Spoilers With Speculation

[MysteryGuest]

14 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Or did they just lock Lucifer away again? I'm not convinced we'll see much--or any--of Lucifer again. At first I thought they'd do the alternative universe in concert with our universe and then bridge it all back together around mid-season, but the more I think about it, the more I wonder if that was it for Mary and Lucifer? I mean, they really can't sustain the amount of visual effects it takes to make the alternate universe for many episodes and, it just seems to me they were basically saying that Sam and Dean had gotten closure on Mary and now it's time for them to move forward.

I really don't know. I will say, this is the first season in forever where there are a lot of possibilities and no clear sign of where it's all going. TBH, I found the finale quite underwhelming when watching it, but the more I think about it, I think it might be one of their better ones in a while. Just depends on how they move forward, I guess?

I can't imagine them just leaving Mary in the AU, but I agree that they probably won't spend too much time there.  Maybe AU Bobby knows of a way to kill Archangels, and he'll have already saved Mary from Lucifer.  I know, it's never going to happen, but I can at least go with that head cannon until October.

[DittyDotDot]

16 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I don't think they can just shrug off leaving Mary in the AU after all the fuss about Sam not looking for Dean in Purgatory.  They would have to at least try.  Besides, isn't MP still in the cast?  

First, I have no idea if they will leave Mary in the alternate verse, but I wouldn't be surprised if they did. But, don't think they'll just shrug it off either. If they do go this route, I'd imagine a lot of the first few episodes will be them trying to find a way to get her back.

As far as Pelligrino goes, we don't know for sure if he's back for sure. I imagine he will be for at least the first couple, but after that, I don't know.

4 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I can't imagine them just leaving Mary in the AU, but I agree that they probably won't spend too much time there.  Maybe AU Bobby knows of a way to kill Archangels, and he'll have already saved Mary from Lucifer.  I know, it's never going to happen, but I can at least go with that head cannon until October.

Yes, I agree, De Nile is a very lovely place to visit. I try to go at least every summer! ;)

[catrox14]

17 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

About the "blaze of glory" ending...not only don't I want it (too cliched by now) but it also would kind of negate the "AKF" message they've been pushing--as well as the "find another way" and "just keep grinding" ones.  I don't think they'd want to glorify death even in a good cause (though I suppose they could use it effectively to show the damage it does to the ones left behind...)  (Maybe that's why, even though the body count has been ratcheted way up lately, the deaths themselves have been made more pointless?)

The show isn't even doing that themselves, re AKF and finding another way message. Jared said it was coincidental that the campaign launched right around the time the Werther Project aired which was about an entity  compelling people to kill themselves.  Yet even after multiple campaigns the show itself is still writing about suicide/sacrifice.

Dean  was going to commit suicide by werewolf after he thought Sam was dead in Red Meat.  He drew his knife and said "Let em come".  He didn't want to help the Lying Werewolf Couple because he wanted to die in battle. It took Lying Werewolf to convince Dean to go  and help them.  Dean took an overdose of barbituates  in that same episode, in which either he did die and was revived or he was hovering close to death. And he offered his life for Sam's ...another deal. Suicide or sacrifice? Both?

They showed an extended disturbing suicide attempt by Kelly. They showed her preparing her bathtub, making a good bye speech and cutting her wrist and bleeding out in the bathtub in the teaser.  It was only the nephilim that she says kept her alive. Lucifer's spawn. That isn't really Kelly fighting to stay alive, that was Lucifer's spawn keeping her alive so it could be born and she died in childbirth anyway...apparently. Unless she isn't really most sincerely dead.

The show just killed off Crowley with his own suicide/sacrifice.  

Sam and Dean committed suicide to  get out of prison. It was a fake out but one was still making a deal.  Mary put her gun to her own head in that same episode. Suicide/sacrifice/both?

Mary put a gun to her head, to kill herself when she was being brainwashed and had been killing others.  She was desperate to end her own suffering and not kill anyone else. Suicide/sacrifice/both?

Sam jumped into the pit alive. Dean wasn't dead at the end of Swan Song:  Sidebar:  Did Sam really most sincerely die? I'm not being facetious. I have always wondered about this.  He jumped into the Cage alive and in control of Lucifer. He was shown out of the cage like a day later outside Lisa's house.  So did his meatsuit ever really die?

Sam and Dean dying together in battle and staying dead would be new, I think.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, companionenvy said:

I feel like the ship on a spin-off has sailed. SPN just doesn't have enough of a built-in viewer base anymore, IMO, to make selling a new show as a spin-off of it a plus, especially given that calling something a spinoff of another show is going to scare away potential viewers who say "Well, I didn't watch SPN, so guess I can't watch Wayward Daughters either." You'd have to be really confident in getting a bunch of SPN viewers to follow you to counteract that.

The thing is, I don't see a true spin off having legs, at least while SPN is still on the air. That's actually what gives me an achy-gut feeling that Dabb/TPTB are working towards a Supernatural that doesn't need Dean & Sam (or worse still Dean or Sam) to go on. Somebody somewhere mentioned the frog-in-boiling-water analogy, and that's what I see/feel happening. I want either the blaze of glory ending, or Jensen's (as described by @catrox14 ), and as much as I'll weep for when it's over, I'd rather that than them becoming guest-stars on their own show.

Edited June 5, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[MysteryGuest]

I know we've discussed this before, but I don't really want to watch Sam or Dean die in the end.  I want a happy ending, or an ending that's at least ambiguous enough that I can create my own happy ending.  We've watched them suffer every sort of abuse imaginable for 12+ years...I'd like them to get a chance at some sort of "normal".  

