Spoilers With Speculation

[SueB]

So NOT what I was expecting.  And Robbie is writing.  I'm intrigued.  

[Wynne88]

So apparently Sam doesn't hang out in the cage for more than one episode.

[catrox14]

So apparently Sam doesn't hang out in the cage for more than one episode.

 

I am really starting to lean towards us seeing Lucifer!Sam again.

 

My latest wild spec:

Maybe the light we see when Lucifer touches Sam's forehead is Lucifer possessing Sam again for reasons and that he just lurks and Sam goes along with so Dean and Sam are hunting but little things start to tip off Dean that something is wrong with Sam again.  I don't know why Sam would go along with it other than if he thinks it's the only way to get rid of the Darkness.

 

It seems bit of a waste of bringing up Lucifer and the Cage again and wrap it up in one episode other than Pellegrino availability reasons. That said, maybe it does wrap in an episode and that's why Jared was surprised they went there now instead of at the end of the season. 

Peculiar. 

[auntvi]

OK, been lurking for a while, but I finally joined to respond to catrox14's wild spec. I watched Swan Song this afternoon just to see if there was a bright light when Lucifer possessed Sam. Sure enough, it looks like Lucifer may have possessed Sam -- again.

I don't like this at all! No, no, no! Maybe Rowena has magic that's Sam-friendly. hope you're right that Lucifer just lurks. I really, really hope this doesn't provide Dean with another opportunity to beat on Sam for his [supposed] mistakes.

Edited January 9, 2016 by auntvi

[catrox14]

 

I really, really hope this doesn't provide Dean with another opportunity to beat on Sam for his [supposed] mistakes.

 

I think by both Dean and Sam are mostly past beating on each other for past mistakes. I'm not going to get into Dean words to Sam about Charlie because Dean's behavior was influenced by the Mark.  Dean did tell Sam he told him to stop (re removing the Mark) in 11.01 but that was it. He didn't really chew him out about or mention it again since AFAIR

 

That said, IMO if Dean does get angry with Sam, I think it will come from a place of absolute fear for Sam's welfare. I think Dean's worst nightmare is Sam ever getting near Lucifer again. That's why he was saying "If Lucifer touches you again that's the last thing you'll ever think about"I know I've yelled at people I love for doing something that was dangerous to themselves and that scared me not as an "I told you so" and I think that could be the case here, if he does get upset with him.

 

I think Dean is going to get an earful from Cas about Amara.

Edited January 9, 2016 by catrox14

[Demented Daisy]

Bobby's back -- with company

Rufus!  Yay!

 

 

“[Dean and Sam] are going to be investigating an old case that was once investigated by Bobby and Rufus,” in what would have been Season 5, executive producer Jeremy Carver tells TVLine.

 

 

That's oddly worded....

Edited January 11, 2016 by Demented Daisy

[DittyDotDot]

GRUMPY OLD HUNTERS!!!

 

Okay, seriously, I'm taking credit for a couple episodes this season--just the ideas, not how they turned out. For years I've been saying they should do an episode from Baby's POV--we've already seen that.

 

And then there's the other idea I was throwing around heavily a couple years ago of a musical-type episode with a monster--I was suggesting a banshee could work--who plays (or sings) the soon-to-be-dead's personal playlist somehow--perhaps Into the Mystic?

 

And now my most pitched idea, Grumpy Old Hunters...

 

Yeah, I know, it's not just me, but I'm taking credit anyway, so sue me! ;)

[catrox14]

Sigh.....I love the idea of seeing Rufus again but I am tired of Bobby. Go ahead and throw tomatoes at me. I feel like every time they bring Bobby back it destroys Dean just a little bit more. Shoot, the last two times Bobby was on the show Dean never even knew about it. But we saw him fight with Bobby in Sam's comascape over Sam's life  and then when Sam used Bobby to break Metatron out of Heaven Jail.. I wonder if the episode will address either of those things. Because Dean really deserves to what happened re the latter. He's never been told that right? 

Edited January 11, 2016 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Dean knows about it since he was aware of Cass tooling around the countryside with Marvatron and then Marvatron's escape. Plus, wasn't there a scene at the end of that episode where both Sam and Dean came clean about each of their little adventures? Or was that at the beginning of the next one? Honestly, I don't remember it too clearly right now.

