Spoilers With Speculation

[Castiels Cat]

12 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Well, if it comes up, you will know by the previouslies of the Finale. Any kind of "curious" callbacks in those and you have pretty much confirmation for what will be in the episode. 

At best you will get Michael in the previouslies for next episode and Rowena will end up freeing him to open the rift and help.  

I checked the spoiler sheet tumblr again and that doesn`t have Christian Keyes aka AU!Michael down for the next episode, only the Finale. So goodness gracious, still no Michael and Dean meeting? Harumph.

Spoiler tumblr also has Matt Cohen down as a possible for the Finale. Which would make kinda sense. Lucifer randomely came back from the cage as Pellegrino so if they couldn`t or didn`t get Jake Abel then Matt Cohen for cage!Michael makes just as much (or as little) sense.  

Yeah.  I figure how long before Rowena realizes there is another archangel. If this was not a covert shout out to Michael....

Edited May 5, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[Aeryn13]

I eliminate every possibility beyond Michael and Death right now in terms of not being the power player they need. 

Maybe next episode is showing why Jack won`t be that ultimate power player. Either though manipulation by Lucifer or his own struggles or a combination thereof. Or simply not having enough power. 

It could be like when apparently Super!Rowena turned all her juice onto Billie!Death and it did jack and shit.  

Edited May 5, 2018 by Aeryn13

[Castiels Cat]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Crowley possessed a literary agent from New York which likely why Crowley continued dressing as he did. There is plenty of room for a younger version of Crowley/Fergus who dresses as shown in the BTS pics.

Also, in that pic, Jensen/Dean doesn't seem to actually be noticed by the people he is amidst so he's likely out of time and invisible so his clothing would be stylish from the time from whence he came. He's an anachronism to an extent but only if he's visible to those people.  So to me the wardrobe doesn't eliminate Crowley and seems more likely than Michael.

Maybe Dean has always just wanted to dress that way for reasons...LOL.

On my or her website we all concur that wardrobe is stilted Michael to a tee.  We all have graduate degrees so maybe that is just the way academics think lol... we analyzed Matt Cohen's performance and concluded he would dress rhat way.

Crowleyis the epitome of metrosexual. He would not.

2 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I eliminate every possibility beyond Michael and Death right now in terms of not being the power player they need. 

Billie is Death.  The suit is not black.  Ergo not Death.  Death does not directly intervene. There are rules.  Dead reapers become Death.

Ergo not Death.

Plus a lot of writing to support it through character arcs, plot, subtext, context...

But yes your method of analysis immediately rules out every other possibility.  I used it myself. This is why none of the other suggestions make any sense.  That and they are random.

[gonzosgirrl]

43 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

What if Rowena tries to mutate Dean into Fergus? Killed by a red haired witch really means changed into something else. vs possession. Or maybe he offers himself to be mutated in some way in exchange for something Rowena can do for them.

I really thought the possible death by red haired witch was taken care of with the witchy sisters/zombie mom episode where Rowena was set to throw Dean under the bus to get what she wanted. 

[catrox14]

21 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Different between portal. And interdimensional rift.. travel from London office to US did not rewuire the same ingredients.

Ketch seemed sincere. Lots of real redemption going around this season.  Tbis includes Rowena who actually was taken tbrough all of the stages of grief in her very special episode and gave every sign of being a loyal,team player this week. She has been fully redeemed and will not be doing anything to Dean to turn him into Fergus.

I absolutely want Crowley back.  Rowena is trying to get TFW back.

A portal is a door or an entrance. Purgatory was another dimension and there was the portal for humans to get back to Earth. TFW is creating an ad hoc rift IS creating a portal/entrance to the other world. It's functionally the same thing.

The only thing Hess she said to the voice was open a portal and get me out of here and he said they didn't have enough time. So it's clearly something they have to do in some specific way vs an open portal they can quickly access.  So I think it's not unlikely that the BMOL just figured out how to do it on the regular.

ETA: It wasn't known where Hess wanted to go. She just wanted out of their lair so she didn't die.  Such a loyal soldier that one. LOL

Edited May 5, 2018 by catrox14

[Castiels Cat]

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

I really thought the possible death by red haired witch was taken care of with the witchy sisters/zombie mom episode where Rowena was set to throw Dean under the bus to get what she wanted. 

Good catch.

I thought Jessica was there  yo make sure Dean in fact was not killed... 

There is a lot of interesting things going on... I both hope and don't hope Dabb spills the beans on the DVD. Just don't let singer talk. I am sure my mind is filling in the blanks at a higher level but some very intriguing crumbs.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I really thought the possible death by red haired witch was taken care of with the witchy sisters/zombie mom episode where Rowena was set to throw Dean under the bus to get what she wanted. 

I'm not convinced on that one.

13 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Billie is Death.  The suit is not black.  Ergo not Death.  Death does not directly intervene. There are rules.  Dead reapers become Death.

LOOL. They change the rules as it suits their plot needs. 

14 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

This is why none of the other suggestions make any sense

It's all speculation. It doesn't have to make sense. It's not that serious

[catrox14]

17 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

On my or her website we all concur that wardrobe is stilted Michael to a tee.  We all have graduate degrees so maybe that is just the way academics think lol... we analyzed Matt Cohen's performance and concluded he would dress rhat way.

