Spoilers With Speculation

[trxr4kids]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I don't remember this. What episode was that mentioned in?

Probably in one of those ones where Michael is the younger brother or maybe one where he diddles himself in a corner. Sorry not sorry

[MysteryGuest]

7 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

So it's official - Michael is back (and Jensen isn't playing him). Seriously, screw you show.

http://ew.com/tv/2017/09/12/supernatural-season-13-michael-return-first-look/

If this is their big reveal, it leaves me pretty disappointed.  I've never been clamoring for Michael's return, nor did I ever want Dean to be possessed by him.  To me, this is just one more example of how these writers have zero ability to be creative.  All they're doing is rehashing old storylines and old characters.  It's just a double dose of Lucifer, IMO.  The story of Lucifer and Michael was sewn up at the end of season 5 and should have stayed that way.  The last thing I want is a do-over of the apocalypse.  

So far, there's not one aspect of this upcoming season that intrigues me in the slightest.  That's depressing.  I've always had at least a few storylines that piqued my interest, but so far, there's not one for this season.  This is season 13 of a show called Supernatural...they should have gone all out on the spooky, scary stuff, but instead, it's just more angel bullshit.  What a let down. 

[ILoveReading]

Michael might be a dick, but in the early season, on paper, so was Dean.  Jensen took what he was given and elevated it in a way that surprised so many of TPTB.  He has this unique ability to soften bad writing, add layers where there probably shouldn't be any, and completely turn the expected outcome on its head.

We've heard many BTS stories to this effect.  So no matter how Michael was written on paper, I have no doubt that we'd see a much different character then what writers may have envisioned. 

So for me  "Dick angel" isn't an automatic do not want. 

Honestly, I wouldn't even care if Michael was a full on bad guy, dick angel because I would just like to see Jensen play something that doesn't involve grief or guilt. 

Edited September 12, 2017 by ILoveReading

[catrox14]

31 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Just like when Lucifer possessed Sam and Cass, Dean would be powerless to do anything, it would be Michael, not Dean at that point. The only thing it would change is Michael would have a stronger vessel to continue to carry on his tyranny. So, yeah, I'm not signing up for Dean to be powerless

How wasn't Sam powerful? The purpose of Sam saying yes to Lucifer was for him to get control over Lucifer and jump into the pit. And that is exactly what happened in the end after some angst and shenanigans.

Why wouldn't Dean be able to have that kind of power over Michael after a bit of a battle?

Or maybe it's something like it has to be an equal partnership with Dean and Michael to save the world, like maybe Michael won't have all the power in that case and they have to work together to make it happen.

I can understand just not wanting to see it, but I don't think it would be out of character for Dean to do it to save the world(s).  

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I'm not sure why Dean saying yes would be terrible especially if doing so, would actually save the world. Like maybe Dean saying yes to Michael in the AU is what stops that war and the further destruction of Earth or it stops Michael from trying to take over Earth 1. That would be a heroic act wouldn't it and something Dean would do.

I'm not sure how either of these scenarios would really work.  Why would Dean saying yes to Alt Michael in the AU stop that war?  Apparently, AltM's already beaten Lucifer and has his own durable vessel.  Now he's just out to wipe out all the humans, if I recall.  I also don't think it would stop Alt Michael from trying to take over Earth 1.  If anything, Alt Michael would go back on his word and come through the rift and try to take over Earth 1 anyway.  Angels lie more than demons on this show.  And Dean would be smart enough not to trust Michael's word after everything he's been through - at least I'd hope he'd be.  I can only imagine the outcry if Alt Michael talked Dean into letting him use his as a vessel after promising no harm would come to Earth 1 and then of course Alt Michael goes back on his promise.  

54 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I never thought it was "meaty" for Jared to play Lucifer either. 

Oh Thank You.  I thought I was the only one.  

[catrox14]

IMO, Sam's connection to Lucifer, if you take Kripke at his word, was a 5 year plan and if not there were 45 (?) episodes about Sam's connection to Lucifer and ended with Sam taking control over Lucifer and jumping into the pit to save the world. For my money that is broad and deep SL  (that apparently won't die). For my money, that is about as meaty a SL as a character can have. (SO MEATY). IMO, YMMV. 

Jensen playing Michael for one episode would be all I need to stop being annoyed. LOL

[DittyDotDot]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

How wasn't Sam powerful? The purpose of Sam saying yes to Lucifer was for him to get control over Lucifer and jump into the pit. And that is exactly what happened in the end after some angst and shenanigans.

Why wouldn't Dean be able to have that kind of power over Michael after a bit of a battle?

I'm sorry, but, to me, Sam was not powerful when he was possessed by Lucifer. He was only able to take control for a moment and that was only after Dean distracted the Devil for him. In my mind, it was Dean's strength of will and character that changed that outcome not Sam.

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Or maybe it's something like it has to be an equal partnership with Dean and Michael to save the world, like maybe Michael won't have all the power in that case and they have to work together to make it happen.

Why would Micheal ever agree to share power with Dean and why would Dean trust he'd keep his word? I certainly hope Dean is never foolish enough to trust Micheal.

Edited September 13, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[DittyDotDot]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Michael might be a dick, but in the early season, on paper, so was Dean.  Jensen took what he was given and elevated it in a way that surprised so many of TPTB.  He has this unique ability to soften bad writing, add layers where there probably shouldn't be any, and completely turn the expected outcome on its head.

