Spoilers With Speculation

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

As Sterling K Brown is now one of the hottest and most in demand actors working in TV at the moment (with This is Us and the OJ Simpson Story under his belt) I highly doubt he'll be back to SPN any time soon. Though I do like to think we gave him his big break 

I think he is on good terms with the actors and show runners still. They could maybe get him for a cameo of some kind, if they can afford him now.  That would be great because I always wanted to see Dean and Gordon cross paths again.  I loved Jensen and Sterling's chemistry in their scenes, especially Hunted. 

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Sorry to hear that.

Thank you :). I just keep in mind, that she lived a good, long life and by the end she was suffering and now she is not.

[DeansDorkyAngel]

Ok, let me throw in my 2 cents about the whole finale and speculations.  

1.  I don't think that mysterious figure is Gabriel or John or Benny. I think it's Bobby. Jim said that maybe for s13 he will have a job to do which makes me think that he meant he was only shown for only a few seconds and he didn't have much to do on screen.

2.  I think it's Cas dying in the finale. He dies and is sent to the Empty where he sees Bobby, who was sent there as his punishment in heaven.  If Misha was really emotional and he was thinking about cancelling Jib con this is huge! Plus he said in his tweet that he was the only who had to shoot scenes.  I think he dies and we see him in the empty!

Just my 2 cents.

[rue721]

32 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

It'd be very costly to reshoot the sequences with a different actor and there's also the cost of hiring another actor.

True, but if this is a storyline that they are unwilling to scrap because it's going to play a major role in S13, then I can see them deciding that they will save time and money in the long run if they do it with an actor that they can count on being available for the foreseeable. (Hell, they might save significant production insurance money that way, too). Better to recast/reshoot the first scene or two of the storyline than be constantly renegotiating, reworking or even ultimately be forced to scrap huge amounts of footage during the production of S13.

Also, I don't know how their budgeting works, but if this is an actor/scenes that they're using for S13, maybe they can pull from S13's budget to clean up this (hypothetical) problem right now, too -- and any way to tap into S13's budget seems like it would be pretty tempting, since they're probably at the dregs of S12's budget but still have a basically untouched S13 budget to work with.

But all that said, if Tim's doing as well as everyone's saying, then I think they would probably just risk it.

Plus, they are pretty likely to have already filmed all the (hypothetical) Cain scenes in the Empty that they even would have wanted in the first place, seeing as they've already shot some of S13.

Anyway -- I also don't really want anybody's father or father-figure (aka, John or Bobby) showing up at the end of S12, because that seems pretty redundant. Like, every season finale they're going to get a dead parent back now? LOL.

You all know by now that I love John as a character and would dearly love to have him back on the show (just think about what a wrench in the works having him around would be -- for pretty much the ENTIRE cast! His relationship with pretty much every single character on this show is really complex, and I would love to see him interact with any/all of them) (!!!) -- but even I would be kind of aggravated by a straight up repeat of S11's cliffhanger.

16 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

As Sterling K Brown is now one of the hottest and most in demand actors working in TV at the moment (with This is Us and the OJ Simpson Story under his belt) I highly doubt he'll be back to SPN any time soon. Though I do like to think we gave him his big break 

Yeah, Gordon showing up is just a wish, not a prediction. I do love Gordon, though -- if we could get him back for a cameo or really ANYTHING, I would love it :)

1 minute ago, DeansDorkyAngel said:

2.  I think it's Cas dying in the finale. He dies and is sent to the Empty where he sees Bobby, who was sent there as his punishment in heaven.  If Misha was really emotional and he was thinking about cancelling Jib con this is huge! Plus he said in his tweet that he was the only who had to shoot scenes.  I think he dies and we see him in the empty!

I do think that we see Cas in the Empty. It looked like that's where he was in the preview. Is that where angels and demons go when they get the knife and "burn out"?! I would love to know what happens to them then, so it would be fascinating to find out that that's where they end up.

Also, I am sorry to hear about so many people having strokes. That's terrible. Twice, I've seen my grandma have a stroke in front of me, and both times were really frightening and awful. She didn't really recover from either, but what's recovery when you're over eighty. Nature can be pretty cruel.

[DeansDorkyAngel]

Guys, Misha wasn't in Australia! Maybe he said it at a different con? 

Edited May 13, 2017 by DeansDorkyAngel

[catrox14]

4 hours ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

I doubt Cas will be written out. However he has apparently said to fans at his Australia m&g that he was

Are you thinking of Asylum which he's doing right now? He didn't go to Australia this time.

[ZennyKenny]

It's sad that part of me thinks that this person who Cas said "You" to is just some angel that we've never seen before in order to set up a random antagonist for the next season.

[Demented Daisy]

I assumed it was Crowley -- Lucifer told them that he killed Crowley personally, blah blah blah.  So, surprise!  Crowley isn't dead!  Shock!  Amazement!  Disbelief!

'Cause, you know, they've never done that before.

[ZennyKenny]

5 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

I assumed it was Crowley -- Lucifer told them that he killed Crowley personally, blah blah blah.  So, surprise!  Crowley isn't dead!  Shock!  Amazement!  Disbelief!

'Cause, you know, they've never done that before.

You know... I try not to let the show get to me anymore, because there's just so much stupid everywhere now, but...

How hard would it have been to have Lucifer actually NOTICE that there was no light when he stabbed Crowley? Then he could have looked around at his minions and angrily said "FIND HIM!" and the outcome would have still been the same.

But no, it's more fun to insult the intelligence of the viewers and have a supposedly smart character look recklessly unobservant.

[rue721]

To be fair, I can believe that Lucifer is too arrogant and self-involved to even notice whether he had successfully stabbed Crowley to death or not.

[ZennyKenny]

16 minutes ago, rue721 said:

To be fair, I can believe that Lucifer is too arrogant and self-involved to even notice whether he had successfully stabbed Crowley to death or not.

I suppose that's true.

[Geordiegirl1967]

1 hour ago, DeansDorkyAngel said:

Guys, Misha wasn't in Australia! Maybe he said it at a different con? 