 Well, I guess my undergraduate degree  just can't compete.

I'm going to assume you don't really mean this to be so insulting to those who disagree with your interpretations.

Edited May 5, 2018 by catrox14

[Castiels Cat]

Just now, catrox14 said:

A portal is a door or an entrance. Purgatory was another dimension and there was the portal for humans to get back to Earth. TFW is creating an ad hoc rift IS creating a portal/entrance to the other world. It's functionally the same thing.

The only thing Hess she said to the voice was open a portal and get me out of here and he said they didn't have enough time. So it's clearly something they have to do in some specific way vs an open portal they can quickly access.  So I think it's not unlikely that the BMOL just figured out how to do it on the regular. I

It was not interdimensional to another universe. It was just a the blip to London. No indication that they were traveling between universe's. Per AT and Billie the Winchesters and Cas were the first to do it.

BMOL time traveled too.  So they could open dfoirs in space (London to US) wirh unknown spell and time using the blood spell rhat Henry used that needed an angel feather.

Since the Winchesters were the ones to gather the angel and demon tablets and seal of Solomon which enabled the interdimensional rift and Jack was first archangel nephilum born AND Billie knew nothing about AU universe's until Winchesters stomped around in them I would,say it is canon that the BMOL did not go flitting around between universes.

[gonzosgirrl]

4 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Good catch.

I thought Jessica was there  yo make sure Dean in fact was not killed... 

There is a lot of interesting things going on... I both hope and don't hope Dabb spills the beans on the DVD. Just don't let singer talk. I am sure my mind is filling in the blanks at a higher level but some very intriguing crumbs.

Yeah but she can't interfere though, right? So if the books are possible fates, then Rowena's intent would've merited an entry, and then she subverted it herself. 

 

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

LOOL. They change the rules as it suits their plot needs. 

So true. Relying on canon or established lore on this show anymore is naive at best. 

23 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

We all have graduate degrees so maybe that is just the way academics think lol...

Is that a requirement to join the site? 

[Castiels Cat]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm not convinced on that one.

LOOL. They change the rules as it suits their plot needs. 

It's all speculation. It doesn't have to make sense. It's not that serious

Death as a character lectures Dean on rules in every iteration.  Jessica tells the Winchesters that Death plays by the rules.  

Some people actuakky speculate based on logical assumptions and careful observation.  For instance, since the writers actually have English degrees and film degrees they tend seed the writing wirh hints and subtext and one can anajyze the season for these.  They often build the narrative like an author writes a classic text.

These people might differentiate their crazier notions as wild speculation.  I have wild spec too.

[gonzosgirrl]

18 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Per AT and Billie the Winchesters and Cas were the first to do it.

But then along came "The Thing' and disproved that. It might not have produced the result they wanted, but the rebel MoL opened a portal in 1917.

They don't t even hold canon episode to episode. Guess continuity wasn't part of that master class.

Edited May 5, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[Aeryn13]

Quote

For instance, since the writers actually have English degrees and film degrees they tend seed the writing wirh hints and subtext

I wouldn`t actually hold up the SPN writers as literary geniuses. They do a lot of "throwing random shit at a wall and seeing what sticks". 

Personally I was dismayed to yet again hear that they are working on how to get out of the cliffhanger from Season 13. Seriously? Again? Can they not for once make longterm plans? I`m not saying do something like Whedon in Buffy when he in the Season 2 Finale made cryptic references to "Little Miss Muffet" and "counting down to 720" and it meant there would be a younger sister character introduced two years aka 720 days later. But at least think out how the new character will be worked into longterm once you come up with the idea of that character.   

[Castiels Cat]

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Yeah but she can't interfere though, right? So if the books are possible fates, then Rowena's intent would've merited an entry, and then she subverted it herself. 

 

So true. Relying on canon or established lore on this show anymore is naive at best. 

Is that a requirement to join the site? 

She can talk... 

No graduate degree required. In fact I am sure not everyone does actually...  but we do analyze a lot.  And I make loads of typos because my autocorrect is demented.

It is very very Dean positive.  

It is Snow Leonard's current site.  Basically the small group of people who liked her reviews and maybe an IMBD person or 2, all occasionally pop bys.  She only dies the occasional recap now.  And at times it is dead.  Now it is popping.  Mostly because of excitement.  I have been yapping about Apocalby. 2 0 and Dean!Michael for 2 seasons  and everyone was C.C  we love you but you are nuts.. I insisted Lucifer was not in the cage, the Ramiel episode, the AU world, AU Michael, Advanced Thanatology!!! Still... pats on the head.   The past couple of months people started to see it... And everyone there is convinced.  It is the only thing that makes sense.

I will be very disappointed if they blow it.

I may start reviewing again. 

[gonzosgirrl]

12 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Jessica tells the Winchesters that Death plays by the rules.  

LOL except when it comes to the Winchesters, for whom Death has bent the rules more often than not. 

[catrox14]

24 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

It was not interdimensional to another universe. It was just a the blip to London. No indication that they were traveling between universe's. Per AT and Billie the Winchesters and Cas were the first to do it.

17 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

For instance, since the writers actually have English degrees and film degrees they tend seed the writing wirh hints and subtext and one can anajyze the season for these.  They often build the narrative like an author writes a classic text.

