Spoilers With Speculation

[gonzosgirrl]

6 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

But, Crowley's role in the whole thing was to seal the rift. Crowley delivered, IMO.

But if it wasn't supposed to seal immediately after his death - and I assume that's how it was supposed to work since Sam pulled Dean back from going after Cas - then what was the point? Did they expect Lucifer to just stand their crowing over Crowley's body and not at least try to follow them? Should we then assume that was the purpose of Cas coming through, trying to kill him with a blade he knew would be ineffective - to distract him? He would be trapped there with him in that case. And if so, then why did Dean/Sam seem so surprised by it?

Edited May 29, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[Idahoforspn]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

But if it wasn't supposed to seal immediately after his death - and I assume that's how it was supposed to work since Sam pulled Dean back from going after Cas - then what was the point? Did they expect Lucifer to just stand their crowing over Crowley's body and not at least try to follow them? Should we then assume that was the purpose of Cas coming through, trying to kill him with a blade he knew would be ineffective - to distract him? And if so, then why did Dean/Sam seem so surprised by it?

Bad writing explains it all :-)

[ILoveReading]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

It was effective int hat it did close the Rift.

I still can't figure out why Cas went back through to kill Lucifer. He had NO reason to do it. I really wonder if Sproutifer was controlling Cas at that point and compelled him to kill Dear Old Dadifer which might be why Cas looked kind of surprised when he came back through the rift.

But was it Crowley's spell that closed the rift or was is Jack?  I thought that since Jack's impending birth opened it, that his actual birth actually closed it.

As for Cas, it was for no other reason than make sure he was in a position for Lucifer to kill him off.  He comes through the rift , then "omg, shock value" Lucifer stabs him.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

If that was the case, there wouldn't be the undercurrent of animosity.

I just keep thinking about the Twitter animosity from Manu Bennett on Arrow. He literally said he wasn't returning to Arrow and then said "Assumption is the mother ".

Thus far the only interaction we've seen on Twitter is between Mark and Michaels which does seem frosty. I'm not taking any of the silence from other cast members as meaning much of anything about Mark. I'm going with they haven't said anything for valid reasons but none of which are necessarily a personal animus with Mark.

I keep going back and forth on this.It's just so weird!

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

But if it wasn't supposed to seal immediately after his death - and I assume that's how it was supposed to work since Sam pulled Dean back from going after Cas - then what was the point? Did they expect Lucifer to just stand their crowing over Crowley's body and not at least try to follow them? Should we then assume that was the purpose of Cas coming through, trying to kill him with a blade he knew would be ineffective - to distract him? He would be trapped there with him in that case. And if so, then why did Dean/Sam seem so surprised by it?

I have no idea why it took so damn long to close that rift--just like I have no idea why Sam and Dean stayed in that hotel room with President Jeff when it would've been far smarter for them to vamoose with everyone else--but I'd wager no one thought it would take that long for the spell to take effect. I'd also wager that Dabb didn't count on how long it would take to get all that nonsense done when he wrote it.

Still though, I feel like Crowley did win. The spell worked and Luci is indeed trapped on the other side of the rift. Not Crowley's fault if someone messes with that later, IMO.

[Pondlass1]

Money or script or both. I think they went with the other Mark as regular and demoted Mark S so he said take the job and shove it.  It's not like he's had a compelling storyline or anything ? 

I don't like this behind the scenes animosity, tho.  Mark always spoke so fondly of the show and how it was like family. I wonder where Ruth sits in all this?  

[catrox14]

Just now, ILoveReading said:

But was it Crowley's spell that closed the rift or was is Jack?  I thought that since Jack's impending birth opened it, that his actual birth actually closed it.

As for Cas, it was for no other reason than make sure he was in a position for Lucifer to kill him off.  He comes through the rift , then "omg, shock value" Lucifer stabs him.

I remember Cas saying that Sproutifer's power opened the Rift but and that he had faith he would close it again. But that doesn't mean it happened that way. Crowley's spell was intended specifically to close the Rift and he gave his life for that to happen. Thus far, there is nothing to suggest that it didn't work.

I can't see any logical reason for Real! Cas to have made that choice of his own volition. There was no reason for it when the plan was to close the Rift and trap Lucifer there via Crowley's spell. Cas would never have wasted his time trying to kill Lucifer with his angel blade because he knows better. The boys know better too.  

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I remember Cas saying that Sproutifer's power opened the Rift but and that he had faith he would close it again. But that doesn't mean it happened that way. Crowley's spell was intended specifically to close the Rift and he gave his life for that to happen. Thus far, there is nothing to suggest that it didn't work.

I can't see any logical reason for Real! Cas to have made that choice of his own volition. There was no reason for it when the plan was to close the Rift and trap Lucifer there via Crowley's spell. Cas would never have wasted his time trying to kill Lucifer with his angel blade because he knows better. The boys know better too.  