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, MysteryGuest said:

I know we've discussed this before, but I don't really want to watch Sam or Dean die in the end.  I want a happy ending, or an ending that's at least ambiguous enough that I can create my own happy ending.  We've watched them suffer every sort of abuse imaginable for 12+ years...I'd like them to get a chance at some sort of "normal".  

Despite what I said above, this is my third option - a final shot of them closing the trunk of the Impala. "We've got work to do."

But I think that kind of ending has to happen soon for it to be realistic, and I'm not really ready for it to end.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

The thing is, I don't see a true spin off having legs, at least while SPN is still on the air. That's actually what gives me an achy-gut feeling that Dabb/TPTB are working towards a Supernatural that doesn't need Dean & Sam (or worse still Dean or Sam) to go on. Somebody somewhere mentioned the frog-in-boiling-water analogy, and that's what I see/feel happening. I want either the blaze of glory ending, or Jensen's (as described by @catrox14 ), and as much as I'll weep for when it's over, I'd rather that than them becoming guest-stars on their own show.

 

This is what I don't want to see happen. I mean maybe J2 are perfectly content to be the guest stars in this other version of Supernatural but I won't be tuning in every week especially if it feels like the Raid or Bloodlines or Who We Are and the attack on the BMOL. Or the black prison site stuff. That's all things from a spy show or the AU which is sci-fi which I AM fine with in and of itself but for me

I want TFW to die together in battle. I just feel like that is the most fitting ending for them.  And even now the boys at cons still talk about them dying in a blaze of glory.

I don't think the bunker convo is the meta of the show saying that J2 used to want that but not any longer. It might be the funky meta foreshadowing of them actually dying in a blaze of glory AFTER they set up some kind of network of hunters.

Re: Jensen's ending:  Just to be clear, Jensen only said that Dean trades the car for a motorcycle and drives away. The rest is my head!canon.

[ahrtee]

22 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

The show isn't even doing that themselves, re AKF and finding another way message. Jared said it was coincidental that the campaign launched right around the time the Werther Project aired which was about an entity  compelling people to kill themselves.  Yet even after multiple campaigns the show itself is still writing about suicide/sacrifice.

Dean  was going to commit suicide by werewolf after he thought Sam was dead in Red Meat.  He drew his knife and said "Let em come".  He didn't want to help the Lying Werewolf Couple because he wanted to die in battle. It took Lying Werewolf to convince Dean to go  and help them.  Dean took an overdose of barbituates  in that same episode, in which either he did die and was revived or he was hovering close to death. And he offered his life for Sam's ...another deal. Suicide or sacrifice? Both?

They showed an extended disturbing suicide attempt by Kelly. They showed her preparing her bathtub, making a good bye speech and cutting her wrist and bleeding out in the bathtub in the teaser.  It was only the nephilim that she says kept her alive. Lucifer's spawn. That isn't really Kelly fighting to stay alive, that was Lucifer's spawn keeping her alive so it could be born and she died in childbirth anyway...apparently. Unless she isn't really most sincerely dead.

The show just killed off Crowley with his own suicide/sacrifice.  

Sam and Dean committed suicide to  get out of prison. It was a fake out but one was still making a deal.  Mary put her gun to her own head in that same episode. Suicide/sacrifice/both?

Mary put a gun to her head, to kill herself when she was being brainwashed and had been killing others.  She was desperate to end her own suffering and not kill anyone else. Suicide/sacrifice/both?

Sam jumped into the pit alive. Dean wasn't dead at the end of Swan Song:  Sidebar:  Did Sam really most sincerely die? I'm not being facetious. I have always wondered about this.  He jumped into the Cage alive and in control of Lucifer. He was shown out of the cage like a day later outside Lisa's house.  So did his meatsuit ever really die?

Sam and Dean dying together in battle and staying dead would be new, I think.

That's kind of the point.  *Every time* they showed that suicide was NOT the way to go...that they found another way each time (except for Crowley, and we know the fallout from the way they downplayed his sacrifice...)  They didn't glorify any of the attempted suicides (or even the completed ones, like Tessa)--and usually showed that it would have been horrible for the ones left behind.  (And in Red Meat, it would have been pointless, because Sam was still alive....but don't get me started on the stupidity of that whole episode.)

About Swan Song...no one ever said that Sam was dead.  When Dean went to hell, his body was left behind; when he went to Purgatory (still alive) he was in his own body.  Cas retrieved Sam's body from the pit (sans soul) and never said anything about having to recreate him/bring him back to life (or he would have known a lot sooner that his soul was missing.)  

ETA:  I'm not saying that the writers or producers have anything to do with the AKF campaign (or are even supporting it).  It's just that in today's world shows (especially those with a younger demographic) can't be seen to be glorifying suicide, any more than they could allow Kelly to abort the baby.  Just too politically charged these days.  

Edited June 5, 2017 by ahrtee

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, ahrtee said:

That's kind of the point.  *Every time* they showed that suicide was NOT the way to go...that they found another way each time (except for Crowley, and we know the fallout from the way they downplayed his sacrifice...)  They didn't glorify any of the attempted suicides (or even the completed ones, like Tessa)--and usually showed that it would have been horrible for the ones left behind.  (And in Red Meat, it would have been pointless, because Sam was still alive....but don't get me started on the stupidity of that whole episode.)