Purgatory was another dimension and it's not really known what universe it was in. There are no rules really to this whole thing at all.  I don't think there is any deeper thought being given to these 'alternate worlds' than on screen and given Buck Leming are the ones that came up with the Apocalypse World then I don't think they though about it more than "Hey lets make an Earth 2 but not really". 

Billie said , "Word on the interdimensional street is you’ve been slipping between worlds, Dean. I wanna know how you did it. Now." So she says interdimensional and worlds. I think it's not clear at all what rules they have in place for interdimensional travel and if it's really multiple universes with multiple worlds vs ONE HUGE BIG universe with multiple dimensions. We don't even know if there are multiple Gods, Amaras, archangels or they all sit over one big universe.

I don't think the show has made their rules of this clear at all.

For instance, the first rift/portal was opened by Jack's birth and his power. And it was a big deal that only Jack's power could open a portal/rift until they decided OH it just takes ingredients for a spell to open a rift/portal.

My point is that whatever they decide to do for the rest of the season they can easily decide to change the rules midstream and the writers certainly don't follow logic or canon. So speculation that doesn't follow "logic" is no less valid or worthy of discussion.

Edited May 5, 2018 by catrox14

[Castiels Cat]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

But then along came "The Thing' and disproved that. It might not have produced the result they wanted, but the rebel MoL opened a portal in 1917.

They don't t even hold canon episode to episode. Guess continuity wasn't part of that master class.

Splinter group not the main BMOL and then the Winchesters got the seal. So not the main BMOL.  The splinter BMOL used it once and got themselves a snake goddess.  

This was all  spelked out in the episode.  Sorry. I short-handed this. For lol writing reasons the hand written reference to this splinter groups activities were in rhe bunker. Obviousky onky the Winchesters had accessed the BMOL outpost since the seal was used.  Only one deal of Solomon.

They did not use it to set up the london-us portal.

Yes they use magic.  But time space doors and

AU rifts are different.

[catrox14]

All their English degrees or writing degrees or lack there of as the case may be doesn't seem to matter when they don't even follow their own set up internal logic and rules in the show.  So to me there really is no logical through line to what WILL happen as is being stridently set forth here. 

[Castiels Cat]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Purgatory was another dimension and it's not really known what universe it was in. There are no rules really to this whole thing at all.  I don't think there is any deeper thought being given to these 'alternate worlds' than on screen and given Buck Leming are the ones that came up with the Apocalypse World then I don't think they though about it more than "Hey lets make an Earth 2 but not really". 

Billie said , "Word on the interdimensional street is you’ve been slipping between worlds, Dean. I wanna know how you did it. Now." So she says interdimensional and worlds. I think it's not clear at all what rules they have in place for interdimensional travel and if it's really multiple universes with multiple worlds vs ONE HUGE BIG universe with multiple dimensions. We don't even know if there are multiple Gods, Amaras, archangels or they all sit over one big universe.

I don't think the show has made their rules of this clear at all.

For instance, the first rift/portal was opened by Jack's birth and his power. And it was a big deal that only Jack's power could open a portal/rift until they decided OH it just takes ingredients for a spell to open a rift/portal.

My point is that whatever they decide to do for the rest of the season they can easily decide to change the rules midstream and the writers certainly don't follow logic or canon. So speculation that doesn't follow "logic" is no less valid or worthy of discussion.

Our reapers overseen by Billie escorted Sam to Purgatory right.  So Purgatory is part of our Universe like heaven and Hell.  

And there was a doorway between Purgatory and Hell.

And we know AU universe has a different heaven and different hell and a different Purgatory because they have different angeks and different demons and different monsters.

Yes I realize that I am making logical extrapolations here...

Edited May 5, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[belbar]

5 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Personally I was dismayed to yet again hear that they are working on how to get out of the cliffhanger from Season 13. Seriously? Again? Can they not for once make longterm plans? I`m not saying do something like Whedon in Buffy when he in the Season 2 Finale made cryptic references to "Little Miss Muffet" and "counting down to 720" and it meant there would be a younger sister character introduced two years aka 720 days later. But at least think out how the new character will be worked into longterm once you come up with the idea of that character.   

Full disclosure here. That comment I did came from a summary of one of the pannels on SPNUK today. Probably I should have not posted it because in my opinion is better to take them with a grain of salt. Usually I rather wait for the videos because a lot of times what people post as random comments taken out of context can be read totally wrong. So keep that in mind. To be honest it fits with other comments I've heard from Singer in person. But again that's the context of the info.

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

They did not use it to set up the london-us portal.

You say this like it's fact. Do you have something on screen that supports this? We don't know what they did to set up their portals or where the portals would take them. Unless I've missed something.

So whatever other portals/rifts they decide to play with going forward could allow an entity that dresses like Jensen in those pics may or may not be Michael or Death.  For all we know it could be some entirely different character that the actors think would be cool for Jensen to play and maybe not even be fun for the audience.

I mean I find a lot of what this show internally thinks is great to be less than optimal.

[Castiels Cat]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

All their English degrees or writing degrees or lack there of as the case may be doesn't seem to matter when they don't even follow their own set up internal logic and rules in the show.  So to me there really is no logical through line to what WILL happen as is being stridently set forth here. 