But the thing is, there was a good five minutes between Crowley dying and the rift closing. How did they expect to keep Luci there when Sam and Dean were already waiting by the rift for him to kill himself - and why did they even wait? No matter [Crowley's] intentions, if Luci walked back out before the rift closed (and he did), then their plan failed.

[catrox14]

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

But the thing is, there was a good five minutes between Crowley dying and the rift closing. How did they expect to keep Luci there when Sam and Dean were already waiting by the rift for him to kill himself - and why did they even wait? No matter [Crowley's] intentions, if Luci walked back out before the rift closed (and he did), then their plan failed.

IMO, Sam and Dean's reaction to Cas coming back through implied that was an unexpected thing. So why would Cas go back through just to maybe kill Lucifer when he had promised to take care of Sproutifer? Why would he risk going in and not being able to come back? If it was a suicide mission, why didn't he just stay behind to make sure neither he nor Lucifer came back through? 

Many things don't make sense, which is why I keep thinking there is something way more happening here than meets the eye. Maybe every time the boys, Cas and Lucifer went in and out of that universe it slightly altered events in their universe.

Shenanigans, I say! Shenanigans!

[DittyDotDot]

21 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

But the thing is, there was a good five minutes between Crowley dying and the rift closing. How did they expect to keep Luci there when Sam and Dean were already waiting by the rift for him to kill himself - and why did they even wait? No matter [Crowley's] intentions, if Luci walked back out before the rift closed (and he did), then their plan failed.

When I first watched the episode, I was sure it wasn't the spell that closed the rift, but the spawn's birth. But, that was also when I wasn't convinced of Crowley's death. Now that I am convinced, I think it was Crowley's spell and they just didn't get the pacing right on that whole sequence. 

However, I won't be terribly surprised if they decide to make Crowley's death pointless next season. Right now, I'm a hopeful gal, though. ;)

[MysteryGuest]

I'm not sure what to think about Mark anymore.  If he left of his own accord, you'd think he'd say that in one of his tweets.  The fact that he hasn't said "felt it was time to move on", or anything like that it certainly does seem like he was asked to leave.  I had hoped it was his choice, then I could miss the character, but be happy for Mark.  Knowing that it was probably Dabb's choice makes me angry.  He's so eager to shake things up by getting rid of some favorite characters, yet we can do the whole wash, rinse, repeat thing with Lucifer.  

[DittyDotDot]

15 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I'm not sure what to think about Mark anymore.  If he left of his own accord, you'd think he'd say that in one of his tweets.  The fact that he hasn't said "felt it was time to move on", or anything like that it certainly does seem like he was asked to leave.  I had hoped it was his choice, then I could miss the character, but be happy for Mark.  Knowing that it was probably Dabb's choice makes me angry.  He's so eager to shake things up by getting rid of some favorite characters, yet we can do the whole wash, rinse, repeat thing with Lucifer.  

Oh, but Mark did say it was time for something new:

Whether that means it was his idea to try something new or if he was forced to, I don't know. I think we'll get a bit more clearer picture after his appearance at the upcoming con, though.

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Whether that means it was his idea to try something new or if he was forced to, I don't know. I think we'll get a bit more clearer picture after his appearance at the upcoming con, though.

Something new....as in his own show on the CW? I dunno, I still think it might not be as awful as it sounds. But who knows!

[Jonesy]

Found some interesting tweets from Purgatory 3 Con in Germany--make of them what you will:

 

"Ruthie: Rowena was searching for a purpose this season.  But she thinks the Mega Coven is not dead yet.  She wants to explore that."

 

"Yesterday Kim said that they know they are the "B" team and now I hope she knows it stands for beautiful, badass and the best".

 

"Kim and Bri: something cool might be happening next season, stay loud.  We are not allowed to say anything else."

 

"We can't contractually can't tell you what would happen in a Jody and Donna spinoff."

 

 

 

 

So from the first tweet it seems like someone quoting Ruth as saying she wants to explore the Mega Coven next year--which would mean ROWENA is alive...if that is the right context for that quote.

 

The other 3 tweets tell us we are getting a bunch of Jody and gang...probably to set up a spinoff for SPN season 14.  Does seem they are pushing that.  I'm kind of MEH on Wayward Daughters. 

Edited May 29, 2017 by Jakes

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Jakes said:

Found some interesting tweets from Purgatory 3 Con in Germany--make of them what you will:

 

"Ruthie: Rowena was searching for a purpose this season.  But she thinks the Mega Coven is not dead yet.  She wants to explore that."

 

"Yesterday Kim said that they know they are the "B" team and now I hope she knows it stands for beautiful, badass and the best".

 

"Kim and Bri: something cool might be happening next season, stay loud.  We are not allowed to say anything else."

 

"We can't contractually can't tell you what would happen in a Jody and Donna spinoff."