My fault. I assumed that cos the person said 'a recent con' and latest was in Aus. I've made an ass of u and me ?

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, ZennyKenny said:

It's sad that part of me thinks that this person who Cas said "You" to is just some angel that we've never seen before in order to set up a random antagonist for the next season.

Well, now you have me thinking it's Asmondeus

[SueB]

2 hours ago, rue721 said:

I do think that we see Cas in the Empty. It looked like that's where he was in the preview. Is that where angels and demons go when they get the knife and "burn out"?! I would love to know what happens to them then, so it would be fascinating to find out that that's where they end up.

While I think "the Empty" is a good guess, it's not just Cas.  It's Sam, Dean, Cas, Mary and Lucifer in that location. But there are at least three distinct "moments". 1) A "discovery' moment where the Winchesters all are looking at something in shock. And Lucifer is looking at something with the usual smarmy face.
2) Some fighting -- Dean going full-on rage w/ the automatic rifle, Cas leaving Sam and Dean behind to charge at Lucifer
3) Cas, laying on the ground, being approached by Mystery Man.

 

Now, it's possible that Cas is "left behind" -- while doing something to get Sam, Dean, and Mary home. Or Lucifer leaves his butt there and for inexplicable reasons takes the Winchesters with him as he departs.  THAT kind of scenario make sense.

Also... what if they don't tell us who Mystery Man is ......it could be Random Stuntguy #3 until next season.  

[MysteryGuest]

The mystery man looks a lot like Bobby's physique to me, so my money's on him.  Plus, I'd love it if he came back.  

The scene with Dean crying has me very concerned.  If they plan to kill of Mary, I can't see them showing that scene.  I think maybe they want us to think that's why he's crying.  Since we know we get little Dean in this episode (no, not that little Dean!), maybe he's reliving her death from when he was a young boy and that's why he's crying.  There's obviously some sort of flashback scene, so I'm going with that.  I really don't want them to kill Mary off this season, so I won't even entertain that thought for now.

I don't know what to make of Misha's comments, if he really said that.  If he's really left in The Empty, then they can bring him back at any time.  But for him to say it's too sad makes me concerned that either he really is leaving, or someone else like maybe Jody gets killed.  She's been around a while, and most characters don't last that long.  I will absolutely hate it, but it's possible.  Or maybe it's Rowena?  I know they all love Ruth, so that would be a big loss for them.  I don't want them to kill her, either.  I'm annoyed that Dabb thinks getting back to basics means killing off all the likable characters.  It's a cheap way to get a response.  God forbid they actually try writing an exciting and unique Big Bad instead.  

The end scene of Lucifer in the last episode was just too much.  Are people really that interested in him?  I swear he's had more screen time this season than Sam or Dean.  I so want his storyline to be the one that gets wrapped up, but again, I think he's a lazy go to for Dabb and the writers, so I doubt that will happen.  He stopped being scary back in season 5, and in season 6, while it was fun for a bit, he became downright annoying.  Now I can't even watch the scenes he's in.  And I love Crowley, but he's really pathetic and stupid when he's around Lucifer.  I so much prefer his snarky self when he's interacting with Dean, Sam or Cas.  

Edited May 14, 2017 by MysteryGuest

[Demented Daisy]

2 hours ago, rue721 said:

To be fair, I can believe that Lucifer is too arrogant and self-involved to even notice whether he had successfully stabbed Crowley to death or not.

Hubris.  It'll get the bad guy every time.

Which I expect to be the downfall of both Lucifer and the BMoL this season.  And who's the only one who hasn't underestimated those denim-clad nightmares?  ;-)

[Idahoforspn]

7 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

 

The end scene of Lucifer in the last episode was just too much.  Are people really that interested in him?  I swear he's had more screen time this season than Sam or Dean.  I so want his storyline to be the one that gets wrapped up, but again, I think he's a lazy go to for Dabb and the writers, so I doubt that will happen.  He stopped being scary back in season 5, and in season 6, while it was fun for a bit, he became downright annoying.  Now I can't even watch the scenes he's in.  And I love Crowley, but he's really pathetic and stupid when he's around Lucifer.  I so much prefer his snarky self when he's interacting with Dean, Sam or Cas.  

This. Please kill Lucifer! (But I bet it's Mary who I would keep if given the choice between the two)

[Geordiegirl1967]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

I don't know what to make of Misha's comments, if he really said that.  If he's really left in The Empty, then they can bring him back at any time.  But for him to say it's too sad makes me concerned that either he really is leaving

He didn't say HE was sad (though he may be). He said he was tempted to cancel because he couldn't face the emotional reaction of the fans. 

I am only repeating what someone in his m&g said Misha said of course, so this is second hand info. 

[Mick Lady]

9 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Thank you :). I just keep in mind, that she lived a good, long life and by the end she was suffering and now she is not.

I remember when your Mom died. Again, I'm so sorry. That past few years have been hell for you!

BTW, how's the arm?

On topic; I hope Cas isn't sent to "The Empty" I like the actor too much! But no one ever truly dies on Supernatural, right? I'm still hoping for Bobby's return!

I also would hate for Jodi to die! My favorite spin-off is her and Donna together. Rowena dying would kill me! I hate that pic of Luci holding that hair though, sure looks like Rowena's, damn it!

I'm hoping Luci dies, and Cas takes over raising his "Spawn" I'm so sick of Luci, I just want him gone!

Another idea for the "Mystery Man", how about Metatron?

[AwesomO4000]

11 minutes ago, Mick Lady said:

Another idea for the "Mystery Man", how about Metatron?

Oooh, I would actually love that! *Ducks in case of flying tomatoes.*

[Jonesy]

Now everyone is getting me paranoid about losing Cas/Misha--that would totally suck.  Especially with what Misha supposedly said in the meet and greet.   This is getting aggravating.

Doesn't Lucifer have a red strand of hair in one of the photos--Rowena dead?

[Idahoforspn]

24 minutes ago, Mick Lady said:

I remember when your Mom died. Again, I'm so sorry. That past few years have been hell for you!

BTW, how's the arm?

On topic; I hope Cas isn't sent to "The Empty" I like the actor too much! But no one ever truly dies on Supernatural, right? I'm still hoping for Bobby's return!