Oh they are doing surprisingly well on many fronts I think.  

Yes there are the occasional WTF or lol canon.

But usually if I rewatch a season or even sometimes rewatch the eoiside the writing choices make sense.

For instance.  Having Sam die and be resurrected by Lucifer seemed gratuitous to be and emotional pandering. 

But now I wonder if it was foreshadowing for Dean needing to be resurrected by Cage Michael because he is dying slow no by the poisoned bullet in which case I woukd re-evaluate the previous episode 

And lots of people complained that Dean was just stupidly standing there. To me it was obvuous that something was very very wrong with him. So maybe he is slowly dying,, or he is just so emotionally drained he can barely function.   Whatever.  He did not really spring into high gear until Sam needed him and then it was too late.

8 minutes ago, belbar said:

Full disclosure here. That comment I did came from a summary of one of the pannels on SPNUK today. Probably I should have not posted it because in my opinion is better to take them with a grain of salt. Usually I rather wait for the videos because a lot of times what people post as random comments taken out of context can be read totally wrong. So keep that in mind. To be honest it fits with other comments I've heard from Singer in person. But again that's the context of the info.

Singer is the killer of joy.

[Castiels Cat]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

You say this like it's fact. Do you have something on screen that supports this? We don't know what they did to set up their portals or where the portals would take them. Unless I've missed something.

So whatever other portals/rifts they decide to play with going forward could allow an entity that dresses like Jensen in those pics may or may not be Michael or Death.  For all we know it could be some entirely different character that the actors think would be cool for Jensen to play and maybe not even be fun for the audience.

I mean I find a lot of what this show internally thinks is great to be less than optimal.

Why would a spell to transfer someone from one sdoace to another require the same ingredients as a spell to open an interdimensional rift.

The time shift spell use different ingredients. Different spells use different ingredients.

And ummm... archangel grace... so yeah.  Since we know Cage Michael was in the cage and Godstiel killed Raphael and Gabriel was not being held by the BMOL it was simply impossible for them to be wasting archangel grace to travel between London and the US.

By the way, Did you see the set design for the Thing.  They took every precaution to show that the item had been excavated by the man who took it to the bunker used it and c.f.. the bunker was sealed and not opened until the Winchesters showed up. 

Boy I thought the set design did a great job of convincingly creating a space rhat looked like it had been sealed  for 100? Years undisturbed. 

28 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

LOL except when it comes to the Winchesters, for whom Death has bent the rules more often than not. 

Death has bent the rules for Dean... 

It is a long running plot point as to why.

Apparently because he has a purpose, work to do.

[Castiels Cat]

33 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I wouldn`t actually hold up the SPN writers as literary geniuses. They do a lot of "throwing random shit at a wall and seeing what sticks". 

Personally I was dismayed to yet again hear that they are working on how to get out of the cliffhanger from Season 13. Seriously? Again? Can they not for once make longterm plans? I`m not saying do something like Whedon in Buffy when he in the Season 2 Finale made cryptic references to "Little Miss Muffet" and "counting down to 720" and it meant there would be a younger sister character introduced two years aka 720 days later. But at least think out how the new character will be worked into longterm once you come up with the idea of that character.   

The throwing stuff at wall stuff happens too. I shudder to think of what the show would have been like without Kim Manners frankly because throwing stuff at the wall describes Kripke's Revolution perfectly.

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Our reapers overseen by Billie escorted Sam to Purgatory right.  So Purgatory is part of our Universe like heaven and Hell.  

That's an assumption. Dean and Cas were blown into the Purgatory dimension when they killed Dick Roman. That apparently sucked them into via what seems to have been a temporary rift between Purgatory and Our Earth.

 

6 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Our reapers overseen by Billie escorted Sam to Purgatory right.  So Purgatory is part of our Universe like heaven and Hell.

A

Billie didn't oversee the reapers in s8 so who knows whether they could cross dimensions. There doesn't seem to be a rule against it.

To that end, how could Billie hear anything about interdimensional travel on the street if someone from another dimension didn't tell her about it? Why did she not know how Dean did it? That seems peculiar and not logical.  I bet we never get an explanation why she knew part of it but not all of it.

I fully expect the rules will change again for what is a 'dimension' vs 'a universe' vs a 'world'.  So if you see it the way you do, fair enough. That doesn't eliminate that in the end we might all be wrong and it won't make a lick of sense, cause that's never happened before.

As long as they have a plot to create the logic doesn't matter. So it doesn't matter to me either in speculation. 

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Why would a spell to transfer someone from one sdoace to another require the same ingredients as a spell to open an interdimensional rift.

The time shift spell use different ingredients. Different spells use different ingredients.

And ummm... archangel grace... so yeah.  Since we know Cage Michael was in the cage and Godstiel killed Raphael and Gabriel was not being held by the BMOL it was simply impossible for them to be wasting archangel grace to travel between London and the US.

What? I never said it had to be the same ingredients. Honestly, I'm starting to have trouble following this conversation. You're kind of moving the goalposts each time.