 

 

 

 

So from the first tweet it seems like someone quoting Ruth as saying she wants to explore the Mega Coven next year--which would mean ROWENA is alive...if that is the right context for that quote.

 

The other 3 tweets tell us we are getting a bunch of Jody and gang...probably to set up a spinoff for SPN season 14.  Does seem they are pushing that.  I'm kind of MEH on Wayward Daughters. 

Maybe it would be web series on CW Seed to see if it does well and if so, when it's time for SPN to make it's final farewell, Wayward Daughters comes in to fill the void?

[MysteryGuest]

38 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Oh, but Mark did say it was time for something new:

I had honestly forgotten about that.  Then I'm back to square one of not having a clue.  

Can't say I'm all that excited about a Wayward Daughters spinoff.  Can't say I really want a spinoff of any kind, honestly.  I love Jody and Donna, but in the context of this show.  I don't know that I'd want to watch them on their own.  I think when Jensen and Jared call it a day, I'll probably do the same.  I've never been big on spinoffs, because they usually suck, with a few exceptions.  

[Idahoforspn]

4 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

 

Can't say I'm all that excited about a Wayward Daughters spinoff.  Can't say I really want a spinoff of any kind, honestly.  I love Jody and Donna, but in the context of this show.  I don't know that I'd want to watch them on their own.  I think when Jensen and Jared call it a day, I'll probably do the same.  I've never been big on spinoffs, because they usually suck, with a few exceptions.  

Not interested in a Jody and Donna spinoff in the slightest. When J2 hangs it up, I'm done too.

[gonzosgirrl]

Also no interest in a spin-off,'Wayward Daughters' or otherwise, though I feel that Dabb has been writing/steering the show towards a spin-off all season.

[Jonesy]

I guess people are still asking about him and SPN--so Mark tweeted today and made it crystal clear:

 

"One last time amigos.  Crowley's death is not a bit.  I have been honest and tried to avoid any confusion.  I will not be returning to SPN."

[DittyDotDot]

Maybe they're finally doing what I've been asking them to do for years? Not an honest-to-Chuck spin-off, but a mini-series event. Meaning a contained story spanning 3-5 episodes focusing on side characters to run during one of the hiatuses. I think there's gold to be mined still with some of their side characters, just not enough gold to sustain multiple seasons of 20-24 episodes.

You could do one with Jodi and Donna and the girls (Wayward Daughters); one with Bobby and Rufus (Grumpy Old Hunters); one with Kevin during that year he was on the run from Crowley (The Boy Prophet Saga); one of Ellen and Jo during the two years they were supposedly hunting together...so many possibilities, IMO. I think it could be fun filler for when the show is on hiatus.

[MysteryGuest]

16 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Maybe they're finally doing what I've been asking them to do for years? Not an honest-to-Chuck spin-off, but a mini-series event. Meaning a contained story spanning 3-5 episodes focusing on side characters to run during one of the hiatuses. I think there's gold to be mined still with some of their side characters, just not enough gold to sustain multiple seasons of 20-24 episodes.

Now small story arcs to run during the multiple hiatuses I could totally get behind.  Hiatuses are hell, but I just don't see the network spending the money for that.  All of their shows go on hiatus, don't they?  It's a damn good idea though.

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

Now small story arcs to run during the multiple hiatuses I could totally get behind.  Hiatuses are hell, but I just don't see the network spending the money for that.  All of their shows go on hiatus, don't they?  It's a damn good idea though.

I've been suggesting it for years, basically since Bloodlines tanked. I can't take full credit for it though--although, if they do it, I want royalties ;)--it's kinda a spin on the old web series idea that shows like Heroes and Battlestar Galactica did years ago. They were usually contained storylines that that tied into the main show, but also stood entirely on their own. They were generally only about the length of an episode delivered in 5-10 minute segments each week and designed to drive viewers to their websites. They didn't air on regular TV, but were only released on their websites and sometimes included on the DVDs.

Edited May 30, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[MysteryGuest]

22 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I've been suggesting it for years, basically since Bloodlines tanked. I can't take full credit for it though--although, if they do it, I want royalties ;)--it's kinda a spin on the old web series idea that shows like Heroes and Battlestar Galactica did years ago. They were usually contained storylines that that tied into the main show, but also stood entirely on their own. They were generally only about the length of an episode delivered in 5-10 minute segments each week and designed to drive viewers to their websites. They didn't air on regular TV, but were only released on their websites and sometimes included on the DVDs.

Even if they were only on the website, it would still be something to get you through the hiatus.  And it's a good way to test the waters to see if there's actually enough interest in doing any sort of spinoff.   

[Demented Daisy]

I don't understand why people are blaming the Lucifer storyline for Mark Sheppard's departure from the show.

Isn't it possible that they have known for months that Sheppard wanted to leave, which was the catalyst for the continued Lucifer storyline?  Isn't it possible that Pellegrino was elevated to regular as a replacement after the fact instead of before?