We've heard many BTS stories to this effect.  So no matter how Michael was written on paper, I have no doubt that we'd see a much different character then what writers may have envisioned. 

So for me  "Dick angel" isn't an automatic do not want. 

Honestly, I wouldn't even care if Michael was a full on bad guy, dick angel because I would just like to see Jensen play something that doesn't involve grief or guilt. 

I think you're focusing on the dick part of my statement and missing the done to death part. I could care less if Micheal is good or bad, I'd just rather Jensen get to play something with a personality, myself.

Edited September 13, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

Why would Micheal ever agree to share power with Dean and why would Dean trust he'd keep his word? I certainly hope Dean is never foolish enough to trust Micheal.

He trusted Rowena to not kill him with a soul bomb when she could have. I dunno a joint mission might be what is necessary for whatever reasons.  Dean talked a murderous Amara off the ledge in s11, why not a murderous Michael? Maybe Dean talks Michael into the plan to kill Lucifer. Who knows!

If Michael is supposed to be analogous to Genghis Khan didn't he try to unite some of the warring factions along with committing genocide. Maybe it's Dean's idea to use Michael and Michael agrees.

IMO at least Dean would be getting something to do besides worry and grieve Cas and Mary and argue with Sam about Sproutifer.

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

I'm sorry, but, to me, Sam was not powerful when he was possessed by Lucifer. He was only able to take control for a moment and that was only after Dean distracted the Devil for him. In my mind, it was Dean's strength of will and character that changed that outcome not Sam.

Except Sam physically had to be powerful enough to hold onto Lucifer long enough to jump in the pit. Dean didn't do that. Sam did with all the demon blood and what not. Maybe Dean helped get through to Sam but Sam still had to hold onto Lucifer until they jumped into the Cage. I think that is powerful enough for me.

Edited September 13, 2017 by catrox14

[RulerofallIsurvey]

10 hours ago, catrox14 said:

He trusted Rowena to not kill him with a soul bomb when she could have.

But the soul bomb was going to kill Dean if he'd used it.  Also, Chuck was right there.  And the planet was dying and would have died if Amara had 'won', so it was not in Rowena's best interest to kill the best shot they had (Dean) at saving her own skin before he had a chance.  

That's not the scenario with Alt Michael.  Earth 1 isn't in danger of being obliterated.  Even if Alt Michael got through, 1. he's not Amara-class powerful and 2. Heaven on Earth 1 is still pretty much under lock down, I think.  So I don't think there would be the need for Dean to allow Real Michael to possess him to fight Alt Michael to save Earth 1.  (If that's what you were thinking.)  I guess the show could do it.  The writers could certainly twist things around to make anything happen that they want.  But I thought the stories were supposed to go "smaller" and that doesn't sound "smaller" to me.  

[Pondlass1]

13 hours ago, Res said:

 What comes after bitterness?

Sadly for me it's... apathy.  There are other Fall shows I'm way more excited about (Lucifer for instance).  I'll tune in to see Dean and Supernatural every week, but the thrill is slowly seeping from me.  It's all gonna be the same apparently.

I have zero complaints about acting and characterization, sets, lighting, directing, etc. But from the sounds of it... this season will be as predictable as season 12. The AU theme opens so many avenues for intrigue and suspenders.  But they'll never go there.  Never step off the well trodden path.  

Jensen would be soooo entertaining as Michael.  I don't care if he's a bad boy and can't handle the guilt afterwards or whatever.  Just shake things up. It's season 13 dammit!!  And season 14 will probably be IT.  This is not the time for same shit different day type of offerings... push the envelope.

[ILoveReading]

44 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

But I thought the stories were supposed to go "smaller" and that doesn't sound "smaller" to me.  

Dabb said almost the exact same thing word for word last season.  How they were going to go for smaller more character driven stories.  But then suddenly we had Kelly pregnant with Lucifer's spawn.  Not exactly small.

This season we have an AU universe, Michael, Lucifer, Lucifer's kid, a set up for a spin off, and multiple characters coming back.  Not seeing how this any of this is "smaller stories" 

33 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I have zero complaints about acting and characterization, sets, lighting, directing, etc. But from the sounds of it... this season will be as predictable as season 12. The AU theme opens so many avenues for intrigue and suspenders.  But they'll never go there.  Never step off the well trodden path.  

I do have some complaints about acting and major ones about characterization.  I agree.  It sounds like we're just repeating the Apocalypse story from s5.  Everything sounds like a rehash of a rehash. 

Do we really need another round of Sam feels like a freak, Dean is sad and depressed, and Lucifer wants to destroy the world.

The apocalypse was a personal story the first time around because of Sam and Dean's connection to Michael and Lucifer.  A random Michael and Lucifer is going to lack that emotional connection.    So connecting Dean to Michael, even if not small in definition, would give the story that personal touch that been missing. 

Also I find these writers really struggle when they have to do more than one thing at at time, and this season sounds so busy, I feel like nothing is really going to get the attention it needs.

Edited September 13, 2017 by ILoveReading

[auntvi]

27 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Jensen would be soooo entertaining as Michael.  I don't care if he's a bad boy and can't handle the guilt afterwards or whatever.  Just shake things up. It's season 13 dammit!!  And season 14 will probably be IT.  This is not the time for same shit different day type of offerings... push the envelope.