I'm saying that canonically on screen when Hess asked for a portal to be opened, nothing was shown nor said as to what specifically they did or didn't do. You're saying it had to be a particular way and I'm saying it wasn't shown at all how they went about it. I made an assumption that because they didn't have time to do whatever it took to open a portal that it wasn't a permanent portal like the one in Purgatory that sat in the same spot.  I'm suggesting that given what we learned about the BMOL in 1917 that maybe they also learned something that hasn't been revealed yet.

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

 Well, I guess my undergraduate degrees just can't compete.

I'm going to assume you don't really mean this to be so insulting to those who disagree with your interpretations.

No of course not.  Nor do you when you dismiss someone else's opinion so abruptly.   There are different ways of looking at information is all I meant. Micharl was shown to be stilted, alien and totally out of step with humanity.  The look is out of time.

Crowkey would not be caught dead in rhat suit in my opinion and if the show is going to bring back Fergus it will not be as whoever Dean becomes to step up or whatever....  it would be as a character actor. Maybe he would donit as  a fun middle of the season possession episode .. not the finale.?!!

Jensen certainly would not be talking it up like a big deal  it would not be the culmination of a 2 season emotional arc for the character that was his major storyline  for Dean these major emotional arcs lead to mytharc. 

Edited May 5, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

I shudder to think of what the show would have been like without Kim Manners frankly because throwing stuff at the wall describes Kripke's Revolution perfectly.

I would pay all the money to see what happened under Kim Manners. He was fantastic and that's why S2 is such a stand out season. 

[Castiels Cat]

14 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

What? I never said it had to be the same ingredients. Honestly, I'm starting to have trouble following this conversation. You're kind of moving the goalposts each time.

I'm saying that canonically on screen when Hess asked for a portal to be opened, nothing was shown nor said as to what specifically they did or didn't do. You're saying it had to be a particular way and I'm saying it wasn't shown at all how they went about it. I made an assumption that because they didn't have time to do whatever it took to open a portal that it wasn't a permanent portal like the one in Purgatory that sat in the same spot.  I'm suggesting that given what we learned about the BMOL in 1917 that maybe they also learned something that hasn't been revealed yet.

Oh. I thought you were comparing portal spells to rift opening.   They are not the same spell. 

No evidence that they know how other rhan the group in the Thing and they used the seal which the Winchesters now have. The other methods are the tablets and  the Winchesters are the only humans who have had them.

What did Ketch say.   He would have monologued about it. 

They do have the similar poison bulletsl but rhat can just be a butterfly effect thing. There was a version of the BMOL over there and they are collaborators working for AU Michael.

At this point there is no evidence to indicate that the "old men" have been there. If so Billie woukd gave said first the BMOL and now you Winchesters...

12 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I would pay all the money to see what happened under Kim Manners. He was fantastic and that's why S2 is such a stand out season. 

I loved S2 and then they killed everyone. Too much Psi kids and sensitive Sam.  Sam wanted to prove he was okay despite the demon blood more than anything. It was a human motivation but he had to hide it behind pretending to help everyone else too much.

I love S4 more tbough.

And the psi kid storyline was not well resolved with the boy king storyline or vessel storylines at all.  It was like every year the idea changed and the new one did not connect to rhe old.  Really all he had thought out was Sam goes dark and I want it to be really cool. 

Edited May 5, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[catrox14]

Swerve: 

Maybe Dean will end up being Balthazar since he was name dropped. And I totally see Balthazar wearing a jaunty cap like that. 

[Casseiopeia]

17 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Oh. I thought you were comparing portal spells to rift opening.   They are not the same spell. 

No evidence that they know how other rhan the group in the Thing and they used the seal which the Winchesters now have. The other methods are the tablets and  the Winchesters are the only humans who have had them.

What did Ketch say.   He would have monologued about it. 

They do have the similar poison bulletsl but rhat can just be a butterfly effect thing. There was a version of the BMOL over there and they are collaborators working for AU Michael.

At this point there is no evidence to indicate that the "old men" have been there. If so Billie woukd gave said first the BMOL and now you Winchesters...

I loved S2 and then they killed everyone. Too much Psi kids and sensitive Sam.  Sam wanted to prove he was okay despite the demon blood more than anything. It was a human motivation but he had to hide it behind pretending to help everyone else too much.

I love S4 more tbough.

And the psi kid storyline was not well resolved with the boy king storyline or vessel storylines at all.  It was like every year the idea changed and the new one did not connect to rhe old.  Really all he had thought out was Sam goes dark and I want it to be really cool. 

The writers strike affected the storyline for S3.  Sam was supposed to go darkside to save Dean.  They ended up not having enough time to tell that story (remember when they actually developed storylines over an entire season?) so it was scrapped for the Cain/Abel Angel apocalypse mythology instead.

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Oh. I thought you were comparing portal spells to rift opening.   They are not the same spell. 

No. That wasn't what I was saying, but I don't want to repeat myself.

[MysteryGuest]

I really don't want Jensen to play Crowley, so I hope that's not the way they're going.  I think that would be really low, frankly.  Plus, he was on the show last year, so it hasn't been a long time since we've seen him.  