Isn't it possible that Jared, Jensen, and Misha have kept mum about Sheppard leaving the show because they feel hurt?  Maybe they didn't want him to go and don't want to make him look like a bad guy for wanting to move on?

Long story short (too late!), it's way, way, way too early to know what happened.  

Edited May 30, 2017 by Demented Daisy
Formatting is wonky. Trying to fix.

[Idahoforspn]

19 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

I don't understand why people are blaming the Lucifer storyline for Mark Sheppard's departure from the show.

Isn't it possible that they have known for months that Sheppard wanted to leave, which was the catalyst for the continued Lucifer storyline?  

If that were the case Mark S would have come right out and said it instead of letting the fan animosity start over a false premise so, IMO, not a chance. 

19 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

Isn'tit possible that Pellegrino was elevated to regular as a replacement after the fact instead of before?

 

Possible but not probable. He could have been hired after the original blowup, whatever that was, with Mark S.

19 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

Isn't it possible that Jared, Jensen, and Misha have kept mum about Sheppard leaving the show because they feel hurt?  Maybe they didn't want him to go and don't want to make him look like a bad guy for wanting to move on?

IMO, not a chance. They may not want him to go ( make that probably) but if there wasn't a whole lot of tension between Mark and the powers that be, IMO, they would have commented publicly if even just to be polite. Stars normally comment when a high profile costar leaves just for their personal PR whether they like the person or not.

19 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

Long story short (too late!), it's way, way, way too early to know what happened.  

Agreed that we don't know what happened but we do know it wasn't exactly friendly.

[Jonesy]

Bottom line we don't know what's up with Mark and we have no idea what communications have gone on behind the scenes with Mark and the show and Mark and his fellow cast mates.  It's all guesswork deep down.

[Pondlass1]

Mark will get another gig, no problemo.  They're maybe running with the Luci & Son story with no room for Crowley (although I think Crowley would have fitted in really well) and demoted Mark to semi-regular (pay drop).

I just hope Mark hopping on one foot was filmed before the kerfuffle.  I'd hate to think they made his character do that just for spite.

I've always been so proud that the set is a 'family'.  Maybe not so much now. 

Edited May 30, 2017 by Pondlass1

[The Morning Star]

1 hour ago, Pondlass1 said:

Mark will get another gig, no problemo.  They're maybe running with the Luci & Son story with no room for Crowley (although I think Crowley would have fitted in really well) and demoted Mark to semi-regular (pay drop).

I just hope Mark hoping on one foot was filmed before the kerfuffle.  I'd hate to think they made his character do that just for spite.

I've always been so proud that the set is a 'family'.  Maybe not so much now. 

Oh the set is probably a family, writers however aren't really a part of that set.

Sheppard's issues are probably with them.

[Idahoforspn]

8 minutes ago, The Morning Star said:

Oh the set is probably a family, writers however aren't really a part of that set.

Sheppard's issues are probably with them.

Showrunner and writers. The showrunner is responsible for guiding the storyline and the quality of the writing. IMO

[Geordiegirl1967]

18 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I've never been big on spinoffs, because they usually suck, with a few exceptions.  

Agreed - with the huge exception of Frasier which was IMO better than Cheers.

4 hours ago, Demented Daisy said:

Isn't it possible that they have known for months that Sheppard wanted to leave, which was the catalyst for the continued Lucifer storyline?  Isn't it possible that Pellegrino was elevated to regular as a replacement after the fact instead of before?

Hmm. I don't get the impression that Crowley being written out was even remotely Mark S's choice. Surely if he wanted to move on he wouldn't be so p***ed off and aggrieved - which he clearly is. It seems that he has unfollowed Misha, which seems a very pointed action to take. He still follows Jared and Jensen. 

19 hours ago, Jakes said:

I'm kind of MEH on Wayward Daughters. 

I am not too interested in a Supernatural spin off. I watch for Sam and Dean. Without them it is just like any other of a hundred fantasy types shows. I do however love Jody, Donna, Alex and Claire. I would be totally up for them being in more eps - maybe joined by Mary and Rowena. I am far more interested in their stories at this point than Cas's or Lucifer's. I would also love to see Bobby back. I am a big Jody/Bobby shipper!

[Wayward Son]

If Mark unfollowing Misha is an indication that whatever happened involved a dispute between Markand Misha I wonder if it could have been over the "and" credit Misha was upgraded to this year. Perhaps Mark felt put out by the fact Misha received the better credit when he is the bigger star outside of the show? 

Although if this is the case IMO within the show itself the "and" credit quite rightly went to Misha. He has been in more seasons than Mark ( 9 to Mark's 8), more episodes (101 (Including a directors role) to Mark's 69) and he has been a regular for more season (six - four consecutive ones to Mark's 3).