I also would hate for Jodi to die! My favorite spin-off is her and Donna together. Rowena dying would kill me! I hate that pic of Luci holding that hair though, sure looks like Rowena's, damn it!

I'm hoping Luci dies, and Cas takes over raising his "Spawn" I'm so sick of Luci, I just want him gone!

Another idea for the "Mystery Man", how about Metatron?

Luci is at the top of the list of characters I want gone. Actually, he IS my list.

[MysteryGuest]

18 hours ago, Mick Lady said:

I hate that pic of Luci holding that hair though, sure looks like Rowena's, damn it!

I'm hoping that since they're showing us that pic, Rowena doesn't really die.  Otherwise, they're giving away a pretty big plot line.  I'm trying to remain as optimistic as possible while waiting to see just who the show decides to kill off this week.  The only character I want dead is Lucifer, so I'm with you there!

Edited May 14, 2017 by MysteryGuest

[rue721]

8 minutes ago, Jakes said:

Doesn't Lucifer have a red strand of hair in one of the photos--Rowena dead?

The lock of hair seems to me like it's for a spell. Even if he did kill Rowena, what would he want a lock of her hair for if not for magic stuff?

My best guess is that it's related to Crowley somehow. Like Lucifer has realized that Crowley isn't dead and he's trying to bait him or kill him by proxy (or something) using Rowena.

I have to hope that what Lucifer does that makes us hate him so much more (according to Mark Pellegrino) does not have to do with Rowena, though. I don't want to see him rape her or drag her around in chains or kill her or whatever else he might do to her (again). Rowena is a horrible person, possibly the worst person ever, but something about her is also so spunky and hopeful that I don't really like seeing her crushed, let alone by Lucifer of all people, spoiled and whiny brat that he is.

[Jonesy]

I'm digging around for tweets:

 

Someone has Misha saying get ready for some Wing action.  That could be cool but also could mean death of an angel.  Kim says she SURVIVES the finale.  Also is quoted as saying, "Everyone will have a reaction to the finale this year.  Lots and lots of feelings will happen."  Immediately after Kim says that she quickly adds--"But hey there might be something cool happening next season."  Hmm...that gives me some hope if something bad happens to a character such as Cas, maybe it's NOT permanent.  Something cool--John coming back?  The baby acting good?  A character surviving a finale trauma?  Hmmm.

Edited May 14, 2017 by Jakes

[nightwing877]

5 hours ago, Jakes said:

I'm digging around for tweets:

 

Someone has Misha saying get ready for some Wing action.  That could be cool but also could mean death of an angel.  Kim says she SURVIVES the finale.  Also is quoted as saying, "Everyone will have a reaction to the finale this year.  Lots and lots of feelings will happen."  Immediately after Kim says that she quickly adds--"But hey there might be something cool happening next season."  Hmm...that gives me some hope if something bad happens to a character such as Cas, maybe it's NOT permanent.  Something cool--John coming back?  The baby acting good?  A character surviving a finale trauma?  Hmmm.

Well I would love if Bobby came back, just because I would love to see him and Jody reunite. If John seriously came back, It would probably involve Mary meeting him. But JDM isn't coming back, at this rate it will be the final episode. But if Mary died a second time, could be John helping her back into the afterlife. 

Wondering if nobody actually dies, but they could well pull a season 2, and have someone dying in the first episode back. Maybe Mary's death is pushed to the opening of season 13 instead. 

Also is it confirmed 100% that Rowena is in the season final, or just episode 23? Is Jody just in 22 and not 23. Because I was surprised that Rowena has been MIA for the second half of season 12, so I am sure she would be back for the final. 

[DittyDotDot]

33 minutes ago, nightwing877 said:

Also is it confirmed 100% that Rowena is in the season final, or just episode 23? Is Jody just in 22 and not 23. Because I was surprised that Rowena has been MIA for the second half of season 12, so I am sure she would be back for the final. 

As far as I know, Ruth Connell (Rowena) has not been confirmed for either episode 22 or 23. People are just speculating based on the lock of red hair Luci has in one of the photos. Kim Rhodes (Jodi) is confirmed in episode 22.

 

Here's an updated spoiler sheet for the upcoming finale episodes from: http://ibelieveinthelittletreetopper.tumblr.com/post/147242139088/supernatural-season-12-spoiler-sheet. 

Episode 12x22     Who We Are

• OFFICIAL SYNOPSIS:  FAMILY – Caught in a dangerous situation, Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles) only have each other to rely on. Meanwhile, the fight between the American Hunters and the British Hunters comes to a head. John Showalter directed the episode written by Robert Berens (#1222). Original airdate 5/18/2017.
• Written by: Robert Berens /  Director:  John Showalter
• Filming Dates: April 4 - April 13 / Airdate: May 18 (preceding finale)
• Castiel? Possibly. Crowley? No.
• Guest stars: Samantha Smith (Mary), David Haydn Jones (Arthur Ketch), Kim Rhodes (Jody Mills),  Elizabeth Blackmore (Toni Bevell), Katherine Ramdeen (Alex Jones), Anthony Bolongese (Youg Dean), Nels Lennarson (Walt), Chelsea Gill (Paige), Courtney Ford (Kelly Kline), 
• This episode will focus more on wrapping up the BMoL and the finale will focus on the Nephilim

Episode 12x23  All Along the Watchtower

• OFFICIAL SYNOPSIS:  EPIC SEASON FINALE – Lucifer (Mark Pellegrino) battles Sam (Jared Padalecki), Dean (Jensen Ackles) and Castiel (Misha Collins) for control of his unborn child. Robert Singer directed the episode written by Andrew Dabb (#1223). Original airdate 5/18/2017.
• Written by: Andrew Dabb / Director:  Robert Singer
• Filming Dates: April 14 - April 27 / Airdate: May 18, 9pm (following 12x22 at 8pm)
• Castiel? Yes. Crowley?  Yes.
• Guest stars: Samantha Smith (Mary Winchester), Mark Pellegrino (Lucifer), Courtney Ford (Kelly Kline)
• The focus of the episode will be on the Nephilim storyline.