That's one perspective.  I think they did glorify those things especially in Red Meat. 

I saw much praise and love for Red Meat because Dean was willing to die again, to save Sam. Many viewers  were drawing Romeo and Juliet parallels for Sam and Dean.  Great epic love story revived. 

But to me Dean, Sam and Cas dying in battle to save the world is basically a soldier's death. And they are all soldiers

Just now, ahrtee said:

About Swan Song...no one ever said that Sam was dead.  

I never said anyone said that? I was asking if Sam actually died. It was a question of my own. Not anything related to what anyone else ever said about it.

[Jonesy]

Frankly I want the boys to end the show in an open ended way...no death or anything.  Then maybe a movie later.

[ahrtee]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I never said anyone said that? I was asking if Sam actually died. It was a question of my own. Not anything related to what anyone else ever said about it.

Sorry...I don't understand your question.  Since we never actually saw a dead body, the only way we would know (or think) that he was dead was if someone said it (specifically actor/writer/producer/someone in charge, not just spec here.)  Even Dean said "what I got is my brother in a hole," not "my brother dead."  

[SueB]

*In Dad voice* So help me if you start talking Swan Song I will TURN THIS CAR AROUND.

Sorry... I had a moment.

Please feel unencumbered to speak about any topic within the bounds of site rules. 

[Wayward Son]

IMO if Dean going to purgatory doesn't count as Dean being dead then Sam going in the cage shouldn't either. If I recall correctly, it's actually more clear cut in Sam's case. What we saw on screen was Sam jumping body and soul through a portal to another dimension i.e Hell. On the other hand, what we saw when Dick died was a massive explosion and then nothing remained of the three when its effects stopped.

 

And this isn't intended to be bitch vs jerk. I'm just discussing my views on the two 'deaths' 

Edited June 5, 2017 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, Jakes said:

Don't see Dabb as obviously writing for a spinoff and don't see him not caring about Dean or Sam...they are still obviously the center of the show. 

Dabb wrote Bloodlines which was a back door pilot for a spinoff and he barely had Sam and Dean in it. IMO,  Dabb is writing to create a new show that will be Supernatural in name only.  And he might very well be accommodating J2 for time off, but I don't think J2 want to see all they built be changed into something so different. 

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Personally, I think probably why they had Sam take a more leadership role at the end of the season was to put him on a more even footing with Dean so they can both be leading the network of hunters next season together. People naturally follow Dean, I thin this was an attempt to put Sam's past breaking the world behind them and move forward now. That was my sense of all the nonsense anyway.

This is isn't a bitch vs jerk thing:

I have to say, I've never had the impression that more people naturally always follow Dean and that Sam doesn't lead naturally. I've always thought they were pretty equal in those terms but they just displayed different levels of leadership at different times depending on the situation.  I think that's why I found Sam's speech to be so out of left field.  I honestly cannot fathom what character Berens and Dabb were seeing in this Sam that was always really a follower or because it was easier to follow. I just remain baffled by that reading of Sam as a character throughout his life on the show.

Just as an example, I was re-watching s2 over the weekend, Sam displayed leadership even with Dean and he often overrides Dean's decisions or just ignores them and chooses some other way. Which is not to say that he's being stubborn or disregarding Dean or making the wrong call. He made the right call about Gordon and Dean chose to hang with Gordon instead of listening to Sam which in the end he did. That's just one example.  I'm willing to say I can probably find an example of Sam's leadership in at least half the episodes for the entire series. 

I'm not being facetious or snarky. Can someone tell me where and when this notion that Sam was avoiding leadership was ever really factual other than Berens saying it was true in 12.22? 

So since I really don't see this as the Sam I've watched all these years, I'm trying to figure out why Sam had to be anointed  as "An Officially Official Leader" who wants people to follow him, and I can only think it has to do with whatever Dabb is planning with this idea of building a network of hunters. Unless they pull a complete swerve and it's related to Sam fighting Lucifer again. OR HUGE SWERVE would be Sam actually going Dark Side and leading demons or something.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

Sorry...I don't understand your question.  Since we never actually saw a dead body, the only way we would know (or think) that he was dead was if someone said it (specifically actor/writer/producer/someone in charge, not just spec here.)  Even Dean said "what I got is my brother in a hole," not "my brother dead."  

I don't understand what you don't understand about my question.  

It is something I was thinking about in regard to our discussion of Dean and Sam dying together at the end of the series and whether that was a cliched ending. So  I was thinking about the occasions where they were sacrificing for the world and it got me to thinking about whether or not Sam had died after he jumped into the pit.  I'm sorry that my memory on Sam's timeline there and when Cas took him out is fuzzy.  I don't get why my question is controversial or being painted as wank in some way.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

IMO if Dean going to purgatory doesn't count as Dean being dead then Sam going in the cage shouldn't either. If I recall correctly, it's actually more clear cut in Sam's case. What we saw on screen was Sam jumping body and soul through a portal to another dimension i.e Hell. On the other hand, what we saw when Dick died was a massive explosion and then nothing remained of the three when its effects stopped.

 

And this isn't intended to be bitch vs jerk. I'm just discussing my views on the two 'deaths' 

My question wasn't wanky or Bitch vs Jerk either. I was trying to figure it out.  So if Cas took Sam's whole body  out of the Cage and left his soul behind that means Lucifer was torturing Sam's meatsuitless soul in the Cage?  Like how does that work?