[Idahoforspn]

1 minute ago, Wayward Son said:

If Mark unfollowing Misha is an indication that whatever happened involved a dispute between Markand Misha

I really really really hope that isn't the case. I really really really don't want this to be a result of problems between cast members. :-(

[Aeryn13]

Quote

If Mark unfollowing Misha is an indication that whatever happened involved a dispute between Markand Misha I wonder if it could have been over the "and" credit Misha was upgraded to this year. Perhaps Mark felt put out by the fact Misha received the better credit when he is the bigger star outside of the show? 

But the credit thing has happened a while ago and I never got those vibes from Mark Sheppard until now.

Honestly, the "and" credit baffled me because in my understanding it gives someone equal standing to first billing. In which case, Jensen would have been demoted to third-billed.  

[Airmid]

22 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Me either. Not since the airing of the episode, really. It was the 'bye boys' that convinced me. It was a 'good death' for the character. I only wish it hadn't been completely overshadowed by the Cas fake-out, and that it had actually been effective in locking up Luci.

Same. In fact if they had made that 'bye boys' into a 'run boys' with an undertone to it, something that was obviously final, then had the boys jump through the rift as he took himself out and it all sealed up I would have been happy.

Honestly, did not need another Cas fake death in there. Unless it's Cas from the other verse for some reason and our Cas agreed to be on the other side of the rift to, I dunno, control Lucifer to keep the balance over there? 

The fact that the only reason Crowley won was because Mary slapped Lucifer around like a little bitch kind of takes the bite out of the whole self sacrifice thing/ final goodbye that was going on there, IMO. MMV on that one. 

22 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I still can't figure out why Cas went back through to kill Lucifer. He had NO reason to do it. I really wonder if Sproutifer was controlling Cas at that point and compelled him to kill Dear Old Dadifer which might be why Cas looked kind of surprised when he came back through the rift.

I can't say I'd be happy with that story but I have a feeling it's better than what we're going to get. If the Cas we get back is the one from the other verse, I will tear my hair out along with the Cas fans because they aren't the same being. 

My thought is that we're going to get "Cas was being stupidly heroic again and went boom" and then get this new and improved shiny Cas from other world that the writers/showrunner see as the same Cas as ours, shove him into the storyline, and Lucifer will be off wailing about his daddy issues and how he is now the absentee father (which is hilarious in a way), and Mary will be, I don't know, killing stuff while complaining how she can't connect to anyone even though she doesn't make any effort at all to do the same. Sproutifer will of course be totes evil because that's just how they think anymore and Dean and Sam will be guest stars in their own show.

Or Lucifer will understand the hardships of fatherhood through reuniting with Jack (snicker) and learn the errors of his way and be redeemed right before he dies saving the world.

I think I'm cynical after twelve years of this yet somehow there are still parts of the show that I love that wont let me leave. *cries*

[Airmid]

44 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

If Mark unfollowing Misha is an indication that whatever happened involved a dispute between Markand Misha I wonder if it could have been over the "and" credit Misha was upgraded to this year. Perhaps Mark felt put out by the fact Misha received the better credit when he is the bigger star outside of the show? 

I don't use Twitter very much (I keep on up what game devs say for the stuff I play and to argue with the electric company when the power goes out, heh) but hopefully that's a mistake. Otherwise, that's a public move in a day when people are bound to notice those weird little details and then report them to the world. 

50 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

I really really really hope that isn't the case. I really really really don't want this to be a result of problems between cast members. :-(

Same

[catrox14]

Sometimes looks are deceiving especially with Mark S. who is a bit of a troll with fans about Crowley's potential demise, hence our collective speculations about the cast and the SL for Lucifer. 

That said, it is a pretty big deal to have the 4th lead leave in such a strange manner as Mark S. Mark posting that his lines were cut, IMO implies there is some bad juju BTS. He's not doing creation cons anymore and he's telling Jim Michaels that it's not okay to get viewers hopes up that Crowley or Mark S are returning to SPN at any juncture.  IMO, if Mark were trolling he would say "I'll never tell" like he generally has done in the past.

AFAIK, Mark and Misha are both on year to year contracts as a series regulars.  I don't think they re-up for two years at a time like the boys do.

Let's say for the sake of argument that MP was brought in to replace MS when MS said he was leaving the show. The timeline doesn't match up for me given Lucifer's return was planned at the beginning of s11 since he was brought back corporeally in Mid season 11. Misha, Rick Springfield and President Jeff all played Lucifer for what what 13 episodes over the course of s11 and s12 as placeholders for Lucifer until MP was able to return in s12.

I just don't see the point in the writers dragging out Crowley's exit for two seasons if MS asked out at the beginning or during s11.  Maybe he was doing them a favor by sticking around to help get Lucifer into the storyline and the caveat was MS got to say how Crowley died, hence his terseness over the line he wrote being cut. 

But that seems rather unlikely to me. It makes more sense to me that Crowley was written out as Lucifer was being written so Mark S asked that Crowley have death by seppuku and Mark was expecting the line he wrote to be included. IMO, it makes more sense that Mark S was written out rather than asked out.