 

On another note, Bobby was in a wheel chair in S5, wonder if the show will remember this?

[catrox14]

He knew about Marv being out of heaven jail, but I'll bet an internet dollar that Dean doesn't know about Bobby's involvement. I think it would be a pretty big deal for Dean to learn that his second father is now in Heaven Jail. I think it's possible Cas didn't tell him to protect Sam because I think he would know that Dean would be massively not okay with it considering he had told them to stop the activity.

 

Unless it was in that scene that was supposedly was filmed but not aired that took place between Dean and Cas in Our Little World.

[MysteryGuest]

Been lurking for a while, but I thought I would dip my toe in the water.  I don't think Dean was ever told that Sam and Cas used Bobby to help with their kidnapping plan for Metatron.   I'm pretty sure he would not have have been happy about it.  I don't think Sam came clean about much of what he was doing at that time until Charlie's crisis sort of forced his hand.

 

Seeing Bobby and Rufus again will be fun, but with as often as Bobby has been back (as a dead guy), why didn't they just let him live? I always figured they killed people off to stay within budget, but that's obviously not the case with Bobby.

[DittyDotDot]

I bet they originally killed Bobby because it fit into the story they were trying to tell in S7--stripping everything away from Sam and Dean--plus, I also think they thought S7 would be the last season at the time they killed Bobby.  But then they did get renewed for S8, in the end, and the deed was already done.

 

I can't think any of the deaths on Supernatural that were probably budget-related. Most of the time it's been due to the story they were trying to tell (Jo and Ellen) or the actor not being available any longer (Gordon)--which was not the case with Jim Beaver, as far as I know.

[catrox14]

Ruby 1.0 recasting was because of budgets.  They weren't willing to pay what KC was asking IIRC.  Actors do get raises over time especially Jared, Jensen, Misha and Mark so I think that is where the budgets become a factor in casting guest actors. 

[Demented Daisy]

According to my (highly unscientific) analysis, Buckner and Leming should write the Bobby/Rufus episode.  Thoughts?

[Omegamom]

Demented -- You're thinking it's a mytharc episode?

[SueB]

Pictures for the next ep.  REALLY spoilery!

http://www.thetvaddict.com/2016/01/11/supernatural-photos-s11e10-the-devil-in-the-details/

 

Looks FAN-F*CKING TASTING.

If you want to be remotely surprised stop reading now because Imma gonna hoot and hollar about them.

 

ETA:

1) Crowley puts a leash on Rowena. Hee.

2) Sam and Dean and Cas and Lucifer in the CAGE.  *runs around fangirl flailing for a while*

3) Lucifer is being not nice to Dean - kick 'em in the nuts Dean!

4) Lucifer being not nice to Cas - kick 'em in the nuts Dean! (sorry, I just needed to give a shout-out to my Destiel-oriented friends)

5) Did I mention I need to flail around a bit on this one?

 

I don't know if there is a "deal" or not, but it seems clear to me, Dean and Cas go rushing in and are at least witting of whatever happens.  Maybe they end up forcing Sam's hand to capitulate (because they are Sam's weakness) or maybe they help with the jailbreak.  Crowley CLEARLY helped or they wouldn't have made it to the Cage. Regardless, I can't wait to hear the dialog.

Edited January 12, 2016 by SueB

[catrox14]

I can see it being mytharc if they do a time travel thing. Like maybe Sam and Dean meet up with Rufus and Bobby in S5. Also Bobby got out of the wheelchair when he made the deal with Crowley, so he doesn't necessarily have to be in the wheelchair.

 

Maybe 'what would have been s5" means that maybe whatever happens with Sam and Lucifer NOW mucks up history and it actually resets back to s5.

 

Just a WAG

[AwesomO4000]

He knew about Marv being out of heaven jail, but I'll bet an internet dollar that Dean doesn't know about Bobby's involvement. I think it would be a pretty big deal for Dean to learn that his second father is now in Heaven Jail.