But, really, what is interesting about Michael? We've only seen him a couple times possessing other characters, and like DittyDotDot said, there was no personality to be seen beyond "I'm following orders." So Jensen stands straight and looks stern? Doesn't sound too interesting to me. IMO

[catrox14]

21 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

But the soul bomb was going to kill Dean if he'd used it.  Also, Chuck was right there.  And the planet was dying and would have died if Amara had 'won', so it was not in Rowena's best interest to kill the best shot they had (Dean) at saving her own skin before he had a chance.  

That's not the scenario with Alt Michael.  Earth 1 isn't in danger of being obliterated.  Even if Alt Michael got through, 1. he's not Amara-class powerful and 2. Heaven on Earth 1 is still pretty much under lock down, I think.  So I don't think there would be the need for Dean to allow Real Michael to possess him to fight Alt Michael to save Earth 1.  (If that's what you were thinking.)  I guess the show could do it.  The writers could certainly twist things around to make anything happen that they want.  But I thought the stories were supposed to go "smaller" and that doesn't sound "smaller" to me.  

 

And that's why this is all speculation. Nothing more, nothing less. There is virtually no information about Michael other than him being like Genghis Khan, which...really Dabb, really?

Sproutifer is considered the most powerful entity in the universe  not named God or Amara, that doesn't strike me as going smaller. Dabb opened a  rift into a different universe. That doesn't seem like a smaller story to me either.

[Pondlass1]

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

I do have some complaints about acting and major ones about characterization

Yikes, acting is top notch IMO, especially compared to some other shows out there.  Jeez... overacting 101.  The characters Sam & Dean are two of the most fascinating on TV - again IMO.  The ups and downs and waxes and wanes of their lives has been a fun ride.

It's the writing, man.  The writing.....  they've got gold in their hands and they just  sit there contemplating their navel.  It's frustrating.

[ILoveReading]

12 minutes ago, auntvi said:

But, really, what is interesting about Michael? We've only seen him a couple times possessing other characters, and like DittyDotDot said, there was no personality to be seen beyond "I'm following orders." So Jensen stands straight and looks stern? Doesn't sound too interesting to me. IMO

We never really got to know Michael.  He was little more than a one and done character.  He was never fully explored.  There was never really a chance to develop more of a personality.   Plus, AU Michael is supposed to be totally different character so the writers aren't locked into our world Michael's mentality.   There is a lot of room to grow an interesting character.

Jensen did it with Dean, who was supposed to be a one note comedic sidekick, so I have to doubt he could do it with Michael too if given the opportunity.

Quote

Yikes, acting is top notch IMO, especially compared to some other shows out there.  Jeez... overacting 101.  The characters Sam & Dean are two of the most fascinating on TV - again IMO.  The ups and downs and waxes and wanes of their lives has been a fun ride.

Im talking about isolated episodes, not overall. 

Edited September 13, 2017 by ILoveReading

[DittyDotDot]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sproutifer is considered the most powerful entity in the universe  not named God or Amara, that doesn't strike me as going smaller. Dabb opened a  rift into a different universe. That doesn't seem like a smaller story to me either.

Yeah, I don't think Dabb and I have the same definition for the word "smaller." Maybe it's me who has been using it wrong all these years? I have this same problem with many terms TPTB use. 

[Pondlass1]

8 minutes ago, auntvi said:

what is interesting about Michael?

He's something new and fresh.  We don't know what to expect.  And if they gave it to Jensen he'd have a field day.  

It was too bad about Demon Dean, the storyline never got developed and he got stuck in a pub crawl during the summer of love with Crowley.  But Demon Dean had so much potential. I watch those episodes over and over.

 Same thing with purgatory.  All the excitement that summer at IMDb.  And then it's all over within the first 2 minutes of the premiere.  MOC Dean - well, it was like Dean with a bad hangover.  Nothing much there.  But Dean as Michael would have been something to look forward to.  For me, anyway. And I think Jensen would welcome the challenge.

https://www.pinterest.ca/pin/402368547928678653/

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, auntvi said:

But, really, what is interesting about Michael? We've only seen him a couple times possessing other characters, and like DittyDotDot said, there was no personality to be seen beyond "I'm following orders." So Jensen stands straight and looks stern? Doesn't sound too interesting to me. IMO

It's not a given that  AU Michael will be like Michael!Adam.  Dabb has said the AU Michael will be different. Maybe he'll have a more dynamic personality.  Maybe he'll be nuts.

Personally, I thought Michael!Adam was dull as dishwater . I think Jake Abel wasn't that great as Michael, but he also had nothing to do because they neutered him in Swan Song. Like he never laid a hand on Samifer at all after the big battle was set up. They spent 20 minutes circling, and monologueing at each other until Dean showed up and then he was Molotov'd by Cas.

Whereas I though Michael!John was interesting and intriguing in Song Remains the Same. I liked his weird demeanor and absolute arrogance. So I would like to see Jensen play a version more like Michael!John than pointless Michael!Adam. 

[DittyDotDot]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

It's not a given that  AU Michael will be like Michael!Adam.  Dabb has said the AU Michael will be different. Maybe he'll have a more dynamic personality.  Maybe he'll be nuts.

No, he won't be the same probably, but since he's in the AU and Dean doesn't exist there, it can't be Jensen playing him until the two universes meet again. At that point, it wouldn't be a "meaty" role anymore, but just mimicry of what the other actor did.