(and of course my caveat is that this could be the biggest bit of all time but it seems unlikely).

JMHO YMMV

Edited May 30, 2017 by catrox14

[MysteryGuest]

6 hours ago, Demented Daisy said:

I don't understand why people are blaming the Lucifer storyline for Mark Sheppard's departure from the show.

Isn't it possible that they have known for months that Sheppard wanted to leave, which was the catalyst for the continued Lucifer storyline?  Isn't it possible that Pellegrino was elevated to regular as a replacement after the fact instead of before?

Isn't it possible that Jared, Jensen, and Misha have kept mum about Sheppard leaving the show because they feel hurt?  Maybe they didn't want him to go and don't want to make him look like a bad guy for wanting to move on?

Long story short (too late!), it's way, way, way too early to know what happened.

I'm not necessarily blaming the Lucifer storyline for the departure of Mark Sheppard, but it certainly does appear as though the show has opted to continue that storyline into next season.  Obviously, we don't know what happened.  Mark could have wanted to leave and has no plans to ever come back, or the show runners could have told him they weren't extending his contract, which pissed him off, so he has no intention of coming back.  No one's talking but Mark, and he's really not saying much, other than it's not a fake death.

I can't imagine Jensen and Jared being hurt or angry with him for leaving, if it was his choice.  I can more see them being angry with management if it wasn't Mark's choice.   

Whatever the real story is, the blame for the fallout lies at Dabb's feet.  It was his choice to kill everyone off, and his choice to not make some public statement regarding Mark, now that we know he won't be back.  They've opened the door for all sorts of speculation and rumors.  If Mark is really going to Phoenix con, then I'm hoping that we get at least a bit more information.  Part of what makes this show fun to watch are the off-screen relationships between the cast.  I'd hate to have that become an issue, or even a perceived issue. 

Edited May 30, 2017 by MysteryGuest

[catrox14]

30 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

But the credit thing has happened a while ago and I never got those vibes from Mark Sheppard until now.

Honestly, the "and" credit baffled me because in my understanding it gives someone equal standing to first billing. In which case, Jensen would have been demoted to third-billed.  

This was my argument way back as well. It's why I kept saying all season that it was a kindness for Misha to be given the "and" credit because Castiel was being written out of the show. He still could be written out during the first half of s12.  Of course maybe Jensen really doesn't care about his billing as long as he's getting paid what he wants to be paid. 

[Idahoforspn]

11 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I'm not necessarily blaming the Lucifer storyline for the departure of Mark Sheppard, but it certainly does appear as though the show has opted to continue that storyline into next season.  Obviously, we don't know what happened.  Mark could have wanted to leave and has no plans to ever come back, or the show runners could have told him they weren't extending his contract, which pissed him off, so he has no intention of coming back.  No one's talking but Mark, and he's really not saying much, other than it's not a fake death.

I can't imagine Jensen and Jared being hurt or angry with him for leaving, if it was his choice.  I can more see them being angry with management if it wasn't Mark's choice.   

Whatever the real story is, the blame for the fallout lies at Dabb's feet.  It was his choice to kill everyone off, and his choice to not make some public statement regarding Mark, now that we know he won't be back.  They've opened the door for all sorts of speculation and rumors.  If Mark is really going to Phoenix con, then Im really hoping that we get at least a bit more information.  Part of what makes this show fun to watch is the off-screen relationships between the cast.  I'd hate to have that become an issue, or even a perceived issue. 

This

42 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

 

Honestly, the "and" credit baffled me because in my understanding it gives someone equal standing to first billing. In which case, Jensen would have been demoted to third-billed.  

I never noticed this so I looked it up. According to everything I found, the "and" gives Misha top billing over Jensen. Can I throw a temper tantrum now?

Edited May 30, 2017 by Idahoforspn

[Idahoforspn]

6 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

Oops

Edited May 30, 2017 by Idahoforspn

[gonzosgirrl]

I don't believe this is a bit anymore, nor any sort of power play on Mark's part. Sure, he's been telling fans at cons forever that Crowley is getting killed off, but always in his teasing way. One thing I'm absolutely sureof is that Mark loves and respects the fans. He's said it in no uncertain terms, and I believe him. I don't think he'd put his fans through this, let them defend him, etc., for a joke or at the show's behest (for some kind of gotcha in October). I know I'd lose respect for him if he did.

12 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

This

I never noticed this so I looked it up. According to everything I found, the "and" gives Misha top billing over Jensen. Can I throw a temper tantrum now?

There's a question for Jim Never-Found-A-Butt-I-Wouldn't-Kiss Michaels.

Of course he wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot pole, but it'd be fun to see him try.

Hey Jim, does "and Misha Collins" give him top billing over both Js, or only Jensen?