 

I don't think Sam knows that Bobby is in heaven's jail either. Even though Bobby had a pretty good idea that was what was going to happen, Bobby's note to Sam was rather vague and didn't really say anything in that regard. Considering Sam probably thought Bobby got through his misadventures because he wrote the note - and I don't remember if Castiel told Sam what happened (and I don't think he did) - Sam is probably under the impression that Bobby is okay.

[Demented Daisy]

Demented -- You're thinking it's a mytharc episode?

 

I am.  I'm still waiting for someone to mention the archangels' involvement in locking away the Darkness the first time.  Might be cool to go back in time to talk to some of those archangels when they were still "living"....

 

 

Pictures for the next ep.  REALLY spoilery!

http://www.thetvaddict.com/2016/01/11/supernatural-photos-s11e10-the-devil-in-the-details/

 

Looks FAN-F*CKING TASTING.

If you want to be remotely surprised stop reading now because Imma gonna hoot and hollar about them.

 

ETA:

1) Crowley puts a leash on Rowena. Hee.

 

Honestly, I could have done without that.  Chains, shackles, cuffs, sure.  But a leash?  Reminds me of the Episode that Shall Not Be Named.  Yuck.

[catrox14]

 

Honestly, I could have done without that.  Chains, shackles, cuffs, sure.  But a leash?  Reminds me of the Episode that Shall Not Be Named.  Yuck.

 

I hate Rowena ( I mean I like Ruth's portrayal) but fuck that. I'm really bothered by that visual. It's gross and wrong.  Maybe they are going for us having sympathy for Rowena and looking at Crowley as a real POS but they are both POS. It's ...awful

[catrox14]

I don't think Sam knows that Bobby is in heaven's jail either. Even though Bobby had a pretty good idea that was what was going to happen, Bobby's note to Sam was rather vague and didn't really say anything in that regard. Considering Sam probably thought Bobby got through his misadventures because he wrote the note - and I don't remember if Castiel told Sam what happened (and I don't think he did) - Sam is probably under the impression that Bobby is okay.

 

I had a different impression. I have to go back and look but I seem to have a vague recollection of someone having a conversation that whatever happened to Bobby it wasn't good. I can't remember who it involved but I don't think it was Dean. I feel like it was Cas and someone else but not Dean.   But I'll have to dig around. And...

 

(not related to the Bobby thing) but in the first efforts of my digging around....I ran across this dialogue that I don't know why I didn't pick up on this during my multiple viewings of Form and Void. I know I've been beating that dead horse about all of this not being what we think it is. 

 

 

DEAN: Really? Father Crowley? Really?

CROWLEY: I'm sorry, aging, pathetic, has-been rock star. Did I offend your delicate sensibilities? Where have you been? Your brother and that idiot angel, do you know what they've been doing?

DEAN: I've heard.

CROWLEY: Everything?

DEAN: Enough. What are you doing here?

CROWLEY: Same as you -- I'm working the case.

 

 

Okay so what the heck is Crowley talking about. He knew that the Mark had been removed because he was there when it happened. And he knew that Cas was an attack dog. He knew the Darkness had been released and there is was trouble in Hell because his minions told him.  So why is he asking the question as though Sam and Cas are STILL doing something? Is it just to mess with Dean?

[companionenvy]

My wildly unfounded spec: The Bobby and Rufus flashback episode is mainly being used as a cover to bring back Bobby for a longer arc -- one that possibly involves other recently deceased characters -- without tipping off the fans. Even with all the glaring continuity errors and assaults on narrative logic, I don't believe this show is going to leave Bobby Singer trapped in heaven's jail, and we're long overdue for a closer look at heaven and how it is run. Granted, they've brought Bobby back before, but if they have bigger plans for him, they might use a little more discretion this time around. 

 

Those pictures make me nervous for Cas. I wouldn't be shocked if we were heading for a repeat of the end of season 7, when Cas took on Sam's Lucifer visions. I'm judging partially based on the pictures, and partially based on my sense that the writers have no idea what to do with Cas, and might well be happy to seal him off in the cage for a good few episodes. 

 

Then again, I have a terrible track-record on predictions. 

[mertensia]

Let's hope Lucifer learns the hard way that messing with Sam is a bad idea. Because really.