I still stand by my assessment this storyline will probably go the way of Lucifer and I'll be sick of it long before the two universes meet up, so it's better they keep Jensen away from it as much as possible. 

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Personally, I thought Michael!Adam was dull as dishwater . I think Jake Abel wasn't that great as Michael, but he also had nothing to do because they neutered him in Swan Song. Like he never laid a hand on Samifer at all after the big battle was set up. They spent 20 minutes circling, and monologueing at each other until Dean showed up and then he was Molotov'd by Cas.

Whereas I though Michael!John was interesting and intriguing in Song Remains the Same. I liked his weird demeanor and absolute arrogance. So I would like to see Jensen play a version more like Michael!John than pointless Michael!Adam. 

It didn't matter to me who played Micheal, the character was devoid of personality not because of acting, but because of who he was. His only reason for being was to follow his daddy's plan like a brainless twit. There was nothing interesting about the character to me and I saw nothing interesting for Jensen to play if he was possessed by him.

[Pondlass1]

I cannot possibly imagine the Archangel Michael being a brainless twit with Jensen at the helm. 

But, anyway, there's no point in arguing or speculating or whatever.  It ain't gonna happen, is it?  Dean didn't even get to swing the lance.

It's just going to be as expected... Luci, Jack, super hunter Mom, wayward teens, Michael played by someone else, the AU and a bunch of MOTWs sprinkled along the way.  

The show is  at 8pm instead of 9.  I don't know if they were directed to downplay the complexity of plots and characters - it certainly seems like it to me.  The BMOL was silly beyond belief.  Convention fans seem to be younger & younger and ask about being dads and pranks - rarely about the show and screaming cos the boys are so gorgeous.  

[catrox14]

. I think there is wiggle room for a Dean in the AU. JMO YMMV

There are other ways Jensen could play Michael without Dean existing in the AU. Crossing back to the AU to save Mary and to kill Lucifer and the only way is for him to be possessed by Michael. I actually would not mind Apocalpyse 2.0 at all. Let Samifer and Michael!Dean fight in the AU. I'd watch that.  Maybe Sam crosses into the AU to save Mary and Sam is given a choice that to Save Mary he must let Lucifer in again, then Dean crosses over to stop Sam but it's too late and Michael says, I will help you save Mary and Sam but you must let me possess you for AU reasons.

As to the mimicry involved in playing various Lucifers, I think Misha had more mimicry but that didn't last long IMO, I thought he settled in nicely to his best version in the episode wherein he reveals himself as Lucifer. I thought he had the essence more than anything. Same with Jared,  President Jeff's, and Rick Springfield. I would think Jensen would do the same with Michael.  Whereas Jared as Meg, was mimicry and it was terrific.

[trxr4kids]

1 hour ago, Pondlass1 said:

But, anyway, there's no point in arguing or speculating or whatever.  It ain't gonna happen, is it?  Dean didn't even get to swing the lance.

It's just going to be as expected... Luci, Jack, super hunter Mom, wayward teens, Michael played by someone else, the AU and a bunch of MOTWs sprinkled along the way.  

I'd bet dollars to donuts that if anyone with the last name Winchester is taken as a vessel by AU Michael it'll be Sam. They even kinda laid the ground work by retconning Michael as the younger brother. 

Sounds so exciting <insert eye roll here>

[Diane]

http://tvline.com/2017/09/13/arrow-season-6-spoilers-oliver-son-dinah-black-canary/

Supernatural‘s Dean lost his mother just after reconciling with her, his best friend and his frenemy all at once. How will this affect him? —Adder
“That’s one of the reasons that Cas is deader than normal, because we want to play with that [grief],” showrunner Andrew Dabb tells TVLine. ” With Dean, especially, everything he’s lost… He feels it hard. He’s put so much hope in building up Team Free Will 2.0 and building up this very cool group of people he’s working with. He’s opened himself up in a lot of different ways with Mary, with Crowley, with Cas, and he’s been punched in the heart about a million times in the last season. So you’re dealing with someone who’s a little bit more guarded, a little bit more jaded, a little bit more not necessarily asking, ‘What’s it all for?’ but certainly asking, ‘Did they do the right thing? Should they have made the sacrifices they made? Should they have asked other people to make the sacrifices they made?’ Those are all questions that are at the forefront of our guys’ minds.”

[ILoveReading]

7 minutes ago, Diane said:

http://tvline.com/2017/09/13/arrow-season-6-spoilers-oliver-son-dinah-black-canary/

Supernatural‘s Dean lost his mother just after reconciling with her, his best friend and his frenemy all at once. How will this affect him? —Adder
“That’s one of the reasons that Cas is deader than normal, because we want to play with that [grief],” showrunner Andrew Dabb tells TVLine. ” With Dean, especially, everything he’s lost… He feels it hard. He’s put so much hope in building up Team Free Will 2.0 and building up this very cool group of people he’s working with. He’s opened himself up in a lot of different ways with Mary, with Crowley, with Cas, and he’s been punched in the heart about a million times in the last season. So you’re dealing with someone who’s a little bit more guarded, a little bit more jaded, a little bit more not necessarily asking, ‘What’s it all for?’ but certainly asking, ‘Did they do the right thing? Should they have made the sacrifices they made? Should they have asked other people to make the sacrifices they made?’ Those are all questions that are at the forefront of our guys’ minds.”

This is almost the exact same thing they said about Dean is s7.