I  had always thought Sam died after he fell into the Cage with Lucifer but it kind of didn't make sense either given how quickly Cas took him back out.  That's where my confusion has always stemmed from.

I think what happened with Purgatory is that exploding Dick opened a portal/vortex that  sucked them into the other universe. I never thought Dean died then at all.

1 hour ago, Jakes said:

Frankly I want the boys to end the show in an open ended way...no death or anything.  Then maybe a movie later.

I hope that's what they do as well. My worry is that it will end open ended and then it just gets stuck in limbo because no one wants to finance a movie  and we are left hanging forever.  But IMO whenever they finally do end their journey with Supernatural,  if it's not TFW dying together then Sam and Dean should die together whenever the final end comes.

[Jonesy]

34 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Dabb wrote Bloodlines which was a back door pilot for a spinoff and he barely had Sam and Dean in it. IMO,  Dabb is writing to create a new show that will be Supernatural in name only.  And he might very well be accommodating J2 for time off, but I don't think J2 want to see all they built be changed into something so different. 

This is isn't a bitch vs jerk thing:

I have to say, I've never had the impression that more people naturally always follow Dean and that Sam doesn't lead naturally. I've always thought they were pretty equal in those terms but they just displayed different levels of leadership at different times depending on the situation.  I think that's why I found Sam's speech to be so out of left field.  I honestly cannot fathom what character Berens and Dabb were seeing in this Sam that was always really a follower or because it was easier to follow. I just remain baffled by that reading of Sam as a character throughout his life on the show.

Just as an example, I was re-watching s2 over the weekend, Sam displayed leadership even with Dean and he often overrides Dean's decisions or just ignores them and chooses some other way. Which is not to say that he's being stubborn or disregarding Dean or making the wrong call. He made the right call about Gordon and Dean chose to hang with Gordon instead of listening to Sam which in the end he did. That's just one example.  I'm willing to say I can probably find an example of Sam's leadership in at least half the episodes for the entire series. 

I'm not being facetious or snarky. Can someone tell me where and when this notion that Sam was avoiding leadership was ever really factual other than Berens saying it was true in 12.22? 

So since I really don't see this as the Sam I've watched all these years, I'm trying to figure out why Sam had to be anointed  as "An Officially Official Leader" who wants people to follow him, and I can only think it has to do with whatever Dabb is planning with this idea of building a network of hunters. Unless they pull a complete swerve and it's related to Sam fighting Lucifer again. OR HUGE SWERVE would be Sam actually going Dark Side and leading demons or something.

I know Dabb wrote Bloodlines but don't see in any way he's attempting to create a spinoff with the mothership itself.  To me that's fandom paranoia.  It'll either be Wayward Girls as a true spinoff or nothing. 

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Jakes said:

I know Dabb wrote Bloodlines but don't see in any way he's attempting to create a spinoff with the mothership itself.  To me that's fandom paranoia.  It'll either be Wayward Girls as a true spinoff or nothing.

 If the WB and the CW find enough value in the show to keep it on air, but J2 want to be away more and eventually leave then altering the mothership itself so that it becomes basically a new show with the name of Supernatural is actually logical if not something I would want to watch.

It's kind of like what they did with Sleepy Hollow.  They took Ichabod out of Sleepy Hollow and transplanted him to D.C. so he could literally work with the FBI with a new team. It kept the name of Sleepy Hollow but it's entire premise was altered. It's not unreasonable nor fandom paranoia to think that is something Dabb and the CW and the WB might want to try and do with Supernatural.

[Wayward Son]

42 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

My question wasn't wanky or Bitch vs Jerk either. I was trying to figure it out.  So if Cas took Sam's whole body  out of the Cage and left his soul behind that means Lucifer was torturing Sam's meatsuitless soul in the Cage?  Like how does that work?

I  had always thought Sam died after he fell into the Cage with Lucifer but it kind of didn't make sense either given how quickly Cas took him back out.  That's where my confusion has always stemmed from.

I think what happened with Purgatory is that exploding Dick opened a portal/vortex that  sucked them into the other universe. I never thought Dean died then at all.

I actually agree that exploding dick opened a portal that Cas and Dean got caught up in was the explanation the writers were going for, or if it wasn't Sera's original intention, it was at least that's the angle Carver went for. However, IMO the exploding dick incidence is rather open to interpretation. It could just as easily be explained as the three of them died (all monsters go to purgatory upon death) and their close promixity to Dick meant their soul (Dean) and grace (Cas) went to purgatory rather than their natural destination. 

On the other hand, the Samifier incident is much more straight forward. The brothers used the horse men's rings to open a portal to Lucifer's cage and Sam jumped through said portal which closed shortly after. It was pretty much the same as Mary at the end of season 12 IMO.

In regards to Cas and the soul split.... I've no idea! My head canon is Cas tried to move Sam back from the cage to our world, but the barriers around it stopped Sam's soul from travelling from world to world, and since hell is a spiritual dimension in general Lucifer was able to torture Sam in the same way Alastair tortured Dean in mainland Hell.

Edited June 5, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Jonesy]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 If the WB and the CW find enough value in the show to keep it on air, but J2 want to be away more and eventually leave then altering the mothership itself so that it becomes basically a new show with the name of Supernatural is actually logical if not something I would want to watch.

It's kind of like what they did with Sleepy Hollow.  They took Ichabod out of Sleepy Hollow and transplanted him to D.C. so he could literally work with the FBI with a new team. It kept the name of Sleepy Hollow but it's entire premise was altered. It's not unreasonable nor fandom paranoia to think that is something Dabb and the CW and the WB might want to try and do with Supernatural.