[smree]

I hate Rowena ( I mean I like Ruth's portrayal) but fuck that. I'm really bothered by that visual. It's gross and wrong.  Maybe they are going for us having sympathy for Rowena and looking at Crowley as a real POS but they are both POS. It's ...awful

 

Yep I was really excited when I saw those pics and then came to the one with Rowena and now I'm dreading that scene and the dialogue that I can only imagine it might contain. They could easily have had the cuffs around her wrists but the visual of a female cuffed around the neck and on a leash with 2 males is just ughhhhh

[Demented Daisy]

Casting spoiler for the wrestling episode -- uh, who?  I don't watch wrestling, so I have no idea if this is big.

 

In the hour, former Real World housemate Mizanin will play Shawn Harley, a young, upstart professional wrestler with a temper to match his talent. Harley wants to rise in the ranks, and will do so by any means necessary.

 

 

Ugh.  Does he make a deal?  If so, how very original.

 

ETA  Okay, that was weird.  My first "double" post.

Edited January 12, 2016 by Demented Daisy

[SueB]

 

 

SUPERNATURAL

Executive producer Jeremy Carver promises "some fairly shocking turns right from the jump" when the series returns. While Sam seriously ponders Lucifer's offer to be his vessel, Dean will struggle with the question of whether he has "the strength to admit to himself the hold that [Amara] has on him and admit this to others," Carver previews. "Him doing that is going to lead to some pretty interesting results." Castiel, who seems to have fallen into a showhole, will return "in new and unexpected ways," and his quest to repair his mojo will lead to "startling consequences" for all. As for that other MIA figure, "the idea of God and, 'Where is God? Will God show himself?'...will be heavily debated," Carver shares. Also on tap: Bobby/Rufus flashbacks, a case within the world of professional wrestling and the show's version of Das Boot.

from TVLine: http://tvline.com/gallery/tv-spoilers-2016-season-premieres-photos/#!19/winter-preview-supernatural/

[SueB]

Thoughts:

- Sam seriously ponders Lucifer's offer: he's not going to fold due to torture, there's some logic Luci offers.I'll be interested in seeing what it is.

- Dean struggles with "the strength to admit to himself the hold that Amara has on him and admit this to others" ... well I hope we hear SOMETHING and not just nonverbals. However the next sentence: "Him doing that is going to lead to some pretty interesting results."... could go either way but it makes me more pessimistic about him coming clean. If he DOES keep quiet, Crowley may be my only hope that it comes out.  Crowley has already clued in something is rotten in the state of Denmark.  I don't think he'll leave it alone.  I'm hoping Dean acknowledges the issue on his own.

- Cas "will return in new and unexpected ways"... okay... I didn't REALIZE he was on a quest to "repair his mojo" but that works for me. OTOH "startling consequences for all" causes me to be VERY CONCERNED.  I don't want Cas making ANYMORE MISTAKES.  Or being duped or anything.  Cas need a freakin' break.

- debating where is God ... well that fits in with my theory that God is intentionally NOT around (yet).  Seems to me they are setting him up for showing up eventually.  If they weren't, why talk a length about it?

[catrox14]

 Castiel:

 

I didn't know he lost his mojo like at all. He got his grace back and Rowena took off the attack dog spell and he had more than enough strength rattle the brain digging machine off his head and kill 2 angels, along with beathing the shit out of Metatron. So at what point did/does Cas lose his mojo ...again. I don't get it. 

 

Just more keep to Cas and the boys apart apparently.

 

I think the scene in the promo pics with Dean getting up Sam's grill could  be another Halluciferation. Dean has that menacing look that reminded me of Hunger Games when he was in Metadouche's face and I don't see much reason for regular Dean to get in Sam's face like that, UNLESS Sam has already agreed to be Lucifer's vessel and it's Dean getting in Lucifer!Sam's face.

[Demented Daisy]

the show's version of Das Boot.

 

 

*ahem*  Called it.  ;-)

 

As for the rest of it....  Carver's "fairly shocking turns" rarely lead to anything good.  Why should this season be any different?

 

 

 

- debating where is God ... well that fits in with my theory that God is intentionally NOT around (yet).  Seems to me they are setting him up for showing up eventually.  If they weren't, why talk a length about it?