Considering just how fast and loose the show runners play with the SPN canon, I'm not sure applying scientific or logical thinking to try to determine what happens next is going to help us much.  First of all, they're not that subtle, and secondly, they're not that clever.  It'll be a Darkness redux.  The idea and cliff hanger was really cool, and then we ended up with Amara.  And they had no clue what to do with her once they thought her up.  Let's build up that sexual tension between her and Dean right from the jump, and then turn her into an infant and little girl to really ramp up the creepy.  They shot themselves in the foot right from the beginning on that one.  It gave all of the other sexy scenes a major ick factor, which I don't think they were really going for.  Sometimes it pays to plot things out a bit before you hit the go button.

[companionenvy]

I do think that we're heading towards Michael!Dean, but largely based on spoilers rather than on anything we've seen on screen. And even if we do get Michael!Dean, I'm not convinced this was a long game being set up two seasons back, or anything other than this show's often haphazard plotting. The fact that apparently the writers are scratching their heads figuring out how they're going to get out of the cliffhanger at the end of the season argues strongly that master plotting is not their strong suit. 

Frankly, I don't think that the show has done a great job of setting up Michael!Dean, because the boys being vessels has barely been mentioned for seasons, especially Dean's connection to Michael. Last season, Michael's lance showed up, and Dean was not the one to use it; if the show had any sense of a long game leading up to Michael serving as Dean's vessel, that would have been an obvious place to reinforce the connection, but they didn't. In several discussions about how to acquire archangel grace, no one has mentioned our Michael as a possibility, and alt!Michael has been fairly underutilized and generic. 

There's subtlety, and there's totally screwing with your audience. Usually, even in a detective story, when you go back you can see the clues. Castiel's Cat, the clues you're citing here are mostly pretty oblique -- i.e, Sam being resurrected by Lucifer possibly foreshadowing Dean being resurrected by Cage Michael, which is a fairly strained connection -- or, IMO, not all that specific. Dean being depressed, borderline suicidal, and inclined towards self-sacrifice of some sort is nothing new. In the past, it has resulted in him, for instance, taking on the Mark of Cain. There's no need for that to point to Dean saying yes to Michael. Again, I think he probably will, but that's different from thinking it has been brilliantly seeded throughout the narrative for the past two seasons.

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

Death has bent the rules for Dean... 

It is a long running plot point as to why.

He didn't really bend the rules just for Dean. Each time he had his own motives. In s5 to get unbound from Lucifer and to make sure Lucifer was stuffed back in the Cage. In s6 to make sure Dean understood the natural order and the souls issue. In s7, he was bound by them but Cas broke his binding. He agreed to help them because of the Leviathan. not as a personal favor to them.

Nothing Death has done re Dean was solely for Dean. And in this season it's not yet known what Billie's motivation is for not letting him stay dead.

ETA: I know Billie said that Dean had a job to do, but that job isn't really clear yet.

Edited May 6, 2018 by catrox14

[Aeryn13]

At this point - of no real set-up onscreen - what would make the most sense is Rowena freeing Michael somehow because she needs archangel grace to re-open the rift, Michael is for some reason sporting young John (don`t question it, it will not work if you question it  :) and he wanders through the rift. 

There needs to be something at a church setting with the stained glass window to act as "foreshadowing". Maybe have it be a scene with AU!Michael where he boasts noone can defeat him - maybe except himself. 

In AU-world there is a huge spectacle going on with AU!Michael kicking everyone`s ass and several people in peril as well as AU!Mike about to enter our world for more conquering. Our!Michael will happen upon Dean and go with the "say yes and I`ll help" proposal. 

For extra-kinks the characters are alone when that happens and Dean does say "yes" so when he wanders into the line of sight of the others again, they will be like "OMG, what`s happening". Maybe minus the angels who should be able to see. 

Michael manages to defeat Michael and then...wanders off with Dean. He puts on period clothes and wanders down a street. Ahem. 

Yes, I know it is flimsy. But it`s not like the show is overall doing much better with their story set-ups and plot logic.

Oh, and this is only me outlining any kind of plausible set-up for Dean`s part at this point. I get no idea what the other parts are gonna be.

Edited May 6, 2018 by Aeryn13

[MysteryGuest]

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

At this point - of no real set-up onscreen - what would make the most sense is Rowena freeing Michael somehow because she needs archangel grace to re-open the rift, Michael is for some reason sporting young John (don`t question it, it will not work if you question it  :) and he wanders through the rift.

This is an excellent possibility.  I'd sort of forgotten about Rowena back in our world, looking for some sort of magic spell to keep the rift open, or at least re-open it.  She's worked the spell to free Lucifer, so freeing Michael should be doable.  I couldn't quite wrap my head around just how they might re-introduce our Michael into the mix, since they'd basically ignored him forever, but this at least makes sense.  I still have no clue as to why the suit, but you're right...it's best not to examine things too closely with this show, if you want to fully enjoy it.

[Jonesy]

Some Con Tweets from England:

 

--next episode big bro hug

--Some of next year set up...Richard directing episodes 2+6

--Misha described as really happy, smiley, relaxed

--Alex answers Jack saved Cas instead of Mom because knows Cas is his savior

--Alex calls Jack...Jack Winchester

--Briana wanted to change hair color to pink, studio said no to changing hair.  Also says Wayward decision next week

--Misha says he has a new iteration of Cas coming.  Tree Topper thinks he's playing AU Cas next episode along with regular Cas too...an episode where Misha says he uses a different voice.