I understand the logic behind the argument--I just don't buy it.   The J's are still in every show and there is NO inkling that's changing.  Zero chance imo this happens to the show--I'm not worried about it.  We'll have to disagree on this one--time will tell.

[DittyDotDot]

14 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

In regards to Cas and the soul split.... I've no idea! My head canon is Cas tried to move Sam back from the cage to our world, but the barriers around it stopped Sam's soul from traveling from world to world, and since hell is a spiritual dimension in general Lucifer was able to torture Sam in the same way Alastair tortured Dean in mainland Hell.

Yeah, that's pretty much my explanation too. Sam was transported to the cage body and soul--and archangel too. I assume Luci vacated Sam pretty quickly so he could take his epic rage out on Sam and not torture himself too. So, when Cass went to retrieve Sam--which was only possible because Hell was in chaos at that time--it was just Sam, body and soul, but, for whatever reason, Sam's soul couldn't pass out of the cage with his body, so it got left behind unbeknownst to Cass.

Edited June 5, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[DittyDotDot]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

This is isn't a bitch vs jerk thing:

I have to say, I've never had the impression that more people naturally always follow Dean and that Sam doesn't lead naturally. I've always thought they were pretty equal in those terms but they just displayed different levels of leadership at different times depending on the situation. 

Personally, I think people do naturally follow Dean. It's part of who he is. The Asa Fox episode is a perfect example of how Dean walks into a room and people naturally start taking their cues from Dean. This isn't a bitch/jerk thing, but a big brother/little brother thing. Dean has spent the majority of his life in the leadership role and just naturally takes the lead. He was the big brother who had to make the decisions in order to take care of his little brother. Sam of course can take a leadership role, but his natural inclination--being the little brother--is let Dean take the lead. It's the pattern they established as kids and these patterns are hard to break.

Here's an example: I'm the youngest of four, I live my own life and take a leadership role in my job, but when I get around my sisters, I tend to let them take the lead. Mostly because it just doesn't matter to me who is in charge and it goes easier if I just don't argue with them. There are times I will push back, but mostly I just want to get the work done and it's not like we are on different pages as to the approach anyway.

So, what I think what they were trying to do in Who We Are was to put Sam on a more even keel with Dean in the eyes of the hunter world going forward. I mean, if they really want to organize the hunters and get them to work with them, then they need to give the hunters a reason to trust and follow Sam--the kid who let the Devil out of his box and all--like they would Dean naturally. Granted, they didn't necessarily do it very well, but I think it was just a way to set the stage for them both to be on even footing with the hunter community going forward.

Edited June 5, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[MysteryGuest]

I've been thinking about Ruth, and wondering if they'd really go so low as to kill her off without even an appearance.  Based on what she said about her hopes for the Mega Coven in one of her tweets, I wonder if she will be back?  It's a bit strange that we've heard nothing definitive about her.  At this point, she will be the only character whose fate will be a surprise next season.

It makes little sense to me to give them a Big Bad (Lucifer) that they haven't been able to kill even with TFW intact, and now take away all of their allies except Cas (depending on just how he comes back).  I'm thinking (or hoping) that since they made a number of references in the finale to the fact that they needed Rowena to put Lucifer back in the cage, that she somehow survives her fate as a crispy critter.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I've been thinking about Ruth, and wondering if they'd really go so low as to kill her off without even an appearance.  Based on what she said about her hopes for the Mega Coven in one of her tweets, I wonder if she will be back?  It's a bit strange that we've heard nothing definitive about her.  At this point, she will be the only character whose fate will be a surprise next season.

It makes little sense to me to give them a Big Bad (Lucifer) that they haven't been able to kill even with TFW intact, and now take away all of their allies except Cas (depending on just how he comes back).  I'm thinking (or hoping) that since they made a number of references in the finale to the fact that they needed Rowena to put Lucifer back in the cage, that she somehow survives her fate as a crispy critter.

I'm thinking maybe was not Rowena but one of those witchy dolls doppelganger things. Like maybe she heard that Lucifer was actually out of the cage and she went into hiding and she's just waiting to pop out and say "Surprise, m'fers!"

[MysteryGuest]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm thinking maybe was not Rowena but one of those witchy dolls doppelganger things. Like maybe she heard that Lucifer was actually out of the cage and she went into hiding and she's just waiting to pop out and say "Surprise, m'fers!"

Rowena was a pretty smart cookie, so it would make sense that she'd take precautions.  If she was clever enough to arm herself with her life-saving magic before Lucifer ever killed her the first time, you would absolutely think she'd do something again when she knew that he was back.  She was just really warming up to the boys, so I don't want her to be dead yet.  Losing Crowley for next season is going to be enough of a gap to fill in the show.

[DittyDotDot]

Okay, I skimmed back but couldn't find it to quote...about the finale being meta: I've been thinking about what I said yesterday about them possibly not going back to the alternate universe and Mary and Luci are locked over there and we won't see them again?  Perhaps the meta Dabb was referring to was he was saying they were both changing the show away from what it was originally by also going back to what it was originally? 

What I mean is, maybe they locked Mary and Luci in the other universe while also killing Cass and Crowley as a way to say we're done with Mary and John Winchester, we're done with Lucifer and God's plan, we're done with Heaven and Hell. This is the "birth" of something new while also being the old hunting things and saving people?

