raphael to him, so that Castiel was able to finish him off. Where Castiel screwed up was in not listening to Dean early enough and getting on a power trip. Had he not done that, and returned the souls to purgatory right away as Dean had suggested, Castiel's team up with Crowley might actually have worked out very well for Castiel.** Not so much for Crowley though - if anyone should be holding a grudge on their partnership, it should likely be Crowley, who got swindled, then insulted, then tricked, and finally humiliated by Castiel. I'm not saying Crowley didn't deserve it, but by his counts, he got the worst end of that partnership with Cas.

* Castiel never really had to pay back that soul debt either, since he didn't follow through with his plan to return those 50,000 borrowed souls.

** Even if the leviathans had held on, Castiel would've been potentially less weakened, and there would've been way more angels in heaven to potentially help him fight the leviathans.

[SueB]

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Just to be clear, I don't blame shippers, I have no problem with shipping as long as the shippers understand the show isn't obligated to fulfill their ship. I blame those people who were bullying the writers back in S8. Not all of them were shippers, by the way. Some people just aren't Cass fans. Which again is totally cool as long as they don't think the show has any obligation to get rid of Cass.

It all started with some Destiel folks asking the writers to write a Destiel story that turned into demands and bullying of the writers. And then the Castiel haters started bullying the writers to kill off Cass. And to add on top, Jensen and Misha were constantly being asked, and giving the same answer, over and over again about Destiel and when the show was going to make it canon and such. It wasn't too long after the kerfuffle Cass seemed to be shipped off on his own, and I think it's mostly due to the show overreacting to the kerfuffle, myself. 

Sure, Misha is only a regular, so he's not going to be in every episode, but that didn't isolate him in the past. And yes, Castiel is an powerful being, but that's never stopped them from depowering him by whatever means in the past. So, yeah, it's not the only reason, but I think it's a big reason of many reasons Cass has been isolated since mid-S8.

However, I do have hope the tide is changing on this by the way they handled Cass at the end of S11. I don't expect him to fully be back in the fold right away, but I do think he's going to be more relevant to the main storyline. Or that's how it appears to me right now.

I do.  Shippers, anti-shippers, and anti-anything's.  I have zero problem with complaining about the show and how you don't like plot X or character Y. But there are some people in fandom that IMO cross the line and seem to think their POV is the only valid answer.  IMO the writers have separated Dean and Cas because of the fear of misaligned expectations. And a good character's plot suffers for it. 

[DittyDotDot]

4 hours ago, SueB said:

I do.  Shippers, anti-shippers, and anti-anything's.  I have zero problem with complaining about the show and how you don't like plot X or character Y. But there are some people in fandom that IMO cross the line and seem to think their POV is the only valid answer.  IMO the writers have separated Dean and Cas because of the fear of misaligned expectations. And a good character's plot suffers for it. 

Wait, are you saying that all shippers are bad? Because that's not at all what I was getting at. I only think shipping is bad when they cross that line, but I think, by and large, most shippers are well-behaved individuals who love the show just like I do. I was only referring to a small group of fandom who did cross that line, but not all of them were shippers. And not all shippers did cross that line. 

If a good character's storyline is suffering, for any reason, that's ultimately on the show, IMO. I do blame a small group of fans for making the rest of us fans look bad by bullying the writers, producers and actors, but I blame the show for making a bigger mess out of it by responding to those bullies. IMO, the only obligation the show has to me is to tell the best story they can and if they're not doing that, then that's on them, IMO.