--Jared says big cliffhanger in finale

--Jensen says in Finale he had 2 full days of something really challenging...was really challenging physically and was tougher than anything he had to do in a long time.

 

 

The Alex stuff leads me to believe Jack does NOT get converted by Lucifer...at least not for long.  What Jensen says is intriguing--what makes it so physical?

Edited May 6, 2018 by Jakes

[Pondlass1]

12 minutes ago, Jakes said:

What Jensen says is intriguing--what makes it so physical?

I'm hoping for a sword fight with heavy medieval sword... oh, and wings.  Our Michael (Dean) versus AU Michael (miscellaneous guy we hardly know) for a big breathtaking battle at the end. 

 

Edited May 6, 2018 by Pondlass1

[gonzosgirrl]

27 minutes ago, Jakes said:

 

--Alex answers Jack saved Cas instead of Mom because knows Cas is his savior

Mom - birth mom (whose name escapes me) or Mom - Mary? And if 'instead of', why not both? 

27 minutes ago, Jakes said:

 

--Misha says he has a new iteration of Cas coming.  Tree Topper thinks he's playing AU Cas next episode along with regular Cas too...an episode where Misha says he uses a different voice.

Hopefully not whatever that Empty entity voice was supposed to be. LOL. If is AU 'Cas' wouldn't he be in a different vessel like every other angel we've seen? And if it's AU Jimmy Novak will we get AU Claire too? We haven't had anyone meet themselves yet. 

ETA it would be funny if it's a completely different version of Jimmy and he has a Russian accent. Misha does that very well. 

Edited May 6, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[Jonesy]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Mom - birth mom (whose name escapes me) or Mom - Mary? And if 'instead of', why not both? 

Hopefully not whatever that Empty entity voice was supposed to be. LOL. If is AU 'Cas' wouldn't he be in a different vessel like every other angel we've seen? And if it's AU Jimmy Novak will we get AU Claire too? We haven't had anyone meet themselves yet. 

Alex was talking about the birth mom...I guess the question was why Cas and not the mom, so Alex answered it that way.  From what Misha said it's a new iteration of Cas...another new one, instead of one he already did.  I think it's possible that an angel or 2 might end up with same vessels.

[belbar]

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

At this point - of no real set-up onscreen - what would make the most sense is Rowena freeing Michael somehow because she needs archangel grace to re-open the rift, Michael is for some reason sporting young John (don`t question it, it will not work if you question it  :) and he wanders through the rift. 

There needs to be something at a church setting with the stained glass window to act as "foreshadowing". Maybe have it be a scene with AU!Michael where he boasts noone can defeat him - maybe except himself. 

In AU-world there is a huge spectacle going on with AU!Michael kicking everyone`s ass and several people in peril as well as AU!Mike about to enter our world for more conquering. Our!Michael will happen upon Dean and go with the "say yes and I`ll help" proposal. 

For extra-kinks the characters are alone when that happens and Dean does say "yes" so when he wanders into the line of sight of the others again, they will be like "OMG, what`s happening". Maybe minus the angels who should be able to see. 

Michael manages to defeat Michael and then...wanders off with Dean. He puts on period clothes and wanders down a street. Ahem. 

Yes, I know it is flimsy. But it`s not like the show is overall doing much better with their story set-ups and plot logic.

Oh, and this is only me outlining any kind of plausible set-up for Dean`s part at this point. I get no idea what the other parts are gonna be.

Ok, you're hired.  Main writer position is yours.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Pondlass1 said:

I'm hoping for a sword fight with heavy medieval sword... oh, and wings.  Our Michael (Dean) versus AU Michael (miscellaneous guy we hardly know) for a big breathtaking battle at the end. 

 

 

That is some badass art. 

[Jonesy]

On the J2M panel--Jared just said he hopes season 14 is NOT the last season.  Which shows that season 14 is NOT scheduled as the final season--Jared would absolutely know that if that was so at this point.  AND the show WILL get a final scheduled season(the CW does that with its shows and will definitely do so for such a long running series)--so since 14 isn't it then we will definitely get season 15 at least.  And since SPN is STILL one of the higher rated CW shows--season 15 is doubly guaranteed.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

ETA it would be funny if it's a completely different version of Jimmy and he has a Russian accent. Misha does that very well. 

And he's named Jimmy Dmitri Novak

Just now, Jakes said:

On the J2M panel--Jared just said he hopes season 14 is NOT the last season.  Which shows that season 14 is NOT scheduled as the final season--Jared would absolutely know that if that was so at this point.  AND the show WILL get a final scheduled season(the CW does that with its shows and will definitely do so for such a long running series)--so since 14 isn't it then we will definitely get season 15 at least.  And since SPN is STILL one of the higher rated CW shows--season 15 is doubly guaranteed.

What did Jensen say about it?

[Jonesy]

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

And he's named Jimmy Dmitri Novak

What did Jensen say about it?

Jensen basically didn't get into the WHEN of it--was saying the HOW the show ending happens...that none of them know.