Edited May 30, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[Wayward Son]

1 hour ago, Idahoforspn said:

I really really really hope that isn't the case. I really really really don't want this to be a result of problems between cast members. :-(

 

31 minutes ago, Airmid said:

I don't use Twitter very much (I keep on up what game devs say for the stuff I play and to argue with the electric company when the power goes out, heh) but hopefully that's a mistake. Otherwise, that's a public move in a day when people are bound to notice those weird little details and then report them to the world. 

Same

 

Me too :( . Although this is sadly far from the case with fandom, there are simply too many hateful individuals for it to be true, I've always loved the idea that the whole #spnfamily thing was a reality for the current and former cast. It would be sad to think this was no longer the case. 

 

47 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

But the credit thing has happened a while ago and I never got those vibes from Mark Sheppard until now.

Honestly, the "and" credit baffled me because in my understanding it gives someone equal standing to first billing. In which case, Jensen would have been demoted to third-billed.  

 

13 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

This was my argument way back as well. It's why I kept saying all season that it was a kindness for Misha to be given the "and" credit because Castiel was being written out of the show. He still could be written out during the first half of s12.  Of course maybe Jensen really doesn't care about his billing as long as he's getting paid what he wants to be paid. 

Perhaps, in the eyes of the show, the fact that Misha doesn't appear in half the episodes (and thus doesn't get any billing for those episodes) is enough to balance out any superiority over Jensen's billing it would have given Misha under normal  circumstances. IMO even if the "and" credit is normally the better credit it's hard to consider Misha having a better billing than Jensen  when he doesn't get any credit for half the episode so. 

Alternatively, presumably with Jensen's blessing, he offered to take a pay cut in exchange for the "and" credit. That could explain why Misha was only in 11 episodes this year compared to the  13 he appeared in for seasons 11 and 12. IMO something like this is most likely! Cutting his episode order would have been strange move if the credit was supposed to be a message that Misha's role on the show was being elevated somehow.

[gonzosgirrl]

4 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

 

Me too :( . Although this is sadly far from the case with fandom, there are simply too many hateful individuals for it to be true, I've always loved the idea that the whole #spnfamily thing was a reality for the current and former cast. It would be sad to think this was no longer the case. 

 

 

Perhaps, in the eyes of the show, the fact that Misha doesn't appear in half the episodes (and thus doesn't get any billing for those episodes) is enough to balance out any superiority over Jensen's billing it would have given Misha under normal  circumstances. IMO even if the "and" credit is normally the better credit it's hard to consider Misha having a better billing than Jensen  when he doesn't get any credit for half the episode so. 

Alternatively, presumably with Jensen's blessing, he offered to take a pay cut in exchange for the "and" credit. That could explain why Misha was only in 11 episodes this year compared to the  13 he appeared in for seasons 11 and 12. IMO something like this is most likely! Cutting his episode order would have been strange move if the credit was supposed to be a message that Misha's role on the show was being elevated somehow.

But Jensen is still the co-star of the show, not Misha. There's a reason he's only in half the episodes, yet he still has the better billing in those he does. Jensen is just too easy going, as far as I'm concerned.

Edited May 30, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[Idahoforspn]

4 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

 

Me too :( . Although this is sadly far from the case with fandom, there are simply too many hateful individuals for it to be true, I've always loved the idea that the whole #spnfamily thing was a reality for the current and former cast. It would be sad to think this was no longer the case. 

 

 

Perhaps, in the eyes of the show, the fact that Misha doesn't appear in half the episodes (and thus doesn't get any billing for those episodes) is enough to balance out any superiority over Jensen's billing it would have given Misha under normal  circumstances. IMO even if the "and" credit is normally the better credit it's hard to consider Misha having a better billing than Jensen  when he doesn't get any credit for half the episode so. 

Alternatively, presumably with Jensen's blessing, he offered to take a pay cut in exchange for the "and" credit. That could explain why Misha was only in 11 episodes this year compared to the  13 he appeared in for seasons 11 and 12. IMO something like this is most likely! Cutting his episode order would have been strange move if the credit was supposed to be a message that Misha's role on the show was being elevated somehow.

When your a regular, your name appears in the credits whether you are in the episode or not. Anyway, that's what I've seen. It's guest stars or reoccurring characters that are only listed in episodes they are in I thought.

[DittyDotDot]

I personally believe Mark is just trying to manage the situation, but everyone has jumped to conclusions and blown the whole thing into something he didn't mean for it to be. I personally have not read disgruntlement in any of his comments:

• Him saying a line was cut doesn't say anything to me other than he liked the line and was disappointed it was cut. However, actors lines are cut all the time, I'd be surprised that Mark is actually disgruntled about it. Seems like a pretty silly thing for an actor to get worked up about and I have never considered Mark to be silly...well not that kind of silly, anyway.
• His tweet to Jim Michaels just said to me Sheppard was trying to contain the situation and not give fans false hope since so many folks were speculating they were trolling us. His tweet yesterday said the same thing to me.