[Wayward Son]

42 minutes ago, nightwing877 said:

Also is it confirmed 100% that Rowena is in the season final, or just episode 23? Is Jody just in 22 and not 23. Because I was surprised that Rowena has been MIA for the second half of season 12, so I am sure she would be back for the final. 

Rowena hasn't been confirmed for either episode. Unless Ruth makes a surprise appearance we may not see her again until next season. And Jody has been confirmed for episode 22 just. Although I wouldn't worry too much about that. I don't think she has ever appeared in two episodes in a row.

ETA: What @DittyDotDot said

Edited May 14, 2017 by Wayward Son

[DittyDotDot]

44 minutes ago, nightwing877 said:

Wondering if nobody actually dies, but they could well pull a season 2, and have someone dying in the first episode back. Maybe Mary's death is pushed to the opening of season 13 instead. 

I'm still not convinced they're killing Mary. I'm not sure there's really time for a proper wrap up and goodbye this season. And, I kinda think they've invested in Mary and may have greater plans for her than just another "shocking" death

Edited May 14, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[ILoveReading]

On 2017-05-13 at 5:10 AM, Aeryn13 said:

I would love for it to be Benny but there is really no way I see that happening.

Bobby, yes, that`s a lot more likely. I guess I didn`t think of him because I find the idea anticlimactic and lame. Why did he turn into the lonesome warriror? What is he gonna bring to this final fight? That gun? His randomely popping up Gary Stu powers? Sam and Mary are already there so that is getting really overcrowded.

And I can never see Bobby laying into Mary. If anyone gets a "boohoo princess" speech, it won`t be her. It will be someone who names has four letters and starts with a D.   

If it`s an ally figure, it makes sense why Dean seems to use the same gun later on.  

As for the fight in the bunker, you can`t see who Ketch is fighting. Just Lady Deadeyes behind him, Ketch bloodied and with a knife and then sailing through the air. Since Dean is in a vulnerable position aka in the spell, Ketch probably is about to stab him, Mary "wakes" up and then tosses him through the air. This is the most likely scenario for this show.

I`d much rather see Dean in the action than sitting in a chair, trying to reach Mary some more. I feel like he has been doing that all over the Season. Hopefully he is at least involved in planning and getting the other hunters together, if not in the actually exciting set pieces. 

Yes, to all of this.   If it is Bobby I can see him siding with Mary and chastising Dean for putting to much pressure on Mary to make him cookies and tuck him in.

As for the fight, I also believe it will also be Mary/Ketch.  I'm thinking when Dean is under whatever spell, he can't react to the things around him.  Ketch probably shows up, gets in a few punches for calling him a dick and insulting his motor cycle, maybe even breaks his leg.  Then Mary will save him as the show's way of redeeming her. I wouldn't be surprised if we get Dean thanking Mary for looking out for him.

It's disappointing that Dean talking about the deal seems to be more about saving Mary than just an honest conversation between him and a Mary. 

I find on this show what you see is what you get.  So if Dean isn't in the actions scenes during the promos, there is a good chance he isn't there, (although, I'd love to be wrong about that) or he shows up after everything is said and done. 

Although if the episode ends with Bobby taking Little Lucifer off to the empty to raise him and we never see or hear of either character again, that would be good.

If that is the empty, it looks like Purgatory for humans.

Edited May 14, 2017 by ILoveReading

[nightwing877]

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

Rowena hasn't been confirmed for either episode. Unless Ruth makes a surprise appearance we may not see her again until next season. And Jody has been confirmed for episode 22 just. Although I wouldn't worry too much about that. I don't think she has ever appeared in two episodes in a row.

ETA: What @DittyDotDot said

Thanks for that. No Jody has never been in two episodes in a row I believe.

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

As far as I know, Ruth Connell (Rowena) has not been confirmed for either episode 22 or 23. People are just speculating based on the lock of red hair Luci has in one of the photos. Kim Rhodes (Jodi) is confirmed in episode 22.

 

Here's an updated spoiler sheet for the upcoming finale episodes from: http://ibelieveinthelittletreetopper.tumblr.com/post/147242139088/supernatural-season-12-spoiler-sheet. 

Episode 12x22     Who We Are

• OFFICIAL SYNOPSIS:  FAMILY – Caught in a dangerous situation, Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles) only have each other to rely on. Meanwhile, the fight between the American Hunters and the British Hunters comes to a head. John Showalter directed the episode written by Robert Berens (#1222). Original airdate 5/18/2017.
• Written by: Robert Berens /  Director:  John Showalter
• Filming Dates: April 4 - April 13 / Airdate: May 18 (preceding finale)
• Castiel? Possibly. Crowley? No.
• Guest stars: Samantha Smith (Mary), David Haydn Jones (Arthur Ketch), Kim Rhodes (Jody Mills),  Elizabeth Blackmore (Toni Bevell), Katherine Ramdeen (Alex Jones), Anthony Bolongese (Youg Dean), Nels Lennarson (Walt), Chelsea Gill (Paige), Courtney Ford (Kelly Kline), 
• This episode will focus more on wrapping up the BMoL and the finale will focus on the Nephilim

Episode 12x23  All Along the Watchtower

• OFFICIAL SYNOPSIS:  EPIC SEASON FINALE – Lucifer (Mark Pellegrino) battles Sam (Jared Padalecki), Dean (Jensen Ackles) and Castiel (Misha Collins) for control of his unborn child. Robert Singer directed the episode written by Andrew Dabb (#1223). Original airdate 5/18/2017.
• Written by: Andrew Dabb / Director:  Robert Singer
• Filming Dates: April 14 - April 27 / Airdate: May 18, 9pm (following 12x22 at 8pm)
• Castiel? Yes. Crowley?  Yes.
• Guest stars: Samantha Smith (Mary Winchester), Mark Pellegrino (Lucifer), Courtney Ford (Kelly Kline)
• The focus of the episode will be on the Nephilim storyline.

Aww thanks. 