How is Michael boring and dull but yet another grief arc, and lesson for Dean is opening up and sharing his feelings not?  (Not directed at you Diane, just a rhetorical question). 

[catrox14]

39 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

I'd bet dollars to donuts that if anyone with the last name Winchester is taken as a vessel by AU Michael it'll be Sam. They even kinda laid the ground work by retconning Michael as the younger brother. 

Sounds so exciting <insert eye roll here>

I will never understand the retconning of Michael into the younger brother. Like what is the point of that? Did they make a mistake the first time with Amara and then instead of fixing it, doubled down on Lucifer?

This does make me ponder one thing though. Could the Lucifer we have now, actually be FROM the AU so maybe in the AU, Lucifer is older than Michael? We know the BMOL had portals to some where, I'm guessing the AU. What if  somehow, the BMOL swapped out our Lucifer for their  Lucifer so when Lucifer called him his 'little brother' it was true.  Maybe that's why Lucifer was freaking out that he was back in the AU. I dunno just a thought.

[trxr4kids]

54 minutes ago, Diane said:

http://tvline.com/2017/09/13/arrow-season-6-spoilers-oliver-son-dinah-black-canary/

Supernatural‘s Dean lost his mother just after reconciling with her, his best friend and his frenemy all at once. How will this affect him? —Adder
“That’s one of the reasons that Cas is deader than normal, because we want to play with that [grief],” showrunner Andrew Dabb tells TVLine. ” With Dean, especially, everything he’s lost… He feels it hard. He’s put so much hope in building up Team Free Will 2.0 and building up this very cool group of people he’s working with. He’s opened himself up in a lot of different ways with Mary, with Crowley, with Cas, and he’s been punched in the heart about a million times in the last season. So you’re dealing with someone who’s a little bit more guarded, a little bit more jaded, a little bit more not necessarily asking, ‘What’s it all for?’ but certainly asking, ‘Did they do the right thing? Should they have made the sacrifices they made? Should they have asked other people to make the sacrifices they made?’ Those are all questions that are at the forefront of our guys’ minds.”

My take away....Cas is dead so Dean can be sad, jaded, question and ultimately blame himself. Yep that is totally new and fresh, never seen it before.

[ahrtee]

Just a wish, not even spec, but (having just rewatched Jus in Bello) *I WANT HUNTER!HENRICKSON IN THE AU.*  That is all.  

[trxr4kids]

43 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

This does make me ponder one thing though. Could the Lucifer we have now, actually be FROM the AU so maybe in the AU, Lucifer is older than Michael? We know the BMOL had portals to some where, I'm guessing the AU. What if  somehow, the BMOL swapped out our Lucifer for their  Lucifer so when Lucifer called him his 'little brother' it was true.  Maybe that's why Lucifer was freaking out that he was back in the AU. I dunno just a thought.

That would actually be interesting, I'd love that.

 

4 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Just a wish, not even spec, but (having just rewatched Jus in Bello) *I WANT HUNTER!HENRICKSON IN THE AU.*  That is all.  

Me too, I loved that character. I'm hoping to see Ash and Pamela and my list is so long I'll stop there.

[catrox14]

To me there is no reason to bring back Michael and not tie him to Dean at some point. The show didn't retcon S5 after all. It was a huge story arc for Dean...until it wasn't in the last minute. They didn't end the Lucifer/Sam connection at the end of s5.

IMO, if the show doesn't go there with Dean and Michael in some way, shape or form, then IMO Dabb is just trolling a lot of Dean fans who are still interested Dean/Michael connection, who are now, IMO, rightfully, thinking, 'Sooo, Dabb, what's up with Dean being the Michael Sword.What's up with that?" Just like it pinged with many Dean fans with the Lance of Michael.

I hope that somehow Dean picking up the pieces of the Lance of Michael will come back for Dean to use it maybe even kill Michael in the AU. I can live without Jensen playing Michael as long as he gets to kill Lucifer and/or Michael with the Lance. 

Speaking of the Lance, Ramiel said it was meant to torture the person it was designed for. That never sounded like something the E1 Michael would do to Lucifer. Michael wasn't trying to torture Lucifer, he was just going to kill him because he thought he had to do it for God. But, if Dabb's description of Michael being like Genghis Khan has any merit, that kind of weapon would be his style, so maybe the Lance of Michael is something from the AU. I dunno. Of course, that means I'm giving Dabb credit for plotting something a year ahead and that seems...unikely. LOL

The AU characters I want back are, with the caveat being the ACTORS THAT PORTRAYED THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Benny((but this scares me cause they could really fuck Benny over)
Henricksen
Gordon Walker
Ash
Ellen
Kevin
Cain


 

[ahrtee]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

To me there is no reason to bring back Michael and not tie him to Dean at some point. The show didn't retcon S5 after all. It was a huge story arc for Dean...until it wasn't in the last minute. They didn't end the Lucifer/Sam connection at the end of s5.

To me, that's kind of the point.  They kept the Lucifer/Sam connection going for the past 7 years, but never once brought up the Dean/Michael connection.  That doesn't sound like trolling to me, that sounds like they well and truly dropped the idea.  (And TBH, I'm not sure that anyone on the writing staff remembers it, much less thinks any of the fans care).  So I'm not counting (or even hoping) that they'll bring it up again.  (If they do bring it back in some *interesting* way, not just a retread of what's already been done to death, I'll be ecstatic, but I don't see that happening, and I really don't want a "wash/rinse/repeat" just to nod that yeah, once upon a time Dean had a purpose.)  