 

 

Agreed.  All this foreplay better lead to some sort of climax.

[Aeryn13]

 

While Sam seriously ponders Lucifer's offer to be his vessel, 

 

Seriously? Because Lucifer really has so much to offer. 

 

 

Dean will struggle with the question of whether he has "the strength to admit to himself the hold that [Amara] has on him and admit this to others,"

 

I don`t care for how he phrased that. Like Dean finds out what a weak person he truly is. I get it Carver, in your universe, Dean hardly possesses any inner strength. Jensen already spoiled that the Amara-secret wasn`t out by ep 10 so bleh.

 

Das Boot? I hardly think these writers watched it. 

 

The Rufus/Bobby episode sounds the least potentially offensive of them all right now. At first I groaned upon reading Bobby will be brought back but reading it, I`m imagining a flashback format like in that episode with Henry Winchester and pre-Abaddon. Like, the brothers will investigate a case that will harken back to a case Bobby and Rufus investigated during the Season 5 timeline.

 

And you will see stuff like walking through a house, then flashing back to 6 or so years ago where Bobby and Rufus do the same. The characters will never interact, J2 will have lots of shooting days off and the brothers may or may not even learn the tie-in to the past the audience is seeing.

[AwesomO4000]

Thoughts:

- Sam seriously ponders Lucifer's offer: he's not going to fold due to torture, there's some logic Luci offers.I'll be interested in seeing what it is.

- Dean struggles with "the strength to admit to himself the hold that Amara has on him and admit this to others" ... well I hope we hear SOMETHING and not just nonverbals. However the next sentence: "Him doing that is going to lead to some pretty interesting results."... could go either way but it makes me more pessimistic about him coming clean. If he DOES keep quiet, Crowley may be my only hope that it comes out.  Crowley has already clued in something is rotten in the state of Denmark.  I don't think he'll leave it alone.  I'm hoping Dean acknowledges the issue on his own.

- Cas "will return in new and unexpected ways"... okay... I didn't REALIZE he was on a quest to "repair his mojo" but that works for me. OTOH "startling consequences for all" causes me to be VERY CONCERNED.  I don't want Cas making ANYMORE MISTAKES.  Or being duped or anything.  Cas need a freakin' break.

- debating where is God ... well that fits in with my theory that God is intentionally NOT around (yet).  Seems to me they are setting him up for showing up eventually.  If they weren't, why talk a length about it?

 

Sam: He's generally been skeptical of Lucifer's "logic" in the past. I hope that Caver doesn't throw all of that canon out the window (yeah, right) and have Sam easily duped. I'll be sending mental disgruntlement Carver's way if so.

Dean: Those "pretty interesting results" better be something actually interesting like, Amara gets pissed at Dean and all bets are off, or Amara doubles down on trying to persuade Dean. The "interesting results" better not be that Sam and/or Castiel get pissed off at Dean angst, angst, etc. only to later learn some "very special lesson" about not doubting Dean a la season 9, because I would not call that "interesting" at all... also more more mental disgruntlement sent Carver's way.

Cas: In addition to not wanting Cas to be duped either, I also don't want Cas to have to, say, offer to be Lucifer's vessel to save Sam.* Lucifer may offer to fix cas' mojo, but we all know that will be a lie and/or misrepresentation. Just no to either of those things for Cas. One because it would be crappy for Cas' character, the other because it would be further Sam character assassination.

 

* I can only begin to tell you how tired I am of Carver making Sam be a damsel in distress for every other character in the show, including a bunch of the recurring guest characters like Henry, Jodi, Claire, Benny, Charlie, I think Donna and Kate (the werewolf) maybe even Garth and/or his werewolf wife.  Quit it Carver. Pretty please?

 

 

 Castiel:

 

I didn't know he lost his mojo like at all. He got his grace back and Rowena took off the attack dog spell and he had more than enough strength rattle the brain digging machine off his head and kill 2 angels, along with beathing the shit out of Metatron. So at what point did/does Cas lose his mojo ...again. I don't get it.