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

I'm still not convinced they're killing Mary. I'm not sure there's really time for a proper wrap up and goodbye this season. And, I kinda think they've invested in Mary and may have greater plans for her than just another "shocking" death

I hope so, because If she died it would just be typical and what we expected and Sam and Dean going through her death and suffering again is too much. They have invested so much in her, she practically got her own solo storyline this season with the BMOL. 

Still waiting for Rowena and Mary to meet. 

I would be cool if she dies at the end of season 13. At least keeping her alive for 2 seasons doesn't make it feel so quick and we get some material. Great way to set-up season 14 (if it is the final season and ends at 300 at they hope for getting to 300 and maybe ending it here) and going back to the beginning with Mary's death being a big part of the story like the Pilot. Just me speculating for fun here.  

[MysteryGuest]

It makes sense that Jody's only in 22, since that's the hunter vs. BMOL episode.  I'm surprised she would say that she survives the season, but I'll be happy if it's true.

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I'm still not convinced they're killing Mary. I'm not sure there's really time for a proper wrap up and goodbye this season. And, I kinda think they've invested in Mary and may have greater plans for her than just another "shocking" death

Yes, totally agree with this.  I'm hoping Dabb sees it the same way.  

It's strange that they would show Rowena's hair, and not Rowena.  I can't imagine they would kill her off screen, so it makes me hopeful that the spell idea might be right.  We know that Crowley gets out, but I'd like that to be a surprise for Lucifer.  I would love for Crowley to realize that the only good Lucifer is a dead Lucifer, and that he comes to the aid of Sam, Dean and Cas to finish him off.  I know it won't happen, but I can fantasize about it until Thursday.

[catrox14]

Quote

Nels Lennarson (Walt),

Walt? I checked IMDB and it is the same Walt that killed Sam and Dean for real in DSOTM. And talk about a dropped plot point. Like that should have been someone Dean or better yet Soulless Sam went after in s6, or even demon!Dean in s10 alas.

That's a peculiar character to bring back. Show, don't make that be someone Dean and Sam feel bad for being killed by the BMOL if there is any chance he's the bloodied hunter.  That fucker murdered them both. Although I would totally be on board him being an ally of the BMOL and Sam's face of emotion is that he remembered that he's one of the dudes that killed him and Dean, so he's flooded with memories and kills him "accidentally in the accidents don't just happen accidentally way in the battle with the BMOL. Ha, sure,fat chance that happens.

I've been wondering if Cole is going to show up as an ally of the BMOL. I could see him doing that because he was Mr. Military before hunting down Sam. Maybe we'll see Sam put a bullet in his ass at long last. 

 

I'm wondering about Ketch being tossed about the LOL. Given there is one picture of Dean with a bloody face and he looks IMO not unlike angry MoC!Dean or angry demon!Dean, I'm wondering if maybe that procedure Dean is under triggers some latent demon powers that he never got to use as demon Dean and he psychically tosses Ketch around the room because he's trying to kill Mary. Again fat chance that happens.

Another  thought I have is that Dean remembers going back in time and revealing to Azazel that he kills him in the future and then takes on the blame for EVERYTHING to give Mary redemption since some think Dean is really why Azazel got onto Mary in the first place and this is really entirely his fault because he tried to stop it from happening so it made it happen. Hmmm

Speaking of that procedure, my worst fear is that it is going to be used to make canon  Lemming's long standing view that Dean is nothing more than a killer at heart "It's in his DNA to be a killer" - Eugenie Ross-Leming from Blade Runners audio commentary.  I wouldn't put it past Dabb et al, to just make that canon by having Dean remember that he killed a human whilst not under supernatural influence.  Or GODS FORBID that Dean tried to do something terrible to Sammy as a little boy. I'm not being wanky here either.  I just really have a bad feeling  that nothing good is going to come from that for Dean. 

[rue721]

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Walt? I checked IMDB and it is the same Walt that killed Sam and Dean for real in DSOTM. And talk about a dropped plot point. Like that should have been someone Dean or better yet Soulless Sam went after in s6, or even demon!Dean in s10 alas.

Damn, that was such a good teaser. I had forgotten about it.

Here it is, for your viewing pleasure:

I love Dean in that scene. Love that he's all polite with his "morning" (as he's reaching under the pillow for the gun). And love "when I come back, I'm gonna be pissed." And just how pissed off he seems in general!

Jensen's accent is SO STRONG in that, though. I've gotten used to the artificially gravelly voice, but the accent still throws me sometimes.

Anyway though, I don't really hold anything against Roy and Walt. It's not like they were committing murder for the hell of it. They're hunters and they justified themselves (pretty reasonably IMO) that they were hunting the "thing" that started the apocalypse. I mean, it sucks and isn't the choice I would make and blah blah -- but it was all business and not really grounds for a personal vendetta IMO.

[Idahoforspn]

33 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Walt? I checked IMDB and it is the same Walt that killed Sam and Dean for real in DSOTM. And talk about a dropped plot point. Like that should have been someone Dean or better yet Soulless Sam went after in s6, or even demon!Dean in s10 alas.

That's a peculiar character to bring back. Show, don't make that be someone Dean and Sam feel bad for being killed by the BMOL if there is any chance he's the bloodied hunter.  That fucker murdered them both. Although I would totally be on board him being an ally of the BMOL and Sam's face of emotion is that he remembered that he's one of the dudes that killed him and Dean, so he's flooded with memories and kills him "accidentally in the accidents don't just happen accidentally way in the battle with the BMOL. Ha, sure,fat chance that happens.

I've been wondering if Cole is going to show up as an ally of the BMOL. I could see him doing that because he was Mr. Military before hunting down Sam. Maybe we'll see Sam put a bullet in his ass at long last. 

 

I'm wondering about Ketch being tossed about the LOL. Given there is one picture of Dean with a bloody face and he looks IMO not unlike angry MoC!Dean or angry demon!Dean, I'm wondering if maybe that procedure Dean is under triggers some latent demon powers that he never got to use as demon Dean and he psychically tosses Ketch around the room because he's trying to kill Mary. Again fat chance that happens.