[trxr4kids]

From the tvline article: 

Quote

He’s put so much hope in building up Team Free Will 2.0 and building up this very cool group of people he’s working with. He’s opened himself up in a lot of different ways with Mary, with Crowley, with Cas, and he’s been punched in the heart about a million times in the last season. 

When was he building up team free will 2.0 and what group of people? I must've missed him opening himself up to Crowley and Cas in different ways and although I skipped a few eps I'm sure I would've read if that happened. ; )

Quote

Did they do the right thing? Should they have made the sacrifices they made? Should they have asked other people to make the sacrifices they made?’

What right thing? Fighting back against Lucifer and the BMoL? Not killing pregnant Kelly? What sacrifices did they make? Who did they ask to sacrifice anything? Am I watching a different show? It would explain so much.

ETA: I don't count the deaths as sacrifices they made or asked to be made. 

Edited September 13, 2017 by trxr4kids
spelling and clarity I keep typing sacrificies instead of sacrifices

[catrox14]

Just now, ahrtee said:

To me, that's kind of the point.  They kept the Lucifer/Sam connection going for the past 7 years, but never once brought up the Dean/Michael connection.  That doesn't sound like trolling to me, that sounds like they well and truly dropped the idea.  (And TBH, I'm not sure that anyone on the writing staff remembers it, much less thinks any of the fans care).  So I'm not counting (or even hoping) that they'll bring it up again.  (If they do bring it back in some *interesting* way, not just a retread of what's already been done to death, I'll be ecstatic, but I don't see that happening, and I really don't want a "wash/rinse/repeat" just to nod that yeah, once upon a time Dean had a purpose.)  

I don't understand how the Michael story has been done to death, when it hasn't been done at all really. It was a drop in the bucket compared to what they have done with Lucifer, Gabriel, even Raphael to a degree.

Maybe Sera wasn't interested in it, but Carver/Dabb name dropped Michael in 11.1/11.2, then again in 11.09 or 11.10, saying he had lost his mind. They had Amara obliquely reference Michael via her calling Lucifer the first son, or whatever that was. Then God mentioned him as being too damaged to fight in s11. Then in s12, they feature the Lance of Michael, show Michael's portrait in Ramiel's house, and even have Dean, himself, say Michael's name with "What? 'You mean, Michael....Michael??" but then he doesn't wield the Michael Lance but instead picks up the pieces of the broken one that was used by Sam to kill Ramiel and used by Crowley to save Cas. Is that a metaphor? Maybe.

Anyway all that left me starting to hope for a Michael return and it would be tied to Dean. That's why for me, at this point, it will be trolling if there isn't some kind of meaningful Dean/Michael interaction or connection.  That's just how I see it.  YMMV

[catrox14]

28 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

When was he building up team free will 2.0 and what group of people? I must've missed him opening himself up to Crowley and Cas in different ways and although I skipped a few eps I'm sure I would've read if that happened. ; )

Dean told Cas in 12.19 that they were all better together and then Cas stole the Colt, which Dean forgave by 12.23 saying they'll figure out their crap like they always do, which again is not new behavior from Dean in s12.  Dean was the same with Cas has he has always been which is open about his feelings in general. The only person he fronts with is Sam and IMO that's because he has raised Sam and thinks he has to be that role. Also, it's not always healthy to tell your family all of your sad little thoughts and feelings, IMO.

I have no idea what Dabb is talking about with Dean and Crowley. Dean has always shown his emotions to Crowley which is generally anger with a side of fuck you and an occasional thanks. Maybe Dean thanking Crowley for saving Cas was some big new shift? Is he talking about Demon!Dean and Crowley?

I swear I don't think I watch the same show that Dabb thinks he's making. LOL

.

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I don't understand how the Michael story has been done to death, when it hasn't been done at all really. It was a drop in the bucket compared to what they have done with Lucifer, Gabriel, even Raphael to a degree.

Maybe Sera wasn't interested in it, but Carver/Dabb name dropped Michael in 11.1/11.2, then again in 11.09 or 11.10, saying he had lost his mind. They had Amara obliquely reference Michael via her calling Lucifer the first son, or whatever that was. Then God mentioned him as being too damaged to fight in s11. Then in s12, they feature the Lance of Michael, show Michael's portrait in Ramiel's house, and even have Dean, himself, say Michael's name with "What? 'You mean, Michael....Michael??" but then he doesn't wield the Michael Lance but instead picks up the pieces of the broken one that was used by Sam to kill Ramiel and used by Crowley to save Cas. Is that a metaphor? Maybe.

Anyway all that left me starting to hope for a Michael return and it would be tied to Dean. That's why for me, at this point, it will be trolling if there isn't some kind of meaningful Dean/Michael interaction or connection.  That's just how I see it.  YMMV

I think I wasn't clear.  It wasn't the Michael story that was done to death, but the whole:  bad guy turning out good (or vice versa), Winchesters arguing about whether something/someone is good/bad (and then choosing opposite sides and butting heads about it), Sam being hopeful and Dean being tired/depressed,  or even one choosing to sacrifice himself for the greater good/to save his brother, etc., that they tend to do over and over.  (And that's not to mention "having to save the world from some supposedly invincible/omnipotent big bad.")  I'd rather see something different, even if smaller (as they keep promising.) Personally, I'd rather not have Jensen doing the same things we've already seen just to give him a "meaty" role, but who knows?  Maybe by now people are only watching for their favorites and ignoring the storylines.   I've certainly watched a few episodes with the sound turned off, just to admire the view without getting upset at what they're saying.  :)   But *my* eternal optimism is that they'll get back to good storytelling, at least once or twice a season, and I want a *good* story for Dean, not a retread.  