Edited May 6, 2018 by Jakes

[MysteryGuest]

I was reading some of the quotes from this weeks' convention, and I'm paraphrasing here, but Jared made mention of how he was starting to really hate the life, and wanted out, but after speaking with his TV brother, he's changed his mind.  This makes sense in light of all of the talk last year about ending the show and walking away from television.  Our desire to see them move on to other projects, notwithstanding, I think they fully realize just what a unique situation they're in with this show.  I really don't think you can discount the family atmosphere as one of the most important factors.  It's not like other sets they've worked on, it's truly a family of cast and crew who've been together for 13 years.  

Jensen and Jared also have a unique situation with their families at home.  Yes, I'm sure they miss their families when they're not at home, but with skype and facetime, they can see their kids and talk to them all the time.  No, it's not the same as being there, but it's close.  And knowing that Gen and Danneel also have a close bond does make it like on extended family.  Whatever it is, it works for them, so I can fully understand why they'd be content to just ride it out.  And that's without factoring in the fan side of things, the conventions, the help lines, etc.  

[Res]

3 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I was reading some of the quotes from this weeks' convention, and I'm paraphrasing here, but Jared made mention of how he was starting to really hate the life, and wanted out, but after speaking with his TV brother, he's changed his mind.  This makes sense in light of all of the talk last year about ending the show and walking away from television.  Our desire to see them move on to other projects, notwithstanding, I think they fully realize just what a unique situation they're in with this show.  I really don't think you can discount the family atmosphere as one of the most important factors.  It's not like other sets they've worked on, it's truly a family of cast and crew who've been together for 13 years.  

Jensen and Jared also have a unique situation with their families at home.  Yes, I'm sure they miss their families when they're not at home, but with skype and facetime, they can see their kids and talk to them all the time.  No, it's not the same as being there, but it's close.  And knowing that Gen and Danneel also have a close bond does make it like on extended family.  Whatever it is, it works for them, so I can fully understand why they'd be content to just ride it out.  And that's without factoring in the fan side of things, the conventions, the help lines, etc.  

I would be more than happy for the show to continue because it is a uniquely good situation for all concerned, IF ONLY the WRITERS, SHOWRUNNER and SINGER wouldn't run it into the ground with their LOL cannon, repeat, rehash of previous storylines and actually cared about Sam, Dean and Cas EQUALLY as INDIVIDUALS and not just there to be attached/support/associated with the other!

5 hours ago, Jakes said:

Some Con Tweets from England:

 

--next episode big bro hug

--Some of next year set up...Richard directing episodes 2+6

 

Reply carried over to UO thread.

Edited May 6, 2018 by Res
Cas! because he's another favorite of mine and needs to be treated with respect!

[Myrelle]

7 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

I'm hoping for a sword fight with heavy medieval sword... oh, and wings.  Our Michael (Dean) versus AU Michael (miscellaneous guy we hardly know) for a big breathtaking battle at the end. 

 

Not gonna lie-I thought of this pic, too, when I heard that he mentioned lots of physicality for Dean in the finale.

That pic is a classic and legendary within the Dean fandom.

[Castiels Cat]

CURRENT THOUGHTS.....

1.  They FIRMLY lol established that Gabriel is an impotent archangel so we can stop speculating rhat he will save the day.  I suspect he is a,red shirt walking because he has been redeemed just by participating.

2.  Something was very very wrong with Dean.  Dean usually is the guy in charge, scoping the situation, using military hand gestures, always,on point, on the lookout, moving stealthy, making fast kills.  He was off with Ketch too before the bullet which Ketch pointed out and which was established as his mental state in that episode. Now he is much worse.  

The only time he came to was when Sammy was hurt and then it was too late.  Declining mental state? Perhaps.   Going to Apocalypse world could be triggering major PTSD issues and the dude is,suicidally depressed and smart enoufhbto know that everyone is not coming back.

Or... slow no bullet poison starting to affect him.  Which leads me to Sam.

3.  Dean was off which partly lead to the tunnel clusterFCK.   Dean not in charge equals disaster usually.  Sam plus hubris always leads to disaster and this was the recipe we got.  The dream was Sam hubris.  Dean the buffoon stuffing his,face whilst Mary thanks her big hero Sam.  Sam insisting that they can handle anything and assuring two innocents that they were fearless vampire killers without any Intel.  No securing perimeters... yada yada yada.  And now he owes his life to Lucifer.

4.  Stupid emotional puppetry? My first thought.  But then I wondered if it was foreshadowing of Cage  Michael resurrecting Dean? Writers love to do this stuff.

5.  Lucifer had more mojo than Gabriel but had to feed on a lot of AU Michael's angels in order to resurrect Sam and was easily caught by Rowena and Limp Gabriel.  He is not redeemable either.   He is not the archangel they are looking for either. 

6.  Rowena is searching for a,way to reooen the rift.  She is missing one ingredient, she knows how to open the cage and she is a smart wee Bonnie lass...  it is a short leap from Michael being out to Michael appeoaching Dean about needing his OTV to defeat AU Michael.   Given the subtext in the The Thing about Dean being chosen as  the peffect vessel I doubt they are ignoring this bit of canon. 

He is still very primed to do his self sacrifice move.  They have set it up for two seasons to revolve around Mary.  Spoilers suggests she stays in the AU so it may be loss/alienation of her affection rhat is the trigger plus the clusterFCK world ending scenarios at home that push him much like season 9 with the MoC and Abbadon.