Another  thought I have is that Dean remembers going back in time and revealing to Azazel that he kills him in the future and then takes on the blame for EVERYTHING to give Mary redemption since some think Dean is really why Azazel got onto Mary in the first place and this is really entirely his fault because he tried to stop it from happening so it made it happen. Hmmm

Speaking of that procedure, my worst fear is that it is going to be used to make canon  Lemming's long standing view that Dean is nothing more than a killer at heart "It's in his DNA to be a killer" - Eugenie Ross-Leming from Blade Runners audio commentary.  I wouldn't put it past Dabb et al, to just make that canon by having Dean remember that he killed a human whilst not under supernatural influence.  Or GODS FORBID that Dean tried to do something terrible to Sammy as a little boy. I'm not being wanky here either.  I just really have a bad feeling  that nothing good is going to come from that for Dean. 

I worry about them trying to destroy Dean's heroic character more too. For instance, they retconned Dean neglecting young Sam so much  he had to have an imaginary friend. There is reason to worry.

[MysteryGuest]

Well, I would certainly hope that 13 years in, they wouldn't all of a sudden decide that Dean is not who we've known him to be for the past 12 years.  I know the writers play very fast and loose with the canon, but Sam and Dean are the heroes of this show, warts and all.  I really don't want some Dallas ending to this series.  Dabb, are you listening?

[CluelessDrifter]

59 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Walt? I checked IMDB and it is the same Walt that killed Sam and Dean for real in DSOTM. And talk about a dropped plot point. Like that should have been someone Dean or better yet Soulless Sam went after in s6, or even demon!Dean in s10 alas.

That's a peculiar character to bring back. Show, don't make that be someone Dean and Sam feel bad for being killed by the BMOL if there is any chance he's the bloodied hunter.  That fucker murdered them both. Although I would totally be on board him being an ally of the BMOL and Sam's face of emotion is that he remembered that he's one of the dudes that killed him and Dean, so he's flooded with memories and kills him "accidentally in the accidents don't just happen accidentally way in the battle with the BMOL. Ha, sure,fat chance that happens.

I think he's actually the hunter with a beard and vest (looked at some more recent photos of him), so he's with Jody and Sam as one of the hunters attacking the BMoL.  What a weird thread from the past to bring back.  Of course, since he is from when Supernatural felt like Supernatural, he'll most likely die.  That is what they've been doing with links to the past all season when they aren't changing them completely.

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I'm wondering about Ketch being tossed about the LOL. Given there is one picture of Dean with a bloody face and he looks IMO not unlike angry MoC!Dean or angry demon!Dean, I'm wondering if maybe that procedure Dean is under triggers some latent demon powers that he never got to use as demon Dean and he psychically tosses Ketch around the room because he's trying to kill Mary. Again fat chance that happens.

I've thought he's been quite MoC-like in some aspects all season, not in the kills department, but in the faking it to pretend like he's okay aspect.  And let's not forget that the MoC may have been removed from Lucifer, but the damage seems to have been permanent, because he's technically been evil since he was introduced in season 5, which was long after the MoC was removed.  Plus, Dean couldn't get the MoC back last year, because he was tainted by it.  Maybe there's something there, but I highly doubt it.  Just thought I'd give you some hope for the finale.

[Aeryn13]

I think the spell will pretty much be Dean going into Mary`s mind and making emotional appeals to her. I doubt it is supposed to reveal something about Dean himself. It`s just band-aid-redemption for Mary.  

Quote

Speaking of that procedure, my worst fear is that it is going to be used to make canon  Lemming's long standing view that Dean is nothing more than a killer at heart "It's in his DNA to be a killer" - Eugenie Ross-Leming from Blade Runners audio commentary.

After this Season where he barely could hold onto his gun, if he even found an action scene in the first place, fat chance of them trying to sell "killer". 

Walt and Roy are either gonna be part of the US hunter troup against the BMOL when Sam gives them a rousing speech of forgiveness and unity. Or they are gonna be killed by the BMOL.  

[AwesomO4000]

3 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

I worry about them trying to destroy Dean's heroic character more too. For instance, they retconned Dean neglecting young Sam so much  he had to have an imaginary friend.

I disagree. I took the rest of my answer to the "All Episodes" thread.

[ILoveReading]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I'm wondering about Ketch being tossed about the LOL. Given there is one picture of Dean with a bloody face and he looks IMO not unlike angry MoC!Dean or angry demon!Dean, I'm wondering if maybe that procedure Dean is under triggers some latent demon powers that he never got to use as demon Dean and he psychically tosses Ketch around the room because he's trying to kill Mary. Again fat chance that happens.

I wish you were writing for the show.  This would be cool.

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

.  Or GODS FORBID that Dean tried to do something terrible to Sammy as a little boy. I'm not being wanky here either.  I just really have a bad feeling  that nothing good is going to come from that for Dean. 

My biggest worry is that the procedure unleashes some memory that Dean long buried that showed us that Mary did take precautions and little Dean got scared and went looking for mom or dad and in doing so disturbed some salt line or devil's trap. 

[Aeryn13]

That would be really low, blaming it on a little kid that couldn`t have known anything. But if the inability to be in two places at once is blamed on him, it`s not out of the question. Still, since they are using an actual kid actor, they will probably refrain from being complete assholes to the character.  

I think little Dean will be in an "re-enactment" of the Pilot and will tell brainwashed!Mary how he saw her die, bla bla. Why that would wake her up is anyone`s guess.

[ahrtee]

My theories (or WAGs):  

1.  If you look closer at the pic of Lucifer holding the long red hair, it also looks like there are blood smears on nearby furniture  (though only small amounts, not enough to indicate a big bloody death).  I'd still be worried, EXCEPT:   (a) Rowena has that "come back to life spell" (though IIRC Luci knows about it and might be able to override it, and 

   (b) My theory is that Rowena was in the rat that (yes, I do believe) Crowley went into.  The rat came out in a room filled with people and showed itself deliberately to Crowley (not normal rat behavior), even before following his body out.  It might just be either bad writing (a sledgehammer hint to the audience)  but I think it might have been Rowena, either in person or just communicating through it, telling Crowley to "smokelessly" smoke in  (didn't she use a bird or something to follow Crowley and spy for her before?)  In any event, I'm guessing that Luci just killed two empty vessels.  