I also never said they didn't mention Michael, just that they haven't said *anything* about the Dean/Michael connection, *especially* when there was something which screamed for a callback, like the Michael Lance.  So to me, that means that they've either forgotten it or are ignoring it deliberately.    Maybe it's to give shock value if they *do* bring it back, but I wouldn't count on it.  

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I also never said they didn't mention Michael, just that they haven't said *anything* about the Dean/Michael connection, *especially* when there was something which screamed for a callback, like the Michael Lance.  So to me, that means that they've either forgotten it or are ignoring it deliberately.    Maybe it's to give shock value if they *do* bring it back, but I wouldn't count on it

To me they teased a Dean connection by having Dean himself utter Michael's name. It's both hope inducing and a bit of trolling if nothing comes of it, FOR ME.

Edited September 13, 2017 by catrox14

[ahrtee]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

To me they teased a Dean connection by having Dean himself utter Michael's name. It's both hope inducing and a bit of trolling if nothing comes of it.

Subtext is in the eye of the beholder.  Not saying it's wrong, just that you shouldn't be disappointed if it's not acknowledged onscreen.  

ETA: Or, no, you can be disappointed.  You just shouldn't be angry about it.  JMO.

Edited September 13, 2017 by ahrtee

[catrox14]

 Dawn of Darkness? WTF is that supposed to mean LOL. Also, I have other opinions that I'll take to the bitterness thread, maybe LOL

What kind of terrible music is this?

 

9 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Subtext is in the eye of the beholder.  Not saying it's wrong, just that you shouldn't be disappointed if it's not acknowledged onscreen.  

ETA: Or, no, you can be disappointed.  You just shouldn't be angry about it.  JMO.

That's why I said, FOR ME. :)

I'll likely be angry, disappointed, bitter and resentful. Like I am a lot about Dean's SL LOL

Edited September 13, 2017 by catrox14

[RulerofallIsurvey]

4 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

I cannot possibly imagine the Archangel Michael being a brainless twit with Jensen at the helm. 

I couldn't imaging the Archangel Michael being a brainless twit at all.  Until the show made him one.

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Let Samifer and Michael!Dean fight in the AU.

No.  Please just No.  I don't want to see Sam possessed by Lucifer again.  At all.  If you want Dean possessed by Michael, okay that's fine, whatever.  But leave Sam out of it.  Sam could find another way to get Dean de-possessed of Michael other than letting Lucifer possess him again.  

Besides, isn't Lucifer bound to his Nick suit?  So - have at the Michael!Dean vs. Nickifer fight in the AU.  But I think a lot of folks who want that will be crying foul when the show has Dean be not strong enough all on his own to kick out Mikey without Sam there to give him strength (a sort of reversal of the roles in Swan Song - which is seems what some want.)  

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, trxr4kids said:

Me too, I loved that character. I'm hoping to see Ash and Pamela and my list is so long I'll stop there.

There are a bunch of people I'd love to see again, but since it seems likely that it's going to be a battleground with mostly hardened survivors, I'm not sure how some would fit in there.  But for fighters, definitely Ellen, Henrickson, Bobby and Rufus.  Ash and Pamela could be working behind the scenes gathering intel.  And while I like Kevin and Cain, I really don't see how they would fit into that world (though I'd be happy if I was wrong.)  I *don't* want Grandpa Campbell (I think we've seen more than enough of him) though getting to know Deanna might be interesting?  And Henry.  

[trxr4kids]

You know what would be totally new is if Dean was optimistic and hopeful in the face of overwhelming odds and had faith in his judgement on anything really. Maybe Mary going to the AU will make her realize she's prone to making rash decisions that effect people other than herself in life altering ways. Maybe Sam will finally feel cleansed of demon blood taint/vesseldom/destinies plans/poor choices.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Besides, isn't Lucifer bound to his Nick suit?  So - have at the Michael!Dean vs. Nickifer fight in the AU.  But I think a lot of folks who want that will be crying foul when the show has Dean be not strong enough all on his own to kick out Mikey without Sam there to give him strength (a sort of reversal of the roles in Swan Song - which is seems what some want.)  

Since I was never one that subscribes to the reading that Dean being there is why Sam freed himself of Lucifer then I see no need for Sam to be there to help free Dean from Michael. I'm down for the Evil!Sam vs Good!Dean fight that Kripke himself had been envisioning for s5.  I know, I'M THE WORST!

Just now, trxr4kids said:

You know what would be totally new is if Dean was optimistic and hopeful in the face of overwhelming odds and had faith in his judgement on anything really. Maybe Mary going to the AU will make her realize she's prone to making rash decisions that effect people other than herself in life altering ways. Maybe Sam will finally feel cleansed of demon blood taint/vesseldom/destinies plans/poor choices.

You know, I think Dean is basically optimistic. He is grumpy, drinks too much etc, but I don't think he's a pessimist.