I'm not even sure if I'm making sense now. ;)

[The Morning Star]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

Okay, I skimmed back but couldn't find it to quote...about the finale being meta: I've been thinking about what I said yesterday about them possibly not going back to the alternate universe and Mary and Luci are locked over there and we won't see them again?  Perhaps the meta Dabb was referring to was he was saying they were both changing the show away from what it was originally by also going back to what it was originally? 

What I mean is, maybe they locked Mary and Luci in the other universe while also killing Cass and Crowley as a way to say we're done with Mary and John Winchester, we're done with Lucifer and God's plan, we're done with Heaven and Hell. This is the "birth" of something new while also being the old hunting things and saving people?

I'm not even sure if I'm making sense now. ;)

 

If Lady Toni Bevell and that vegetarian black gay witch are Dabb's idea of a new era, I rather have Kirpike's recycled draft.

 

Besides, Heaven and Hell need to be in the background now but you can't get rid of them.

Edited June 6, 2017 by The Morning Star

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Okay, I skimmed back but couldn't find it to quote...about the finale being meta: I've been thinking about what I said yesterday about them possibly not going back to the alternate universe and Mary and Luci are locked over there and we won't see them again?  Perhaps the meta Dabb was referring to was he was saying they were both changing the show away from what it was originally by also going back to what it was originally? 

What I mean is, maybe they locked Mary and Luci in the other universe while also killing Cass and Crowley as a way to say we're done with Mary and John Winchester, we're done with Lucifer and God's plan, we're done with Heaven and Hell. This is the "birth" of something new while also being the old hunting things and saving people?

I'm not even sure if I'm making sense now. ;)

Thanks giving Dabb & Co. more credit than I would.

Killing Cas and locking Lucifer in the AU doesn't take away heaven when they just brought Lucifer's half human half archangel spawn into the world unless his birth caused heaven to be cut off from Earth.

Mary being locked in the AU with Lucifer doesn't take Mary out of the story unless they want us to believe that Sam and Dean won't try to move Heaven and Earth to get her out and won't keep trying til the day they die, which seems unlikely. Especially after the hubbub of Sam not looking for Dean in s8. Seems like the only way they get around that is if they do a time jump that says they looked for Mary but they couldn't find a way and the problem with that is  how much time is enough for them to say "Well, we tried but nothing" and they give up. Honestly, as much as I dislike Mary, it would be a horrible writing choice for the boys to not look for Mary pretty much everyday which means she would be in the narrative everyday. 

 Killing Crowley only removes Hell if he did in fact close the Gates of Hell which is not known.

I always want to say to Dabb: Meta. You keep using that word but it does not mean what you think it means"

[Aeryn13]

If they had only sent Lucifer to the AU world, I would think they had stored him there for further, probable use. Maybe later in the Season. He is evidently one of their pet characters, seeing the contortions they do to keep him around. And if Crowley was dropped for being played out, the same is true for Lucifer.

Since they sent Mary there as well and she is even more of a pet character, the "later in the Season" becomes "pretty early on", if not the Season Opener.

Also, to me it is a moot point if the brothers can even open another portal. They have super-Neph around. He could do it in uterus, he can do it now. The AU world is thus just a plot contrivance away whenever they want it.  

That`s why I never remotely felt from the Finale like they were done with the characters, just the opposite. The set-up to bring them back into major play is, at least for Lucifer, so much higher than after last Season`s Finale.  

The Season Opener or the second episode might deal with Sam and the Neph having some kind of weird bonding in an Amara 2.0 way. The portal will be opened and we will see Lucifer and Mary again. Something will obviously happen with Cas. Maybe Alt!Cas comes into play first and real!Cas gets resurrected later. Or it happens concurrently with Alt!Cas being a one-episode gimmick. And real!Cas will be suitably different as well. 

Dean is the only one who doesn`t have a set-up for Season 13 so far. He was left with Cas but that is inconsequential because he doesn`t have powers to do anything about it. That will most likely fall to Super-Neph.

[Pondlass1]

Seasons 11 & 12 have been THE worst (imo).  I don't want to delve into which brother did this or that or who got the most kills.  Both seasons were dull as dishwater (imo).  I was never really engaged in anything that was going on on my TV screen.  I often found myself looking for things like Jensen's scar on his chin or which episode I'd seen that shirt before, or why Jensen's jackets often seem too small and short in the arms.  S12 episodes are on my PVR and I haven't even bothered to re-watch any of them ('cept  Regarding Dean) and I haven't even removed the cellophane from season 11 DVD.

The writers are back as we speak.  Unless they've been under a rock they must be aware of rising complaints - not enough badass S&D, character deaths now blasé , etc. etc.

I don't know anyone that's enthused about the son storyline.  Jack's going to start off hinting evil (usual shock and awe) then fizzle to  boring (a la Amara).  He'll disappear for episodes without mention. The AU could be interesting, but the writers rarely stick to canon so it'll be all over the place.

I'll watch for Jensen, I guess.  But my expectations are really low.  

Edited June 7, 2017 by Pondlass1

[Idahoforspn]

On 6/5/2017 at 1:41 PM, catrox14 said:

 

Just as an example, I was re-watching s2 over the weekend, Sam displayed leadership even with Dean and he often overrides Dean's decisions or just ignores them and chooses some other way. Which is not to say that he's being stubborn or disregarding Dean or making the wrong call. He made the right call about Gordon and Dean chose to hang with Gordon instead of listening to Sam which in the end he did. That's just one example.  I'm willing to say I can probably find an example of Sam's leadership in at least half the episodes for the entire series. 