2.  Also per the pictures, yes, it does appear that Lady Whatsit is using Dean's mind to unbrainwash Mary.  My theory is that she's going to download Dean's memories of Mary to give her back her identity and remind her of their connection (thus the spoiler of YoungDean).   I can see Dean being desperate enough to do it, though I'm pretty sure he'd balk at giving her access to his adult memories and all the terrible things he'd felt he'd done, but I think they'd promise to stick to memories that specifically relate to her, even if not directly (as in, memories from after she died or things they learned later, like her deal with Azazel).  And even though IA it would be satisfying to have Sam confront her about that,  in this situation IMO Dean would be more likely than Sam to have deeper, more emotional memories and connections to her own memories that can get through to her and bring her back. 

However, since Lady T made such a point last week of telling Mary how badly John behaved after she died, I'm hoping for a surprise JDM in flashbacks from Dean's memory.   Even without JDM,  I'd love to have Mary see Dean's childhood memories, so she'll have a proper understanding of who they are and how they were raised.  And unless they do a complete retcon from childhood, I think those memories would show Dean taking good care of little Sammy and John, and it would be nice to see a reminder of that.  Fingers crossed, of course.   ( @catrox14, IMO this setup is designed to show how/why *Mary* feels guilty, not Dean, (and thus setting up a potential sacrifice on her part) so there would be no reason for them to dump anything new or retconned on him at this point.  Wishful thinking, anyway.)

And in rereading/rewriting all this, I think it would take an entire episode to hit everything that needs to be said, and I'm pretty sure the reality is going to be about 5 minutes and then she's fine, yup, I remember everything, I'm so sorry, I'll make it up to you by sacrificing myself to save you later, and now back to the BMOL...*sigh*  

3. Jody.  I desperately want her to live.  But I've never seen her actually *hunt* the way she seems to be in the pictures.  She looks damned grim.  That, plus the fact (as others have pointed out before) that Alex is in the guest list but not Claire makes me think that Claire gets killed and that's why Jody joins the fight so completely.  (Not that I'd particularly miss her, but I don't want more pain for Jody and Cas.)   

4.  When I saw Walt's name I also thought "huh?" but didn't get around to checking if it was the same actor (they do tend to re-use names a lot).  It was my understanding that whenever the boys were sent back from heaven (except that last time by Joshua) their minds were wiped, which I think would also mean that it would be wiped from the minds of whoever had killed them, or they would have continually been on all hunters' lists ("I killed them twice already!  They keep coming back from the dead!  They're either not human or have made some kind of deal!") so I'd be surprised if Walt remembered killing them, though Sam and/or Dean would, so they might not be thrilled at working with him, which would probably just confuse everyone (can you imagine them trying to explain to a roomful of hunters exactly why they were pissed?)

5.  About Mark P's comment that everyone is going to hate Lucifer after the finale, I'm guessing it's Cas he kills.  I don't think there'd be the same kind of fan reaction if he killed any of the other (beloved or not) characters, like Mary, Jody or Rowena.  However, since IMO Cas is needed for the nephilim storyline which will probably be a large part of next season, I don't think the death will stick.

JMO and YMMV, of course.  

[Idahoforspn]

13 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

That would be really low, blaming it on a little kid that couldn`t have known anything.  

 

This wouldn't surprise me. It would explain Jensen's radio silence. It is probably just me but he hasn't seemed excited about much this year at all and being so silent on the finale makes me wonder if he is pissed.

Edited May 14, 2017 by Idahoforspn
Spelling

[ZennyKenny]

All this talk about the finale being so emotional...

On the one hand, if they think I'm going to shed a tear over Mary's death, they are sadly, naively mistaken. On the other hand, if they think that J2's reaction to Mary dying can make me cry like a baby... yeah, that's pretty much 100% correct.

[catrox14]

28 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Walt and Roy are either gonna be part of the US hunter troup against the BMOL when Sam gives them a rousing speech of forgiveness and unity.

LOL. this is probably gonna be true LOL. 

1 hour ago, rue721 said:

nyway though, I don't really hold anything against Roy and Walt. It's not like they were committing murder for the hell of it. They're hunters and they justified themselves (pretty reasonably IMO) that they were hunting the "thing" that started the apocalypse. I mean, it sucks and isn't the choice I would make and blah blah -- but it was all business and not really grounds for a personal vendetta IMO.

They never said it had anything to do with hunting Sam to stop him from doing it again just that he had done it.  That's vengeance or frontier justice if you will. Even if they thought Sam was a "thing" which IMO was not implied here, Dean was not on Roy's radar. Walt wanted him dead because Dean would be coming after them for killing Sam. It's all about vengeance IMO.

Quote

 

WALT: You think you can flip the switch on the Apocalypse and just walk away, Sam?

SAM: Who told you that?

WALT: We ain’t the only hunters after you. (Walt pumps his shotgun.) See you in the next life.

SAM: Hear me out. I can explain, okay? Please.

After a pause, Walt shoots Sam. Dean jumps to go to Sam.

ROY: (shifts to follow Dean’s movement) Stay the hell down.

WALT: Shoot 'im.

ROY: Killin’ Sam was right but Dean…

WALT: He made us and we just snuffed his brother, you idiot. You want to spend the rest of your life knowing Dean Winchester’s on your ass, ‘cause I don’t. Shoot 'im.

 

[catrox14]

33 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

4.  When I saw Walt's name I also thought "huh?" but didn't get around to checking if it was the same actor (they do tend to re-use names a lot).  It was my understanding that whenever the boys were sent back from heaven (except that last time by Joshua) their minds were wiped, which I think would also mean that it would be wiped from the minds of whoever had killed them, or they would have continually been on all hunters' lists ("I killed them twice already!  They keep coming back from the dead!  They're either not human or have made some kind of deal!") so I'd be surprised if Walt remembered killing them, though Sam and/or Dean would, so they might not be thrilled at working with him, which would probably just confuse everyone (can you imagine them trying to explain to a roomful of hunters exactly why they were pissed?)