I'm really bothered by him giving up so easily on Mary in this case. It just doesn't make a bit of sense, unless the show is planning to show us a real portrait of a man who is experiencing sudden grief and loss and just can't cope. But apparently we are not getting that either because isn't Dean ready to shoot Jackifer because he's shutting down all his emotions. Like I don't really even understand what Dabb is going for with Dean TBH, based on these tidbits anyway.

[Diane]

17 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 

 

I like it, its a poster, music is fine. 

[catrox14]

ETA:

Who knows about Lucifer being bound to his Nicksuit. He was supposed to not be able to get out of the chains that were made from the cage material but he reversed the polarity on that, for ...reasons.  So I don't think he is necessarily bound to his Nicksuit other than for Pellegrino to play Lucifer.

Maybe in the AU, nothing works like it does in E1.  The angel blade didn't kill Lucifer in the AU, the angel killing bullets didn't kill Lucifer in the AU, maybe he won't be bound to his Nicksuit in the AU either.  Who knows! It's all kind of open now IMO.

[Wayward Son]

Just now, catrox14 said:

ETA:

Who knows about Lucifer being bound to his Nicksuit. He was supposed to not be able to get out of the chains that were made from the cage material but he reversed the polarity on that, for ...reasons.  So I don't think he is necessarily bound to his Nicksuit other than for Pellegrino to play Lucifer.

Maybe in the AU, nothing works like it does in E1.  The angel blade didn't kill Lucifer in the AU, the angel killing bullets didn't kill Lucifer in the AU, maybe he won't be bound to his Nicksuit in the AU either.  Who knows! It's all kind of open now IMO.

The angel blade and bullets wouldn't have killed Lucifer in our world either. Archangels can only be killed by archangel blades. I think the plan was to just distract him long enough for Crowley to cast the spell rather than a legitimate attempt to kill him. 

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Diane said:

I like it, its a poster, music is fine. 

I'm glad you enjoy the music. It's terrible to my ears though. IMO, it's the same music they used to introduce the AU and I think that's communicating that the AU will probably have a bigger role than expected. Unless it's just the CW promo monkeys at work and it means nothing.

I think it's a nice color and I'm glad to see Cas on it at least. But could they stop with all the "Darkness" stuff. LOL Sigh.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Wayward Son said:

The angel blade and bullets wouldn't have killed Lucifer in our world either. Archangels can only be killed by archangel blades. I think the plan was to just distract him long enough for Crowley to cast the spell rather than a legitimate attempt to kill him. 

Dean did say he wanted to see if they would work but I don't think it's clear if they were made from archangel blades or not. Either way they didn't kill Lucifer.

Why would Cas have tried to kill Lucifer with a regular angel blade, unless he thought it would work in the AU? Or he had an archangel blade but it didn't work. I don't think it's entirely clear IMO. Unless someone has some other information

[Wayward Son]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Dean did say he wanted to see if they would work but I don't think it's clear if they were made from archangel blades or not. Either way they didn't kill Lucifer.

Why would Cas have tried to kill Lucifer with a regular angel blade, unless he thought it would work in the AU? Or he had an archangel blade but it didn't work. I don't think it's entirely clear IMO. Unless someone has some other information

Responding to this in the bitterness thread!

[catrox14]

7 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

But the soul bomb was going to kill Dean if he'd used it.  Also, Chuck was right there.  And the planet was dying and would have died if Amara had 'won', so it was not in Rowena's best interest to kill the best shot they had (Dean) at saving her own skin before he had a chance.  

That's not the scenario with Alt Michael.  Earth 1 isn't in danger of being obliterated.  Even if Alt Michael got through, 1. he's not Amara-class powerful and 2. Heaven on Earth 1 is still pretty much under lock down, I think.  So I don't think there would be the need for Dean to allow Real Michael to possess him to fight Alt Michael to save Earth 1.  (If that's what you were thinking.)  I guess the show could do it.  The writers could certainly twist things around to make anything happen that they want.  But I thought the stories were supposed to go "smaller" and that doesn't sound "smaller" to me.  

 

Quote

“The Michael of apocalypse world is the victor,” showrunner Andrew Dabb says of the new version of the character, who will be played by Christian Keyes. “He’s a very different character than the one we met even in season 5. He’s Genghis Khan. He’s been through the wars. He’s conquered the world.” All the brothers can hope now is that he won’t conquer theirs, seeing as how Dabb says the worlds will collide…eventually.

I was trying to recall why I was thinking Michael could destroy our world and it was this bit from Dabb. This might be a reason for Dean to become Michael's vessel. Maybe to keep him from going into our world.  Maybe Dean has power that's has been in remission since he was a demon. Aside from being MIchael's True Vessel, maybe dying, being resurrected as a demon, and carrying 200K souls in his body strengthened Dean to the point that he is strong enough to hold Michael and control Michael.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Since I was never one that subscribes to the reading that Dean being there is why Sam freed himself of Lucifer then I see no need for Sam to be there to help free Dean from Michael.

Well, whether you agree with the interpretation or not, canon is that Dean was there when Sam overcame Lucifer long enough to jump in the cage, so if there is to be a role reversal of Swan Song, it seems that Sam should be there when Dean overcomes Michael enough to eject him  - and that it's ambiguous enough to argue that Sam did help Dean.  Or not.  But it probably won't be 100% clear either way.   And that ambiguity will likely make some people very unhappy.  All I'm saying is: be careful what you wish for!