The Dean leads Sam follows has always confused me. I have seen Sam regularly disagree with Dean and Dean has regularly agreed to do things Sam's way over the course of the series. Sam actually isn't that great of a follower in my opinion.

[Jonesy]

The CW announced today that Supernatural season 13 premieres Thursday October 12--little over 4 months away...Hellatus.

Edited June 8, 2017 by Jakes

[ILoveReading]

https://vimeo.com/219926275

New Shaving People Punting things video.

Not sure if it means anything with regards to s13 but putting it here just in case. 

Edited June 10, 2017 by ILoveReading

[catrox14]

49 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

https://vimeo.com/219926275

New Shaving People Punting things video.

Not sure if it means anything with regards to s13 but putting it here just in case. 

The fuck? 

If they broke Baby,.....there are not enough NOPES in the world for that.

Is it foreshadowing a rift between Dean and Sam OR is foreshadowing that Baby is in both the real SPNverse and the AU.

Hmmm...interesting.

Edited June 10, 2017 by catrox14

[ILoveReading]

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

The fuck? 

If they broke Baby,.....there are not enough NOPES in the world for that.

Is it foreshadowing a rift between Dean and Sam OR is foreshadowing that Baby is in both the real SPNverse and the AU.

Hmmm...interesting.

I thought it might be forshadowing for multiple episodes of AUs. 

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I thought it might be forshadowing for multiple episodes of AUs. 

I think the hand coming up through Baby is really interesting. Is that Sproutifer's hand who has broken the world? A demon?  new monster?

[CluelessDrifter]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I thought it might be forshadowing for multiple episodes of AUs. 

That's my take on it as well, like they'll have a foot on either side, especially with the way the 'P' of SPN was inverted and the N and P were switched.  It's like the Upside Down in Stranger Things maybe?

Edited June 10, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[MysteryGuest]

Interesting.  I have no clue what to make of it.  It is season 13, so going all out on the supernatural would be really cool.  I'd love to believe that last season was a learning experience for the new writers, and they'll hit it out of the park for 13.  I'm getting separation anxiety already, because I don't want this to be the last season.  I'm not ready!!

I get sucked in way too easily!!

[catrox14]

@MysteryGuest   Well hello to your Demon!Dean avi.  This delights me!

[MysteryGuest]

13 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Well hello to your Demon!Dean avi.  This delights me!

I'm a little slow on the uptake and just today figured out how to actually upload a picture, so thanks!  He sure is purdy!!

[catrox14]

28 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I'm a little slow on the uptake and just today figured out how to actually upload a picture, so thanks!  He sure is purdy!!

You know what's sad? I know the exact moment from which that pic hails.  I may or may not have watched that scene on loop 5280 times (is that a lot?).

[MysteryGuest]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

You know what's sad? I know the exact moment from which that pic hails.  I may or may not have watched that scene on loop 5280 times (is that a lot?).

You say it like it's a bad thing??  I see nothing wrong with it whatsoever!

[Jonesy]

Some good tweets from people at the SPN Phoenix Con:

 

 

 

--What will Mark miss most about SPN?  "The people, nice place to go to work"

--Mark: Don't be mad or sad.  They live on in reruns."  A little mad to get his line cut but "that's just my bitchy moany phase."

--The only thing I'm upset is I got screwed out of saying even when I lose, I win.  You can tell where.

--Mark Sheppard on leaving Supernatural: I watch the show for the Winchesters and it evolves.  My character ran its arc.

--Mark compliments the boys.  "They're like me, committed to telling the best story possible."

--Mark also re-tweeted a photo-op with him and Misha with a fan...showing all is good between the 2

 

--Ruth said no spoilers but "we'll see what happens" on her coming back to the show

 

--Are J2M as close off screen as off?  Misha's genuine answer: Yes they are friends and that's why he thinks the show works so well

--J2M are life long friends

--Misha Collins wanted to be a series regular and make life long friendships with cast mates.  Both came to pass

--Some excellent Trump shade and I think Misha just shot down the rumors of AU!Cas

--Misha re: AU Cas , don't put too much stock on rumors you hear online

 

 

 

 

So...some good stuff.  My takeaways:

 

--On Mark...he's fine with his cast mates, a little salty over not getting his line he wrote and okay with the timing of his leaving the show--it was running its course with Crowley

 

--On Ruth...I just have and still get the vibe Rowena will be back

 

--On Misha...love his friendship with the J's.  And what I REALLY LOVE is I think Misha clearly hinted without out and out saying it is that we get REAL CAS back and NOT AU Cas

Edited June 11, 2017 by Jakes

[The Morning Star]

23 minutes ago, Jakes said:

Some good tweets from people at the SPN Phoenix Con:

 

 

 

--What will Mark miss most about SPN?  "The people, nice place to go to work"

--Mark: Don't be mad or sad.  They live on in reruns."  A little mad to get his line cut but "that's just my bitchy moany phase."

--The only thing I'm upset is I got screwed out of saying even when I lose, I win.  You can tell where.

--Mark Sheppard on leaving Supernatural: I watch the show for the Winchesters and it evolves.  My character ran its arc.

--Mark compliments the boys.  "They're like me, committed to telling the best story possible."