I'm not following what you mean here. It was revealed in the Asa Fox episode that it was known that Sam was possessed by Lucifer and that Dean supposedly died like 5 times. I'm not really seeing a reason for folklore about Dean dying 5 times if their memories were wiped after Walt and Roy killed them. IMO, that was just a plot point that the writers never bothered with again because they had to get to retired!Domestic!Dean who didn't hunt down God or Walt and Roy because ....promises to Sam.

I do think it's interesting that Dabb wrote DSoTM which was such a huge moment in the show only to bring back Joshua to kill him off and have Walt back who killed Sam and Dean working with Sam again. I think there will be more to this than meets the eye. 

40 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

 And unless they do a complete retcon from childhood, I think those memories would show Dean taking good care of little Sammy and John, and it would be nice to see a reminder of that.  Fingers crossed, of course.   ( @catrox14, IMO this setup is designed to show how/why *Mary* feels guilty, not Dean, (and thus setting up a potential sacrifice on her part) so there would be no reason for them to dump anything new or retconned on him at this point.  Wishful thinking, anyway.)

Man, I am now hanging my hat on this.  Please don't be wrong, @ahrtee!!!

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think little Dean will be in an "re-enactment" of the Pilot and will tell brainwashed!Mary how he saw her die, bla bla. Why that would wake her up is anyone`s guess.

It could be this. That would explain the crib scene. We'd be seeing it from WeeDean's perspective. They could also pick things up a few months or so after her death or maybe even as much as a year after her death. The kid actor is of course going to be different from the kid they used in the Pilot, so depending on where they pick up in the timeline, they either handwaving that and expecting the audience to do so also OR the flash back will be to a short time after his mother's death.

That said, and if that is the scenario they go with, I think it would suck and be sad that Dean, as he is, would not be able to get through to his mother-but that would fall squarely on her shoulders for never taking the time to get to know her adult children. Maybe the writers feel that this would be a start, though, and especially if Dabb's plan is to keep her around for S13, which I think it is. I think Dean's tears in the promo are likely his immediate emotion after coming out of the "spell"/mindfuck.

I'm not averse to seeing this at all and I'm sure that Jensen will gut me as usual in these scenes, but I DO fear that that's all that he and his character are really going to get out of these final two episodes. The badass heroics are going to go to anyone and everyone except Dean, IMO. I think it will either be Mary(as part of her redemption sl) or Lady Deadeyes(as part of her redemption) who will wind up killing Ketch. I will be extremely surprised if Dabb allows Dean that kill. I just can't see it happening and especially not if taking into account how the writing for Jensen/Dean has been since the midway point of this season. And Sam is going to be the one to lead the assault(AKA be the "General") with the other hunters, on the BMoL compound. Dean might possibly give him the okay to do that while he deals with Mary, but that will be the extent of his being any kind of a General. Or Sam might even step up and suggest that, too. This also has been the way of the writing, more often than not in the second half of this season. I think that Dabb's remarks in that one interview about both brothers being Generals was just to appease the Deanfans whom he knew were angry over how Dean was being written even at the time of that interview. If there's one thing I've learned about all of the showrunners on this show, it's that being a Lying Liar Who Lies comes easily to them because it's a whole lot easier than having to explain why they simply do not know how to write in a more balanced fashion/manner for their two co-leads.

I'm sticking with my spec that everyone dies and they all wind up in the Purgatory-like setting that, IA, is The Empty. I still think the Mystery Figure is Bobby because of those tweets, but I think it would be more interesting if it was Death or Billie to tie into the "cosmic consequences" part of Cas having killed Billie in complete and direct disregard of the blood oath between her and the brothers.

Edited May 14, 2017 by Myrelle

[ahrtee]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm not following what you mean here. It was revealed in the Asa Fox episode that it was known that Sam was possessed by Lucifer and that Dean supposedly died like 5 times. I'm not really seeing a reason for folklore about Dean dying 5 times if their memories were wiped after Walt and Roy killed them. IMO, that was just a plot point that the writers never bothered with again because they had to get to retired!Domestic!Dean who didn't hunt down God or Walt and Roy because ....promises to Sam.

I do think it's interesting that Dabb wrote DSoTM which was such a huge moment in the show only to bring back Joshua to kill him off and have Walt back who killed Sam and Dean working with Sam again. I think there will be more to this than meets the eye. 

I have to admit, I'd forgotten about the Asa Fox episode (I've only rewatched a few of this season's eps and can't remember any details about any of them, except the amnesiac Dean one).  But even in that ep, IIRC, the other hunters ostracized the one who'd accidentally killed Asa.  Imagine if he'd done it deliberately, even if he thought he was doing the right thing?  There could have been a whole "Hatfield/McCoy" battle between hunters on the different sides. :)

But since in DSOTM Dean told Walt and Roy that he'd "be pissed" when he came back, I'm pretty sure he would have done something to prevent it from happening again--or Walt would have peed his pants the first time he saw Dean alive again.  So I'm pretty sure the Disney boys didn't remember anything about it.   And Zach probably didn't want to have to bother returning them to earth every time some hunter decided they were dangerous and killed them (again) and so stopped others from hunting them.    

At the time, supposedly no one but the Winchesters knew about angels, and the angels wanted to keep it that way.  Once other hunters found out that angels were real *and had been saving the Winchesters over and over* (and no one else) I would think that would be enough to make them hunter legends, subjects of awe and respect, not fear that they were evil.  Again, YMMV.  

[MysteryGuest]

1 hour ago, Idahoforspn said:

This wouldn't surprise me. It would explain Jensen's radio silence. It is probably just me but he hasn't seemed excited about much this year at all and being so silent on the finale makes me wonder if he is pissed.

I'm thinking Jensen's life is a whole lot busier now with 3 kids to take care of.  I don't know that I would read anything into his not tweeting as much as before.  

[catrox14]

21 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

thought he was doing the right thing?  There could have been a whole "Hatfield/McCoy" battle between hunters on the different sides. :)

my head!canon is that would have been the plan if not for Sera taking over the reins and putting Dean on hunting time out for the start of s6.