 

I got season 10 for Christmas and was recently watching "Reichenbach" and "Soul Survivor" and somewhere in there (I don't remember which ep, because I generally combine the two in my head) I remember Metatron telling Hanna and Castiel that there wasn't a lot of Cas' mojo left but that it was "enough." Enough for what I'm not sure - to survive? To heal eventually? It could be that Castiel has been testing his limited grace he has left without it having time to replenish recently and he starts feeling the effects of that... maybe even the angel attack on Amara has some bad repercussions for all angels and their grace? The first would be keeping with canon potentially if they wanted to expand it, and the second could just be because they said so since they make the "rules" for Amara such as they are, no canon needed per se and no previous signs from Castiel needed, because the attack just happened.

 

*ahem*  Called it.  ;-)

 

I'd like to give you credit where credit is due, Demented Daisy, but I don't remember that particular speculation. Good call if so, because I can't think of much of a scenario where the Winchesters would be underwater or in any type of situation which would mimic Das Boot, so I'm not quite sure how this would come about. (The Angel version involved Nazis, vampires, Nazi vampires, and a weirdly very dark-haired Spike who the Nazi's stupidly thought they would get to work for them if I remember correctly. I'm not sure who was stupider: Spike for falling for the Nazi's trick to get him caught in the first place (though careful thy name is not Spike, so...) or the Nazis for thinking they'd be able to get Spike to do anything at all. I'm guessing the latter, because yeah, only Dru or Buffy could ever get Spike to do anything on a good day.

 

Also as another aside, that movie was disturbingly claustrophobic in a way that, for me, only a submarine surrounded by tons and tons of water pressing in around you could be. I'm not sure how any other situation could be like that.

[DittyDotDot]

I'd like to give you credit where credit is due, Demented Daisy, but I don't remember that particular speculation. Good call if so, because I can't think of much of a scenario where the Winchesters would be underwater or in any type of situation which would mimic Das Boot, so I'm not quite sure how this would come about. (The Angel version involved Nazis, vampires, Nazi vampires, and a weirdly very dark-haired Spike who the Nazi's stupidly thought they would get to work for them if I remember correctly. I'm not sure who was stupider: Spike for falling for the Nazi's trick to get him caught in the first place (though careful thy name is not Spike, so...) or the Nazis for thinking they'd be able to get Spike to do anything at all. I'm guessing the latter, because yeah, only Dru or Buffy could ever get Spike to do anything on a good day.

 

I think the demented one was referring to how she called that picture, that was posted a while back, a submarine.

[AwesomO4000]

I think the demented one was referring to how she called that picture, that was posted a while back, a submarine.

 

Oh yes, I do remember that now. I think my brain just couldn't wrap around Winchesters + submarine - the guy's definition of a "beach" seems to  be a lakefront - and so I didn't store that bit of information in my long term memory.

[SueB]

Cas' mojo: Perhaps Carver is talking more metaphorically than actual power. Metatron accused Cas of playing Cain (da da daaaaaaa .... That's me singing the Kung Fu song....go on...join me... You know the tune...) and wandering around looking for redemption. Then Cas, after the tomato purée attack spell and angel torture, was going thru some serious PTSD. He managed to get the Tablet from. Metatron but he's still struggling. And in fact, Cas has been struggling since the Apocalypse ended. He went thru the morass that was Godstiel. Went on a mental trip post transferring the pain from Sam. Spent some time in Purgatory, doing some Penance. Was mind-controlled by Naomi.Tricked by Metatron duped into helping to let the Angels fall. Lived with stolen grace for a couple of years. Yeah.... Cas has been thru the meat grinder. It would be great if he was able to get some peace with where he is at and also feel like he has a purpose in the universe.

But... I'm nervous.

Edited January 12, 2016 by SueB

[catrox14]

 

Enough for what I'm not sure - to survive? To heal eventually? It could be that Castiel has been testing his limited grace he has left without it having time to replenish recently and he starts feeling the effects of that... maybe even the angel attack on Amara has some bad repercussions for all angels and their grace? The first would be keeping with canon potentially if they wanted to expand it, and the second could just be because they said so since they make the "rules" for Amara such as they are, no canon needed per se and no previous signs from Castiel needed, because the attack just happened.