--Mark also re-tweeted a photo-op with him and Misha with a fan...showing all is good between the 2

 

--Ruth said no spoilers but "we'll see what happens" on her coming back to the show

 

--Are J2M as close off screen as off?  Misha's genuine answer: Yes they are friends and that's why he thinks the show works so well

--J2M are life long friends

--Misha Collins wanted to be a series regular and make life long friendships with cast mates.  Both came to pass

--Some excellent Trump shade and I think Misha just shot down the rumors of AU!Cas

--Misha re: AU Cas , don't put too much stock on rumors you hear online

 

 

 

 

So...some good stuff.  My takeaways:

 

--On Mark...he's fine with his cast mates, a little salty over not getting his line he wrote and okay with the timing of his leaving the show--it was running its course with Crowley

 

--On Ruth...I just have and still get the vibe Rowena will be back

 

--On Misha...love his friendship with the J's.  And what I REALLY LOVE is I think Misha clearly hinted without out and out saying it is that we get REAL CAS back and NOT AU Cas

I hope it's our own real Seraphim Cas not some mutated Nephilim creation.

[Jonesy]

9 minutes ago, The Morning Star said:

I hope it's our own real Seraphim Cas not some mutated Nephilim creation.

I think the show will do what it always does with J2M--when any of the three change in a huge way...it doesn't stick.  They go back to essentially the characters we love in the end even if they are impacted heavily...they integrate those experiences and are changed BUT not that changed.  Which is good.

[DittyDotDot]

16 minutes ago, The Morning Star said:

--On Mark...he's fine with his cast mates, a little salty over not getting his line he wrote and okay with the timing of his leaving the show--it was running its course with Crowley

 

--On Ruth...I just have and still get the vibe Rowena will be back

 

--On Misha...love his friendship with the J's.  And what I REALLY LOVE is I think Misha clearly hinted without out and out saying it is that we get REAL CAS back and NOT AU Cas

All three seem to confirm what I've been thinking. I'm still firmly in the belief that Rowena is not dead--yeah, still visiting De Nile, it's lovely this time of year--and I figured Sheppard would mellow with some time.

As to Cass, I was pretty hopeful they wouldn't replace Cass with the alternate universe version of him. Doesn't mean I wouldn't put it past them, just that I was hopeful. However, I don't think he'll be part nephilim, I'm guessing he'll be real Cass, just depowered somehow. I hope it sticks this time. But for as much as they complain about Cass's powers being a problem in the writing, they sure do love to have that angel dust to sprinkle around when it suits them. 

[catrox14]

24 minutes ago, Jakes said:

I think the show will do what it always does with J2M--when any of the three change in a huge way...it doesn't stick.  They go back to essentially the characters we love in the end even if they are impacted heavily...they integrate those experiences and are changed BUT not that changed.  Which is good.

IMO, the only way we can have REAL Cas back...is flashbacks or Sproutifer heals him. Cas' ashy wings were shown on the ground like all the other angels who've died and stayed really most  sincerely dead and thus far, even with Gabriel that has proven true.  If ashy wings =/= death for angels then what does?  Also IMO those wings also looked weirdly shaped IMO so I still think AU/Other!Cas is possible no matter what Misha says. I think Misha is still covering for Jared's screw up in Rome, meaning Misha saying AU!Cas rumors should be discounted could still be him playing clean up.

Also, that news of J2M being life long friends must really chap the hides of those that claim J2M hate each other. LOL

Edited June 11, 2017 by catrox14

[Jonesy]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

IMO, the only way we can have REAL Cas back...is flashbacks or Sproutifer heals him. Cas' ashy wings were shown on the ground like all the other angels who've died and stayed really most  sincerely dead and thus far, even with Gabriel that has proven true.  If ashy wings =/= death for angels then what does?  Also IMO those wings also looked weirdly shaped IMO so I still think AU/Other!Cas is possible no matter what Misha says. I think Misha is still covering for Jared's screw up in Rome.

Also, that news of J2M being life long friends must really chap the hides of those that claim J2M hate each other. LOL

AU Cas is not happening.  Misha clearly hinted not to believe it--he practically underlined it.   By real Cas, mean the same Cas not pre-angels falling Cas...only Lucifer has wings right now.  BUT if talking about Ashy wings--doesn't matter, they are bringing real Cas back...he has a future as Misha told his fans.  PS--you are RIGHT sproutifer makes a lot of sense.

Edited June 11, 2017 by Jakes

[MysteryGuest]

I never really got how AU Cas would work, anyway.  He only needed Jimmy's vessel to speak with Dean, since he couldn't recognize Cas' true form.  In the AU, there is no Dean, so if there's a Cas, he would just be among the fighting angels, or in someone else's form.  Now Cas de-powered or affected by the Nephilim somehow, I can see.  I don't really care if he has his powers, or not, but I want him to regain his confidence and not be the sad sack he's been for more than a few seasons.  

I will remain hopeful about Rowena.  I think ultimately, they will need her to permanently deal with Lucifer.

Edited June 11, 2017 by MysteryGuest

[catrox14]

Just now, Jakes said:

AU Cas is not happening.  Misha clearly hinted not to believe it--he practically underlined it.   By real Cas, mean the same Cas not pre-angels falling Cas...only Lucifer has wings right now.

Cas has his tattered wings back.  He got them back when he got his grace back but he still cannot teleport with them. Those wings were shown as ashes, so I don't see how it can be the most current Cas either unless burned angel wings is no longer a sign of angel death.

Given Jared's screw up in Rome, why would Misha give away any kind of plot point about an AU!Cas? Misha could easily be misdirecting fans so as to not spoil what is coming.