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

This was my argument way back as well. It's why I kept saying all season that it was a kindness for Misha to be given the "and" credit because Castiel was being written out of the show. He still could be written out during the first half of s12.  Of course maybe Jensen really doesn't care about his billing as long as he's getting paid what he wants to be paid. 

As far as I know, it's not a "kindness" but part of contract negotiations. All the "and" says to me is Misha's representation did him right. I don't think it makes Misha equal to Jensen in billing, though, since Misha is only a series regular, not a lead.

I'd highly doubt Jensen gives a rat's ass about his billing though. He's far too classy for that sort of thing, if you ask me.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Alternatively, presumably with Jensen's blessing, he offered to take a pay cut in exchange for the "and" credit. That could explain why Misha was only in 11 episodes this year compared to the  13 he appeared in for seasons 11 and 12.

Management would probably kill an actor over such stupidity. I only half-kid, billing order is the stuff of cuththroat negotiations. You go up but not truly down. And anyone who gives that up has no place in that business.  

Edited May 30, 2017 by Aeryn13

[Airmid]

5 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

But Jensen is still the co-star of the show, not Misha. There's a reason he's only in half the episodes. Jensen is just too easy going, as far as I'm concerned.

Probably. My line of thought on it is that if Jensen don't care then why should I get ruffled up about it? I would think, given his popularity with the fans  and success, that if it was a true concern TPTB would give him different billing during contract time if asked for.

[Idahoforspn]

6 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

When your a regular, your name appears in the credits whether you are in the episode or not. Anyway, that's what I've seen. It's guest stars or reoccurring characters that are only listed in episodes they are in I thought.

I just pulled up an episode Cas wasn't in  because I wanted to make sure as I usually don't pay any attention to credits. Misha does not show on the credits so I WAS WRONG. SORRY!!

9 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

 

I'd highly doubt Jensen gives a rat's ass about his billing though. He's far too classy for that sort of thing, if you ask me.

Even if he doesn't, his agent sure should. Plus, credits affect future jobs and future pay so I hope Jensen cares. He seems pretty career savy.

[Wayward Son]

12 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

 But Jensen is still the co-star of the show, not Misha. There's a reason he's only in half the episodes. Jensen is just too easy going, as far as I'm concerned.

 IMO the "and" shouldn't even be a factor for Jensen. What I mean is that IMO the billing should be 

 

Starring

Jared Padalecki and Jensen Ackles (a joint first billing that indicates their equal role on the show. The "and" credit is still secondary to a first billing) 

Mark Pellegrino  (assuming he is still a regular next year) 

And Misha Collins (again assuming he Is still a regular) 

 

The fact that Jensen has been happy to allow Jared to maintain the first billing for twelve years suggests that billing placement isn't something that Jensen is overly concerned with. So I could easily him allowing it if Misha expressed that he wanted the billing and was even willing to take an episode / pay cut in order to gain it. Of course as @catrox14 said, and I too have speculated in the past, perhaps it was a one season courtesy to Misha before they write him out of the show (at worst) or reduce him back to a guest star for season thirteen.

Either way I really don't see it as being a potential source of amnosity between Jensen and Misha. However, perhaps it was something that annoyed Mark since he's a far better  known actor than Misha outside the SPN verse. 

 

10 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Management would probably kill an actor over such stupidity. I only half-kid, billing order is the stuff of cuththroat negotiations. You go up but not truly down. And anyone who gives that up has no place in that business.  

But what if Misha wanted it and it was management  who gave him the choice "you can have the billing but in exchange you will have to take a episode / pay cut". Perhaps Misha decided that having a "and" credit in his resume was worth more in the long term than the salary for two episodes. 

 

5 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

I just pulled up an episode Cas wasn't in  because I wanted to make sure as I usually don't pay any attention to credits. Misha does not show on the credits so I WAS WRONG. SORRY!!

Yes Misha, Mark S and Mark P are only credited for the episodes they actually appear in. That's why I was saying IMO if they appeared in all episodes, or at least were credited for them, it would be easy to say Misha has the superior billing. However, I personally find it hard to truly consider Misha's billing as better than Jensen's when he receives NO billing for more than half the episodes..

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I'd highly doubt Jensen gives a rat's ass about his billing though. He's far too classy for that sort of thing, if you ask me.

Jensen might not care on a personal friend level but I'd be pretty surprised if his representation didn't care when it comes to contract negotiations. Maybe J2 both gave their blessings for Misha to have the 'and' credit because maybe they think he deserves to be considered a lead alongside them. Maybe it wasn't a kindness and Misha fought for that expecting that Cas would be written out. Maybe it was something Misha wanted in exchange for less episodes. I dunno

Bottom line, is that kind of change does not happen willy nilly and it is significant. That said,  I don't think Misha's "and" credit has anything to do with Mark's departure and the Twitter brouhaha with Michaels. IMO those are completely separate things.