 

 

I guess it's all in the definition of "mojo".  Cas got his all of his own grace back in Book of the Damned, didn't he? Which is why I still don't understand how he fell victim to a Rowena spell at all. He's an angel, not a human so how the hell can a human witch beat an angel via a spell? The only thing I can think is that it's because of Cas was human a little while that made him susceptible. 

 

I can buy that Rowena's spell might still be affecting him. If Amara harmed Castiel in her smiting of the angels or whatever she did then I wonder if she is the one that carved "I am coming' on Cas' chest (which I'm sorry but the Destiel slash fic writers are going to have a hey day with that LOL, I know I would!)

 

Another note: I checked the writer for Devil in the Details and I find it shocking that it wasn't Buck-Lemming, it's Andrew Dabb which makes me wonder if Buck-Lemming had a bigger hand in the script because that Rowena with a collar and leash is right in their gross wheelhouse.  If not, WTF Andrew Dabb....?

[AwesomO4000]

I guess it's all in the definition of "mojo".  Cas got his all of his own grace back in Book of the Damned, didn't he? Which is why I still don't understand how he fell victim to a Rowena spell at all. He's an angel, not a human so how the hell can a human witch beat an angel via a spell? The only thing I can think is that it's because of Cas was human a little while that made him susceptible.

 

I don't think Castiel did, actually. Metatron used some of Cas' grace for the spell, and the grace was the "mojo" Metatron was referring to in "Reichenbach" / "Soul Survivor." He also said that it was Cas' grace and that some was left - "not a lot, but enough" which lead me to believe that it wasn't all of Cas' grace, but enough to get him by since it wouldn't be "borrowed" grace, but actually his own, and so therefore less subject to fizzling out - which seems to be the canon that was set up: i.e. that an angel's own grace is stable, but grace borrowed from another angel is not.

 

But just because Cas' grace is stable now, doesn't mean that it's necessarily whole or even his usual strength... which might explain how Rowena was able to affect him. My interpretation is that Cas wasn't/isn't at full strength, because he didn't get back all of his grace, but only "enough" to do the job for him. Or at least that was what I got out of what Metadouche was yammering about... and it would make sense since Metatron did use Castiel's grace to do the spell - which was a pretty powerful one - so some drain on the grace is to be expected.

[Omegamom]

My vote's on Casifer. (Of course, I thought that last season was going to end where mid-season 11 did, except with Cas and Ceowley dead and Sam about to say "yes" to Lucifer, so...take my guesses for what they're worth...) "Save Cas from Lucifer" would make a good subplot arc for the second half. Y'know, "we're gonna work with you to end The Darkness, Casifer, but by damn, we'll be working behind your back to get you out of Cas as soon as we've defeated her!".

[MysteryGuest]

I'm happy that the spoilers seem to indicate we get back to the cage next episode, if only because I want the whole Lucifer storyline resolved quickly.  Unfortunately, I can't see them bringing Lucifer back for no reason, so I'm betting I won't get my wish.  I just really don't want Sam saying yes.  But the writers consistently make both Sam and Dean to incredibly stupid things, so I should probably assume the worst.  Then maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised.

[call me ishmael]

io9 on the Bobby Return.

[Omegamom]

A week. One more week.

[Omegamom]

New preview for next week's show:

https://amp.twimg.com/v/44fd0ae5-3bc3-4ae9-a2fd-302987394f5d

"Pain. Such...glorious...pain."

And we get the shot of Lucifer as Santa again. ???

[SueB]

New preview for next week's show:

https://amp.twimg.com/v/44fd0ae5-3bc3-4ae9-a2fd-302987394f5d

"Pain. Such...glorious...pain."

And we get the shot of Lucifer as Santa again. ???

I'm not surprised about Lucifer Santa. I think it's part of Luci-vision. I don't think that was just a Christmas promo.

I'm VERY glad Dean calls Crowley and gets the intel. I'm not sure "when" that happens but I'm glad there's no pussyfooting about it.

"Miss you too, Pudding." Okay, THAT's funny in my book. He's calling Dean "Pudding"? First, Crowley must have gone round the bend because he just informed DEAN that Sam is with Lucifer and then got snarky?? Maybe Crowley thinks that if he's not within the initial 10 ft radius when Mt. Dean explodes over the news, he'll be okay. Second, I'm thinking Crowley is going to help. The pictures and treatment of Rowena seems to suggest he suspects her of being in cahoots with Lucifer.

Next up is Cas, standing at the crater where the Angels blew up Amara (who I'm certain is alive). That looks really remote. How did Cas get there? Then again, how did the Angels get there last time?

It's got some of the Jodi Mills episode. Does anyone else think the blonde getting bit might be Claire?

Edited January 15, 2016 by SueB

[Omegamom]

Awwww. My dad used to call me "Pudding".

One of the regulars at /r/Fandomnatural has taken to breaking the promos down, grabbing stills. Some of the things you don't even see, they flash by so fast. Anyway:

http://m.imgur.com/a/PSsmU

[catrox14]

Soooo, since this will be the first time Dean goes back to Hell since he spent 40 years there and Cas raised him from Perdition.. I wonder if the show will address this point AT ALL.

Hhahahahahahah who am I kidding...

[SueB]

Those are excellent Omegamom. The person on fire intrigues me.

And it's definitely Claire getting bit.

Edited January 16, 2016 by SueB

[Omegamom]

Yeah, no, catrox. Ain't gonna happen. Sam gets two seasons to deal with his Hell trauma, Dean gets an speech in a couple of episodes, and one or two man-tear scenes. While Sam did spend ten times as long in Hell as Dean, it would be real nice if they'd have him being flinchy and hesitant...kinda like he was all hyper-vigilant and on knife's edge after returning from Purgatory.

In the stills, there's a shot of The Cage illuminated from within by big glowy light...someone is saying "yes" to Luci there. :-(

[catrox14]

There better at least be a conversation between Dean and Cas about him having to go back....a look exchanged that reminds us that it actually fucking happened.

That said, I'm confused. Wouldn't he just be going to that Limbo place which wasn't really Hell, so why are they saying Dean has to go back to literal Hell to save Sam if Sam isn't even really in literal!Hell?

Edited January 16, 2016 by catrox14

[Omegamom]

Crowley said it was part of Hell, just on the outskirts, kinda. Isolated, so a good place for high-security stuff. Remember, it's Supernatural. They borrow and twist from all sorts of mythologies, including Christianity. Isn't Limbo part of Dante's Hell, too?

[catrox14]

Crowley said it was part of Hell, just on the outskirts, kinda. Isolated, so a good place for high-security stuff. Remember, it's Supernatural. They borrow and twist from all sorts of mythologies, including Christianity. Isn't Limbo part of Dante's Hell, too?

Yes, I'm quite aware that Supernatural twists mythologies. That wasn't really my question. I'm talking about the continuity in the show itself and what we were told in 11x09. I have no idea about Limbo being a part of Hell in Dante's Inferno.

I just remember when Sam went into Limbo there was much discussion that it wasn't really Hell. Hell-adjacent seems appropriate to me.

It's just the promo monkeys making it more than what it really was. Also, they could have promo'd it with Dean goes to Hell, AGAIN. You know, show. It's not like we forgot what happened to Dean. I swear this show pisses me off and there are days that I really wonder why I keep watching.

I'm also annoyed because I listened to the audio commentary of some s10 episodes...and I'm not a happy camper about what I perceive Buck-Lemming's attitude towards. Dean. I guess I should just go to the bitterness thread.

Edited January 16, 2016 by catrox14

[Diane]

Yeah, no, catrox. Ain't gonna happen. Sam gets two seasons to deal with his Hell trauma, Dean gets an speech in a couple of episodes, and one or two man-tear scenes. While Sam did spend ten times as long in Hell as Dean, it would be real nice if they'd have him being flinchy and hesitant...kinda like he was all hyper-vigilant and on knife's edge after returning from Purgatory.

In the stills, there's a shot of The Cage illuminated from within by big glowy light...someone is saying "yes" to Luci there. :-(

I thought dean was there 4 months (40 years) and Sam was there just a day or 2. He was shown looking at dean at Lisa's house almost immediately. Heck my memory sucks, someone correct me.